Honest Christianity: Why do people still choose to believe? w/ Drew Cordell - Podcast Episode 199

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Welcome to the Got Questions podcast. So occasionally on our podcast, we like to invite a guest on, and that's the case today.

00:08

Joining me today is Drew Cordell. He's the author of Honest Christianity, Why People Choose to Believe.

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And as I was going through this book, I thought Drew has an interesting perspective on some of these things and a different even approach to how he does apologetics and worldview and leading people to faith in Christ.

00:33

I wanted to have him on today so we could just discuss some of these things. So Drew, thank you for joining me today.

00:39

Thanks for having me on the show, Shay. And if you didn't notice, Drew has a little bit of an accent. He's from Australia.

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And as much as I enjoy an Australian accent, I really have him on for the quality of the book, not just so I could listen to him talk.

00:53

I promise that's not my motivation. But Drew, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, how you came to faith in Christ and what led you to write this book?

01:03

Yeah, thanks, Shay. Thanks for calling my accent quality. I don't get that too often. So yeah, look,

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I'm born and raised in Perth, Western Australia. It's pretty much the most isolated city in the world, but it was a very ideal place to grow up.

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And I had something of a pretty idyllic childhood. I had two loving Christian parents who were strong Christians.

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And really from a very early age, I was exposed to Christianity and a lot of what

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I'd call, those sort of modern cool contemporary churches. So I had a really great experience of Christianity growing up and I'd say

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I had a Christian faith from as young as five, right through my childhood years, up to my teenage years.

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As is what is quite common, I sort of hit the university years and somehow my faith just went dormant.

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I wouldn't say that I ever lost my faith or anything like that. But my faith just went quite dormant and I just struggled to sort of see any connection between my faith and the everyday that I was doing at university at that time.

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It felt like I was preparing for career and Christianity was probably just something kept to a Sunday experience with some abstract ideas.

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And yeah, look, after university, I went and moved to London, which is what a lot of Australians do and started working over there and was privileged enough to meet a lot of other younger

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Christians who were really living and breathing their faith in the cut and thrust of a big city like London.

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And that really challenged me and that really ultimately brought my faith alive again.

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I realised I knew enough about the Christian faith that if it was true, then

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I had to invade and pervade every corner of your life and really from that point onwards as a 22 year old, 23 year old,

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I really let God in and into every nook and cranny of my life, which is very exciting and also very scary.

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And look, that led to me working for many years in London. I was privileged enough to work with a lot of successful businesses and leaders over there.

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And yeah, look, being a Christian in our generation is quite a rare thing, particularly in Australia, in the

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United Kingdom. And so you'd enter into lots of discussions with people all across the board who were really interested in my faith and asking challenging questions.

03:37

You know all about that Shay, don't you? And - We've done a few over the years, yes. And as time went on, you'd finish a lot of conversations with people and they would often ask for another resource to refer people to.

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So yeah, examine these questions further. And I recommended lots of books and the like, but I just felt there was a gap in the literary landscape that there wasn't a book which really articulated the evidences and a lot of the philosophical arguments and the best arguments for the

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Christian faith in a way that was suitably detailed enough, but that was also accessible by the lay person.

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There are obviously a lot of good books out there, but they were really focusing on scientific arguments, a lot of the philosophical arguments, but there wasn't something which really laid out,

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I thought, in proper detail, the credibility of the Bible. Also felt that, you know, there wasn't really a proper explanation in a book around what the death and resurrection of Jesus means.

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A lot of books that would say, oh, Jesus died for your sins, but there was no real explanation for the thinking person of what does that actually mean and how does that actually come about.

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And as I've said just previously, I just found that a lot of the tone in these books was somewhat unaccessible.

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And a lot of the times the authors would shoot the tough questions, not like got questions, of course, but just, yeah, on tricky questions of sexuality and things like that,

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I just found authors not even addressing the question or just shying away from it. So, yeah,

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I decided to write on Christianity about five years ago with those themes in mind and it covers off a lot of the classical questions that people ask of Christianity.

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You know, what about slavery? What about past atrocities that the church has committed? Issues of sexuality, misogyny, covers off all those and suffering, all those hot topics it covers.

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But I think where it really excels and the early feedback I've gotten is the chapter on the Bible and establishing the credibility of it is really solid.

