Why Witness to Mormons? and Preorder of Potter's Freedom Book

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2nd Timothy 2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

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Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast the Apostle Peter commanded all

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Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence your host is dr.

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James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church if you'd like to talk with dr.

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White you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -1360 that's 602 -274 -1360 or if you're out of the

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Metro Phoenix dialing area it's 1 -888 -550 -1360 that's 1 -888 -550 -1360 and now with today's topic here's

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James White and good afternoon and welcome to the dividing line my name is James White on a warm but strangely cloudy

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Saturday afternoon here in Phoenix we can tell the summer is right around the corner because it's gonna get up to like 94 or 95 degrees today and if you're wondering no that's not the hottest it's ever been

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I remember riding in El Tour de Phoenix the first weekend in April and back in 1995 and I got to 104 that day so it's not as hot as it could be but it is a an indicator of what is to come have a number of things to share with you today those of you who were listening last summer heard the nine -part series that we did in response to a book that was mentioned the last hour here on KPXQ called chosen but free by dr.

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Norman Geisler and you heard our nine -part series in response to that book and at that time

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I mentioned to you that it was my intention to write a full -length response that response is entitled the potter's freedom and those of you who regularly pay attention to our web page and hit www .aomin

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.org know that this week we began taking pre -publication orders the book is at the point where it is at the printers

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I will see the blue lines for it very soon the blue lines are the the last version that I see before the printing actually takes place there will be an addition that we

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Lord willing will have in our hands to ship on May 15th so we're talking about about five weeks from now and then during the summer a second larger run is going to be made because there are some individuals that we have been told would like to write an endorsement for the work but they're traveling or they're out of the country or whatever it might be and so we're gonna do a initial press run and then a second edition will come out which won't be a change edition just to have other endorsements on it that will come out during the summer now you as I mentioned if you've heard our programs on the subject you know that we went rather in -depth in our response to the assertions being made in chosen but free and we did so because we believe the issues are vitally important we believe the issues are are fundamental to the the means by which we proclaim the gospel the substance of the gospel many of the issues that are addressed there are the very same issues that we deal with Roman Catholicism on in fact it was interesting just yesterday

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I did a radio debate in fact I need to apologize to those of you in the listening audience who have computers that I neglected last week while we were in Salt Lake City outside the the temple

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I neglected to remind everyone or tell everyone or just announced to everyone that we were going to be doing a radio debate on the subject of purgatory with Robert soon

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Janice of Catholic apologetics International who is also my opponent last year on the subject of the mass in the debate on Long Island will be my opponent this year on the subject of justification by faith and that took place on WMCA radio for two hours yesterday afternoon 2 to 4 p .m.

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Eastern Standard Time and thanks to one of our regulars on our chat channel and by the way

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I am in our chat channel at the moment as I am seeing a number of the regulars in there thanks to all the regulars in there from back

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Illinois way we should be able to have the real audio portion or recording of that debate available at straightgate .com

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very soon as soon as the folks are there able to bring it up and posted there if you have a computer you'll be able to go to where all our other materials are posted and listen to yesterday's debate with Robertson Janice on the subject of purgatory but in the process of doing that debate it struck me that in mistress and Genesis opening remarks in attacking the reformed position on the completeness of the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ and in defense of the

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Roman Catholic concept that a person must upon departure of this life with the temporal punishments of of sin still cling to their souls that mistress and Janice attacked the idea of the substitutionary atonement of Christ and of particular redemption and it struck me as I was listening to his speaking that this was one of the main issues that again we had to deal with in the potter's freedom because dr.

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Geisler likewise attacks the reformed concept of particular redemption and the logical result of substitutionary atonement

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I I could not help but thinking as I was sitting there listening to my opponents opening remarks that dr.

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Geisler could not provide the response that I provided to that particular kind of argumentation and so it is an important issue it's an it's an issue that is said over and over again is to be vigorously debated and yet it's not being vigorously debated in the sense of both sides accurately representing the other and being willing to come out and and place both perspectives on the table and and go at it from there we are certainly open to doing that but so far there has not been any willingness on the part of the other side to do so so right now

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I'd like to share with you some of the responses that we have gotten to the pre -publication manuscripts of the potter's freedom we have been sending out a number of pre -publication manuscripts to scholars and ministers

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I have sent many electronic versions to individuals via the internet and Calvary Press who's publishing the book has sent out numerous pre -publication manuscripts to scholars all across the

