December 6, 2019 Show with William Sasser on “The Holy Bible: ‘Him’ Book for the Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this sixth day of December 2019 and I'm thrilled to have back on the program an old friend and a new sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor William Sasser of Grace Church at Franklin, Tennessee, and today we are going to be addressing the

Holy Bible hymn book for the church and I know that a lot of people when they saw the promotion of this interview they probably were thinking to themselves that Chris Arnzen is so stupid he doesn't even know how to spell hymn book he spelled it h -i -m instead of h -a -y -m -n.

No I spelled it the way it was supposed to be spelled because we are not talking about the hymn book for the church. Some might even think that the

Holy Bible hymn book for the church is a discussion on exclusive psalmody and it's not that either.

We're talking about the hymn book meaning God being hymn and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor William Sasser.

Glad to be here. Our privilege. Well before we go into your personal testimony of salvation which is something that we typically do for first time guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio but since the last time you were on there were multiple guests and if we had everybody give their testimony we would never have time to pay tribute to John Riesinger which was the subject that we had that day.

So I would like you to take this opportunity today being the second time that you're on the program to give a little bit of your salvation testimony but before that why don't you tell our listeners about Grace Church at Franklin, Tennessee which happens to be a new sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would certainly be happy to do that and of course I want to encourage any pastors or teachers or people out there to do all they can to support

Iron Sharpens Iron because I think it's a very, very valuable program disseminating truth, bringing brothers of different stripes together to talk about and discuss issues after all no one has arrived.

I hope we know that but I moved to Tennessee in 71, actually moved in the same home that I live in now in February of 72 so I've been here almost 50 years, 2021 will be 50 years.

I was down in Georgia, had visited some conferences, I was at a conference in Arkansas, Pine Bluff, Arkansas and met a fellow from Nashville, Tennessee and about a year later he called me and said, �Do you remember me ?�

I did and he wanted to know if I would come to Nashville and to teach a small group of people on a weekend meeting and of course

I did that. My wife and I drove up to Nashville and they were having various men speak and I drove up,

I spoke to them I think probably a Saturday and twice on Sunday and then drove back home and that began to be a regular trip and so eventually he called me and said, �Look we've had a little meeting and we're wondering if you might entertain the idea of actually moving to Tennessee and pastoring this group.�

And of course we prayed about it, we owned our home in Georgia, southwest Georgia in fact,

Albany, Albany, Georgia is where I was living at the time and so we kind of put out our fleece and asked the

Lord to make the ground dry and put a Gideon thing and prayed and finally determined that this was

God's will. I remember the brother saying, �Well now Brother Sasha we need to let you know that we've gotten together and the most we can give you is $50 a week.�

And I said, �Well I'm not concerned about that.� I said, �I know I have to take care of my family.�

I had a little boy who at the time was only about five years old and I said, �But you know what

I'm concerned about is what is the will of the Lord and if it is the Lord's will for me to go to Tennessee he will provide a way.�

And of course we did make the move. We lived with a couple of families in the church for a few months while we were looking for a home and we got a home, moved into it in February of 72 in Franklin.

I've never heard of Franklin by the way, it's about 10 -15 minutes south of Nashville. Back in those days they were just completing our 65 and so it seemed much further.

But we've been in Franklin now all these years. We met in a small building, actually we began in the

Holiday Inn in Nashville and then we moved to a bank room in a bank building in an area called

Brentwood, which is between Nashville and Franklin. And then finally a little building became available in Franklin and we went to talk to the fellow who owned the building and he said, �Look

I'll sell it to you anyway. You can pay me off in a year, you can pay me off in 20 years.� That's what we needed. And so we secured that building, moved into it, began to renovate it.

We enlarged it, we started a Christian school a couple of years later and we ended up staying in that location for 35 years.

And then back in 2006 we built a beautiful new building on Arno Road and of course over the years we've hosted all kinds of conferences and we're now hosting each year the

PTI, Providence Theological Institute conference that's held every June or July.

And if I can find those dates maybe later we can remind some of the listeners of that. Sure, and I assume that the last one you had was done in honor of John Riesinger since he had recently gone home to glory for eternity, where you called it the

John Bunyan conference. That's exactly right. In fact I held,

John and I was just looking today at a folder, he and I had some

Bunyan conferences in Oregon back in �95, �96. We had three or four meetings out there.

I was the speaker, John was the speaker, there was a fellow from California named Art Orzerdia.

I hadn't seen Art, you know Art? I don't know him personally but I have heard of him. Well I hadn't seen him in years and years so I still hope he's still in the faith.

But we had several meetings out there each year, well attended, for about three or four years and then of course some other folks had been having these meetings all the while this new covenant theology was developing and the

Lord has a way of providential bringing people together. But as far as Franklin, Tennessee, I've been here for nearly 50 years having come here from southwest

Georgia and we're still here. We have a strong congregation of very faithful people and the

Lord has been good to me, giving me good health. I'm still carrying on just like I did 50 years ago.

So things are going well. I was thinking, I can't remember, I may have met you at a

Bunyan conference in Pennsylvania. Yes, I did. I met you and your lovely wife at one of the

Bunyan conferences. I started to attend those conferences in the late 1980s and went for a number of years after that.

My beloved late wife, before we were married, was a member of First Baptist Church in Lyndon Hearst, Long Island, New York, and the pastor there was the late

Don Blynd, who became a very close friend of mine, who is also now in eternal glory with my late wife.

And Don Blynd started taking me to the Bunyan conference for a number of years in a row and I fell in love with the fellowship there.

I have always been a member of a confessional, covenantal, Reformed Baptist Church, but I've always had very close friendships and relationships with New Covenant theology

Baptists nearly my entire Christian life, since it wasn't that long after I was saved that I married my wife and her coming from a

New Covenant church. I just naturally developed many New Covenant friends and I've always maintained those friendships.

And to be perfectly honest, I think that many on both sides exaggerate the severity of those differences to the point of not fellowshipping with one another, which

I think is a tragedy. I think you're exactly right, and it reminds me of a conference

I spoke in many years ago and I spoke on the subject, who is a Christian, and I tried to qualify and clarify exactly what you're saying.

