February 7, 2006

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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February 7, 2006

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00:14: around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix Arizona this is the dividing line.
00:20: The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence our host is
00:29: Dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church this is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with Dr.
00:39: White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the
00:44: United States it's 1 -877 -753 -3341 and now with today's topic here is
00:51: James White Hey good morning welcome to the dividing line the last all -american dividing line for a couple of weeks hopefully we will be able to blog the schedule in fact my good brother
01:05: Roger has Roger is an organizer yes Roger knows how to organize things and so Roger sent me a possible dividing line schedule from from London and Scotland as to when we could do it and you gotta realize it's a seven hour difference so this one isn't too difficult to do but the nighttime one that doesn't work too well so we may have to change some times up and do do all of them in the morning at like this time so that it's only like six o 'clock over there something like that because probably not going to be staying up until midnight or something like that or whatever it is to do the the afternoon version of it but anyhow heading out to the
01:53: United Kingdom tomorrow morning I would appreciate of course prayers for the the ministry there and for Pastor Brazier and his family who get to have to run around with me all that time especially
02:10: Roger of course and most you may recall some of you may recall I got very very ill going over there last time
02:19: I am going to take every possible human precaution I even
02:25: I've yes I even have surgical masks in my back so if the person next to me sits down and is shaking with a fever or something you know we can do something about that but also for of course for my family back here and of course for a
02:44: Rich Pierce who continues working slaving away on the move really right now just all of the carpentry stuff that must be done the texturing of walls and drop ceiling and all that kind of stuff that needs to be done that he is doing aside from all his other duties so many things to to be praying about praying for looking forward to the opportunity of ministry there in the
03:12: United Kingdom looking forward to actually rehydrating a little bit how many days now are we at a hundred and ten
03:19: I think we're around a hundred and ten now maybe beyond that I've started to lose count we have set a new record here in Phoenix for days without measurable precipitation and believe me it hasn't even tried to precipitate at all it has not come close to precipitating since well for at least a hundred and ten maybe it's a hundred and twelve
03:43: I've forgotten how many days it is now someone needs to put up a website in place and start counting this down because the seven -day forecast is in the upper seventies and completely totally 100 percent sunshine clear skies as far as as the eye can see so I'm looking forward to getting over to England because as I look at the forecast
04:05: I'm going to experience precipitation a number of times while I'm there precipitation in the thirties and forties even which should be really really neat I'll get to rehydrate and come back to the desert in a couple weeks so anyhow all almost all completely totally packed up ready to go and ready to visit the
04:30: Saints over in in jolly England work on my accent again get it going
04:36: I know I haven't been using it as much as I should I apologize for that but we will we will try to be working on our on our accent and we're over there and especially the
04:47: Scottish accent because the Scottish one is so much more fun than just the English one so anyway I can hear the moans and groans even through my headset
04:57: I was the one thing about going to England of course is that you if you really really really like Mexican food like I do and love chips and salsa and things like that you're not really gonna get a whole lot of that in England spicy food is just not a major element of the of of the
05:22: British cuisine shall we say which is fine with me I I did just fine last time I was there but I decided to to give the wifey a call yesterday as she was coming home and said hey let's go get some
05:35: Mexicans so I can I can have some chips and salsa before I head over to to jolly old
05:41: England and so I went over and I got to the restaurant first and as I was driving over I had the radio on and I just happened it happened to be during period of time when the
05:58: Bible and Saman broadcast was on so I was just listening and and I don't know a minute out from my house a fella calls up and he says
06:08: I have a question about Calvinism and Arminianism so I started listening and I got to the restaurant before my wife did so I sat out in the car and and listen to the entirety of the presentation and at first you know
06:23: I I didn't I didn't hear any any Sonny and Cher things and so it at first it sort of sounded like well you know maybe there's there's been some improvement here and stuff so I thought we'd we take a listen to this call and and discuss it and then
06:43: I just happened to be listening to the Berean Call webcast from from the
06:51: Berean Call Dave Hunt and TA McMahon and I saw a a a the topic of the question asked of Dave Hunt and TA McMahon recently was were they secretly supporting
07:08: Calvinism well I had to I had to listen to that and it it ended up being a question about whether infants who die in infancy go to heaven in the process as we will play in the process
07:22: Dave Hunt clearly openly without without even
07:27: I think recognizing what he was doing denied original sin just no original sin infants don't die because of sin
07:38: I'm not sure why they die but they've committed no sin so they have no basis for being punished see because they've done they've done their wrong they're completely innocent and you're just like wow
07:48: Pelagius rides again well will any of any of Dave's big fans you know call him on that one well we'll play that and find out but let's let's first listen to this this question on the subject of Calvinism and Arminianism um question about Calvinism and Arminianism um
08:07: Hank is one side absolutely right and the other absolutely wrong because I'm kind of going back and forth and just just want some good solid answers well
