June 27, 2016 Show with Robert H. Bennett on “Demon Possession & Spiritual Warfare”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who

are living on the planet earth listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you a happy Monday on this 27th

day of June 2016.

And I know that I always say at the beginning of every program that I'm excited about the program that I'm about to do

but it is, I know, getting redundant that I'm saying this but I am

very excited about this program because ever since I launched Iron Sharpens Iron

in 2006, I have always wanted to conduct a program on demon

possession and a lot of people that I know and a lot of people in the listening

audience have asked me to do a program on it because being a Reformed

Baptist and having most of my close

associations in the church being very conservative theologically

Reformed Christians who are outside of the Charismatic or Pentecostal

movements and obviously not Roman Catholic either.

I was raised Roman Catholic but became a born -again believer in the 1980s

and was saved by the providence of God in a theologically Reformed church.

So I always wanted to do this program but coming from the perspective of

someone who is not either Roman Catholic or from a more of a fringe group

of Charismatics or Pentecostals because it seems that they are the only groups that

talk about this.

Now obviously Roman Catholicism, the exorcisms that take place are very

rare these days and I don't even know if you could call them legitimate

and of course you have some Charismatic and Pentecostal churches that have them every single worship service.

In fact their own members often get exorcised of demons,

or so they think, on a regular basis every week, maybe multiple times a week.

So I wanted to get somebody from more of a traditional conservative theological background

and he happens to be Lutheran, a Missouri Synod Lutheran, and I'm eagerly looking forward to this program

today with Dr. Robert H. Bennett.

He is the executive director of the Luther Academy and adjunct professor of Missiology and

International Missions Specialist at Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

He is dedicated to illuminating the problems of American spirituality through the lens of biblical

and confessional theology and we are discussing two of his books today,

I Am Not Afraid, Demon Possession and Spiritual Warfare, and Afraid,

Demon Possession and Spiritual Warfare in America.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time, Dr. Robert H.

Bennett.

It's wonderful to be here with you today.

And let me on air introduce you to my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Dr. Bennett, very good to meet you.

And let me offer you our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a

question of your own for Dr. Robert H. Bennett.

Our email address here is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

That's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

And if you're writing us, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA.

And you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

Perhaps you know of someone that you believe is demon possessed or there's some other

reason that you want to remain anonymous.

In fact, obviously if you're asking about someone that you do know, we would insist

that you remain anonymous because we don't want to identify somebody, especially if we were

wrongly identifying somebody as being demon possessed on the air.

But we look forward to hearing from you and your questions.

And before we even go into the subject at hand,

Dr. Bennett, why don't you tell our listeners about Luther Academy and also about Concordia Theological

Seminary in Fort Wayne, Indiana?

Well,

Luther

Academy

exists to

provide

theological

funding

and

many provide their food of

the intensive.

Great.

And Concordia Theological

Seminary in Fort Wayne?

Concordia Theological Seminary is a seminary.

We have a number of

programs.

Oh, great.

And you are

affiliated with

the seminary in St. Louis?

No, this is in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

The one would be in St. Louis.

The other would be in Fort Wayne.

What I meant was that the seminary is affiliated in some way.

Oh, yes, absolutely.

Right.

And I think Buzz had a question.

Well, yeah, I just wanted to repeat what you specifically teach.

I teach an area of missiology, specifically in the PH program, PhD program.

Well, I'm just thinking of our listeners, missiology.

The study of

missions coming

out of

Christianity.

Yes, missiology is not the study of southern bells.

Yes, I was hoping that would be clarified. Thank you.

And tell our listeners also something about the

Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.

I know that many folks within evangelical Christianity, when I mention a

someone that I might be interviewing who is Lutheran, they very quickly

jump to the wrong conclusion that this is somebody from ELCA, the

Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, and they immediately associate that with extreme liberalism, with being

in favor of homosexuality, with having women in the pastorate and

so on.

More things that we could even begin to mention.

But obviously the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is one of the more conservative,

Bible -based and confessional denominations within Lutheranism.

We are.

I think there's a couple of the smaller...

Now, I have to right away ask you about the two titles

that are contradictory.

You have your first book, I Am Not Afraid, Demon Possession and Spiritual Warfare,

and the second book is Afraid, Demon Possession and Spiritual Warfare in America.

Did you make a mistake the first time and then wind up being afraid?

Why the two different titles?

I did

not.

The first

book,

however, these

people

who all

these

horrendous...

Now it's a life, even though

it's...

Now they're able to...

Well, Dr. Bennett, this must be of great interest to our listeners,

because I've already got a whole bunch of questions that have come in already.

So let me go first to John in Justin, Texas.

He writes,.

Demonic possession is held by many belief systems as a reality, but

the degree of that reality and the many forms it takes on are varied.

First of all, does your belief system acknowledge the reality of demonic possession?

And if so, do you believe that there is a universal spiritual solution that

can eradicate all forms of demonic possession, irrespective of the origins

or degree of its reality?

Well, a lot of

these

questions...

