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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.
Here is James white.
And welcome to the dividing line today. It's good to be back here in Phoenix, Arizona after a lengthy trip to the East Coast and the great debate 2002 seventh year we have done the great debates on Long Island.
I was thinking about that while we were back there. What a tremendous job Chris Arnzen has done in organizing those debates first two years with Jerry Matta ticks then with Mitchell Pacwa and then two years with Robertson genus we were Getting the mass debate with Robertson genus on mp3 yesterday.
And I was so catching sections of it and could not believe how nasty that debate Was. I'd totally forgotten just how in-your-face and and Means and genus was in that debate. I mean he took some really cheap shots that just went over like lead balloons.
It was really funny. But anyways, those are available that debate is available on mp3 now. If you haven't been noticing that right-hand column on the website. There is a bunch of mp3s up there available to you and all the techno geeks in the world are singing hallelujah as a result because they don't have to buy the tapes and then put into a machine and then digitize it and Then stick it in the mp3 player.
Which is what all cool people do is you listen to everything on mp3 now, so you don't have anything moving in there. It's just all digital and and little teeny tiny memory cards and cool fun stuff like that, and I fully understand that anyways.
Then after some genus we had Father Peter Stravinsky's last year on purgatory and then the debate this year Patrick Madrid former vice president of Catholic answers editor of envoy magazine we debated the subject of the veneration of Saints angels and images and I I talked with a lot of folks in channel.
I talked with folks at the various churches I went to before I went there because I went to Georgia first for about four or five days. Then up to Long Island and Everybody was going wow you know how how did how does anyone defend veneration of Saints angels and images and I said man?
That's that's my biggest problem. Is that 98 of the people walking in there have never heard a defense of the veneration of Saints angels and images and the very? fact that mr. Madrid's gonna present one and Present things that people never heard of before is two strikes against me.
I knew it was gonna be tough. I knew exactly where mr. Madrid was going to be going because he wrote a book on the subject and That's exactly where he did go in point of fact. He was Very very much right where I expected him to be as far as his presentation went and the focus was exactly what I expected it to be so the debate went exactly as I expected it to go and It is available already in audio anyways mp3 format at a omin org and we will be working on the video.
Had some problems with the video. Just basically not not because it wasn't human error it was equipment failure. We had a piece of equipment that just blew its mind right toward the middle of debate toward the end of the bait and I I was absolutely amazed as I saw the guys setting up Warren Smith flew out and Simon Escobedo and his daughter Angelique and my my wife and daughter were there was really to finally have some of my family get to attend the great debate and Big B was there and as everybody was setting up.
I was first of all very very impressed mr. Smith did a great job his first time he had done this and that's a lot of pressure to be under to To do it for the real thing the first time when it really really counts.
But what was absolutely amazing to me was? Was Warren would get on the phone and he'd he'd call rich back here in Phoenix, and he'd say rich. This doesn't look like it's going together right now. Rich doesn't have anything in front of him.
The equipment's all out there in in New York, and I kept watching as as Warren would say okay. No, where's that and then the things that quiet for a moment? He'd reach over and he'd grab something you throw a switch do whatever it is and I couldn't help but thinking of rich sitting back here.
Looking staring off into space. Visualizing all this equipment and guiding Warren especially as we got closer and closer to debate. Guiding him through these difficulties, and I couldn't help but think of the old Chess masters who would play blindfold chess.
I got into chess so much once that I could play blindfold chess. I could play the game without using a board. Now I can only play one person that way and the great grandmasters could pay play 150 people at once and win most of the games without using a single board.
I mean, it's just incredible how they could do that, but here's here's rich playing blindfold chess because. Especially when you looked at all the cables coming out of the various and sundry pieces of equipment over there.
Is just as complicated as any chess board could ever be so it was very very impressive how they managed to get that done. Well, like I said, we had one piece of equipment just go kaflouie halfway through the debate and and yeah, I know used to do that shamrock sporting laptops and anyone who has had to walk a a Salesman through fixing something on a computer both develops the patience of job and the ability to see things that don't actually exist.
Which is sort of scary, but anyways. Anyhow. It was really a very very impressive feat to see all this stuff come together and and we will have the debate available once we. Actually rich is sort of happy it happened because he now has an excuse to buy this piece of equipment that he says he needs.
To fix the video, you know, I think we could probably find other way of doing it. But hey, you know if it makes him happy makes him happy. And so he's gonna be getting his new toy this week and working on the video and hopefully we'll have that available in The not-too-distant future because it was an excellent debate to watch again.
Fundamentally the difference between solo scriptura and sola ecclesia. What is your ultimate authority? Is it the text of inspired scripture or is it's the traditions of a man-made religion and That came out again as normal with with great clarity in the course of this particular debate.
We had an excellent moderator, by the way, I was very impressed. Pastor Bill Shishko. I have preached in Bill Shishko's Church. He is pastor of one of the pastors of the Franklin Square Orthodox Presbyterian Church on Long Island and he has graded the debates.
He's done debate judging in the past and He ruled with an iron fist. One point in the debate. During the cross-examination. He just refused to sit in the back. He wanted to be close to the action. So he was actually sitting at the end of Patrick Madrid's table.
And so Patrick and I are facing each other asking questions going back and forth and he's timing it and when the time ran out. He had a gavel. So you got a picture as he's sitting behind Patrick. Patrick's sort of forgotten that he's even there.
That's the time runs out and he smacks the gavel on the table. And I think Patrick lost about seven years of growth. Right then in there. It was really really funny. So in the second section, we were just about out of time.
I looked at Patrick and said You're about to hear that sound again. He sort of looked the other direction and caught him before he brought the gavel down. So it's it went it went very very well. So as did everything else.
I mean speaking in Georgia, Massachusetts Trinity Fellowship Church in New Jersey Took me four hours and 20 minutes to drive 115 miles from Seaford, New York to to Tom's River, New Jersey. Because the Belt Parkway was a parking lot and The the Garden State Parkway was a parking lot.
I think that's what Parkway means you you park you get out of the way one of the two and So it was it was a mess getting down there, but wonderful opportunity of preaching the gospel down there preaching the gospel to folks at Bethlehem Bible Church up in Massachusetts West Broylston got to go to Northampton and See for example, David Brainerd's grave and got to see it was really cool an original letter from Jonathan Edwards.
Even got to see a set of sermon notes from Solomon Stoddard that were absolutely incredible. I'm serious It those of you who've read the Jonathan Edwards set the two-volume set or read part parts of it.
Who's read all it. You know that the font is extremely small I mean You had you literally have to use a magnifying glass to read the banner of truth to volume Jonathan Edwards set and that's about what six point font maybe if the handwritten Solomon Stoddard sermon notes were three point I would be surprised and Yet the librarian told me that if we had the time and she was in a big rush.
But if we had had the time to use a magnifying glass, you'd see that every single letter was readable. It's incredible I mean it was it was about the size of a three by five card. And yet written back in the in, you know, the 1730s and 40s and stuff like that was really really cool.
So I had an excellent time all the all the churches were great grace reform Baptist Church and we got to got to speak at Jim Capo's Church and Just just all over Long Island, and I'm very very thankful.
