Woke Economics with Nate Fischer

The Greatest Commandment and Loving God with All Our Being

When the Scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment, He replied, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

So, why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this?

It had everything to do with how we talk about the Bible. And specifically, or along with that, what we point to as the foundation of faith. Which for most Christians, unfortunately, is the Bible.

We need to do better. We need to love God with all our hearts, and stand unashamedly on the rock of His Word. We need to love the Lord with all of our souls, and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment that comes only from Him.

We need to love the Lord with our minds, and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world. We need to love the Lord our God with all our strength, and face the work of building a life-giving, God-honouring culture.

Join us for 10 days at the Runner Academy for Cultural Leadership as we consider how the Gospel influences all of life and culture, and the role that we have to play in applying foundational Christian thinking to every area of life.

Apologia Studios Promos and Show Openings

This is The Academy. I am Eli Ayala of Revealed Apologetics, and I will be bringing a six-part series on presuppositional apologetics. What is this called, The Apology Academy?

It's just called The Academy. What's up, everybody? My name is Pastor Jeff Durbin, and you're watching Collision Today. I'm going to be interacting with an atheist on TikTok. So here we go.

Unsupervised and unhinged.

Welcome back to Cultus the Aftermath.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Ask Me Anything. You are watching Apologia Radio's aftershow exclusively for all access.

Non-rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.

Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite? We're being delusional.

Delusional? Delusional's okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay.

It doesn't really hurt.

She hung up on me. What? What? What?

Courage, Discipleship, and Wisdom in Proverbs

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage. Go into all the world and make disciples.

Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

Bread gained by deceit is sweet to a man, but afterward his mouth will be full of gravel. Plans are established by counsel, by wise guidance wage war. Whoever goes about slandering reveals secrets, therefore do not associate with a simple babbler.

If one curses his father or his mother, his lamp will be put out in utter darkness. Not outer darkness. An inheritance gained hastily in the beginning will not be blessed in the end. Do not say, I will repay evil weight for the Lord, and he will deliver you.

Unequal weights are an abomination to the Lord, and false scales are not good. That is Proverbs 20, 17 to 23. What is up, everyone? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. Pastor Jeff is out of town this week, and so I am back in the saddle.

This is an unusual lineup. This is definitely a first lineup. So on my right here,.

What are they calling you? Extra Time Banegas? They call me Extra Time, but I was thinking it would be more appropriate to call me Extra Innings, because I'm a baseball fan. Okay. You're not allowed to name yourself.

Well, that's the thing. I was telling Jeff that you guys, I didn't name myself. Who named you? Jeff.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I do feel like Jeff named himself. He says that it was people in high school, but I didn't call him the Ninja. I never called him the Ninja. Personally, I don't know anybody.

Who calls him the Ninja. I don't either. Just himself. Right. Yeah, so I'm here co-hosting here with Luke. I'm getting another of, I guess, what, my 15 minutes of fame here on Apology Radio? Yeah, dude.

Maybe even 16. If you're lucky. Yeah, at some point, maybe I can host again. I don't know. Let us know. Do you like it when I host? Do you like it when Luke hosts? Do you like it when Jeff hosts? I can tell you half the time I'm hosting, people tune in and they're like, Jeff's not on there.

Oh, yeah. I can understand that. But we love Jeff. Unfortunately, he can't be with us today. Like you said, he's out of town. But I'm excited for this episode. I think we have some pretty cool stuff lined up.

Yeah, so I'll just get right into it. We actually, I had another guest lined up this weekend. They had to cancel on Monday. And so it worked out well because last week our friend Gabe Rensch from CrossPolitik and Fight Left Feast, he had messaged me and was like, Hey, I got this awesome dude that I'm representing.

He's going to be in Phoenix next week. He has time for an interview. Can you interview him? I was like, oh, I'm already booked, unfortunately. But it worked out well. The timing was well. So we just literally just met.

This is Nate Fisher, everyone, by the way. Super excited for the show. So yeah, today I'm hoping to Nate's kind of a you know a lot about a lot. There's a lot. I know something about a lot. But there's some things that he's some topics that he's very keen on like woke economics is what I want to kind of start with.

So yeah, so Nate, welcome. Just tell us about yourself and what you're up to and we'll go from there. Well, thanks and great to be here.

