Patty "Patrick" Bonds on the Catholic Answers Live

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Long Island Debates, Travel, and the Great Debate on Catholic Veneration

And welcome to the dividing line today. It's good to be back here in Phoenix, Arizona after a lengthy trip to the East Coast and the great debate 2002 seventh year we have done the great debates on Long Island.

I was thinking about that while we were back there. What a tremendous job Chris Arnzen has done in organizing those debates first two years with Jerry Matta ticks then with Mitchell Pacwa and then two years with Robertson genus we were Getting the mass debate with Robertson genus on mp3 yesterday.

And I was so catching sections of it and could not believe how nasty that debate Was. I'd totally forgotten just how in-your-face and and Means and genus was in that debate. I mean he took some really cheap shots that just went over like lead balloons.

It was really funny. But anyways, those are available that debate is available on mp3 now. If you haven't been noticing that right-hand column on the website. There is a bunch of mp3s up there available to you and all the techno geeks in the world are singing hallelujah as a result because they don't have to buy the tapes and then put into a machine and then digitize it and Then stick it in the mp3 player.

Which is what all cool people do is you listen to everything on mp3 now, so you don't have anything moving in there. It's just all digital and and little teeny tiny memory cards and cool fun stuff like that, and I fully understand that anyways.

Then after some genus we had Father Peter Stravinsky's last year on purgatory and then the debate this year Patrick Madrid former vice president of Catholic answers editor of envoy magazine we debated the subject of the veneration of Saints angels and images and I I talked with a lot of folks in channel.

I talked with folks at the various churches I went to before I went there because I went to Georgia first for about four or five days. Then up to Long Island and Everybody was going wow you know how how did how does anyone defend veneration of Saints angels and images and I said man?

That's that's my biggest problem. Is that 98 of the people walking in there have never heard a defense of the veneration of Saints angels and images and the very? fact that mr. Madrid's gonna present one and Present things that people never heard of before is two strikes against me.

I knew it was gonna be tough. I knew exactly where mr. Madrid was going to be going because he wrote a book on the subject and That's exactly where he did go in point of fact. He was Very very much right where I expected him to be as far as his presentation went and the focus was exactly what I expected it to be so the debate went exactly as I expected it to go and It is available already in audio anyways mp3 format at a omin org and we will be working on the video.

Had some problems with the video. Just basically not not because it wasn't human error it was equipment failure. We had a piece of equipment that just blew its mind right toward the middle of debate toward the end of the bait and I I was absolutely amazed as I saw the guys setting up Warren Smith flew out and Simon Escobedo and his daughter Angelique and my my wife and daughter were there was really to finally have some of my family get to attend the great debate and Big B was there and as everybody was setting up.

I was first of all very very impressed mr. Smith did a great job his first time he had done this and that's a lot of pressure to be under to To do it for the real thing the first time when it really really counts.

But what was absolutely amazing to me was? Was Warren would get on the phone and he'd he'd call rich back here in Phoenix, and he'd say rich. This doesn't look like it's going together right now. Rich doesn't have anything in front of him.

The equipment's all out there in in New York, and I kept watching as as Warren would say okay. No, where's that and then the things that quiet for a moment? He'd reach over and he'd grab something you throw a switch do whatever it is and I couldn't help but thinking of rich sitting back here.

Looking staring off into space. Visualizing all this equipment and guiding Warren especially as we got closer and closer to debate. Guiding him through these difficulties, and I couldn't help but think of the old Chess masters who would play blindfold chess.

I got into chess so much once that I could play blindfold chess. I could play the game without using a board. Now I can only play one person that way and the great grandmasters could pay play 150 people at once and win most of the games without using a single board.

I mean, it's just incredible how they could do that, but here's here's rich playing blindfold chess because. Especially when you looked at all the cables coming out of the various and sundry pieces of equipment over there.

Is just as complicated as any chess board could ever be so it was very very impressive how they managed to get that done. Well, like I said, we had one piece of equipment just go kaflouie halfway through the debate and and yeah, I know used to do that shamrock sporting laptops and anyone who has had to walk a a Salesman through fixing something on a computer both develops the patience of job and the ability to see things that don't actually exist.