I Really really makes my trip to Long Island. And this was this is a 25-day trip much longer than I am accustomed to ever ever getting to to take I am a I am a homebody very very much so and Anyways, I was very very thankful that a gentleman who Came to know Christ through our ministry on Long Island.
He came to the debate with Robertson Janice on justification as a Catholic and Is now a member of a solid Baptist Church there on Long Island. This this brother is I'll just mention Brian and rich have been helping Chris Arnzen tremendously as Did Mary this year in setting up the debates and I just really want to thank Brian.
Because he gave me wheels. He allowed me to be mobile while I'm on Long Island and the fact the matter is I really am getting to know Long Island. Really? Well some folks on Long Island will tell you I was giving them directions and they live there as To how to get to where they wanted to go.
I've really started to learn the island real well. And so for me to have wheels really helps out a tremendous bit. I had this I had this Grand Prix, man I'm gonna tell you any of you who've ever been on Long Island know what I mean.
When you get on the southern state you need a car with an engine in it. Okay. This this thing was designed back when cars couldn't go more than 35 miles an hour and so it's got this these little loop entrances and you have about 70 yards at max and Some some I'd say maybe 50 at max to get up to full speed and what's full speed about 70 miles per hour.
So you're talking pedal to the metal. Hold on. Let's go. That's what you got to do and and exiting is the same thing. We were coming back from speaking one place and the exit came up and you literally had to go from 70 to 10 in.
Just a matter of feet. I mean you're talking digging the nose of the car into the ground before you're hanging a hard right just incredible. I'm just hoping that I can avoid tickets here in Phoenix once I start driving regularly around here because I did learn to drive as a New Yorker while I was on the Long Island because you've got to if you don't do that you get run over.
There's absolutely no love lost for for visitors on Long Island at all, but I'm not going anymore that because it's much more that I could say about it. Excellent trip. Thanks to all those who were involved and we look forward to next year next year right now tentatively.
We already have a yes from dr. Peter Kreeft and What we'd like to debate is the issue of the Roman Catholic priesthood. Is there such thing as a Sacramental celibate separated priesthood class of individuals who have special powers through ordination or is it what the Bible teaches that every single man woman and child who is in Christ is a believer priest and That there is no sacramental priesthood in The New Testament whatsoever that that is a innovation of man that in point of fact a compromises the singular The singular priesthood of Jesus Christ.
That's hopefully what we'll end up talking about next year. Now right before the debate July 10th of last month right before the debate Catholic answers live had a guest on and I knew this was coming.
Of course. I I had heard about it. I Folks in the chat room keep me up to speed on things people send me emails all the time. Did you know that such-and-such and such-and-such? Well, my sister Patti Patrick bonds as she now calls herself was going to be on Catholic answers live and I had heard about this and I'll admit it is it is very very frustrating indeed.
Not so much what she's doing. I told her That this was going to happen. I Specifically said that that those people who know her and know of her conversion are not going to allow her to Just live a quiet life that they are going to use her.
They're going to force her to be something that she's not and that's exactly what has happened I have kept all the emails that we have exchanged back and forth and I can go back and Show back when she was saying well, I'm not gonna do anything publicly and I thought it out of them I can show where I said, I'm sorry, but you're used to these folks Only has to do with your attachment to my name and they're not gonna allow you to be quiet.
In fact, they're gonna force you to become something that you actually aren't and that's exactly what's taking place now I obviously am very saddened by what my sister is doing, but I am really much more Not not the term concern to be wrong.
I find it absolutely Disgusting what groups like Catholic answers are doing now. Let's think about let's listen. First of all to a clip How did Catholic answers start this off are they just simply talking about a convert to Catholicism.
No, of course not. Listen to Jerry Usher as he begins the program.
Patty Patrick Bond she is a recent convert to the Catholic faith, but just over a year or so ago. And We of course have had numerous converts to Catholicism on the program in the past. But not every one of them.
In fact, none of them up until today was related to James White who is a Well a well-known. I guess you'd call an anti-catholic. He has been involved in debates with say James Aiken from Catholic answers and others and his sister Patty Patrick Bonds joined the Catholic Church just as I said a little bit over a year ago now.
Listen, listen to what's being said there. Why is Patty Patrick Bonds on Catholic answers live? For only one reason because she's my sister. It has nothing to do with the reasons of her conversion what she knew before her conversion.
Anything else Catholic answers is putting her on because she's my sister now. These are the same individuals who will not debate me. Now. You just heard them say well James Aiken has debated him. Actually James Aiken did a I think it was a one-hour radio debate with me on KIXL radio.
We've discussed this before we've documented the fact that he grossly made errors on in regards to Greek syntax and lexicography and we played a section where someone even called in and asked him about that and he had no response in regards to The syntax of John 6 and so on so forth.
That's the only time James Aiken has done a formal debate with me and it was a radio debate. It was not in person. They call the Bible Answer Man appearance a debate. That wasn't a debate. Bible Answer Man is not debate.
There is not equal time periods. There's not opportunity for cross-examination. It's not on one subject. That's not a debate in any way shape or form. Mr. Aiken has agreed twice To be involved with the great debate on Long Island two times.
He has said to mr. Irons and okay, I'll be glad to do that. We'll do. He was scheduled to do the justification debate and I believe it was the year 2000. And I believe before that he had agreed to one as well every single time.
He has backed out. He will not debate me. We have we have had a standing challenge to Carl Keating since late September October of the year 1990 for 12 years we've been challenging Carl Keating and When Chris Arnson first contacted Carl Keating about coming out and being involved the great debate in the first few years.
We were doing it when he first said that you know, I'm Chris Arnson and I'm Arranging these debates on Long Island and this is how we're doing it. Carl's response was that sounds great. I'd be I'd be be very interested and who would I be debating?
Well, the process debaters James White. Well, I'm not interested. Well, why is that personal reasons and that's it? Carl Keating won't debate me. We went to San Diego we invited James Aiken and Carl Keating and and whoever from Catholic answers to Engage in the debate right there in their own hometown won't do it won't even show up.
So here you've got these individuals. Who we have responded to every time they've attempted at least to our knowledge. To respond to my books and to my materials in this rock magazine. We have fully refuted their efforts on our website that information is right there.
You can go to a omen org go to the Roman Catholic section. You'll see article after article. Refuting everything they've put into print. They won't debate. They've been refuted over and over again. They won't respond to the refutations.
But what will they do? They will take a housewife and put her on an apologetics program. And in fact, we're gonna hear a section later on where they actually allow her to start giving advice to apologists.
What kind of desperation is that? Absolutely positively. Incredible and so the people I hold accountable. Oh, what in the world was that? Oh, I bet you I didn't take turn my sounds off. That's good sounds off.
Sound off. There you go. I'm gonna find out who did that one to me here in a second. And anyways. They didn't even didn't even realize that I'm recording this thing and my sounds wrong anyways. That actually was rather fitting wasn't it?
These individuals who know that they cannot Answer direct cross-examination in a public setting and will not expose themselves to it. Will then pull a stunt like putting my sister on their national radio broadcast the day before debate on Long Island isn't that Amazing.
I think that shows us a lot about what these folks are all about. Well moving on. I have 17 clips to play and if I'm gonna get to all of them I'm gonna need to keep moving on very very quickly. I think the folks up at Northwest Community Church from which Patti Patrick Bonds Left would be very very interested in the description.
