I Really TRIED to Talk About Other Stuff, But…Eventually…

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:33

Greetings! Welcome to the Dividing Line on a Tuesday. I confess

00:39

I'm feeling a little scattered here. Too many things to try to get to, to be perfectly honest with you.

00:48

Just so much that I want to talk about, and I don't feel overly prepared to do so, to be perfectly honest with you.

00:58

And I'm still throwing stuff together here, actually. I've got stuff up on the screen and going, ah, well, what about this?

01:05

Oh, I forgot to bring that up. And there's all sorts of things like that. So, you know, some of you might say, well, you know, we've had days like that ourselves.

01:15

And yes, I do want that to start. Thank you very much. I was right then changing the little doodad that helps me find, you know, you know how you know you're getting older?

01:32

You can't find the mouse on the screen. It's where did it go?

01:38

You know, and you're, you're running around all over the place. And, and, you know, you with, that's the one thing about Mac is years and years ago,

01:49

I designed my own pointers on windows and they had colors and animation and all sorts of cool stuff.

01:58

It's just a plain black arrow on Mac. That's all you got. And so you should try it on my screen.

02:04

See, I've got your screen. I've got four screens over here. And if I lose it, it's, it could be anywhere. I've seen, yeah, it's, it's floating around above my head on the screen up there, right?

02:13

Yeah. And if it is, I'm in big trouble cause it ain't anywhere I can see. Yeah. It's over here. Seriously. It really is.

02:18

Oh, okay. You got it now. Anyway. Yeah, it's, but some of you have seen, and it's a bit of a pain.

02:30

Some of you even asked, I was using this program called pinpoint and it puts a big line up and down and sideways when you move your mouse and it's a lot easier to see.

02:39

Problem is I use a program that makes my mouse go across. It goes from this screen to this screen, to this screen, to that screen.

02:46

Well, how else would you do it? These two are connected. These two are connected. It's just sort of the way it works.

02:53

And when I'm playing videos that will come across the video if I'm moving the mouse, even outside the area of the thing.

03:01

And so I found another one and I called a simple mouse locator and a locator center.

03:12

What do you do? Clap your hands and it goes beep beep. No, no, no. It's got, it's got a static ring on it and uh, and it, it's, it's, it's sort of cool.

03:22

It's, it's, it's neat. And uh, so I will help. I've lost my mouse and I can't anyway, when it goes, when it goes from, from screen to screen, it puts up a thing of a

03:32

Bobby and it's easy to see. So anyways, uh, I don't have time to really set it up right now, but that's what

03:39

I was doing. Uh, as well as opening up a cut on program cause my favorite cut on program won't work cause they keep changing the

03:48

Java stuff and it's an old thing and they won't update it. And uh, excuse me,

03:53

I need to, uh, take a sip of my,

03:59

I've got some Earl gray coming to, uh, Ken made me some Earl gray while I was back there. It was, it was really good. So anyway, um,

04:07

I'll be, I'll be honest with you. Um, I'm not sure exactly where to start here because so many things have been going on like last evening.

04:19

Okay, I'll, I'll start here. Last evening I was reading through the comments on an article.

04:29

At first the comments wouldn't come up. I don't know why, but I think it's Safari personally, but eventually came up in Safari.

04:37

So maybe it didn't work that way. Um, and the article is from Calvin .edu,

04:47

Calvin college. And it is, uh, what's, what's the name of the, uh, the thing again here?

04:54

Um, chimes. Yeah. Chimes, which halfway through the comments

05:02

I said, we're not really officially representative. We're just, you know, yeah, I know. First gay couple married in Kent County share testimony of faith, love and time at Calvin.

05:17

And it is, you know, the entire article is extremely positive, pro affirming all the rest of this stuff.

05:30

And, and a lot of people noted that, um, this is not exactly the position of Calvin college or the

05:38

Christian reform church. And dad, the bottom, there's an editor's note. Calvin college's official view on homosexuality is the same as the official position of the

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CRC. And then they give the website a thing. Um, and that's, that's about it.

05:56

Well, I took the time to read through some of the comments because, uh, Mike Porter had commented to somebody else on Facebook that one of the professors, not one of the theology professors, but someone in the

06:10

English department that you always have to keep an eye on the English department. That's been my experience, the English department.

06:16

Um, but the, uh, one of these professors had been saying, well, we'll contact me.

06:24

We'll, we'll exegete the relevant passages together. Make long story short, a, the majority of the non, the majority of the biblically affirming what we need to start, you know, these folks have learned from the socialists and the communists to use language, to frame the debate for their side, to win before there's been any argument to begin with.

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So welcoming, affirming, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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All these are meant to produce emotional resonance rather than actually accurately describing anything because we now live in a society where valuing languages accuracy is irrelevant.

07:20

I mean, we go lol. We're the lol generation now, you know,

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SMH, SMH, you know, accuracy of language.

07:35

Uh, when was the last time you heard someone positively? I'm not talking to you homeschoolers.

07:40

I know there's still a few freaks left, but, but when was the last time in general social dialogue you heard anyone extolling the virtues of disciplining yourself to expand your functional vocabulary?

08:05

When was the last time you heard that? I don't hear it. Um, when I was a kid, it was, you were encouraged to learn new words, to learn them, how to use, use them to, to, to bring them into your vocabulary.

08:22

It's, it's so easy for us to become lazy now. I do it.

08:28

I do it. You know, I I've fallen into the same lack of, of discipline and pushing myself to expand my

08:38

English vocabulary anyways. Um, I, I get it. I was just trying to use some words even in this description there to try to help folks to realize that having the ability to nuance your statements through the use of vocabulary, it's a good thing.

08:57

Good thing. The other side has learned that that's the society that we are now, you know, well, they created the context really.

09:07

And so they have learned to use all these terms that are not accurate, but they're, they're emotive.

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They create an emotional resonance, an emotional response, and actually they're designed to diminish critical thought.

09:24

I mean, that very term critical, um, that's not a positive thing anymore either.

09:31

Critical thought, who wants, who wants critical thought? So I was, as I said, reading through the comments and the first point, those who were holding to a biblical position were not overly accurate in their statements or gracious in their attitudes.

09:53

And unfortunately, some were, some were, there was one particular person I saw repeatedly engaging could tell they were really concerned and they were, they were doing it in a solid way.

10:01

So don't, don't get me wrong, but there were others that were just, their, their response was primarily the knee jerk.

10:10

This isn't what we believe what are you people talking about? Level of, of response, which only feeds into the, the paradigm that's already been set up by the emotive language of the other side.

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See, see, unloving, uncaring, unchristlike, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that wasn't helpful.

10:33

The ones that were just going, I just can't believe this, you know, instead of actually engaging the statements and pointing out the incoherence of the article and the lack of journalistic balance,

10:46

I guess, I don't know. Is, is it not part of journalism now to, to have both sides?

10:51

I, when I was, again, I'm, I'm just an old fogey now, but my generation to, to be engaged in quote unquote journalism required you to, you know, handle things factually and represent both sides and all the rest of that kind of stuff.

11:11

So that hadn't happened. And anyways, so that was first thing.

11:17

But the thing, of course, it was most troubling was how many alumni of Calvin college were commenting and were just, oh, this is wonderful.

11:27

This is one of, I just think this is, it's just so good to see that we're getting past those narrow confines of, of belief that were ours and we're able to see what the spirit is doing.

