Is Cessationism true or false

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Join us to hear our thoughts on what we believe concerning the gifts of the Spirit

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You can say what you want, but you won't around me. Black sheep among misfits, a misfit in the trailer park at night.
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A misprint with the sixth sense, been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D.
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My two cents never made sense, either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence.
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My 9th Smith on my right side. Why you staring at your cock dot sign and my
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John Hancock on the dotted line? Tell me what's the bottom line. The bottom line is
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I'm not right. I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight. There's nothing left but the spotlight.
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Hold my beer, you can find me in the moonlight. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.
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You can say what you want. You can say what you want. I'm within the deep end, and I can't find my assigned seat to sit in.
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My theology don't fit in. Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen. To the
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Reformed, I'm just another Baptist baptized again. The bastard child of Anabaptist, host to child of Reformation society.
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We don't need your education. Give me a Bible and a bookshelf of dead men.
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Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans. Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men. Making Reformation great again.
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You can say what you want. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.
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You can say what you want. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.
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Around me, around me, around me. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the
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Open Air Theology Show. My name is Jeff, and I'm one of the pastors of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church out here in Tullahoma, Tennessee.
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And I'm here with my good friends and co -hosts, Brayden and Haps. I'm going to pass it over to Brayden to let him introduce himself, and he'll pass it to Haps.
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Yeah, I'm Pastor Brayden of Valley Baptist Church. I hope you're having a blessed and wonderful night. Just super thankful to be on the podcast here on Open Air Theology with Brother Haps and Jeff.
02:51
Camping right now, looking for Bigfoot. It is confirmed. I have not seen one, heard one. Man, stop lying.
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Not yet. Also not doing demon calls out here or anything like that. Nope, just super thankful to be here, smoking my one and only pipe for this trip.
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So saved it for these guys. Hope you guys feel special right now, because you are. And on that note, I'll pass it to Haps.
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I'm a little jealous. You should be. Well, it's still daylight. You know, he comes out at night.
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That's right. They're nocturnal. Yeah, nocturnal. Fair enough. Fair enough. They're like kitty cats.
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Are we talking about Bigfoot or the demon worshipers? Both of them. Same thing, whatever.
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So I am Haps Addison, former pastor of Bottle Branch Ministries, one of the hosts of Open Air Theology and Repent and Believe Studios.
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And I'm here in Woodbury, Tennessee. And my system is down again.
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So I'm coming live from my cell phone. All right.
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Well, to answer this one guy's question, Josh, he's asking, what kind of music is this? That's the kind of music that me and my co -elder make.
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Kind of a little mixture between rap and rock. So I've gotten two out so far, two songs.
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And the next one that we're going to be working on is more, it's going to be more geared toward hip hop, but not really mainstream hip hop.
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And it's going to be called pimps and prostitutes. It's going to be really good. Just speaking about how
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Jesus came for pimps and prostitutes. But anyways, let's get off of that subject.
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So our, hold on. Didn't know.
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Well, when I was 14, when I was 14, I signed to an underground rap label in Flint, Michigan called
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Slit Your Wrist Productions. And I rapped, freestyle rap.
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I used to go to parties and battle and stuff like that. I owned up until I was 26. I stopped rapping at 26.
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And I just got back into it, man. Just something to kill time.
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It is what it is. So our conversation for tonight is, is sensationism true or false?
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And we would really like to hear what y 'all guys have to say in the comments. So feel free to comment.
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That's not to say that we'll have time to interact with every comment, but it's fun reading the comments.
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So, yeah. So let's get into it. Is sensationalism true or false?
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What do you guys think? I want to remind you, before you answer,
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I want to remind you that there is a sensationalism documentary dropping at the
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G3 conference Wednesday. And I told you that I didn't think I'd be able to make it to watch it, but I'm going to make it.
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I'm going to watch it. Yeah. Because I got to find out if they're right or not, right? I mean, if they don't agree with me, we got problems.
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Plus our whole crew is going to be there. Yeah, plus our whole crew is going to be there. Well, I think maybe,
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Jeff, maybe you can define for us what is sensationalism and what is continuationism.
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Well, I've been talking the whole time, so let's have Brayden to introduce that. I'm trying to share everything with y 'all and my brothers.
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Yeah, so sensationalism is definitely true. Let me define those things real fast for us.
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So the conversation gets a little bit more deeper than just sensationalism versus continuationism. There's different flavors and types of sensationalism and different flavors and types of continuationism in there.
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But the main thought of it is that when somebody says they're a cessationist, that the sign gifts, namely that of prophecy and speaking the tongues, has ceased, whereas continuationists usually would say that they have not ceased.
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And so inside those camps, there's the extremes on both sides where you would have some very, very dogmatic, very, very strict cessationists that go so far onto,
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I would say, go fall into the gutter, that say that no miracles today exist whatsoever. And then on the other side of the coin with continuationists, you have the
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Pentecostal, Benny Hinn people falling on the ground. Everybody falls except for the cameraman because the cameraman has to capture the falling on the ground.
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Right. So there's these two, these two, these two far gaps that are on each side of this road.
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Brayden, if I can interrupt, the wind blows where it wishes. Fair enough. The wind didn't wish to blow on the cameraman.
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Apparently they only get non -demon possessed cameramen. That's one of the requirements apply for cameraman at these charismatic, charismania churches.
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So I think what we're going to be arguing for tonight is typically there's, and I have some really good great brothers in Christ that are continuationists, but they usually call themselves skeptical continuationists.
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We are very similar in that sense, but we go do cross the line into the camp of cessationism, which we would say that the sign gifts have ceased.