I said, you know, I said some people want to be classified as this or that and the other, and I said, how about,

I said, you're probably saying, well Bill, what would you like for us to call you? And I said, how about a

Biblicist? I said, I like that term, Biblicist. We separate over issues that we won't say are not important to us, but issues that should not separate the brethren.

Amen. I agree on that. And still have maintained close friendships with Pastor Gary George of Sovereign Grace Chapel in Massachusetts, and also

Fred Zaspel, who is a brilliant author and scholar and pastor at the

Reformed Baptist Church of Franconia, Pennsylvania, and a number of other folks. Really am enjoying starting to get to know both

Stephen and Kirk Wellam, who I hope to have back on the program, who were speakers at the last

John Bunyan Conference at your congregation, at your church I should say, Grace Church of Franklin.

Well that's right. In fact, Fred Zaspel has spoken here for us many times over the years, and Fred got busy working on his doctorate, and of course

I haven't seen him in a few years now, but we are thinking about trying to get him to come back and speak maybe in one of the providence of the theological institute conferences here, perhaps this coming year.

Amen. One shining light that I know personally, who

I've grown to deeply love as a brother and friend, Dr. Tony Costa, who is a shining light in your neck of the woods there of theology, that is, the

New Covenant theology. I've had a number of speaking engagements that I've orchestrated personally, featuring

Dr. Costa, as well as a couple of debates, and I'm looking forward to doing that for many years to come in the future.

Tony is a bright and shining light. I met him years ago also. I met him at a conference in which

I was a speaker out in Colorado, and they invited him out.

We became very fast, quick friends, and we still communicate as we can.

He's a brilliant young scholar, and I think the Lord has already done great things with him, and he's going to do many more great things for him.

My friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries is one of the most gifted,

I think he's the most gifted debater on the planet Earth, coming from a theologically reformed perspective.

When I heard Dr. James White say that due to illness a number of years ago, he might have to back out of a debate with a

Roman Catholic, and he had Dr. Tony Costa waiting in the wings to fill in if necessary, I knew that Dr.

Tony Costa must be magnificent, because Dr. James White doesn't take that kind of thing lightly.

I think you're absolutely right, and of course, that's Tony's calling,

I think, and not only does he have the personality for it, the stamina, the tenaciousness, but he has the brains and the intellect, and he's a real student of, you know, you have to study what other people believe, and where they stand, if you're going to defend your own, and he's had, as you know, many debates with Muslim scholars on university campuses, and he always does quite well.

Yes, he is the Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Toronto, Canada.

For those of you who want to look up his information, that website is tbs .edu, tbs, for torontobaptistseminary .edu.

I also know that your church, Grace Church at Franklin, is an independent and autonomous church.

If you want to mention a couple of things about why that is important. Yes, when I came to Tennessee, Tennessee, of course,

Middle Tennessee, we call it, Nashville, Tennessee, known as Music City primarily, but when

I came here, there were over 1 ,300 churches in the Nashville, Tennessee area, so it's a very religious area.

The Southern Baptist School Board is located in Nashville, all of their printing ministry for their

Sunday School materials and Bible study materials are all located in Nashville, so Vecna Nazarene College and University is in Nashville, Belmont University, which

I attended after I had a degree in seminary when I came to Tennessee, I went back to school, graduated from Belmont, and then

I went to Vanderbilt, many people do not realize that Vanderbilt University was a

Methodist university, and so lots of religion in Nashville, and when

I came here in the early 70s, they were in the throes of what we call, to use a kind term, liberalism.

I say it that way because I don't believe in spiritual liberals, I personally believe that you either are a believer or you are not, even the

Bible, either the Bible is the word of God or it is not, but there was a lot of that going on at the time.

I happen to have had some friends who were professors, and they would talk to me about this, for example, in Louisville in those days, they signed what they called the abstract principles document if you were going to be a teacher there, a professor there, and it just had basic fundamental statements about what you believed, and there were fellows there that would sign that and then commence to do all they could to discredit scripture.

So Nashville was kind of a mecca in those days, and we just didn't want to be part of it.

When I first came here, we were the Reformed Baptist Church of Franklin, well actually we were of Nashville, we met in Nashville, and we ended up after about a year settling in Franklin, that's where my wife and I had moved, and we found this building in Franklin.

But to get to the point, everybody was leaning toward this liberal viewpoint, we did not want to be part of that, and so we decided, okay, we're a church, we believe in the grace of God, we're in Franklin, it actually sounds like a web address, way ahead of our time,

Grace Church at A .T. Franklin, and we found this little building on Arno Road in Franklin, which is only one mile off of I -65, very conveniently located, and as I mentioned earlier, we stayed there for 35 years until we built this new building which is right across the road, right across the road from our old building.

But the reason that we are called Grace Church in Franklin, the reason we are an independent congregation, is simply because we did not want to be associated with any group or denomination which were questioning a part of them, not all of them by any means, but many of them questioning the authority of Scripture, and the teachings of Scripture.

So we just decided that we would be an independent church, and there is a price to be paid.

Now there are many large denominational churches today, there are two large churches in Franklin, one is a

Southern Baptist church, but they don't call themselves a Baptist church anymore, they call themselves something like Church of the

City, and then there's a large Presbyterian church here, and they call themselves Christ Community Church, but they are in fact a

Presbyterian church. So people are now wanting to appear to be independent, and that's fine, but we've always been that way, so the price was paid, and the

Lord has blessed us, sustained us, had a television ministry for 20 years on the

Fox network, and the only reason we got off of it is because we built this new building, we don't like indebtedness, we wanted to pay for the building as much as we could up front.

So we got off television, of course now I'm on the internet, you can check our website out,

GraceChurchAtFranklin .org, you can go to Ustream and see the services, now we're on Sermon Audio also, all of those mediums of trying to get the word out.

But that's why we're an independent congregation, because back in those days there was a lot of liberalism, we didn't want to be part of it.