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I've tried to make it detailed enough so that it gives people what they need and not too detailed so it becomes boring.

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So hopefully I found that balance. And like I said, I've just really, really tried to make the tone as accessible as possible.

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So you don't need a degree in theology to read it or to explain it to a friend. It's written so that, you know, a thinking person can digest it and enjoy it,

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I hope. So yeah, Shay, look, hopefully it helps people discover what

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I think the truth of Christianity is. And it's a beautiful thing. It's changed my life. I think it's great for the world.

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I don't think it's something that you just believe on a Sunday. I think this is something that invades and pervades every corner of your life, in your career, in your relationships.

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God is a big God who cares about his creation and he wants people to live unto his purposes. So I just,

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I'm really hungry for people to learn that and I hope that my book can play a part in that.

06:46

Well, fantastic. No, I love your heart, love your motivation. And let me ask you this, the actual title,

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Honest Christianity, and why the term honest? And what about that is specific to you in this book?

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Yeah, look, it almost sounds a little bit silly at first hearing, doesn't it? It's a bit akin to saying healthy carrot.

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It's sort of Christianity by its nature is supposed to be honest. But yeah,

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I've just felt that perhaps over my journey as a Christian, I haven't always seen apologists and Christian ministers at different points, perhaps being honest around gaps in their argument or shortcomings in the evidence that we have.

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For instance, in my book, I mentioned that we don't have a lot of manuscripts between 0

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AD and 200 AD. Rarely have I seen sort of apologists or other people just mention that and disclose that.

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And it doesn't mean that Christianity is suddenly untrue. But I just think that people just want an honest presentation of the evidences that we have without jumping to overly strong conclusions, both sides of the aisle.

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And so that's where the name came from. And look, potentially when I was living in London, this is slightly silly, but I was a fan of Honest Burgers, the burger chain over there.

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So hopefully I haven't broken copyright or anything, but Honest has somewhat of a good brand name.

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I think people like the sound of it when they hear it. It feels positive and open. And yeah, that's how I came to it.

08:28

Yeah, I don't think you need to worry about anyone trademarking the word honest. I think that's kind of like general communication rule exempts that word from being copyrighted by anyone.

08:36

But no, that's fascinating. I too have experienced people like overstating the case or making too strong an argument.

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When even like Hebrews 11 talks about how even we have to accept by faith that God exists.

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So even the core foundational truth on which everything else about Christianity falls apart.

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If God doesn't exist, everything we're talking about is pointless. Even that has to be accepted by faith. So don't think that you have to explicitly be on the shadow of any doubt, prove every single doctrine of Christianity in order for it to be believable.

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That's not what we're called to do, but it's ultimately so much of our faith in Christ is based on trust.

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It's about faith. It's not with the lack of evidence, but it's not all about being able to explicitly prove absolutely everything.

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No, I absolutely agree with that. And we do live in the year 2023, some 2000 years after the death of Christ.

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And I think it's inevitable that, yeah, we're gonna have lots of questions and there's gonna be time gaps there.

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And look, I think they're really fascinating. Yeah, they're a challenge to be sure. But I think the story of Christianity is a remarkable one to think of the way that it's thread its way through our history and everything.

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It really is remarkable, and particularly the story of the Bible and how that's come to be and how that's pervaded

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Western culture and many other things. I don't think that's something you can ignore. So yeah, like you said,

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I don't think there's this sort of open and shut, slammed down case. Like, of course you believe.

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Look, here's just the evidence. You just got to look at it and make a decision and open your heart.

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I feel when people have an open heart and I think when reading my book, the reader does have to have an open heart.

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It's not written to that hardened atheist who really has incredibly strong philosophical ideas against the existence of God.

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It's not written to that person. I think there are plenty of good books out there and better books that I'd recommend for people in that realm.

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But yeah, if someone is open to just wanting to see the evidence in a plain unbiased way then

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I think my book can help. Awesome. So on your website, honestchristianity .org,

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you have a quote up there from C .S. Lewis. I love this quote and I'd love to hear specifically what book it's from because I don't recall it directly.

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But the quote is, Christianity, if false, is of no importance and if true, of infinite importance.

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The one thing it cannot be is moderately important. So I'm curious for you, why do you have that quote?

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I'm assuming it's a quote that you love and how does that speak to you and the ministry, the calling that God has on your life?

