August 8, 2022 Show with Dr. Dan Doriani on “Work: Its Purpose, Dignity, & Transformation”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this eighth day of August 2022.

And I'm thrilled to have a first-time guest today, someone whom I've wanted to interview in the past, and there always seemed to be something conflicting with our schedules, but I'm thrilled to have the opportunity by the providence of our sovereign God to have him on today on a very important subject.

His name is Dr. Dan Doriani. He's an author, professor of biblical and systematic theology, and vice president at Covenant Theological Seminary, founder and president of Center for Faith and Work St. Louis in Missouri, and host of the podcast Working with Dan Doriani.

Today we're going to be addressing his new book, Work, Its Purpose, Dignity, and Transformation. And we're also going to be announcing the upcoming QuakerTown conference on reform theology featuring Dr. Doriani and other speakers this fall in QuakerTown, Pennsylvania, on the theme, The Sufficient Word.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Dr. Dan Doriani. It's great to have you on the program. First of all, tell our listeners about the Center for Faith and Work St. Louis.

Faith, Work, and Vocational Ministry

Yeah, so actually three projects in their corner of St. Louis and even a few overseas that try to take business leaders, men and women, formal leaders, that is to say people who may not have a rank on the chart, the organizational chart, but have a lot of influence, and enable them to ask the question, how can my biblical principles, how can my faith enable me to make a difference in my workplace, which might have, you know, ten people.

So we spend about 12 hours over a span of eight weeks doing that, and it's all transferable, anybody can do it. The second thing we do is work with a lot of internationals, a fair number of refugees, and we try to help them find good jobs, again based on biblical principles, working with pastors in those communities, which maybe we'll talk about, interview people who are practicing their faith at work.

Well, why don't you tell us about the podcast now so we can further whet the appetites of our listeners today.

Yeah, sure. The main one is, sure, sometimes, you know, not long time, Christians who are simply trying to practice love and justice and mercy and faithfulness and honesty can be anywhere from a surgeon.

One of my early interviews was with a groundbreaking surgeon whose techniques allowed people with cancer in this location to survive, and not only survive, but survive with their faculties and abilities intact, which was by no means assumed.

And, you know, he had great accolades and ministered for the world. Training often happens. He also got a lot of opposition because he questioned the way things were being done. And so his faith sustained him in a decades-long process of changing the way surgery was done in his area.

He was ear, nose, and throat. That is, to speak the truth in love whenever he broadcasts games. And that means that if a player's performing badly, you say so, but you say so in a way that would never demean anyone.

They were devalued as a person. Convey information in a way that's entertaining. And yet give people dignity. So there's two steps to inspire others. Movies, ambassador for the U .S. government, and we just try to let them share their story about what they're doing to show that Christ is the Lord of the world.

Well, praise God. That sounds fascinating. And I want to give both of those websites for each of the organizations that Dan has founded. First of all, the previous organization, Center for Faith and Work St. Louis, you can find that organization at faithandworksstl, abbreviation for St. Louis, obviously, .org, faithandworksstl .org.

And if you want to begin subscribing to the podcast, Working with Dan Doriani, you can go to workingwithdan .org, workingwithdan .org, and I'm sure that we will return to those websites towards the end of the program to remind you of them.

We have a tradition here on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, Dan. Whenever we have a first-time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which they were raised, any kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew him or her to himself and saved them.

And I'd love to hear your story.

Those are great categories. I operate within those. When I was 18 years old, I was a college student. I just turned 18, and I did grow up in a Christian family. In fact, I've never heard anybody else say this.

What I was involved in then led to church membership. I don't know of any other church, and that was my experience, and my friends were joining the church, and I did not have the courage. I remember sitting outside the church one day thinking, What am I doing?

This is not the way it's supposed to be. I don't believe this.

Would you think from your experience having conversations with Christians for quite a long time, is that normal for a person that young to be conscientiously an atheist?

Yeah, I was in the church I was in. I remember very distinctly I had a teacher at that time who was telling us about heaven and how when we're in heaven, we get to float on clouds and play the harp all day.

And I thought, If that's heaven, I want no part of it.