That mrs. Bonds gives of their church.
I would like you to do if you would for us is describe the church you left in order to become Catholic. Would you say that it was? Protestant fundamentalist evangelical or what? We were.
Also what I would describe is Hyper Calvinist, I would have described myself that way. In fact, I was very proud of being a Calvinist and.
Hyper Calvinist. Now I'm sure the folks at at Northwest Community Church would scratch their heads at such a description of them. Now after My sister's appearance and after the debate the next week I dropped into AOL instant message with her and I began asking her questions.
I didn't get a whole lot of answers. But one of the one of the questions I asked is are you aware of the fact that the term? Hyper-Calvinist has a specific meaning. That a hyper Calvinist is a person who denies that we have a responsibility to share the gospel.
Denies that we are commanded to preach the gospel. Denies that we can preach the gospel to all men. No, she wasn't aware of that she thought hyper Calvinist meant you were just really really a Calvinist.
Now folks if you're a Calvinist and you don't know what a hyper Calvinist is. That means you're not a very well-read Calvinist and here's one of the problems. These individuals are trying to turn Patti Patrick Bonds into something.
She never was. She had maybe read a few books. She'd heard a few tapes but she was not in a Reformed Church. Northwest Community is not a Reformed Church and So You immediately get the sense that many of the errors that she ends up making and there are a number of them that will be Noting that I brought up to her and asked well, are you familiar with the response to this?
Are you familiar with this and the only response I get back? Oh, you're raging against the church. You're angry against the church and all the rest of stuff. The reason she has no response is because she didn't know any of these things.
She may come to know it now. In fact, I found fascinating that I've discovered. She's now listening to my debates. She didn't before a conversion and in fact alleged, you know lit initially said she couldn't listen to because I was so intimidating and mean.
But now she can listen to them as a Roman Catholic. Why. Because she's she's being forced to become something that she never was and the thing it really bothers me is it's obvious to to Everybody that the reason these people are showing so much interest in her is not because of her.
If you go to her website and you take my name off of any every everything. There's not gonna be a reason for anyone to go that website. That's what's so sad. Here is these people are using her and once the use of her is over.
Well, where are they gonna be? Well, we'll find out. We'll find out in the not-too-distant future sadly, but right now they think this is hey, this this is great. We can't debate him. We we wouldn't dare do it, but we'll we'll throw somebody else out there and I'm sure it'll increase our donations and things like that.
You'll hear some of the people who call in who basically Bear out exactly what I'm saying about that. So anyways Let us press forward. Listen to this this little section here. I.
Wanted it birthed in me and I need to understand What people in that time of the church believed? Because it was obvious that it was nothing like I had expected it to be. So that kind of began my search for what was going on in the early church.
What would what did it mean to be a Catholic bishop and in the 300 from the 400.
Now over and over again. She's going to make the statement. She was looking for Objective information. That's why she wouldn't go to her pastor. That's why she wouldn't go to me. She claims she knows what we'd have to say how she would know that.
I don't know because as she admits All she heard was post debate discussions. She hadn't listened to any of my debates. How she would know how I would Talk to when when would I've ever had a conversation with her concerning what bishops in the 4th century believed or didn't believe.
Instead she goes to Roman Catholic sources and if we as we have documented on the website over and over and over again Rome is extremely selective in its utilization of what it calls tradition. It will only cite those early church fathers that it finds useful to cite but will ignore those other early church fathers that say things opposite of what modern Roman Catholicism and acronistically wishes to read back into the early church fathers and Given that she obviously never took the time to look at a good or Whitaker or salmon or any of the fine scholarly works produced by Protestants on these particular subjects.
How can it be said that she was objectively examining the early church so in the AOL instant message I asked her about various sundry early church fathers. Did you examine Ambrosia stir? I've sent her quotes from Ambrosia stirs commentary where uses the phrase sola fide faith alone.
And it's so common to hear Roman Catholic Luther made up faith alone insert into Romans 3 and all the rest that stuff and again any objective examination of those things would demonstrate that's not true and so How is this an objective thing if the only people you go to a Roman Catholics and we're gonna see how this just snowballs through the course of of the interview and through the course of the Callers who call in as well.
Let's try to sneak one more. One more a clip in before we take our first break.
Fascinating story and so you started studying church history after that I present. Well, yeah, I started reading more of what he had written and I Remembered that I had had a very brief conversation with a man who'd visited our church a couple years earlier.
Who so still a Protestant had spent some time studying the Catholic faith because he was a missionary in a Catholic country. And he had changed his opinions about the Catholic Church dramatically. And I remember what he said, even though I remained still very anti-catholic I remember for some reason what he said really stirred me and I felt that whatever it was he was doing he was on the right track and I told him so after the meeting so we had had this brief conversation and I decided that if I was going to get objective information from someone and I was afraid to go to my pastor because I already knew where they stood and I Was reluctant to go to my brother because I already know where he stood.
I had his books on my shelf. I Had listened to post-debate conversations. I knew where he stood I wanted to know where I could get some objective information somebody that didn't have a prejudice of any kind whether it was familial or you know theological where do I just find out what Catholics really believe so I Emailed him.
It took me a little work to find his address, but I got it and I emailed him I just want to understand what Catholics believe. Will you share with me some of the things you've learned?
Now who is Patty Patrick Bond speaking of there? She's speaking of a man by the name of David Bjork and She gets very upset with me when I mentioned the man's name. I think that any Christian would recognize that this is an individual who was functioning as a missionary for the missionary denomination in France and yet has basically adopted Roman Catholic practices and positions and If we're concerned about issues of truth then you expose those who are wolves in sheep's clothing and David Bjork is a wolf in sheep's clothing and I think the people in the missionary denomination need to be made aware of him and he needs to be dealt with.
Because I'd like to know what things he sent to Patty. I'd like to know if he sent her Information demonstrating that every single bishop at the Council of Nicaea in 325 would not have qualified as being a Roman Catholic today.
I would like to know if he sent her the contrast between the Council of Florence and its teachings on salvation and Vatican II and made her aware of the contradictions here and the necessary adoption of such theories as the development Hypothesis of Cardinal Newman and things like that.
I haven't heard any of that and in fact later on Patty's going to talk about Cardinal Newman's famous statement to go deep into history has ceased to be Protestant and as I pointed out to Patty at the time Of our AOL instant message and in letters that followed afterwards.
Could you explain if that is indeed true why? Cardinal Newman opposed the definition of papal infallibility and when that definition was then promulgated that he had to go back and rewrite Sections of his own works on history to fit the new reality.
Is that what it means to go deep into history is to change history so as to meet the dogmas of your church. I get no answers from those things instead. I just got a whole you're raging against the church.
You're angry. Well, you know people who don't have answers to truth will tend to want to believe that those who show them The truth are angry. They'll come up with some way to get around that and sadly that's the case here Objective information.
I don't think it was objective information. We continue listening to the Catholic answers live broadcast and providing a Response based upon truth you're on the dividing line. We'll be right back. Some religious place.
The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine. In his book the God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of Justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.
Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith. Dr. Jay Adams says I lost sleep over this book.
I simply couldn't put it down. James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates. This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words.
The God who justifies by dr. James White. Get your copy today at a omen.
More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.