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United States and the responses have been absolutely overwhelming and I think this is important for two reasons first of all

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Calvary Press is not as large as the publishing house that publishes chosen but free which happens to be

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Bethany house publishers which also publishes most of my books irony of all ironies but at the same time there is of course the situation where people are going hey look

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Norman Geisler is a great scholar and Norman Geisler has written a book and therefore it's obvious that Norman Geisler would always do his homework and would always be accurate and therefore why in the world would someone who is unknown like James White try to respond to someone like Norman Geisler and therefore having a broad band of scholarly and ministerial endorsements for the book has been very important to me and I'm very very thankful that we have that exact kind of response those of you who have access to the internet you will find all of these endorsements at our web page prominently displayed there there's a link directly from the main page to the text of all of them but those of you who do not have access to them

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I think might find the comments of people other than myself you've heard my views you know my views are but to find out that these are the views of many others from a broad spectrum of positions might be helpful as well for example

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I was exceptionally pleased to receive the following from Douglas Wilson many of you know

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Doug Wilson he's the pastor of Christ Church in Moscow Idaho is the editor of the credenda agenda magazine and he wrote in response to the

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Potter's Freedom quote some time ago I had the opportunity to hear a tape of dr. Geisler presenting his understanding of moderate

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Calvinism the errors in the tape were simply breathtaking and so I was very glad to hear that James White had undertaken a book -length response to dr.

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Geisler's this response is outstanding the Potter's Freedom is firmly pointedly and charitably written for someone of dr.

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Geisler stature to go into print with his misunderstandings was simply inexplicable the easy thing would have been to simply let the whole thing go in an embarrassed silence but in this book

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James White has assumed the role of a biblical friend to dr. Geisler it deserves a wide reading and I really appreciated the the assertion there toward the end the role of a biblical friend biblically it would be unfriendly for someone to not respond when someone of dr.

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Geisler stature has made the kind of mistakes that have been made in chosen but free Maurice Roberts is the editor of the banner of truth magazine some of you may get that magazine it's a he is in Edinburgh Scotland in the

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United Kingdom and his response upon reading the freedom is with great penetration of argument and in a manner reminiscent of Luther demolishing

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Erasmus James White grinds the semi Pelagian ism of dr. Geisler to find powder not in the spirit of triumphalism but knowing that all

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Arminian ism is as hostile to the true gospel as it is friendly to a reviving

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Roman Catholicism strong words dr. Robert Raymond emeritus professor at Knox Theological Seminary in Fort Lauderdale the author of a new systematic theology the

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Christian faith it just came out about a year and a half ago from Thomas Nelson a very interesting work has written the following the reformed community has given

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Norman Geisler a free pass for too long with respect to his pronouncements on God's sovereignty and free will

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James White's books the book the Potter's freedom is the much -needed antidote to his flawed and failed attempt in typical to mystic fashion to synthesize what cannot be synthesized as soon as he insists that God's grace works synergistically on free will and that the one condition for receiving grace namely faith is logically prior to regeneration pages 233 to 234 in the

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Potter's freedom he falls away from the thought of the 16th century reformation and stands in concert with the synergism of Rome it is high time that he who has warned the members the evangelical theological society to be where human philosophy should heed his own warning and listen less to Thomas Aquinas and more carefully to Holy Scripture now one of the endorsements that I found most interesting we ended up because of the length of it turning into a preface for the book and that was from my friend and I admit that he

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I confess and I'm gladly open in confessing that he is my friend and that is

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Philip Johnson and that's Philip R Johnson who is the executive director of grace to you grace to you is

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John MacArthur's ministry he's an elder at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley California and Phil Johnson has written the following a blurb on the back cover of Norman Geisler's chosen but free both that is the definitive work on the relationship between divine election and human choice one would not have expected anything less from a seminary professor of dr.

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Geisler stature and reputation unfortunately chosen but free as a disappointment more than a mere letdown actually it is a stunningly inept treatment of the subject it undertakes dr.

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Geisler manages to misrepresent his friends and foes alike he utterly mangles the doctrine of divine sovereignty election and free will and the process he obscures and redefines the historical positions of both

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Calvinism and Arminianism the reader who has the regrettable persistence to follow dr.

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Geisler the last page of his work is certain to be hopelessly befuddled at the end of the effort the fact is if dr.