Whenever I give any type of...

Only one exorcist.

He may use...

But it's the one who can set us free from death.

And so it's one of the things that I showed in the first book.

Yeah, in fact, that's why I opened up the way I did.

I'm a Reformed Baptist, and you very rarely ever hear Calvinists speaking on the issue.

Although I do want to...

There are a couple of books, one by Banner of Truth, and Dr. Joel Beakey has written a book that

involves Satan and demonic influence, but I'm not 100 sure

they involve exorcism or demon possession.

But I will see if I could get to them on a future date to have those interviews.

But before we even go into what you were just describing, I just want to go to one more listener question,

because it's very relevant to start the program as well.

This is Jim in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Whenever non -Christians, especially here in America, hear about possessions and demons in any kind

of news story, the first response is to blame superstition and or say they are

faking it.

We can see how Satan works in the USA using subtlety and

deception, which causes us Americans to dismiss anything involving

demons as unscientific.

But what about in places like Africa?

I've heard that the occult and demonic possession is much more open in other countries, and you can

see the spiritual warfare happening in black and white, rather than shades of gray

as in the US.

Can you discuss why they are so different, and if I've heard

wrong?

No, let's talk

about other various

forms of

early animism and

believe in demons.

I'm not talking about the

occult.

And so this

is

possessed by

those spirits that they think are their ancestors or

other type of spirits.

They don't necessarily call them demonic.

Indeed, no

matter

how you

are

reacting or

demons, please possess

me to maybe

know to the dead,

pretend to be these other various spirits.

He

always

comes in

the

devil because

he's

afraid he

can

society.

Well, I already know that.

I'm inviting you back on the show to discuss that third book next year.

Yes.

And well, you said that you wanted to go into the first book, the Genesis.

If you let me, I didn't finish answering your question on the titles.

I never got to the second.

Oh, yeah, right, right.

That's right.

The book Afraid was written really because we hadn't

talked about this.

I've got this problem.

I couldn't

relate

people's problems

because once again, many

of

these

stories...

And so you were studying the Malagasy culture

and weren't even expecting or intending to write a book on demonic

possession or exorcism.

And so tell us about more about how that whole developed.

And also what seems to be some kind of an

ignoring of this issue by the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, and obviously

also a lot of the heirs of the Reformation, the other

reformed branches of the Reformation today.

You don't hear a lot about this subject either.

But if you could tell us about this in the first book, how this all came about.

Sure, as I went there to do my research on just the topic of conversion,

one of the first...

In Madagascar, because of this...

Lutheran Church doesn't...

They do an exorcism of place, which is really...

And the words be gone in the name of...

To clear out any...

No one actually responded of all the

thousand

sidelines.

Actually, when she heard the words be gone in the name of Jesus, she started convulsing and screaming

out.

And it was interesting because all the pastors and the lay people there,

specifically on my webpage, Afraidbook...

I think it's book .com.

It could be books.

And there's actually a video there.

It's hard for us to understand because it's in Malagasy.

Words that are being spoken over

and

over.

It was quite odd to me.

At first, I thought it was somebody trying to...

I was very critical as well.

I didn't...

I heard about the church.

I found out this is actually a pretty common occurrence.

And actually, people would never want to pretend in this sense

to the animistic world.

It's an unashamed culture.

A big shame at that point to be one who's found to be possessed.

So that's how I walked into the topic.

And I decided to do interviews of people who were

new to the Jews.

What I did is I had these forums.

I'd do interviews all over the country.

So all over the island.

And we came up with some very common themes.

There's stories.

The book is filled with individual stories.

Focusing on before they were Christians.

Part of that first book, I Am Not Afraid.

But then after writing it, I was wondering, okay, well, what about our Lutheran church?

Because when I went to seminary, I know I asked

the question about demonic possession, spiritual

warfare, if you

come upon

them.

So

then

what I did, I

looked at...

Great, well, I will pursue those questions.

But I do want to get to some more of our listener questions as well.

Tom in West Islip, Long Island, New York.

This is likely a very common question asked.

But what is done to discern between mentally ill -driven behavior and a true

possession?

In addition, when viewing subject matter on this topic, it appears

it is important for the demon to state its name.

Is that true?

And if so, why?

I know it's very impromptu in

the

research

that I did.

Madagascar,

the

woman who has the spirit, who is the medium.

He simply says, be gone

in the name of as Jesus is dealing with

these demons and so forth.

And how Jesus deals with understanding of

the name, it

only

really shows one

thing and

two more, is they make a point in these books that...

Well, that was like the primary focus of the movie, The Exorcist, I

believe.

Right, absolutely.

And of course, that comes from real events out of a situation

that's problematic,

whatever we see as an individual.

And when we return from the break, we'll have you comment more on the discernment on mental illness versus

genuine demonic possession, as our listener in West Islip had asked.

And we're going to a break right now.

And by the way, I've got a surprise for all of you.

All of you folks who have written in with questions, you're all getting a free copy of one

of the two books that we are giving away today.

