Are Calvinists Too Critical?

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Are discernment ministries a good thing, or are people being too critical online? That's what we're going to talk about today on Conversations with a Calvinist, which begins right now.

00:28

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

00:30

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist, and I am joined today, I'm excited to be joined today by the one, the only, the happy Calvinist, Claude Ramsey.

00:40

Claude, how are you doing today, my friend? I'm doing good, sir.

00:44

I'm doing good.

00:45

I'm super excited to have you, and I do want to introduce you to my audience, for anyone who does not know Claude.

00:51

Claude is, as I said, he is known as the happy Calvinist.

00:56

He is the host of the Here I Stand Theology Podcast, and he is a member, along with me, of the Truth in Love Podcasting Network.

01:06

He's also the pastor of Reformata Baptist Church, and on a personal note, and I'm not even sure you know this, Claude, I was actually introduced to you when I was doing my research for the book, The Dorian Principle, by our mutual friend, Conley Owens.

01:24

You had him on.

01:25

I appreciated the work that you did in that interview, and you helped me, so I want to tell you, first of all, I appreciate your ministry.

01:31

I appreciate your podcast, and it has been a blessing to me, so thank you.

01:35

Thank the Lord.

01:37

Amen.

01:37

Amen.

01:38

Well, I want to begin today by kind of giving an overview of what we're going to do.

01:42

The first thing I'm going to do, I have a little surprise for Claude, and we're going to do that first, then we're going to move into the craziest thing this week, then we're going to play a little game, and then we're going to actually get to the meat of the program, and the meat of today's program is the segment that I've entitled Discerning the Discerners.

01:58

We're going to be asking the questions, are discernment ministries a good thing, and both Claude and I have practiced in our being discernment ministries in a sense because both of us have critiqued videos on our respective podcasts, and so today we're going to talk about what goes into that, why it's important, why we both think that it's necessary, and why we think some people may cross the line in regard to discernment ministries, so we're going to be talking about that, but the surprise that I have for you, Claude, is that it has to do with the academy, so you are a recent student at Sovereign Grace Academy, is that correct? Yes, sir.

02:42

And I have a question.

02:43

Did you enjoy your experience? I absolutely enjoyed it.

02:47

It was thoroughly educational, and that in itself made it enjoyable to me.

02:57

Wonderful, wonderful.

02:57

Well, for those who don't know what we're talking about, our church offers a free Bible academy.

03:05

It is a two-year program where a person can get ministry training, and Claude, of course, is already a pastor, already a wonderfully knowledgeable man, but he contacted me when he heard about it and asked if he could sit in on a class, and he did.

03:18

He sat in online in one of our classes, and he did the work for the class, so what I have today, Claude, is I wanted to share with you.

03:25

I actually have, one, your graded final exam, so you got an A-plus on your final exam.

03:34

Praise the Lord.

03:35

And an almost perfect score.

03:38

It was great.

03:39

You did a great job, and I'm going to send you this in an envelope, but I'm also going to send you your first Sovereign Grace Academy certificate, so this has got your name on it.

03:52

Each class that we do, we have eight core subjects, and Claude did Survey of Church History, which is our HIS 104 class, and did all the work.

04:00

He did all the keeping of the notes.

04:02

He did all of the attendance in the class online, and so you'll be receiving this certificate in the mail as soon as we get off the line today.

04:09

I'll be getting your address from you so that I can send that to you, and you'll have it, so congratulations, and thank you for taking the class.

04:18

Thank you, brother.

04:18

Thank you for putting in the time and the work that you do for that.

04:22

So, on my notes, did you not count off against, or could you read my notes? This is the first time that I've ever taken handwritten notes on an iPad.

04:33

Well, no, the notes were fine, the ones that you sent me that I could look at.

04:38

I mean, you'd be surprised some of the notes that I get, so no, they were fine.

04:43

I do have a question for you, though.

04:44

When you preach, do you preach from a typed manuscript or handwritten manuscript? Typed.

04:51

Yeah, me too.

04:53

Well, you've probably seen some of the stuff I posted.

04:55

I have graphics and stuff that I bring in the pulpit, but I don't know how guys do it from handwritten.

05:01

John MacArthur preaches from a handwritten manuscript, and I just don't.

05:06

I think Steve Lawson does too, don't he? You can see him turning those little pages, but after just writing a few lines, as old as the older that I get, my handwriting gets worse with every line.

05:20

No, I get that.

05:21

I get that.

05:23

So, I'm thankful that you were a part of the class.

05:25

I'm thankful that you did.

05:27

Oh, and getting back to your handwriting, you wrote your essay, which was part of your part of the final exam.

05:33

The essay was really good.

05:34

I wanted to mention something about it.

05:35

Let me pull it back out here, because yours was on the Great Ejection, which was an interesting choice.

05:47

Everybody got to choose a section of history and make comments on it, and I thought it was just great.

05:53

You referenced Richard Baxter and Thomas Manton and several other people.

05:58

So, this was really good.

05:59

Like I said, thank you so much for putting in the work.

06:02

It was a very good essay, and we appreciate you being a part of the Academy.

06:07

Thank you for letting me.

06:08

When's the next class going to be? I haven't got the dates set yet, because you know I'm going to be gone to the conference.

06:15

I'm actually going to see you.

06:16

You're going to be preaching at an upcoming conference.

06:18

In fact, I should probably mention that Claude is going to be one of the speakers.

06:22

He's going to be speaking beside James White, which is awesome, and he's going to be speaking at the Open Air Theology Conference, which is called From Shadow to Substance, and it's February the 16th through the 18th in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

06:38

So, Claude is going to be one of the featured speakers there.

06:41

So, come see Claude at the conference and see me.

06:44

I'll have a table set up there, and there's also, since I mentioned earlier, we're both part of the Truth and Love Podcast Network.

06:51

They're having a conference in April, so we'll have more information about that as time comes available.

06:59

But yeah, that's big time.

07:00

Are you excited to be preaching alongside? I'll be honest.

07:06

I mean, it's the providence of God.

07:09

It's like Jeff has said, if anybody's not followed Open Air Theology, I'd encourage you to go over and check out Open Air Theology on YouTube, but several of the preachers are just folks Jeff, like he said, he listens to.

07:25

Nobody knows us.

07:27

We're not in it for a platform or for a name or anything like that, but I mean, I feel like I am.

07:36

I quit being on there with James White.

07:39

I feel like I'm an infant and he's megamind.

07:43

Well, I think most of us kind of feel that way when we are around him.

07:48

And yeah, that's it.

07:49

So, if you get a chance and you're interested and you're near the Tullahoma, Tennessee area, I'm sure they still have some seats available, and we'd love to have you come out and hear Claude preach and hear Dr.

08:01

James White debate and several of the other preachers as well.

08:03

I got one of the other guys reached out to me this week as well, saying he looked forward to seeing me at the conference.

08:09

So excited, excited, excited.

08:11

All right.

08:12

So I have, I want to move on to the next part of today's show, and that is that we have a giveaway that we, I don't want to forget about this and I don't want this to be relegated to the end of the show.

08:23

We are going to be, start doing more giveaways on the show because I've actually had people write in to make donations and want to donate to the show.

08:31

And so today's program is going to be sponsored by one of our listeners.

08:35

She asked to remain anonymous, so I'll leave it at that, but has purchased a couple of books.