Which is sort of scary, but anyways. Anyhow. It was really a very very impressive feat to see all this stuff come together and and we will have the debate available once we. Actually rich is sort of happy it happened because he now has an excuse to buy this piece of equipment that he says he needs.

To fix the video, you know, I think we could probably find other way of doing it. But hey, you know if it makes him happy makes him happy. And so he's gonna be getting his new toy this week and working on the video and hopefully we'll have that available in The not-too-distant future because it was an excellent debate to watch again.

Fundamentally the difference between solo scriptura and sola ecclesia. What is your ultimate authority? Is it the text of inspired scripture or is it's the traditions of a man-made religion and That came out again as normal with with great clarity in the course of this particular debate.

We had an excellent moderator, by the way, I was very impressed. Pastor Bill Shishko. I have preached in Bill Shishko's Church. He is pastor of one of the pastors of the Franklin Square Orthodox Presbyterian Church on Long Island and he has graded the debates.

He's done debate judging in the past and He ruled with an iron fist. One point in the debate. During the cross-examination. He just refused to sit in the back. He wanted to be close to the action. So he was actually sitting at the end of Patrick Madrid's table.

And so Patrick and I are facing each other asking questions going back and forth and he's timing it and when the time ran out. He had a gavel. So you got a picture as he's sitting behind Patrick. Patrick's sort of forgotten that he's even there.

That's the time runs out and he smacks the gavel on the table. And I think Patrick lost about seven years of growth. Right then in there. It was really really funny. So in the second section, we were just about out of time.

I looked at Patrick and said You're about to hear that sound again. He sort of looked the other direction and caught him before he brought the gavel down. So it's it went it went very very well. So as did everything else.

I mean speaking in Georgia, Massachusetts Trinity Fellowship Church in New Jersey Took me four hours and 20 minutes to drive 115 miles from Seaford, New York to to Tom's River, New Jersey. Because the Belt Parkway was a parking lot and The the Garden State Parkway was a parking lot.

I think that's what Parkway means you you park you get out of the way one of the two and So it was it was a mess getting down there, but wonderful opportunity of preaching the gospel down there preaching the gospel to folks at Bethlehem Bible Church up in Massachusetts West Broylston got to go to Northampton and See for example, David Brainerd's grave and got to see it was really cool an original letter from Jonathan Edwards.

Even got to see a set of sermon notes from Solomon Stoddard that were absolutely incredible. I'm serious It those of you who've read the Jonathan Edwards set the two-volume set or read part parts of it.

Who's read all it. You know that the font is extremely small I mean You had you literally have to use a magnifying glass to read the banner of truth to volume Jonathan Edwards set and that's about what six point font maybe if the handwritten Solomon Stoddard sermon notes were three point I would be surprised and Yet the librarian told me that if we had the time and she was in a big rush.

But if we had had the time to use a magnifying glass, you'd see that every single letter was readable. It's incredible I mean it was it was about the size of a three by five card. And yet written back in the in, you know, the 1730s and 40s and stuff like that was really really cool.

So I had an excellent time all the all the churches were great grace reform Baptist Church and we got to got to speak at Jim Capo's Church and Just just all over Long Island, and I'm very very thankful.

I Really really makes my trip to Long Island. And this was this is a 25-day trip much longer than I am accustomed to ever ever getting to to take I am a I am a homebody very very much so and Anyways, I was very very thankful that a gentleman who Came to know Christ through our ministry on Long Island.

He came to the debate with Robertson Janice on justification as a Catholic and Is now a member of a solid Baptist Church there on Long Island. This this brother is I'll just mention Brian and rich have been helping Chris Arnzen tremendously as Did Mary this year in setting up the debates and I just really want to thank Brian.

Because he gave me wheels. He allowed me to be mobile while I'm on Long Island and the fact the matter is I really am getting to know Long Island. Really? Well some folks on Long Island will tell you I was giving them directions and they live there as To how to get to where they wanted to go.

I've really started to learn the island real well. And so for me to have wheels really helps out a tremendous bit. I had this I had this Grand Prix, man I'm gonna tell you any of you who've ever been on Long Island know what I mean.

