Is Cessationism true or false

You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

Sheep among misfits.

A misfit in the trailer park at night. A misprint with the sixth sense. Been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D. My two cents never made sense. Either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence.

My 9th Smith on my right side. Why you staring at your cop. Dot sign. And my John Hancock on the dotted line. Tell me what's the bottom line. The bottom line is I'm not right. I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight.

There's nothing left but the spotlight. Hold my beer, you can find me in the moonlight.

Moonlight.

You can say what you want. You can say what you want, but you won't around me. You can say what you want You can say what you. I'm within the deep end. And I can't find my assigned seat to sit in. My theology don't fit in.

Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen. To the Reformed, I'm just another Baptist. Baptized again, the bastard child of Anabaptist. Host to child of Reformation society. We don't need your education.

Give me a Bible and a bookshelf of dead men. Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans. Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men. Making Reformation great again. You can say what you want. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

You can say what you want. You can say what you want, but you won't around me. Around me, around me, around me.

Introduction to Open Air Theology and the Hosts

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Open Air Theology Show. My name is Jeff, and I'm one of the pastors of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church out here in Tallahoma, Tennessee. And I'm here with my good friends and co-hosts, Brayden and Haps.

I'm going to pass it over to Brayden to let him introduce himself and he'll pass it to Haps.

Yeah, I'm Pastor Brayden of Valley Baptist Church. I hope you're having a blessed and wonderful night. Just super thankful to be on the podcast here on Open Air Theology.

With Brother Haps and Jeff.

I'm up camping right now, looking for Bigfoot. It is confirmed, I have not seen one, heard one.

Man, stop lying.

Not yet.

Also not doing demon calls out here. Nope, just super thankful to be here smoking my one and only pipe for this trip. So saved it for these guys. Hope you guys feel special right now because you are.

And on that note, I'll pass it to Haps.

I'm a little jealous.

You should be.

Well, it's still daylight. You know, he comes out at night. Hope you know that.

They're nocturnal.

Yeah, nocturnal.

Fair enough.

Are we talking about Bigfoot or the demon worshippers? Both of them.

Same thing, whatever. So I am Haps Addison former pastor of Bottle Branch Ministries one of the hosts of Open Air Theology and Repent and Believe Studios and I'm here in Woodbury, Tennessee and my system is down again so I'm coming live from my cell phone.

What Kind of Music They Make and Haps's Background

Alright, well to answer this one guy's question Josh, he's asking what kind of music is this? That's the kind of music that me and my co-elder make kind of a little mixture between rap and rock. So I've got two out so far, two songs and the next one that we're going to be working on is more.

It's going to be more geared toward hip-hop but not really mainstream hip-hop and it's going to be called Pimps and Prostitutes. It's going to be really good just speaking about how Jesus came for pimps and prostitutes but anyways, let's get off of that subject.

So our hold on didn't know when I was 14. When I was 14 I signed to an underground rap label in Flint, Michigan called Slit Your Wrist Productions and I rapped freestyle rap, I used to go to parties and battle and stuff like that.

I owned up until I was 26. I stopped rapping at 26.

And I just.

Got back into it, man. Just something to kill time.

It is what it is.

Why Cessationism Is the Topic for Tonight

So our conversation for tonight is is sensationism true or false? And we would really like to hear what y 'all guys have to say in the comments.

So.

Feel free to comment. That's not to say that we'll have time to interact with every comment but it's fun reading the comments. Yeah, so let's get into it. Is sensational true? Sensationalism true or false?

What do you guys think? I want to remind you before you answer I want to remind you that there is a a sensationalism documentary dropping at the G3 conference Wednesday and I told you that I didn't think I'd be able to make it to watch it but I'm going to make it.

I'm going to watch it because I've got to find out if they're right or not. If they don't agree with me, we've got problems.

Plus our whole crew is going to be there.

Plus our whole crew is going to be there.

Well I think maybe Jeff you can define for us what is sensationalism and what is continuationism.

Well I've been talking the whole time so let's have Brayden introduce that. I'm trying to share everything with y 'all.