So there actually is somebody out there teaching people that that is what happens in heaven.

That's what I was taught when I was in third grade, absolutely. And I thought, Well, if that's what it is to be a Christian. But it was also a fairly legalistic environment, but that wasn't the only thing.

The truth is, my parents are both with the Lord now, I believe. My mother was very, very pious and maybe pietistic, and thought that everything would be resolved if you prayed enough. My father was not a great dad, and he could be pretty, or maybe even very rough toward his sons.

And he was a leader in the church, and that made it, he was not living a life, he did not treat his children the way a God would. I mean, it wasn't little things. I'll leave it at that. Absolutely awesome.

Time went by, and I thought, There's probably a God that made this universe in all of its complexity. I just wasn't convinced that he was. Christianity was the right accounting of that. A couple of friends that were essentially quasi-nihilistic.

Then I went to college, and wonderful, godly, intellectually gifted men, in the best sense of the word, and also athletic. I'm not a great athlete, and I never was a great athlete, but I loved sports, and I was pretty good at sports, and they were athletic.

And also very funny and lively, just hilarious people. We laughed a lot. And that sort of combination of intellectual giftedness and curiosity, athletic interest, and I'm going to say clean fun, not fun, not drunken fun, but just good humor, was what I needed.

I needed to see people living out the Christian faith, and they were. Again, you asked the question about God's providential preparation. I did have a very godly grandfather. One of my grandfathers died when I was quite young.

But the other was very godly, and so I saw that example. And I also had an umbrella to the Lord and to his work. And so, you know, God sent people around me to receive the gospel.

And when did you realize you had a calling upon your life from God to enter into the world of academia in the Christian realm?

Yeah. A lot of people, what they're supposed to do at a relatively early age. One of my children, you know, that does actually happen. A lot of people want to be a teacher. I remember, again, in early age, 7th grade, I would be sitting in math class and thinking, if they would explain, if the teacher would explain it this way, my classmates would understand it so much better.

Now, that's not all that unusual experience, and millions of people have that kind of sense, and they're meant to be teachers. But I always thought that I wanted to be a college professor. I thought, you know, high school and junior high, it's just too simple.

So from a pretty early age, I mean, even in high school, I thought, I think I'm supposed to be a professor, most likely, which I think suits me better than being a…. But it was pretty early.

And you also, were you not in the pastoral ministry for….

15 years, and in some ways, more than that. I mean, at the moment, like this summer, right now, I am an interim pastor working kind of close to full time for the summertime at a wonderful church in St. Louis, mid-sized, or slightly larger church in St. Louis, that for many years, and he moved on to another calling, and they asked me to fill in.

So I'm preaching for a year or more at this church, and having a great time, delightful, it's a real gift.

And where is that church, so we can let our listeners know?

Yeah, I think it's just part of St. Louis, it's a neighborhood in St. Louis, or town, technically, outside St. Louis, but I mean, it's part of St. Louis, it's very much dedicated to its neighborhood, which I find really good.

But beyond that, I was a pastor right after grad school of a very small church, we called it four and a half years or so, almost five years, and then I was pastor, lead pastor of a very large church in St. Louis, 13, I took about almost an 11-year break from academia during that period of time, and was a pastor.

Yes, I'm very familiar with the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and I don't know if you know my friend Mitch Tepper, a Jewish believer, but he is in that denomination.

Yes, yes.

And I know quite a number of other folks as well. Well, I looked up that church's website, so my listeners can have that as well. If you're interested in exploring that church, go to GreenTreeChurch .com, GreenTreeChurch .com, that's Green Tree Community Church in Kirkwood, Missouri.

And we mentioned at the beginning of the program that you are featured as one of the speakers at the Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology in Quakertown, Pennsylvania. I'm sure some people get confused hearing that name, thinking that it's a Quaker conference, but it is not.

It is always a Reformed conference, and it is orchestrated by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, and I have been to many of these conferences. In fact, I have met you face-to-face a number of times, and when you see me, God willing, in November at the Sufficient Word Conference, you will probably say, oh, I remember that ugly guy now.

I primarily saw you at the Harvey Cedars conferences.

