Jeremy Tate's Reformed to Rome Journey

Opening Remarks and Upcoming Radio Free Geneva

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white. And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday afternoon a little different time, but hey, it's still Tuesday that's all that matters and I'm watching The big kahuna vice-president out there got Adobe edition running got that started up got that going everything started.

You know, I do and I want to tell you how exciting it is exciting for you and I to be here today. It's a momentous occasion. It's momentous. Do you know why I don't know it's because it's the 7th of June.

That's right. 7th of June and every great theologian out there knows what some what this day marks. It's the 36th anniversary. Because in June 7th 1975, thank God, I'm a country boy by John Denver hit number one on the charts.

I Would turn that off before moving it actually your your your your your microphone still on you you want to turn that off there? That was thank God. I'm a country boy back there. Yeah, I could have queued that up.

That would have been all right, but 36 36 years ago. Wow, that doesn't seem that long ago. Yeah, I just figured since everyone kind of questions about the John Denver songs. They hear occasion. Yes. Well, it was number one.

That's right. That's right. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. I Want to start a very important, you know program today with that kind of information make sure once. Anyway, we are. What the the dulcet tones of Rich Pierre.

Not with us today, even though you heard him doing the countdown. That's because guess what that is recorded. He does not do that live but Barry is sitting in and we will see how it all goes. If I just disappear in the middle of sentence, don't worry about it.

No Skype calls today, but the regular phone number eight seven seven seven five three three four one. I got some things to cover first of all. A big announcement on this Thursday. I've already announced this on Twitter.

I have even contacted the pastor who preached this sermon to let him know we're gonna be doing it. We will have a Radio free Geneva on Thursday at the regular time 4 p .m. Mountain Standard Time 7 p .m. Pacific Daylight Time 4 p .m. Pacific Daylight Time, whatever Radio free Geneva.

Because I was directed. I don't even know who direct this to me. I guess you can just simply send Vimeo links to people but someone sent me a Vimeo link and said be prepared for this one and. So if we've got the audio up, I want to play just a little segment here of Cornerstone Community Church Over toward the Temecula area in Southern, California.

Ron Armstrong is the senior pastor and a couple years ago He preached a sermon. Seven topics in the church and one of them was predestination. It was funny because he kept saying I don't know why you all want me to talk about this but We're gonna go ahead and do it.

And so he preached a sermon and it's not there's anything overly new. But every once in a while you got to go back over all the common objections and you have to deal with the fact that the vast majority of criticisms of Reformed Theology are are very very shallow and this was in a you know, you've got the the drums and stuff in the background and and Pastor Armstrong has a sweater on with his shirt tails out over his jeans and looking really cool there.

And it's just sort of that kind of thing and so I just want to play a little clip here just to give you a little taste of.

Sovereignty of God, Human Evil, and the Purpose of Suffering

What he has to say here. Ugly guys handsome guys does that apply to everybody. The Lord's it says whoever. Those so if I confess my mouth and believe in my heart I have the opportunity for a relationship with God.

And then finally James 113. When tempted let no one say what God is tempting me for. God cannot be tempted by evil. Nor does he tempt anyone? So does God send temptation anybody? Does God push anyone to do evil in other words?

If someone does something really bad, can they say well, you know, God really made me do that. Could they say that the evil they did? Was part of God's plan. How many of you have ever heard that God has a plan for everything.

I've never heard that before. So If I do evil Isn't that evil from God then? Whoa problem. Because let's go back and read the verse one more time. Whoa problem.

Now if you're expecting that pastor Armstrong is going to exegete Genesis 50 or acts for or you know any Isaiah 10 any of the texts specifically talk about God and His sovereignty over man's evil and and his sovereign decree.

No, of course, none of that's there that's one of the reasons we're gonna be addressing it is is how to do is a Jesus and how to Twist the Bible's message by just just ignoring major sections of it. The Q &A at the end was interesting because someone did bring up Romans 9 if you want to hear one of the most surface-level responses Romans 9 and the fact that Romans 9 actually says That God does what he does in response to what we do.