08:40

And the two books that we're going to be giving away today go along with our theme because our theme is discerning discerners and being able to discern the truth.

08:48

So we're going to be looking at 10 indictments against the modern church.

08:51

This is by Paul Washer.

08:53

And we're going to be giving away five things every Christian needs to grow by Dr.

08:58

R.C.

08:58

Sproul.

08:59

So that is, that's the two books that you will get today, and here's how you can receive them.

09:06

If you will go on to our YouTube page, if you're not watching this on YouTube, if you're listening to the podcast, just go to calvinispodcast.com.

09:13

It takes you right to the YouTube page.

09:15

Go down to the comments and put in my favorite pastor is, and you get entered in.

09:22

Obviously tell us who it is.

09:23

Tell us who your favorite pastor is in the comments.

09:26

You won't get entered in if you just go there and say something or ask a question.

09:29

You have to say my favorite pastor is, whoever it is, and then you will be entered in.

09:34

And next week I'm going to have Uncle Rich on the show, and Uncle Rich will be with me to draw the name of the winner, and we will send these to you absolutely free.

09:43

So keep that in mind.

09:44

We want that to, we want to bless you and make that part of the show.

09:49

So again, thank you for the listener who is donating those books.

09:52

We appreciate it.

09:53

All right, so moving now, I want to, I want to get into what we are calling the craziest thing this week.

10:05

Craziest thing this week is a segment which I just began, and I want to, I want to thank Claude for something else.

10:10

When I was on his program, he introduced me to a program.

10:13

The program is called StreamYard, and that is now my podcasting platform when I do interviews, and it has made my show better and made it easier for me to include little video clips and things like that.

10:26

So Claude, thanks for introducing me to, to that.

10:28

I appreciate it.

10:29

Absolutely.

10:30

All right, so here's the craziest thing I've seen this week.

10:34

The Laborers podcast, which is the Truth and Love Ministry, when they get together they did an, they did a study of angels, and here's the craziest thing I've seen this week.

10:51

And if you're, and if you're listening to this and you're not seeing this, you need to click over and see what this is.

10:56

This is Claude, Claude the Cherub, Claude the Cherub.

11:00

All right.

11:01

You didn't expect that, did you? No, I didn't.

11:07

All right, so that wasn't the real thing.

11:09

That was just, that was something I thought you'd get a kick out of.

11:13

So, so let me, let me, let me see if I can pull that conversation up real quick.

11:18

So that was spurred by Matt Breeding.

11:21

Matt Breeding's one of the, one of the guys on the Laborers podcast.

11:25

And he, he had actually asked the guys about the topic being angelology.

11:32

And he said, is anybody going to mention one of the, the chubby naked angels? Tell us what the chubby naked angels were.

11:39

And so I decided I'd just send them something and I'll be dad blame if they didn't use it against me and you didn't use it against me.

11:46

Well, I hope, I hope you're not offended because I thought it was hilarious.

11:52

All right.

11:52

So here's the real craziest thing this week.

11:54

This is a one minute video clip from preacher, Greg Locke.

11:59

You're familiar with Greg Locke? Yes, sir.

12:01

Have you done anything with him on your show? Have you responded to any of his stuff? I have not as of yet.

12:07

I think at some point this year, I'm likely going to.

12:11

Yeah.

12:11

I've, I've responded to one of his things on witches that he did.

12:15

I also made a short video about witches and Tyler Noe, who is part of our network.

12:20

He is actually, he contacted me recently because he was getting into the fray with some of the followers of Greg Locke.

12:25

So, um, I'm not here to bash anybody.

12:28

I'm just here to point things out.

12:30

I'm going to play this one minute clip where he talks about his sermon and I want you to hear it because I don't know if you've heard this yet.

12:36

And I want you to just give me your initial thoughts as a pastor.

12:39

If you heard a pastor say this, what would you think? I didn't know.

12:42

That's the one where my wife went.

12:44

So there we go.

12:45

So we, we as a, we as a face in one today, amen, was a fight in one today.

12:48

So we'll see what the Lord gives us.

12:50

One thing I like about this church is we don't worry about order of service anymore.

12:54

Okay.

12:55

We don't worry about order.

12:56

It ain't no, you know, protocol.

12:58

It's just constant altar call.

13:01

So when the Lord moves or the devil gets riled up, we'll just go with it and we'll just trust what the Lord has.

13:07

So let's just pray.

13:09

And I'm really just going to settle in on one particular area of this text, but I'll have to read a few of the verses in the immediate context to get where I want to go.

13:19

And I really just, I really want to start in chapter 60 and work my way backwards.

13:24

But if it's okay with you, I'm just going to kind of make this up as we go, as the Holy spirit leads me, right? I'm done.

13:29

Uh, very purposefully did not come up here with any principles or any three points in a poem.

13:34

Not that I normally have that, but I just, I just been reading these chapters and I just have a few things on my heart that I want to share with you because I believe it is perfectly in step with where we are right now in the midst of massive revival.

13:54

All right.

13:54

So what are your, just initial, again, he didn't say anything super crazy, but I picked up on a couple of things that got my attention and I wanted to hear your thoughts.

14:00

What are your thoughts? So the first thing that really caught my attention, what he said was, um, just kind of making this up as I go, going to depend on the Holy spirit.

14:13

Sadly, sadly, um, that is a mindset that is far too often adopted by many.

14:22

Uh, and I'll, I'll, I'll say young preachers nowadays, again, cause I'm getting old so I can refer to people as young people.

14:29

But I think in what it reminded me of immediately was a statement by Bill Johnson, real Johnson said this, I refuse to read the Bible just so that I can have something to teach.

14:43

That's for some reason that's, that just spurred that memory of that statement to me.

14:49

And it's kind of a, it's really kind of an arrogant thing to say, and it really ought to make it the listeners, their ears perk up and say, well, if he's making this up as it goes, how can I put stock in it? Yeah.

15:04

Yeah.

15:05

And, and it's, it's interesting when he said we don't have protocol, we have constant altar call that, that, that's a, that's a soundbite in and of itself.

15:14

And it made me kind of think, you know, is there anything wrong with a church service having order and liturgy? I think we're, I think we're the first time in history where, where churches that have a liturgy, churches that have an order are actually looked down upon.

15:33

They're looked down as being unspiritual because they have planned the service.

15:38

When we think about the way that God does everything is through a divine plan.

15:43

And there's, you know, this idea that everything has to be done in spontaneity is I think, so speak to that if you would.

15:52

I would say to that point that even the spontaneity, the expectation of spontaneity becomes a norm itself.

16:01

Oh, and that's a good point.

16:04

Strangely enough, it really and truly does.

16:07

Now again, there's a, I think there's a balance to be struck.

16:10

I think there's a, a discipline that has to be applied by the body when it gathers that we don't, that we always don't seek the over the top emotional experience, nor should we accept the underwhelming moments of some of the dead presentation that's given in some places.

16:39

Absolutely.

16:40

Now that, that, that raises a question.

16:42

How often, how often are you prepared when you go into the pulpit and you feel the urge five minutes before the service to make a change and you change your sermon completely? Has that, has that ever happened to you? And how often does it happen? It has happened, yes, but it is not a regular occurrence.

17:02

Particularly, I mean, I would say particularly in the past seven to eight years more so than in the past previous, because the spiritual discipline of preparation has become more prevalent in my spiritual discipline and practice.