When you get on the southern state you need a car with an engine in it. Okay. This this thing was designed back when cars couldn't go more than 35 miles an hour and so it's got this these little loop entrances and you have about 70 yards at max and Some some I'd say maybe 50 at max to get up to full speed and what's full speed about 70 miles per hour.

So you're talking pedal to the metal. Hold on. Let's go. That's what you got to do and and exiting is the same thing. We were coming back from speaking one place and the exit came up and you literally had to go from 70 to 10 in.

Just a matter of feet. I mean you're talking digging the nose of the car into the ground before you're hanging a hard right just incredible. I'm just hoping that I can avoid tickets here in Phoenix once I start driving regularly around here because I did learn to drive as a New Yorker while I was on the Long Island because you've got to if you don't do that you get run over.

There's absolutely no love lost for for visitors on Long Island at all, but I'm not going anymore that because it's much more that I could say about it. Excellent trip. Thanks to all those who were involved and we look forward to next year next year right now tentatively.

We already have a yes from dr. Peter Kreeft and What we'd like to debate is the issue of the Roman Catholic priesthood. Is there such thing as a Sacramental celibate separated priesthood class of individuals who have special powers through ordination or is it what the Bible teaches that every single man woman and child who is in Christ is a believer priest and That there is no sacramental priesthood in The New Testament whatsoever that that is a innovation of man that in point of fact a compromises the singular The singular priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Patty Bonds, Catholic Answers Live, and the Charge of Being Used

That's hopefully what we'll end up talking about next year. Now right before the debate July 10th of last month right before the debate Catholic answers live had a guest on and I knew this was coming.

Of course. I I had heard about it. I Folks in the chat room keep me up to speed on things people send me emails all the time. Did you know that such-and-such and such-and-such? Well, my sister Patti Patrick bonds as she now calls herself was going to be on Catholic answers live and I had heard about this and I'll admit it is it is very very frustrating indeed.

Not so much what she's doing. I told her That this was going to happen. I Specifically said that that those people who know her and know of her conversion are not going to allow her to Just live a quiet life that they are going to use her.

They're going to force her to be something that she's not and that's exactly what has happened I have kept all the emails that we have exchanged back and forth and I can go back and Show back when she was saying well, I'm not gonna do anything publicly and I thought it out of them I can show where I said, I'm sorry, but you're used to these folks Only has to do with your attachment to my name and they're not gonna allow you to be quiet.

In fact, they're gonna force you to become something that you actually aren't and that's exactly what's taking place now I obviously am very saddened by what my sister is doing, but I am really much more Not not the term concern to be wrong.

I find it absolutely Disgusting what groups like Catholic answers are doing now. Let's think about let's listen. First of all to a clip How did Catholic answers start this off are they just simply talking about a convert to Catholicism.

No, of course not. Listen to Jerry Usher as he begins the program.

Patty Patrick Bond she is a recent convert to the Catholic faith, but just over a year or so ago. And We of course have had numerous converts to Catholicism on the program in the past. But not every one of them.

In fact, none of them up until today was related to James White who is a Well a well-known. I guess you'd call an anti-catholic. He has been involved in debates with say James Aiken from Catholic answers and others and his sister Patty Patrick Bonds joined the Catholic Church just as I said a little bit over a year ago now.

Listen, listen to what's being said there. Why is Patty Patrick Bonds on Catholic answers live? For only one reason because she's my sister. It has nothing to do with the reasons of her conversion what she knew before her conversion.

Anything else Catholic answers is putting her on because she's my sister now. These are the same individuals who will not debate me. Now. You just heard them say well James Aiken has debated him. Actually James Aiken did a I think it was a one-hour radio debate with me on KIXL radio.

We've discussed this before we've documented the fact that he grossly made errors on in regards to Greek syntax and lexicography and we played a section where someone even called in and asked him about that and he had no response in regards to The syntax of John 6 and so on so forth.

That's the only time James Aiken has done a formal debate with me and it was a radio debate. It was not in person. They call the Bible Answer Man appearance a debate. That wasn't a debate. Bible Answer Man is not debate.