Defining Cessationism, Continuationism, and the Sign Gifts

Yeah, so sensationalism is definitely true. Let me define those things real fast for us. So the conversation gets a little bit more deeper than just sensationalism versus continuationism. There's different flavors and types of sensationalism and different flavors and types of continuationism in there but the main thought of it is that when somebody says they're a sensationalist that the sign gifts, namely that of prophecy and speaking the tongues has ceased whereas continuationists usually would say that they have not ceased.

And so inside those camps there's the extremes on both sides where you would have some very dogmatic, very strict sensationalists that go so far onto, I would say, go fall into the gutter that say that no miracles today exist whatsoever.

And then on the other side of the coin with continuationists you have the Pentecostal, Benny Hinn people falling on the ground. Everybody falls except for the cameraman because the cameraman has to capture the falling on the ground, right?

So there's these two far gaps that are on each side of this road.

Right, and if I can interrupt, the wind blows where it wishes.

Fair enough.

The wind didn't wish to blow on the cameraman.

Apparently they only get non-demon possessed cameramen that's one of the requirements to apply for cameraman these charismatic, charismania churches. So I think what we're gonna be arguing for tonight is typically there's, and I have some really good great brothers in Christ that are continuationists but they usually call themselves skeptical continuationists.

We are very similar in that sense but we do cross the line into the camp of cessationism which we would say that the sign gifts have ceased. However there are occasions where things, God works and people are able to hear these miraculous events that take place.

I hope that's a fair way of explaining it.

I like what Julie also brought to the table she said, or musicians so the people playing the music don't seem to fall out.

Is that like prophetic flag twirling?

Well that's what she used to do. She's probably about to kill me now. Julie from church, Pastor Cal's wife. Pastor Cal, my other elder. So they were involved, well I better be quiet.

Don't kick my butt.

For those of you that don't know when I was originally ordained.

Haps's Pentecostal Background and Turn Toward Reformed Theology

In 2010.

I was ordained in the Pentecostal circles so Assemblies of God, Churches of God so the group that I was associated with was kind of a mixed breed which is why I say both of them. So we were part of an Assemblies of God church.

The church plant we were in was the Assemblies of God 16 fundamentals, stuff like that. It was a mixed ministry with the Churches of God. So the Bible college that I went to was the Assemblies of God and stuff like that.

And because of things that happened in my life I kind of bought into it hook, line, and sinker. So I was actually preaching at a church plant at the time through the Gospel of John which that's what I'm in right now, I'm in chapter 8 so this coming Lord's Day will be my 51st message in the Gospel of John.

So at this time I wasn't going as slow but I had made it to chapter 3 so I was also preaching at this time at a jail.

So I was involved with the jail ministry so I started preaching through Genesis kind of section by section.

And then I was asked to preach at the church plant.

And I was like, I'm going to do what I do at the jail ministry but I'm going to use the New Testament.

So I just started going through the Gospel of John.

I got to chapter 3 that's the 16 fundamentals.

John chapter 3 I didn't agree with and I mentioned that as I was preaching and I said, I'm just going to set the tradition aside and I'm going to give you what the text has to say. And it ended up being that it was the truth, which I didn't know it was the truth at the time.

I didn't know if I was a heretic, I didn't know what to think but that I didn't go and visit my mom and my dad before they got together and hooked up and had me. I didn't go to them in some kind of a vision or a dream and say if y 'all hook up, y 'all have me.

I didn't have any kind of say. So even though I didn't ask to be born, it was something that happened to me and I mentioned that the new birth is not something we ask for but it's something that happens to us.

And that was the last time I preached at that church plant and so again, I didn't know what to believe and I stumbled across the smart phones that just came out. I found John MacArthur on YouTube and I was listening to his sermons and at this time, it was 2013 and the Strange Fire Conference had just dropped and so I'm listening to the Strange Fire Conference and I'm like, whoa, what is this?

And then I'm kind of connecting like in the circles that I was in for a pastor to just stand behind the pulpit and preach, we would say this guy is boring. I need someone walking around the room, stripping off their outfit.

Throwing it at folks.

Walking around holding the Bible but watching Steve Lawson captivate my attention just standing behind the pulpit really did a number on me, it wrecks my world and so I just started diving in but I heard John MacArthur, before the Strange Fire Conference.