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Geisler were not a teacher of such stature there would be no reason at all to pay any attention to his book it is a bad book by any measure nevertheless it is obvious the book is having a widespread impact among evangelicals especially lay readers hardly a week goes by that someone doesn't ask me about Geisler's book and especially

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Geisler's fatuous claim that the position set forth in his book deserves the label moderate Calvinism that's why

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I'm very grateful for James White's careful patient and thorough response to Geisler in the potter's freedom dr.

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White meticulously unravels the near hopeless tangle Geisler is made of these doctrines skillfully employing both scripture and his solid grasp of historical theology to make the truth unmistakably clear in answering

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Geisler dr. White has produced one of the finest explanations of the doctrines of grace and the sovereignty of God that has seen publication in recent years

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I hope this important book will reach a wide audience and I am very thankful for Philip Johnson taking the time he is a very busy man he wrote that in between being in India and Europe that's what

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I that's what I call traveling around just a little bit he's a very busy fellow and that's what that's what he was doing one that's

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I think many people will find interesting is dr. Erwin Lutzer the senior pastor of Moody Church in Chicago who wrote many of us who have otherwise profited from the writings of dr.

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Norman Geisler have been grieved by his hapless attempt to harmonize Calvinism and Arminianism with the skill of a surgeon dr.

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James R. White dissects Geisler's arguments and reveals them to be based on convoluted thinking inconsistencies and misinterpretations of scripture

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I pray at this book shall have a wide audience not just as a definitive rebuttal to Geisler but also as a helpful exposition of the

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Calvinism Arminianism debate there are many others that are on the list there are 26 endorsements currently listed on the page beginning with Jay Adams from Westminster Seminary in Escondido Bill Askell who's the chairman of the board the

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Southern Baptist Founders Ministries dr. Joel Beakey the president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary Jay Ligon Duncan the third who is an adjunct professor at RTS in Jackson Mississippi Jim Elliffe the president of Christian Communicators Worldwide Kenneth Gentry from Bonson Theological Seminary wrote

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James White's The Potter's Freedom is a modern antidote to Arminianism his devastating rebuttal to Geisler's chosen but free as a clearly expressed logically coherent biblically faithful alternative to a theology which halts between two opinions

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White not only effectively presents the case of the absolute sovereignty of God but demonstrates Geisler's tendency to faulty research partial citations and fallacious argumentation if you desire to better understand the ways of God with man this is the book for you we also have endorsements from Jonathan Gerstner John Gerstner's son who teaches at Knox Theological Seminary George Grant many of you may have read some of his works

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S. Lewis Johnson the former professor at both Dallas and Trinity Nelson Klusterman who is professor of ethics and New Testament at Mid -America

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Reform Seminary pastor Fred Malone some of you have read his book as well

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Joel Naderhood Dr. Joseph Morecraft Joe Neeson and I'll finish with just this one and that is

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Dr. Tom Nettles from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville Kentucky who has written

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James White's response to Dr. Geisler's chosen but free arises from a personal knowledge of Dr. Geisler and an appreciation for his stance for truth and his positive impact on the broader evangelical community this sincere appreciation however does not cause him to downplay the seriously flawed presentation

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Geisler gives of the perennially and universally important issue of divine determination and human responsibility he interacts carefully with Geisler's philosophy as hermeneutics as specific interpretations his polemical methodology is understanding of reform thought and his personal stance on the issues endemic to this question

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White's work not only is an incisive and in my opinion decisive response to the specific fallacies of Geisler but provides a positive exposition of the issue that would be valuable even apart from its polemical context its theological and philosophical sophistication does not detract from the profundity of pastoral theology that informs every chapter and so we are very very thankful as I said

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Joseph Piper has sent sent us an endorsement he is the president of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary all of these can be read at aomin .org

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the opening page has a picture of a the cover of the book which I am very thankful Calvary Press has done a tremendously good job and you will see there the forward to the book we're very thankful to announce has been written by R .C.