17:22

So when it, when it does happen, it's, it's still okay as long as I am staying within the guardrails of the scripture, right? And I'm not, I'm not placing the emphasis of the spontaneity or the spontaneous moment, extemporaneous moment.

17:46

I'm not placing that above any other studied moment.

17:52

Sure.

17:53

Yeah, absolutely.

17:55

When we, before we move on, because we're going to play a game next, I don't want to, I don't want to move right from the serious to the game, but, but, but I do have one more in regard to that.

18:03

I, I, I've never asked you this question and I'm just curious, how long have you been in preaching ministry? How long have you been preaching the word? I'm going to use country language here.

18:15

So I surrendered my call to preach when I was 17 years old.

18:20

Okay.

18:20

So, and my first opportunity to preach, I grew up at Oak Street Baptist Church in Maryville.

18:27

I didn't, my first opportunity to preach wasn't in a Baptist church.

18:31

It was in a, it was in a little Methodist church just up the road, right? We've got the Methodist colors in the background here.

18:38

It was, it was at Bungalow United Methodist Church.

18:41

My brother-in-law was pastor.

18:43

He gave me an opportunity, but I still, I can still to this day, I mean, I can feel the index cards in my hand and I can, you know, I can, I can remember the, you know, the, which it's my preaching still very simple, but it's just the simplistic notes that I had on the index cards at that time.

19:04

I mean, it's, it's a, it's a wonderful blessing to have that still fresh in my mind, because I think that it's important that all preachers of the gospel understand that you're not where you are because you just decided to jump into this as a vocation, but you're there because the Lord called you and the Lord placed you.

19:31

Amen.

19:32

Amen.

19:33

17 years old.

19:33

Sorry, but I hate to ask because I don't know.

19:36

How old are you now? I am 49.

19:39

Okay.

19:39

So that's 30 years.

19:41

That's amazing.

19:42

Well, praise the Lord.

19:44

Well, may the Lord continue to bless you with long life and with a sustained ministry.

19:50

And I mean that from the bottom of my heart, I'm very thankful for you.

19:53

So, all right, brother, well, we're going to move on now to a, um, uh, a sec, a segment that I began last week with my wife and this segment is called battle of the decades, or would you rather, and you get to make a choice, Claude Ramsey, you get to make a choice to play a game.

20:13

You're either going to play a trivia game where I ask you a trivia question from the decade of your choice, or you get to choose from two of these cards, which are the, would you rather cards? And then you have to tell us based upon the choice of those two cards, which you would rather do.

20:32

And you have to tell us why this tells us a little bit more about you.

20:35

And I don't know if you saw last week when I had Jennifer on the program, the battle of the decades cards are much harder than they should be.

20:43

Not to make that, not to make that, uh, uh, make you make your choice, but you can choose battle of the decades or you can choose, would you rather, uh, which one would you like to do? Yes.

20:55

You want to do both? Yes.

20:56

Oh, okay.

20:57

All right.

20:57

Give me the Savvy Ballesteros question.

21:03

You did.

21:04

All right.

21:05

Well, we'll start with battle of the decades then.

21:07

Uh, what is your, what is your favorite decade between the eighties and the 2010s, eighties, nineties, two thousands or 2010s has to be the eighties, the eighties.

21:17

All right.

21:18

I'm going to take one card out.

21:19

We're going to see what you get on the eighties in the eighties, the 1985 benefit concert, live aid raised money to help feed people in what famine hit nation Africa.

21:35

We are the world.

21:36

It, well, it was, it was, it was a country in Africa.

21:39

So it was, it, it, it was, uh, yep.

21:43

It's specifically you're right.

21:44

It's in Africa, but it's specifically a country in Africa.

21:47

Can you think of what it is? Okay.

21:54

Ethiopia, Ethiopia.

21:56

All right.

21:57

Well, since we have this here, I'm going to ask you one question from, from, from, for the kids, this will be for the kids.

22:03

This is 2010s.

22:05

What was the name given to the series of anti-government protests and rebellions that spread across much of the Arab world in the early 2010s? I wouldn't get it either, but I know it because I can see the card, but the protests protests that happened in Arabia, um, the Arab world in the early 2010s, I don't have any idea.

22:27

The Arab spring, the Arab spring that, yeah, these cards are difficult.

22:30

These are not super easy.

22:32

All right, well, let's do, let's do a, would you rather? All right.

22:36

So you get to pick a color, pick red or blue, red.

22:39

All right.

22:40

You're going to pick red.

22:41

Okay.

22:41

Uh, taking two cards at random here.

22:44

All right.

22:45

Would you rather have to hum every time you think so, like every time you think, or have a snake in your toilet? Hmm.

23:00

See, you just, see, and by the way, this is actually the title of this game is which one that's the card game.

23:07

I just call it.

23:08

Would you rather we play it with our kids at home? Would you rather hum every time you think, or have a snake in your toilet and tell us why I would definitely rather home because I hate snakes.

23:19

Amen.

23:20

Testify.

23:21

I don't want a live one.

23:22

I don't want a dead one.

23:23

I don't even like to see pictures of them.

23:27

I had one of our, one of our church members sent me a picture the other day.

23:30

It was of a dead diamondback rattlesnake that had had its head cut off.

23:36

Well, the tail was still moving and it moved near the head and the head struck, even though the head had been cut off, it struck itself.

23:45

So it struck its tail and the tail started moving.

23:48

And I thought that was the most scariest thing I've ever seen in my life because a dead head cut off snake still had the ability to bite.

23:56

And it bit itself and it could feel it.

23:58

And it was the wildest thing I've ever seen.

23:59

And it was the worst because I hate snakes too.

24:02

Holy cow.

24:05

This is all right, brother.

24:07

So, uh, thank you for playing my games.

24:09

I played your game.

24:10

We did, uh, we did, would you rather, you know, or I'm sorry, we did a good, bad, or, um, uh, you big dummy, you big dummy.

24:18

That was a, that was a fun game.

24:20

And I want to retract one of my answers.

24:23

You asked me on the show, you said what, you know, rather, uh, here I stand or CWAC.

24:28

And I said, CWAC.

24:29

And the only reason I said CWAC was because like five minutes before that you told me that when it came to arm wrestling, I should always come out strong.

24:37

And so when you asked me, I was like, well, maybe he's asking me to come out strong, but to be honest with you, I endorse your show a hundred percent.

24:45

And I, if anybody saw that and thought, well, what a, what an arrogant guy he is.

24:48

No, I, I was really playing into the hand that I thought you were, you know, the whole arm wrestling thing.

24:53

So just to be clear, maybe we should take a snapshot.

24:59

I'll point at you and you can point at me here.

25:02

Listen to this guy.

25:03

Other way.

25:04

Other way.

25:06

Your other way.

25:07

Is that right? Is that, is that the way? Okay.

25:10

All right.

25:12

I'll mine.

25:12

It's different.

25:13

I'm fine.

25:13

It's backwards.

25:14

Okay.

25:15

All right, brother.

25:16

Well, we're going to now move into the actual, the, the meat and body of the show, probably the things people actually tuned in for.

25:23

And that is to hear us to talk, hear us talk about discerning the discerners.

25:27

And, um, I want to begin, I have some questions that I wrote down.

25:31

I gave you beforehand.

25:32

So that way we'd kind of know the direction that we're headed.