11:42

And wow, I mean, 100 % acceptance of the revisionist viewpoint, just battle over battle over.

11:57

Um, it was amazing to, to see that, um, just, just, oh, well, you know, these scholars have said it and, uh, you just, just have to and not re and well, maybe they do realize, but most of them don't realize.

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I don't think that in having accepted that revisionist paradigm, that revisionist hermeneutic there's, they've got no grounds left to stand for righteousness, to stand for anything on anything in our culture.

12:32

And it was, um, it was, it was, it was sad. It was, it was sad.

12:38

Um, that's interesting. A, a Christian response to militant

12:44

Islam. I haven't seen that, but I can do about during the dividing line. Looks like an interesting, uh, freeze frame there.

12:51

Oh, okay. This is definitely an interesting freeze frame because I just realized I was, do you see what's on Twitter?

13:00

There's a, uh, there's a video here. Um, and it's got

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Trump in a normal Trump pose, but it's in a transition.

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And I from last week right here am what is trans is transitioning into or out of,

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I'm not sure which. So I wonder,

13:27

I wonder what that is. Hmm. That's going to be, that's going to, that's going to, uh, bother me now.

13:38

Uh, yeah. Book says I need to stay off Twitter while doing the dividing line.

13:43

Yeah. Well it is sort of how people end up interacting with it. I'll be interested in looking at that.

13:49

Yeah. I can't click on it because if I do, it'll blow the whole webcast up. I can't have a receiving

13:54

YouTube and sending to YouTube at the same time. Really? Oh yeah. Bad things. Really?

14:00

Yeah. That's interesting. I'm not sure why that would be, but well, it would take over, uh, devices that are in use or certain activities that we're doing.

14:11

Okay. So, but I can at least see the post on, you know, on Twitter. Yeah. All right.

14:18

What I should do is I should, uh, I should copy the URL and paste it in channel.

14:28

And since book is the one whining, complaining about my mentioning that book, you need to watch, uh, that, uh, video and put a, uh, report into channel as to what it's about.

14:47

And, um, that's what, or get ready that way.

14:53

You won't be distracted by Twitter. You'll be distracted by the channel. That's right. Okay. And if, and if he doesn't, then he just needs to understand how many, uh, cracks there are between the tiles in the floor of Pross Purgatory that he will be cleaning with a toothbrush.

15:14

He will be there so long that, that, uh, that red will have to come visit him once in a while, just simply for him to,

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I mean, that's, that's how bad it will be. All right. This is, this is, this is bad. So anyway, um, okay.

15:30

So, so much of that, look, I'm just going to say this briefly and move on in many ways, the battle for the institutions of many denominations, changing the battle for the institutions of denominations, where the ultimate authority of the word of God has been diminished, has gone below a certain level.

16:09

It's over. It's over because within a brief period of time, even if we hold out now, the next generation, the next undisciplined generation, the generation of emotions rather than mind will be taking over control of those institutions.

16:41

Done, done. Um, that does not mean that Christ is not on his throne.

16:52

That does not mean anything. It means that there has been a fundamental demonstration of judgment and the landscape is going to be exceptionally fluid in the future in regards to what was formally identified as believing or conservative or evangelical, whatever words you want to use.

17:22

People who take the Bible seriously are going to see, um, what those churches and denominations, um, are going to look like in the future.

17:35

Very, very different. Very, very different. That's, that's what it says. I wish I had some more information on the story that broke a few days ago about children seized from parents on charges of Christian indoctrination in Norway.

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I was having some conversation with a fellow from Britain about this.

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Um, and a lot of people are like, ah, you know, there's, there's probably more to it than this. You know, um, there's, there's probably something more that would, that would, that would be involved and we can't really judge and all the stuff.

18:12

Um, I'm not sure what the Barnevernet is, but it sounds like some kind of, it sounds like CPS to me.

18:24

Um, but there was, there were statements made in this article that were, it is

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CPS, child, child welfare. So that's what it seemed to be. Yeah. Um, and I tell you,

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CPS is CPS anywhere. The government, when the government can take over scary stuff, scary stuff.

18:55

Um, a lot of people are saying, you know, this is what's coming for everybody.

19:03

But here, here's the real, real issue in her message. Uh, she also said that the parents are faithful Christians, very

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Christian. And the grandmother has a strong faith that God punishes sin, which in her opinion creates a disability in children.

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Now think about just, just step back for a moment from all the emotions that immediately come to us when we think of the government taking our children from us, separating parents from children, a strong faith that God punishes sin, which in her opinion creates a disability in children.

19:55

Okay. Um, you, you, you do realize that the idea of God punishing sin, not only was an absolute given throughout

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Europe for centuries, more of the modern hubris, but it is the, it is absolutely central to the

20:23

Christian faith. If God does not punish sin, there's no reason for the cross.

20:31

And Jesus is a fraud because he said it was necessary to go.

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Jerusalem was necessary. The son of man to give his life for instrument. God doesn't punish sin. All of that is just simple mythology.

20:42

It's, it's ridiculous. So if, if, if believing that God punishes sin is wrong, then obviously identifying anything as sin is wrong.

20:58

Wow. Um, don't even know where to, where to go with that.

21:05

That is absolutely positively amazing. But what obviously, um, what obviously has been on my mind a great deal.

21:19

Well, you know what, before I go there, maybe you'll remember, I talked a little bit about some of the unbelievable programs that I listened to.

21:31

I can't remember because I know, I remember thinking about what

21:37

I would say on the program about these programs, but don't know if I ever got around to actually saying it on the program.

21:44

Did I talk about the program where they discussed the, uh, blueprint, uh, model of history versus the warfare model of history?

22:01

I don't think he did. It doesn't ring any bells at all, does it? No. That's, that's scary. When you're, when

22:08

I go through my mind and I think about what I'm going to say on the dividing line, it becomes mixed together with whether I did or did not actually say it.

22:16

That's one of the problems in addressing so many different issues is, uh, it would be a little bit easier if I was focused on a little narrower spectrum.

22:24

But, um, I, I know that I've mentioned, uh, I know that I, I, at least

22:30

I hope I congratulated, uh, Justin Brierley on 10 years of, of unbelievable.

22:36

And I know at that point in time, I was planning on listening to this program. I finally got around to where they, they had a program and okay, now book is saying that I mentioned it and so's

22:51

SS exile. So we just may be proven our age here.

22:57

I don't know. Um, but I know I discussed it in channel. So are they sure that it wasn't a discussion in channel and rather than discussion on the dividing line?

23:10

I don't know. Maybe we need to start doing Prevagen commercials or something. I already, already got that.

23:15

Yeah. Um, so book tells me that what was posted, it's just a clip from the

23:22

DL that has some graphics over it. The part with Trump is when you say we are to have the mind of Christ, not the mind of the world.

23:29

Okay. Oh, Glenn Beck comes up right after Trump. So I'm assuming those guys are the world.

23:37

Oh, okay. All right. Well, I'll take a look at that later. Well, turrets and fan says we mentioned it.

23:43

So if turrets and fit since turrets and fan is a bot and is not human and hence is not subject to, uh, those vagaries, but can they give the date?

23:54

Well, it had to have been last week because I only listened to the program the weekend before that.

24:00

So, all right. Well, I, I know that I didn't talk about who was involved in stuff like that.