So make sure that we have your full mailing addresses so we can mail you out these books,

compliments of Concordia House Publishing.

And also, they're being shipped out to you, compliments of our

friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

cvbbs .com, Cumberland County Bible Book Service, who

mail out all of our author books at no expense to Iron Sharpens Iron, and we

thank them for that.

And I misspoke.

It's Concordia Publishing House, not Concordia House Publishing.

My apologies to Concordia Publishing House for inverting the name there.

But we are going to be returning any moment now after this break.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnz.

And if you've just tuned us in, our guest today is Dr. Robert Bennett.

Our ad went out of control there.

Our guest today is Dr. Robert H. Bennett, and he is going to be on for both hours today discussing his two books,

I Am Not Afraid, Demon Possession and Spiritual Warfare, and his more recent book,

Afraid, Demon Possession and Spiritual Warfare in America.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at

gmail .com, that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

And Dr. Robert Bennett is dedicated to studying Malagasy

culture and the evangelism methods employed by the Malagasy Lutheran Church.

He is Administrative Pastor at Trinity Lutheran Church and School in Reese, Michigan, and Adjunct

Professor of Missions at Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

And this topic has been something I've been longing to do for quite

some time, although I've touched on it in other broadcasts.

I've never dedicated a full hour or full two hours just to the one subject of demon

possession and exorcism.

So I'm hoping you're being blessed by this as much as I am.

And before the break, one of the questions that Tom in West Islip, Long Island, New York

asked you was how to discern between that which is a mental phenomenon

coming from mental illness of some kind and that which is truly demon possession.

Sure, and one thing just to clarify before we move forward, I think you read the information on the back of the first book.

I'm no longer at Trinity Lutheran Church.

Yeah, that's the way I

introduced you the first time.

Right, right.

I appreciate that.

Back to the topic of mental illness, a big topic.

We'll talk about it for a while and you can continue to get out on the table.

Think

about

exorcism

should be

because here today,

it

doesn't

mean

society

continues more

and

more

spiritual

by the

devil.

We

need

to be very cautious

when seeking

those who are

in a weakened position.

So I think we can

establish that

many times not, but many times we can.

And God

has

provided

means

there.

Oh, yeah.

I want you, by the way, Dr. Bennett, I want you when you answer questions to just be as

thorough as you feel led to be.

You don't have to think that you have to be enslaved to some kind of formula on my end.

I want you to answer to the fullest expression that you

care to.

Absolutely.

So going to mental illness, I do teach in the...

One thing I

carry outward, some of

the more extraordinary,

some of the more common,

but most of the time it seems to be in that category of torment where you have this person

to go

wrong.

And the

brain

is going

to

be

using

brain

for

that

person.

There is any evil that you're causing any problems

and the

circumstance.

We take

access of down to

it with the understanding

that

in it.

So that answers the question.

Yeah, and I do still want to go to the departure from

the discussion of demon possession and things like that, that took place not

only in Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, perhaps Lutheranism in general, but the

other branches of the Reformation whose heirs

rarely discussed this.

So I do want to get back to that, but we have so many listener questions.

I do want to at least get one more, especially since this one is a colleague in the

Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod ministry of yours.

I'm not saying that he knows you personally, but he is an ordained Lutheran Missouri Synod

pastor.

Uh, when I was, oh, this is a pastor, David Anglin of the St.

Paul's Lutheran Church in Amityville, Long Island, New York.

When I was attending Concordia Seminary in St. Louis in the late 1970s, there was a lively

oral tradition that the seminary had been heavily involved in the original case on

which the exorcist was based.

Basically the contention was that the seminary, like the family's pastor in suburban DC,

had failed in driving out the demon.

So the Jesuits were called in and succeeded.

However, in none of the books, documentaries, and websites devoted to the case in

Concordia St. Louis, in none of the books, documentaries, and

websites devoted to the case is Concordia St. Louis ever mentioned.

Does Dr. Bennett have any information on involvement of Concordia St. Louis in the original case from

the 1940s, I believe.

Blessings be with you, cordially, Pastor David Anglin, Amityville, New York.

I do actually.

There was a book and

it was written

on

a PDF.

I'm not in the distribution business.

I don't have any rights to be distributing for it.

But there was a

book that tried to deal with this issue once again.

And he actually does name some names and give...

However, the book actually wasn't a very good source on the rest of the topic

because the seminary student who tried to do this, he really didn't look deep enough.

Okay, well, we were trying to eventually get to your thoughts on why

the Lutheran Church and obviously other more conservative, traditional,

reserved types of churches have really...

It seems that they have become embarrassed, disinterested, or

perhaps even frightened.

I don't know.

But to delve into the area of the demonic realm, demonic possession, exorcism,

why do you think that this occurred?

Especially, obviously, your main experience is with the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod.

So if you could explain that.

Sure.

Even Fundamentalist Baptists and other groups like that.

Sure.

Well, you know, it's interesting.

In my

research

here, during his time, he

identified three problems or causes.

Seminaries.