This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language?
James White's book the Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatory and indulgences and Marian doctrine. James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself.
They cannot be ignored. Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen.
Org this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.
The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.
On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.
How the pilgrims progress is not an easy way. It's a journey.
It's a walk of praise. And welcome back the dividing line with our new Steve camp bumper music mix. Great songs. Hope you're listening to that Cornerstone outro that we used. It couldn't be more appropriate in regards to its statement about praying to dead saints and so on and so forth and in fact, I think that song was Especially made.
But anyways, we are responding to the Catholic answers live program of July 10th. Jerry Usher interviewing Patti Patrick bonds. And by the way, mr. Usher if you would ever like to Demonstrate your apologetic abilities. I would be more than happy to Be on the program with you.
And if you'd like to come on our program, please feel free to do so. You know, it's funny if if half the things are said in these programs are true I would think that they would want to have me on Just to demonstrate how silly I am, but you know, I I never get the call.
We're the ones that issue the challenges and it's Catholic answers who challenged me to debate first. I said yes, but For some reason it just doesn't seem to go both directions. I I wonder why that is.
Well, we continue on here's a little bit of the next section of the interview.
Five years very aware of the presence of God and walking with him intimately and and you know The scriptures say my sheep know my voice. And they know me. And when I went to mass and the Eucharist came I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Spirit of God had fallen that place and that Jesus was present.
And That sent me to the parking lot asking God an entire shopping list of questions. What about Mary. What about Saints. What about purgatory. What about working for our salvation. I was frantic. I had to have answers and that's pretty much what led me to Asking my friends questions my chiropractor friend and resulted in him giving me that book.
Now what book is she referring to she's referring to that in-depth treatise of theology called Rome sweet home by Scott and Kimberly Hahn. That book that makes a knowledgeable Protestant to just sit there and Scratch his head as to how someone who can claim to have been a knowledgeable Protestant could say these things but that's the book that was given to her, but note something if if the Timeline here is to be trusted.
Then patty patrick bonds goes to mass and she has this this subjective experience when the Eucharist comes. I knew Jesus was there and I know that for people Especially former Catholics just don't understand that part because they go it was man It was all the formalism that drove me out of the church.
It was just it was just empty and had no meaning and and so on so forth that I understand that I also understand the Attraction for people who've never been Roman Catholics. I also stand understand that when a Mormon hears something like this The Mormon also has their subjective emotional experiences, and we've all heard Them talk about how they knew that the church was true because of a certain experience and so on so forth but if this timelines to be accepted then this this this experience the subjective experience comes before the reading of Rome sweet home and Then she says she starts looking for objective materials.
Wait a minute. What where did the objectivity go here? Rome sweet home is an objective source of information. All the real turning points here all subjective in nature, they're all emotional in nature not objective in nature this study of early church fathers hasn't included anything that Would come from any other perspective other than that of Rome.
So how can how can that be considered to be? Objective. Well, that of course is the problem that we have.
Forever thank God for Marie. Patiently she endured my battery of questions on a daily basis. I'm sure she got up every morning came to work. What now? What does she want to know now. And She she did an excellent job of helping me search out the scriptures and search out the early church and and answer all those questions.
This is in reference to Scott Hahn's secretary Marie, I guess is her name and Note something. This is still prior to Her anonymously contacting me and I've put stuff together over the course of the past a year and a half or more now.
And what I think it happened is I think she had read one book. She says later on she read the book on Mary now. She has never offered a single response to a single fact in that book. But she says later on the program.
She had read the book on Mary. Now in the anonymous letter that she sent to me which went to an old address. It was as I've mentioned that the the letters on our website if you want to go read it and my response on the website.
And I'm still saying the same things today. I said then. The the anonymous letter however in what it says indicates to me that she had now picked up she said in another I think on The coming home network that she then had to face my books after this period of time.
She's already in touch with the Han. She's already Convinced that Jesus and Matt she's already made the move. It's just that that cleanup period in essence. And so I think she picked up the Roman Catholic controversy or that her fatal flaw.
But I think it was Roman Catholic controversy because she mentions the emphasis upon grace. And of course, what's the form the you know, the primary thrust of of the Roman Catholic controversy? But the fact that Rome's gospel cannot save Rome's gospel cannot give you peace.
You cannot join works of merit with grace and it still be grace Romans 11 6. So I get the feeling that this all this it's very clear. All this anyways takes place prior to the very first contact with me, which is done anonymously and so, you know that sort of Gives you some idea of the connection here now, it's very very interesting this next section this is in response to a caller who asks again specifically about me and her relationship to me and Note, let me make sure I've got the right one queued up here note note the response that is this given.
I am you know, listen to any of his anti-catholic stuff usually because I said. My exposure to that was some bits I heard on radio, but also the post debate conversations in my parents home usually as they kind of rehashed what what had been discussed and and What their feelings about it were.
We were raised from the same standpoint As far as Catholicism goes so other than some fine details I knew where he was coming from and because I felt that I probably wouldn't get the fairest shake as far as Let me put yourself in his shoes if your sister came along and said, you know, I'm seriously considering becoming a Catholic.
He would probably have a bit of an emotional response as well as as a you know academic response. And I wanted to avoid that complication. So at one point I was communicating with him anonymously as a just a normal Inquirer under an anonymous address because I wanted to avoid the the familial Complications and just get objective information from him and I did attempt to do that.
He answered one of those emails, but not any of the others. So I did attempt that route, but We never sat down over a table and a cup of coffee and and and discussed Should I become a Catholic or not?
Because as I had predicted his first letter was Very negative about it and every letter since then has been very negative. So You know, I've never consulted him on my decision I.
Appreciate the last statement. I think if it were taken seriously by anybody Then appearances on Catholic answers live and All references to my name would be taken down, but that's not going to happen.
She did not consult now one thing that comes out in that statement. However, that's very very interesting is This this seems to be the new Direction that she's attempting to take she says that other than some fine details.
She knew what my position would be that is simply untrue. I Mean fine details and in essence what she's saying is since we grew up in the same home I knew what he knew that is not the case and I asked my father recently I said would it be as a fair statement to say that you have learned far more about Roman Catholic dogma and theology from me than I ever could have learned from you.
And he said well, of course I mean, that's not that was never his area of study or expertise or anything of the kind. It wasn't mine when I started off making ministries. We were dealing with Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses.
We were dragged into this area was not out of real desire to launch into this. I'm not a former Catholic or anything of the kind. That's what I think drives some of these folks nuts. Is that there is.
I don't have an axe to grind in that issue. We got drawn into this by Consistency if I was saying to the Mormons you're wrong to denial to deny sola scriptura. Then I need to say the same thing to the Roman Catholics who are just as vociferous in their denial of sola scriptura.
And so the idea that well except for some fine details. That has been completely blown away of late. A man wrote to Mike gendron's ministry. Mike forwarded it to me. I wrote to him and CC these things to Patty and she became involved briefly in a in an email discussion and I I Provided a tremendous amount of documentation.
Many people have read these. Many people have read these these emails. They were they were CC'd all sorts of folks and I know that Patty has given my emails to a bunch of folks. I've talked to people in AOL who've read my emails to her.
So that that's nothing unusual and Everybody who's read them will tell you that I presented issue after issue documented fact after documented fact citations from patristic sources. Facts from history facts in the Bible facts from the original languages.