24:06

I remember you talking, referencing it. I don't remember. You actually, I thought you wanted to discuss it at a future date.

24:15

Yeah. I remember actually discussing it. I think you're right. I, I, I wanted, you know what I did say? Oh, I wanted to play some portions of it.

24:23

I wanted to drop it into audio note, note taker and play some portions of it, which I'm not ready to do. So, so there you go.

24:29

There we go. That's now, now we have all come to the same conclusion.

24:37

That's good. You referenced that you did not discuss it. My recollection.

24:42

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think you're, I think you're basically correct about that. I think you're basically correct about that.

24:49

All right. Obviously what

24:56

I have had primarily, yeah, you talked about wanting to listen to it on the video from your personal channel.

25:08

It wasn't a personal channel. Oh, the channel as in that channel. Okay. When I got done speaking in St.

25:21

Louis, well, as I had, um, left to go to St.

25:32

Louis for a very good weekend, um, discussing homosexuality, we had a really good turnout.

25:41

We had folks come from all over the place. Alan Willis and his family, um, uh, were there for all the, uh, uh, all the sessions, uh, rich.

25:52

I don't think you heard that, but, oh, you didn't. Okay. Um, that was pretty cool. Um, but folks drove up from Arkansas and, and stuff like that.

26:02

It was a great weekend. But as I was leaving, I had seen

26:10

Steve Hayes try a blog post, an article called importing time bombs.

26:17

And then right as I was leaving, there was one poster called client Titus. And I even commented that I'd hoped over the weekend while traveling to have time to respond.

26:32

Of course that I knew at the time is sort of silly, um, that I would not have time.

26:39

Um, but all these accusations of straw men and, uh, you know,

26:46

I mean the client Titus one ended with this. Why is a very smart guy. So why does he feel the need to burn so many straw men?

26:52

The whole show is talking back at critics rather than reasoning with critics. He accuses the critics of Roy rage, but he's pretty hopped up in himself.

27:00

And I don't get, you know, I've, I've tried over the past couple of years to try to, you know, mend some fences from a few explosions in the past, but obviously that hasn't helped any.

27:13

Um, so I can't really predict what's going to go, but, um, lots of criticism then.

27:22

And then I head toward the airport on Sunday and a video has been posted and I'm, I'm only, the only thing

27:38

I can access here is my phone. I'm going to the airport.

27:47

And so I'm getting all these notifications from Facebook.

27:53

Sam Shamoon posted a video from Muslim by choice.

28:00

Now Yaya snow is all upset. Uh, because why I didn't say this, right? You need to look at the original.

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Look, I don't know who Muslim by choice is. I'll bet you. Yaya snow does. I'll bet you, you know who that is.

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And a lot of these accounts are not just one person.

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I don't think that Psalm 44 is just one person. I think there's one primary person, but I think they have people who help them.

28:26

And I don't know who Muslim by choice is, and maybe some other people do, but the video

28:33

I got to see one time before boarding. And then once you're on the plane, you can't stream video.

28:41

Even I bought wifi. Uh, they got smart enough to realize they've been charging way too much for that for a while.

28:47

And they've dropped it back down to where someone might actually bother to purchase it. But I bought the wifi for the trip, but still you can't, you can't rewatch it.

28:57

When I watched it, when I watched Muslim by choice. Now I'll be perfectly honest with you.

29:04

Well, people in the audience, how many times have we played clips from videos by Muslim by choice and demonstrated the, the fact that this is not one of the serious people to deal with.

29:18

It's not that the, this guy doesn't represent a lot of Muslims sadly, but it's not the serious

29:23

Muslims. It's not the reflective Muslims. It's not the Muslims who want to actually, you know, get somewhere with their, with their argumentation.

29:32

There are Muslims who simply argue to help other Muslims feel good about Islam. They're not, they don't care about whether anyone ever accepts any of that outside of Islam.

29:45

They're, they're doing the red meat to the base type thing. And there's people like that on both sides.

29:51

There are Christians, unfortunately do the exact same thing. They're not concerned whether they ever reach a Muslim.

29:56

And so you can use whatever arguments make you look good in the eyes of other Christians. Doesn't really matter.

30:04

Just that that's, it's a whatever works type of a, of an idea.

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And so we have taken apart a number of these.

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I've done videos, we've done on the dividing line. So Muslim by choice is not exactly at the top of the list anywhere.

30:24

In fact, very, very close to the bottom of the list. And I've, I've chuckled a number of times because often what they'll do is they'll, they'll post lengthy segments of this program.

30:34

I mean, it's amazing the hours these people spend watching this program. I mean, we, we freaked out last week about the, the loony

30:41

Romanists up in New York who are, who not, not only spend hours watching this program, but in slow motion, they're watching this program, which is wow.

30:56

Amazing to think about. But anyway, we find this video from Muslim by choice.

31:07

I watch it one time. There is one name in that video.

31:13

Only one proper name in graphics on that video.

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Yaya Snow. It's Yaya Snow. Now, if Yaya is upset with me about how

31:26

I responded to it, I think you should be upset with Muslim by choice. And you probably know whoever that is or whatever group of people it is or whatever organization it is, you probably know.

31:36

Why don't you take it up with them? They're the ones that edited your video. They're the ones that put up a grossly misrepresentational edited video that was obviously attempting to sow discord and to, to say, oh, you're saying this about this person or that about that person, et cetera, et cetera.

31:58

Totally ignoring the context of everything that I said. Now, at the same time, the

32:07

Muslims aren't the only ones that have been doing that. I am simply in shock at how many

32:13

Christians for whatever reasons, I don't know, simply refuse to listen to everything that I'm saying.

32:23

Now, obviously no one's a perfect communicator. So I have had to honestly ask myself, have you been this unclear?

32:33

Have you been this bullheaded or, or, or, or just misleading people or forgetting to lay out foundational issues?

32:47

And then I start seeing, thankfully, a large number of people on Twitter and Facebook writing and saying, thank you so much for maintaining consistency and balance here.

33:01

And I I've had people write and say, you know, I, I've become extremely convicted because you're right.

33:09

I was applying one standard. I demand this standard, but I'm applying this standard to others and I it's hypocritical of me.

33:19

And so the reality is some people are getting it.

33:25

And so I can't, it can't be a complete failure on my part because a lot of folks are going, no, we understood you.

33:34

We, we heard you say very clearly ISIS follows a particular stream of Islamic thought that can be traced back into the very earliest periods of Islam.

33:49

We heard you say that the real issue here, and it's something

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I've been saying for years, you cannot accuse me of having changed recently because you can go back to the beginning of my study of Islam.

34:10

And now that I've grown in my conviction of this as my knowledge, especially of the

34:15

Hadith and reading of the Hadith expanded. But I've said from the beginning, the source documents, the sources of Islam are the problem.

34:31

They are not coherent. They are not consistent and they do not bear the character that would allow for a meaningful reformation or for one side to banish the other side intellectually or by argumentation.

34:49

Militarily, different issue, totally different issue. But the

34:57

Quran due to its nature is significantly more susceptible to wide variation of interpretation than the

35:09

New Testament is. It's only 56 % the length of the New Testament.

35:14

It's 14 % the length of the Bible. It is a relatively short document.