And I want more

of an academic to talk about

society today.

And just think of how rarely now people are expressing

their own

religions, believed as.

So I think that's one of the major reasons that we have lost

this point, was

that

it became

very difficult.

He says this, Evil cannot be seen by evil just as...

Yeah.

Thank you for answering that question.

But, you know, I think he's right on all these points.

Within our churches, it just

became, as

rationalism

followed it back to where we lost it.

You know, at the very beginning,

likewise in Fort Wayne, it was actually a part of the pastor.

He actually wrote,

talked

about

it as

being a thing

that

still

happened.

And I know you guys here have a hard time understanding that, but it's still a reality.

And then from there, it disappeared.

It no longer exists.

Now, do you think some of this, there is a fear, I know, at least amongst

Calvinists.

Calvinists, my fellow Calvinists, so I want my listeners to be clear.

I'm not insulting anybody that is not from a background that I also possess.

Calvinists have a dreaded fear of guilt by association.

And they, you know, sometimes people may even start to get help heart palpitations

and grow faint if somebody is raising their hands in the congregation, because they don't want to be associated

with the charismatic movement or the Pentecostal movement.

And then, of course, you also have those that don't want to be associated with the superstitions of Rome.

Now, do you think that has something to do with the more conservative Protestant

groups wanting to just totally leave this on a back shelf somewhere?

Because they just don't want to be associated with things that appear to be superstitious, anti

-intellectual, and filled with charlatanry.

And I think you touched right on exactly where we're at right now.

I was giving you the, but I think

you described very well.

And of course,

following one

of these,

you deal too much

with this because of that very reason that you put forth.

However, I must say that from

their local pastors

and because of some of what they told them,

or

when we turn this subject over to the more fringe theologies and

no longer speak on the subject, now we're not the flock that God

puts before us.

You

can't

deny these

topics,

find these

stories

if you go

back.

What we've done is we've turned this over because of that

fear that's driving there.

You know, I think we've got to strike up a little bit of balance here because, well,

I'll give you an example.

And I think the word that we're not using here is, and I think believers should not think of this stuff as being spooky,

you know, in that regard.

I'm not sure, why not?

Well, because we are believers and we understand the nature.

Well, I want to get more into the biblical text later on, but my point is this, you know, there are those who won't want to have anything to do with it because they

feel it's spooky, something.

I just don't want to be anything around the other.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

The other is, well, unfortunately, we had an interview on a local

Christian station where some ladies were exorcists.

This was not my program.

No, no, no.

This was Radio Waves.

But they were talking very light about it, like, well, you know,

everybody has back problems and, you know, some people regularly go to a chiropractor and, you know,

sometimes we have demon problems, too, and so, you know, you should go to your exorcist on a regular basis and get, you

know, de -demonized or whatever.

You know, that's such a cavalier attitude towards it.

Well, if it's something that's, like, saturating their typical worship experience, like with the

deliverance ministries, you can understand that.

But if you want to comment on that, Dr. Bennett?

Sure, and I'll go back to the quote I used earlier.

That's one amongst many aspects.

If it was right, it was me.

Okay.

This becomes your primary theology, or it becomes that which you're—.

Hold off on it.

You can ask me some questions.

And an exorcism combined more than it is.

And

there

he

is.

What we call the

exorcist.

Thank you for sharing that.

And, Buzz, if you have a question, you could ask him when we come back from the break, because we've got to go to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at

gmail dot com.

Chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

And we do already have still quite a number of people anxiously and patiently— I guess that's a contradiction in

terms— patiently waiting to have their questions—.

We hope patiently, anyway.

Well, nobody's calling me up and yelling at me or anything, so.

They're patiently waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

We will get to you, God willing, one by one before the two hours is

up.

And if we don't, we'll have to have our guest Dr. Bennett back to discuss this subject

again.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, we have already had, for one hour, a fascinating

conversation today with Dr. Robert Bennett, who is the author of two

books that are our topics today.

One is, I Am Not Afraid, and the one is Afraid.

And this is all about the demon realm, demonic possession, and it

has truly been a fascinating subject, and we are going to continue that for the next hour to come.

We would probably never run out of steam, even if we did this for eight, ten hours more, but

we are allotted two hours today, so that's what we're going to deal with.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr. Bennett, our email

address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Before I go to another listener question, Reverend Buzz, did you have a question?

Well, actually, I do want to spend more time yielding to the listener questions, if there's that many waiting out there, because I want to

make sure their questions are answered, but I just wanted to specify a little bit more about what I was

referring to when I said spooky.

I think we have a tendency, because maybe it's the unfamiliarity with these things, that we tend to

be freaked out by it, and you know, I remember, I like what you said, Dr.

Bennett, about, you know, there can be oppression without not necessarily possession, because, you know,

I've even, like, we lost a child years ago, and back in, this is back in actually 1987,

and there were some weird things happening around our house at that time, and weird things like, you

know, a faucet coming on when nobody was in the bathroom, and kind of stuff, and I like the way my wife

dealt with that.