And of course, as we've already mentioned, you are a Sovereign Grace believing church, and I'm assuming down south that would be a minority among Baptists and other

Bible believing churches? That's true, that's very true. We unashamedly adhere to, in various circles, and you know this

Chris, it's named various things, that's why I said

Biblicist earlier, but Reformed, Calvinism, Calvinistic, Baptistic, whatever term you want to use, we believe in the

Sovereign Grace of God, we do believe in election and predestination, but we also believe that it is our duty to proclaim the gospel to every creature, as the

Lord said, after all I can't, you know, I tell our congregation all the time, beating a blind dog with a stick won't make him see.

And so I'm not going to preach a mean and ugly gospel, and what

I'm saying by that is, because I believe in total depravity, I expect a sinner to act like a sinner unless the

Lord does something for him, and that means that I can be kind to all men, and I can pray for all men, and I can witness to all men, because it is the

Lord himself who adds to the church such as should be saved. So that's right, we do aspire to those historic doctrines that's called various names,

Reformed Sovereign Grace, unashamedly, that's our theological position.

Excuse me, I'll probably have to get me some water in a minute. Well, I want to make sure, I will, if I remember to, and I hope

I remember to, repeat this later on in the show, but the website for Grace Church at Franklin, in Franklin, Tennessee, is gracechurchatfranklin .org,

gracechurchatfranklin .org, and the at, by the way, is spelt out A -T, it's not the symbol at, it's gracechurchatfranklin .org,

and Franklin is F -R -A -N -K -L -I -N. So we hope that if you are living in that area, or if you're visiting that area, or if you have friends, family, and loved ones in that area, that you will either attend worship services there, and perhaps even join if you do not have a biblically based church that you are a member of right now, or that you recommend that church to others who do live near that area.

That's gracechurchatfranklin .org. And now, as I was saying earlier, let's have a summary of your own salvation testimony, what kind of a religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and the providential circumstances that the

Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Well, I was born into a family that did attend worship.

They attended a local Baptist church in extreme southwest

Georgia, only about 30 miles from Florida. My mother was a Floridian. She was born in Tallahassee, Florida, and only about 30 or 40 miles from Alabama, a little county called

Early County. And we lived there and attended worship consistently until I was about eight years old, and then when we moved about 35, 40 miles to Albany, Georgia, which was at that time the second largest city behind Atlanta.

And so we moved there. My parents continued to attend worship, and they took me to worship.

And when I was a young boy of about 12, I made a profession of faith.

I personally, at this point, looked back. I don't think I knew the Lord at all, but I was in a service and everybody was weeping and everybody was crying, and I remember the preacher would get red -faced and the veins in his neck were sticking out like water hoses, and he was making some points and people were weeping, and I found myself suddenly down at the front weeping with the rest of them.

So I made a profession of faith when I was about 12 years of age, and then when

I was a teenager, I became involved in the world of music, and I became a professional musician.

I played with Dick Clark. Some of the people out there, I might be old enough to remember Dick Clark. The younger generation associates him with the ball dropping on New Year's, but he had an

American band stand, and I got involved in music, so I was not attending worship of any kind in all those years.

Then I met the girl that I was going to end up marrying, which we did.

We married, and in 1965, my son was born. The Lord, even though I was not a saved man, the

Lord spoke to me through that boy, and I knew that I couldn't be any kind of a dad if I was traveling on the road playing wherever, and I played all over the country.

So I came off of the road, played some local clubs. Lynn and I bought a little house out in East Albany.

Albany, Georgia had three military bases. They had a Navy base, a Marine base, and an

Air Force base. In the Providence of God, the Air Force base closed down.

They moved it to California, and all of the base housing became available, so we bought a small home.

I can tell you how large that house was by telling you the payments. The payments were $64 a month.

That's a very small little place, probably about seven or eight square feet. But we moved in that home, and each day when we came home, when

I came home from work, I got a daytime job and was playing at night. We would pass a small building at a church.

A group of a congregation were meeting there, and my wife, as she grew up, she had a grandmother that really knew the

Lord, and I believe she was a sovereign grace believer. She knew that Lynn loved music, my wife

Lynn, and so she would use music. Lynn, we're going to do a lot of singing. We're going to do blah, blah, blah to get her to go.

Well, Lynn heard some truth that I never heard, and by hearing it,

I mean she heard it in the inner person. So she knew something, but she had continued to go on in her own way, and so the

Lord began to deal with her. So she said to me, hey Bill, you know this little church up here we pass by every day?

Why don't we go there Sunday? Well, that would be like me calling you and saying, let's take a plane this afternoon to London.

It was just, you know, ridiculous. I hadn't been in church in years and years. And so we went, and the guy that was the pastor there, there were two things that impressed me.

One, I knew he believed in what he was teaching. Secondly, he spoke with authority.

There was an authority in his teaching. And his name was

William R. Cruz, C -R -E -W -S. He's gone to be with the Lord now. In those days, he was really preaching the gospel.

And I think later in his life, he was pulled aside somewhat in what I call subjectivism through the influence of some other pastors.

But in those days, he was in his thirties, and he was really preaching the gospel of sovereign grace.

So we began going there and hearing him preach the gospel.

My wife came to know the Lord, and then she began praying for me, of course. And it was about a year or so later before I came under very heavy conviction.

I couldn't find any peace whatsoever. I knew that I was lost.

I was undone. I did not know the Lord. And so I began to earnestly seek the

Lord, to call on him, to read the scripture, consistent in hearing the word of God.

And I believe that I came to know the Lord. And so I made a—I talked to my pastor, and I confessed the

Lord before the church and confessed him at baptism. By the way, let's pick up right where you left off because we have to go to our first break.

All right. And so we'll pick up at your baptism. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Bill Sasser, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Always remember to give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Bill Sasser right after these messages. This is

Pastor Bill Sasser, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers that strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sasser wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arndt. And if you've just tuned in to Iron Trip and Zion Radio today, our guest today is

Bill Sasser. He's pastor of Grace Church at Franklin in Franklin, Tennessee.