08:17: I grew up in a Calvinist home and I was under the influence of that home for many years of my life even when
08:27: I did not want to receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord of my life whereby I walked according to the dictates of his will rather than my own but the influence of that home is with me to this day and has put me in good stead there wasn't a single time that I ever remember sitting down with my parents at a dinner table at a lunch table or a breakfast table that they didn't pray or read the
08:53: Bible and so I learned a tremendous amount even when I was in the state of rebellion so I have a great fondness for the
09:03: Calvinist tradition and the discipline that's often found within that tradition now up to that point you're sort of like good yeah that's that's good and of course on the program back in December of 2003 when
09:17: I was on there was also discussion about how in that Calvinist tradition
09:23: Dutch Calvinist tradition you know you sat in the exact same pew visitors weren't allowed to sit there and and sort of a slam on the old
09:32: Dutch non -evangelical perspective and stuff like that so you know but you know at first you're like okay well alright let's continue on having said that I think that what you really want to keep in proper a proper perspective at all times when you deal with the issue of Calvinism versus Arminianism is first and foremost to stay within the bounds of orthodoxy because there are problems whereby you can transcend the line or blur the line between Christianity and concepts that are distinctly non -christian for example
10:12: Arminianism can be anthropocentric and in its worst forms a man might well gain his salvation or maintain his salvation through what he does so there's a plagiarism form of Arminianism that gets you right into non -christian theology again yeah you know that very very true consistent
10:35: Arminianism well I don't know how you can have an inconsistent Arminianism that's not anthropocentric very much focused upon man and what man does and man's control of God's grace and so on so forth but again the slide from consistent
10:55: Arminianism into a Pelagian perspective yeah sure very easily seen in church history so on and so forth makes perfect sense.
11:05: With respect to what you want to keep in proper tension however is you want to make sure that you do not raise significant problems with regards to the nature of God or the nature of humanity in perspective to God for example how do you preserve
11:22: God from being the author of evil if you assert that God decrees that Adam would sin or he ordains that Adam would sin how does that make
11:34: Adam genuinely culpable for a sin and how does that preserve God from being the author of evil now of course those of you again who listened to the
11:43: December 2003 broadcast know what's coming here and that is the discussion of compatibilism which for some reason
11:52: Hank refers to as circumstantial freedom and libertarianism and the idea of the potentiality of evil of course my argument has always been and I don't see how it can be avoided if God created the potentiality for evil and God is not an open theist,
12:12: God an open theist, odd way of looking at things but if God knew in the creation of the potentiality of evil what was going to happen you're not accomplishing anything by by this shift in saying well we we don't wanna make him the author of evil because he decrees the existence of these things when when he creates we want to keep this just all you know the libertarian activity of man okay then we need to do what we tried to do on the program and that is look at Genesis 50 look at Isaiah 10 look at Acts chapter 4 and these places where you clearly have
12:49: God engaged in activities in decreeing activities in the situation with Joseph what you meant for evil
12:59: God meant for good same action God had intention man had intention God's intentions good man's intention is evil and all those things which if again if you listen to program
13:09: I couldn't get any answers on I tried repeatedly to get responses from both
13:16: Hank Hanegraaff and George Bryson and I was unable to do so as people listening to that program well know so you you know what's coming and you you know that what is coming really doesn't have an answer that is going to be offered in regards to well if God just creates a potentiality for evil but he knows what's going to happen how is that different then having a purpose in his creation and the use utilization of of means and and basing and grounding responsibility on the means rather than on some external factor to God's own so forth you know because ultimately
13:55: I think in true Christian or biblical orthodoxy we say God is not the author of sin we say that God created the potential for evil and that potential was actualized by humanity
14:09: I would also say since Adam all human beings have been created in such a way that they can respond to the gospel and to say that they are created in such a way that they cannot respond to the gospel again runs into a biblical problem because it flies in the face of passages like Ezekiel chapter 18 now he's going to utilize term here in a moment rewiring and he's using the term create almost as if again here's here's where we come into it somewhat of a connection of what we listen to from Dave Hunt and and that is instead of viewing man as the offspring of Adam and seeing the very clearly biblical teaching of the corruption of Adam's offspring so that the nature that Adam has as a fallen spiritually dead individual is what is passed on to his children that that's where death comes from so and so original sin and all things are related to that by talking about God creating men in this way it shifts the emphasis from the biblical terminology and allows this language he's going to use here in a moment of rewiring man as if somehow again totally unbiblical terminology there rather than dealing with the nature of man changing a fallen nature using using biblical terms like man has a stony heart has a heart of stone he has to have that heart of stone taken out and he must be given a heart of flesh that's that's biblical terminology
15:50: I don't know why it it wouldn't be used we certainly use it but those who promote libertarianism generally use philosophical terms or modern terms they don't generally use biblical terms in in their description of these things now the old