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Sproul Jr. and so if you add R .C. Sproul Jr. in there that's 27 I guess we should count count a forward as a as an endorsement don't you think

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Rich I think that sort of flows along yeah you say so okay we are taking pre -publication orders that means you can get your order in on the website and also by calling 602 -973 -0318 during regular business hours which are posted on the website but if you'd be calling you wouldn't have access website anyways so it's basically one to five except mornings on which days again whatever you've got a microphone right there you can you can you can talk to me

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I mean they're gonna be talking to you aren't they this is I mean this is how Rush does it isn't it well hi

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Rich hi one to five Monday through Friday is the safest way to go you know if I'm not back in the print shop printing tracks for us or printing tracks you've been why would you be printing tracks well first of all

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I've got a printer printing press and I'm not afraid to use I'm not gonna touch that with a 10 -foot pole because I could make some comments about the first attempts we made on the printing press you weren't afraid to use it but the results you know what

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I can say about that but no actually you've been cranking out the tracks big -time haven't you yeah yeah

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I've I've been doing some design work as well and we're getting ready for is it next weekend it's next weekend starting it starts this coming

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Friday this coming Friday the 14th oh that's right this this coming Friday you look somewhat shocked by that it is sneaking up fast no it's not sneaking up it's gonna run us over like a freight train but well

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I'm I'm gonna be ready I'm gonna have tracks out of that printing press and they're gonna be the best -looking tracks that I've ever done well there's a lot of folks listening that are gonna hold you to that I know but actually my feet have been held to that fire yes like you print these tracks and you put all this work into it and these volunteers come walking up going you know

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I just read this and there's this problem right here boy this is this image on the front was a real evil and maybe you shouldn't do it so you know

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I try to use my imagination when I do the graphics and stuff and I kind of you know rethought some things and then you immediately tell them well join me in the print shop and then you can have input on this too but indeed actually of course we're talking about the

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LDS Easter pageant and we will have you're doing is Mormonism Christian this week is Mormonism Christian a test for the

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Aaronic priest okay I'm doing that one as well and then I'll also be doing three new right wire tracks well actually it's two tracks and in one one piece that we're gonna use the ministry but I wrote two new tracks and they're just they're really basic tracks there is single a single basically cardstock type sheet one of them is a resurrection of an old one that we used to use out the

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Easter pageant called this is not a program and then we have a new tract on James chapter 2 did the

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Apostle Paul and the Apostle James have a contradiction regarding James chapter 2 and Romans chapter 3 and things like that and those are single single they're not folded over and like that's a single thing will pass out and that starts this

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Friday so you need to have all that stuff done make it quick yeah absolutely but we'll be ready there's no question about it so in the mornings in other words if the phone rings and you're in the middle of something you don't necessarily worry about grabbing the phone it depends on the situation if the phone if I have the do not disturb button on I don't hear it at all and so but I try to get to the phone as much as I possibly can because I know that folks oftentimes when they do call it's usually for important reasons right and then one to five that is now of course

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Arizona time is now changed so that's one to five Pacific Standard Time we're now in the

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Pacific time zone or whatever you know how all that works so people listening on the internet need to realize that that can sometimes change and so well thank you very much mr.

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Pierce for joining us there for a second I like you're going away or anything but actually I did have another subject to address today and I have been trying to maintain a connection here with the internet chat room so that people could talk to me

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I'm just now managing to get back in sort of hard to do that and to talk all the same time but if you'd like to ask some questions maybe of what

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I've mentioned or mention in what I'm going to present here you can do that in our worldwide chat room process polygon on the internet there are instructions on how to get in there on our web page at a omin org hopefully next week

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I'll remember to install a well instant messenger which will help as well and of course rich Brando that fellow from Salt Lake City has the suggestion tell rich to print the men is not

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God tracked the problem is he misspelled the word track that's a TRCT there brando just want you to know anyways

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I've been picking on him all day and he'll tell you that it's it's been really really bad

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I'm not sure why I'm doing he may never speak to me again speaking of which a number of months ago

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I shared with you a dialogue that is found in an official LDS publication called achieving a celestial marriage and I'd like to do and the rest the program today is to share with people the reason why it is that starting this

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Friday there will be volunteers from Alpha Omega Ministries standing on the corners outside the

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Mesa temple in Mesa Arizona and in fact next week Marty Minto will be doing his program live from the

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Arby's at Maine and Hobson in Mesa Monday through Friday next week two hours live he's gonna be out there sitting out front of the

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Arby's and I'm sure I'm gonna be on the program a good bit next next week and we're gonna be talking about Mormonism we're gonna be talking about what we're doing and I'm going to try to force

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Marty to stay and pass out tracks with us at least one of those nights I want to see him track

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I want to see I want to see it happen to I want to see him deal with Darl Anderson no

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I don't want to see any of us have to deal with that but I want to see I want to see him stand there at 915 when the thing lets out and stand there at corner one we need to put him right behind the fire yep yep yep yep that's exactly right and so I'm if I doubt