And we are discussing the Holy Bible hymn book, that's H -I -M, for the church, if you'd like to join us on the air.

Our email address is ChrisArndt at gmail .com. ChrisArndt at gmail .com. Before we go to any listener questions,

Bill, you were leaving off before our break with the point in time in your salvation testimony where you were baptized.

Yes, I really had a struggle. As I said to summarize,

I made a profession of faith when I was about 12. And that was it. It was a professional, but I didn't really have any saving faith.

I didn't know I was a sinner convicted by the Holy Spirit. I was not looking to Christ.

I was joining the church, walking an aisle. And then I made another profession of faith when

I was about 21 years old, I guess, trying to get what my wife had.

She had come to know the Lord. But that profession of faith, I really consistently sat out of the

Scripture and the Lord began to deal with me. I read all kinds of books. Besides the Bible, I remember reading

Joseph Elaine's Alarm to the Unconverted and other books like that.

I was a heavy, heavy conviction because I had been... You know, the further up you go, the further you have to go to fall to get back to where you were.

And I had gone way out in left field. And I came to know the

Lord, I believe, and Christ became my Lord, my Savior. And the man that was preaching the gospel that I heard, as I said earlier, the two or three things that impressed me was number one,

I knew he believed what he was saying and he spoke with authority. Number two, I knew if there was a

God, it was the God that he was preaching was the God of the Bible.

And of course, that is the sovereign God who has mercy on whom he will.

And that was the God that I heard. And that was the Christ that I came to know.

That was in the early 70s, late 60s, early 70s when all this was taking place.

And anyway, that's how I came to know the Lord. I've never departed from that profession or faith.

And later, I was known as a musician.

I had rubbed elbows with a lot of famous people. And so the local churches, of course, went crazy when they heard that I had come to know the

Lord, that I was a Christian. And so they began to ask me to come and give testimony. My wife also sang, and we still sing together some.

So that led into testimonial meetings and that led into Bible studies.

And then I felt that I wanted to learn more. So I enrolled in a school there.

I went to Georgia Southwestern College in America's Georgia. Began with a junior college, then went into Grace Bible College and seminary.

And the Lord just opened doors. I told you earlier how I got to Tennessee. So here we are now many, many years later, and the

Lord has always supplied and sustained us. But many years ago, that's how

I came to know the Lord. That's my journey in coming to know Christ. And tell us a little bit about that group that would now be categorized as a

Golden Holy group, but of course it wasn't back then in the 50s or 60s, that singing group that you were a part of.

What do you mean, in the music business? Yes. Well, I had a group that, we were a very talented group of musicians and they could play anything from Frank Sinatra to rock and roll, whatever.

I had a friend who called me and said, look, there are a couple of single acts that play for Dick Clark and they need somebody to back them up.

When the Beatles came to the United States, this started the group phenomenon again.

Before that, you had a lot of single artists. There was Presley, for example. You know, he didn't have a band.

After he became the king of rock and roll, of course he had professional musicians, professional singers, a whole show that they put together.

And so there was a fellow named Brian Hyland. Brian was from New York and he had had several top 10 hits and he needed someone to back him.

So my friend called me and said, would you be interested? And I said, yeah, we'll look at that. So to make a long story short, we ended up playing for the

Caravan of Stars tour, it was called. Dick Clark would take eight or 10, 12 top 10 groups that had hits and put them together and you would appear, we played all over the

United States. We played McCormick's Place in Chicago. At that time, it was the largest indoor auditorium in the world.

We played all of the major cities from LA to New York or whatever. And that's what

I was doing. You know, when my son was born in 1965, I told you earlier,

I felt convicted. I came off of the road because I knew even in my stupidity and spiritual ignorance of then,

I couldn't be any kind of a dad traveling on the road. So I came off of the road, of course.

We bought this little home and in the providence of God, we bought that home. We had to pass that church building every day and that's when we began to go over and hear the gospel.

And you had a duet called Will and Bill or Bill and Will or something like that? Yes, that was my own group.

We had a group called Bill and Will. In fact, someone, people always calling me.

There was a song I had called Going to the River. And back in those days, the

WLAC in Nashville, Tennessee was a clear channel station. And about 10 o 'clock at night until about four o 'clock in the morning, they would play rhythm and blues.

And probably 98 % of all of those artists were black artists.

You know, John Lee Hooker and Muddy Waters and a lot of folks that your audience probably never heard of.

But here I was, I was a white guy from Southwest Georgia, but we did rhythm and blues.

That was way before the Righteous Brothers came along, of course. They were known as white artists who sang bluesy songs.

So I signed with a label called the

Checker Label. There were several large artists on the Chess Label.

And Chess and Checker were two big labels. And we had this song called Going to the

River. Somebody called me just recently and said, hey, somebody over in Europe or some group in Europe has recorded that thing and released it.

And I think they were calling me because they thought maybe I might be missing out on some royalties or something.

And I said, well, I'm not worried about it. If it becomes a zillion dollar record, then we'll take it and play off our debt to the church here.

But other than that, my wife and I, in fact, I reacted against music after I was converted.

I really didn't have much to do with music in the church. And it's because I didn't understand that everything can be used for the glory of God.

Musical instruments and voices and whatever. And so, of course, my wife and I later recorded some albums.

We still do some singing in the church. And the Lord has blessed that.

So we try to use whatever gifts we have for His glory, for His honor.

Amen. And, folks, you can even hear a couple of the

Bill & Will songs that are still on YouTube. Or somebody had posted them.

Yeah. And, well, now it's time to at least start the subject at hand.

And we're going to be continuing it in its majority after the midway break because we only have a few minutes to start off the topic before our midway break.

But the Holy Bible hymn book for the church, and as I was saying before, that's a play on words that you chose.

People on the radio can't tell that unless they spell it out. But it's H -I -M book, not H -Y -M -N book.