Right. I only did a little bit, but yes.

Okay, yeah, I definitely saw you more than one occasion. But I love the theme of the Quakertown Conference 2022 coming up in November 11th through the 12th at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, pastored by my dear friend Ron Cole, cancer survivor, wonderful brother.

The Sufficient Word is such a serious issue because not only do you have historically one of the main reasons that the Reformers were protesting the heresies of Roman Catholicism was because of the Church of Rome's rejection of the sufficiency of Scripture.

But you even have, especially in the 21st century, many who claim to be Protestant, who unconsciously reject the sufficiency of Scripture. They might never say that, and they may not recognize that, but it is, I think, a rampant problem in the Church.

Tell us about this conference.

The Sufficiency and Clarity of Scripture

I'll pick up on one thing you said about sufficiency of Scripture. So there are basically three speakers. I'm one of them. The others are Rick Phillips, a very good friend of mine, and Harry Reeder, someone with whom I've also ministered to some extent over the years.

Yes, I've interviewed both of those men and received commendations for the program from them on the website.

Yeah, I mean, I'm blessed by God with both energy and clarity of thought and clarity of expression. So the themes, I'll just mention them briefly, are the authority of Scripture, the clarity of Scripture.

Now, of course, we start with the authority, but that's not, you know, your comment was actually about sufficiency. That's the second talk, and I think it's extremely important if I can just label this for you.

So the Catholic Church says that the Bible is inspired and infallible. But what they deny is, and they say it's inspired by God and it's without error, but we need, and we need, so says the Catholic Church, the traditions of the Church, that is to say, you know, the pecuniaries and the doctors of the Church, those who are set apart by the Church.

We need more revelation. Dr. Reeder on the Phillips and I, we're all saying, no, the Bible is not only authoritative, it gives us everything we need for faith and life. It directs us as to what to believe and how to practice.

So that's really, Rick, and I'm going to speak on the clarity of Scripture, which is a similar kind of an issue. The Catholic Church, again, believes in the inspiration and authority of Scripture. It doesn't, it's clear.

Now, I'm not saying that every passage of the Bible is equally clear. In fact, Peter says that there are parts of letters that are hard to comprehend. But hard to comprehend and impossible to comprehend are two different things.

So we might say, yes, there are parts of the Bible that demand careful study, and Scripture must be compared to Scripture, and we can't allow any interpretation that would seem to contradict another portion of the Word.

But the Bible is clear enough to direct us. So, for example, I mean, I read on Ordination of Women, and it's pretty clear what the Bible says. And then they said, well, actually, no, the Bible is not clear.

We don't know what it says. We don't know what the words mean, and Paul says, I don't permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. And so we don't know what he means. What it would mean to officially deny might be up in the air.

But at a practical level, they're saying it's not sufficient because it's not clear. We don't know what it says. So we're going to affirm three things, then. The authority, the final authority, the final authority.

Yeah, if there's anything that is crystal clear in the Scriptures, it's sole male authority in the church. I don't understand people who claim to believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Scriptures and read those prohibitions from Paul and come away with any different idea.

I can't help but think a false presupposition is driving them in a refusal to abandon a tradition.

You know, the Bible isn't a topic like...

By the way, you can pass on a personal note from me to Richard Phillips. You can tell him, as a Reformed Baptist, I do forgive him for converting my friend Joe Bianchi to Presbyterianism.

Thanks.

Even though this occurred many years ago, every time Rich sees me at a conference, he reminds me of it.

I'm sure he does.

By the way, you said something earlier about Catch -22, and now I'm starting to feel guilty that I can remember... Now, I saw that movie, that 1970 movie, many years ago before I was a Christian, but I can remember laughing at it and enjoying it a great deal.

Now I feel I have a need to repent of that.

Well, I have an extremely young connection to the movie, but... Sorry, the movie has some connection...

Yeah, I think that was my introduction to Alan Arkin, who is a brilliant actor, in spite of any flaws in what he may be involved in. But that was like a star-studded movie with Buck Henry and Bob Newhart and a whole bunch of folks.