She just kind of looked at it like, is that it?

And she went and turned it off, you know.

It's not something that we have to be scared of, because in Christ we have authority.

Now, of course, Buzz leaves the.

Water running every time he uses the bathroom here in the studio.

Now, Chris is going to be.

Telling all these secrets now, but anyway, could you explain a little bit about, well, first of all, I'd like to hear a little bit more about

our authority as believers.

I understand what you said at the beginning, that it's really Christ who's doing the exorcism, but yet,

as his ambassadors, as his spokesmen in this world, he does use us.

So, as we submit to his authority, we do exercise some degree of authority here

on earth, and I would also like to hear a little bit more about some of the biblical texts dealing with

this subject, because I'm sure they're of concern to a.

Number of listeners also.

Sure.

As far as the spookiness goes, and sometimes these things are pretty spooky, maybe the water being left

on the hill for us, but some people, the

second book has

a

number

of problems,

that the

devil

is very

authority,

and a little bit, rather than an

authority, recognizing who we are,

that

we are

those

who

Christ

has called.

They don't need to fear these things, because they are in Jesus.

And so they can go to the devil, and one of my favorite Luther quotes of all time, dealing with

this particular thing, at the

point of death, so look what you've done to the church, your

district church, you're a sinner, look at all

these horrible sins

that

you've done,

and should be baptized,

and I think

that's who I am, or as

a result of that, anything you have...

Yeah, I want to pick up after I read a listener.

Question about the spookiness aspect as well, but we have a listener who actually was a

guest of mine perhaps eight months ago, I'm not sure exactly how long ago

it was, but by the way, folks, for those of you who don't know, Iron Sharpens Iron is now, this month,

celebrating its first anniversary on the air, as far as our relaunching from Carlisle,

Pennsylvania, we started in 2006, but as far as here in Pennsylvania, June

of 2015 was the relaunch date after a four -year

absence from the airwaves when we left New York, so just wanted to let you folks know that, and

we thank God that you are out there listening and helping us celebrate this first year anniversary just

by letting us know that you love the program and that you're submitting questions regularly, and we thank God for

that.

But as I was saying, this listener was a former guest, her name is Jennifer Nizza

Holfacker, and I'm sure she doesn't mind me saying her full name because she was a guest

and identified herself by name fully, and here is her question.

I was a psychic medium and have accepted Jesus as Lord of my life and

follow God in every way.

Why do the entities that once bothered me on a regular basis still

try to scare me from time to time?

That's a pretty frightening and spooky question there, Dr. Bennett.

I think it's actually a pretty common.

Question, and one

of the main points

is that when

those

things

return to

us are

simply to fall back once again and use words like, I

begone in the name of Jesus, you have no authority to be here, I am a child of God,

you have no say, go bother somebody else.

And this is actually quite helpful for many people who have these reoccurring things that sometimes only show up

every few years.

The devil's always seeking to regain us, we

just need to deal with him without fear and recognizing who we are and what that

means.

And many, many years in the future,

if you understand that point, then I

make a strong point.

Now, returning to the spooky aspect, isn't it, obviously we don't want this

to be so frightening and spooky a subject that we ignore it, but shouldn't it

maintain in our minds a spookiness to keep us from dabbling in it, even in a playful

way, the whole occultic realm, the whole concept of Ouija boards and

seances that some professing Christians might be involved in.

As entertainment, not taking it seriously?

Oh, absolutely, we shouldn't be involved in it at

all, but we don't want to

understand it as, we don't want to

be fear -involved and there's

nothing more to do

with it.

Before I forget, before

I move on to a listener question again,.

I wanted to ask you, the story of Luther throwing the inkwell,

the bottle of ink at Satan, is this folklore?

Is it apocryphal?

And if he did do that, what do you think was actually occurring.

There?

Well, of course, if he did

or didn't,

there's a number of

accomplishments about ridicule.

Whenever Luther is talking about

ridiculing the dog,

not that ink, he was transforming,

so you can almost kind of, and I'm just talking here, but we'll leave

this thing.

Okay, here, take this, take some of this ink that I'm using to write the word of

God in that's going to.

Destroy your kingdom here in Germany.

Yeah, amen.

And we do have David in Ada, Ohio, or Ada, Ohio, I don't know how to pronounce it, it's A

-D -A, but David says, I remember a passage

in 2 Chronicles, chapter 18, 19 through 22, the Lord asked, who will

deceive King Ahab of Israel so that he will attack and be killed at

Ramoth in Gilead?

Some answered one way, while others were saying something else.

Then the spirit stepped forward, stood in front of the Lord, and said, I will deceive him.

How, the Lord asked.

The spirit answered, I will go out and be a spirit that tells lies through the mouths of

all of Ahab's prophets, the Lord said.

You will succeed in deceiving him, go and do it.

So the Lord has put into the mouths of these prophets of yours a

spirit that makes them tell lies.

The Lord has spoken evil about you.