There is not equal time periods. There's not opportunity for cross-examination. It's not on one subject. That's not a debate in any way shape or form. Mr. Aiken has agreed twice To be involved with the great debate on Long Island two times.

He has said to mr. Irons and okay, I'll be glad to do that. We'll do. He was scheduled to do the justification debate and I believe it was the year 2000. And I believe before that he had agreed to one as well every single time.

He has backed out. He will not debate me. We have we have had a standing challenge to Carl Keating since late September October of the year 1990 for 12 years we've been challenging Carl Keating and When Chris Arnson first contacted Carl Keating about coming out and being involved the great debate in the first few years.

We were doing it when he first said that you know, I'm Chris Arnson and I'm Arranging these debates on Long Island and this is how we're doing it. Carl's response was that sounds great. I'd be I'd be be very interested and who would I be debating?

Well, the process debaters James White. Well, I'm not interested. Well, why is that personal reasons and that's it? Carl Keating won't debate me. We went to San Diego we invited James Aiken and Carl Keating and and whoever from Catholic answers to Engage in the debate right there in their own hometown won't do it won't even show up.

So here you've got these individuals. Who we have responded to every time they've attempted at least to our knowledge. To respond to my books and to my materials in this rock magazine. We have fully refuted their efforts on our website that information is right there.

You can go to a omen org go to the Roman Catholic section. You'll see article after article. Refuting everything they've put into print. They won't debate. They've been refuted over and over again. They won't respond to the refutations.

But what will they do? They will take a housewife and put her on an apologetics program. And in fact, we're gonna hear a section later on where they actually allow her to start giving advice to apologists.

What kind of desperation is that? Absolutely positively. Incredible and so the people I hold accountable. Oh, what in the world was that? Oh, I bet you I didn't take turn my sounds off. That's good sounds off.

Sound off. There you go. I'm gonna find out who did that one to me here in a second. And anyways. They didn't even didn't even realize that I'm recording this thing and my sounds wrong anyways. That actually was rather fitting wasn't it?

These individuals who know that they cannot Answer direct cross-examination in a public setting and will not expose themselves to it. Will then pull a stunt like putting my sister on their national radio broadcast the day before debate on Long Island isn't that Amazing.

I think that shows us a lot about what these folks are all about. Well moving on. I have 17 clips to play and if I'm gonna get to all of them I'm gonna need to keep moving on very very quickly. I think the folks up at Northwest Community Church from which Patti Patrick Bonds Left would be very very interested in the description.

That mrs. Bonds gives of their church.

I would like you to do if you would for us is describe the church you left in order to become Catholic. Would you say that it was? Protestant fundamentalist evangelical or what? We were.

Also what I would describe is Hyper Calvinist, I would have described myself that way. In fact, I was very proud of being a Calvinist and.

Hyper Calvinist. Now I'm sure the folks at at Northwest Community Church would scratch their heads at such a description of them. Now after My sister's appearance and after the debate the next week I dropped into AOL instant message with her and I began asking her questions.

I didn't get a whole lot of answers. But one of the one of the questions I asked is are you aware of the fact that the term? Hyper-Calvinist has a specific meaning. That a hyper Calvinist is a person who denies that we have a responsibility to share the gospel.

Denies that we are commanded to preach the gospel. Denies that we can preach the gospel to all men. No, she wasn't aware of that she thought hyper Calvinist meant you were just really really a Calvinist.

Now folks if you're a Calvinist and you don't know what a hyper Calvinist is. That means you're not a very well-read Calvinist and here's one of the problems. These individuals are trying to turn Patti Patrick Bonds into something.

She never was. She had maybe read a few books. She'd heard a few tapes but she was not in a Reformed Church. Northwest Community is not a Reformed Church and So You immediately get the sense that many of the errors that she ends up making and there are a number of them that will be Noting that I brought up to her and asked well, are you familiar with the response to this?

Are you familiar with this and the only response I get back? Oh, you're raging against the church. You're angry against the church and all the rest of stuff. The reason she has no response is because she didn't know any of these things.

She may come to know it now. In fact, I found fascinating that I've discovered. She's now listening to my debates. She didn't before a conversion and in fact alleged, you know lit initially said she couldn't listen to because I was so intimidating and mean.