25:34

But if you have anything, Claude, that you want to, that you want to address as we start going through these, or you want to ask me something or whatever, just, just chime right in because, uh, this is a conversation, right? Conversations with a Calvinist.

25:47

So it's meant to go whatever direction the Lord leads.

25:50

So Claude, you are the happy Calvinist.

25:53

And I forgot to ask you, how'd you get that name? It's just self-giving.

25:59

It might be like your Calvinist, right? You just got to think of something.

26:04

That's right.

26:04

Well, I love it.

26:05

And I think it's true.

26:06

You're always smiling and you're probably the most encouraging, uh, uh, pastor that I know, as far as you just say such kind things.

26:14

And you're very, you're always, you always seem to be in a pleasant, uh, disposition.

26:18

I'm sure that's not true.

26:19

I'm sure you get upset sometimes, but, uh, but, but every time I talk to you, you're so pleasant.

26:23

So, uh, seeing that big, happy smile is, is good.

26:26

So you're the happy Calvinist.

26:27

Why do you think that Calvinists have a reputation for being stodgy and mean in their disposition? And do you think it's deserved? All right.

26:37

So, so I have, I have given careful consideration to each of these questions here.

26:43

And, uh, I didn't think of this part of the answer till earlier when I was sitting over sweating, waiting on you to send me the link for the show.

26:51

But, uh, I would have to say that, uh, I think Calvinists do have a, uh, reputation for being stodgy and mean in their disposition for the same reason that the Presbyterian has for assuming that his theology is, is better than everybody else's, right? It's kind of a, uh, elevation of our own knowledge and our own self-assessment, right? Which is really self-righteousness.

27:21

I really, and truly, honestly think that's the case.

27:24

And I would say because I'd say, because there's, I think in my estimation, there's a disconnect in many of our reform brethren's minds, many, many Calvinist minds.

27:37

There's a disconnect between orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

27:41

Now.

27:42

Yeah.

27:42

I mean, again, and that sounds Calvinistic, doesn't it? Using those big words.

27:47

And I just practiced those so I could say them minus the horrible country accent that I have.

27:53

I love it.

27:54

I love it.

27:54

But orthodoxy is right.

27:57

Right.

27:57

Thinking right.

27:58

Right.

27:59

Right.

27:59

Thinking orthopraxy is right.

28:01

Practice.

28:02

And I think what happens in, with a lot of our Calvinist brothers and sisters is that their heart and their mind ain't plugged in at the same time.

28:12

It's always one or the other.

28:14

And largely, uh, it's usually the mind that's plugged in and the heart that gets unplugged because the focus goes to that.

28:23

But I mean, I mean, I think about Lloyd-Jones, right? We think about fiery, passionate preaching.

28:30

Lloyd-Jones said preaching is logic on fire, right? And I would say this, that this is maybe one of the controversial statements.

28:40

I would say that I think that there's a lot of Calvinists that just need a good old feeling of the Holy Spirit to upset their intellectual apple cart.

28:49

I mean, they just need to, to, to, we're driven to our knees by our realization and understanding total depravity.

28:56

But we tend to stop there when really, when we go to our knees and we recognize our depravity.

29:03

I mean, we look to the Holy One and we, we, we pride ourselves in knowing the scriptures and who God is.

29:09

How can we not just be driven to our knees, understanding our depravity, but to also lift up our hands and to praise God that we ain't number one already in hell, but that he set his love on us.

29:22

I mean, it is amazing.

29:24

So I think, I think it, it is deserved.

29:28

And I think that's why, because there's that disconnect in that lack of balance and balance is a hard thing.

29:35

Amen.

29:36

Amen.

29:36

No, indeed.

29:39

Indeed.

29:40

Well, I want to go to the second question.

29:43

This is a great answer by the way.

29:45

And I think especially the idea of pride playing a part.

29:51

Before I go to the second question, I just want to tell a quick, quick, quick little anecdote to go along with that.

29:55

There was a man when I first the first time I ever went to a Ligonier pastors conference, this was back in 2005, I think 2005, 2006.

30:05

I was in Lake Mary, Florida, and there was a man who was there and he introduced himself to me and we started talking.

30:12

And we got to talking about reformed theology and I had been reformed for five whole minutes.

30:16

I mean, I had been, I had been a Calvinist for, you know, for, for just at that point, just a couple of maybe a year or so.

30:24

It was very, very short.

30:26

And he and I got to talking and he, and he was like, I just can't believe that people don't see this in the scriptures.

30:32

I can't believe people just, you know, they, they look at the scripture.

30:34

And I said to him, I said, yeah, I said, it's, it is, it is, you know, it's there.

30:39

Obviously I believe it.

30:40

I said, how long have you been a Calvinist? He's like six months.

30:43

I was like, I was like, how long have you been a Christian? Well, several years.

30:48

Okay.

30:48

So you were a Christian for all those years and you didn't see it and you didn't recognize it.

30:52

And now you, you, everybody else is stupid, but you.

30:56

And so I think, yeah, so that's a, God, God reveals things through his word and we, we ought not be prideful about it.

31:06

That's right.

31:07

We need to, we need to remember that we all grow at different paces.

31:11

Absolutely.

31:12

Sanctification doesn't happen as fast as others.

31:15

Yeah, no, absolutely.

31:18

You have played and responded to false teachers on your show and I've seen it.

31:24

I've been edified by it.

31:25

I can't remember how many I've seen, but I know there's one I want to see.

31:29

Cause you, you posted last night, your year end, your year end stats, which was great.

31:35

I saw.

31:36

Yeah.

31:36

And it was great.

31:37

Yeah.

31:37

Your metrics.

31:38

And I, I saw that one of your top shows was Priscilla Shriver, Shriver.

31:43

I'm not sure if I'm saying that right.

31:45

I want to see that one because I actually had somebody asked me about her and I don't know anything much about her.

31:52

And so that's interesting that you did.

31:54

So that's going to be an instructional thing for me.

31:56

What do you, do you know whose daughter she is? No, I, I, all I know is that I know that I've seen her on some things, but I've never listened more than a minute.

32:06

So I can't give any, you know, any feedback.

32:09

Are you ready for this? Whose, whose daughter she is? Is she Jessie Duplantis's daughter? Cause if she's Jessie Duplantis's daughter, that'd be awesome.

32:15

Tony Evans.

32:17

Oh, okay.

32:18

Yep.

32:19

And, and he was, he was one, do you know who Tony Evans is? Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.

32:24

He was one, uh, when I was, uh, my first senior year in high school, the year that I was called to preach, I wanted so bad to go to the Southern Baptist convention because it was a Southern Baptist church we were at.

32:40

And, uh, so I decided in my immense wisdom that I would just skip semester exams and go to the pastor's conference.

32:48

I had to go back a semester, but nevertheless, I got, uh, I heard him preach and Adrian Rogers preach that year.

32:56

And, um, I mean, as far as eloquence, I mean, there's, there's not many compares to Tony Evans eloquence.

33:03

He's, he's a fantastic speaker and communicator, but his theology does step a little bit beyond orthodoxy even now.

33:13

And looking back on it, you can see at the end too.

33:17

Yeah.

33:17

Well, that's interesting.

33:18

Yeah.

33:19

I didn't know that connection.

33:20

And so I do want to recommend if anybody has a, uh, if anybody wants to know more about her, go over to, uh, and how can people find your program? Uh, tell us the website again to get to here.

33:30

I stand.