Glad the timing worked out. Glad I could join for this. So a couple of things I'm involved in actually been focusing these in some ways. I felt like I jumped into a movement. Started a lot of things, got involved in a lot or do a lot out there and have been actually focusing on the things that clearly fit from a product standpoint.

So new founding, principal business. My background, first of all, is business. I was in business for about eight years before I got into this space, which is really at the intersection of business and the world we're in here.

You could call it the Christian and political world. And my principal organization is New Founding, which is a venture firm focused on backing, building, and investing in companies that are at the intersections of these worlds.

Increasingly there's an opportunity for Christians to build businesses that capitalize on many cases an alienated customer base. A lot of people who have been offended by mainstream brands. A lot of people who want something different.

And that's been a really growing movement over the last couple of years. And we are focused on that at the venture level. So we work with those companies. We advise them. We have a lot of connections in the space.

We understand. We understand the moment. We understand a lot of the trends. We understand a lot of the paradigm shift happening. And use that both to identify opportunities and to work with and guide companies there.

And New Founding does a couple other things. It does talent placement where we'll help people get out of woke companies into non-woke companies. That's still sort of an earlier stage product. But at the same time there's enormous demand for that.

Probably at this point more on the talent side. There's a lot of people in our network. Increasingly we're out there working with companies. We do that sort of engineer, professional, executive level roles.

So our focus is really helping move often the sort of people that smaller businesses couldn't have attracted 20 years ago, 10 years ago. Those people are now ready to move. So that's a big part of it.

And then finally American Reformer. So this is a non-profit that we founded alongside New Founding. In many ways if you're building anything in venture, if you're building businesses, it's essential that you have a vision of what you're building to.

Or at least some guiding principles. And the dominant ones in Silicon Valley are not good. That's a big part of the problem. And unfortunately I think the evangelical world is its focus has not, as strongly as it should be, I think been an alternative positive vision.

So American Reformer was founded with Aaron Wren. And the goal is draw on historical, Protestant, cultural, and political thought. And really restore those in the church today. And then similarly, go on the offense to actually fight for Christian institutions.

I think there's a tendency to abandon institutions as they go, as they drift to the left, as has happened throughout American history. Our view is we shouldn't just reflexively abandon and leave and start a new one.

It's actually good to have institutions that Christians control. And if we built something, if there's a Christian college, then actually if it's going in the wrong direction, figure out what the playbook looks like to actually try to bring it back.

To work with them either positively offering vision or perhaps organizing people to actually push back. So American Reformer. And American Reformer has a journal. That's probably where it would be best known for most people.

We write a lot of articles on these topics. You could think of it as roughly in the same category as you could think of it as a Protestant first things. You could think of it in some ways in the same category as a gospel coalition, although with a very different viewpoint on that.

But that's been a great organization. It's had some great leaders. Josh Apatow is running that and that's.

Grown a lot over the last couple of years. Awesome. I don't want to get too far into this too fast, but I was just thinking as you were talking about positive alternatives, I think you're absolutely right.

So many Christians are like, oh, this company's doing this, this company's doing that. And we just pull away from those and abandon those, which isn't necessarily the wrong answer, but you're right in that there's not been enough Christians saying, well, why don't we start something that is positive, that is based on scripture, that is Christian.

And we definitely need more of that, especially in the business world. So I appreciate you coming from that direction, for sure. Before we get too far, I know Isaac really wanted to talk about some of your upbringing and your background, so I'll let you.

Go with that. Right, because I was thinking where I wanted to at least go with the conversation for me, a lot of the stuff I think that some things you know about a lot of things, some of those things, you definitely know more about it than a lot of us do.

And so for me, when I was listening to... Especially you. Especially me. But I was thinking, what are some things that I can contribute to this conversation? Not necessarily contribute, but things that I'd like to hear.

Because I was listening to an interview that you were on recently, and you mentioned your upbringing, that you're homeschooled. As I heard you talk, honestly, I was like, I like the way this guy thinks.

I think it's a healthy way for Christians to think. And my question was your upbringing, that type of cultivation, was there anything that you can remember that had a significant impact on you? And what kind of set you in this path as far as how you see the world from a Christian perspective?