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However, there are occasions where things God works and people are able to miraculous events that take place.
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I hope that's a fair way of explaining. Yeah. I like what Julie also brought to the table.
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She said, or musicians. So the people playing the music don't seem to fall out.
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Is that like a prophetic flag twirling? Well, that's what she used to do.
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So she's probably about to kill me now. Julie from church,
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Pastor Cow's wife. So Pastor Cow, my other elder. So they were involved. Well, I better be quiet.
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Don't kick my butt. Yes. For those of you that don't know.
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So I used to when I was originally ordained in 2010.
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So 2010, I was ordained in the Pentecostal circles.
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So assemblies of God, churches of God. So the group that I was associated with was kind of a mixed breed, which is why
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I say both of them. It was kind of a mixed breed. So we were a part of a assemblies of God church.
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The church plant we were down was assemblies of God, 16 fundamentals, stuff like that. But they it was a mixed ministry with the churches of God.
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So the Bible college that I went to was assemblies of God and stuff like that. And because of things that happened in my life,
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I kind of bought into it hook, line and sinker. And so I was actually preaching at a church plan at the time through the gospel of John, which that's what
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I'm in right now. I'm in I'm in chapter eight. So so this coming Lord's Day will be my fifty fourth or fifty first message in the gospel of John.
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And so at this time, I wasn't going as slow, but I made it to chapter three. So I was also preaching at this time at a jail.
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So I was involved with the government. That's part of the genesis kind of spectrum by spectrum.
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And then I was asked to create the church plan. I was like, I'm going to do what I do at the jail, but I'm going to use the
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New Testament. And so I just started going through the gospel of John. I got the chapter three that the 16 fundamentals that for.
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John, chapter three, didn't agree with. And I mentioned that as I was preaching and I kind of said, and I kind of said,
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I'm just going to set the tradition aside. And I'm going to give you what the text has to say.
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And it ended up being that, you know, it was the the truth, which I didn't know it was the truth at the time.
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I didn't know if I was a heretic. I didn't know what to think. But but that I didn't go and visit my mom and my dad before they, you know, got together and hooked up and had me.
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Right. I didn't say, hey, I didn't go to him in some kind of a vision or dream and say, hey, you know, y 'all, you know, hook up.
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Y 'all have me. You know, I didn't have any kind of say so. I didn't ask to be born. It's just it was something that happened to me.
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And I and I mentioned that the new birth is not something we ask for, but it's something that happens to us.
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And that was the last time I preached at that church plant. And so, again, I didn't know what to believe. And I stumbled across like, you know,
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I had just got a, you know, the the smartphones that just came out.
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I found John MacArthur on YouTube. I was listening to his sermons. And so at this time, it was 2013 in the the
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Strange Fire Conference had just dropped. And so I'm listening to the Strange Fire Conference and I'm like, whoa, what is this?
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And, you know, and then I'm kind of connecting like like like growing like in the circles that I was in for a pastor to just stand behind the pulpit and preach.
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Like we would say, this guy is boring. I need someone walking around the room, stripping off their outfit, throwing it at folks.
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And, you know, I'm saying walk around holding the Bible. But but but watching
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Steve Lawson captivate my attention, just standing behind the pulpit really did a number on me.
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Like it wrecks my world. And so I just started diving in. But but I heard John MacArthur before the
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Strange Fire Conference. I'm sorry I geared off on that. Before the Strange Fire Conference, I heard John MacArthur preach on the new birth. And I said, that's exactly what
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I said in the pulpit at that church. But I didn't I didn't know. I didn't know if I was a heretic or not.
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And I was like, well, what does this guy believe? And so I found John MacArthur. I found Steve Lawson, which connected me to eventually, you know,
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James White and all these other reformed guys. And it really steered my direction and where I was going.
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But I'll talk about the miracles later. Sorry I went on a tangent.
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No, that's that's all good. You got to chase them around every once in a while. Well, you know, you know that that's
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I actually landed into a free Methodist church where anything goes.
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When I first came to know the Lord and was really drawn. I mean, just like, you know, because growing up,
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I was so fascinated with the occult and, you know, all that stuff.
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Tarot cards, whatever, you know, was just fascinated by the casting of runes and stuff like that.
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I just had this natural curiosity about these things. So when
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I started hearing about how I have a testimony and it was like really everything was like really focused on me.
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I found myself being pulled into these charismatic circles because I had a testimony.
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I had an anointing. I had this or that. And what I soon came to find out was it was it was all about me and Christ is in the in the passenger seat.
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You know, I mean, that's serious, you know. And and so I was really just, you know, all the miracles, all the everything, you know, the gifts of healing, all that, all that type of stuff.
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The prophecy of that prophecy was just really, really attracted to until I started seeing its damaging effects on people, including myself.
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I didn't have enough faith. I didn't you know, it was just it was almost like a works.
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I had to perform all these works and this legalistic spirit came over me.
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No, I'm just kidding. No, this legalistic feeling that that everybody else isn't on my level because of their lack of faith and their lack of belief in the in the gifts.
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And it wasn't until shortly after that, and I mean shortly after I wasn't into it for years and years and years or anything.
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But for about two, three years, I was just it was my whole life, you know, having dreams about angels, seeing angels and all this kind of stuff.
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But it wasn't until I actually asked the Lord for understanding in the scriptures and that he would send me godly men that that would hold me accountable to what
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I was saying. In the name of God, to the word of God. And and that's when my whole world just crumbled.
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And seeing that that it's Christ in Christ alone that does all this.