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Yeah, great question. The quote, I believe, comes from his work, God and the Dock, which

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I believe is one of his lesser known works. But yeah, look, I love the quote. I overuse it a lot.

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My friends are probably sick of me quoting it. But why does it speak to me so much?

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Look, it's a direct challenge to me personally. I think I mentioned before, just talking about my story in coming to faith.

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I came to a realization that Christianity, is gonna either pervade everything or it's just not.

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And I do think it is quite binary in a personal perspective like that. And I think it just challenges people out there.

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A lot of people, and I don't wanna get into the mind of C .S.

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Lewis. It would be an interesting thing to do. What is he trying to say there?

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I think in the culture, he's trying to say to people, a lot of people, perhaps in the post -war culture that he's writing to in England and beyond, a lot of people were having a bit of a party after the war and perhaps being a bit more liberal in their lives.

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And he's just saying, look, you can sort of try and pass off Christianity as just this sort of cultural thing.

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And Jesus is a good moral teacher and it's just sort of dismiss

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Jesus, sort of give it historical credibility, but at the same time dismiss it. He's really saying, look, you can't really do that.

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Either this is the ball game or it's not. Jesus isn't something that you can just put on your bookshelf and go, yeah, look, he's the most famous person of all time.

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Oh, well, I'm just gonna get on with my life and do my own thing. I think you are, as human beings, compelled to make a decision as to who

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Jesus is, what he is in your life. So that's probably a bit of a waffly answer.

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It's a great question. I probably need to give it some more thought, but I think that's the essence of it.

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Be interested to hear your thoughts. No, to me, it's similar to his famous trilemma.

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He's either a liar, a lunatic, or he's Lord. It's like he can't be just unimportant.

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That option is not left to us. He's either everything or he's nothing. So no, I think, since it's not your quote,

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I don't have to ask you for your permission to use it, but I'm very interested in that concept as well.

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And I think it really does help to, a different way of thinking about our lives and to what priority we give to Christ, not only as people and human beings in general, but as Christians, is he just part of your life or is he your life?

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I mean, it needs to be of utmost importance because he's God, he's Lord, he's our savior.

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Yeah, absolutely. And look, watching The Chosen, I've particularly loved watching

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The Chosen because it brings to life some of those stories with the disciples. And obviously,

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I get there's an element of artistic license, but you visually get a sense of the disruption that he's causing in these people's lives, both good and bad.

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And yeah, I think he does that. And I try not to focus on the bad so much.

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I think it's really exciting. Jesus has disrupted my life and it's really, really exciting.

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Yeah, to think that I'll be here speaking to you, a business consultant from Perth, having written a book on apologetics.

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Yeah, it's thoroughly disrupted my life and all the better, it's a lot of fun.

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It's exciting. Yeah, and to think that I wanted to be a computer programmer who was happy to let

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Jesus be a part of my life, but the idea that he would be my everything, that he would be my purpose for living, my purpose for serving, the thing

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I come to work every day and absolutely love to do. If you would have asked me that question, how old am

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I now? 30 years ago, I would have, no, that's not me, but it's me now.

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So it's amazing how God takes people like you and me, like millions of other people who turns their life upside down and then uses them in extraordinary ways, far beyond anything we could ask or imagine.

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No, for sure. And yeah, look, I really think there's a space in the world where people don't,

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I think Christians don't really understand how much really God wants to invade and pervade their marketplace.

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And that, in particularly in our Western context in working culture, and I've had my challenges with it, but I really don't think

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God wants you to hide your light under a bushel. He doesn't want you to be this raging maniac,

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I don't think. Well, if he calls you to do that, great, you'd be obedient and do it. But I think there really is something to be challenged in our culture around, yeah, when culture is becoming less and less

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Christian, if you're not rubbing against the workplace and getting some sparks,

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I think there's a challenge there to go, what's going on? So let me ask you two questions about your book, and, or really about honest

17:33

Christianity in general, but I know it goes beyond just writing a book. It's your life.

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It's something I always like to ask. People are interested and fascinated by apologetics. I'll throw them both at you, and then you can answer them in whichever order you choose.

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What to you is your favorite apologetics -related question to answer? And what to you is the most difficult apologetics -related question to answer?

18:03

Oh, that's a great question. I'll start with the most difficult. The most difficult one at the moment is the question on sexuality.