16:06: Ezekiel 18 canard again goes back to that passage where the people were refusing to listen to the call for repentance and doing justice and so and so forth because of the fact that they were saying well look we're already being punished for our our progenitor sins there's no reason for us to rebel because we can't get away from the the effects of the sins of the previous generations and so you have that one text being used to overthrow
16:35: Romans 5 and original sin and the entire discussion of Adam and his relationship to his offspring and and all these things that you have in clear didactic passages which again you know when you read the
16:48: Bible for all it's worth and to utilize sound exegetical principles the very same sound exegetical principles that I would say
16:57: Hank accurately uses for example on certain popular eschatological systems to demonstrate that they're not as sound as certain people say if that was to be applied in this area would result in a different a different reading and that's why again the issue of tradition comes up also
17:17: I think that you want to then maintain the sovereignty of God so here's the main issue here
17:23: I'd like some expansion sovereignty of God what does that mean?
17:29: What does saying God has libertarian free will in regards to grace mean?
17:35: What does that mean when we combine the true libertarianism for God with the biblical teaching that man is dead in sin and that that I am born in sin and since I'm I am conceived in sin that I am reprehensible in God's sight and that God is just to bring judgment upon me.
17:59: Why don't we put all that together and what you'll see then is well is reformed theology maintain the sovereignty of God the justice of God and genuine human responsibility now if you can do that within Calvinism then you're communicating your
18:18: Calvinism I think in a way that's biblically palatable. Now of course
18:24: I would immediately say it's my understanding and I would like to be wrong about this but it's my understanding that that last phrase about meaningful responsibility if I'm fair in what
18:39: I have listened to over the past couple of years that requires libertarianism you can't be a libertarian
18:48: Calvinist you can you can try to make up categories like that but let's let's be honest that doesn't work.
18:55: That's that requires a complete rearranging of the language itself but that's what we're facing.
19:05: It's definitely heady stuff and I'm reading all kinds of stuff about it I'm reading
19:10: Piccarelli's Grace, Faith, and Free Will right now and it's pretty deep and I'm kind of about halfway through it and my question also was what do you think about Norman Geisler's I think it's called
19:22: Free to Believe? I'm not familiar with that particular book that must be a new one.
19:29: Now I don't know about you but that's Chosen but Free, isn't it?
19:38: I mean he got the title wrong but I I think it's fairly clear it's a short title with yeah
19:45: I think that's as he put out a new book I'm not aware of that but Chosen but Free, I think
19:54: I've read that one yeah I think I read that one. Is there something that you could recommend to me?
19:59: I mean to my kind of Yeah, we have a number of different books available on the
20:05: World Wide Web at equip .org which deal with this issue which also would include
20:11: The Dark Side of Calvinism by George Bryson We tried to get
20:17: George to debate up in Salt Lake City but George didn't want cross -examination this time around so which is understandable given what happened the first time but you know we we gave it our best shot and it didn't fall it didn't happen now if it had just stopped here you know
20:33: I would have disagreed but you know it would have been a whole lot better than a lot of calls that I've heard over the past few years on this subject but it and it sounded like it was about to stop here this is normally where the call would have ended moved on to the next caller but okay and can
20:52: I just hang on and then they can maybe hook me up something yes absolutely just hang on hey thanks so much for calling in there's much more we could say about this but again the one thing you do not want to say
21:03: I think is that God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel in such a way that individuals are born who are doomed from the womb to certain death in other words they could not respond because there's no way that for example cows can fly they're created in such a way that they cannot respond right and therefore
21:24: God has to rewire them in such a way that they can respond well there you go that is of course a very inaccurate and unfair description of regeneration there's there's not a lot of folks
21:39: I think who would hear that that would that would even begin to understand what it was it was just said but there you have what we cannot say is what
21:48: Calvinism actually says and that is this doomed from the womb uh in other words we we can't actually exegete
21:59: Romans 9 and allow Romans 9 to say it Romans 9 says in its Old Testament background go back to exodus 33 do do the
22:07: John Piper thing you know you've never heard anyone on on BAM refute
22:13: Piper's work on Romans 9 or Calvin's work on Romans 9 or or anything else uh you've heard a lot of assertions you've heard some
22:20: Lenski thrown out there but you know that stuff is so easy to to to refute and has been refuted so many times um and so the idea is what we don't want to say then is that God from eternity past has chosen to elect a certain people into salvation and we don't want to believe the idea that there are those that he has chosen uh like in Esau uh to harden and to use to his own glory we don't want to believe that even though that's clearly what we see throughout the
22:54: Old Testament that's clearly what we see understood by the Apostle Paul we that's what we don't want to see and this rewiring idea again that there's the unbiblical terminology let's not talk about rewiring let's let's take it into biblical terminology let's look at Romans chapter 8 and recognize that Paul there says that the natural man is not able to do what is pleasing to God now call that rewiring call that reprogramming call it what you want you know come up with whatever translation you want what's it saying what are all those passages about biblical in in the
23:28: Bible about human incapacity what are they saying what what why is it that the divine initiative must come first in changing the hearts and minds of men that's the question uh and it's a question that never really gets addressed and God only rewires certain people which are the elect i .e.