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Yeah. So real quick, I want to answer a little Leah, Neil, a friend of mine. So I would say that it's not a salvation issue.
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I don't think that I became saved when
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I stopped believing in trying to figure out.
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Well, let's just say I don't believe I became saved when I became reformed. So as a assemblies of God, I believe that I had true faith in Jesus Christ and I was saved.
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Now, some reformed people might disagree with that, and I would say that they got problems and, you know, it is what it is.
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But the salvation isn't through believing in the reformed tradition. Salvation is by faith, grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone.
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And I would say and that is to the glory of God alone. Every one of us have some theological points that that that we could fix.
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And unlike most people, I really want to know where I'm where I'm where I'm lacking so I can fix these theological points.
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And again, so I think it was touched on earlier, but and I'm sure we'll get on it later. But I want to ask
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Braden a question, Braden. So is there any kind of Pentecostalism type trans that that you were exposed to in the
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Mormon church? As far as Mormonism goes, no, not not to the degree that like you're thinking like a
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Pentecostal church, usually no one ran around the room. No one was running around the room. They do believe in it, in the in the gift of tongues like I am and prophecy, of course, because they believe that there's modern prophets.
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So they they would be continuationists and apostles. Yep. And so the thinking is, is since that was so in Mormonism specifically.
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So all these questions that are asked on here, just everybody that's watching this is all is all we do not talk about this beforehand.
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So I did not I was not expecting to go to Mormonism on this stuff. But however, and within Mormonism, they would say that since they're in their view, that the true church of Christ was no longer existing after the death of the apostles through Joseph Smith.
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They picked up all that was lost and now they have the restored church. And that would include the sign gifts such as speaking in tongues and prophecy.
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And so they would not be as extreme. I would maybe in some ways they're extreme, like some prophecies that they said were extreme, but not in the very outward demonstration.
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Like and we all can think of that example of people rolling around on the ground, holding snakes in their hands, that kind of look.
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Right. They wouldn't have gotten that to that degree. Right. Right now. Right now.
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Yeah. And even even even in the early LDS stuff, from my understanding, there was none that was that crazy.
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They would say like the speaking in tongues, they would argue is known languages. And they would also say that the men that go to the
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MTC, the missionary training center in Utah, they would say that that is where these men receive the gift of tongues to be able to go into foreign missions and speak languages at a very quick, rapid rate comparative to other individuals in the world.
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So that's their that's their justification on what they would what they would be arguing for. Which I think leads perfectly into my argument of why cessationism is true, is that the sign gifts were for the times of the apostles to validate an early message, the early, the greatest revelation of all things, which is
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God dwelling amongst man, dying for us and rising again. And so to validate that message, apostles were there, scripture was being written.
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And once the apostles died and the perfect, and I'm sure we'll talk about that in a little bit, came, those things left along with the apostles, as Paul himself would say that he was the last of the apostles.
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The chief cornerstone of the church is Christ. And then the next stones, the foundation that's on top of the cornerstone, which is
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Christ, is the apostles. And so if you think of a building, the foundation has already been laid.
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The next layer is no longer apostles. And so the signs that were with the apostles is no longer there either.
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So it's now being built upon those things. And you have to, I think, and besides, we'll get into the scripture,
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I'm assuming, I hope that we get into the scripture why cessationism is true. But I think the thinking behind it, and I think it's great thinking on this, is that when the letters of Paul was being written to churches, there was no
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New Testament text. So in order to validate the gospel, they weren't opening up to the gospel of John and seeing how he was resurrected and touting
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Thomas put his fingers into the side. And they were hearing these things as stories, as the apostles went around telling them and as letters were being written to them.
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And so all these things, these early churches in the first century, as they were receiving these things, it was validated by these signed gifts.
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Once that canon had been established. Now we, according to John chapter, I believe it's
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John chapter 20, just as doubting Thomas put his finger into the side, the nail prints in his hand into the side that had been pierced for us.
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Just as doubting Thomas has done that. These things, as what John says, these things have been written for you, that you might not be unbelieving, but believing.
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And so since those things have now been written for us, though, this is now the validation. It's that when we hold the word of God in our hands, it is the equivalent of doubting
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Thomas putting his hand into the side of Jesus. It's so that we will be believing. Do you mind if I give a little historical background of a lot of this stuff?
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Yes, I'll give a historical background. And then I want to see I want to talk about things that may have happened in our lives that are, you know, we might say miraculous or things that we can't explain.
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And then after we mentioned these things still show why we're continuing. I mean, still show why we're sensationalist.
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Yes, because before you start, the point is, is you can, you know, again, we're not saying that God cannot do what
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God wants to do. That's right. You see what I'm saying? But we, you know, things can happen in your life that only
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God can do. And you can still be a sensationist. You can still hold to what we believe.
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And we're going to show that later. Go ahead. So, you know, laying a little foundation, you know,
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I've done several shows on this. You guys know my passion about this. And, you know, what what
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I or you, you out there listening is to go research what
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I'm about to say for yourself. All right. We have something called church history. The last 2000 years.
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All right. From all over the world. And there has been times throughout history like John Knox, the
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Scottish reformer, who actually the Lord had used him by the spirit to prophesy.
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And and you had other people, I mean, just scattered all over the world every now and then.
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It wasn't this continuous thing and it was God doing it, not man. Now, when it came here to the
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United States, we went through the Great Awakening, like Jonathan Edwards, where he he got up and said to be a sinner in the hands of an angry
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God. And people just broke real revival, real, real repentance. It's a documented, real, authentic move of the spirit for calling people to repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ.