Which is of course the exact Opposite of what Romans 9 says with great clarity force and repetition. Well, anyways, we're gonna work through that it's gonna take us more than one one shot, but It needs to be done every once in a while just to remind us of what's out there what people are being told.

I feel for the young people in this audience because it seemed to be the young people to be honest with you. It seemed like they were being talked down to a lot. But it seemed to be the young people and boy they were really given a bill of goods on this one.

So we're gonna be responding to that. I've already dropped to pastor on a note I will need to be careful and I will need to be straightforward because at one point pastor Ron raises is as an objection to God's sovereignty the fact that his own son was murdered a few years ago and Katie Bowen Channel Linked me to the story of that and it's it's an interesting story, especially because When he was killed someone else was injured and someone else was Hugh Ross's son.

December 26 2008 The three men allegedly killed Joshua Armstrong 22 and tried to kill his friend Joel Ross in an alley behind ET's bar in Temecula. Armstrong was a son of Ron Armstrong the senior pastor at Cornerstone Community Church in Wildomar Ross who was injured in incidents the son of Hugh Ross a creationist author and public speaker.

I had no knowledge of any of this. And so I listened this morning on my ride to this sermon and Some might say well, you just shouldn't address what this guy has to say. I'll be perfectly honest with you that that makes it all the better to address because it raises the vitally important issue of whether Evil in this world has a purpose or whether it is purposeless when God created.

Did he know all the the acts of evil or are they just random when he created did he know they're gonna happen and If he did did he have a purpose for them or are they purposeless? That is a huge question it's fundamental to how you do grief counseling and everything else and I refuse to skip it.

I refuse to dodge it. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be addressed biblically and I think that's that's that's the important way to do it. So we will have a radio free Geneva coming up on Thursday.

I Want to comment at the beginning of the program today on an article that was posted just today by Jeremy Tate. Jeremy Tate graduated three days ago June 4th 2011 from Reformed Theological Seminary in DC and He did so as a Roman Catholic.

This is on the called to communion website, which is a website of formally reformed people Who have embraced the authority of the Bishop of Rome and apostatized from the Christian faith. I Want to comment on what he has to say because a lot of people ask me about these issues and and about how it can be that a person can claim to have been passionate about Reformed theology and then embrace Romanism and I I think it's something that you know, I I have an insight in these people.

I've debated many of them not ones on called to communion. This is a new group, but Most of the people that I was debating back in the 90s people like Jerry Matitix converted while he was at Westminster in Philadelphia in the doctoral program there and I spoke with dr. John Gerstner before his death about Jerry Matitix and Scott Hahn and people like that and Robertson Janice claimed to have at least been involved with a reformed church.

Of course Robertson Janice was involved with a lot of different churches including I don't think he puts this on his resume. Harold camping at some point in the past as well and. So a lot of these people will make these claims.

And so I think it's it's important to consider How it how it can be? Let's take a look at what he has to say here. The fall of 2008 when I finally resolved to convert to the Catholic Church from the Presbyterian Church in America.

So he's PCA same as Jerry Matitix. I faced a tough question whether I would stay at RTS and finish my degree at first. I didn't even know if I would be allowed to stay. I Had already heard horror stories of Catholic converts at Protestant institutions being pushed out after the decision to convert.

Well, I would say that if the institution has a rule that you need to be a follower of Jesus Christ and believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. That would be perfectly appropriate. And and absolutely necessary and if you were actually a meaningful can convinced Calvinist at one point.

How could you argue with that? After realizing I could stay I had to ask the difficult question whether I should. After consulting with numerous people. I respect both Catholic and reformed. I'm if you don't mind I do not Grant to the Roman Communion the term universal.