23:51: God only raises to spiritual life his elect people which is again how many passages do we need to go over because shall we go through John 6 again was there was there a meaningful response after John 6 when
24:04: I was on the program no uh Romans 8 Romans 9 Ephesians 1 no no no no no you just keep going back to all these well if that's true you know the
24:14: Bryson thing if that's true then your mother might be going to hell and there's nothing you can do about it
24:20: I mean that that's the only type of argumentation which you know works fine for post -modernist
24:26: I would imagine but uh not for those who actually want to you know honestly deal with the text of uh then
24:32: I think is uh is a substantive problem right that's a problem I had because I just could not wrap my wrap my brain around that some people were created to be saved and then some people created to be damned
24:44: I just I just could not wrap my my brain brain around that concept it was just really kind of just blowing my mind a little bit and they're and they're all just innocent people and they don't that you know they're
24:54: God big mean God staying behind with a big gun you'd be a bad man you know ah the fellows from Louisville I hope you'll run into some good reform folks there can actually hook them up with some uh some good material well it's ultimately the difference between circumstantial freedom and libertarian freedom in circumstantial freedom you're made in such a way that you must of necessity act in accordance with your nature in compatibilism man as a creature has creaturely freedom and God as creator has the creator's freedom and man acts in accordance with his nature as the fallen child of Adam unless God in his grace then intervenes and raises that person to spiritual life takes out the heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh see how easy it is to describe biblically you can use biblical language straight out of proper context and everything um but that you know when you disagree with that that's why you won't use that kind of language in other words
25:55: God is sovereign but you are free to do what you've been wired to do now in libertarian freedom you have the power to choose and the ability to choose otherwise so there therein lies the tension in terms of the views right okay thank you so much you got it nice talking to you well uh you know libertarianism is the absoluteness libertarianism is the necessary theological attribute of all systems of works righteousness think about it you cannot have works righteousness that libertarianism that's why rome has defended it so strongly and that's why the very first written debate of the reformation was over that very issue between luther and erasmus nothing new there uh and unless you want to adopt philosophical systems that came about 1600 years after the time of the apostles that are designed not do not derive from from the text of scripture they are clearly forced on the text of scripture i'm referring to molanism here middle knowledge where god micromanages all the events of of history so that he places you in situations where you do exactly what he wants you to do but you do it freely see uh he he knows exactly how you respond every situation so he only puts us in situations where you will do exactly what he wants you to do so god is micromanaging every single aspect of your life so that you'll always do what he wants you to do but only because you freely choose to do so that's the whole idea of middle knowledge and this this uh this idea uh again where does that come from where did melina get it well melina got it because the reformation didn't want to actually deal with um with the biblical text eight seven seven seven five three three three four one uh we are that's that's it for that phone call and so we're gonna go on to the uh the dave hunt discussion of original sin uh but uh no we're gonna no we'll go ahead and take our break today as well and uh that gives people an opportunity if you'd like to comment on what was just said it's a very common perspective and it is promoted very frequently eight seven seven seven five three three three four one this will also be the last time that i'll be able to hear you overly well because realize that uh when we do the dividing line uh from uh from the uk i will be a caller in essence and it won't be quite as easy to hear you as uh as it is at the moment so uh if you have been waiting to get your comments in eight seven seven seven five three three three four one uh we're gonna take a break and be right back right after this the trinity is a basic teaching of the christian faith it defines god's essence and describes how he relates to us james white's book the forgotten trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the trinity is and why it matters it refutes cultic distortions of god as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a christian and amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the holy spirit the forgotten trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the trinity dr john mccarthur senior pastor of grace community church says james white's lucid presentation will help layperson and pastor alike highly recommended you can order the forgotten trinity by going to our website at aomin .org
29:31: more than any time in the past roman catholics and evangelicals are working together they are standing shoulder to shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the roman catholic church appealing this newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and lay people to question the age -old disagreements that have divided protestants and catholics aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language james white's book the roman catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in scripture the papacy the mass purgatorian indulgences and marion doctrine james white points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the christian life and the heart of the gospel itself they cannot be ignored order your copy of the roman catholic controversy by going to our website at aomin .org