I heard John MacArthur preach on the New Birth and I said, that's exactly what I said in the pulpit at that church, but I didn't know I didn't know if I was a heretic or not and I was like, well what does this guy believe and so I found John MacArthur, I found Steve Lawson which connected me to eventually James White and all these other Reformed guys and it really steered my direction in where I was going.

But I'll talk about the miracles later. Sorry I went on a tangent.

No, that's all good, you gotta chase them around every once in a while.

Miracles, Testimony, and the Pull of Charismatic Experience

I actually landed into a free Methodist church where anything goes when I first came to know the Lord and was really drawn because growing up I was so fascinated with the occult and all that stuff, tarot cards, whatever was just fascinated by the casting of runes and stuff like that.

I just had this natural curiosity about these things and so when I started hearing about how I have a testimony and everything was really focused on me I found myself being pulled into these charismatic circles because I had a testimony I had an anointing, I had this or that and what I soon came to find out was it was all about me and Christ is in the passenger seat I'm in dead serious and so I was really just, all the miracles all the everything the gifts of healing, all that type of stuff the prophecy I was just really attracted to until I started seeing damaging effects on people including myself.

I didn't have enough faith it was almost like works I had to perform all these works and this legalistic spirit came over me this legalistic feeling that everybody else isn't on my level because of their lack of faith and their lack of belief in the in the gifts and it wasn't until shortly after that and I mean shortly after, I wasn't into it for years or anything, but for about 2 -3 years it was my whole life having dreams about angels seeing angels and all this kind of stuff but it wasn't until I actually asked the Lord for understanding in the scriptures and that he would send me Godly men that would hold me accountable to what I was saying in the name of God, to the word of God and that's when my whole world just crumbled and it's Christ and Christ alone that does all this.

So real quick, I want to answer Leah, Neil a good friend of mine. So I would say that it's not a salvation issue. I don't think that I became saved when I stopped believing. I don't believe that I became saved when I became reformed.

So as a assemblies of God I believe that I had true faith in Jesus Christ and I was saved. Now some reformed people might disagree with that and I would say that they got problems.

And it is what it is.

But the salvation isn't through believing in the reformed tradition. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone and Christ alone and that is to the glory of God alone. Every one of us have some theological points that we could fix and unlike most people I really want to know where I'm lacking so I can fix these theological points.

And again, I think it was touched on earlier and I'm sure we'll get on it later but I want to ask Brayden a question. So is there any kind of Pentecostalism type that you were exposed to in the Mormon church?

As far as Mormonism goes, no not to the degree that you're thinking like a Pentecostal church.

No one ran around the room?

No one was running around the room. They do believe in the gift of tongues and prophecy of course because they believe that there's modern prophets. So they would be continuationists and apostles. So in Mormonism specifically.

So all these questions that are asked on here just everybody that's watching we do not talk about this beforehand. I was not expecting to go to Mormonism on this stuff. However, within Mormonism they would say that in their view that the true church of Christ was no longer existing after the death of the apostles through Joseph Smith they picked up all that was lost and now they have the restored church and that would include the sign gifts such as speaking in tongues and prophecy and so they would not be as extreme maybe in some ways they're extreme like some prophecies that they said were extreme but not in the very outward demonstration and we all can think of that example of people rolling around on the ground holding snakes in their hands that kind of look they wouldn't have gone to that degree.

Even in the early LDS stuff from my understanding there was none that was that crazy. They would say like the speaking in tongues they would argue is known languages and they would also say that the men that go to the MTC, the missionary training center in Utah they would say that is where these men receive the gift of tongues to be able to go into foreign missions and speak languages at a very quick rapid rate comparative to other individuals in the world.

So that's their justification on what they would be arguing for which I think leads perfectly into my argument of why cessationism is true is that the sign gifts were for the times of the apostles to validate an early message, the greatest revelation of all things which is God dwelling amongst man, dying for us and rising again and so to validate that message apostles were there, scripture was being written and once the apostles died and the perfect, and I'm sure we'll talk about that in a little bit, came those things left along with the apostles as Paul himself would say that he was the last of the apostles the chief cornerstone of the church is Christ and then the next stones, the foundation that's on top of the cornerstone which is Christ is the apostles and so if you think of a building the foundation has already been laid the next layer is no longer apostles and so the signs that were with the apostles is no longer there either so it's now being built upon those things and besides, we'll get into the scripture I'm assuming, I hope that we get into the scripture.