It is the exact opposite of universal. Because it demands allegiance to one man. Totally outside of the of biblical parameters and so I will be reading Catholic as Roman Catholic or Roman. Both Roman and reformed.

I made the decision to continue at RTS. I withdrew from the MDiv program and finished out RTS in DC with a Master of Arts and Religious Studies. I graduated on June 4th of 2011. I can say with all honesty at the Faculty of RTS in DC treated me with more kindness than I possibly could have imagined.

It never made me feel unwelcome at the seminary were willing to engage Roman Catholic questions whenever I would ask. Nonetheless the situation made for some awkward experiences. I sat in class and talked with students.

I'll never forget the reaction some of my classmates when they asked me what church I was at. I think the most common response is a look of disbelief and then a simple seriously. That certainly would have been a mild part of my response.

My response would have been Something along the lines of well, what could possibly convince you to abandon? The gospel of Jesus Christ for that which is promoted by the Roman Catholic Church. Do you really believe that your priest is an altar Christus?

Do you really believe that the the the the bishop in Rome? Is the vicar of Christ Holy Father terms only used of deity in the New Testament. Do you really believe in purgatory and indulgences and and do you really believe that Christ?

Sacrifices represented upon an altar over and over again and never perfects anyone. And do you really believe that Mary was immaculately conceived and and Bodily assumed into heaven and all these other dogmas.

Those would be the things I'd be asking about. I I don't know if those were the questions that were being asked at that time. Going back to the article the summer of 2009 I had the chance to take a three-day incensive class ministry in a postmodern context with Michael Horton a couple of times.

He made jokes about the Catholic Church and the reason people convert. At one point maybe only in a half-joking manner Horton suggests that people convert because the papacy offers a senior pastor. That many Protestant congregations are failing to offer.

Horton makes a similar comment in his book God of promise. This mindset suggests that people become Catholic primarily because their Existential experience in Protestantism is unsatisfying. Well, if I could comment That is always a part of it.

But I think it's much more In and I I know a lot of Catholic converts this is this is this is something where I think I can claim a little bit of expertise been at this a few years and There are a lot of reasons why?

People convert to Roman Catholicism. Dissatisfaction with where they are is. You know, obviously if if you're not focused upon the gospel if you do not find your deepest satisfaction and the contemplation of the finished work of Christ the the glory of the atonement Union with Christ justification by grace through faith alone the sufficiency of Scripture if all those things are merely Words to you and they are not that which provides you with daily joy and foundation for life then Yeah, then you're gonna be focused on what people do or do not do for you and whether you're quote-unquote experience of of You know Experience of worship or music or you know, you get focused on all this other stuff when you're not focused upon what is really central and then it's really easy to start looking for the the other church at that point.

And the Allegation of the continuity since the Apostles the ancient church standing the mists of time Is very very attractive to people at that particular point in time. As I sat in the class though I realized that Horton was mistaken all the Catholics I knew Who had converted from Calvinism had embraced the Catholic Church through a thoughtful and scripturally informed theological journey.

Well, that is not my experience. That is that you know, and I'm sorry scripturally informed. When I listen to the argumentation, especially in regards to the subject of Mary and the constant droning attacks on the soul scriptura I'm sure that that's what they they want to think that is but it's anything but.

During breaks, which we frequently had during the intensive classes I had the chance to have lunch with groups of RTS students and I was always surprised to discover how many Had been at least baptized in the Catholic Church this reality reinforced the perception always Almost always present reformed circles that when Catholics have a true conversion to Christ, they leave the Catholic Church well, yeah that that is the perception because it's a gospel thing and if if Jeremy Tate's understanding of reformed theology Was such that the gospel is not definitive the gospel does not define what it means to be reformed.

Well, then I'm okay, I suppose there are people who call themselves reformed that are not overly focused upon the gospel these days, but Yeah, that that is that is perception in truth. However, these students Had never really entered into the fullness of the Catholic Church.