Well, before we return to what is our main theme today... Oh, I forgot to mention. Folks, if you're interested in attending the Sufficient Word conference, the Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology, November 11th through the 12th, at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, forward slash, the-sufficient-word.

That's alliancenet .org, forward slash, the-sufficient-word. Or you could just go to alliance .net and click Events and scroll until you see that conference. I will be there, God willing, manning an exhibitor's booth for Arjen Schroepf and Zion Radio.

So if you attend, I hope you greet me at my booth during a break. And we are going to be, when we return from our station break, we are going to be entering into the main theme at hand, Work, Its Purpose, Dignity, and Transformation, which is also the title of Dan Doriani's new book, published by PNR Publishing.

And so if you have a question for Dan Doriani, send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

If you're asking a personal and private question about work, perhaps it has something to do with one of your adult children not having work, or perhaps it's even you, yourself, you're going through a period of depression because you haven't been able to find employment or adequate employment.

If it's something personal and private, we will allow you to remain anonymous. But if it's just a general question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Dan Doriani on Work, Its Purpose, Dignity, and Transformation right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Now we are back with Dr. Dan Doriani. He is founder and president of Center for Faith and Work, St. Louis. He is host of Working with Dan Doriani, which is a podcast, and he is the author of the new book published by PNR Publishing, Presbyterian and Reform Publishing, Work, Its Purpose, Dignity, and Transformation.

And Dan, work is obviously something that has captured your heart, it has burdened your mind and soul. You have founded an organization dedicated to faith and work. You have a podcast about work, and you've written this book.

Tell us about why this subject became such a focus of your mind and ministry.

The Christian Meaning of Work

Two grandfathers, as everybody does, and one of them was a tremendously successful farmer. If you measure it by material means, but he loved to work. He was running a farm. My other grandfather was an opera singer and an artist.

You know, this grandfather's programs you can still find on the Internet from the 30s and 40s and 50s. He sang all over the world. Again, right now. So he was a pretty famous man. Actually in the Philadelphia area, not a lot farther.

You know, art, I don't know exactly the status of it, but you know, that's my grandfather. So intriguing to me at an early age that I had these two grandfathers who were captured in my imagination as a child.

And then the second thing, though, is my father was a very inquisitive man, and whenever he'd meet somebody who had an interesting job, he would always ask him, tell me about your job, engineer. He wanted to know about it.

He was just a very curious, inquisitive man. And that rubbed off on me, I think, in a good way, especially when I was a pastor of a larger church. There's a lot of very interesting professionals, and I fell into the habit of interviewing them and asking them about their work, partly under the influence of early writers on faith and work who said you need to minister to them adequately and not just ask them to be busy at church, but actually to bring the kingdom of God to bear, engineers of all kinds, people in the construction trade, medical trade, financial fields, you name it, to me because I was and am a Calvinist.

I believe that Christ rules all of life, and we spend so much of our energy, our life's energy, on work. You know, eight hours a day we say usually is the minimum, but a lot of people work 10 hours a day or 12 hours a day, four, five, six days, and it's where we have the greatest resources.

It's where we have the greatest training. It's where we have teams of people who can work on projects together. And so when I say concentrated firepower make this world a somewhat better place or at least a less unjust and less exploitative and less materialistic place.

So I slowly got more and more interested not just in listening to stories and speaking about it from time to time, which I always did, I decided to put the thoughts I've been gathering over a span of 20 years into a book.

Well, praise God for that. And we do have an anonymous listener already who has a question. Do you have any Christian counsel for someone like myself who absolutely despises their work? I'm not saying that I'm lazy and I don't hate work.

I just happen to hate with a passion the job that I have to earn money to provide for my family, and I would love to be working at a career that employed my gifts and my talents and things that I love, but I was unable to find such a job.

What can I do to overcome this mindset of hatred for what I am doing?

Calling, Contentment, and Changing Jobs

Well, that's an extremely important question, listener, for sending it in. So there are problem changes. This is actually based in our calling, and the principles found in 1 Corinthians 7, which I call stay unless because.

If you look at 1 Corinthians 7 globally, it tells people who are asking questions of Paul. Paul tells people who are asking questions about difficult positions in life. Paul's first word to them is stay.