30:46: and welcome back to the dividing line as i said i i saw this uh this question and answer session with dave hunt and ta mcmahon titled are you secretly supporting calvinism and so i i wanted to find out what that was all about in this regular feature dave and tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of the berean call here's this week's question dear dave and tom i think you guys backed into supporting calvinism without realizing it i heard a program of yours in which you said you believe that aborted babies and infants and children who die before reaching the age of accountability go to heaven it seems evident that such children could not be saved by their own volition or trusting in the lord therefore if they are saved then it could only be because as the calvinists say god did it in his sovereignty and simply for his own good pleasure or am i missing something in all this dave i'd like to take this but i'm going to talk about limbo afterwards so i'm going to let you start well it's not a matter of god deciding that you know these would go to heaven in contrast to others who are going to hell it's not a matter that he predestined these beforehand to go to heaven the fact is that they did not sin they died as babies it wouldn't be just to condemn to hell what what are they going to suffer for in hell what deeds have they done there you heard it folks i don't know how much clearer you can get i'm gonna play the rest of it of course because this then becomes a part of it but uh i don't know how much clear you can get they've they've done no evil they've done nothing wrong there's no reason why they should suffer um dave hunt does not believe in original sin that's there there you go now why in the world uh they die or anything like that i don't know but uh they didn't sin so uh dave hunt is unorthodox in denying the doctrine of original sin it's a functional part of his uh self -made theology and uh i had mentioned this years ago i had listened to a sermon that he delivered at a very large calvary chapel wearing a sport coat and a hawaiian shirt and which will definitely impact your theology no matter what you do but um and uh he had gone after the all have sinned passages and denied them he he very plainly took a pelagian perspective and uh that's that's just part and part and parcel and it makes sense i mean he has responded so strongly against calvinism that what are the areas that he's going to end up uh when you when you're pulling the other direction what are you going to end up doing well you're going to become unorthodox uh you're going to you're going to start emphasizing the opposite concepts and of course if the deadness of man and sin is part and parcel of what calvinists believe uh then you're going to go the other direction and the idea of man being dead the in inabilities of man outside of regeneration yeah you're going to reject all that stuff so there you go uh they did nothing wrong but they should be punished for that's one facet of this tom but it sort of skirts around the volition side of wanting to be with god forever seeking after him they certainly can't do that day well they can't learn to do that but how do infants learn to do that that was that's not that's not the point is it the question is if if you're taking their perspective on this issue of infant salvation which we've addressed before but if you're taking their perspective how is that an answer that that isn't an answer they can learn to what do you mean when they grow up what what what are you talking about the fact is what else are you going to do with babies they haven't sinned they haven't sinned but you didn't let me get to the second part of it okay oh i'm on your side by the way i'm sure you're okay right uh i'm just waiting to hear what you're gonna say secondly and tom i couldn't give you a scripture except shall not the judge of all the earth do right right and many other verses to talk about god being a just god but of course the writer is not asking whether this is biblical or not which of course it is because david remember when the baby died he said he will not come back to me i will go to him so apparently david believed that the baby was where he expected to go which would be with the lord because david was certainly a believer in the lord and look forward to the sacrifice of christ for his sins so that's not the issue i guess the issue is well is that a support of calvinism are we backing into calvinism when we agree with that we're eliminating it seems free will and volition because the baby doesn't have free will of volition and that is one of the arguments against infant baptism getting back to capitalism or the lutheran church the presbyterian church a baby has not made any choice and baptism is for believers okay but i believe i would love to hear dave debate some of some of the presbyterians that i've debated on this subject or will be debating on the subject it would be actually somewhat humorous i'm sure i mean this is theoretical but there's no question that it could happen this way what about a person that god knows if they grew up in that environment they would never hear the gospel then is it wrong if he allows them but he knows that if they did hear the gospel they would believe so that would be foreknowledge it talks about in romans that that would be foreknowledge like in romans um did they even read the refutation of their stuff it doesn't seem so i've had a lot of people ask you do you really think and i they they read this carefully and then check out and no no i've got no evidence of that at all because if they did then they would actually in these comments try to make some argument for their understanding of of a philosophical foreknowledge of counterfactuals and i'm sorry but ta mcmahon and dave hunt aren't into a discussion of counterfactuals that's just that that ain't ain't happening anytime soon and so it's just this no we're not gonna we're not gonna deal with that we're not but i'm gonna think about that we're just gonna dismiss it and move on from there because that's just the way things are not predestination but foreknowledge and god knows if that person heard the gospel they would