33:31

How did, what's the best way for people to go find something if they're looking for that show? Just head over to the YouTubes.

33:36

Yeah.

33:37

Go to here.

33:37

I stand theology podcast.

33:39

That's it.

33:39

Just, just go to your YouTube page.

33:41

Okay.

33:41

Great.

33:41

Great.

33:43

All right.

33:43

So getting back to the, the, the question, um, as I said, I've been edified by you doing this and some would say that you and I are unloving because we point out the errors in some other people's teachings.

33:59

And, and why do you think that we're not being unloving? Why do you think it's right that what we're doing? Cause you wouldn't do it if you thought it was wrong.

34:06

I assume you wouldn't, you wouldn't be making YouTube videos pointing out theological errors.

34:12

If you thought that was sinful or if you thought you were doing something that would displease the Lord.

34:16

Right.

34:17

So why are you, why do you think it's right? Why are, why do you do this? All right.

34:22

So, um, can I, can I just use, uh, not, uh, I'm not going to use vulgar language, but I want to use a very, uh, straightforward, plain analogy.

34:34

Is that okay? Sure.

34:35

Please.

34:36

You can edit it out if you need to.

34:38

But I, honestly, honestly, I would say number one, it's, it's one of the most loving things that we can do not pointing out pastor's errors, but as Christians to be defenders of the faith.

34:52

So it's a, it's the, the angle of the approach.

34:55

It's not because I don't like a certain preacher style or, you know, the way they dress or so on and so forth, but it's, it, it always should come down to the scripture itself.

35:07

And our primary aim and our primary goal as Christian men and women, our primary love ought to be directed number one to the Lord.

35:16

So if like with a husband and wife, if somebody says something about your wife, if somebody says something about my wife, now this ain't going to sound the most spiritual thing, but depending on the level that they say, they might just get busted in the mouth.

35:30

And I believe that as Christians, because of the great love that our Lord has for us, that we ought to staunchly defend the faith.

35:39

Now, certainly we need to do it in love.

35:41

We need to do it with patience.

35:42

We need to do it with compassion, but there are times like Calvin said, right? The pastor has two voices, one's to call the sheep and one's to fend off the wolves.

35:53

So I would say our, our first love ought to be directed to the Lord and second to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

36:00

And here's, here's the application for this.

36:03

So let's say, would it be, if we played a game, is this loving or unloving? It would be the most unloving thing and unkind thing for us, for me to do, Keith, if I was to sit by and to watch you eat a plate full of poop, because somebody told you it was ice cream and chocolate pudding.

36:23

Because man, who don't like ice cream and chocolate pudding? If you've never tried it together, you should.

36:29

It is delicious.

36:30

I assure you.

36:32

But right when in reality, you've been duped into believing a lie.

36:36

Now, considering that, what is happening? And that's a term that I use, because what comes out of a lot of these false teachers is nothing but sewage.

36:46

It's not fit for people to listen to.

36:48

It's not fit for them to buy the books, to support their ministry, so on and so forth.

36:55

So it's the right thing, first and foremost, as Christian men and women.

37:01

It's right for us to be attentive and to be alert to what's being spoken from pulpits, whether they be our local pulpit or they be a big platform like most of these popular TV preachers have, right? Because what they do is they abuse and they misrepresent the word of God, and they do do so intentionally.

37:24

And I would go to the mat on this, because some people will say they'll defend them and they'll say, oh, surely they're not meaning this.

37:35

Well, for 20 years they've been teaching these things, and they're raising up a whole generation of little baby goats that's following right behind them and propagating the same garbage.

37:47

So local ministers, first and foremost, for the listeners, your listeners, first and foremost, as a Christian, as a member of the local church, you, as a local member of local church, should be paying attention to what's being taught, and you should be testing it according to the scriptures, and you should have the ability to go to your pastor and to say, pastor, you said this today.

38:15

Can we sit down for just a little while and walk through the text? Can you explain to me how that you came to this conclusion, right? And there are times there are times when even as a pastor that we have to say, you know what, that's a good point.

38:33

And then, I mean, there's been times where the following Sunday or two Sundays later when I've, you know, when I've really worked through something that people have had challenged, that I'll stand up in front of the congregation, and I will repent, and I'll apologize, and I will communicate why I was wrong in saying, in making a statement, like I said.

38:55

So the local minister should be held accountable, and then the big platform preachers should be held just as accountable.

39:03

Now, their platform is very public, so guess what? They're open to public rebuke.

39:10

Yeah, yeah, and that's a good point.

39:12

What you just said is, because I've had people give me hard time.

39:16

I've mentioned Joyce Meyer on the program.

39:20

I've mentioned, you know, and especially when I mentioned her, got a lot of people.

39:24

One woman even said I was a bully because I said something about her.

39:28

She's a woman, so I'm a bully because I said something about her.

39:32

And I said, but what she has said is public.

39:36

It's not as if she said it in inside of a local church where I could go into a local church and deal with her privately.

39:43

She has said this on a national, international platform that has to be considered.

39:49

Yeah, yeah.

39:51

So, and going back, you said, you know, in regard to the public nature of it and everything, you said that people can come to you and say, how did you come to your conclusion? I love that you said that, and I just want to bring out because that's a question that we, my brother Mike, who's one of our elders here.

40:17

He's not my physical brother.

40:18

My brother, brother Mike Collier is one of our elders, and that is often a question that he and I will ask one another is, you know, brother, how did you come to that conclusion? And even if we don't necessarily agree, as long as they have, you know, exegeted the text and come to their conclusion based upon that exegesis, we might not always agree with the conclusion, but at least we understand how they got from point A to point B.

40:43

That's right.

40:43

Where, where, where some, some, you know, sometimes you listen to these guys preach online and there's no, they didn't, they didn't come to that conclusion through exegesis.

40:54

They didn't come to that conclusion through critical thinking or spiritually seeking the Lord.

40:58

They came to that conclusion because it preached good.

41:00

That's exactly right.

41:02

That's exactly right.

41:04

I remember Steve Camp.

41:07

Do you know who Steve Camp is? Yep.

41:10

Christian singer.

41:10

I grew up, he's an early contemporary Christian.

41:13

Oh yeah.

41:14

Well, he sang, he, he sang at our church years ago.

41:17

And one of the things he said, cause he preached as well.

41:21

One of the things that he said was he said that he knew a pastor one time who said, I don't think my people ought to challenge what I say.

41:29

I've been to school.

41:29

I know what I'm talking about.

41:31

And I tell you that that is such a terrible, I'm not saying that's what Steve said.

41:36

He said, he told me about a pastor he knew.

41:38

And I remember thinking, what a man to tell the people of God, you have no right to question what I say.

41:44

I've been to school.

41:45

That's so scary.

41:47

Yeah.

41:48

All right.

41:49

So moving to the next question, what are some of the most common forms of errors that you have been willing to address? And are there particular errors that you focus on specifically? So what, what's your wheelhouse, I guess, is that what that question is? All right.

42:06

So that's a good question.

42:09

So we'll start with the first part and then I can, I'll move to the second part on that.

42:15

So I would say this, what are some common or the most common forms of errors that I've been willing to address? Probably primarily it's the chief doctrines, right? Christology, right? Pneumatology, the person and work of the spirit, soteriology, how salvation is accomplished.

42:40

So those primary doctrines, again, are always, should always be in, to me are always in my purview right there.