But now she can listen to them as a Roman Catholic. Why. Because she's she's being forced to become something that she never was and the thing it really bothers me is it's obvious to to Everybody that the reason these people are showing so much interest in her is not because of her.

If you go to her website and you take my name off of any every everything. There's not gonna be a reason for anyone to go that website. That's what's so sad. Here is these people are using her and once the use of her is over.

Well, where are they gonna be? Well, we'll find out. We'll find out in the not-too-distant future sadly, but right now they think this is hey, this this is great. We can't debate him. We we wouldn't dare do it, but we'll we'll throw somebody else out there and I'm sure it'll increase our donations and things like that.

You'll hear some of the people who call in who basically Bear out exactly what I'm saying about that. So anyways Let us press forward. Listen to this this little section here. I.

Wanted it birthed in me and I need to understand What people in that time of the church believed? Because it was obvious that it was nothing like I had expected it to be. So that kind of began my search for what was going on in the early church.

What would what did it mean to be a Catholic bishop and in the 300 from the 400.

Now over and over again. She's going to make the statement. She was looking for Objective information. That's why she wouldn't go to her pastor. That's why she wouldn't go to me. She claims she knows what we'd have to say how she would know that.

I don't know because as she admits All she heard was post debate discussions. She hadn't listened to any of my debates. How she would know how I would Talk to when when would I've ever had a conversation with her concerning what bishops in the 4th century believed or didn't believe.

Instead she goes to Roman Catholic sources and if we as we have documented on the website over and over and over again Rome is extremely selective in its utilization of what it calls tradition. It will only cite those early church fathers that it finds useful to cite but will ignore those other early church fathers that say things opposite of what modern Roman Catholicism and acronistically wishes to read back into the early church fathers and Given that she obviously never took the time to look at a good or Whitaker or salmon or any of the fine scholarly works produced by Protestants on these particular subjects.

How can it be said that she was objectively examining the early church so in the AOL instant message I asked her about various sundry early church fathers. Did you examine Ambrosia stir? I've sent her quotes from Ambrosia stirs commentary where uses the phrase sola fide faith alone.

And it's so common to hear Roman Catholic Luther made up faith alone insert into Romans 3 and all the rest that stuff and again any objective examination of those things would demonstrate that's not true and so How is this an objective thing if the only people you go to a Roman Catholics and we're gonna see how this just snowballs through the course of of the interview and through the course of the Callers who call in as well.

Let's try to sneak one more. One more a clip in before we take our first break.

Fascinating story and so you started studying church history after that I present. Well, yeah, I started reading more of what he had written and I Remembered that I had had a very brief conversation with a man who'd visited our church a couple years earlier.

Who so still a Protestant had spent some time studying the Catholic faith because he was a missionary in a Catholic country. And he had changed his opinions about the Catholic Church dramatically. And I remember what he said, even though I remained still very anti-catholic I remember for some reason what he said really stirred me and I felt that whatever it was he was doing he was on the right track and I told him so after the meeting so we had had this brief conversation and I decided that if I was going to get objective information from someone and I was afraid to go to my pastor because I already knew where they stood and I Was reluctant to go to my brother because I already know where he stood.

I had his books on my shelf. I Had listened to post-debate conversations. I knew where he stood I wanted to know where I could get some objective information somebody that didn't have a prejudice of any kind whether it was familial or you know theological where do I just find out what Catholics really believe so I Emailed him.

It took me a little work to find his address, but I got it and I emailed him I just want to understand what Catholics believe. Will you share with me some of the things you've learned?

Now who is Patty Patrick Bond speaking of there? She's speaking of a man by the name of David Bjork and She gets very upset with me when I mentioned the man's name. I think that any Christian would recognize that this is an individual who was functioning as a missionary for the missionary denomination in France and yet has basically adopted Roman Catholic practices and positions and If we're concerned about issues of truth then you expose those who are wolves in sheep's clothing and David Bjork is a wolf in sheep's clothing and I think the people in the missionary denomination need to be made aware of him and he needs to be dealt with.

Because I'd like to know what things he sent to Patty. I'd like to know if he sent her Information demonstrating that every single bishop at the Council of Nicaea in 325 would not have qualified as being a Roman Catholic today.