Yes, so I've given huge credit to my mother, who was an early, one of the early homeschool... I could say pioneer. Certainly started in the I think around the late 80s, 89 or 90, which was early. And her approach to homeschooling was one that was...

She used a curriculum called Konos, which sort of was built on this idea that God is at the top of everything and every subject is shaped through a Christian worldview. And it was also in some ways a sort of multidisciplinary approach to learning a lot of things.

We would touch on a lot of subjects together. And so what I think that did is it was in some ways the opposite of a very memorization-based approach that you see in a lot of schooling, or a very segmented, discipline-specific approach.

And it was something that I think helped appreciate relationships between different disciplines, broader themes across that. And I think that was certainly that approach. That's also, I think, the way my mind naturally works.

So I tend toward... I would say I'm not great at specific memorization, but I do look at things from a mental model level and learn a model and then see the ability to apply that to another model. And what I would say is that's very helpful in a time like we're in where there's a lot of paradigm shift happening.

There's a lot of things changing and the old models don't work. And I think that... So I think it was the approach of homeschooling. I also think it was actually an approach that involved just a lot of freedom.

We probably, I think, studied about three hours a day and then would run around in our woods. It was in upstate New York. We had six acres of mostly swampland. And a brother about my age, a sister a little bit younger, and it was sort of a paradise for running around and declaring wars on each other and all that stuff.

And I think that actually... Too much rigid studying, I think, is not conducive to... It sort of stultifies the mind, actually, in many ways. Or it can. I mean, there's people who learn well that way.

I think I benefited from something that was pretty open in that approach. When we find ourselves today,.

The Negative World and the Shift from Positive to Hostile Christianity

You mentioned this kind of paradigm shift. We were, before the show, talking about the negative world. So, a couple of things. Can you kind of lay that out as far as that paradigm shift as far as the...

I forgot how you mentioned it as far as neutral, negative world, but how do you see education playing a part.

In the paradigm shift? I don't know if you can kind of... Sure. So, the framework, the negative world framework was introduced by Aaron Wren, who co-founded American Reformer with me, and really inspired a lot of the vision for what needed to happen there.

And Aaron... Sort of what made him famous in the space that he became well-known in is this concept, this framework of how pre... And he sort of roughly says, pre-'94, our society was a positive society for Christianity.

It was viewed positively. If you're a public figure, if you're a figure at all, it was viewed positively for you to be a Christian. And certainly, that was the era where there was a plausible claim to a moral majority.

We actually were on... The conservatives were a majority in the country. It was a world where, even if you weren't a very good Christian, if you're running for elected office, you would pretend to be a good Christian.

And then what Aaron says is that the sort of... Starting around 1994 up through about 2014 was what he called the neutral world, where the world was neutral toward Christianity and they'll reason with you, they'll treat you respectfully.

It was the world where Keller's model really became prominent, where Tim Keller would be winsome, and he would winsomely engage people and they would... The New York Times could give him a respectful interview and talk to him and engage.

And they don't necessarily believe it, and there's not necessarily sort of a need to pretend to be a Christian if you're running for office, as an example, but it's not a plus or a minus. And so much of, I think, the evangelical model, the dominant model in a lot of institutions we live in, was shaped during that neutral world.

Keller's influence being one example, but many, many other successful institutions grew out of that. And what we're in, as Aaron says, around 2014, really, I think Obergefell is the best measure of that, is a world that is sharply negative to Christianity, fundamentally.

If you are an Orthodox Christian, you will, doesn't matter how nice you are, how winsome you are, how reasonable you are, you will be regarded as hateful for that. You will be treated as it will be a liability.

And in many ways, even though that's about eight years, nine years ago, nine years ago now, I don't think that the model for the church in that world in America has been well developed. I mean, that's a pretty sharp departure from what really was decades and decades at least of that sort of positive world mentality and then this neutral world.

So you have this paradigm shift where the world's become hostile to Christianity. With that, I think there's sort of an implicit, there is a sense of actually a cultural revolution because so much of our culture was shaped by Christianity and was influenced by Christianity.

So if you reject Christianity, you really need to reject many, many, many other elements of our culture, elements of our society, elements of our law. It's become something that's sort of starkly illiberal in a sense.

So from a political standpoint, during the neutral world, it's, there was a broad sort of, there was a broad valuing by the church of liberal norms and classical liberal norms following rules of free speech, following rules like that because they protected us.