35:21

It's about the same length as the Gospels. That's all it is. And many people have argued that if you take away the context of the

35:35

Hadith, you take away the traditional understandings of, well, this section was written after this battle or this section was written after this and so on and so forth, that you really couldn't make heads or tails.

35:51

You could not interpret due to ambiguity in lexicography, syntax, grammar, etc.

36:00

major portions of the Quran. That it's really difficult to understand exactly what is being discussed.

36:10

And it's pretty obvious, especially the longer surahs, are compilations of shorter materials.

36:18

Where all of a sudden, it looks like the entire context just jumps ship.

36:25

We're off over onto something else now. And so it looks like one came from one time period, another came from another time period, and they've been sort of put together somehow.

36:36

And again, without context, who's to know?

36:44

And so I have argued from the beginning that when you have, and I still just throw my hands up in the air and say, if you are so ignorant of Islam, or maybe your experience of it is so narrow that you don't recognize not just the differences between Sunni and Shia, but if you think every

37:10

Sunni believes the same way, practices the same way, I'm sorry, you don't know anything about Islam.

37:18

You are just as ignorant as the person that goes, well,

37:23

I know there are Catholics and Protestants, but you know, all Protestants are the same. Really?

37:30

You see, as a Christian, you recognize how ignorant that is. And if you encounter a

37:35

Muslim that says that to you, you're just going to go, okay. But then you turn around and do the same thing to them.

37:43

Well, all Sunnis are the same. No, they're not. Do you just not know enough Muslims to find that out?

37:50

There's all sorts of different variations. And obviously, the

37:56

Islam that exists on the street in Pakistan is going to be different than the

38:02

Islam that exists in the hallways of Yale. And there's a whole gradation in between.

38:08

Now, I have said, likewise, that when the militaristic version of Islam, Salafi Islam, and not all

38:19

Salafis are militarized, not all Wahhabis are militarized.

38:25

But what's scary is, and go back to 2007, if you think that I'm making this up now.

38:31

Go back to 2007. Listen, I haven't looked it up. I'm just throwing this out right now just for the fun of it.

38:40

Listen to when I reviewed Sheikh Yasir Qadhi's lecture on Shirk and Tawheed.

38:49

I remember the ride that I did in South Mountain Park while I was listening to that lecture for the first time.

38:55

I listened to it a number of times. I listened to it the first time where he explained, and this was the earlier

39:01

Sheikh Qadhi, he might have actually a little different view now, but he explained why

39:08

Muslims cannot engage in acts of jihad in non -Muslim countries.

39:15

And I presented that on this program, on this program, and said at the time, with all due respect to Yasir Qadhi, that line, that wall that separates from his perspective, when my life as a kuffar is forfeit and when it's not, seems really, really narrow and small.

39:43

Go back. That was eight years ago. Every one of you sitting out there, taking pod shots at me, go back and find out who's been consistent all along.

39:57

Why weren't you taking pod shots at me back then? So, there is no question that there is a variety of expression and belief.

40:14

Early Islam was not monolithic. I mean, it's funny,

40:20

I'm a little concerned that I'm listening to some who are involved in apologetics to Muslims and they're not being consistent in their arguments.

40:31

If you want to say there is a monolithic Islam, or if you want to say that there should be a monolithic Islam, what's the foundational argument there?

40:38

The foundational argument there is that the Islamic sources are sufficiently clear to produce a monolithic, a consistent interpretation that would produce a monolithic

40:52

Islam. And yet, are we not always arguing the inconsistency of the

40:57

Quran and the inconsistency of the Hadith? So, which is it going to be?

41:03

If on the one hand, you're going to say there's contradictions here. If on one hand, you're going to say, you know, the sciences that have been developed of Hadith interpretation and how to determine whether something's sahih or whether it's, you know, one of the various gradations down from that as far as its authority and stuff like that.

41:21

Man, this stuff seems awfully self -referential and circular and there seems to be some real issues here.

41:27

And there seems to be some real contradiction in these collections and in the Quran itself.

41:32

There seems to be evolution, very clearly evolution in it. And, you know, obviously this is even seen the early interpretation where you've got abrogation coming in.

41:41

But how do you apply abrogation? And there's all different interpretations of when you apply abrogation, all the rest of this stuff.

41:47

If you're going to say that, you cannot turn around and then say, But having said all that, true

41:54

Islam is this. What? That requires a consistent source for that true

42:02

Islam to come from. And yet I'm hearing people who will use both arguments. I can't do that.

42:08

I'm sorry. Do forgive me. I'm stuck in this consistency thing.

42:13

I'm sorry. It's just, it's just, you know, what can I say?

42:19

Are you waving at me? A little bit. Oh, is this my tea break? It's your tea break. One of the conversations that I had on that thread,

42:27

I've heard this argument in other contexts before. And I just,

42:32

I don't think a Christian should be thinking this way. And that is that we're going to make the assumption that the street in Saudi Arabia or the street in Pakistan is the genuine

42:43

Islam. And everybody who departs from that within the

42:49

Islamic context, well, they're liberals. Well, they're this or they're that. But ultimately, when it comes right down to it, if they ran the world there, it's a distinction without a difference is the phrase that kept coming up.

43:02

And the problem that I have with it is, is that if you're going to extrapolate so much from that Pakistan example, and you're going to shove it into the mouths of the people in Dearborn, Michigan, or shove it into the mouths of, as you said, the people in Yale, the problem with that is, is that you're not being honest because they would never say those things.

43:26

So you have to put those words into their mouth in order to draw your distinction without a difference.

43:33

And I guess it makes it nice and easy because it doesn't force you to have to think. It doesn't force you to have to try to come to a point where you have to interact with them.

43:43

Instead, it puts you in a position where you can broad brush the whole group and dismiss them all and say, as this person said, you know, if they're

43:53

ISIS, they need to die. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of anger and, and, and violent feeling.

43:59

And I, in all of this, I really am concerned about how many of these folks would, if the opportunity were given to them, uh, overcome their clear emotions to actually bear testimony of the gospel were that opportunity to be open.

44:14

That's, that's my ultimate concern here. But the term that you used is, is the right term.

44:19

It's much easier to, uh, broad brush. It's much easier to not make the proper distinctions.

44:26

It's much easier not to extend the grace. It's much easier to say, well, they're all like this look. And as soon as you point that out, you're accused of being an apologist for Islam and all the rest of this idiocy.

44:38

It's, it's all it is. It's not, there's, there's no thought behind that. Anyone who thinks

44:44

I'm an apologist for Islam, who knows anything about what I've done, you're just not functioning on, on a basis of reality.

44:50

You're, you're just, you're in another planet. Um, you know, it's, it's silly, but here's the, here's the thing.

45:00

If you do the deny the categories, deny the existence of other viewpoints, ask yourself a question.

45:10

Are you going to be able to, in any meaningful fashion, testify the gospel of Jesus Christ to the entire spectrum of Muslims?

45:19

Because you're saying the spectrum is down here. When you meet a Muslim up here, how are you going to witness to them?

45:26

You're assuming all sorts of errors about what he actually believes and how he actually thinks.

45:34

And for me as a Christian, if you're willing to embrace a way of thought that is going to fundamentally damage your ability to speak the gospel to other people, you are in sin.

45:48

Just that simple. We, we cannot take the easy way out.

45:54

We can't do it. Are you simply saying, well, I'm just, I'm not going to, I'm not going to worry about that person.