believe so then he allows that person to die as a baby which probably would happen without some help and god holds his back his hand from helping this child to survive under these circumstances where it would die otherwise then god could allow those that he knew would accept christ growing up in an environment where they wouldn't hear the gospel he could allow them to die prematurely so that they wouldn't have sins for which he would have to punish them tom it's a difficult question and did you understand and i i think what he just said was maybe god will allow these children to die and won't save them so they can go to heaven before they sin because he knows that they would then uh uh sin and then he'd have to punish them see because they wouldn't accept jesus so why does he allow anyone that he knows is not going to accept jesus to live past the age of accountability and see remember his argument is if god could do it remember remember the very first time i had him on the program remember when we did the kpxq thing if god could save everyone i have to believe because he's a loving god that he will so we just heard dave hunt say well god knows who's going to not accept him if he knows that in that circumstance they're not going to accept him then he may let them die in infancy so that they won't sin so they can go to heaven didn't he just say that i wow but the bible does teach i think quite clearly that a baby that dies before it has committed any sins it goes to heaven jesus had some strange things to say about of course he said suffer or allow the little children to come unto me for of such as the kingdom of heaven but he also said their angels do always behold the face of my father which is in heaven now i've never heard anyone exegete the hat passage the bible indicates that if we went through hebrews chapter one it says he maketh his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire and they're sent forth to minister unto those who shall be heirs of the gospel so it seems that god knows of course he knows doesn't just seem he knows who would believe and who wouldn't believe that the angels are watching over those and it's in god's hands but this is not calvinism it's a big difference between saying well god predestined these billions of people to hell before he created them didn't give them a chance well wouldn't do any good to give them a chance because they wouldn't be able to believe this is what the calvinist teaches and he predestined certain others to heaven this is not what we're saying at all the other thing that always hits me you know we've mentioned many times in this program that god to be god must be perfect in all his attributes and one of his attributes is justice he's got to be absolutely just but another attribute is love not only is he just and fair but he paid the full penalty for our sins his love is incredible so you apply that to a situation whether it be unborn children aborted whether it be young children who die before the age of accountability and they're going to be in the presence of a god who's absolutely just and absolutely fair and his love is incomprehensible there you go uh right there um yeah buddy there you go i um um what can you say i you know when you when you're not accountable to anybody so you don't have to worry about little things like uh you know just checking original sin out the door and i know there's lots of plagians out there i've met a lot of assembly of god folks that are plagians there they directly deny original sin i remember a credentialed assemblies of god pastor uh just enough i don't know about 10 years ago we went around around he was oh he was really focused on on that he just just went after original sin like anything i'm not completely convinced dave or or ta there really even know what the doctrine is but they certainly don't believe it and uh the resultant mess is um well what you just listened to uh going on right there isn't that fun yeah yeah yeah that's a that's um that's very interesting anyway um let's uh go ahead and take our phone whoop did i lose phone call i guess lost phone call uh someone had asked about uh good books on manuscripts there are lots and lots of books on on manuscripts in fact i just added to my library uh library a whole section of uh of books on uh not books but a a whole uh bunch of manuscripts that have been placed in it they're not graphics it's actually text but but it's it's the text as it appears on the page it's most of my manuscript stuff is in that form uh my copy of codex bezicatabra gentius is in that form and uh reprint of sinaiticus is in that form uh of course it would be more fun to have the you know some sort of high level digital stuff but uh you know metzger has put out lots of books over the years i don't know how many of them are still in print there's some very large ones that have nice pictures of various of the most ancient manuscripts and where they come from and what their character is and things along those lines and they're not uh they're not overly overly um cheap they they cost some money uh but you can track them down i've got a number of reprints what what's really helpful to have is to have von soden uh trigellus uh to have those uh critical greek texts because sometimes they will list variants that ne27 ubs4 are not going to be listing and those can be purchased in reprint format as well so it takes a while to to collect a decent library of that kind of material i think the day's coming in you know right around the corner really where so much of that is going to be completely digitized and available to us right on our computers that uh it's truly truly amazing to consider that the new edition of bible works which i hope to be attaining um has a a new form of textual critical uh citation apparatus that's still in development but it's it's a newer uh perspective not not from the island uh folks over in in in germany so uh lots of materials that they're being they're being made available and more and more of them are becoming available electronically as uh as well uh let's see here let's go and talk with uh bob hi bob how you doing hi dr white i just want to comment on what