Now tell us what you mean by that. Well, many, many years ago when the

New Covenant idea or approach to Scripture began to be put together, many of the brethren

I could mention, Chris, you know many of them. And we were scattered out throughout the

United States. But the Lord began to show us there's something else in the

Scripture so that we could have a hermeneutic that would justify our theological positions.

And so eventually they, you know, came up with a whole dictionary of terms.

Most of your listeners have probably heard the term Christocentric, which simply means that Christ is the central theme of the

Bible, of the Word of God. And then there's the term Christotelic, T -L -I -C,

Christ is the end or the goal of Scripture. And then there's Christotestic, the

Scriptures testify of the Lord Jesus Christ. I think of two passages of Scripture.

One is in Luke chapter 4, at the time that Christ went into the synagogue.

And there was delivered unto him a little book. It was the book of the scroll of Isaiah.

And the Scripture says that when it was given to him, apparently the local rabbis said, hey, and this is revealed in the

Bible in Luke 4, hey, you know who's here today? Who's that? Well, Jesus is here. Well, Jesus was a local fellow.

And so they said, well, we'll have Jesus read the Scripture. And so he stood up and he read what we would call

Isaiah 61, Isaiah 61. And he said, the Spirit of the

Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, to recover the sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the

Lord. And then the Scripture says he sat down and it says all the eyes were fashioned on him.

They were mesmerized by him. And he began to say to them, is this

Scripture fulfilled? And it is. And of course, that must have been quite a meeting because in fact, a short while later, because of some applications made by the

Lord from the Bible concerning those words, the synagogue, Sabbath worshipers were ready to murder him.

But what he did was, first of all, he said the Bible is the inspired word of God and that the

Bible is Christocentric. That is, he is the center of Scripture.

The Bible points to him. You may remember in John 5, verse 39, where he says, search the

Scriptures. In them you think you have eternal life. These are they which testify of me.

So what I began saying a long time ago to simplify what

I was preaching and teaching, I would say, look, what we're trying to tell you is that the

Bible is all about him, H -I -M. It is a hymn book.

He is the theme. He is the goal, the testimony of Scripture.

It's all about him from Genesis 1 -1 to Revelation 22 -21.

And so that is what we mean when I say the Bible is a hymn book.

And I often have our people stand up. I think I mentioned this to you, and repeat after me.

The Bible is a hymn book. It talks about Israel. It mentions the church.

It's a book of history. It has law, but it's about him. That's the theme of Scripture.

And that's just a succinct way, a simple way, of reducing it all down to the central issue in Scripture.

The Bible is about him. Amen. Well, we're going to our midway break.

This is the longer -than -normal break that we have every day because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle because they, by FCC regulations, have to localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. They air this program twice a day in a prerecorded format in morning drive and then in the evening, 8 to 10 p .m.

as well. And while they air their own localized public service announcements and other things that localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, we air our globally heard commercials. And so please be patient during this longer -than -normal break.

Please write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them because without your patronage, our advertisers will certainly, or at least

I'm presuming, they would not remain very long as our advertisers, which means, subsequently, we would go off the air because we depend upon the dollars that come through our advertisers in order to exist.

So please try to patronize them as often as you can. Write down the information to further ensure that you will do that. Also write down questions for our guest,

Bill Sasser, to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away,

God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with more of Bill Sasser. I believe you'll also find

World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes biweekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

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Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ, staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. I'm Pastor Brandon Scalf of Cruciform Bible Church in Indianapolis, Indiana, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chris Hatton of Grace Chapel in Sanford, Florida, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Jack Wilke, Minister of the Forney Church of Christ in Forney, Texas, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Mike Wachowski of Westminster Chapel in Ball Ground, Georgia, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Cooley of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Williston, Massachusetts, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Brock Evans from Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tom Lassner of Crispy Baptist Church in Big Spring, Texas, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the

NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com That's nasbible .com to place your order.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and my friend Chris Arnzen and I are excited to be attending another

G3 conference together in Atlanta, Georgia Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th on a theme that is vitally important to all of us,

Worship Matters. I'll be on the speaking lineup with Eric Thomas, Joel Beakey, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Phil Johnson, Tom Askell, Votie Balcom, and the world -renowned preacher, teacher, and author,

John MacArthur. A fascinating new addition to the roster is Kosti Hinn, nephew of the notorious false teacher,

Benny Hinn. Kosti has repented of the word -faith heresies of his youth and is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and cessationist in California.

Come join me and Chris Arnzen at G3 2020, January 16th through the 18th in Atlanta by registering at g3conference .com

That's g3conference .com See you there! I'm so grateful to our sovereign

God that while manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron, a major Bible conference, I providentially met

Pastor Andrew Smith of Christ Reformed Community Church just south of Jacksonville, Florida right off I -95 in St.

Johns County. Andrew is certainly the kind of pastor that is a perfect match for my radio show and has already proven to be an ideal guest.

Christ Reformed Community Church shares my conviction that God is both creator and sustainer of the universe.

He rules and reigns providentially over our lives. He directs not only the historical events of the world but also the personal events of individuals.

I agree with Christ Reformed Community Church that the very purpose of the Church is to make disciples, that we are tasked with the responsibility to evangelize locally, nationally, and globally, and that we are to equip the saints for the work of service.

Unlike the man -centered seeker -sensitive movement, they do not gauge the success of biblical discipleship by how many people are in a church but by the faithful ministry of God's Word and Gospel.

For more details on Christ Reformed Community Church visit ChristReformedCC .com

That's ChristReformedCC .com Or call 904 -955 -9881

That's 904 -955 -9881

Tell Pastor Andrew that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm Pastor Andrew Smith and I'd like to urge you to consider joining

Christ Reformed Community Church of St. John's, Florida in financially supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. This is

Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers that strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org That's gracechurchatfranklin .org

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget folks, with all the holiday gift -giving needs that you will have with Christmas coming up and we have

Valentine's Day before you know it approaching and other things that usually lend themselves to giving gifts, why not give gifts that truly have eternal significance?

Gifts from solid -ground -books .com Remember that every time you purchase a book from Solid Ground Christian Books you help further ensure a longer life for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio because they are a very valuable key sponsor financially of this program.