42:51

That's always what I'm scoping in on because there's always little nuances and little ticks that, you know, people do the course we don't like, like me rubbing my mustache, right? That might be one of those things, but I have a mustache and I have a beard, so I will rub it.

43:12

I heard, I heard an IFB preacher one time and he, every time he would say something, he would go, huh? So we're going to turn to the old Testament and we're going to see that David beat Goliath, huh? And he did it like 50 times and to the point that when my wife and I left that service that night, she went, she looked at me, goes, huh? Oh my.

43:39

So yeah, rubbing the mustache is nothing.

43:43

So, you know, I would say that the most common forms are just the primary doctrines because that's really, that's really the focus because that's where, that's what I'm looking at.

43:54

Now, one of the good things, if there is such a thing, it's a good thing about heresy is that it's cyclical.

44:04

I mean, it's like when you read the Old Testament, right? God created man, man sinned against God, God forgives man, the cycle goes on and on and on.

44:16

And with heresy for, I mean, and I'm going to use this term for somebody like me because I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, as they say, right? Sometimes I miss stuff, sometimes I don't get stuff.

44:28

I think about when April and I were young, you remember when the six cents came out, we went to the theater to see that.

44:36

And man, I thought that was one of the best movies.

44:38

So the incomes, the credits roll, everybody, us and our friends are getting up.

44:44

I'm sitting there staring at the screen and I'm still, I'm just going, I don't get it.

44:51

What's going on? April looks at me and she said, Bruce Willis was dead the whole time.

45:00

It's 20 year old spoiler, but there it is.

45:04

I mean, but the thing about heresy is it literally is cyclical and it is just continually recycled and repeated.

45:15

If you give yourself as a Christian to primarily the studied scriptures, but to church history, you'll see this and you'll see these heresies just come back again and again and again.

45:29

You'll see the heresies like Pelagianism or semi Pelagianism or modalism.

45:35

Folks, nobody knows what those words mean.

45:38

Nobody wants to hear what those words mean.

45:41

And sadly, not enough pastors and elders are willing to take the time and walk their people through what those words mean so that when those people that come to you, like they did about Joyce Meyer, they can, it's inevitable that they see clearly that that is not what the scriptures teach or ever have taught.

46:04

So yeah, long story short, common forms of error, just the primary doctrines.

46:09

That's what I focus on.

46:10

And as far as anything I focus on specifically, other than that, I mean, I'd like to say that, no, I'm, I'm unlike any other person.

46:22

I don't have a hobby horse.

46:23

The thing is that I really do try to discipline myself not to get on a hobby horse.

46:29

For example, would it be okay if I elaborated on this? Oh yeah, please, please, yes.

46:36

Unless, unless you're going to call me out because I'm not prepared for that.

46:41

I know what my, I know what my proclivities for hobby horses are.

46:45

So I try to fight that.

46:46

I know what you're talking about.

46:47

Exactly, exactly.

46:48

Fighting the proclivity to climb up on a hobby horse.

46:51

Right.

46:51

I mean, I think for me personally, and really, I think it's probably just human nature for, for any preacher, any preacher's hobby horse to be something that has affected him personally in his life and his family and his friends.

47:07

And really for me, if there was a hobby horse, it's, it's, uh, the charismatic movement, the word of faith movement, because I mean, it, it truly has, I mean, it is affected.

47:18

It's affected relationships.

47:20

It's reflected, it's affected friends.

47:23

It's affected from out of Baptist church.

47:26

I mean, it, it, it truly, it is a poison that permeates throughout Christendom.

47:35

But the thing is, like I said earlier, it's not anything new.

47:39

It's not anything new.

47:43

So, uh, so yeah, of course I would, I would admit probably charismaticism, but I'm learning as time goes to make distinctions because there are plenty of good charismatic Christians.

47:54

I mean, plenty of good charismatic Christians.

47:58

They're not over, you know, on this far, I don't know, I guess you'd call it the right-hand side or the left-hand side, whichever side you want to go to there.

48:06

But you know, they, uh, many of them are for the most part Orthodox, but those who go off and stray off into the word of faith practice.

48:17

I mean, John, big John from, uh, the labors podcast, he's a Pentecostal, but man, if you just sit one-on-one, hear him talk, by the way, that'd be a good episode for folks to watch.

48:29

And if you, I don't know if you've seen it yet, but we did an episode episode called continuationism and cessationism.

48:35

No, I didn't.

48:36

I didn't see that one.

48:37

I'd love to see that.

48:38

Yeah.

48:38

Yeah.

48:38

I didn't, uh, I intentionally didn't call it continuationism versus cessationism or vice versa.

48:44

I put the end there because if you hear him talk, I mean, there is, there is way more that we have in common than we do that, than that we differ on concerning the faith and particularly the primary doctrine.

48:58

So.

49:00

Well, that's awesome.

49:01

And it's awesome that you did that because, you know, when I don't know how much of the, um, the, the, the book for the class, I know we had two books with the small book that everybody had to read.

49:13

And then we had the optional book.

49:14

I don't know how much you got through the optional, but I was, I was thankful for Bruce Shelley's fairness to the charismatic movement.

49:23

And, and, you know, like I said, I think he did point out, you know, that while, while there are extremes and there certainly are heresies within it, that we're not saying that we're not saying that every charismatic person is, or every Pentecostal is, is by virtue of that unsaved.

49:41

Um, yeah.

49:43

So, um, the next question I had, and this one, this one may, uh, this one may be a little harder.

49:50

Um, it says, what should be our criteria for identifying someone in error? We all make errors, but we don't point out everything.

49:58

So what's the rule? And I know that's, that's kind of a hard question because if somebody asked me what the rule is, I know what I think I would say, but it's, it kind of moves a little bit, but tell me what your thoughts are.

50:11

I know you've had a chance to think about this.

50:12

So what were your, what were your thoughts on that? All right.

50:15

So for me, that may have been one of the easiest questions that you gave to me because my mind immediately goes to the scripture.

50:24

Is that right if I read? Oh, please, please.

50:25

Yeah.

50:26

So if you go to 2 Timothy chapter three, and you probably know where I'm going here, but 2 Timothy chapter three, verse 16.

50:35

So what is the rule for, uh, as the question says, identifying someone in error, the rule is that all scripture is breathed out by God.

50:45

So we have the inspired standard, the inspired measuring stick in country language, all scriptures breathed out by God and is profitable.

50:55

And it's amazing how clear the text is here.

50:57

It's profitable for what? First for teaching, right? So it's for instruction.

51:04

What is right orthodoxy? It's profitable for reproof.

51:09

So what is reproof? Reproof is testing what you've been taught.

51:14

So you can take what the scripture says and compare it with the scripture and know if it's right or wrong and then for correction.

51:22

So when you are wrong, it shows you how to be right and for training in righteousness.

51:28

So that according to the scriptures, that the man of God may be thoroughly furnished under every good work.

51:37

So, I mean, it's, it's again, for me, the simplicity of that, of that passage there is so helpful because again, as we listen to preaching and teaching for no matter who it's from, I do it every Sunday.

51:55

Now, when I listen to you, every time you say something, I'm going in my mind.

52:00

And that's, that's one of the good things about being able to pause.

52:04

You can go in your mind and you can go to the scripture.

52:07

You can, you can check it.

52:09

You can prove it.

52:10

Now I'll be honest.