They were never catechized. They were never taken to mass regularly. They were never taught the unbroken history of the church back to the Apostles themselves, or maybe they actually know that's a completely bogus claim.

Maybe they actually know enough about church history to know there is no unbroken line and to even claim otherwise is to so horrifically twist church history. As to boggle the mind, maybe they know about the Avignon papacy.

Maybe they know about the pornocracy. Maybe maybe they know something about the papacy and its teachings and its evolution. Maybe they know something about about the patristic writings and and the growth of papal primacy in the West over time and all the rest that stuff.

Maybe they're fully aware of that stuff. You never never know. Since they now lived in the reformed world. They were likely only to meet other people of similar stories who had likewise left the Catholic Church.

Well, there's some truth to that statement. If you know, I I really think that it should be reformed people, especially. Who are the most actively involved in bringing the gospel of grace to Roman Catholics?

And if they're not then I I really wonder why not. Where would they come in contact with people who had gone in the other direction? Who have been baptized and reformed church became Roman Catholic for theological reasons.

I found that these interactions simply didn't happen. Well, actually they do and I've been involved with them for a long long time. You can just ignore that they happen. But they do happen and have been happening for quite a while.

Even from a sociological standpoint. I was fascinated by the mindset of these two groups. From their own experiences the reform believed that Roman Catholics who truly found Christ became Protestant. Now listen to this while the Roman Catholics believed that any Protestant who truly wanted pure and undistorted Christianity became Catholic.

Then notice the difference for the for the Protestant. It's an issue of Salvation in the gospel for the Roman Catholic. It's ecclesiology, it's submission to the Bishop of Rome. Both groups Catholics and Calvinism and Calvinists from Catholicism were either unaware of or maybe just ignored the existence of the other group.

Well, that certainly isn't my experience. However, I did notice a profound difference between these two groups and the stories they shared of their conversions. Those who had left Catholicism for Calvinism.

Never loved Catholicism to begin with. On the other hand the Calvinists who had gone Roman Catholic had previously been the most zealous of Calvinists. They were believers who knew and loved the reformed tradition had essentially followed it until the road came to an unexpected end.

This does seem to be a part and parcel of the conversion story. You know started by Scott Hahn and Jerry Matitix and Steve Wood and all these guys. We were the firebrands. I you know, I'll never forget I've got to find this.

I you know I think it's I gotta check the website. It may have fallen into that gap in 2004 or something. But I got to find this thing or find some volunteers willing to go through all my dusty copies of this rock magazine.

But I want to find and scan again The whole page ad from this rock magazine where Jerry Matitix is standing in a Catholic Church. He's got his suit on and and all this stuff and he's a young guy and and it's it the big title above it is I'm the one who led your loved ones out of the Catholic Church and You know, Jerry Matitix used to be the big Catholic answers guy.

They don't want they don't really talk about. Trying to sort of suppress that but he was he was real real up there at the top and He was their their darling apologist for quite some time and You know, I'll never forget the conversation I had with Jerry.

I remember we were over at the on our old Camelback location. Where you know, I know Barry you spent the evening there one. Waiting for young Mormons to throw rocks to the windows again. I remember that one but and surprising people that just sort of showed up in the middle of night, but anyhow I Remember what my office looked like and oh if you remember that place that the carpet was horrific.

You know, it's all bunched up in places and oh, it was we've been in some really lousy digs over the years. But you know, we're always we're always poor and that's just the way it is. I think that carpet brought a nice price down in Mexico City.

Ripped it out. I think so. It's terrible. No offense in Mexico City. Sorry folks. Anyway, that was Barry not me. And so I'm in this. I had these metal shelves and and You know the stuff you get it at Home Depot or something like that.

And that was all my where my books were and so and I'm sitting there on the phone with Jerry matic's. And so I just started started asking questions because he made some comment about. I know where you're coming from James I know really really Jerry.

What what books did you write on Roman Catholicism when you were a Presbyterian minister? Well, James, I didn't write any books. How about some tracks? No, I did articles. You have some articles published.