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Marty's listening to us but maybe someone can let him know that the official invitation and if we have to call it a challenge we can call the challenge has now been given that it's one thing to sit behind a microphone

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Marty it's another to stand behind fire hydrant so come on out

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Marty and join us we'll hand you a stack of tracks and and let you talk to anybody who comes along and you know

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I'm not sure how many well you know Marty in a former life was a full -time police officer and police officers are not accustomed to people looking like right through them like they're not there so that might be a new experience for for Marty but anyways we are gonna be out there and it used to be six nights it used to be

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Monday through Saturday and then about 10 years ago they went to five nights and now this year they're going to seven nights and I'll tell you what folks

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I'm exhausted by the end of five nights I'm hoping that having two nights off and being able to recuperate a little bit is gonna help with that but I'm gonna be exhausted the end of seven nights and I've been doing this for 17 years for 17 years one week out of my life is spent standing outside and talking to people and I'll tell you it's always been this way but it's even more so this way now people look at you and they go get a job get a life don't you realize you're wasting your time out here and the question really

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I think that we all have to to ask ourselves is why do we do this why do we do this is there really a necessity to be out here sharing with the

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LDS people passing out literature debating doctrine at times yes proclaiming a gospel that these folks by and large find to be very very unusual and very very strange why are we doing it

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I mean if you just sat down and watch the presentation it's a nice presentation it's very well done very well acted very well presented and other than a few minor little things you wouldn't see much that would cause you to go wow that's really weird in fact if you show up early as most people do if you show up between 6 and 8 p .m.

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and I guess they start the music I forget exactly when they start the music but they start playing music before you get there and the music will sound just like what you'd hear at a

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Christian church in fact I've heard songs like holy holy holy or it is well with my soul instrumental versions being played over the speakers when you come and it's specifically meant to make you feel like you're well you're just about amongst a bunch of a bunch of Christians that's all so the question

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I have is should we even bother doing what we're doing shouldn't we just leave well enough alone shouldn't we just say you know what we live in a society where tolerance is considered to be a virtue and therefore why can't we just let things go well

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I'd like to share some things with you after we take a break and I'd like to ask you to participate with us 602 -274 -1361 888 -550 -1360 we're heading out to the pageant should we be bothering that's our subject today on the dividing line we'll be right back that's called hot bumper music every time you hit that thing

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I just about ripped the headphones off my head or they just about fall off we're talking about should we evangelize the

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LDS people and you know one of the reasons that I'm addressing the subject aside from the fact that the

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Easter pageant begins this week it normally would have begun a week from this Tuesday but it's starting a little early this year one of the reasons

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I'm addressing this is this past week I was sent comments from a scholarly discussion a panel discussion of scholars regarding Mormonism now

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I always get a little bit scared when when scholars have panels to discuss issues because it has become my experience sadly that many of these panel discussions are undertaken by individuals who have never stood in front of a group of LDS people and attempt to explain the gospel of Jesus Christ and maybe

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I'm wrong maybe so like to explain me where I've missed the boat but it seems to me that individuals who live in ivory towers who have never gone out and have never shared with a group of LDS young people have never stood with an elderly

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LDS man who has been a Mormon his entire life have never spoken with an

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LDS wife and her children whatever it might be really isn't in the best position to pontificate upon the proper and best means of evangelizing

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Mormons and yet I was forwarded the discussion that had taken place and basically they're individuals who have been making quite a name for themselves in the quote -unquote scholarly community who are continuing to go about and basically say that everyone who's been on the front lines witnessing to Mormons for quite some time now is doing it all wrong and that in fact if you take the official teachings of the

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LDS Church as being representative of the future beliefs of Mormonism you're wrong that the only thing you should bother responding to is that which is being produced by the

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Foundation for ancient research in Mormon studies known as farms and those individuals involved in what is called minimalist

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Mormonism and that are that that would include LDS scholars who because of their knowledge of Protestantism and Protestant beliefs de -emphasize certain elements of Mormonism that are the most offensive to any person who believes in the

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Bible and believes in historic biblical Christianity and so in light of that in light of the scholars who would say that we cannot be confrontational that we should not be out there doing we're doing passing out tracks and and sharing the gospel with people

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I simply turn us to what is still continuing to be used as the temple preparation manual the student manual for those who are preparing to have a celestial marriage which of course is the highest and most sacred ordinance in the

