Baptism Debate with a Roman Catholic, Part 1

Opening Technical Setup and Delay Before the Debate

All right, welcome Matt slick Here and you're listening to apologetics live. It is straight-up six o 'clock and I was just talking to Charlie friend of mine. He's in the participation room with me. For some reason I don't know how it slipped my mind, but it did we'd never got or I don't know how to get the The actual room URL to the guy and possibly debating that night so all I can do is hope that he shows up and I'll get into the room link and then we can you know Get an email address and I can email it to him and you can get in.

It's just an oversight of my part should have taken care of that earlier but as you guys know, I've got a lot going on a lot going on and Been difficult trying to keep track of everything. So let's see how many people are in the room right now.

And I don't see anybody. So hopefully we'll be able to get. We'll get him going. There we go. We turn this down. Okay. Oh Man, 25 people are watching. So if you're one of the guys of the Catholic guy is listening.

Email me. We should have taken care of this. I just anyway just email me at info at calm org and I'll give you the the address so you can get in check it out. Actually, maybe I could just put it up on the whole site because Charlie you could just mute everybody.

So that nobody can. You can do that, right? Yeah, you can do that. You can just mute everybody and I think I'll do that. Yeah, if I have the controls, yeah, you have the controls, don't you? Not that I'm aware of.

Let's see Okay and Share controls with Charlie. So you got him now. Let me just go ahead and put the participation link up on the apologetics live portion and You know what we'll do. Okay. Okay dissipate there's that URL to watch.

I don't know how to already get into it, but people are and Come on there you go. Come on. There we go. And we'll just have to figure it out because if he wants to come in that he could do it that way.

So let's go here and let's go. There and we'll just save it. Got it. So there you go. All you got to do is Just click on the participation link like anybody does come in. Charlie just automatically silenced them so they don't have any ability to interrupt and in the meantime, what we'll do is we'll call this kind of fill the air and So if he doesn't show up what I'll do is I'll read some Trent material on baptism and I'll go through the biblical position on baptism and I'll teach on it.

My baptism is not necessary for salvation. You should get baptized, but it is not necessary. Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. I'll go through this various verses and and things like that and discuss some of the issues if he doesn't show up I'm sure those things will probably be brought up.

Anyway. So we got we got one Greg. What's his name in good. Amen. So he's in there and And Wilkinson so we'll just see. Hopefully he'll come around now. This is supposed to be streamed out there in G3 a little bit.

I'll probably on a table on a laptop people can watch if you're watching. Hello. We don't have many people around the table. Not out there g3. Why well, the main reason is my wife's health. She's pretty bad off right now and A lot of problems a lot of issues.

So I need to kind of be the caretaker a little bit and be around while she kind of heals up and stuff. So next year though, I definitely want to make it out there. I wish I could be a speaker out there.

That'd be nice actually be a speaker but We'll see what happens. All right, so I think I'm gonna do is update this the apologetics live thing and put the participate in red and And the watch in red so that people could be drawn to be drawn to it hopefully and they can check it out and click on the link and there I guess he's in and.

That you traditional Catholic, yeah, hold on. Let me get this thing straight. It's okay.

All right, so I'm gonna take it off the site and the watch is there. Is you already going to want me more people to Come in. I. Okay, oh I think we lost he lost. Oh man. Let's see if he can get back in.

I had to put the link back up. I Took it out. I don't want people to come on in and he's found it but no he's out. So I may have to put it back in again. Oh, there it is. He's back in. Okay, don't have to put it up.

Great.

Okay, is everyone able to hear me. Am I coming in loud and clear. Yes you are. Okay, great. Oh good. All righty. Okay. Well, I'm glad I'm glad we we're gonna have this debate. I've been looking forward to it all week.

Good. I got a question for you before we start. Yeah, what's your real name James. Well, that's my middle name. What's your giving out my name over the Internet? I don't trust the Internet. I'm one of those that.

Well, so it's okay for you then to hide behind in that anonymity. Will I risk my full reputation and everything here?

Knows your name right? No one knows. Well, my yeah, but my name doesn't prove. Okay fine. My name is James Robinson. Good. Thank you. Okay. That was easy. All right You. Yeah, but it doesn't really make any.

It doesn't really make any difference what my name or your name is because. It has nothing to do with the debate.

Well, I want to know who I'm debating and that's just that's where that is. So are you ready to start? I'm I'm ready. Okay, and so the debate topic is what you agreed to. Does the Bible teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation and.

We did agree we did agree that I could cite early church of others as well.

Well, you can do whatever you want with your time. It's your time. But the debate topic is does the Bible teach that water baptisms necessary for salvation? So if you want to quote, you know a recipe book you do what you want in your time.

But that's the topic. Okay, so I think it was I'm pretty fair about whatever. I mean if you go over time, I don't care. So we're talking about six minutes seven minutes. I thought it was right five. What was it?

I remember.