Maybe some tapes of some conferences you did where you spoke on this subject. Well, then did you debate anybody? Well, no. Well, Jerry, why do you make yourself out to be this quote-unquote? Anti-catholic this guy who is this big anti-catholic when the reality is.

You were just a Protestant, you know, I mean you you were opposed to Roman Catholicism, duh. But you were just a Protestant. You weren't you don't weren't doing what I'm doing. You you didn't put yourself out there like that, you know.

But that's that's how they wanted we were zealous for the reformed tradition and we were all the rest of stuff. Let me let me say something to You know to to Jeremy Tate and and to the rest of these these folks here.

You are not zealous and You are not really even truly reformed if Your entire self-identity is not wrapped up In a recognition of the sovereignty of God and the glory of his grace. I mean you can go to a Reformed church and you can memorize Westminster Confession of Faith or the London Baptist Confession of Faith.

You can do whatever you want to do. You can you can have all the all the credentials you want. But I know what it means to walk through the deep and difficult times of life and you find at the bedrock that you stand upon when Everything else is given way your absolute conviction that God is sovereign over human events and what I'm going through is a part of his purpose for my life and it is part of his Work of his spirit in my life to conform me the image of Christ and you can't just turn away and turn around and throw That out and say well, I was a really good Calvinist.

I was really reformed. He's can't do that and so, you know, you can you can talk about you know, how zealous you were or you know New and love the reformed tradition all the rest. I said, that's really what caught my attention here.

Because the end of this thing when you get to it in a moment and then we're gonna take our calls. We've got two calls online. We'll get to you. But don't talk to me about your externals. You can have all the credentials you want and.

And You know, sometimes I have to remind My reformed brethren of this too. You know and everybody wants to look at me and tell well You're not reformed because you don't believe this that or the other thing and there are people, you know at certain seminaries that well.

You know, he's not reformed because he's a you know, there's no such thing as reformed Baptist all the rest of stuff. Let me tell you something. Let me say something to my reformed brethren there is a heart and soul To what it means to believe in the God of the Bible unedited and undiminished on the basis of modernistic assumptions.

There is a heart and soul to that. That transcends any document written in the 16th 17th and 18th centuries and if you don't see that then you are not lifting your eyes up high enough. There are a lot of people today going to quote-unquote reformed churches that do not have nearly a high enough view of Scripture to remain reformed or nearly a high enough view of the gospel to remain reformed and That's why you see formerly reformed denominations going into apostasy.

There is a core there is a heart of accepting God for who he is. That Transcends anything else and if you don't see that then I'm sorry, you're blind. You're just not looking you're blinded by your own traditions.

I'm talking to reformed people right now and it binds us together despite differences we might have in other areas. And I'm not saying those other areas aren't important. I've debated them enough times to demonstrate.

I do think they're important, but you see when I debate my Pato Baptist brethren. They are my brethren and what unites us is that commitment to the absolute freedom of God to accomplish his own Self-glorification in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and if you can't see it, that's enough to be a basis of unity.

Well, I feel for you. But I'm not gonna stop proclaiming the fact that that's our foundation and you know what? I think a lot of people hear me when I say it. And I think when people say well, he's not really reformed I think they look they end up looking a little small at that point so anyway, that That sermon was free.

Reformed Theology, Scripture, and the Authority of God’s Word

I Have frequently been asked whether or not the professors that I'm going back to the the article now in case you're wondering. I have frequently been asked whether or not the professors at RTS accurately articulate the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church when Juxtaposing it with a reformed tradition.

The answer here is complicated. There is no doubt that at times I heard gross misrepresentations of what the Catholic Church teaches. For example in the Michael Horton class, I mentioned earlier a class of probably 50 students in it Dr. Horton condemned the Vatican to position on the possibility of salvation for those who do not profess faith in Christ.