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LDS Church and here in this manual which you can go down to the

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LDS bookstore and pick up copyright 1992 corporation of the president of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter -day

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Saints right at the beginning this isn't hidden somewhere in the back this isn't in special pages that you have to have a particular code to be able to get into it's not like on one of those

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CDs where you have to break the enter a certain thing to unlock it right here on the very first lesson we find these words and before I read that you're looking at me like you needed to talk to me

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I guess not okay hey you know Rush sits there and talks to people all time nobody cares it just it just shows people that we're actually alive that we're actually here we're not on tape you know that type of thing so we can do generally though they don't get on the air and talk back to him you can sort of hear him in the headphones which means rushes have deaf because you can hear it blaring out of the earphones you can

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I've always wondered about that isn't that amazing you know I it wouldn't I hit the button you can't hear that no the microphone

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I say something to I just confuse and confuse you because you well no it does yes that's very true well anyways let me read this to you and I think this will answer the question it'll answer the question should we evangelize

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Mormons points to ponder God became God by obedience to law it was late afternoon as we sat in my office but I felt the time had been well spent he sat silently now obviously contemplating the ramifications of the things we had been discussing we had talked of God of how he had become

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God and of what that meant in terms of our own exaltation finally he spoke what is this law of exaltation of which you keep speaking well it involves the whole of the gospel law everything required of us by God is associated with this law but the major crowding point of the law which man must obey is eternal marriage therein lies the keys of eternal life or is the

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Doctrine and Covenants puts it eternal lives in other words an eternal increase of posterity then what you're saying is that God became

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God by obedience to the gospel program which culminates in eternal marriage subtitle through obedience to law we can become like our father in heaven conversation continues yes do you realize the implications of this doctrine as far as you are concerned

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I think so if God became God by obedience to all the gospel law with the crowning point being the celestial law of marriage then that's the only way

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I can become a god right and it is the law that assists us in reaching that potential it tells us what we must do to gain the ultimate freedom in fact it is by obedience to law that we have progressed to our present position you mean we have always been governed by law always you are an eternal being you were never created and you cannot be destroyed but you can advance progress and develop by obedience to law then

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Hamlet's question to be or not to be is not the question right not in the ultimate sense at least order means law and that law is the law of the celestial kingdom any who come under that kingdom must obey that law but I thought godhood meant freedom if I have to do things to become

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God am I really free oh you have got it wrong it was the Savior who said if you continue in my word that is obey the law you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free

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John 8 31 32 so by obedience to law we learn truths by which we become free but not free from the law can you see that I think so I can be a god only if I act like God exactly right can you imagine the state of the universe if imperfect gods were allowed to spawn their imperfections throughout space if beings who did not have law under their subjection were free to create worlds

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I guess that would be pretty disastrous but I'm not sure I see why celestial marriage becomes the crowning apex of this progression marriage doesn't seem directly related to the creation of the universes oh but don't be limited by your mortal perspective

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God himself has declared by his own reasons for existing remember he said for this is my work and my glory

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I see his purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man which involves giving birth to spirit children and setting them on the road to exaltation and if that is to be done you must have an exalted man and an exalted woman exactly an exalted man a woman who have been joined together in an eternal marriage if this man and woman were obedient to all gospel laws except celestial marriage what would be the result now they still could not be gods now

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I understand celestial marriage is the crowning ordinances of the gospel right

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I said with a smile and with that comment I think we can end the discussion pages four and five achieving a celestial marriage student manual that is what a person reads as they prepare themselves as they prepare themselves for the temple ceremony of celestial marriage up above that entire discussion there is a summary given

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God was once a man who by obedience advanced to his present state of perfection through obedience and celestial marriage we may progress to the point where we become like God well there are those who say that's just not being emphasized anymore let me ask you something if the highest performance of the

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LDS person the highest law of Mormonism is celestial marriage and combine that with the fact that Mormons do not discuss outside of their own community what takes place in the

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LDS temple then should we judge on the basis of what we hear and see in commercials what we hear from the nineteen and twenty -year -old

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Mormon missionaries or should we judge on the basis of what the Mormons themselves teach their converts within their church as they're brought into the very heart and soul of the religion that is the question that I would have to ask and I think it's very obvious that we need to allow the

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Mormon Church the officials that Mormon Church to define things now some might say well wouldn't you like to see happen to Mormonism what has happened to the