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So I've written a pretty honest and direct chapter on that in the book, where I adopt a conservative position on sexuality.

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So intellectually, I find it straightforward to answer, but just the cultural temperature at the moment and how high the emotions are, it's incredibly hard to answer it.

18:36

Look, just recently, I've probably lost a very close friend who holds very passionate views on this subject.

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So that's been an incredibly hard journey for me, which I'm currently going through right now. So look, that question's incredibly hard.

18:53

The easiest or the one that I enjoy, answering the most, oh, look,

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I probably need a bit of pause time on the podcast to think about it. Look, I think, look, the suffering question,

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I enjoy engaging with it because often it's very deeply personal for people.

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They've gone through their own experiences with suffering. And look, it's something that I really struggle with.

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And I think every Christian forever and a day will struggle with the problem of evil and how that comes about in the world.

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But I probably enjoy talking about it because it just unpacks so much in the other person.

19:39

Yeah, it really goes to their life story a lot of the time. And I'm sure my listeners,

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Shay, can just relate to that themselves when they have friends and family go through hardship.

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It brings you closer together a lot of the time, and it really does unpack people's stories and the challenges that they've had in life.

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So I really enjoy that one. The questions sort of around the past atrocities of the church and does the

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Bible endorse slavery and a lot of those apologetic type questions, I never really think they're genuine objections to Christianity.

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I feel a lot of the times those are questions which people use as excuses to belief.

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I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that. Look, I've included them in the book because I feel that it's just a lot of the times where people come to that point of, excuse me, of wanting to make a decision for faith.

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They just wanna make sure they're not signing up to something which endorses slavery or which endorses misogyny or whatever.

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I don't think it takes much research to realize that it really doesn't. And it's more just a sense check, a health check before people jump in, but I don't really think those questions are genuine.

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Look, apart from persons who have obviously suffered from slavery themselves, that's the caveat

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I would say there and other things. But yeah, I hope that made sense.

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It does, like to what you said about suffering. I agree with you. I enjoy those types of questions because suffering is,

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I could say, a universal Christian experience or human experience, if not universal, nearly universal.

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It's something we can all relate to. And I've seen many apologists instantly go the philosophical route in trying to explain why

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God allows this and God is sovereign and all these things. I'm like, this is actually a hurting person who right now just needs comfort.

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Very often the philosophical aspect comes later. But when a person just experienced a tragedy, they don't need a thorough lesson on theodicy and the problem of evil and all these different things.

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Stuff like that can come later. What they need right now is love and grace and mercy and compassion.

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The other things that are Christians are also called to do, in addition to always being ready to give an answer for the hope that we have.

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In terms of other questions, a lot of people who will like to go on a sidetrack in terms of something like, oh,

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Christians in the past supported slavery or supported misogyny or this particular church committed these horrific crimes.

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And it's like, yes, but could I show you how all of those things go directly against the actual teachings of the

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Bible, especially the teachings of Jesus Christ? Yes, some of the Bible was written into a culture, a society where those things were common.

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And maybe the Bible doesn't forbid them as strongly as we would like, but you just gotta remember,

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God was in the business of redeeming hearts, transforming souls, not in transforming a culture in a secular sense.

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So all that, there are really good explanations we can give as Christians to those type of arguments.

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But no, often they're thrown up as a defense mechanism because it's the only thing they know about Christianity is, well, 200 years ago, some

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Christian supported slavery. And it's like, yes, I can't deny that that's true, but I can show you from the

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Bible how that's not God's heart, it's not God's desire at all. So that's generally how

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I approach it. No, absolutely. And yeah, in your words there, yeah, you raised a great, just a great principle of exercising empathy with people.

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And it's something that I've got to consistently remind myself to do. When someone asks a question, yeah, try and remember there's a person behind the question and to really try and unpack that.

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Don't make any assumptions, really try and put yourself in the shoes of person and really lean in.

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And yeah, I think over the years I've gotten better at truly just trying to understand the person's perspective rather than hearing a question and then just sort of jumping in with an answer.

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I see that all too often apologetics, as you've said, just so critical to sit back, ask questions, listen, clarify questions as well.

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Yeah, I think for me coming from a sales and marketing consulting background, that's really helped me just that,

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I've had lots of corporate training in that realm. And it's selling and marketing is not about sort of throwing information at people and shoving ideas and arguments down people's throats.