52:12

It really, it really is something that as Christians that we all must learn to do because we don't want to immediately shut, like, like if you were listening to me and I say something, you don't want to immediately shut me off and stop listening to what I'm saying, just because I said something that you're questioning, but you want to keep listening in there.

52:34

That's where it comes into keeping a notebook handy with you when you're at church and the preacher says something good or the preacher says something wrong with what you feel to be wrong, write it down, make a notation, and then you can go back to it.

52:47

But don't count on your mind.

52:48

Don't count on your memory to keep up with all that because you'll find that the curse is real.

52:55

And every day that goes by, we're, you know, we're, we're less and less than we were the day before.

53:02

So I give you a, Hey man, I agree with that.

53:08

So, uh, so again, that, that gives us the answer there.

53:12

What's the rule? Is there a rule? Yes.

53:14

There's always a rule.

53:16

And it's not, as your first question was, it's not unloving.

53:21

That is a, that is a miss what you helped me hear.

53:29

Cause I don't know the big term here.

53:31

Maybe that's a, uh, there's some kind of a logic term, uh, misapprehension, maybe misapprehension, right? And also it's a straw man when people say, Oh, you're just being unloving and unkind because you disagree with them.

53:48

Like we can't disagree with each other.

53:51

Man.

53:51

I wish I wish Christians, I wish Calvinist even would learn this.

53:57

It's okay to disagree.

53:59

It's okay to not buy in a hundred percent lock, stock and barrel to everything that somebody says.

54:06

That's the problem, right? We got to be willing to, uh, cultivate a relationships with one another.

54:12

We've got to be willing to challenge one another.

54:14

We've got to be willing to compliment one another.

54:17

We've got to be willing to do all of those things within the realm of our relationships with one another.

54:23

Now here's the big problem.

54:26

How's that going to be possible unless you're actually spending time with people? Yeah.

54:30

I mean, and that happens at the local church level.

54:33

So let me, let me go on.

54:35

So I would also add this, that when we do correct people, again, going to the scripture itself, if you, if we go over to Galatians chapter six, um, when it comes to, uh, correcting one another, when it comes to challenging one another, uh, again, it's important for us to remember that we're not the standard.

54:59

Yes.

54:59

Amen.

55:00

I think we're not the ones that we're not the arbiter of truth that the scriptures themselves have already arbitrated the truth.

55:07

They've said, they've said it out there.

55:09

Your word.

55:09

Oh Lord is settled forever in the heavens, right? So when we come to one another, we got to do like what Galatians says, Paul's writing to the Galatians and in chapter six, he says, brother, if anyone is caught in a transgression, in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in the spirit of gentleness, keep a watch on yourself, lest you also be tempted.

55:34

Right.

55:34

That's, I mean, you could stop in, we could end it.

55:37

And as an old preacher used to say, we could call recess and shout for 30 minutes right there.

55:42

Amen.

55:43

Right.

55:44

So, I mean, it's, it's that it's, it's that balance of, of gaining knowledge, but gaining the wisdom to apply that knowledge is the real problem.

55:55

Getting the, getting the knowledge ain't the issue.

55:58

It's the applying the knowledge.

55:59

That's the problem.

56:00

So when we correct one another, we should do it in a spirit of humility and a spirit of love and in keeping in mind that we're looking out for one another.

56:10

That's again, that's it blows my mind how people always bring that up.

56:16

That you are so hateful.

56:17

You're so unloving.

56:18

That's so unkind.

56:20

No, it's because for my brothers and sisters in Christ, I love you.

56:27

Christ gave himself for his church and he saved me.

56:31

And if you're saved, you're part of his church too.

56:34

And I'm called to love you and to look out for you.

56:37

I don't want you to eat a plate full of poop.

56:40

Amen.

56:41

And I, and I agree with you a hundred percent.

56:43

You know, when I said earlier, I said, it was a little harder question.

56:47

I agree with you a hundred percent.

56:48

The scripture is the rule and, and you're right.

56:51

And that is, that is a great answer.

56:54

Maybe just to clarify what I was saying when I said, I think it's, can be a hard, it's, I think knowing where to find the truth is absolutely true.

57:03

What you just said, what, what I was thinking was when and who to correct on a public scale, I think is more like where, where I have my difficulty in trying to figure it out.

57:17

Like if somebody said, people send me videos of people that said, do you see this pastor said this? Do you see this pastor said that? And my initial thought sometimes is yeah, but that's a good guy.

57:28

I know that guy.

57:29

And I know that his heart is in the right place.

57:32

So yeah, he said something stupid, but I'm not going to make a podcast about that guy.

57:38

Uh, because I know that was, I know that guy's a good guy.

57:42

So that's where I say it's kind of hard sometimes because I mean, we, we know, you know, that there are people out there that will attack John MacArthur.

57:51

There are people out there that will attack Paul Washer.

57:53

There are people out there who will attack Bode Backham.

57:56

And these are guys that I would say, even though they say things I disagree with, I mean, John MacArthur's dispensationalist, you know, there are things he, I disagree with.

58:05

I would say for the most part, I've never done a critique video against John MacArthur.

58:11

You know, I've never done a discernment video against his dispensationalism because I see him overall as a good, as a good teacher who I just happened to disagree with on some things.

58:22

Usually when I'm picking out someone and when, and I hope I don't sound like I'm picking on someone, if I'm picking out a video to critique, just like we did with Greg Locke earlier, I'm looking more at their overall ministry and saying, I think this person is not, it's not just that they said something that was a little off.

58:42

It's that this person's ministry as a whole, you mentioned Bill Johnson earlier.

58:47

We've, we've, we've mentioned Priscilla.

58:49

Is it Shiver? Shiver.

58:51

Shiver.

58:53

I, I don't know enough about her to speak to it, but you do.

58:57

But in that sense, you, you, you believed enough to make your video that, that this was something that should concern people.

59:04

So would, so would you agree that that's true? That we, we, we have to kind of look at the whole person rather than one mistake or one clip and that's how we make our, come to our conclusion? Yes.

59:16

I believe it was Paul Washer that gave the analogy or the illustration that we don't, we focus on the snapshots of individuals lives, but we focus on the full, the motion picture, right? We focus on the full body of work, like you just said.

59:34

And certainly there are plenty of times.

59:36

I mean, if somebody, you, you catch, you catch me on the, the right quote unquote, wrong day, I'm not going to be smiling and giggling.

59:47

I mean, cause we all got, we, we live real life.

59:51

We all got real problems.

59:53

We face real issues.

59:54

We've all got real families and we're all like that kid in that meme, right? That's holding the cross up asking because his mama keeps coming at him with the bail.

01:00:04

Right.

01:00:06

I wish, I wish I could pull that meme in.

01:00:09

Yeah.

01:00:09

But when it comes to, when it comes to calling out or admonishing, correcting, right.

01:00:19

Again, it depends on your relationship.

01:00:22

When it, when it's on a personal level, it depends on your relationship when it's private, local church.

01:00:27

Right.

01:00:28

But when it's public, you said it earlier.

01:00:30

I mean, when you're, when you set yourself, when, when we put our videos out, we are putting ourselves in the public domain and we are opening ourselves up to anybody and everybody that wants to say something.

01:00:44

Now, the good news is we can do we, if we go back to Proverbs, we take the wisdom of Proverbs.

01:00:49

We don't listen to everything that everybody says, because if it did, we wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.