Not a single issue has ever received a response. Not a single one. She later on in fact, we're gonna play the section a little bit later on. Talks about Augustine and being able to well, in fact come to think of it as I look at it now.
That's the next next section that I'm gonna play here, but she keeps saying well, there's just some fine details. I didn't know that is not the case growing up in the same family since 99 of what I know of Roman Catholicism.
I learned as an adult. Growing up in the same family is not in any way shape or form gonna give her what she says she had. That's that's just that's just a fact. I'm thankful that she's saying I've never consulted him on my decision because that's true.
She did not consider me objective enough, but Scott Hahn is. Isn't that a fascinating concept? I think that definitely speaks to the to the issue at the moment. Wait, I'm gonna restart this. I would love to sit down with this fella this young guy calls in he sounds so so sincere so I Would just I he couldn't possibly have read much of my stuff.
He couldn't possibly have heard many of the debates from what he says here because he has such a naive View of the early church fathers if this young man ever hears this, please let's sit down. I have a few things I'd like to show you.
When I heard that you you know, you were the sister of James White. What I do. If it's easy for me to understand how many people can read the scriptures and come up with different interpretation. Understand.
And perhaps you can shed some light on this. I Don't understand that you could study church history read the church fathers. Because I know that Protestant scholars such as your brother and people like Eric Stanton have you know Get hold of the same church fathers in the same church history that that Catholics do.
Why why don't why don't they convert when?
They read these things that seems to me that the church fathers are pretty clear. Well James I share your confusion and your perplexed Reaction to that because I'm going through the same thing on an ongoing basis with my brother I Remember early on after they learned of my conversion.
He sent me pages and pages and pages of Quotes from st. Augustine. St. Augustine. I always say his name wrong poor guy. That's what they call the city in Florida. Yeah, let's see where I picked it up.
But anyway, I just pages of them and trying to convince me that he didn't believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, well, I could probably bury him, you know in volumes of St. Augustine where he's very very pointed very detailed about the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist now.
Where if I heard that before it harkens back to 1993 when Patrick Madrid stood before an audience and said I could bury James in quotes from the early church Fathers on solo script or against solo script or and all the rest that stuff.
These are the same folks who won't touch the Webster King three volumes set on soul script or but anyways. Actually what I wrote to my sister had to do with Augustine's doctrine of the physical body of Christ and where that is located.
If she were familiar at all with this issue, she knows that there is a difference should know that is a difference between real presence and transubstantiation that Real presence does not imply in fact Transubstantiation that's an anachronistic interpretation.
It wasn't pages and pages and pages. There was just and there were a number of quotes. But if they took up more than two pages, I'd be very surprised. It sounds like it was, you know, 20 pages. I'm like that.
It wasn't just a few pages. And what was her response? She sent them to Tim Staples. Yes. That scholar of church history Tim Staples and I never heard from her or him in Response to any of that information until this statement that she could bury me with references the real presence well the problem is that scholars recognize that because of Augustine's doctrine of the physical presence of Christ in the sense of his physical body is reserved in heaven and the church is Deprived of the physical presence of Christ.
It was his influence that had to be overcome for transubstantiation become established about 700 years after his death. Now again, these are just simple factual things. I know that David Bjork didn't tell her about these things.
I know that she didn't read this in this rock. I know the Hans aren't gonna talk to her about this the Hans secretary isn't gonna send her this information. They wanted to become a Roman Catholic but the objective person who wants to examine history has to examine these things and to misrepresent what I said and I even I even asked her in a well instant message said don't you remember what I said and She she said well you go ahead and tell me because as if she admitted she's deleted all my emails.
I forget how she put. I think she said she purged her house of error. And got rid of all my eat all the emails. So I'm the one who has the emails now and so I can provide these emails where I specifically said Pat How do you respond to this because she had sent me I eventually dug out the rest of these anonymous emails that she had sent to me and There were links to a Scott Hahn Discussions and to Transcripts of talks that he had given and so I pointed out some of the things that he had said and I gave her a response and One of the things I responded to was something he said about Augusta what he said about the early church fathers and the doctrine Transplantation and I've got never gotten a response and don't expect to ever get a response.
She obviously did not know what my response was the time for conversion hence the objectivity thing goes out the window. And I was simply pointing out to her look. Here's where there is a problem with the information that you're relying on for the decisions that you're making.
Do I get a response? No, what the response that I get is is anyone who has seen those? Is is oh, I wish you'd just stop raging at the church. You're so filled with anger and hatred and It's interesting that when people when when people don't have an answer for something then the only only way is to Project on to them some sort of feelings that allow you to then ignore what they're actually Saying and that becomes patently clear when we get to the issue of an email that she sent to me.
And I respond to recently listen to this.
In order to prove his point and I can tell you exactly why I had a conversation with him Just this past week through email and I asked him. Have you ever at some point in time? Ever considered the possibility that the Catholic Church is true.
That's right. And his answer with conditions that I won't bore you with because they're just beyond imagination. But his answer is no. In other words at no point in time has he ever given any objective thought? to the Catholic faith.
Wow.
That's incredible, I've never done that huh? I'm sure it's exactly what I said in email, right? Well, no, that's not what I said in the email. But first of all, I'd like to I'd like to back up a second and examine this epistemology.
Does that mean that everyone is to give? Objective examination to the possibility that every religion on the planet is true. I Mean has she ever given objective examination to the watchtower Bible and tract society.
Mormonism. Baha 'i? Buddhism. Hinduism. Has she read the Bhagavad Gita the Quran possibly. If she hasn't then how can she possibly say they're wrong? Well, I'm asking for consistency and that's not we've got here.
But the worst thing is that that's not what the email said. I knew when I got this email sometime I forget I think it's around the second or so. It was right before I left on my trip. Here's what the email said quote.
I have a question for you. Was there ever a moment in time when you considered that pot that Possibility that the Catholic Church was correct in its teachings just a yes or no, please. That's what showed up now.
I knew what this was about. I knew she was getting ready for the program and I knew that my response was going to be used in the program. But I really didn't expect that the vast majority of the response would be completely and utterly ignored.
Here is the response that I actually shared with some people in our chat channel when I wrote it. Yes or no questions are for issues that are simple in their resolution. To consider such a possibility would require me to one.
Not only consider but conclude that the Bible is not God's Word. That it is errant and uninspired unintelligible or self-contradictory. To not only consider but conclude that the gospel of grace is a sham and that Christ's death could not be perfect and complete in of Itself.
Three not only consider but conclude that history is irrelevant to truth. The Christ true church could engage in Crusades and Inquisitions even imprisoning torturing and murdering Christian women and young people.
For quote refusing to gaze adoringly at the sacrament and quote etc in light of the above qualifications. No, it could not possibly cross my mind. That's what I sent back and Anyone who hears that knows what I was saying that given the fact that I am convinced that the Bible is God's Word.
That I do not need an infallible Magisterium to tell me what it says that Rome in its many of its theologians today. I do not even function on the idea that it's that it is an errant in any way shape or form.
In fact, I was just reading a document on the Vatican webpage earlier this week. That is based entirely and completely upon redaction criticism of the Gospels. It's right there on the Vatican website.