i'm saying um it seemed to me what he was saying was that uh god was letting these children die uh so they could save them because he knew if he didn't they would grow up never hear the gospel right and so he's actually saying god is letting him to die so i can take him to heaven yeah that's absolutely incredible it seems to be what he was saying i like i tried to point out if if that's the the case if that's the nature of fore knowledge and the like then um why if if his one of his first arguments that he made against me was well if god can save someone because he's all loving he will in other words evidently if someone is not saved it is only because god after his best efforts failed to save them well if you now take the position he's taking now there would be no reason for god to not be able to save everybody because he knows what they're going to do and therefore uh he can just uh basically knock them off before they hit the age of accountability whenever in the world that is and um bring them all to glory so you know this is one of those i've said this before and people get all angry and stuff like but the fact the matter is uh dave hunt is not a part of a church where there is any kind of accountability for what he's teaching he can teach anything he jolly well wants the only people only person he's accountable to is dave hunt and so because of that he comes up with this stuff and people are desperately afraid especially in the quote -unquote counter -cult uh community desperately afraid to just stand up and say you know what this guy does not know what he's talking about he claims all this stuff he goes around teaching on stuff he should never teach about and people should be warned that this is this is what they're going to be getting when they uh when they get dave hunt people won't do it they're just afraid to do it i don't know but that seems i think you understood him i don't see any other words that could be used but remember remember something that i've discovered about dave hunt since what love is this came out if he were to be forced to deal with the implications of his statement he will never ever ever say i was wrong we have misunderstood him uh if he comes up with the exact opposite understanding we should have understood that that's what it was anyways because remember uh charles hadden spurgeon can say charles hadn't heard spurgeon uh dave hunt can say that he unequivocally denied limited atonement in a sermon where he was actually promoting it and then turn around and say well he contradicted himself well what does unequivocally mean okay and then he can he can publish a book in which he talks about the the first 15 chapters the book of acts being written in hebrew originally and our greek translations don't accurately represent that destroying the doctrine of inerrancy in the process and then when he's faced with that his ministry can quote from cultic websites in defense of that then when faced with that well it was all just speculation i really didn't mean it anyways so it doesn't matter what he says because there's no accountability so if someone says hey you're denying original sin no i'm not uh i'll just i'll just change the meaning of language it's an amazing thing to observe it truly is i think there's one other thing i want to point out he was quoting uh from matthew 18 10 about the little ones and their angels yes if you go back to verse six in the same chapter you'll notice those little ones who believe in jesus that are being referred to it's not some baby or infant yeah i don't know where he was going there to be perfectly honest with you when you try to connect matthew 18 and hebrews 1 together and get into some angelology thing going down there i why you know he's trying to say all all these children have angels well it's not referring to infants that passage it's referring to those right through the scripture says verse six already belief increases yeah right i understand all right hey thanks bob sure thing all right god bless bye -bye 877 -753 -3341 that's the number that david called hi david hello david how you doing oh i'm doing all right i had a question for you related to original sin pertaining to what the baptist faith and message 2000 had to say a little bit about the statement on man okay you familiar with that a little bit uh not if there's a uh if there's a controversy about it so did they make a did they change or something about it i don't know if there's a controversy about it and i was just kind of curious of what your take on this would be they have a comment under there i will go ahead and read a quick excerpt from it says by his free choice man sinned against god and brought sin into the human race through the temptation of satan man transgressed the command of god and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined towards sin therefore as soon as they are capable of moral action they become transgressors and are under condemnation okay i see what you're uh what you're referring to there when they they are only under condemnation when they reach uh let me see is that under man it is under there okay there it is yeah i'm looking at online here it's nice to be back on high speed internet not on dial -up i'd be waiting to the next hour for that um your comments about yes through the temptation of satan man transgressed the command of god and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined to sin i'm not sure how you inherit an environment um be perfectly honest with you that doesn't make any sense to me therefore as soon as they are capable of moral action they become transgressors and are under condemnation only the grace of god can bring man into his holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of god so uh what you're telling me is that this this line specifically therefore as soon as they are capable of moral action they become transgressors and are under condemnation that was is new i don't know if it's new or not i was just thinking about that and i came across that particular statement i thought all right since we're dealing with the topic of original sin it looks like and just just from reading it to me it looks