How do we know the difference, or is there a difference, because God is in control of all,

between demon possession of, and or, just a lying pastor, i .e.

the word of faith teachers and preachers?

Yeah, that's one of those

very difficult,

um, it's, well,

I'm not talking about the answers.

At the same time, Luther is,

uh, truly God, not from his, uh,

the word you use here,

his sovereignty.

This is why I look at the

devil

as,

uh, why is

the Lord not

taking it any way, but nevertheless,

the devil, thieves

are dealt with by other

thieves, equating God

with this

evil that we see, uh,

that, uh,

evil by some.

We have Jeff

in Clinton Township, Michigan,.

And I can tell you that half of Jeff's town, Clinton, is evil, but anyway,

Jeff from Clinton Township, Michigan.

My apologies to everybody in Clinton Township,.

Michigan.

I'm from Michigan, so my apologies, too.

Let's see, how does one in church leadership determine whether a professing believer

is,.

We already went through the mentally ill aspect, Jeff, so the last two that he

mentions are demonically oppressed versus demonically

possessed, and if determined to be possessed by a demon,.

What

steps

are taken

by the leadership?

Yeah, I try

to be

clear of how, uh,

pastors.

Well, I'm on Monday through Friday, two hours a day, so you got plenty of opportunities to come.

But, um,

but

just to

the point, uh,

stop to deal

with these conditions, so it's not just what to

deal with, or maybe

waiting for them

on time.

Many of

the

times the

problem is,

but even for too much at that

point, rather than being focused.

And I'll let Jeff ask one more question here.

He says, is there one common occurrence that has manifested in all demon

-possessed people?

Um, if there is, I don't think I could put a...

Maybe you wouldn't want to put your finger on it.

Yeah, that's true, too.

Um, again, I think that we need to be more aware of the spiritual realities

that,

again,

flesh

and eyes,

once again, that which we, 50 to 100 years,

not all the time.

You know, I want to also announce to our listeners that, uh, our guest, Dr. Robert Bennett,

revealed in the course of this interview that he is a prophet, because unbeknownst to him,

my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, just yesterday stubbed his toe,

and very seriously stubbed his toe, to the point where he's got to go to a doctor.

Well, I don't think it's that bad today, but...

Buzz, it's just a symptom that you're going to die someday.

Well, I love that I have another opportunity to point out it's because of his sin.

Yeah, that was the big shock to me, was that...

Oh, hold on now.

Original sin, not actual sin.

Yeah, the sin was I wasn't looking where I was going.

And, uh, let's see, we have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York.

Do you think that false teachers in the charismatic and word -of -faith movements are

responsible for some of these demonic manifestations?

You know, that's a very interesting question, because let me ask you something in regard to that very

question.

Years ago, I got a call from a general manager of the Christian station I

worked at in the 90s, and he said, Chris,

Rodney Howard Brown is coming to Long Island to preach

at a church that's near where you live, and they want to spend a lot of money

on advertising on this station.

I want to go see him with my own eyes and hear him with my own ears, because I want to

separate the rumor from fact.

So he said, well, you come with me.

And I went to this Pentecostal church or charismatic church.

There's probably a better way to define it, because I don't think it's in a mainline Pentecostal denomination.

And Rodney Howard Brown did something very interesting.

He kept telling people that they...

And he was speaking to a room filled with probably a thousand people, not

knowing, obviously, whether or not every person in that room was a Christian.

He couldn't have known that, obviously.

And he is speaking to everybody.

He's just saying, stop being afraid of demons.

And interestingly, as a charismatic, he was making fun of other

charismatics being demon -phobic.

And he said, I was preaching at a church one day, and the elders gathered

around me before I went out to the pulpit to preach, and they were praying the demons out of the church

building.

And I said, what are you doing that for?

I just walk into the room and the demons scatter.

I don't need any prayer for demons to leave any place.

And he was putting everybody or attempting to put everybody at ease

before this bizarre manifestation of laughter started to erupt in

him.

And the band and the church and all these people in the audience.

And to me, it was like he was either consciously or unconsciously

being used of Satan to put people at ease to open themselves up to

demonic activity.

Because obviously, in a place that large, which also has a really

false and heretical gospel being taught there, there's going to be many non -believers,

unregenerate people in that room.

Am I off base thinking that, or what are your thoughts on that?

David Morgan.

No, I think you're right on.

Theology, false theology

is always of the...

It takes before them or it leads them

in many ways that you're

not even...

It really is the only action

that he has this

power

for

that

member...

David Morgan Matter.

David Morgan.

Matter, sorry.

David Morgan Sure, easy for you to say.

David Morgan.

Yeah, I had a half a cough going there.

So, anybody who puts himself in that position is already against Christ, already

has the pure faith that can be counted

on because it's been revealed by our Lord.

And so any false theology, anything that's going to mislead is always going to be satanic in

nature.

While it may not be the aim of the person with the theology, maybe they're just wrong in their theology.

So I'm

assuming your answer then to Tyler is yes,.