Sort of doubt that it's gonna end up in the page of this rock magazine. I don't know that my sister will ever run across it and now she's blocked all my AOL instant messages and my email addresses. I don't know that I can tell her about it.
But I would be very interested if someone else might let her know. That she might want to go and read some of the documents on the Vatican website and see for herself but also that what I'm saying in regards to the gospel is that to Consider the concept that Rome is true would mean that I would have to conclude That the death of Christ is imperfect in of itself.
This is referring to the doctrine of the mass and the whole concept of purgatory and and all the other things associated with that that I have obviously very fully addressed in the past in the debate with with Stravinsky's and so on and so forth.
And Third that that history cannot tell us anything. That is that I can look at all of the the bishops of the Council of Nicaea. Discover that they did not believe what my sister believes about Mary or the papacy or purgatory or indulgences or things like that.
But there's still Roman Catholics and then I can look at the pornocracy. I can look at the Inquisitions. I can look at what Rome did Specifically and I was quoting purposefully there in Imprisoning and torturing people for refusing to gaze adoringly at the sacrament.
These things are all facts of history. She may not know about them. That doesn't mean that they're not facts and So in light of those things and I said in light of the above qualifications. No, it could not possibly cross my mind because of the fact that I believe the Bible's Word of God.
I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and I have studied history. Now that was a little fuller response than I think she wanted to try to communicate on Catholic answers live and Therefore it simply becomes Truncated and as a result, I think anyone will agree grossly Misrepresented as well.
And so is that objective? No, I I don't believe that that is in any way shape or form an objective way Doing things at all. I'm not sure if we have time to sneak another call in here. So let's go ahead and Go go where?
Go with a call or go with the break. The word go does not tell me go ahead. Go with the call I'm going to interpret that to mean. Here's the next section of the interview.
Recording a heretics from the from the early centuries that was called Catholics. Do you prove that the early church wasn't Catholic, but they're proving Catholics. That's part of my confusion.
You know what? I call it this you got to wear the right glasses and for years and years and years I wore Protestant glasses. So when I read the scriptures they read Protestant and when I first started to study when I tried to read the Catechism I couldn't read it.
I could not read Catholic. It made no sense. It wasn't until I gave that objective thought till I opened my mind to the possibility that I wasn't 100 right on everything that maybe they had it right somewhere.
You have to be open to that objectivity. If you're not you read everything you see through a grid a Protestant grid and I believe that apologists like my brother and like the other gentleman you mentioned.
They read everything they read including the early church fathers through that grid of how can I prove the church wrong not? From a perspective of could they possibly be right? And if you don't have that objectivity, you're never going to see the truth.
Oh my oh my oh my.
Anyone who has dealt with Roman Catholic apologists knows that the glasses are cemented on their face not ours. I'm not the one representing a system that invests in the early church fathers Authority as the containers of tradition.
I'm not the one that represents a system that it talks about the unanimous consent of the church the unanimous opinion of the fathers. Etc. Etc. I'm not the one that has to defend those things. I can let the early church fathers be the early church fathers.
I can take the good and get rid of the bad. I don't have to make them anything other than what they were. It's the Roman Catholic that has to do so. It's the Roman Catholic apologists that cannot deal with Ambrose the aster's use of sola fide in his commentaries on Romans.
It's the Roman Catholic apologists that cannot deal with Clements discussion of justification by faith with the epistle to Diognesius having a clear discussion of imputation by faith of the righteousness of Christ.
Those are the things you never see in the pages of their books because they have to put on those lenses and read the early church fathers and the scriptures in the light of the ultimate authority of The epistemological claims of Rome.
I'm not the one that has to do that. My sister or in their Roman Catholic apologists are not examining the scriptures or church history objectively. In fact, they are forbidden from doing so. Haven't you ever heard Roman Catholics talking about that's private interpretation.
Well, everything that she's giving is private interpretation. This is objective. This is consistent in no way shape or form. Of course not an Amazing assertion. I would love to talk to that young man.
All the early church fathers were Catholics. Well, I'd like to find out why all those early church fathers who were Catholics said so many things in a modern Roman Catholic Would never ever say I would love to sit down with that young man and explain those things to him because here is the result of the Truncated Misrepresentations of groups like Catholic answers and Envoy magazine these others that do not do what my sister wants them to do and that is Objectively present the facts.
Well few more cuts I don't know if we could get them all in on the program today. But we're gonna continue trying responding to Catholic answers live here on the dividing line man.
Today So many stars strong and true.
Quickly fall away. What is dr Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book. Chosen, but free. A new cult. Secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.
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Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul II to recognize the Virgin Mary as co-redeemer with Christ. Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion.
In his book Mary another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic. He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God Has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed Queen of Heaven.
Viewed as co-mediator with Christ and now recognized as co-redeemer by many in the Roman Catholic Church Mary another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman The Bible calls a blessed among women and an invitation to single-minded devotion to God's truth.
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Indeed here we stand on the unchanging Word of God giving a response. Even when a member of your family is the one giving the falses. And by the way this misrepresentation at email I sent didn't happen just once in the program.
It wasn't just oh she forgot to give all the details. Here is something a little bit later on the program.
Made the statement to me that he has never considered even the possibility that the Catholic Church is true, so.
Well, I think that's going to become a mantra evidently. But you know the truth because you now have actually heard what it was that I've read to you exactly what I did say, and it would be nice if if someday that information is actually Actually dealt with in this next section remember.
We're talking about someone who talks about objectively examining the truth. Let's let's listen to what this this next section of the program said at Christmas of 99.
I was explaining to one of my daughters as we drove around looking at Christmas lights. And she asked why do those Catholics make so much about Mary. And I had just finished my brother's book on Mary so I launched Into you know it's just quite launch easily Into a sermon that on what was wrong with the Catholics view of Mary.
At Christmas of 2000 I was teaching them the Hail Mary. That's how much work I had done in a single year. I Went from viewing her as just apparently a very honorable Jewish girl To viewing her as not just my mommy.
But my queen and I call her mommy because you guys aren't mom so you don't know what that means. But when I have teenage daughters and when a when an a nearly adult child still calls you mommy. That's an honor.
That's it's a precious thing. So if you were to crawl into my secret prayers I often call her mommy because that's what she's become to me an incredible comfort and incredible prayer warrior and Incredible protectress.
In fact I went through Mary in consecration before my confirmation. Well, you know.
There you go. Why no responses to the documentation in the book on Mary? Concerning the the early church I don't know especially in light of this cut. Which which talks about? What's really important to her bittering?
The church. I would I.
Would say that For me it was a matter of finding out What it was that came out of the lips of Jesus and the Apostles.
Now you hear that what came out of the mouth of Jesus and the Apostles. Now if you're not familiar with Roman Catholicism, what is in essence is being said there is Sacred tradition. She is making appeal at that point to what she would call sacred tradition and that this is what came out of the mouth of Jesus and the Apostles now.
Obviously as I have shown in debate with Jerry Matta ticks with the Mitchell Pacwa The only thing that we know for certain that came out of the mouth of Jesus and the Apostles is what is inspired scripture?
Mitch Pacwa I asked him in December of 1990s. 1999 San Diego. Can you show us a single word that the Roman Catholic Church is dogmatically defined was spoken by Jesus or the Apostles? That has not found scripture.