like they're discussing in the age of accountability situation right yeah well yeah most definitely uh it does and it makes one wonder uh in light of what's said just uh two paragraphs down under regeneration in describing it is a change of heart wrought by the holy spirit through conviction of sin to which the sinner responds in repentance toward god and faith in the lord jesus christ right which uh is a holdover back to the olden days when the people who started this whole thing were reformed in their soteriology well you know let's face it when you're looking at uh at this document you're looking at a document that has been cobbled together um over a long period of time by it had one foundation and now it has a different context as far as the people who are in control of it and as a result um i don't know how you could defend uh what is being said here is being consistent with itself so it unfortunately because it is so brief does not provide the kind of context for example the london baptist confession of 1689 does that that can allow you to interpret it in such a way that that so you can understand what the framers intended and what it's actually speaking of today i mean i know that it was changed specifically to uh refute open theism and to make statements against open theism that's great that's wonderful uh but when you have a document that was originally uh crafted and it has the flavor of reform theology and then you have it in the soteriological sections being amended by those who come later it's obviously seeking to allow for a very wide and let's face it contradictory uh expression of understandings of various aspects of it so i the only way i could look at that phrase under section of man and go okay i can understand it in this context would be therefore as soon as they are capable of moral action they become transgressors and that term their transgressor would not be in reference to by nature in adam under the wrath of god but themselves transgressors of the law in other words as paul says without the law there's no transgression of the law type of a situation uh and so if the term transgressor there means specifically an individual who transgresses knowingly the precepts of the law then sure you have to have you have to be capable of moral action to be convicted of that kind of a situation of transgressing knowingly moral law that i could understand that i could go okay they're under condemnation for that if the purpose of the of the sentence is to say that until an individual reaches a quote -unquote age of moral accountability that they are not under condemnation and that death is not a part should not be therefore a part of their experience well then obviously that's that's not the case and i'd have to disagree with that but that's one of the problems is i don't i have no why no way of putting that into a context to be able to say it's this or that and that's i think it's purposeful i think it's purposeful because you know seminary professors are asked to sign a statement that says i will not speak against this particular document well the problem is who gets to interpret the document you know i mean uh when you looked at the section of regeneration it sounds to me like regeneration precedes faith right it looks monergistic it looks monergistic but there's all sorts of other stuff that doesn't look monergistic and so you know you have to take each sentence out and say well in this context and tweak it here and tweak it there that's the problem in having such a wide variety of of perspectives all you know the big tent type idea the problem is uh you know that that big tent allows a whole lot of stuff underneath it and it becomes confusing when people start asking okay what do you all believe well we believe this yeah but this person thinks it means this and this person thinks it means that and uh all sorts of confusion as as a result of it so uh you know if if that section means transgressors in the specific sense of purposely transgressing the law of god then yeah that's understandable if it is meant to mean the condemnation does not come until a person commits their first act of personal sin for which they have somehow passed some magical you know age in their life to where now they are in rebellion against god they weren't before uh no way but who's to know what that is you know that's that's that's the problem with the with something like this that's your point yeah all right thank you appreciate that all right all right thanks god bless bye -bye well yeah that's um that's interesting it's awful nice to have be back on high speed at the program for a while due to software issues i had to go dial up during the program and it was i i couldn't i would still be sitting here uh because we're in a neighborhood right now where they double team the lines the best you can get's about well i think i got 26 four ones but normally it's a 21 something and uh the net just isn't designed for that kind of stuff anymore but it's nice to be able to pull that up and yeah that's uh that is an issue and that's and thankfully once we get to our new offices it will not be an issue that i have to go dial up uh to be able to keep up with stuff or if it does i'm leaving that's as dollars to it and someone else will be doing the dividing line from that that that point in time on uh anyhow as i said uh this coming thursday uh no uh i i don't again i don't know how everything's going to work as to uh you know i get there thursday morning um i will have internet access lord willing i'll let folks know i'll try to blog if uh if we're going to be able to be doing something uh from england we'll do our best to be able to do so we will see you know obviously depends on how the flights are and things like that how i'm feeling things can go on with my host you never know so just keep an eye on the blog as to when we are going to be able to do our all british dividing line i hope you'll be joining us for that and not running for the hills thanks for listening god bless been brought to you by alpha and omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at p .o
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