Horton offered a caricature of the Roman Catholic position. Which suggested the Vatican to taught that anybody who lives a good life will be saved. In fact Vatican to taught nothing of the sort though Vatican to affirm the truth that some men will may be saved apart from a conscious knowledge of Christ as Savior a truth affirmed by the WCF as.

Well in the case of infant mortality and mental retardation the council maintained with clarity the salvation comes only through Christ now that I'm sorry. Is a misrepresentation of Romanism on the part of Jeremy Tate?

We all know what Vatican to. First of all, who is Jeremy Tate to interpret Vatican to? He's a graduate of RTS. He's not even a graduate of a Roman Catholic institution. And so are there priests and bishops of the Roman Catholic Church who interpret Vatican to in a Much broader way than Jeremy Tate ever would.

Well, of course and that's the problem. Because Rome won't. Rome can't provide that kind of Final word or at least the modern Roman Catholic Church won't because they're trying to hold together such a massively wide variety of perspectives.

Well, what's more than that we know of Vatican to taught in regards to the Muslims and Said that they together with us adore the one true God. What does a door mean? You can you can actually worship and adore a Unitarian God and that's the same thing as Trinitarian worship really.

And that they are heirs of eternal life. Really now there are all sorts of interpretations of these things by Roman Catholics today. That's why they're most of the arguments against sola scriptura are just so utterly bogus but the fact of the matter is that's he gives one interpretation of Vatican to but it's not the only one.

And How's his authoritative? I mean he can get to choose his favorite, you know folks and his favorite interpreters. But but that's the problem with Roman Catholic Catholic Catholicism. Once the Pope speaks has got to be interpreted once the council speaks has got to be interpreted and That has only led to more confusion not less confusion.

The other distortion of Catholic teaching that I noticed Took an unexpected form as might be expected several classes discussed the crucial differences in the understanding of justification between Roman Catholic Church and the Reformed tradition.

At times the substance of the root facts concerning how the Catholic Roman Catholic Church understands justification were accurately presented. Well, it's not difficult to do at least historically. It's questionable today.

These facts over had been completely removed from the context of God's love in Contrast the professors presented the Reformed view of justification as the most wondrous act of God's love. What would you expect them to do to be fair Catholics tend to do this to the Reformed as well?

I've heard Catholics present the Reformed view as if God still despises us. But has found a loophole to his own justice through the death of Christ. If the dialogue towards unity is to continue the dialogue towards unity.

We must recognize that for both the Roman Catholic and the Reformed the death of Christ on the cross is the supreme act of God's love. For it is here that he merited salvation for us and attained the promised blessings the old covenants for God people for God's people.

It is here at salvation can be by grace alone and not by works. It is here that God's love melts away the hardness in the hearts of his children. It is here that we must focus our eyes if we were to make any progress towards Christian unity.

That's all sounds so wonderful. But what does any of it mean? The cross is supreme act of God's love. Agreed, which is why Rome's view of the cross Due to the mass is such a gross blasphemy to rob the finishness of the work of Christ.

So that some man who calls himself an altar Christus another Christ a father Can buy some sacramental authority unknown to the sacred writings? Bring Christ down from his throne and Render him body soul blood and divinity as a bloodless sacrifice that perfects no one upon an altar.

Oh. What blasphemy. That's why I just don't understand how anyone who has ever understood the finished work of Christ and Gloried in that atonement could ever embrace such a thing and call it Christianity.

It is just amazing to me for it is here that he merited salvation for us. Merited as in a treasury of merit that then the church controls and then can dole out through indulgences. Mr. Tate. You attain the promised blessings the old covenants for God's people.

How about the promised blessing of the new covenant? It is here at salvation can be by grace alone and not by works. Really grace alone. And we've got faith alone. Is here that God's love melts away the hardness and the hearts of his children really?

I thought his children had had their their hearts of stone taken out and been given hearts of flesh. That was the promise of of Ezekiel, wasn't it and Jeremiah. It is here that we must focus our eyes we were to make any progress towards Christian unity.