I would like to know if he sent her the contrast between the Council of Florence and its teachings on salvation and Vatican II and made her aware of the contradictions here and the necessary adoption of such theories as the development Hypothesis of Cardinal Newman and things like that.

I haven't heard any of that and in fact later on Patty's going to talk about Cardinal Newman's famous statement to go deep into history has ceased to be Protestant and as I pointed out to Patty at the time Of our AOL instant message and in letters that followed afterwards.

Could you explain if that is indeed true why? Cardinal Newman opposed the definition of papal infallibility and when that definition was then promulgated that he had to go back and rewrite Sections of his own works on history to fit the new reality.

Is that what it means to go deep into history is to change history so as to meet the dogmas of your church. I get no answers from those things instead. I just got a whole you're raging against the church.

You're angry. Well, you know people who don't have answers to truth will tend to want to believe that those who show them The truth are angry. They'll come up with some way to get around that and sadly that's the case here Objective information.

I don't think it was objective information. We continue listening to the Catholic answers live broadcast and providing a Response based upon truth you're on the dividing line. We'll be right back. Some religious place.

The Catholic Answers Interview and the Claim to Objectivity

The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine. In his book the God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of Justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.

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More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.

This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language?

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Org this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

How the pilgrims progress is not an easy way. It's a journey.

It's a walk of praise. And welcome back the dividing line with our new Steve camp bumper music mix. Great songs. Hope you're listening to that Cornerstone outro that we used. It couldn't be more appropriate in regards to its statement about praying to dead saints and so on and so forth and in fact, I think that song was Especially made.

But anyways, we are responding to the Catholic answers live program of July 10th. Jerry Usher interviewing Patti Patrick bonds. And by the way, mr. Usher if you would ever like to Demonstrate your apologetic abilities. I would be more than happy to Be on the program with you.

And if you'd like to come on our program, please feel free to do so. You know, it's funny if if half the things are said in these programs are true I would think that they would want to have me on Just to demonstrate how silly I am, but you know, I I never get the call.

We're the ones that issue the challenges and it's Catholic answers who challenged me to debate first. I said yes, but For some reason it just doesn't seem to go both directions. I I wonder why that is.

Well, we continue on here's a little bit of the next section of the interview.

Eucharist, Subjective Experience, and the Search for Objective Information

Five years very aware of the presence of God and walking with him intimately and and you know The scriptures say my sheep know my voice. And they know me. And when I went to mass and the Eucharist came I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Spirit of God had fallen that place and that Jesus was present.

And That sent me to the parking lot asking God an entire shopping list of questions. What about Mary. What about Saints. What about purgatory. What about working for our salvation. I was frantic. I had to have answers and that's pretty much what led me to Asking my friends questions my chiropractor friend and resulted in him giving me that book.

Now what book is she referring to she's referring to that in-depth treatise of theology called Rome sweet home by Scott and Kimberly Hahn. That book that makes a knowledgeable Protestant to just sit there and Scratch his head as to how someone who can claim to have been a knowledgeable Protestant could say these things but that's the book that was given to her, but note something if if the Timeline here is to be trusted.

Then patty patrick bonds goes to mass and she has this this subjective experience when the Eucharist comes. I knew Jesus was there and I know that for people Especially former Catholics just don't understand that part because they go it was man It was all the formalism that drove me out of the church.

It was just it was just empty and had no meaning and and so on so forth that I understand that I also understand the Attraction for people who've never been Roman Catholics. I also stand understand that when a Mormon hears something like this The Mormon also has their subjective emotional experiences, and we've all heard Them talk about how they knew that the church was true because of a certain experience and so on so forth but if this timelines to be accepted then this this this experience the subjective experience comes before the reading of Rome sweet home and Then she says she starts looking for objective materials.

Wait a minute. What where did the objectivity go here? Rome sweet home is an objective source of information. All the real turning points here all subjective in nature, they're all emotional in nature not objective in nature this study of early church fathers hasn't included anything that Would come from any other perspective other than that of Rome.

So how can how can that be considered to be? Objective. Well, that of course is the problem that we have.