You do think that false teachers and the charismatic and word of faith movements are responsible for some of these

demonic manifestations.

And obviously, I don't believe Tyler was trying to broad brush with all charismatics because some of my

dearest friends are charismatic and they've been on this program.

And some of them even share my Reformed theological background.

David Morgan.

Yeah, I know some as well.

And I think he did that by putting that some in there.

And that's why I want to kind of take it out in a little broader stream.

Any teaching false theology, whether they're the most conservative

church or whatever variety of church you might find them in, false theology robs people of

faith, it robs them of the gospel.

Chris.

All right, we have to go to our final break.

And this is your last opportunity to send us an email if you'd like to ask a question of our guest, Dr. Robert Bennett.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with our discussion on demon possession.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzin and if you've been listening or you just tuned us in, actually we have been interviewing for the

last 90 minutes our guest Dr. Robert Bennett and we've been talking about the demonic realm.

He has two books on this subject right now with a third to be expected in a year or so.

The first is I Am Not Afraid, Demon Possession and Spiritual Warfare.

The second is Afraid, Demon Possession and Spiritual Warfare in America.

If you'd like to join us on the air, we've got about 25 minutes left to the program so you can

email us at chrisarnzin at gmail .com, chrisarnzin at gmail .com.

And by the way, everybody up till now who has written with a question is receiving a free

copy of one of those two books.

And if we run out of those copies today, we will send you a New American Standard Bible

compliments of the publishers of the NASB who sponsor this program.

We do have Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania who wants

to know, is it true that some demoniacs or people who have been possessed

by demons have supernatural strength?

And if so, is this proof that there is something supernatural going on

when a young, slightly built woman, for instance, has the strength of 10 men and is tossing

adults around a room?

Does this really occur?

And what's your explanation?

I've not seen it personally, but I've talked to many people who have.

I think that would be one of the

obvious to

do

10 men around the stuff and that would fit with the traditional

understanding of possession.

Yeah, that would be beyond adrenaline if you're having a very tiny girl doing that, I

would assume.

Right.

And that leads me to a couple of other questions of my own in that regard.

Is it just Hollywood or do we have people who are demon possessed speaking

languages that they had never known before, never were taught, and so on?

I'm assuming that if these are real entities inhabiting a person, that that would be quite

a logical thing that could happen.

Yeah, once again, I've not seen that particular,

however, once

again, I've

heard of this

many.

And one of the things that I thought of asking you while Buzz was bringing up the

faucets being turned on and so on, this would not be involving demoniacs or demon possessed people,

but demons.

Can demons move physical objects?

Can they, as in The Exorcist, move a bed up and down?

And the demons that were roaming around Buzz's house, were they turning on faucets?

Can they do.

That?

They actually can.

So the reports that we sometimes hear, I'm from Amityville, Long Island, by the way,

just like Reverend David Anglin of St. Paul's Lutheran Church, who had the question

earlier, where the infamous Amityville Horror House is.

The family that was murdered there included a very close friend of mine

from the earlier grades of grammar school, Mark DeFeo, his oldest brother murdered his

parents and all of his siblings in that house.

And then you had George Lutz and his wife moved in and wrote

the bestselling book, The Amityville Horror, that became probably, I don't know, 25 movies by now.

I don't know how many Amityville Horror sequels.

And I remember dismissing it initially as just a hoax because

people have lived in that house ever since the Lutzes moved out without any consequence.

But when I was watching a documentary not long ago with the

stepson of George Lutz, who claims that he always hated

his stepfather, who's now deceased.

He never liked him and he stayed in the

shadows all of these years, would never agree to an interview until very recently.

He said that his stepfather was involved in the occult.

And so what you just said about objects moving and so on, I

guess what you're saying is there's a possibility that it wasn't because of the house being

possessed in any way, but Mr. Lutz and his involvement with the occult could have had

weird things happening and objects moving around, I'm assuming.

Yeah, the topic of haunted houses is somewhat difficult to me.

Why would a demon hang out in a house?

I think it's

more occult and

it led them

down a

tunnel

where the

devil was able to kind of take off on this point and lead them down the road.

I don't believe in ghosts.

That's one thing I haven't stated here clearly.

Imagination or they're demonic.

But I don't believe in ghosts or at that point.

However, there are houses.

Are you using the word ghost strictly in reference to the specter of the departed?

Right.

One has died and now is continuing to function here on this earth.

Right.

Okay.

And I know a demon who inhabits my house for about two hours every day.

Reverend Buzz Taylor.

But anyway, here we go again.

Well, actually, we do have another listener here.

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

He asks, could you even attribute some of these Marian

apparitions that some superstitious Roman Catholics clamor after

as being a demonic manifestation?

Even many traditionalist Roman Catholics condemn the apparition at Majagoria

while affirming in their minds Fatima to be real.

Do you have any opinion on this?

Yeah, well, I would think that that could easily be a demonic manifestation.

But what's your thoughts on that?

No, I'm in line with you there.

I would

agree

on the topic of the cult

of the saints and

kind of the

history of

leading to

another.