So if you're single and you think maybe you want to get married, Paul says, well, we've got this current distress. You should stay unless you're burning with past causes. Similarly, if you're married to a non-Christian, this is Corinth, the converts of Paul, and a lot of people converted, both husband and wife and whole family together, praise God for that, and others converted and their spouse did not.

And so they asked Paul the question, and now we're in verses 10 and following of 1 Corinthians 7. They asked him, you know, can I leave my marriage to a non-Christian? Paul said, no, you've got to stay.

You're in your marriage, that's God's plan, lifelong marriage, unless the unbelieving partner resolves to leave, in which case he says let them leave because God called us to stay unless because. And I'm not advocating, if someone moves to Australia with no forwarding address and changes their identity and they divorce you, which they can do against your will, you're not married anymore.

And Paul says, you know, because God calls you to peace. And then he does it again with slaves. Slavery was not the same then as it is now. They were able to buy their way out of slavery before they were 40 years old.

It wasn't race-based. Slaves earned the same wage as anybody else so they could save money and buy themselves out of slavery. But not everybody was free to do so and not every owner of a slave would let the slave buy themselves out of slavery.

So Paul gets a question again. What do you do if you're a slave and you're called? Now, of course, I'm now answering the question more directly because being a slave or an enslaved person is a miserable job.

Who would want to be a slave? How could I escape my slavery? I hate being a slave. But slavery would certainly be something that an unbeliever, a pagan, or a believer could say at that time. And Paul says, stay in the position in life in which God calls you.

He says it in verse 17. In 1 Corinthians 7, he says it again in 20. Each one should remain in the position he was called in. The position you were in when God called you, let him there remain with God.

That's verse 24. He says it three times, stay. But then he says, elect. He says, unless you can gain your freedom or avail yourself of the opportunity, the translation is, unless you can gain your freedom, in which case you should.

Now, it's easier to serve God when you're free than when you're a slave. Absolutely free. Nobody's absolutely a slave. The person who is, 24. And the person who's free is Christ's slave. And the truth of the matter is, a lot of people are called God's slave in the Bible.

Paul was, Moses was, David was. They called themselves God's slaves. Jesus actually is called, the most free person in the world is still God the Father. If you're miserable in your work, you need to hear what Paul's saying for you there.

If you're miserable in your work, you can also ask the question, is there an unless here? Am I free to go? Am I free to do something else? Now, if you want to take a job, but you can't leave the job you have, it would not enable you.

So you have that ongoing obligation. You can't find a new job if it would be a violation of other principles, such as, for three years, and the three years aren't up yet, or caring for your family members.

To change a job, then you should look for one, setting where it's just a large populace. If that doesn't apply to you, and I'm guessing maybe that doesn't apply to this caller, then it's worthwhile. Now, I do believe in consulting with career consultants.

One of my family members has done that. It was extraordinarily beneficial, and he ended up in a place he wouldn't have expected. It took some years of retraining and earning credibility over time in his workplace, but he's exactly where he needs to be, and he loves it.

Now, it did start with him going. He's a believer, and he went to a Christian woman who does vocational assessment, and she said, you know, you should aim for this career. I think it would suit you really well, and it has.

So that's an option, and of course the other things include just spreading your net wide, as widely as you can, and of course prayer. You know, Lord guide me to a conversation or a person with whom I can talk about work, and the more open you are to opportunities, the more you're praying for opportunities, the more you're liable to see them when they come.

So that's not global, but that's at least the starting point. The first idea, if you need to stay, you know, there is a theme in the Bible that we summarize aptly by saying bloom where you're planted, and we often find ourselves in work that we would never have chosen for ourselves.

For example, I was reading an article by a Christian. Actually, one of my students was reflecting on the fact that she suddenly had twins. It was not expected. Deeply interrupted with her plans for her life, including service to God.

You know, I would never have chosen it, and I have friends who have triplets and children who have serious developmental difficulties, and their lot is harder than mine, but I'm finding myself in this difficult calling, and perhaps that could be the result for this caller as well, that you may hate your job now, but God may enable you to see how he is shaping you, informing you, at least love your coworkers.