That's solid -ground -books .com Before we return to our interview with Bill Sousa we just have a couple of events that we have to announce.

First of all, for all men in ministry leadership whether you are a pastor, an elder, and by the way

I think they're the same office, a deacon, a parachurch leader, if you're a man in ministry leadership, please, if you can travel to Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, specifically

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, or if you live nearby there, please attend the

Iron Sharpens Iron Pastor's Luncheon on Thursday, January 9th from 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. and that is going to feature for the first time our guest speaker

Justin Peters. Justin is a phenomenal brother in Christ. Perhaps many of you have already seen and heard him.

He was one of the key speakers at the Strange Fire Conference at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, the church where John MacArthur is the pastor.

Justin is someone who was born with cerebral palsy and early on as a young man sought the healing of Word of Faith teachers and all sorts of Pentecostal and charismatic self -proclaimed faith healers which failed.

After becoming a much more solid biblically faithful Christian, he has made it a part of his mission in life to expose the charlatans and the frauds and the deceivers that really seriously damage the faith and life of many

Christians. In fact, they are leading many self -deceived people through the gates of hell through their false teachings in the

Word of Faith movement. Well, that is primarily other than proclaiming the gospel itself.

That is primarily his mission in life is to expose those faith, Word of Faith heretics.

So, if you'd like to see Justin Peters and hear him live in person at the Iron Chip and Zion Radio Pastor's Luncheon, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com and put in the subject line

Pastor's Luncheon and as long as you are a man in ministry leadership we will register your name under that registration absolutely free.

And just to let you know, not only will you be getting to hear Justin Peters for free and getting a great lunch for free and having a good time of fun and fellowship for free, you'll also be going home with hundreds of dollars worth of free books, a sack of free books, brand new books.

These are books that I have selected from publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom and each publisher donates 100 copies of a book

I select or a title I select from them so that every man who attends can walk home or drive home with each of these books so each man is going home with dozens of free books.

Absolutely free. This was the brainchild of my precious late wife Julie in the 1990s.

She wanted to treat Men in Ministry to a free lunch near Christmas time where nothing was being charged for, nothing was being sold, there was no gimmick, no hidden agenda, it's just to bless

Men in Ministry. So if you'd like to join me for this free event January 9th, it's Thursday, January 9th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, please send me an email chrisarnsen at gmail dot com chrisarnsen at gmail dot com and put

Passengers Lunch in the subject line. Then after that, the long -awaited G3 conference is finally here again.

This is just a spectacular conference. G3 stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory.

It's being held Thursday through Saturday, January 16th through January 18th at the

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta connected by rail, a short rail trip to the

Atlanta airport. And as always, the G3 conference has an absolutely mind -blowing, long, and deep roster of speakers, including

Stephen J. Lawson, including Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, including

Phil Johnson, the executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry, Grace to You, including

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, including Stephen J. Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late

R .C. Sproul, including Dr.

Tom Askell, executive director of Founders Ministries, the

Calvinistic ministry within the Southern Baptist Convention. There are many more on that roster, and of course,

John MacArthur himself has been added to the lineup. I would go, if it was just John MacArthur alone speaking.

If you want to join me there, Thursday through Saturday, January 16th through the 18th, 2020, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com, and I urge you to register, if this applies to you, register for an exhibitor's booth, because there are over 5 ,000 people there every year.

With John MacArthur on the lineup this year, I think they're going to have over 6 ,000 people. And if you have a business, or a power church organization, or a special event, having an exhibitor's booth there will be very valuable.

Go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and register either to attend or also to man an exhibitor's booth, and tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I apologize for constantly muting my mic, but I am sneezing and coughing my brains out. I'm still sick. Also, last but not least, don't forget that if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for your home and your family and your church, and you have extra money collecting interest, you have extra money for non -essential things, recreational things, the theater, going out to dinner in a fancy restaurant, sporting events, movies, concerts, you know, that kind of thing.

Please consider, seriously, taking some of that money and giving it to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio because we are in urgent need of your finances.

We haven't even paid all the bills that we have awaiting for us in the days ahead in December, and we are really in a desperate situation.

We plead with you, please, if you love the show and you don't want it to go away and you have extra money, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that way.

You can also mail in a check via snail mail to the address that will appear on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com.

We thank God for all of you who have been sending in checks and also donating over the

Internet application on the website ironsharpensironradio .com and clicking support. We thank folks like Bill Sasser, my guest today, and Grace Church at Franklin, who has sponsored this show for a year with advertising and also, as on top of that, added a monthly pledge to donate every single month.

We would hope that more of you would join Pastor Bill in that tradition if indeed you love the show and you want it to remain on the air.

As I said, never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church where you are a member to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Never do that and never put your family in financial jeopardy to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio if you are having a hard time making ends meet.

But, as I said, if you are blessed financially beyond, above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, please help us if you love us and you want us to stick around.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com Click support. Then click, click to donate now.

If you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God, please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. I have helped people all over the world in the audience of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio find biblically faithful churches wherever they are, where they have joined and become members, or where they have visited on vacation, or where they have referred these churches to family, friends, and loved ones in those areas who do not have a church already.

So please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. And also, if you want to advertise with us, we certainly could seriously and urgently need or use your advertising dollars.

If you're advertising something compatible with what we believe, you don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to believe, you need to be promoting something that's compatible with what

I believe, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question for our guest today,

Bill Sasser. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city, and state and your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

Pastor Bill Sasser, we are now back with our discussion and we have a listener, Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who has a question for you.

He asks, in the 21st century, and perhaps even beginning in last century, there has been a huge problem amongst evangelicals where theology and doctrine does not matter at all.

They will say things like, let's just lift up the name of Jesus and love one another as brothers in Christ, and they are either consciously or unconsciously linking arms with heretics and apostates and those who deny the very gospel itself, and sometimes even with those that don't even profess to be

Christians at all. And on the other end of the extreme, we have people who are so intensely concentrated on the finer things of theology that they are disfellowshipping and barring fellowship from people who are truly our brothers in Christ, who may disagree with us on things that are truly important, but at the same time they are not worthy of separating us in fellowship.