I think now we're seeing a world where people are becoming skeptical of whether those are enough when corporations will censor you for your Christian viewpoints, when essentially you'll have the entire society going against you or a large share of dominant society going against you.

So that's a shift that has profound implications across business, across politics, across Christianity and how do, how does the church and particularly how do Christians respond to that world is the big question that we are.

Working on addressing. So someone in the chat asked what happened in 94. Now I'm a few years older than you guys. I was 13 in 94. That was a year into Bill Clinton's presidency. I mean, I remember that shift.

I'm old enough that I remember feeling that shift. So I want you to answer that question more thoroughly, but I remember things, you know, and it's funny because now like, now looking back at some of the stuff that Clinton did which seemed so extreme then is just, this seems so tame compared to what, you know, Biden's regime is doing, but so anyways, why 94?

What was, why was there such a shift during that time?

So that's less, again Aaron Wren was the one who developed this, and so I don't want to speak too strong. I think that's a little rougher of a one than Obergefell was a very clear event, but I think it was what you see during Clinton's era.

I mean, I think sometime around then Don't Ask, Don't Tell came out. That's a great example if you're moving from one where society acknowledges that there is a norm and a violation of that norm and they're willing to enforce that to one where we at the very least we sort of live and let live to some extent and I again, I was I think I was nine or ten at that age and a very sheltered homeschooler in some ways, so I may not have seen those patterns, but I would say that was a broader one.

That would happen more and more in different cities and things probably some cities were much color, for instance, already been in New York, and I think that was well along by that time other parts of the country are probably slower.

So I think it was more of a it was more of a sort of rough inflection point. Whereas I think you saw in the around 2014 around a couple years there really a sharp change at many many. I mean, I even talked to people at law school people had been at same law school.

I had been at and they they said there was sort of a sharply a sharp turn against conservatives during that point. It became a much more intolerant place. Did you.

Want to add some more questions? No,.

I don't know if this is and like you said, maybe your specific area, but I'd like to get your thoughts. Do you see that the that theologically the church had something to do with that? I mean, looking back and kind of just what you studied now outside of being, let's say kind of that sheltered homeschool schooler, was there something theologically?

So like let's say we move into that neutral that neutral realm. Was there something theologically that got us there as a whole? I know you mentioned kind of Calhoun that influence, but I think he started he planted his church in New York, I think in 88.

Was there something already brewing theologically that moved us into the neutral realm? And then my next question would be when it was neutral, was there something the church could have done to then prevent it from going into the negative?

So these are.

Hard, hard counterfactuals and I would be I can't say anything with confidence here. What I will say is I don't think Keller moved us to the neutral. In many ways what this refers to is really how the society treats Christians rather than how Christians behave.

So Keller's model, I think, was a natural outgrowth in a society that already viewed Christians that way. He was doing it in a place where it was not even a center of influence of Christianity. I think if I had to guess, and again the biggest challenge I think the evangelical church has had in many ways is a fairly shallow a shallow and very personalized individualized view that has prevented it from substantively engaging politics and culture.

And so you look at a lot of the criticisms of, I was just talking to someone actually who was involved in one of these large moral majority organizations and his point was they were criticizing Bill Clinton as he can't vote for Bill Clinton because he's immoral.

Obviously change your opinion on Trump. I would say the position on Trump actually reflects a much more sophisticated and traditionally Protestant political culture where your vote is a prudential decision given the options in front of you.

Whereas against Bill Clinton and it was sort of framed in a very moralist way. Well, that's very easily exposed to charges of hypocrisy if anything happens. So I think that sort of more moralist approach was a it was not a strong foundation for Christianity to defend the goodness of its norms.

Another example given is why, he said something like why should I, why should gay marriage be illegal? It's because the Bible prohibits it. Well, the Bible prohibits a lot of things and they're not, some are illegal, some are not illegal.

And again, I think that it was not a there was not a well developed Christian political philosophy of how you're going to approach a lot of these real questions of governing and again, when you have something like that, it's just not a it's not a serious contender to defend the standard defend essentially its role as the norm setter in.

Society. Right. So you went to Calvin College and I know you have some thoughts as far as kind of where that institution went. Is that kind of reflective of kind of like what you're referring to when it comes to.