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And it affected their whole community for decades. All right.
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And what happened after that is here in the United States, I'm talking now. Now get that the first Great Awakening was global, by the way, global.
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It was happening in Europe. It was happening in the United States. It was happening in New Zealand, all over the world.
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All right. And we didn't have Internet and all that kind of stuff. But the second great, great awakening was man made because it was the time of the age of reason.
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They call it where people were going away from the church in droves because of like, what's it called?
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Oh, gosh. What's it called? Charles Darwin. Evolution.
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You had where the Bible is literature, but all the things in the
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Bible, the miracles and everything, none of that was true. So there was a great falling away, let's just say, of people.
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And so that that resulted in something called the restoration movement. And where we live right now in Tennessee, we are in the belt buckle.
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I mean, not the belt buckle, but the Bible belt. And this is a direct result of the second great awakening where they were having all these revivals.
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And and the Pentecostal church started the seven day
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Adventist Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jehovah's Witnesses, churches of Christ, churches of Christ.
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It all started because of the the restoration movement that that God was going to restore the gifts back to the church.
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Unfortunately, it was the age of cults. All right. This is the beginning of cults.
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So when Mormonism first started, the reason why people were coming from all different denominations is because they were speaking in tongues.
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They were prophesying. They were having doing miracles. Now, this is documented and you can actually go to online and find this on YouTube and find this guy.
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It's called Long for Truth. And what the guy does is he goes through all the old newspaper clippings from the eighteen hundreds where newspaper reporters were actually reporters.
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And they would go and document these things going on where people would be barking like dogs and meowing like giraffes or whatever.
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But so you we we have a starting point of when all this stuff started taking place.
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And so what is involved in today's charismania and it's and the prosperity gospel and you see it develop over time.
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But there was a time where it first started and it was the eighteen hundreds. And so and so that the reason why we have the continuationist and we have the sensationalist is we believe in the spirit of God.
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We believe that God heals. We believe that there's still miracles. We believe God can do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it.
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But he he he he doesn't need me to do it. It's not this doesn't fall on like I have the gift of this or that.
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You know, if you guys want to see a real miracle authentic right now and you're a believer in Christ, go look in the mirror.
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Yeah. Because you're the miracle. Yeah. I think it goes with the idea like like, you know, like people are not laying the sick down on the ground for for me as I walk by them for my shadow that that's cast on the ground and my shadow heals them.
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Right. Like, you know, if someone really had the gift of healing, they would be absolutely evil not to go to St.
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Or, you know, like like if you really have this gift from God, then then you need to use this gift from God.
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But what we see portrayed is it's not that. But God does heal.
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Right. I mean, I've seen this in my life and I will tell real quickly two stories that that happened to me.
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And you might say, there's no way you're a sensationist. And I'm telling you, don't judge me.
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OK. All right. So. So first, let's talk about tongues. So as you remember,
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I said that I was originally ordained in the Church of God. Sin was of God.
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And so I actually believed in speaking in tongues. But I hear me out.
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We're doing it right now. Yeah. We're doing it right now. But the whole time
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I was ordained, like I never spoke in actual tongues. OK. But something did happen to me one night and I want to say what it is.
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So I had saw people speaking in tongues and I prayed.
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I said, God, if this is real, I want to be able to do it. Listen, 1689,
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Reformed Baptist. OK, I'm going to put that out there when I say this. I said, I want to be able to do it.
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I want to be able to. God, if this is real. I mean, that's how I pray to God, like God, if this is real,
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I want to be able to do it. And that night I went to sleep. And if you know me personally, like no matter where I am in my house, if I fall to the ground, there's a weapon.
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OK, like there's my house is full of weapons because I have this.
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Yeah, I have a I have a paranoia about someone coming in my house and me having, you know, anywhere
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I fall, there's a weapon for me that I know personally where it is. And it's always been like that with me, you know, growing up in bad neighborhoods and stuff like that.
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But I was asleep and I heard someone in my house having a conversation. Like I heard someone and I woke up, you know, reaching for a weapon.
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And I realized it was me. I was speaking some language
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I could not understand. I couldn't stop it. I was put my hand over my mouth trying to stop it and it would not stop, would not stop.
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And then in my head, I started praying. What in the world am I saying? And then I was able to hear two different languages, the gibberish.
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And I also was hearing Jesus, you are the son of God. Repeat it over and over and over and over and over.
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And I'll still put my hands like this trying to get it to stop. And when it stopped,
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I was freaking out, freaking out. And I went and told my sensationist pastor at the time
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I was a part of a Presbyterian church. And he said,
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God doesn't do that no more. And I said, well, I don't know what happened to me. I'm not making it up. I'm not making it up.
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Something happened to me and I'm not making it up. And so his response caused me to leave that Presbyterian church and to be to start being a part of a assemblies of God church.
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And so second thing, believe it or not, it doesn't. If you can't believe what I just said, don't believe anything
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I ever said. Second thing, a miracle is something that you cannot explain.
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You're talking about God in eternity, reaching into time and changing a situation.
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That's what I would call a miracle. Now, I don't know what your definition is, but that's what I call a miracle.
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So for those of you that know me, so now a lot of y 'all probably going to send some judgment on me and that's fine.
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But this is just the way my life is. I was married once before and my daughter's mom had left me with my daughter.
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She left me for something else. So it was just me and I had my daughter and we were by ourselves.
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All I had was me and my daughter. She took everything but the kids. She has some issues.
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She's better now. But then it wasn't the case. And so I didn't have anything, man.