That's true. And you see Christian unity will be obtained When we proclaim the gospel and those who have embraced a false gospel embrace the gospel of Christ. Subtitle indebted to the Reformed tradition.

I'd expected that as I settled into the Roman Catholic Church I would begin to feel less indebted to the Reformed tradition as I reflect on my experiences at RTS. However, I realize the exact opposite has happened.

If you click on the welcome link on the call to communion home page, you'll find a clue answer the question Who are the members of call to communion there? You'll find this statement. We are grateful for all that we learned about the Christian faith in the Reformed tradition.

We are also grateful for the piety that we found within the Reformed congregations to which we belong and for the love for truth. That is a significant aspect of the Reformed tradition. We do not view ourselves as having left our Reformed faith behind but rather as having found its fullness in the Catholic Church.

Now, let me just say as Again as warm and fuzzy as that sounds that makes as much sense to someone who really is Reformed as someone starting a website for Mormonism called called to LDS communion and Saying I was once a Calvinist, but now I'm a Mormon.

You see I use as an example because you go. Well, wait a minute the Mormons worship a completely different God. They think they can become gods their God lives on a planet the circles a star named Kolob.

All of that's true. These men a call to communion have embraced a Gospel that is the fundamental denial of The heart of what it means to be Reformed it is a fundamental denial of the sovereign freedom of God.

To save his elect people by grace and grace alone. Now that I have graduated from RTS I feel the deeper affinity with these words and ever before I am humbled by the leadership at RTS DC. My professors are among the most scripturally knowledgeable believers I've ever met.

The whole of their lives is clearly informed by the love of God their focus is Christ and live out of a profound Thankfulness for his saving work on the cross even though from Roman Catholic perspective they Utterly deny the central act of Christian worship in the mass.

I would think I Do not wish to estrange myself from them or pick Or pick I fight with them. I think there's a typo there. I Simply want them to discover what I have. I Want them to see that the glorious benefits that we have in Christ benefits Which they articulate so well benefits which they first taught me to relish in are available right here in this life.

They're available in the Roman Catholic Church. They're available in the Eucharist and liturgy to confession absolution and holy water and witnessing baptism in real communion with the saints of old. Mr. Tate.

You don't understand the heart of the gospel. That is the Reformed Gospel because if you can embrace Repetitive confession Indulgences purgatory The repetitive Representation of the alleged one sacrifice of Christ that will never perfect you.

Then you do not understand what those men were teaching that is just all there is to it eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's get to our phone calls and let's talk with John. Hello, John Going well.

I noticed a couple of weeks ago on the dividing line you made a comment about Some guys who had contributed articles to biologos getting fired. Yeah, and I don't want to miss it. Yeah, if I'm wrong if I misinterpreted you just feel free to tell me but I got the impression you were rather pleased with that happening, yes.

Yes, I would. I consider biologos a gross act of compromise. The entire website.

Well, I just wanted to let you know that those of us who are theistic evolutionist. We believe in God as a creator as well. It just we believe he took his time and used natural processes rather than doing it instantaneously.

I know I've been fighting that system for for decades. I I know it very very well. You just have no biblical leg to stand on John. That's all and I think these men if they are going to Contribute to a movement that is that is fundamentally undercutting the authority of scripture and attacking scripture I mean that the articles on biologos have been very very clear.

One fell I guess just left recently. I've forgotten what his name is, but The things that he was saying in regards to the the fundamental authority of scripture It was very very clear undercutting of the authority of scripture.

All the articles I've just read a handful, but I just thought you know that that seems strange to me.

I thought I might ask you about it. Yeah. Well, I know I I I See absolutely positively. I fully understand why people embrace Theistic evolution. It has to do with not recognizing the ultimate authority of the Word of God and wanting to fit in with the modern world and its viewpoints on Cosmology and things like that.