Well, you did say unlimited. You didn't. You didn't. You said last week, you know, you didn't care. It could be unlimited. So I don't know if it's gonna go over six or not. I think most of my statements will probably be around maybe three or four.

But maybe it might go over six maybe one or two might go over six. I don't know. I think maybe my statement is a little longer than the rest.

Well, okay, I hope you you know, you're gonna do an opening statement, I hope it's not more than two hours and That I can respond to it and then we can go back and forth. I guess I'll just work it out and try to be as polite as possible.

All right. Sounds great. Okay.

Roman Catholic Opening Statement on Baptism and Salvation

Go for it. You're up. Okay, I'm glad Matt has agreed on having an Uninterrupted debate format since we've clashed numerous times in the past by talking over each other. I believe this type of exchange and discussion will be more edifying to the listeners and viewers.

I just want everyone to know that I'm just a lay Catholic. I have no degrees. There are Catholic apologists out there that I'm sure would do a far better job at debating mass leak than myself such as Trent Horn of Catholic answers Brother diamond of Vatican Catholic comm or Jerry Matadix of Jerry Matadix org, but nonetheless, I'll give it a go.

To begin my belief in necessity of water baptism is based on the traditional infallible dogmatic teachings of the Holy Catholic Church, which Jesus established 2 ,000 years ago as well as the New Testament scriptures Which most Protestants admit was originally compiled and decreed by the Holy Catholic Church as being the inspired Word of God in 395 AD.

Sadly Even though most all Protestants agree that the Holy Catholic Church was the church that originally determined the canon of New Testament books. Those same Protestants refused to accept the Catholic Church's own understanding of what those books revealed to us.

So Protestants apparently accept the Catholic Church's authority on one hand While refusing to accept the Catholic Church's authority on the other which is an oxymoron. The Catholic Church has always taught the necessity of water baptism for salvation.

In fact Protestants after the Reformation 500 years ago Also believed in the necessity of water baptism for the forgiveness of one sins. Even most Protestant churches today still hold to that belief. Yet a new type of Protestant belief has arisen within recent times Whereby they no longer believe as the Christian Church has always believed with regards to baptism.

Instead they reject the necessity of baptism for salvation. They ignore the fact that for the most of the Christian Church's history. It was unanimously believed that forgiveness of sins sanctification regeneration.

Initial justification in true saving faith itself was conferred by God at the moment a believer was water baptized. Even with all the biblical and patristic evidence these small number of Protestants will falsely claim that baptism is just a symbol or Testimony to a person having already been saved by their belief alone.

Protestants do something called quote one verse theology unquote. Which means they'll take one verse or one chapter such as Romans 10 Informed their theology around it while ignoring its context in relation with the rest of Scripture.

They'll cite verses whereby it says we're saved by faith or saved by believing such as Acts 16 31, which says quote Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Unquote. But notice however, this verse does not say only believe and you'll be saved.

Yet those Protestants that cite this verse and other verses like it want you to think that's what it's saying. In fact many of them Many of them will cite this verse but deceptively refused to cite the verse shortly following it, which says quote.

Within that same hour. He was baptized. For Protestants to falsely claim water baptism is only symbolic. Then they are denying the fact that Scripture itself makes clear that God Reconciles us to himself by forgiving us of our sins through the waters of baptism.

Which he himself instituted under his new covenant as we see in chapter one Matthew 28 19 through 20 the baptism Jesus received as we see in Luke 3 21 through 22 is A foreshadowing of the new baptism.

He would give us notice the Father and Son and Holy Spirit all being present at Jesus as Baptism and then notice all three persons of the Holy Triune God being invoked in the new covenant baptism. We Catholics agree that there is symbolism in baptism, but nowhere does scripture claim baptism is only Symbolic.

Instead scripture makes clear that baptism signifies what actually occurs at the moment one gets baptized. Which is the washing away of one's sins thereby being seen righteous before God and thereby having a good conscience afterwards.

Knowing that one's own sins have been forgiven. This is why 1 Peter 3 21 says. Quote baptism now saves you. Unquote. Not one place in scripture. Does it say that a person is saved prior to being baptized by believing alone?

Instead Scripture explicitly says baptism saves in 1 Peter 3 21. This is because scripture itself tells us that baptism under the new covenant is Directly tied to Jesus as saving grace through his sacrifice on the cross instead of taking a verse out of context as Protestants do in order to justify their false doctrine of Faith alone.

We Catholics on the other hand correctly read verses in context with the rest of scripture. By doing it this way It becomes crystal clear that three requirements must be in place in order to receive Jesus as forgiving grace.

Those three requirements are belief and repentance and baptism. The small number of Protestants that reject baptism will make the unbiblical claim that only belief and repentance are necessary. However.

Lately, I've discovered a new crop of Protestants that don't even believe repentance of one's own sins is necessary. Instead they'll say belief alone is sufficient. Notice how they just keep getting further and further away from the truth of God.