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I had lost my job. Things were not going good for me. I didn't have no brakes in my vehicle.
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I'm having to drive and I didn't have any brakes. I didn't have any money for gas.
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And I'm going down a hill and my brakes went completely out. I'm hitting the brakes and nothing is there.
34:02
I'm stomping them. I'm stomping the brakes. Nothing's there. And my gas gauge is on E. And I screamed out,
34:09
Jesus, help. And all of a sudden, I had brakes. And I had gas in my car.
34:15
And I cannot explain it to you. I cannot explain it to you. And I say that telling you that there's no such thing as a miracle worker today.
34:29
There's no such thing as prophet so -and -so and apostle so -and -so. But God hears the prayers of his people.
34:38
God can do what God wants to do. And God from eternity can reach into time and change the situation.
34:44
Because he's done it for me. And that's the only time that I can ever say I've witnessed a miracle like that outside of salvation.
34:52
I had no gas and I had no brakes. I screamed his name. And all of a sudden, I had brakes and I had gas.
34:59
And I can't explain it to you. But it actually happened. And if you don't believe that, you shouldn't believe anything else
35:06
I say in this world. It actually happened. And, yes, I am a sensationist.
35:14
And you believe in Bigfoot. I'm just kidding. Bigfoot believes in me, baby. I'm just kidding.
35:20
No, you know, I have to, you know, I was just having a talk with one of my pastor friends.
35:27
You all know David Hernandez down in California. And it's kind of like, you know,
35:36
I think that sensationists get a bad rap. Like we don't believe in the move of the spirit, you know, and what
35:42
God is doing. But we do. And God's sovereign people.
35:47
And He does amazing things. Like I had a full -blown,
35:53
I had a stroke. I was paralyzed on the left side. I could not speak. And I heard the gospel and I was bedridden for a year.
36:03
And I heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I came out of the grave.
36:11
That was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. Now, because God chose before time, space, matter that this was going to happen.
36:19
That He was going to restore my voice. And restore me able to walk and talk and everything again.
36:26
Now I was able to go and proclaim Christ. And Him crucified.
36:32
You know, and so I totally believe in it. But I think what we're seeing today is it's a mockery of the
36:43
Holy Spirit. It's a mockery of what God does. You know, like I look at the scriptures and I'm like, well, there's no more judges, right?
36:54
No. You know, there's no more. I'm just going through here. And when
36:59
I read God's word in context. And I look at all the...
37:04
If you read Genesis to Revelation, you're going to see a couple things. You're going to see a recapitulation.
37:11
You're going to see like a story from heaven. Heaven's view of earth. And earth's view of heaven.
37:20
From Genesis all the way to Revelation. Alright. And you're going to see patterns of how
37:25
God has given gifts to Moses and Joshua. And God has given gifts to Elijah and Elisha.
37:32
And Jesus and his apostles. And Jesus and his apostles. You know, you can see all the way through.
37:40
But yeah, I'm sorry. I just went on a rant. No, the normative is not signing gifts.
37:47
The normative is not having signed gifts. So you mentioned Moses and Joshua.
37:55
I think it was a period of around 65 years. Elijah and Elisha. I think it was 65 years.
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And I think Jesus and his apostles. I think that lasted around a period of 70 years or something like that.
38:08
I can't remember exactly. But having signed gifts has never been the normal thing.
38:14
But we can read in Scripture and see God do abnormal things. And I think that still happens today.
38:24
God can do whatever God wants. If I didn't think God could heal, why would
38:30
I pray that God would heal someone? And listen, I pray. I have a prayer list daily.
38:38
People send me stuff all the time to pray for. And if I didn't think God was able to do these things, why would
38:45
I ask him to do something that he wasn't able to do? It would be like asking my two -year -old to drive my car.
38:56
I need you to drive my car. And he's two years old. Why would I ask him to do that? I wouldn't. But God can do what he wants to do.
39:07
And the signed gifts have always been to validate the message. The Israelites needed to know that Moses and Joshua was sent to them.
39:18
I mean, that God was speaking through Moses and Joshua, and they were to listen to them. Well, how were they to know this?
39:24
By the signed gifts, right? I would say the same thing concerning Elijah and Elisha, and most definitely
39:34
Jesus and the apostles in the period of the transitioning of the Old Covenant to the
39:40
New Covenant, that they needed signed gifts. And now that we have the
39:46
New Testament, which I don't know where y 'all stand on this, in 1 Corinthians chapter 13, speaking about the perfect.
39:52
I think you mentioned it earlier. But I believe that this is what it's speaking about, the perfect. Like this is the perfect.
39:58
We have the perfect Word of God. We don't need signed gifts because the
40:04
Bible validates the message. But when God's people's in need, you know, depending on the situation,
40:13
I think God hears our prayers and God can intervene, even if it means him reaching into time and changing a situation.
40:25
Yeah, you know, I think there's something that's different that goes on there too. Like, so the important part is that this was taking place during the time when there was not a closed canon.
40:34
And so these things that were taking place were very closely associated with the canonicity of the scripture.
40:40
But what about the Old Testament? Wouldn't you say during the apostles' time that the Old Testament canon was closed?
40:47
Because even when it comes to the... Yeah, the Old Testament was, but not inspired scripture, right?
40:54
Like when you talk about the Apocrypha, the Jews didn't carry the Apocrypha in with the text that we have.
41:01
Right, so this is what I'm saying, though, is in Hebrews 1, verse 2, it says that in the long times ago, he spoke to us through the voice of the prophets.