46:01

I'm not going to worry about the non -militarized Muslim. I'm so angry about the militarized

46:07

Muslim. And I'm so angry about the other Muslims who will agree or in certain ways support

46:15

ISIS. And there's far too many of them to care. Well, you're called to care.

46:23

You don't have that choice. You don't get to make that decision. You don't get to make that decision.

46:30

You don't, not as a Christian. So one of the other things

46:39

I want to get to here, there are far too many

46:45

Muslims in the world who unthinkingly accept a form of Islam that is far too easily militarized and turned into violence.

46:58

There are far too many Muslims in the world who are willing to broad brush all

47:03

Christians, who are willing to embrace a simplistic definition of what

47:10

Kafir means in the Quran. Far too many.

47:17

I am not diminishing the danger of those people. I will say, however, that if your first response to those people is hatred, violence, and death, that you're not responding as a

47:34

Christian. If that's the primary thing you want rained upon them, then that's not a

47:41

Christian response. Show me that in scripture. Give me a positive case that bless your enemies, bless them that curse you, do not hate, show me how you get that attitude.

47:59

And if I could just ask you to put your emotions aside long enough to examine your heart and ask yourself, what is the first thought across your mind when you see these people?

48:16

And if it's not, here is an individual who has been given a false hope. They've been deceived.

48:23

They may be very zealous for their religion, but it is a false zeal and they need to know the truth.

48:30

They've even been told that they love Jesus. They don't even know who he is. Oh, that I could let them know who he is.

48:40

I know it's a whole lot easier just to hate. I know that's a lot easier, but Christian disciples are called to something different than that.

48:48

They're called to something different than that. But here's another issue. It seems to me that a large point, a large number, not all, but a large number of those that I encountered in Facebook and places like that, that were accusing me of all sorts of things, are not people who would even attempt to make a positive defense of the biblical scriptures against the accusations of the best that Islam has to have, has to offer.

49:24

In fact, most of them don't even know what that is. They don't know what Islam has to offer as far as criticism is concerned.

49:30

And they don't understand why I won't buy into their simplistic arguments and why

49:38

I sit back and, well, even some books that are coming out, some authors,

49:45

I am deeply disappointed and concerned that Christian leaders are feeding into this.

50:00

And as a result, look, the Muslims are watching this. They're watching this program right now, live, recording it.

50:10

And by the way, if you're a Muslim and you're sitting there and the only reason you're recording this is to try to find something to use to cloud the issues, really?

50:21

You aren't helping. You're part of the problem. Think about it. Examine your motivations.

50:30

And if you're going to use anything I say, remember that one of the 99 beautiful names is

50:35

Al -Haq. And you better be in line with Al -Haq in however you handle what

50:43

I say. Just a little warning there. One of the things that's really bugging me is

50:51

I'm seeing all these people on Facebook and in print going, well, it's obvious to me the

50:57

Quran teaches this. The Quran teaches this.

51:06

How many times? How many times have I had to respond to people saying, well, the

51:13

Bible teaches. Y 'all see that video that the Germans did? I got hit with it three, four, five, six times yesterday.

51:20

Real easy to go into certain texts, go into Deuteronomy 25 or whatever it is, cutting off of a hand and, and, you know, other, other texts like that, you know, wiping out the

51:35

Amorites, whatever. Well, the Bible teaches this. And if you've ever been out witnessing, you've ever gone out on the front lines to proclaim the gospel, you have had you must have had to have asked for the right to demand that the

52:01

Bible be handled in an accurate and contextual fashion. It's central to every bit of evangelism that we do.

52:11

Any objection whatsoever to the text of the Bible, you have had to respond by saying, well, it's unfair to say that the

52:19

Bible teaches this. The Bible can mention all sorts of things, or the

52:25

Bible could have had a particular context at a particular time that indicated this.

52:34

But the Bible then says, well, good example. There is a, a constant misrepresentation on the part of the leading

52:45

Muslim apologists saying that, well, Matthew, Matthew records

52:52

Jesus saying, I am not sent, but the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So Jesus isn't the Messiah for the whole world.

52:58

He's only the Messiah for the Jews. He wasn't, he didn't come for the whole world. How many times have we played people saying that over the past nine years,

53:08

I'd say 2006 is when we really started discussing Islam on the program. So nine years, almost, almost coming up on a decade, not quite coming up on a decade.

53:18

How many times have we played Imams, people involved in Dawa from all over the world saying,

53:28

Jesus said, I'm not sent, but the lost sheep of the house of Israel right there in gospel of Matthew. And what is always our response?

53:35

What's the only response that can be given? That's not even fair to Matthew. When you can take something he said in the middle of his gospel and then ignore that at the end of his gospel,

53:49

Jesus sends his disciples into all the world, says all power and authority over all the universe has been given to him.

53:58

And that we are to go into all the nations and preach the gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

54:06

If you can take Matthew and ignore the end of math, you take something in the middle. You are not being fair to Matthew.

54:14

So what have we done? We have rightly said, you must handle these texts in the context in which they were offered, right?

54:24

All right. Every one of you sitting there, pulling a text out of the Quran here, pulling a text out of the

54:31

Quran there and saying the Quran teaches, and you don't know what the context is. Shame on you.

54:37

Shame on you. I saw people, I saw people in the comments of Facebook.

54:44

It's the Quran teaches and you wouldn't know what the Quran was teaching. If your life depended on it, you saw something on a website.

54:54

And again, Dr. Consistency here, how many decades, decades can

55:05

I prove that I have said to people, if you watch my presentation on Mormonism and you jump on your white horse and head off to win the

55:17

Mormons without doing your homework, you're getting in trouble and you're probably doing more damage than good.

55:25

And illustration after illustration, I've used this illustration over and over again.

55:31

I've said, what if you're sitting outside, you're reading your Bible and a

55:37

Mormon comes up to you and says, oh, are you a Christian? Well, well, let's not make it

55:43

Mormon. Let's make an atheist that fits better there. Atheist comes up to you, are you a Christian? Yeah. Well, you know that, that, that Bible of yours is just a bunch of myths.

55:53

Really? You've ever read it? No, I never read it, but I saw a movie about it by one of my atheist professors. How much credibility does that person have in your eyes?

56:02

None, rightfully so. So before you pop off about what the

56:08

Quran teaches, if you haven't actually read it seriously, shut up. If you just got off of a graphic on Facebook, shut up.

56:21

Come on. Say, boy, you're awful mean about this.

56:29

I'm the guy that has stood in Durban, South Africa, begging the Muslims to reason with me, to move the conversation forward, to get to the important stuff.

56:40

So yeah, I get a little upset when people on my side do the same dumbheaded thing that people on their side are doing.

56:49

Because all it leads to, well, right now, leading to death and mayhem.

56:55

Not a good thing. Not a good thing. So let me give you, let me give you an example.

57:05

In fact, I, let me see if I can, can you get that?

57:13

All right, there we go. I wish

57:19

I could do stuff. I don't know this one well enough to unlock pro features.

57:26

Something tells me I have to do that. One of the most famous texts in the

57:32

Quran is right here in Surah 929. Fight those who do not believe in the law in the last day, and who do not consider unlawful what

57:39

Allah and his messenger have made lawful, and who do not accept the religion of truth. And from those who were given the scripture, fight until they give the jizya willingly while they are humbled.