And that man's response was No, I cannot. We have not defined anything. So how ironic is it? That in in making this statement The the truth is being told it is vital to know What Jesus and the Apostles said and the only thing we know they said is what is in the God breathed? scriptures.
A truly incredible Statement. When I when I heard it made.
I would challenge any Inquirer to spend their time. You don't even necessarily have to get a catechism or consider Catholic claims right off. I think the best thing to do is to start with your own faith tradition.
Read the first three or four centuries of church and ask yourself. Is that my faith tradition? Is that what it looks like when I go to church if st. Augustine showed up in my town Phoenix, Arizona tomorrow.
Or on Sunday, where would he go to church?
Well, that's fascinating. And that's why I asked an email. Well Well, Patti, what what about Augustine and Zosimas? What about Augustine telling the Pope to? Keep his nose out of North African affairs rebuking him on his Pelagian things.
What about gustin statements about scripture the Holy Spirit giving the Canon to the church not the church to terminate themselves. What about Augustine's doctrine of predestination, what about Augustine's doctrines concerning the physical body of Jesus Christ.
I mean, I don't know that he'd recognize the Roman Catholic Church in that way now, would he? What about the other early church fathers and and every time I'd ask about ambrosia stir or Mothatase or Clement or any of these these things all I'd get back was you're so angry.
You're so angry. You're so angry. And it's sad it is really sad that someone would go Into the the public forum and make these statements when Then when I turn around and I challenge them All I get in Response is well, you're angry.
And like I said, I can't even communicate with her now. She's blocked a well in some message she blocked my The Letters and that I tried to send her by email and so on and so forth. So it's a It's a sad thing to to observe those things and to hear this kind of stuff being said this next one's rather troubling as well.
With what drove my study. And I guarantee you you cannot send somebody who will be objective. That's the condition because like we talked about a minute ago They've got to be willing to be objective and to take off those Protestant glasses and look honestly.
With an open heart. And if they'll do that and they'll read those first three or four centuries of church I guarantee you it'll shake their world. Yeah, what it was. Cardinal Newman said something to that effect.
Right to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant. I Tell you when.
When people quote that thing to me, I just uh, I Mentioned it earlier. What's an incredible statement? To be deep in history is to allow history. To speak for itself. Rome isn't deep in history. Rome is deep in revising history.
This is the system that's based upon forgeries like the donation of Constantine and the pseudo is a Dorian decretals. It just it just you know, if I had hair I'd pull it out when you hear that kind of statement.
Reading the father's objectively and I absolutely positive. I just asked people. Listen to the listen to the debate between myself and Jerry meditates on the historical information regarding the papacy.
It is absolutely positively amazing. It was not even close. We have never had any challenge. Listen, listen to all the ones in the papers. Listen to one with some Jennison Butler. The Catholics that were there the Catholic priests that arranged that debate said.
Said after the debate, where's Timothy McVeigh when you need him? No, where's the Unabomber when you need him? I mean Absolutely. Absolutely. Incredible. Listen to the pack with debate. That was a nice fair kind debate.
Unbelievable, I. Very difficult to know how to respond to that kind of a statement because it just it could never possibly survive. Any type of rational dialogue and that's why I guess I've been I've been cut off now really sadly.
Very very very sadly is this next section now, you'll notice this poor Protestant lady gets to ask a question then she's gone. That's why you don't call in on these programs. Because you'll never ever ever manage to get a word in edgewise, but Listen to this next section.
It's about two and a half minutes long. So it's gonna take a few moments. Just just listen.
Salvation was believing on Jesus Christ alone. Am I correct? Mm-hmm. Yes, you did. Okay, then why does Paul say that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ? Okay, I'd like to refer you back to a man named Abraham.
I'm sure you're familiar with him and Justification is an interesting thing in his life because if you read the book of James James makes the point of talking about his Justification Being because it is believing God, right?
But if you got a pencil and you want to write down a couple of references I'd like to send you to and Genesis 12 1 through 4 Abraham believes God and obeys him which is Pretty much what the Protestant view of salvation is.
I believe God. I have faith and I and I act on that faith, right? So in Genesis 12, he's believing and acting and then in Genesis 15, which is what James had reference to. That's where he believes God and God makes a covenant with him.
Concerning him being a father of a great nation. And then in Genesis 22 Abraham offers Isaac and in James you hear James referring back to actually I was wrong and James Is referring back to Abraham offering Isaac and that that was what justified him.
So we see justification or in our, you know Protestant terminology salvation appearing at three different times decades apart in Abraham's life. This is an interesting subject for me. I'm writing an article right now called the confessions of a trickle-dipper because I Spent so much time trying to pinpoint when in my life I really believe God well enough and and you know, I really knew what I was doing in my commitment to Christ and That led to a very common Protestant practice in my denomination.
Anyway of being re-baptized if you figure out that well, you know now I really do believe and then I wasn't really sure. And so I as a result, I ended up being baptized three different times trying to find out When in my life did I really come to excuse me faith in Christ?
Well, it's kind of like Abraham I had three milestones in my life where I had followed the Lord and believed him and obeyed him and So I guess if baptism had been a sign of Abraham's belief, he would have been a triple-dipper, too.
Well, there you go.
That is the Robertson Genesis Genesis 12 Genesis 15 Genesis 22 Abraham's justified three times defense. Which we dealt with of course in the debate on justification with a mistress in Genesis and what happened is I Asked Patti Patrick bonds in our AOL instant message.
What is the reformed response to that? I Mean, she's objective. She was a hyper Calvinist, which she I guess understood as being a real Rabid one. So what's the response that if it was just a few fine details that you did not know of my position then How do I respond to that?
There is a whole section on this of course in my book the God who justifies. There's a 24 page chapter on James chapter 2. That I don't think she's ever seen the book and I haven't basically wanted to send a book on a suicide mission.
By sending it over there right now because I I can guarantee you one thing it would not get an objective reading. So What is the response. And I kept asking that question and that just got her angrier and angrier because she doesn't know she has no idea at all what the response is and That's the that's the shame that someone say well a lot of people don't know how to respond to that that's true.
But they weren't being put on Catholic answers live and they weren't being touted as someone who knows something about theology and apologetics. And you see I don't hold her accountable for that. God will but I don't.
I hold Catholic answers accountable for that because they don't have an answer either. That's why they won't debate the subject. For those who are interested that entire argument is an argument against Paul's own interpretation of Genesis 15 6 as found in Romans chapter 4 verses 9 and 10.
What does it say Romans 4 9 is this blessing then on the circumcised or on the uncircumcised also for we say faith Was credited to Abraham his righteousness. How then was it credited while he was circumcised or uncircumcised.
Not while circumcised but while Uncircumcised now, you know the argument. The argument that Paul is presenting is that Abraham was justified in God's sight. While Uncircumcised that faith Preceded the giving of the sign of circumcision.
Now if you take the position that St. Genes utilizes and that was just repeated with a few hiccups and bumps, but pretty much repeated almost verbatim by Patti Patrick bonds. Paul's entire argument is set on its head.
This is an argument with Scripture not arguing with Protestants. It just happens that at this point Protestants believe the scriptures and Catholics don't the scripture says that Righteousness was credited prior to receiving circumcision now.