41:09
But now in these last days, he's speaking to us through his son Jesus, right? Paul claims to be the last apostle in the verse.
41:17
And so I was going to read this real fast for us and use this analogy because that's what scripture plays for us. So in 1
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Corinthians 13, verse 10, right? And I would love to read these entire chapters because this is what
41:31
I'm talking about. Let's look at the verse 10, the perfect verse. I'm breaking up a little bit, man.
41:42
Okay, let me say that again. 1 Corinthians 13, verse 10, it says, But when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
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When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child.
41:58
When I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mere dimly, but then face to face.
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Now I know in part, but then I will know fully. As I fully know.
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And so there's several places that we've gone when we're dissecting this text. But my son, my sons,
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I am eager for the day that I get to see them be men, right? I'm eager for the day where we get to sit around a campfire.
42:32
We get to smoke pipe together, reading God's word together, right? I'm eager for that day. However, right now, they're sitting in the camper next to me right now, playing with childish toys.
42:44
They're doing childish things. If we're sitting around the campfire in 20 years from now, and they're still playing with toys,
42:50
I would be ashamed as a father. And so what I'm trying to say is in the analogy that even
42:57
Paul uses, when we talk about seeing face to face, I'm saying that that's talking about the perfect, which is scripture that you held up earlier,
43:07
Jeff. That is sufficient for us. What's happening when people are using sign gifts and using sign miracles that were, that they're saying is the sign miracles that were experienced in scripture.
43:19
That's like if a 30 year old, my son started playing with baby shark toys.
43:25
Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, right? I would be ashamed as a father that I, my son is doing that.
43:34
I wouldn't want my son being a man at that time. And so that's what I'm saying is this is the church. The canonicity of scripture has been established.
43:41
There is no more further revelation because that would undermine everything that the scripture is taught on that.
43:46
And if, if the canon is closed, the perfect has come. The church is mature.
43:52
Don't go back to childish things. Miracles still take place. God still changes hearts.
43:59
God still touches people's lives. And these in, in they're not insane. That would be a mockery to say that out of God's working, but are unbelievable ways that God, God does things in our lives, right?
44:14
These miracles as you define very elegant. So would you agree with me that we shouldn't be chasing the sign gifts?
44:21
Oh, absolutely not. That would be like my son being third and wanting to play with a
44:29
Spiderman toy, Spiderman Legos, whatever the analogy is. I would be ashamed as a father of a 35 year old son acting like a five year old boy that would not be okay.
44:41
You know, and I think that, you know, when we, again, you know, that, that's why not,
44:47
I mean, let, let me just piggyback off what Brayden said right there. You know,
44:52
I, I think that when we're, you have first Corinthians 12, well, first and foremost, remember this is a letter of correction to the
45:01
Corinth church. And the charges being held against them are being, uh, um, by Paul is arrogance and sexual immorality.
45:10
All right. And he starts off in first Corinthians that, Hey, I hear you guys, there's division in the church.
45:17
And I hear one saying this one saying that there, you know, that. And, and, and so you see this development and, but he keeps showing them love and grace and mercy.
45:27
And then he comes at them with the charges again, and then grace and mercy and charges. Now, when he's going through chapter 12 and, uh, at the very end, it's very, very important that we understand that when you read this in context and you, you, um, you understand, uh, what
45:45
Paul is saying and who is he saying it to and how he's saying it. Um, let me just, uh, pick up in 12, 12, uh, 27.
45:55
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members in it. And God has appointed in the church.
46:02
First apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping administration, uh, and various kinds of tongues are all apostles.
46:15
Question mark are all profits? Question mark. These are rhetorical questions, by the way, are all teachers do all work miracles.
46:24
Do all possess gifts of healings. Uh, do all speak with tongues, do all interpret, but earnestly desire the higher gifts.
46:33
Now, now here's the kicker right here. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
46:39
And then he goes into love and he describes what love is. So, so he describes what love is because there's a reason why he's saying, do all prophesy, do all heal.
46:51
All right. Is, is the reason why he's, he's asking these rhetorical questions is you start to see how the
46:59
Corinth church is all the way through, um, until, uh, 16.
47:05
But, you know, as he, he tells them what love is and then he goes, does love never end? Just like you were saying, you know, we got to put these childish things aside because, uh, um, prophecy is going to pass away.
47:18
As for tongues, it will cease. You know, that was just 2000 years ago, you know?
47:24
And so, and that's why it's so important to know about church history too, because nowhere in here, nowhere in here doesn't say that the gifts were all going to be taken away and then all restored.
47:40
All right. There's nowhere in here doesn't say that, that there was going to be a restoration of the, uh, the gifts, uh, to the church.
47:49
It doesn't say that, but that's the foundational truth of where the Pentecostals, the, and we went through all the cults and everything.
47:58
This is what they all built their doctrine on top of. So I'm sorry.
48:04
I just rambled again. It happens. I've been rambling all night. It's just a rambling man.
48:10
But even, even on that though, like these cults, oftentimes they are able to recognize that these signed gifts were closely associated with apostles, right?
48:20
And that's why in a lot of these cults, you have men that are calling themselves apostles, right? It's, it's this thinking that, and not only that, but you have in these cults, them writing additional scripture.
48:29
Why? Because they recognize that scripture went hand in hand with the time of the signed gifts. And so that, that's, that, that is.
48:37
So like in the old Testament, it's talking about the, the, the grand scheme of things. Like it was always when
48:44
God had a, had miracles being done in, in the regular, regulative way in certain individuals lives, it was always to validate the messages that they had.