How do we maintain a balance when those two things exist? That's an excellent question, and I think, of course, first of all, the most biblical kind of teaching, and I have been a participant in all of it, is a verse -by -verse teaching, going through books of the

Bible. That does two things. Number one, it prevents the speaker or the teacher, the pastor, the elder, from just simply majoring on favorite doctrines, favorite themes, and secondly, it causes everyone in the audience to have to consider every verse of the

Scripture. Now, I personally believe that the reason we are having those problems, and you may remember,

Chris, this almost sounds like something that I said recently when we spoke, and that is that people are so busy serving

Jesus that they don't realize, like Mary and Joseph, that Jesus was left behind.

When Joseph and Mary left Jerusalem, they didn't even realize for three days that Christ was not even there, for a whole day,

I'm sorry, for a whole day, and it took them three days to find Him. So I think sometimes we're so organized and we're so busy and we're so tuned to the finer points of theology that we have missed our

Lord Jesus Christ in the sense of being in the body and having fellowship one with another. And as the brother said, those two extremes, one is, well, let's just lift up the name of Jesus.

I think teaching the Scripture, I think being biblical and teaching the

Bible militates against both of those extremes.

In other words, we can't just say, okay, I'm going to deal with a certain...

I remember years ago when I was at the John Bunyan Conference and I had to teach. The other teacher was

Dr. S. Lewis Johnson. I'm sure you remember him. Yes, I was there when Dr. S.

Lewis Johnson preached at the Bunyan Conference and actually had the privilege of having lunch with him there before he went home to be with the

Lord. What a sweet man and what a scholar. He was a scholar before he was ever converted. And it was

John Reisinger who was the Lord's instrument that used to show

Dr. Johnson what we call sovereign grace. But S. Lewis Johnson was a prime example of what

I'm talking about. He taught through the Scripture. In the years that I've been here, I've taught through most of the major books of Scripture with the exception of the book of Revelation.

I teach passages from the book of Revelation, but I haven't taught through the book.

But here's what I'm saying. Topical studies, if one feels impressed to deal with something as a pastor, a pastor usually has their hand or their finger on the pulse of the congregation and they may be led to deal with some topical message.

But I think to answer that brother's question, the way to prevent just talking about lifting up Jesus without defining who

Jesus is, the Scriptures define who He is. If we teach the Scriptures, we will see

Him. And that's what I was, what I said earlier when we closed. This is a hymn book where all the roads lead to Him, all the prophets lead to Him, the law points to Him.

Scripture. And then the other end, we need to teach the

Scripture to simply militate against dealing with systematics.

I realize that the term theology, and I guess everyone in the audience probably knows this, it's made up of two terms, theos, which is

God, and logos, which is word. So theology is the Word of God. But most of the time, people deal with systematic theology.

They start dealing with various and sundry splitting of hairs and systematics.

The Lord Jesus Christ said that except you become converted and become as little children, you shall otherwise enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Bible says that the common people heard our Lord Jesus Christ gladly.

They couldn't understand the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the doctors of the law, who apparently talked over their heads, but they could understand them.

So to answer that question once more, I think Biblical teaching through the Scriptures is the only way, prayerfully praying and looking to the

Lord, prayerfully teaching through the Scriptures is the true Biblical teaching exposition of the

Scripture rather than just dealing with topics or dealing with themes. And I think that prevents over -theologizing the

Scripture, getting into systematic splitting hairs where people don't have an idea, they don't have a clue of what you're talking about, or the other thing of just saying, well, we're worshiping the

Lord and we really don't even know who He is. Right, you're talking about, well, you just briefly mentioned it, exposition or expository preaching where you will take entire books of the

Scripture and go chapter by chapter each Lord's Day to exegete whatever passage you happen to be arriving at on that day.

And it prevents you, unless you are involved in eisegesis, where you want to insert your favorite topics into every chapter and passage of the

Bible, if you're not doing that, you're going to be at least being a further prevention from hobby -horsing and from, perhaps, just constantly repeating and regurgitating your favorite topic.

That's right. There are four supportive aspects of what we call hermeneutics, the interpretation of the

Bible. One is the Scripture interprets Scripture. In other words, the Bible is the only infallible rule of the interpretation of Scripture.

The only infallible rule is Scripture itself. It's fine to quote me, and research me, and read after me, and I do that.

Everyone does that. We probably all ought to do that. But the Scripture is the bottom line.

The second principle is determining the words of meaning. You know, that's electrographical study, the electrography, the denotative, connotative meaning of the words.

Then you've got the grammatical, historical interpretation, trying to learn the grammar of the languages of the

Bible. And then you have to go back and look at the background of circumstances and conditions and framework. All these are theological things, but the pastor or the teacher should have mastered those at least to a degree that he can exegete, you know, teach the

Bible in a verse -by -verse manner. I really think that is the only way to protect ourselves and the congregation against getting bogged down in some of these things that this brother has mentioned.

That was a very, very good question. Now, knowing how wise and how biblically literate and how, dare

I say, brilliant you are, brother, I know that you're not talking about dumbing down the

Bible, acting as if every Sunday you have nothing but a congregation filled with either lost people or new

Christians. I'm assuming you believe that we are not to dumb down the

Bible and we are to have our hearers digging deeper and deeper into the unsearchable riches of Scripture to learn more and not only to be fed milk but the meat of the

Word as well. I think that's exactly right. And again, I say, to me, the most difficult teaching is the most biblical teaching.

And that is, I have to do all of the things that I just mentioned. I have to, it takes me hours and hours and hours to teach for 45 minutes on Sunday.

I spend a lot of time studying because I think that's my calling. We have other men in the church, deacons and elders that handle a lot of the other things.