Why cessationism is true but I think the thinking behind it and I think it's great thinking on this is that when the letters of Paul was being written to churches, there was no New Testament text. So in order to validate the message they weren't opening up to validate the gospel, they weren't opening up to the gospel of John and seeing how he was resurrected and touting Thomas put his fingers into the side they were hearing these things as stories as the apostles went around telling them and as letters were being written to them and so all these things, these early churches in the first century as they were receiving these things, it was validated by these signed gifts once that canon had been established.

Now we, according to John chapter 20 just as doubting Thomas put his finger into the side, the nail prints in his hand that had been pierced for us just as doubting Thomas has done that these things have been written for you that you might not be unbelieving but believing and so since those things have now been written for us this is now the validation when we hold the word of God in our hands it is the equivalent of doubting Thomas putting his hand into the side of Jesus so that we will be believing.

Church History, the Great Awakenings, and the Rise of Cultic Claims

Do you mind if I give a little historical background of a lot of this stuff.

Give a historical background. And then I want to see I want to talk about things that may have happened in our lives that are we might say miraculous or things that we cannot explain. And then after we mention these things still show why we are sensationalists before you start.

The point is we are not saying that God cannot do what God wants to do you see what I am saying. Things can happen in your life that only God can do and you can still be a sensationalist. You can still hold to what we believe and we are going to show that later.

So laying a little foundation I have done several shows on this. You guys know my passion about this. What I implore you out there listening is to go research what I am about to say for yourselves. We have something called church history the last 2000 years from all over the world and there has been times throughout history like John Knox the Scottish reformer who actually the Lord had used him by the spirit to prophesy.

And you had other people just scattered all over the world every now and then. It wasn't this continuous thing and it was God doing it not man. When it came here to the United States we went through the great awakening like Jonathan Edwards where he got up and said to be a sinner in the hands of an angry God and people just broke real revival, real repentance.

It's a documented real authentic move of the spirit for calling people to repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ. And it affected their whole community for decades. And what happened after that here in the United States.

The first great awakening was global. It was happening in Europe, the United States. It was happening in New Zealand all over the world. And we didn't have internet and all that kind of stuff. But the second great awakening was man made because it was the age of reason they call it where people were going away from the church in droves because of what's it called oh gosh, what's it called Charles Darwin, evolution.

The Bible is literature but all the things in the Bible the miracles, none of that was true. So there was a great falling away of people and so that resulted in something called the restoration movement and where we live right now in Tennessee we are in the belt buckle.

I mean not the belt buckle but the Bible belt. And this is a direct result of the second great awakening where they were having all these revivals and the Pentecostal church started the seventh day in Venice Mormonism Jehovah's Witnesses.

Churches of Christ.

It all started because of the restoration movement that God was going to restore the gifts back to the church. Unfortunately it was the age of cults. This is the beginning of cults. So when Mormonism first started the reason why people were coming from all different denominations is because they were speaking in tongues they were prophesying, they were doing miracles.

Now this is documented and you can actually go online and find this on YouTube. It's called Long for Truth. And what the guy does is he goes through all the old newspaper clippings from the 1800s where newspaper reporters were actually reporters and they would go and document these things going on where people would be barking like dogs and meowing like giraffes.

So we have a starting point of when all this stuff started taking place. And so what has evolved in today is Charismania and the prosperity gospel. And you see it develop over time. But there was a time where it first started and it was the 1800s.

And so the reason why we have the continuationists and we have the sensationalists we believe in the spirit of God we believe that God heals. We believe that there are still miracles. We believe God can do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it.

But he doesn't need me to do it. This doesn't fall on like I have the gift of this or that if you guys want to see a real miracle authentic right now and you're a believer in Christ. Go look in the mirror because you're the miracle.

I think it goes with the idea people are not laying the sick down on the ground for me as I walk by them for my shadow that's cast on the ground and my shadow heals them. If someone really had the gift of healing they would be absolutely evil not to go to St. Jude's.