48:53
Right. And so when you talk about the gospel, first of all, you have in Matthew chapter 10,
49:00
Jesus telling the apostles, telling the, telling the apostles and telling them directly that you will do these things and you will suffer in these ways because of these things.
49:10
You'll go through the cities and they'll take you before the courts. And, and that you, and those had, when we talk about the grammatical historical, uh, hermeneutic, like that's talking to them, there's an application that we can take from it, but it was talking directly to them.
49:24
And we have to remember it was talking directly to them. And so those healings were for the apostles who were going to be taken before men and they were sent to the lost sheep of Israel.
49:35
Uh, the, the elect is what I would argue that is. And so in order to show the elect their message was true,
49:42
God performed, had them using these sign gifts that he promised to them that they would have.
49:48
And it did validate the message because we have today churches, we have the
49:53
Bible, we have believers, we have people that have been built upon the foundation of the apostles. Why are we trying to destroy the wall to get back down to the apostles, back down to the foundation?
50:05
You don't do that. You keep on building up. Let's get to the roof. Let's, let's, let's, let's get to the roof.
50:10
Let's stay in this state of maturity, not thinking that we need to go back to immaturity. Yeah. And that's why he keeps telling them that, you know, like, uh, at, at the beginning, it was at first Corinthians, uh, when, uh, he says, uh, um, oh yeah.
50:25
Yeah. Look, uh, he goes, uh, first Corinthians three goes, but I brothers could not address you as spiritual people.
50:33
Wait a second. This is a spiritual church right here, isn't it? Okay. Uh, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ, I fed you with milk, not solid food for you were not ready for it.
50:46
And even now you are not ready for your still of the flesh. But while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behave only in a human way?
50:58
And he goes on and on. One says that he's a Paul, but this is the charge that he's coming at this super spiritual church right here.
51:06
That's, you know, Shalom. You know? Yeah. Hey, if I can interrupt just for a second, uh, just to remind people that this come in February, we are, we are hosting a, uh, a, a conference in Tallahoma, Tennessee called why
51:23
Calvinism. We will also be filming a documentary at that time on why
51:28
Calvinism. So the, uh, we have a pre -conference on the dangers of full preterism, which will be
51:35
February the 21st. And in that we'll have two speakers at night.
51:40
Uh, one is, uh, uh, uh, Jeremiah Nortier, uh, or Nortier, however you want to say it.
51:46
I've heard him say it two different ways. And also Sam Frost, they'll be speaking on the dangers of full preterism.
51:54
And I might, you know, I'm saying, uh, give my two cents here and there a little bit. Uh, but on the 22nd through the 24th, we will be having, um, um, uh, why
52:06
Calvinism. And we have a, a great lineup of speakers. So if you haven't got your tickets yet, uh, go to our, our, our website, openairtheology .com.
52:17
And there'll be a little link there for, for Ebright. Uh, but it's going to be a good time. We're going to be, uh, so that, that, so we're going to have different hangouts.
52:28
So depending on, you know, what it is you want to do, but that Thursday, um, um, what's
52:36
Greg Moore's podcast called? Dead Man Walking. Dead Man Walking. Yes. Greg Moore from Dead Man Walking.
52:41
He's going to be hosting us and he's going to be, uh, renting out the cigar shop here in town.
52:49
We have a nice little cigar shop. And so if you smoke cigars, there'll be an opportunity to come hang out, smoke a cigar and talk some theology.
52:57
And then, uh, Friday night, we plan on renting out a restaurant here in town. They have like a bar area with a stage.
53:05
We plan on doing some psalm, some psalm singing and some hymn singing and, um, just having a good
53:13
Christian time. Right. So, uh, be sure to, to go to our website, openairtheology .com
53:19
and pick up your tickets. Now the pre -conference, it's separate from the conference. And as you check out, there'll be a little link there to click on that.
53:29
Um, yeah. Can I add something on that? Yeah, go ahead. We're also going to be doing classes on how to speak to the
53:35
Holy spirit. Um, yeah. And, uh, how to be slain by the fire.
53:44
No, no. If you decide to come, you might make your way into the documentary.
53:51
Uh, if you're a minister and you come, we'll, we'll, we'll probably definitely ask, ask you some questions.
53:57
But in the documentary, we're going to have some, some film of what's taken place during the conference.
54:06
So, yeah. And we're going to, uh, uh, all our brothers and sisters out there, uh, that are all our brothers, uh, that are going to G3.
54:14
We're going to be at G3 next week, next Wednesday. And I'll have a booth.
54:20
Yeah. We'll be sitting there posted up. Yeah. So, so if you don't have you a, uh, a post -Tenderbuss
54:29
Lux Bible, I don't know what you're doing with your life. Uh, are you even reformed?
54:36
Are you even reformed? Right. I mean, are you even a Calvinist? Right. You're probably charismatic and might go to a
54:42
Pentecostal church. So if you look, let me try to move. So if you look right there, there's a small stack of what we're bringing.
54:52
I got, I got like this right here is filled with Bibles. Like I'm bringing 29 post -Tenderbuss
54:58
Lux Bibles to sell. So again, I mean, truly reformed people have a
55:06
PTL Bible. That's all I'm saying. And truly, truly reformed people have a Donner's Oak Pipe.
55:11
I will be doing a giveaway there for a Donner's Oak Pipe too. Yes. So at our conference, um, uh,
55:21
Schultz, Michael, Dr. Michael Schultz is going to be, uh, he has, uh, he has given four different commentary sets.