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Worldwide Church of God those of you who are not aware of it the Worldwide Church of God Armstrong ism as it was once known has undergone a radical transformation the teachings of Herbert W Armstrong which were anti -trinitarian and did not contain the gospel of Jesus Christ that church has undergone what they themselves call a reformation and in fact last

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May I had the distinct privilege of speaking for a number of hours in the

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Long Island congregation of the Worldwide Church of God on the doctrine of the Trinity teaching individuals who once denied the doctrine of the

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Trinity and held a view that contained many similar concepts to Mormonism in fact that the

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God family idea about the doctrine the Trinity and it was quite a privilege and in fact to the first place that I speak this coming

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May and by the way I've posted a schedule of all my speaking engagements what I'll be speaking on on our website if for those of you in the

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Long Island New York Connecticut area New Jersey things like that and the very first place

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I speak I arrived late Friday night and early Saturday morning I'll be back at the

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Worldwide Church of God speaking on the fundamental Christian doctrines what defines the

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Christian faith and so here's a here's a situation where a tremendous change has taken place and people say wouldn't you like to see the same thing happen in Mormonism well of course

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I would but there's one problem the Worldwide Church of God and its theology was such that the leaders today have been able to admit that Herbert W.

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Armstrong was wrong but Mormonism to remain Mormonism would have a hard time saying that individuals such as Brigham Young and Joseph Smith and the leaders of the church up until very recently were in fact preaching a false gospel and presenting a false

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God and so there are others who would say well we should encourage them to maybe adopt a little more

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Orthodox view of God what is a little more Orthodox view of God I'd understand exactly how that works what do you think 1 -888 -550 -1360 602 -274 -1360

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Martin from England is online so we'll talk to him in a moment but you also can get online at those numbers after we take a break here on the dividing line discussing today evangelizing the

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LDS people we'll be right back the dividing line my name is James White and before we go to our callers online someone in our worldwide chat room with the

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Nick Bobby 45 has asked the question where does the gospel teach the

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Trinity and that was a question is listening on real audio right now and of course

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I would differentiate between saying that the gospel which can be summarized most closely as the work of Jesus Christ his death burial and resurrection our union with him the perfection of that work most differentiate between the gospel the doctrine the

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Trinity but I would say that you cannot have a gospel without the doctrine of the Trinity that is if you do not have the father who in eternity past decrees the salvation of his people the son who becomes incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ the divine

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God man who as an infinite person takes on the sins of his people lives a perfect life in our place so that our sins are laid upon him his righteousness is imputed to us and then a divine

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Holy Spirit who is sent to apply the benefits of that worked lives of his elect people who brings about regeneration who infallibly communicates saving faith and repentance to his people and who personally testifies to us of our sonship in Christ the gospel would not exist without a triune

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God and the gospel is clearly presented to us in scripture the doctrine of the

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Trinity is clearly presented to us in scripture that's why I wrote a book entitled the forgotten

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Trinity that goes to the biblical evidence for for that doctrine and the fact that if you believe in sola scriptura if you believe that the scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith you must be a biblical

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Trinitarian you must end up denying some element of the biblical revelation to deny the doctrine of the

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Trinity now you know what it would be really interesting to try to do rich it would be really interesting to try to put both of these fellows on the air at the same time so if I go like this and say hi

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Martin and then if I go if I can hit to now rich hey silly

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Brit you there okay now I now

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Martin you're in England right that's right yeah okay now is there anything you can do to get hold of your government to take this other guy back to England with you yeah but they're sneaking back in you know we thought we won and then we've then we've got this fellow here now seriously everyone needs to understand that the reason that I can insult is like this is because of the fact that now what do you want me to call you

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CDS you can call me Colin either Colin or silly Brit either okay well

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Colin here is a regular in our chat channel and in fact I'm watching everybody in the chat channel going haha you know that stuff but Colin is in there all the time and so we we make comments about to England all the all the time for him

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I want to put you both on the same time so you so everybody could could hear this these British accents they're just I just love them you know the

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Queen's English and an American English or whatever you want to call it are really starting to diverge from each other enough that I think within 10 -15 years we want to be able to talk to each other yeah you know getting in the lift and the bonnet the bonnets and stuff like that that type of stuff is great well anyways we're talking about Mormonism here and do either of you have a have a comment that you'd like to throw our direction on that go ahead

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Colin oh well actually Mike my comment wasn't so much specifically about Mormonism but about evangelism and apologetics as a whole and I'd wanted to just give you an opportunity