If you really have this gift from God then you need to use this gift from God. But what we see portrayed is it's not that but God does heal. I've seen this in my life. I'm going to tell real quickly two stories that happened to me and you might say there's no way.

You're a sensationist and I'm telling you don't judge me so first let's talk about tongues. As you remember I said that I was originally ordained in the church of God, the symbolism of God. I actually believed in speaking in tongues.

Now hear me out.

We're doing it right now.

The whole time I was ordained I never spoke in actual tongues but something did happen to me and I want to say what it is. I saw people speaking in tongues and I prayed. I said God if this is real I want to be able to do it listen, 1689 Reformed Baptist I'm going to put that out there before I say this.

I said I want to be able to do it God if this is real. That's how I prayed to God. And that night I went to sleep. And if you know me personally no matter where I am in my house if I fall to the ground there's a weapon.

My house is full of weapons. I have a paranoia about someone coming in my house and me having anywhere I fall there's a weapon for me that I know personally where it is. And it's always been like that with me growing up in bad neighborhoods and stuff like that.

But I was asleep and I heard someone in my house having a conversation. I heard someone and I woke up reaching for a weapon and I realized it was me. I was speaking a language I could not understand I couldn't stop it, I was putting my hand over my mouth trying to stop it and it would not stop.

And then in my head I started praying what in the world am I saying. And then I was able to hear two different languages the gibberish and I also was hearing Jesus you are the son of God repeated over and over and over and over and I was still putting my hands like this trying to get it to stop and when it stopped I was freaking out freaking out and I went and told my sensationalist pastor at the time I was a part of a Presbyterian church and he said God doesn't do that no more.

And I said I don't know what happened to me. I'm not making it up. Something happened to me and I'm not making it up. And so his response caused me to leave that Presbyterian church and to start being a part of a assemblies of God church and so second thing believe it or not if you can't believe what I just said don't believe anything I ever said.

Second thing a miracle is something that you cannot explain. You're talking about God in eternity reaching into time and changing a situation. That's what I would call a miracle. I don't know what your definition is but that's what I call a miracle.

So for those of you that know me now a lot of y 'all are probably going to send some judgment on me and that's fine but this is just the way my life is. So I was married once before and my daughter's mom had left us left me with my daughter.

She left me for something else so it was just me and I had my daughter and we were by ourselves. All I had was me and my daughter. She took everything but the kids she had some issues she's better now.

But then it wasn't the case and so I didn't have anything. I had lost my job things were not going good for me. I didn't have no brakes in my vehicle. I'm having to drive and I didn't have any brakes.

I didn't have any money for gas and I'm going down a hill and my brakes went completely out. I'm hitting the brakes and nothing is there. I'm stomping them. I'm stomping the brakes, nothing's there and my gas gauge is on E and I screamed out Jesus help and all of a sudden I had brakes and I had gas in my car and I cannot explain it to you.

I cannot explain it to you and I say that telling you that there's no such thing as a miracle worker today there's no such thing as prophet so-and-so and apostle so-and-so. But God hears the prayers of His people.

God can do what God wants to do and God from eternity can reach into time and change the situation because He's done it for me and that's the only time that I can ever say I've witnessed a miracle like that outside of salvation.

I had no gas and I had no brakes. I screamed His name and all of a sudden I had brakes and I had gas and I can't explain it to you. But it actually happened. And if you don't believe that you shouldn't believe anything else I say in this world it actually happened.

And yes I am a sensationist.

And you believe in Bigfoot. I'm just kidding.

Bigfoot believes in me baby.

I was just having a talk with one of my pastor friends you all know David Hernandez down in California and it's kind of like I think that sensationists get a bad rap like we don't believe in the move of the spirit and what God is doing but we do and God's sovereignty and He does amazing things.

I had a stroke. I was paralyzed on the left side I could not speak and I was bedridden for a year and I heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and I came out of the grave. That was the greatest thing that ever happened to me now because God chose before time, space and matter that this was going to happen that He was going to restore my voice and restore me able to walk and talk and everything again.

Now I was able to go and proclaim Christ and Him crucified and so I totally believe in it. But I think what we're seeing today is it's a mockery of the Holy Spirit it's a mockery of what God does. I look at the scriptures and I'm like there's no more judges right?