01:00:56

Right.

01:00:56

But we, we are discerning in our, uh, in our listening that we even take the criticism.

01:01:03

Not, we don't just test truth by, by the scriptures.

01:01:07

We, we test criticism by the scriptures.

01:01:09

If, and if it don't wind up with the scriptures, throw it out.

01:01:17

Do you think that there are discernment ministries that go too far? Do you think that there are guys out there who just have made it their, their life's ambition to just bash any and everybody and to make an Island under themselves? Yes.

01:01:36

And I, I'll be honest with you.

01:01:39

Uh, I know they're not, um, it's, it's kind of gone the way and I hate that.

01:01:46

Uh, I hate that, um, it's not J.D.

01:01:52

Greer.

01:01:53

What's his name? Uh, pull pit and pin.

01:01:55

Yeah, I was, I was going to say, I would be willing to say that is, that is one of the discernment ministries that really made themselves an Island.

01:02:06

And that's, that's, uh, that's a hard thing to, to say publicly, right.

01:02:14

Because I like to, I like to listen to some of the things J.D.

01:02:16

said.

01:02:17

I imagine that some of the things that he was probably akin to Luther, right.

01:02:23

Kind of no filter and just said what he thought.

01:02:26

But we, we've got to temper even our, let our speech be always seasoned with grace, right.

01:02:35

Or seasoned with salt and speak with grace and humility.

01:02:39

Now that comes out strong.

01:02:40

Sometimes it's like casserole.

01:02:42

Sometimes it's like sweet tea, but other times, you know, it's going to be, it's going to be one or the other.

01:02:47

It's going to be bitter or sweet.

01:02:48

There's really no in between.

01:02:50

If, if our speech, if our communication, our correction to our brothers and sisters, isn't one or the other, then we're not, we're not doing it right.

01:02:59

Yeah, absolutely.

01:03:01

And that, and in the notes, I mentioned the phrase heresy hunter and that, and that, that, that, that, that title has been applied to me.

01:03:08

I don't know if you've ever had somebody say that to you.

01:03:10

Well, you're just out there hunting the heretics and you, you know, you think you're better than everybody else.

01:03:15

It's not about that, but, but I do think that there are some ministries where, because they have, because they have, they've created their following based upon correcting others.

01:03:31

They're always looking for somebody to correct, even if the person doesn't necessarily deserve the attention that they're receiving.

01:03:40

And the negative retention, I mean, you know, I, and again, I'm a big fan of James White.

01:03:46

Some people might say James White is a heresy hunter because he points out the errors in people, but I've seen him be very gracious, even to people who are, even to heretics.

01:03:56

I mean, he, I remember him saying, who was it? Not John Dominic Crossan.

01:04:02

No, it was John Dominic Crossan.

01:04:04

He said was the nicest heretic he'd ever met, you know, you know.

01:04:07

So, you know, I, I think we can learn from that and, and, and seeking to be fair to people.

01:04:15

And, you know, you mentioned something too earlier about a personal relationship.

01:04:21

I, I do think that there are times when, if there is an opportunity for us to speak into the life of someone public, or even if somebody is in the public eye, if we have their, if we have the ability to contact them privately, I think that would be a much more kind way.

01:04:40

Some people don't want to hear it, especially once people get to a certain level of celebrity, they, they feel like they are beyond scrutiny, and that's dangerous.

01:04:50

Which, again, but no matter what, what level of celebrity, how low we are, or how high an individual is, the standard is still the same.

01:05:00

Gospel steps for addressing issues are still go to the individual, get two or three witnesses if they don't listen, and go from there.

01:05:11

I mean, it's, it's, I know it's, it sounds black and white.

01:05:17

It sounds up and down.

01:05:19

It sounds wrong and right.

01:05:20

It sounds that simple, but it's made so complicated.

01:05:27

Yeah, no, we do.

01:05:28

We, we tend to over-complicate things for sure.

01:05:32

This is getting to the, to the end of the show.

01:05:34

We've gone over an hour, and I want to, first of all, I want to thank you for, for being on the show today, and, and giving your, your time.

01:05:41

I know you're a pastor, and you're a podcaster.

01:05:44

You're a, you have a family, so I know taking time away from your family is, is a lot.

01:05:49

So, I want to simply say before, you know, we begin to draw to close, that we thank you for being here, but my final question for you is this.

01:05:57

Not all discernment ministries are Calvinistic, but many are, and I want to ask as we, as we draw this out, why do you think that discernment ministries appeal to Calvinists? This might go back to the first question, which was, you know, why are Calvinists so stodgy? So, what do you, why do you think it appeals to us so much? I would say because of the intellectual integrity of the truth of the scriptures, right? That it's just, it's a, it is truly the standard.

01:06:31

I mean, if you want to know what a measurement is, you look at a, you know, a tape measure or whatever.

01:06:37

I mean, the thing is, it, it never changes.

01:06:41

It is always the same, and I think that's the appeal to us as Calvinists, is that we have that fixed standard, but the, the challenge comes for us to make application.

01:06:55

How do we do it? So, there's, there's always nuances, always difficulties.

01:06:59

I mean, the term reformed itself, right? That's from the Latin phrase, ecclesiae reformata, semper reformanda, secundum verbum dea.

01:07:07

The church reformed and always being reformed according to the word of God.

01:07:14

I mean, it's, it's like a, our lives as Christians are just, I mean, like an airplane pilot.

01:07:19

I've got a young man that I've became friends with over the past few months.

01:07:24

He's a young preacher, but he's an airplane pilot, but the thing about flying an airplane, nobody thinks about this, but when you're up in the air in an airplane, you know, you hit turbulence.

01:07:34

Of course, it seems rough, but there is constantly corrections and calculations being made and being applied during the process of that flight, and it is the same for us, and our calculations and our changes that we make are sometimes minute, sometimes they are major.

01:07:56

Nevertheless, it is the standard of the word of God.

01:07:59

So, I think it's the reliability of the scriptures, intellectual integrity.

01:08:06

Amen.

01:08:07

And in honor of my friend and yours as well, Jake Korn, he's recently connected with you, I think.

01:08:15

You just said, you said the scripture is a standard, his favorite phrase on the show, by what standard? That's right.

01:08:24

And the standard is the scripture.

01:08:26

So, I think that's a good place for us to draw to a close.

01:08:30

So, thank you, Claude, for being here on the program today.

01:08:33

I love you.

01:08:34

I appreciate you, and I'm glad that we're friends and continue to serve the Lord as brothers in Christ.

01:08:41

Amen.

01:08:42

Thank you, sir.

01:08:43

Yes, sir.

01:08:44

Yes, sir.

01:08:45

And I want to thank you again, listener, for being on the program with us today, and if you have a question that you would like for me to address on a future episode, please send it to me at calvinispodcast at gmail.com.

01:08:57

You can find all of our videos on calvinispodcast.com.

01:09:02

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01:09:08

We have two books that we're giving away, one by Paul Washer, one by Dr.

01:09:11

R.C.

01:09:12

Sproul.

01:09:12

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01:09:27

So, again, I want to thank you for being a part of the show today, and again, if you would do me the one favor, if you are watching this on YouTube, please go and hit the like button, hit the subscribe button, share it with a friend.

01:09:40

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01:09:46

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01:09:49

My name is Keith Foskey, and I've been your Calvinist.

01:09:53

May God bless you.