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It's actually helping people to make an informed decision. And that's what we as Christians need to do.

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That's what we're called to do in that undefensive posture. So yeah, so critical

25:04

Shay. So Drew, let me ask you this for my closing question.

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And I know the answer to this will depend greatly on the situation of the person you're talking to, but what have you found to be a really effective argument for the

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Christian faith when sharing with, I could say the people of today, and I know that's incredibly broad, but just in your experience, what's an argument or a principle that you've been able to share that you found really seemed to be catching people's interest today?

25:38

Yeah, look, I wouldn't say, look, I wouldn't say there's really an argument per se. I can't speak to your

25:45

American context probably as well. I don't wanna make too many assumptions. I've spent most of my life in the

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United Kingdom and Australia and a bit in America as well. But I know that in particular, what

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I've found is it's not so much that there's one particular argument or something that piques a person's interests, it's they just don't see the relevance of Christianity at the moment in our culture.

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We're just becoming less and less Christian. They see old church buildings.

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They might even see old church ministers, old terminology, quite conservative opinions, dogmatic styles of communication.

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And people are just going, they're just not interested. So if you can just create an interest, and for me, it's as simple as telling someone that I'm a

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Christian. It's as simple as when I get to the office on a Monday and I'm by the water cooler and someone asked me what

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I've done for the weekend, I will tell them that I've gone to church. And I think that's the most powerful thing.

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And over the years, when people have seen me, a relatively younger person who can speak

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English and make an argument and who goes to church, that really sows a seed in people's hearts.

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And suddenly they go, well, okay, if there's something there for Drew, then maybe there is something worth considering here and that generates interest.

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And I think to my earlier point, just around the marketplace and whether you're a mother or a grandma, top flight management consultant, wherever you are,

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I think if you just let your faith invade and pervade all those corners, and I think it's as simple as saying,

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I went to church on Sunday, or we're going to church this Christmas and we're going to this carol service and whatever it may be, telling people, asking people if you wanna pray for them.

27:47

I think that's the first step that we as Christians need to start making a lot. And I'm talking to myself here.

27:54

I don't wanna come across that I do this all the time. I need to do it more and more. I think it's that.

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Look, in addition as well, look, I think the science stuff and the new atheism realm, it really has come off the boil a lot.

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There's a book been written recently about that. I think it might've been written by Justin Briley.

28:16

I'm not too sure. But if people Google it, there is a book that's been written about the new atheist movement, which

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I think highlights a lot of those sort of, sort of noughties questions and come off the boil,

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Shay. I mean, you'd be well placed to talk to that. I think it is more social now, issues around sexuality that people are interested in.

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I think the concern that, hey, if I become a Christian, am I suddenly gonna become this bigoted idiot, which is taking away people's freedoms and destroying people's identities?

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You know, is that gonna happen? And I can confidently say, no, it doesn't. But I think getting people to that place where they take a proper honest look at it,

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I think is the first challenge. So being avert is the best recommendation that I would make.

29:05

Roger, thank you for that. I agree with you, the personal touch, the people seeing a difference in you and just being bold and saying something as simple as, hey,

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I went to church, you can be a light in very, very simple ways and yet a powerful light at that.

29:27

So Drew, thank you for coming on the podcast with me today. Honest Christianity, why people still choose to believe.

29:38

Say, if I were to describe the book in one word, I would describe it as honest. And that's probably what

29:44

I appreciate most about it is that you strive to take a very honest look at these issues and not overstate the case, but not understate it either.

29:54

But just like, look, here are the reasons to believe from a very honest standpoint, a very honest attitude and a humble spirit.

30:03

And so I really appreciate that as well. So Drew, keep doing what you're doing. We'll include links to where Honest Christianity can be purchased and it's well worth reading.

30:14

Thank you very much, Shay. That's very kind of you to say, and thank you for having me on the show. And look, thanks again for the

30:22

Got Questions ministry. You've been doing this for a lot longer than me and you've ministered to people all across the globe, especially in furthest, farthest

30:32

Perth, Australia. People down here love the honest approach that you take to your ministry and may it long continue.

30:43

Well, thank you for that encouragement. I appreciate that as well. So it's been the Got Questions podcast with Drew Cordell, author of Honest Christianity.