He received circumcision between Genesis 15 Genesis 22 if you say and this is why you cannot interpret James chapter 2 this way. But if you say that Abraham is justified in Genesis 22 in the way that he's justified in Genesis 15 6.
Which he was not if you allow James chapter 2 to speak for itself. But if you say that as was just said By Patti Patrick bonds on Catholic answers live to a national audience to a Protestant lady. Then you are handing to Paul's opponents The complete victory because all they have to do to respond to Romans 410 is to say well is credited both.
It was credited back in Genesis 12, you know. No promises were given to him hence how I could have saving faith. But it was given in Genesis 12 in Genesis 15 in Genesis 22. So Paul your points completely wrong.
Amazing to find people Arguing against the Apostles themselves and why they do so because their ultimate authority is not the Apostles. It is the Roman Catholic Church. Now a number of people then called in we're just gonna throw a few quick ones in here and this one was fascinating.
Truly fascinating and that is Someone calling into saying how they've been praying for my conversion and they put a piece of paper in the wailing wall in Jerusalem that I would be Converted listen this.
How are you?
I wanted to let Patti know that I've been praying for James's conversion for a long time. Thank you. When I visited the Holy Land in the Jubilee year. I Put his name on a prayer request and stuck it in the wailing wall.
So I have hope that he'll come home. I was overwhelmed when the news of my story came out by the outpouring of love. Not just for me. In fact, sometimes my conversion was a secondary thought. They were writing to say how much they've prayed and labored in prayer for my brother and I just was blown away by it.
Thank you. Well, you know, I I hate to be you know The wet blanket here because in the post-modern world, you're supposed to go. Oh, isn't that sweet? And that's lovely. Some of you may have seen the article on our website where someone had a mass card.
Had a mass set in my name and what my response to that was. I don't appreciate that in any way shape or form. The mass is a blasphemy against the finished work of Jesus Christ and I would appreciate if you would not insult the cross of Christ in that way, but.
Is it isn't it wonderful that someone would put your name on a card and put in the wailing wall? Um, you know, the first thought that crossed my mind is why would you do that? Your God can't change my heart.
You're so you're so. Involved in in in the the idol of human autonomy and free will your God can't change my heart. So why would you even do I've never understood that as it bothered anyone else? Why in the world if I pray for someone my God can take out a heart of stone give you a heart of flesh.
He's the guy that knocks Paul off of his horse and converts him. He's he's the God who can powerfully save Rome with its synergism. Rome with its its grace that can be can be resisted and destroyed and and and a work of Christ.
It isn't finished. Why in the world would you think that's going to accomplish anything? That's what crosses my mind. Absolutely amazing to me. Why why would someone do that? Obviously because they're not really familiar with what what the issues is and then another caller is pretty much long them along the same lines.
I briefly thank you. First of all for sharing this story. It's obviously very difficult, but also very inspirational for all of us. And it ties in with the last two comments and questions. If you could ask all of us who are listening, you know.
To pray in a certain way for your brother or other family members. But what what how would you like us to pray? I.
Guess pray for that objective moment of thought for for a kink in the armor somewhere where Someone's love or someone's truth gets through. I really don't know how to pray for them. I often sit before the Blessed Sacrament and just and just in tears, you know, how where do we begin?
I'm certainly glad it's your job God and not mine because I don't know where to begin. So I would just say please pray that someday the light dawns and that something gets through.
Something gets through. Well, what could possibly get through in light of the actual text of the email that she's basing these comments on this lack of Objectivism this objectivity. I'm sorry. What could possibly get through?
Well, I guess what could get through would be that I would no longer believe that the Word of God is consistent with itself. That it does not actually contain the very words of Jesus Christ and the Apostles.
It's it's it's inconsistent. Uninterpretable without some external authority I guess I could come to conclusion that what it teaches about the cross is not true that Hebrews 10 10 and 14 just don't exist in the canon of Scripture any longer and and that The fact that they say that Christ's death perfects those for whom it's made is irrelevant to the fact the mass In Roman Catholicism perfects no one and has never perfected anyone at all.
I suppose that could get through and and then I guess I could get through to some sort of view of history that Would allow me to simply pick and choose whatever points of history I want to emphasize and what I want to de-emphasize what really contains tradition what doesn't contain in tradition.
I I guess I could learn to interpret the action of every single early father in such a way that is positive to the Roman Catholic cause and and those those early church fathers like Cyprian or Vermillion who simply ripped the lips off of the Bishop of Rome such as Stephen and rightly so I could just simply Determine that they were sinful that they were they were having a bad day.
I suppose all those things could happen but again. What what force in the universe would cause you to start embracing such untruths? Well, it wouldn't be the Holy Spirit of God of that I can I can assure you.
And so when you pray for someone. What what does the Bible say about when you pray for someone. You pray that they would know the truth? You pray that they would grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And When you pray for someone in that way the Spirit of God is always going to direct a person in one direction. Isaiah 820 To the law and to the testimony if they do not speak in accordance with this there is no light in them.
There is no dawn in them. They may say many words, but there is no light and Of course, that is my desire. My desire is to see Patti Patrick bonds come to understand sola scriptura the inspiration of scripture to have a love for what the scriptures say that would as it does with all of the redeemed cause them to not hear the voice of someone else who would draw them away into false teaching and of course.
What we're going to continue doing here is provide a response. We'll respond to whoever and whatever they're saying. Because you see the Bible says that we are not to be ashamed of Christ or his gospel.
We are told that there will be those even amongst our families who oppose us even amongst our families. Who are opposed to the gospel message itself and that's not going to stop us from giving the clearest testimony.
And it doesn't matter whether it's Robertson Janice or Patti Patrick bonds or James Aiken. Who give false teaching concerning? James chapter 2. Concerning the nature of justification we are going to respond.
We're going to go to the Word of God and we're going to demonstrate what the Word of God says. And we're going to leave it in the hands of a loving Heavenly Father who blesses his truth. When that truth is proclaimed many people said oh this must be so difficult for you.
Well, it is only difficult in this sense. There are many many people who are far closer to me in The bonds of Jesus Christ than my sister was my sister separated herself from my family years before this ever happened.
We had not had a meaningful conversation in many many years before this happened. And so I can think of many people not only within my immediate family. But within my immediate circle of friends the members of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
My friends my dear friends in churches Reformed Baptist churches and other churches on Long Island for example in many places Across the United States that if they were to make this move it would truly Cause me significantly more personal pain Than this situation has this is simply a situation where where I have to give an answer.
We even had a man Stand up at the debate with mr Madrid and ask a question and and in a very cheeky way throw in the statement about my sister Patti Bonds and I think the one thing that Patrick Madrid did that really was completely classless as he jumped on it and talked about her story is going to be in surprised by truth 3.
I Thought that was his proper response should have been something along the lines of well, that's not an issue We should get into now. It's not part of the topic of the debate. I have to give an answer to those things.
That's fine. That's that's simply what an apologist does. But we will continue to do so to God's glory and honor because we've seen many people who upon seeing this discussion Seeing the going back and forth have realized that Rome doesn't have the truth.
And since God has made their hearts alive with a love for the truth. They have been edified thereby. Thanks for being with us today. We'll be back again next week on the dividing line. God bless.
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