Yes, and that's actually a really good, that's probably the bigger issue to bring up and I think that Calvin reflects Calvin's ills were pervasive ills in the church that reflect certainly why it lost following the neutral world, during the neutral world approach.

Calvin was a place that was built on this Christian reform Dutch background, Dutch reform background just deep intellectual tradition. One of the great intellectual traditions, the reform tradition fundamentally is the tradition that founded the greatest, the sort of most elite institutions in our society today, Harvard, Yale and yet there was a profound lack of self-confidence at Calvin and it was sort of a reflexive lack of self-confidence.

You could see it in our background. We don't want to be across the board, there was the sense that we don't want to be like those sort of narrow parochial Christians that reflect our, the background the sort of conservative background of the denomination.

They wanted to seem reasonable to mainstream academia. Mainstream academia is not reasonable they reject God, they reject all sorts of things and trying to seem reasonable to them just led to a lack of self-confidence at Calvin.

So I think you had a, you saw that in many evangelical institutions, particularly the colleges and when you have that lack of self-confidence, that loses out to a very, very self-confident and assertive left.

I mean the wokes will assert their views absolutely unquestionably and demand that you agree with them. And meanwhile you have these Christians who are constantly cavitying everything they say, they're throwing their own ancestors under the bus and Calvin was a little ahead of the curve over compared to many evangelical institutions but I think reflected that viewpoint.

So,.

Could we be confident in saying that maybe what moved us into that neutral round was not to stand firm on our convictions as Christians and then what's brought us into the negative is that during that neutral time the same thing, it just we're not willing to just be blatantly Christian.

There's a qualification like you said, there's a winsomeness as far as trying to you know operate within certain boundaries that let's say the left or the worldly system allows us to operate in but it's interesting to me because a lot of Christians like today we have a certain boundary that the world has established for us.

When I say world, I say the worldly system like let's say if you want to call it the left whatever it may be, any anti-Christian mindset. They establish for us a certain boundary for us to kind of operate within and we're okay as long as we kind of stay within those boundaries.

A lot of times we don't want to go outside those boundaries because if we do they're going to think of us a certain way but it always intrigues me that Christians don't understand that those boundaries are just going to continue to get smaller and smaller.

At some point there's going to be a line that's going to be drawn that even the people that we could say that are kind of giving into the culture are going to have to take a stance because it's only going to become narrower and narrower and I see kind of that what you're saying in that kind of period of time was just not standing on Christian convictions to just say hey I'm a Christian, this is my heritage, this is what the word of God says.

Of course we're always very careful to be labeled as like fundamentalists but in a sense there is a fundamental belief that we have as Christians and to kind of stand firm on that. I do see a shift and I don't know if you see this too but even with the things you're doing and you're talking about some of the alternative approaches is that kind of what we're getting back to is just we're strictly Christian in the sense of the fundamental sense and we're going to stand on that.

That ground. So what it certainly what it certainly is to me is a rejection of the line that is set by non-Christians, by the secular world. We no longer accept the boundaries of acceptable discourse and that I think has been one of the governing principles of American reformer.

I would say I don't know that everyone, I don't know that winsomeness is a stance and a tone and you're trying to be reasonable. It's less about, I think you can be winsome and you can be extremely orthodox and you can stand firm.

I would view whether to be how winsome versus let's say boldly prophetic or whatever how aggressive. To be somewhat of a sort of a tactical decision. I don't think it's right or wrong. I think that you look at examples in the Bible and there are plenty of examples of both approaches being taken depending on the context.

It's sort of a tactic. Whether you let your whether you let your discourse be governed by the boundaries set by secular society is a very different story. You could be winsome and you could be orthodox and many were and you're not going to compromise.

I would say largely I think Keller fell into that category. I think many of Keller's progeny who followed that actually they drifted much further and they sort of emphasized the non-conflict part but I think the point, the bigger point about the negative world is in a negative world being winsome is not going to be enough to keep you.

In a more neutral world you can actually by being winsome potentially stay within the sort of boundaries of discourse. Now that circle's gotten a lot smaller and it doesn't matter what your tone is if your view is many orthodox Christian views.