57:51

All right. Now, number one, are there militarized

58:00

Salafi Muslims? And there are Shiites do the same thing. No, I'm just looking at the big groups who would look at this text and go, there you go.

58:14

Fight those who do not believe in the law. If you do not believe in the law, you don't believe in the last day, we're going to fight you.

58:23

Certainly are. Way too many of them. Is there a way to put together hadith sources, tafsir sources, to support that particular reading of Surah 929?

58:46

Of course there are. Of course there are. Of course there are.

58:53

Is that the only way that you can read Surah 929? Of course not.

59:02

Are there tafsir and hadith sources that you could put together that give you a different reading? Of course.

59:09

For example, how about go back a little bit here. Oh, you who have believed indeed the polytheists are in clean.

59:20

So let them not approach al -Masjid al -Haram. What is al -Masjid al -Haram?

59:25

And let me just stop. Forgive me. I'm a human being. Sometimes I have feelings too.

59:31

But some of you Facebook Islam experts, would you have to look that up to know what it is?

59:41

If you do, shame on you. Shut up. I feel like I watched,

59:49

I think Carla posted the Bob Newhart clip. Stop it.

59:57

Stop it. And I'm not even gonna charge you five bucks for it. Stop it. So let them not approach al -Masjid al -Haram after this, their final year.

01:00:11

And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from his bounty if he wills. Indeed, Allah is knowing and wise.

01:00:17

Now, do you know what that text is saying? I do.

01:00:26

I do. There had been an agreement made.

01:00:34

This is talking. Look, if you don't understand the tribal system, if you understand that Mecca, for example, survived, it had to survive on caravan training.

01:00:47

It could not support itself. You had to have the caravans. You had the Kaaba. You had the al -Masjid al -Haram.

01:00:56

You had the Kaaba. The caravans coming, the pilgrims coming to do the pilgrimage and to do the circumambulation around the

01:01:10

Kaaba. This was economically absolutely vital to Mecca's existence.

01:01:19

And one of the economic arguments that was being made was if you stop this, in fact, this is one of the problems that Muhammad had when he was a quote unquote minority prophet.

01:01:29

He's preaching monotheism when the economy is based on polytheism. And people are saying, shut up, you idiot.

01:01:39

And so when it says, if you fear privation, have you ever thought why it says that? Have you ever given thought to it?

01:01:49

They're concerned that they're going to starve to death. Once the pilgrims stopped coming and the polytheism is done away with, it's like getting rid of Black Friday.

01:02:01

You know, that's really what they were fearing is that this we're done. We're going to be over with.

01:02:11

So, now it says their final year, an agreement had been made and they're going to be cut off. And people were saying, we can't cut them off.

01:02:17

Look what's going to happen. What's the point? The point is there's a historical context to this.

01:02:26

And there are some of you sitting in this audience that are disappointed. You are actually disappointed that there are

01:02:34

Muslims who look at Surah 9 and say, this was only relevant to that time period.

01:02:41

This was only relevant then. And you're actually disappointed that they would then garner their

01:02:48

Tafsir sources and their Hadith sources to put together a case that no, this is specifically about a time period that is not applicable today.

01:02:59

You're upset. You're angered by that. Wow. It amazes me.

01:03:08

Now, if you agreed with me that we have to allow

01:03:13

Matthew to define Matthew. And by the way, to all my Muslim friends out there, if you're listening to this going, yeah, see, you tell them white.

01:03:22

Don't you ever dare find you misrepresenting Matthew again with the quotation of,

01:03:28

I'm only sent to lost house people who lost out the chief lost house of Israel and ignoring

01:03:33

Matthew 28. Be fair, equal scales. If you're saying, yeah,

01:03:39

I'm appreciating the fact that you're at least representing the fact that there are Muslims. And they say, this is contextual.

01:03:45

This had a historical thing and it's not applicable outside of that. I'm not defending anything.

01:03:53

I'm simply pointing out to you. I have to debate people like this. Maybe you don't, but I do.

01:04:00

So I can't use lousy arguments. I have to go,

01:04:06

Hey, look at this. Even when I read the code on, I see this. There's a context to it.

01:04:14

Now that doesn't make verse 29. Give me warm feelings. In fact, how many times again, have

01:04:22

I pointed out? You go back sometime. Oh seven. Oh eight. Somewhere around there.

01:04:28

You will find me pointing out. I've pointed out in, in debates and unless I'm wrong and I haven't listened to everybody else.

01:04:39

I know, I know Nabil would know this. I'm pretty sure

01:04:45

Dave would know this. I'm pretty sure Sam would know this. I know Tony would know this. And by the way, could

01:04:51

I just say, I was listening to a debate Tony Costa did, um, on my ride yesterday.

01:05:01

I love that guy. Tony Costa is just one of the best out there. He really is.

01:05:06

Pray for him. Pray God's blessings upon him. We only have a certain number of people out there that can do this kind of work.

01:05:16

And Tony Costa, God bless you. Great guy. Really, really, really appreciated what

01:05:21

I was listening to. Really did. Um, want to have him on the program and I just, I want,

01:05:26

I want to have him on to talk about his book on, uh, Paul and worship of the risen Christ and Michael Brown got him before I did.

01:05:33

And we've been talking about it for a long time and I'm just, I'm just, I've got too many irons in the fire and too many things that I'm behind on.

01:05:40

But, uh, really thankful for Tony Costa. That was just a, didn't have anything else to do with what

01:05:45

I was talking about other than it was an Islam debate and he was doing a great job. And I'm, I'm really, he sends me notes all the time and what

01:05:54

Tony and other people who send me notes, people like in, in those of you who are good friends in Twitter, you send me good materials to look into.

01:06:02

You know who you are. If you don't hear back from me, please never ever take that as a slight.

01:06:09

Um, my wife really gets back from me. Okay. I just, it's just overwhelming at times, uh, to try to keep up with,

01:06:18

I don't have a secretary. I don't have a research assistant. It's all, I do it all other than rich doing the stuff that keeps the ministry going and helping with travel, stuff like that.

01:06:27

He's got his area. I've got my area and, and I'm at, I'm at 127 % out of a hundred.

01:06:34

And so if you don't hear back from me, Tony, thank you for all the stuff you send to me, everybody else. Thank you for all that stuff.

01:06:40

Even if I don't respond or can't respond or whatever, just something I wanted to say there, really appreciative of all those folks.

01:06:48

But, um, I was listening to a number of people who might know this, who might know the text well enough to know this, but this translation, um, ah, we're going over time.

01:07:07

Anyways, we're gonna go jumbo tonight, if that's okay. I'm, I'm going to go until I'm done and hopefully I'll shoot for a jumbo.

01:07:12

Um, and this is live. It's not edited. And so I want to, uh, look at this translation.

01:07:22

Okay. It does say humbled. Fight those who believe not in God in the last day and who did not forbid what

01:07:30

God and his messenger have forbidden and who follow not the religion of truth among those who were given the book till they pay the jizya with a willing hand being being humbled.

01:07:44

Interpretation. This is the study cut on by the way. I am so that I mentioned,

01:07:49

I think I mentioned on here. I'm so excited. Uh, I haven't heard back from him yet, so I'm not sure if it's arrived yet, but this is just to make people like Sam Shamoon and Tony Costa and David would jealous, but I sent this to ACE bookbinding and I'm going to have a leather bound edition of this.