Matt slick is one of those Protestants that rejects the necessity of baptism for the forgiveness of sins. So again, he and I have agreed to an uninterrupted debate format whereby I make my case with regards to the necessity of water baptism for salvation and he makes his case against it and That concludes my opening statement.

There I had to unmute myself. So that was that was six minutes on the not on the dot man. Pretty good. I'll see if I can do six minutes. Okay all right, so Allow me to get my notes and I'll reset my timer here a little bit and try and follow it.

There we go. Let's do let's do that ready. All right. Well, first of all, thanks. I hope everybody watching is going to enjoy this. I enjoy debating the biblical theology and. So I took notes from what he was saying and Get somebody windows open hold on a second get to them so I can go down through what he was he said and Why is it that way.

Okay, Wow, okay, so He quoted Acts 16 31 and it was really interesting to see what he did. He did not establish that water baptism is necessary for salvation if something is necessary for salvation. It means that it cannot be an exception to it.

It's necessary that my brain function or me to be physically alive. There's no exceptions to that. I have functioning brain brain death is dead. So when something is necessary there cannot be an exception to it.

So what he would be saying is The necessity of water baptism means that without it you cannot be saved. It's necessary. And furthermore, he would teach that the bet that the Bible teaches that necessity and it doesn't teach that necessity nothing.

He Showed us taught any necessity of it and I'll go through some of the verses next 1631. They said I believe in the Lord Jesus and you'll be saved in your household and then he quoted later where they got baptized.

And they were all baptized the next verse in verse 32. Okay, I like those those sets of scriptures in next 1630. Let's read the whole thing and after he brought them up He said sirs, what must I do to be saved.

And they said believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. You and your household. So the text right there says that believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. What's the answer to the question sirs?

What must I do to be saved. The answer to the question is? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you'll be saved you and your household and they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with. In the house, they took that very night the hour and washed their wounds.

He was baptized. He knows a household. That's verse 33. So they were baptized later. After they were saved which is consistent I can hear you may want to mute your mic because I can hear you breathing and making noises.

And so to be you know to show something else that's consistent with that. We go to X 10 44 Through 48 now while Peter was speaking with these speaking the words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who are listening to the message all the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and Exalting God then Peter answered surely.

No one can refuse the water for these to be baptized to have received the Holy Spirit just as we did Kenny. And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus. So they were baptized now. Where were they where they receive the Holy Spirit.

You go to Acts chapter 2 when Pentecost occurred they received the Holy Spirit. Now what he had said was that you don't find any instances where people are saved before baptism. Yes, you do acts 10 44 through 48 people are there with the Holy Spirit had fallen upon them and they were speaking in tongues.

They were glorifying God and speaking in tongues as a gift charismatic gift to the Christian Church. They were exalting God now. We know from 1st Corinthians 2 14 and Romans 3 10 11 and 12 that the unbeliever Cannot understand that or receive the things of God and he does not do anything.

That is good and that includes praising God and exalting God. This is done by the power of the Holy Spirit within them so they've already received the Holy Spirit just as Peter said he already had received the Holy Spirit and then they got baptized so what James sure would have to be saying is that These people here who were who had received the Holy Spirit just as Peter and were speaking in tongues and glorifying God.

We're still unsaved. We're still weren't saved. We're not forgiven because they hadn't gotten dunked in water and that is a problem for him. He went to 1st Peter 3 321 and twice Quoted only a small section in order to get it to.

I guess I don't know. To support his view. He said baptism now saves you and you want to know something after the verse says Baptism now saves you now. There's a important concept here and Dealing with scriptures we need to read the context of things just like I did in in Acts 16 30 and 31.

Let's do that with first Peter 3 20 21 starting verse 20 those who were once disobedient when the patience of God Kept waiting in the days of Noah during the construction of the ark in which a few that is eight persons were brought safely through the water.

Safely through the water that means the water was the means of destruction and death to people and Peter confirms that later on but nevertheless. And corresponding to that Baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh.

But an appeal to God for a clean a good conscience to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Corresponding to what the Greek word there is anti to pawn. It's a it's responding. Corresponding is something that came before the antecedent of that baptism.

Now. Here's a question. What it does baptism correspond to well baptism saves you what saved? What saved Noah was it the water or was it the ark? Well, it was the ark now. There are some debate among scholars about what the antecedent is of.

Can can you know baptism according to that that is is it water and some say the ark? I hold of the position that is the ark because that's what saved Noah. So that's why I believe Peter says corresponding to that baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt.

He goes not this issue of the water on you Had the dirt removed from you but an appeal and this is what he's doing. The word baptism is used in different contexts in different ways throughout the the New Testament and We can see that It's not always just simply talking about water baptism.

There are other instances of it and other things baptism of the Holy Spirit and things like that, but that's another topic. So the verses he has quoted don't prove his point. No ever his point is to prove That water baptism is necessary for salvation.

He's not done that and that is six minutes. Go ahead.