55:30
Three or four. So, so, so we will be giving away four commentary sets, uh,
55:36
Donner's Oak Pipe, and I will be giving away a PTL Bible also. I'll also have a couple of these for sale too on top of that as well.
55:46
Yeah. So to enter those, all you got to do is when you buy a ticket, you are entered into, you're entered to win these things.
55:56
All right. So back to the sensationism. Yeah. And just to let everybody know that, um, you know, everything we're talking about right now is, uh, let me tell you,
56:05
I was, I was a real, real jerk a few years ago about all of this.
56:10
And until I sat down with Jeff and Jeff was telling me, I need to knock it off that, that we have brothers and sisters that are in this.
56:18
And so you got to understand, I was the, I was that head hunter of charismatics, but, um, uh, look at, we all have, uh, differences and stuff like that.
56:28
And I'm not, I don't want to make anybody feel bad. I just, I want to get biblical and get to what the word says, because,
56:36
Hey, I was in error. What time? Look at, look at, uh, small Paul's right over there. He used to be a
56:41
Mormon and, uh, small Paul's small balls.
56:47
They're average. Okay. No, they're not a child. They're definitely not.
56:54
No, but yeah, I don't want anybody to think that we're attacking anybody because we're not.
57:00
You know, unless you're like Kenneth Copeland or something, but, um, I mean, if you're truly a cult,
57:06
I mean, we, we are in a way, but, but if you are, you know, if you hold to justification by faith alone in Christ alone, and you hold to the doctrine of God, doctrine of the
57:17
Trinity, like, like I would include them as brothers, even though we, we disagree on this, on this certain subject.
57:25
And, um, I mean, I mean, just because of the simple fact that I don't think that I became a believer when
57:33
I became reformed. Um, and so I know that I have a lot of friends and family.
57:39
Well, not, not, not really family, like blood family, but a lot of friends that I consider family who, who are in these kind of, you know, these churches and they believe in these gifts and they believe that they're walking in them and stuff like that.
57:52
And I truly believe they're brothers and sisters in Christ. Yeah. Yeah, totally.
57:58
You know, I just went to a charismatic conference last, uh, was the last Saturday too.
58:03
Did you get slain in the spirit? Twice. You know, they put a blanket over me.
58:10
It was, no, no, no. It wasn't like that at all. It was a men's conference, but, uh.
58:16
All right. Y 'all have anything else y 'all want to say about it? Nope. Brayden? So much more, but we don't got time.
58:23
All right. So let's talk about, uh, so next week we will not have, um, a show because, um, uh, me and Haps will be in Atlanta, Georgia.
58:35
So. How dare you? I'm doing a show by myself. It's going to be just all negative things about Haps Addison and Jeff Rice.
58:44
You don't want to miss it. I'm sure you'll get a big audience for that. But the week after we're going to do a show and we're going to be diving in to covenant theology.
58:57
Uh, there's been a lot of people posting about covenant theology, the covenant of grace and all this other stuff.
59:03
And I really want to, I really want to lay some stuff down and challenge my Presbyterian brothers.
59:09
Um, and also I want, we want to announce that Brayden and myself and Haps is going to be one of the editors of the, uh, we're co -writing a book.
59:22
Uh, Brayden, you want to announce the title of the book? Yeah, it's the, the architecture of the new covenant.
59:30
Uh, um, it'll be a, it's going to be wonderful. We don't want to go too far into it, but it's going to be something that you don't want to miss out on.
59:38
It's, it's, and I would also add on top of this. I, and I think Haps would also be on with this as well, is that we are, and I know
59:49
Haps would be on with this. We are sold out because we're biblical. We're sold out on the 1689 in the way of, of saying like, we believe in the new covenant being mediated and instituted and, uh, through the ministry of Christ.
01:00:04
Right. And so we are, we are, we love our brothers in Christ.
01:00:10
I would say that those things started in the garden. However, we are ready and willing. We are, we're your huckleberries.
01:00:16
We're, we're ready to debate anybody on this topic. Any Presbyterians out there feeling froggy, we say, jump, jump, sucka, jump.
01:00:26
Yeah. We're ready to have these conversations. We live in Tennessee.
01:00:32
We frog geek out here. That's right. That's right. I'm just kidding.
01:00:38
Yeah. And, and again, we, again, we love our Presbyterian brothers. We love our, you know, assemblies of God brothers and stuff like that, but we just think we're right.
01:00:46
And, uh, you know, like, you know, like if you say to me, knock this chip off my shoulder,
01:00:54
I'm going to knock it off. Okay. And with this book, we're hoping to answer a lot of questions.
01:00:59
And with this book, if you read it, you'll be able to have a defense for any cult.
01:01:05
Like this thing is going to be heated. It's going to answer a lot of questions.
01:01:11
And it's all relying on God's new covenant and the way that those things came about.
01:01:17
And that is, is reformed Baptist theology, 1689
01:01:22
Federalist. And I heard that, uh, you know, uh, maybe anointing oil might be flowing out of it.
01:01:30
You know, so. I'm going to keep some anointing oil on my pulpit. Okay. I mean,
01:01:35
I might be the only reformed Baptist pastor that does that, but there is anointing oil on my pulpit.
01:01:41
It's got like a little hyssop plant in the pulpit that you're just ready to start. I made it myself. Oh, you make it yourself.
01:01:47
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Is it beard oil? No, but we make that ourselves too. Come on now.
01:01:54
I do. I got, I got big old Mason jars in there full of beard oil. Yeah. All right.
01:02:02
Well, I guess we'll close it out. All right, guys. All right.
01:02:07
Any last words? All right. Hallelujah.