01:08:11

This is, this is going to be my quick reference study cut on in future debates, not just electronic.

01:08:18

I have it in Kindle too, but sometimes you can actually get to something faster in a paper edition than you can electronically.

01:08:24

And during the debate, I'm going to get a cover for that thing, a case to carry it in, and it's to go with me to all my

01:08:29

Muslim debates. But you see, I've held this up for, see how many, see all the notes. Here's the, here's the text right here.

01:08:36

That's all there is to it. All the rest is notes. Not too many cut ons like this out there. Um, some interpret being humbled to mean that the treaty holders should tender the indemnity in a state of humility.

01:08:49

But some say at the very fact of paying the indemnity is tantamount to this being humbled or being the minor party.

01:08:56

In other words, that would interpret this as an, a positive use linguistically speaking, those of you who study linguistics.

01:09:04

Though the practice of forcing the treaty holders to pay the indemnity in a humbled manner was not unknown in Islamic history.

01:09:10

Many jurists, such as al -Nawawi, pointed out that the prophet and caliphs never did so and said that the treaty people's indemnity should be received with gentleness as one would receive payment of a debt.

01:09:22

Umar ibn al -Khattab reportedly, uh, agreed to call the indemnity charity, sadaqah, when asked to change its name from jizya.

01:09:33

That's interesting. Um, well, there is a lengthy discussion here.

01:09:44

Talks about dimitude, but I want to get into more of that. But what wasn't mentioned is something that I pointed out 2007, 2008, somewhere around there, the actual

01:09:59

Arabic term that is used in this text, that they are humbled.

01:10:08

My microphone, my earphone thing fell apart there. The actual text that is used here, the word is the same root that is used in the narrative of the casting out of Iblis from heaven.

01:10:25

When God says that he is degraded, it doesn't just mean humbled, it means degraded.

01:10:33

It's used, it's the exact word used in the Quran of the degradation of Satan and his being cast out from the presence of God.

01:10:43

And remember, I explained why Satan was cast out. There's a fundamental difference here. He was cast out for refusing to worship man.

01:10:52

God, Allah commanded that the angels bow down to Adam, Adam, and he refused to do so.

01:11:00

He was prideful. Problem there, major problem there. But the point is same term.

01:11:06

Now, how many other people have pointed that out? Is that not relevant to an understanding of, of this text?

01:11:18

So what's my point here? My point is

01:11:23

I want to be able to testify about Jesus Christ to every Muslim without having to lie about it.

01:11:33

It's that simple. Some of you have said, you're getting soft because you've got too many friendships with Muslims.

01:11:42

I've been thinking about that. And are you really seriously arguing that you're in a better position because you don't have any relationships with Muslim people?

01:11:59

Because you've never sat down at a meal and honestly explained to an imam why you love him and why you take the time to read all of the

01:12:16

Hadith? He knows most of his people haven't done that. And when you can look him square in the eye and say,

01:12:24

I've done it because I want to be able to speak to you. I want to be able to understand. I want to be able to have the context to witness to you of who my

01:12:33

Lord is. You think it's to your advantage that you've never done that?

01:12:39

Really? Now, would it be possible for me to become compromised out of friendships with Muslims?

01:12:49

Sure it would be. Look at what's happened with many people in regards to homosexuality. They've allowed their emotions to get in the way.

01:12:59

Now, have I shown emotion today? I have. Have I argued consistently from history, scripture, and from years of apologetic interaction across the spectrum?

01:13:13

I certainly have. I certainly have. So how are you going to reach the non -militarized

01:13:26

Muslims? Well, some of you some of you deny they exist.

01:13:34

Some of you are so rabid in your attitude that you seriously believe that there is no such thing as a non -militarized

01:13:44

Muslim. Hence, anyone who does not take that position is either engaging in Takiyah and is lying to you.

01:13:54

And how is that going to impact your presenting the gospel to them? Or they're not really a

01:14:01

Muslim at all. They're a non -Muslim. Both of those are going to fundamentally impact your willingness and ability to present the gospel to that individual.

01:14:21

You're not going to be able to actually speak to them in the context of their own beliefs. You're not going to be able to use their own language to be able to make the gospel clearer to them.

01:14:31

And that's what really concerns me here, is I am seeing so many people professing Christianity in social media, but they are acting out of the spirit of the world, not out of the spirit of Christ.

01:14:44

Not out of the spirit of Christ. Now, I am not saying that if you disagree with me on, well, if you disagree with me that there is no such thing as a non -militarized

01:14:58

Muslim, yeah, I think you got a serious problem. But here's another area of disagreement. There are those who would argue that ISIS is the purest form of Islam.

01:15:13

The purest form of Islam. And I can understand that argumentation.

01:15:24

I fully understand that argumentation. I am familiar with the line of tradition in Salafi Islam.

01:15:42

I know who Ibn Taymiyyah is. I get it.

01:15:51

And I can at least respect a person who will argue that that form of Islam goes back to Muhammad himself.

01:16:07

I hear you. Okay. But here's my problem.

01:16:15

If you're going to say that, then you're going to need to help me understand how you have been able to come up with a consistent foundation in the

01:16:32

Quran in the Hadith to make that argument that recognizes the contradiction and incoherence in those sources and does not engage in the very same kind of arbitrary pick your

01:16:51

Hadith type interpretation that I think mars so much of the actual

01:16:59

Islamic argumentation in this area. We've sat back and we've said, you're being arbitrary to pick, you know, you've got the various schools of jurisprudence.

01:17:14

But when you really dig in to what they're saying, it's, well, we prefer to create this lens of interpretation over this.

01:17:23

There's nothing that forces you to that, is there? And there has to be something that's going to force you to that if you're going to say that there is a pure form of Islam that ISIS represents today and see in a sense, in a sense, in my honest desire to reach

01:17:51

Muslims and to do so with accuracy and truthfulness, I'm actually taking a harder stance than many of you are because I'm saying the actual sources are not sufficiently clear.

01:18:09

They are internally incoherent. That's a, that's a strong argument.

01:18:17

I mean, that's, that's a bold argument. I mean, a lot of Muslims are just absolutely offended by that and I can understand that.

01:18:25

I better be able to back that up and I think I can. But isn't it ironic that a lot of the, that certainly most of the

01:18:35

Facebook warriors and some others who aren't just Facebook warriors but are actually involved in doing apologetics, to maintain your apologetic paradigm on the danger of Islam, you're actually granting to Islam's founding documents a consistency and historicity that they don't deserve to be given?

01:19:03

I hadn't thought about that, had you? Oh, maybe you have. I don't know. I don't want,

01:19:09

I won't put that out there. Someone, someone on Twitter is, has just gotten their first shipment of Rooibos tea.

01:19:25

Okay, so this means, Lauren, that this is now a, the official tea of the dividing line and we all get to brew our cups before, before the program and there you go.

01:19:41

Since, since you're taking a breath, we have someone on Facebook asking where they can find the audio hadith collections that you said you listened to on your bike.

01:19:54

I'll try to find the URL. There are no audio hadith collections.

01:20:00

The audio hadith collections exist on the hard drive of my computer. I found, there, there, there are numerous electronic

01:20:10

English sources of, and I'll have to find the one particular site.