No I'm just going through here and when I read God's word in context and I look at all the if you read Genesis to Revelation you're going to see a couple things. You're going to see a story from heaven heaven's view of earth and earth's view of heaven from Genesis all the way to Revelation and you're going to see patterns of how God has given gifts to Moses and Joshua and God has given gifts to Elijah and Elisha.

And Jesus and His Apostles.

And Jesus and His Apostles you can see all the way through. But yeah I'm sorry I just went on a rant.

The Normal Pattern of Sign Gifts and the Sufficiency of the Closed Canon

The normative is not signing gifts is not having signed gifts. So you mentioned Moses and Joshua I think it was a period of around 65 years. Elijah and Elisha I think it was 65 years. And I think Jesus and His Apostles I think that lasted around a period of 70 years or something like that I can't remember exactly but having signed gifts has never been the normal thing.

But we can read in scripture and see God do abnormal things and I think that still happens today. God can do whatever God wants. If I didn't think God could heal why would I pray that. God would heal someone and listen.

I pray. I have a prayer list daily people send me stuff all the time to pray for. And if I didn't think God was able to do these things why would I ask Him to do something that He wasn't able to do. It would be like asking my 2 year old to drive my car I need you to drive my car.

Why would I ask Him to do that. I wouldn't. But God can do what He wants to do. And the signed gifts have always been to validate the message the Israelites needed to know that Moses and Joshua was sent to them that God was speaking through Moses and Joshua and they were to listen to them.

How were they to know this by the signed gifts. I would say the same thing concerning Elijah and Elisha. And most definitely Jesus and the Apostles in the period of the transitioning of the Old Covenant to the New Covenant that they needed signed gifts.

And now that we have the New Covenant which I don't know where y 'all stand on this 1 Corinthians 13. Speaking about the perfect I think you mentioned it earlier but I believe this is what it's speaking about.

This is the perfect. We don't need signed gifts because the Bible validates the message. But when God's people is in need depending on the situation I think God hears our prayers and God can intervene even if it means Him reaching into time and changing the situation.

There's something that's different that goes on there too. The important part is that this was taking place during the time when there was not a closed canon and so these things that were taking place were very closely associated with the canonicity of the scripture.

But what about the Old Testament. Wouldn't you say during the Apostles time that the Old Testament canon was closed. Yeah the Old Testament was.

But not inspired scripture.

Like when you talk about the Apocrypha the Jews didn't carry the Apocrypha in the text that we had.

This is what I'm saying in Hebrews chapter 1 verse 2. It says that in the long time ago he spoke to us through the voice of the prophets but now in these last days he spoke to us through his son Jesus.

Paul claims to be the last apostle. I was going to read this real fast for us and use this analogy because that's what scripture plays for us. So in 1 Corinthians 13 verse 10 and I would love to read these entire chapters because this is what I'm talking about.

Let's look at the verse 10 the perfect verse.

I'm breaking up a little bit.

Let me say that again 1 Corinthians 13 verse 10. But when the perfect comes.

The partial will be done away.

When I was a child I used to speak like a child think like a child, reason like a child. When I became a man I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mere dimly.

But then face to face now I know in part but then I will know fully.

As I have been fully known and so there's several places that we can go when we're dissecting this text but my sons I am eager for the day that I get to see them be men. I'm eager for the day where we get to sit around a campfire.

We get to smoke pipe together. I'm eager for that day. However right now. They're sitting in the camper next to me right now playing with childish toys. They're doing childish things. If we're sitting around the campfire in 20 years from now and they're still playing with toys I would be ashamed as a father.

And so what I'm trying to say is in the analogy that even Paul uses when we talk about seeing face to face I'm saying that that's talking about the perfect which is scripture that you held up earlier.

Jeff. That is sufficient for us. What's happening when people are using sign gifts and using sign miracles that they're saying as the sign miracles that we're experiencing in scripture. That's like if a 30 year old my son started playing with baby shark toys.

Do do do do do do right. I would be ashamed as a father that my son is doing that I would want my son being a man at that time. And so that's what I'm saying. Is the church. The canonosity of scripture has been established there is no more further revelation because that would undermine everything that the scripture has taught on that.