Even just the authority of scripture. Yeah, you're going to get rejected. So I think that's sort of a strategic point but I think it's very significant. Once you're out of that box, once you're saying things that are going to get you labeled a racist, a sexist, whatever, all those things I mean basically that's how you're punished for stepping outside of that bound of exceptional discourse.

The Overton window would be what we often call it. Then there's a very different calculus over even what tone is going to be the effective one to get through. So why sacrifice clarity for winsomeness for instance if you're going to be labeled a racist anyway.

So that's where homophobe, all that stuff. So that's where I think that we need to reevaluate and I don't think there's a clear answer. It doesn't mean you go out necessarily you can stand on the word of God.

It doesn't mean you necessarily go out and sort of stand on the street corner and yell at everyone that they're going to hell. Everyone who looks possibly like their lifestyle conflicts with Christian principles.

But a much more assertive, much more prophetic approach might be the valid one. I also think there's a lot of intellectual questions of why did we? Your question is the big one. I can't answer that easily.

Why did we move from positive to neutral, neutral to negative? But obviously there were obviously there were things that we did that we want to reconsider that are traditional norms of how Christians engage that we want to reconsider.

So a lot of what we're looking at is sort of outside that Overton window in terms of strategy and tactics in terms of range of thought. Do we need to reconsider our alliance with classical liberalism to some extent?

Is this sort of idea of a neutral public order where neutral public square where Christians have a sort of role. Is that necessarily the right paradigm if that failed to protect many of the norms that we have?

So I think there's a lot of there's a lot of sort of fruitful debate happening over both both that theological stance toward things like politics and culture and then the question of how bold and direct to be.

So I actually I have some thoughts. I appreciate it. You got me thinking. I have some thoughts on your question. I think again living through that being 12 when Clinton got elected and kind of you know becoming a man through this neutral time period we're talking about like I think part of the problem was Christians in the church.

I mean this is how I was raised is like you said up until that point Christianity was kind of considered the majority and even like conservative Republican Party like you expected them to be running on Christian morals you know biblical principles and I think as the I think the church has got too too confident in the in conservatism right in the Republican Party and we stopped being prophetic like you're talking and so when we kind of hit this neutral spot starting with Clinton I think I mean I remember as a teenager thinking like well it's you know the Republicans are going to come to the rescue we're going to fix this you know like you know we just got to wait this out or whatever like there was too much faith in the Republican Party not enough in Christ not enough in God's Word and you know so I think that's what kind of led into that neutral thing is the church became literally became neutral like you're saying instead of being prophetic instead of you know proclaiming Christ and him crucified and his law we just kept waiting for the Republican Party to fix things you know and then George Bush gets elected after Clinton and you know he kind of and this obviously isn't all on the presidents you know but I'm just trying to think through this it lines up well with the presidents but I remember like he kind of corrected some of that stuff that Clinton had done but I can remember being like man he didn't you know for someone that claims to be a Christian and is a Republican like they didn't he didn't really stand for things like I thought he should have you know and then of course we get Obama and then Trump and then Trump even you know corrected a lot of things economically right but morally you know no and well some things yes but you know you see what I'm getting at and like again we're not standing on God's word we're not being prophetic we're relying on the Republican Party to fix things and so you know now we are where we are with this regime and so I think that to me that makes perfect sense what you're saying and just with the church and so now we're in this place where like like you're saying if we're going to get out of this this box that they've placed us in we have to stand on God's word we have to be prophetic and we have to speak into the culture otherwise you know they're just going to this box is going to get smaller and smaller so I really appreciate it hopefully that kind of answers that.

New Founding, Christian Business, and Positive Alternatives

Yeah no. And of course kind of segue into new founding. You kind of mentioned it at the beginning too as far as kind of the approach but can you kind of go into that a little bit more. Just kind of based on what we've said.

What is new founding doing now in this the negative realm.

So as a venture org we work with we work with new companies we work with ventures it's pretty broad term. But we'll work with companies that are that are doing something where there's a specific political or cultural angle or a way in which our viewpoint has a significant impact in the company.

So that's not just a company with a Christian owner. For instance a company with a Christian owner might be great but if they just make widgets we don't necessarily have a ton to add to change how they do business.

But if it's a company that is explicitly selling to customers on the right people who have been alienated there's a huge customer base open. Understanding the themes that resonate with them today is a big part of that.