01:20:18

All of Bukhari is available. All of Muslim is available. This particular site was still working on Tirmidhi and Ibn Dawud and some of the others.

01:20:32

They were incomplete. There were portions that were available and portions that weren't. I took the time to cut and paste, copy, you know,

01:20:43

I would go into each of the books. They're listed in, in the, in the book form, the book.

01:20:50

As most of you know, that looked at the hadith, there is no one way of citing them.

01:20:57

And that's extremely difficult. That doesn't excuse Tanner's mis -citing of them because there's still minimum ways that you have to cite and be able to find any reference.

01:21:07

But I literally took the time and it took some time, copy, put into my program, my program, program called

01:21:17

Text Speech Pro, available for both Mac and Windows, Text Speech Pro, and Convert to MP3.

01:21:26

That's what I did. So I will have files on my, in my iTunes library, um,

01:21:37

Bukhari 1 -4. That's books 1 through 4 of, of Bukhari.

01:21:44

And then 5 through 7 and 8 through 10 and so on and so forth. And it's just, it's the computerized reading.

01:21:53

A lot of people can't stand that. I am so accustomed to it now. I don't even notice it. Don't even notice it.

01:21:59

And then I put it on my little iPod and got on my bike.

01:22:05

And that's why, for example, when that imam, that Ethiopian imam started rattling on about that hadith about being able to kill women and children, first thought crossed my mind, oh yeah,

01:22:23

I remember that the next two hadith contradict that. And that's because I was listening to that and thought of this very thing, oh, last year, year before last, on Happy Valley Road, westbound, in the dark, 345 in the morning or so, on one of my rides.

01:22:41

That's how I study. I'm weird. I admit that. Doesn't work for everybody. But that's, that's how it works.

01:22:50

So I'll, I'll try to find the URL. It's, it's in my, it's in my bookmarks.

01:22:57

And sometimes those change over time. Some of them, like I said, there's a number of places where you can get that in English, but this one was particularly easy to cut and paste from, to copy from.

01:23:10

Some of the others weren't so easy. That's why this one is the best one to use for that. But I created my own files and you'd sort of have to do the same thing because there are no audio files like that, just floating around.

01:23:22

Okay. There aren't any that I know of. I suppose there might be somewhere.

01:23:28

And I'll tell you what, if anybody out there knows where there is a human read English version of the

01:23:36

Hadith, I'd like to get that because I need to start reviewing them again. I need to re -listen to them.

01:23:43

And I'd rather listen to a human being. You know, if, if I've got a choice of buying a book on Kindle or on Audible to listen to,

01:23:54

I'd rather listen to an Audible. You know, it is, it is a little bit more interesting than the electronic voice, but again, it's all a matter of priorities.

01:24:03

What, you know, how you want to, how you want to do that. You sort of helped me to, uh, find a, uh, not, uh,

01:24:15

Abu Kamer on, uh, on Twitter is sending me some stuff that looks interesting.

01:24:22

So it was what? I don't see anything underneath him.

01:24:28

The question about he's wanting the name of that study. Oh yeah. I did see that. I was, I was just about to do that.

01:24:33

What is the name of that study Quran? The study Quran. Okay. So they weren't overly imaginative in, in the name.

01:24:48

It's, it's called the study Quran. It's the study, the sort of like the Southern Baptist seminary.

01:24:54

It's the study Quran. It's not a Southern Baptist or just one of many. It is the, the study

01:25:00

Quran, a new translation and commentary published by Harper one Harper one.

01:25:07

Really fascinating. Harper one, uh, Syed Hossain Nasser, editor in chief is what you want to look for.

01:25:14

40 odd bucks on Amazon and hard copy. It is available for 30, I think something in Kindle though.

01:25:21

I've only looked at a little bit in Kindle and it's a little bit with, with this much study material, sometimes hard to find the text and Kindle.

01:25:31

I love Kindle because I can listen to it and stuff like that. But sometimes navigating

01:25:37

Kindle books is it's better than having nothing. I love being able to carry a library with me, but you know, sometimes there are advantages to plain old books.

01:25:45

There really are. And like I said, I sent, I've sent this to ACE bookbinding, look up ACE book by, is it

01:25:54

Oklahoma? You sent the thing. Was it Oklahoma? It is in Oklahoma. Um, there it is.

01:26:03

Yeah. Hi, here is my reader's

01:26:21

Hebrew and Greek Bible. If you've wondered what's back there and, uh, here it says,

01:26:28

I'll, I'll and Jill, the real gospel. And, uh, it's got a little Zondervan thing here and a little nicey little thing.

01:26:35

It's got the, you can't buy the reader's Hebrew and Greek Bible in beautiful blue leather with three orange things in it.

01:26:50

Can't buy that. I bought the hardcover or actually came, came with this really cheap cover on it.

01:27:02

It was, it wasn't nice. Sent it to ACE bookbinding and voila.

01:27:10

So I don't get anything for advertising for ACE bookbinding, but they're really good.

01:27:20

And a lot of people will contact me and say, yeah, you know, I just love this Bible, you know, and you've, you've got all these leather things and stuff like that.

01:27:27

ACE bookbinding, Google it. They're the top, top result. And, uh, tell them

01:27:33

I sent you because they're, they're, they're good folks. And, uh, I'm looking forward.

01:27:40

I promise you, I promise you the first dividing line after that thing arrives,

01:27:45

I will show you what the study could on can look like in a beautiful turquoise leather cover.

01:27:56

Hopefully by the end of the year, what's that you're pointing to something. Well, this is interesting.

01:28:11

Oh, okay. Um, yeah. Uh, Tim on Twitter asked about the

01:28:18

Ayub Kareem debate and the last word I had, I mentioned on Facebook, if I hadn't mentioned this, we'll, we'll wrap up with this.

01:28:27

I'm sorry. If I haven't mentioned this, um, the two debates with Yusuf Ismail were posted by, um, the other side before we were even, well,

01:28:42

I think we have, I think they've been given to our guys there, but we don't, we don't have them yet. So we haven't been able to make our own.

01:28:47

We'll get them posted and made eventually. But we linked, I linked anyways on Facebook or Twitter somewhere.

01:28:53

I linked to the ones that they put up, IPCI put up and Rudolph, my dear friend down there in South Africa tells me that I think last week, and I haven't heard back from him.

01:29:09

So Rudolph dropped me a note. If you're watching or listening, um, that we were supposed to be picking up the recordings from the

01:29:17

Ayub Kareem debate. And I'm really looking forward to getting that out because again, for those of you don't remember, that was the debate.

01:29:25

Ayub Kareem presents, um, the Akhmedidat position.

01:29:32

And hence there is a real usefulness there. It's a different kind of usefulness than some of the other debates where I'm trying to push, advance the topic.

01:29:45

Akhmedidat, you can't advance the topic, but there are so many Muslims in the world who have been deeply influenced by the

01:29:50

Akhmedidat, you still have to do those kinds of debates too. I try to do all of them because not all

01:29:56

Muslims are the same. Keep that in mind.

01:30:02

Keep that in mind. Um, yep. Well, here comes the music. So we will, that's a good way to keep me from going after the rest of what

01:30:10

I was going to talk about. So I've still got some more to say on this actually, but it'd probably be good to do it next time we're out.

01:30:19

So, um, Lord willing, we'll see on Thursday. Thanks for watching. Thanks for thinking.