Yeah, great, great, great.

What about people?

And of course, I realize the area of deception.

And as you said, also, they may be deceived themselves or imagination.

But you also hear stories about, you know, well, Jesus, you know, comes to me every morning while I'm shaving and, you

know, talks to me about the events of the day and things like that.

What about those kinds of things?

Well, I think once again, we have to be very cautious there.

We know that our Lord has revealed for us.

Amen.

And whenever we're looking for extra

beat and Middle

East,

you have

stories of

the Lord is the

Lord of all of creation.

But didn't the Apostle Paul said that Christ appeared to him last of all?

I mean, wouldn't that kind of settle the issue that he's not appearing on an ongoing basis to

people?

Oh, sure.

You know, there's a couple ways to take that.

Last of all, he's returning.

I know that.

Right.

Absolutely.

But I'm saying is we have to be cautious with this.

And I would not this

life.

I think more

of this

dream.

You know, we definitely have to have you back on to discuss this because we're running out of time.

I'm going to let I'm going to read just one more question that actually two

different people asked in slightly different ways.

But Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, and Tyler again in Mastic Beach, Long Island,

in reference to the deliverance ministries, charismatic and Pentecostal groups that have

exorcisms, some of them every time they meet, even with people that are

apparently members in good standing of the church.

Um, have you ever heard of a saying that there is a spirit of

anger and fear?

And you could go on and on with every different mood or sin

that people will blame a specific demon for each and everything that they

may have.

That is a sinful attribute.

Yeah, you know,

that's one of the

reasons the problems of

the world, most specifically our own flesh.

I mean, even if even if the devil's not

there, we could

do the most horrible that a

devil would would focus on water.

I think that's very different.

A devil, a

spirit

or

exacerbate.

Well, yeah, a friend of mine once referred to he believes there's a demon of smoking.

And I thought, I wonder what that demon did all those thousands of years before smoking was.

Invented, making sausages.

Well, I want you, since we only have six minutes left, I want you to unburden your heart

to leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before they leave the program today.

And I certainly want you to come back as soon as you can to continue this discussion, as well as other

discussions that we had scheduled you for already in the future.

Oh, sure.

And

move

the devil

with

us.

Amen.

And I want to make sure I give your website out before we run out of time.

It's drrobertbennettphd .com.

That's D -R -R -O -B -E -N -N -E -T.

And there's two T's at the end of Bennett.

P -H -D, P as in Peter, H as in Harry, D as in David .com.

And we also want to thank so much our friends at Concordia House Publishing

for providing these books, or Concordia Publishing House.

Did I mess it up again?

I think I did.

Concordia Publishing House.

And their website is C -P -H dot O -R -G, C -P

-H dot O -R -G for Concordia Publishing House.

That's why it's important to say it in the right order.

C -P -H dot O -R -G.

I want to also thank our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service in Carlisle,

Pennsylvania for shipping out all of these books to our winners.

And as I said, each and every one of you that sent in questions today

are getting a free copy of one of these books.

And Pastor David Anglin in Amityville, Long Island emailed me wanting to make sure he is

getting one.

Yes, you are, brother.

You'll be getting one of these books.

And I will, in fact, I think our guest even said that I could pass on his contact information

to Pastor Anglin, correct?

That's correct.

Right.

One additional thing, the short

way in.

Oh, yeah, that's a lot easier to remember.

Afraidbook .com.

Afraid.

Both books are also available on Amazon.

Great.

Well, since we do have three minutes left, we

have a question from B .B. in Cumberland County,

Pennsylvania.

B .B.

Wants to know, do you believe that any truly regenerate born -again believer can be demon

possessed?

That's not a three -minute question.

Well, the answer will be.

Well, a Calvinist would say that they could not be possessed.

They could be oppressed.

I think there's a good biblical, exegetical argument to be made for that point.

However, what does that

say, like who we find?

I know in the history, at least what

he understands.

Yes, but obviously, I think you would agree.

It's much more important that a person becomes a Christian now,

regardless of what they thought they were in the past.

Absolutely.

There's the only safety is in Jesus.

Amen.

And salvation is not just a past experience.

It's a present reality.

Absolutely.

And an eternal one at that.

And we have another quick question from Bob in White

Plains, New York, who wants to know if Luther thought he was demon possessed during those initial

years before starting the Reformation because he was tormented so much.

No, I have no indication of that whatsoever.

Well, once again, I just want to thank you so much for being a guest.

This was a joy.

This was fascinating.

It's been two hours already.

Yeah, I can't believe it.

I mean, and we may have come close to either breaking a record or matching it as far as

the number of listeners who have written, because we still have more that we could not get

to, unfortunately, but we will, God willing, the next time we have Dr. Robert Bennett on the

program.

So just remember AfraidBook .com, AfraidBook

.com, and Dr. Robert Bennett with two Ts, PhD

.com, Dr. Robert Bennett with two Ts, PH .com.

Thank you so much.

I want to thank everybody for listening, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your

lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.