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James to talk about presuppositional apologetics because and how that would apply to evangelism and so forth just because so often we hear the evidential approach is even from reformed theologians and reformed apologists right but we don't often hear the pre the presuppositional approach and just wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about that well you know

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I think we need to define what we're talking about there when we talk about the difference between evidentialism and presuppositionalism the the better evidentialists and for example

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R .C. Sproul would call himself a classical apologist and would not necessarily agree with what he would call a full presuppositional perspective but to really try to narrow it down a little bit and then try to apply it maybe to the issue of apologetics in regards to Mormonism the difference really functionally as I see it is the presuppositionalist recognizes that the claim of the

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Lordship of Christ that is that it is fundamental to Christian belief to believe that Jesus Christ is not only

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Lord of all but as the Creator is the very foundation of knowledge and wisdom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in him that there because of that because that is a constituent element of the entire

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Christian worldview that it is absolutely inconsistent for the Christian to abandon that belief and step onto a supposedly neutral platform with an unbeliever and say let us attempt to reason from a neutral position to the position of the

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Christian God the presuppositionalist says that cannot be done for there is no such thing as a neutral fact every fact that exists exists because God has made it to exist and it has its ultimate ground of being and definition only in the fact that it is the creation of God when we join our society in looking at the universe is something that can be defined separately from the

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Creator that we have hopelessly abandoned the only foundation upon which we can call men to a

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God who is sovereign over all things and so especially dealing with atheists

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I think this is something we absolutely have to start with but I admit I have struggled

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Colin I've struggled to to understand exactly how some presuppositionalists insist that the full presuppositional model needs to be applied in interfaith witnessing in other words

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I understand how for example the transcendental argument for the existence of God which was popularized especially by Greg Bonson used in his classic debate against Gordon Stein I understand the relevance there but if you're talking to a theist or at least some form of a theist and dealing with Mormons we're dealing literally with polytheists the application of for example of a transcendent argument to a

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Mormon I can understand on a philosophical level one of the other regulars in our chat channel

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I don't see him there right now he comes in under the name of Apollo's first first name of Mark he has presented to me a number of arguments normally in private message against Mormonism that are

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I think devastating because philosophically the Mormon view of God is inconsistent and Greg Bonson would say that you need to apply an internal critique to a system and say that demonstrate the inconsistencies the

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Mormon view of God and things like that but they still at least are they are starting with certain presuppositions of supernaturalism and the existence of revelation the problem in dealing with Mormons is is dealing with the false revelations they have and how those revelations end up overriding and changing the meaning of the true revelation from God found in Scripture and so I think the internal critique element is true in regards to Mormonism but we also have to I think deal more with a with theological issues with the

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Mormons than we do in dealing with just an atheist and the transcendental argument or something along those lines okay and and and do all all

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British people sort of think along the same lines there Martin I'm sure it's the question you're gonna ask too right yes

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I don't know where I could have come down halfway between presuppositionalism and evidential although I stopped off doing of evidential apologetics but I'm beginning to understand a little bit more about the value of presuppositional apologetics

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I haven't read that much about I thought there's a book on the website and I should get my hands on it really yeah

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I think Bonson's debate if you can listen down the straight gate website is is an excellent example of that there are a number of books that have been printed now that deal with this particular issue we of course carry one called always ready by dr.

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Greg Bonson that I think presents the presuppositional perspective in a in a way that is very helpful for everyone to understand so I'd I'd recommend those to your your reading and I want to thank both of you for putting up with my playing with y 'all but hey

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I like the fact that we've got Martin over there in England and we've got Colin here in North Carolina which is about as close to well

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I guess Maine would be closer to England but anyways our our resident silly

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Brit as we call him in the in the channel we're gonna get some visitors out this one guys we really are there gonna be all can we can we talk with the silly

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Brit thanks for calling in today guys that was fun

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I like having folks what someone just kick somebody on the air that would be fine well anyways

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I do appreciate the fact that we do have regular folks who not only access our website but helps to keep me sharp they're frequently asking questions raising issues even providing resources that have been very helpful to me and I thank you for listening today on the dividing line pray for us as we are in Mesa beginning this

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Friday evening don't forget next week Monday through Friday evening Marty Minto straight talk live live in Mesa will be of course next

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Saturday we'll be talking about to this as we're gonna be sharing with the Mormons out there so be praying for us be looking for the