I also do a lot of visiting. I try to visit the people. But to get back to the teaching, yes, we certainly don't want to dumb down the

Scripture as you say. We don't want to do that. We want to open up the exegete of the

Scripture. And as I said earlier, the reason I believe that the Bible or the hymn book,

I mean, I could quote Scriptures to you as you could to me. John's Gospel chapter 1 says that God is revealed in the

Lord Jesus Christ. And that's John 1, 17, and 18. And the word that is used there, the translated reveal, is the word for exegete.

In other words, the Lord Jesus Christ is the exegesis of God. All we'll ever know about God is revealed in the

Lord Jesus Christ. And I think if we teach the Scripture, I think we'll get deep enough.

There's plenty of things in there. But the point is having somebody that's laboring in the word that doesn't just gloss over it, but labors in the word and in doctrine to feed the flock and that is necessary.

And so yes, I agree with you. We ought to get deeper and get higher and more and more of Christ.

Yeah, in fact, there are churches today, and this is nothing really very new, but it's just more,

I think, dominant in Christendom today, that stick with the bare minimum of Christianity.

And what happens is you have people, even like Mormons like Glenn Beck, when they hear constantly regurgitated over and over and over and over again, nothing more than God loves you,

Jesus died for you, accept Christ and live forever. If that's all that you're being told,

Mormons can say, well, I basically believe that. Of course, they have a different dictionary. They redefine who

God is himself. They believe that they can become gods if they're faithful Mormons and all kinds of heretical and blasphemous things.

But if you understand what I'm saying, when people just stick with the basics and never move on from there into the meat of the word, you're going to have people thinking that they are right with God because they think they agree with you.

I think your message will determine your method. In other words, what is the goal?

If my goal, is to have professions of faith, to have people walk in the aisle,

I'm going to adapt certain methods for doing that. But if I believe that God himself must reveal himself to people, and that he does this through the true and spiritual exposition of scripture, then

I'm going to leave the saving of sinners to him rather than me trying to save people, trying to talk them into something or out of something.

I tell our church all the time, I said look, if a man can talk you into a profession of faith, somebody else can talk you out of it.

So I think that teaching the scripture, getting in the scripture, being immersed in the scripture, being a biblical scriptural church, the goal must be the glory of the

Lord, not just, and here I have to tread carefully, not just the salvation of souls, and here's what

I mean by that. I know that the Lord is not glorified in any greater way than through the salvation of a soul, but my aim is his glory.

I'm going through, I mean, do you know how many converts Jeremiah had in his entire ministry?

He didn't have one convert, not one convert, but he was faithful in teaching what

God gave him, and the Lord said one of these days, Jeremiah, they'll know that there was a prophet among you, among them, that I sent you to teach to them.

It sounds to me like you are referring to 1 Corinthians chapter 3 verse 7, so then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

Well, I didn't think of that passage, but that's certainly applicable to what we're talking about, and this brother's question, of course, is going to gender a lot of conversation, and it should, because those are two burdens that I have had for a long time.

We don't want to just tiptoe through the tulips. We're dealing with serious things here.

We're dealing with the glory of God. We're dealing with the souls of men, and so we want to go to the scripture.

We want to stay in the scripture. I'll tell you what. You probably remember this story, but Charles Spurgeon, the famous English preacher,

I believe he passed away, went to be with the Lord in 1892, but he once gave his young preacher boys a challenge.

He gave them a few minutes to select a text and develop an outline and make a few remarks, and then after each man had finished,

Mr. Spurgeon had to make a five -minute presentation, and then he would critique it.

So when he was through that particular time, one of the young men came up to him and said,

Pastor, may I ask you a question? He said, yes. He said, I could tell by the look on your face that something was missing in my presentation.

He said, did I speak well? Spurgeon said, you spoke well. He said, did I speak up loud enough?

Yes, I did. He said, did I clearly say what

I was saying? All of these things. And he said, yes. He said, what was wrong? What was wrong with my presentation?

Spurgeon said, there was no Christ in your message. And the young man said, well, Christ was not in the text.

And Spurgeon said, Christ is in every text, and it's your job to find Him and to present

Him. And I think that's what we have to be doing. We have to be preaching the Lord Jesus Christ.

I told a friend of mine years ago who was struggling with some of the very things that we're talking about now.

I said, look, the gospel, the whole gospel is larger than three points.

That is, that God chose some people, Christ died for them, and the Spirit calls them.

I believe those three things, but there are other things that the

Lord teaches us and must share with us so that we don't just become worn out records, broken records, like you say, harping on the same thing every week.

And the only kind of pastor I know that does that is a pastor that doesn't have the glory of God as his objective.

You may think he does, but he's more in line with trying to get people in the church or keep them in the church.

I've never worried about those things. The church that I've been pastor of all these years is not concerned with quantity, how many, but with quality.

What kind of gospel are we preaching? And we're trying to preach and teach Christ in the

Word of God. Amen. Let me just go over quickly a couple of things you said to clarify them and make sure that nobody misunderstands you.

As far as finding Christ in every passage of Scripture, at the same time, I'm sure you would agree that people have to be careful not to be practicing eisegesis when they're importing things into the text that aren't there.

Harold Camping found Christ in every text, or at least he thought he did, but he was clearly involved many times in eisegesis where he was inventing what the passages were meaning to say and becoming very cryptic and having codes and mystery ways of finding out what the text meant because Christ was really in that text, even if it wasn't readily evident.

So you're not talking about that kind of thing? No, I think, you know, this is what I believe. I think that the sun,

I can make a study of the sun that gives us light during the day and I can come to some passages of Scripture that speak of Christ as the light of the world and all of the things that are related to that.

I can look at a daisy on a hill that's blooming, nobody sees it, but it's blooming for the glory of God.

I think everything on a hill is of Him, for Him, through Him, and to Him.

And I think that includes the Scripture. But you're right, actually, Jesus is bringing things into a text that's not in the text.

But in the context, I don't think you can deal with any Scripture and not find

Him. And I forgot the other thing I was going to bring up, but if it's important enough,

God will recall it to my memory. We're going to go to our final break right now.

When we come back, I just want you to speak briefly to assure our listeners that you're not talking about dumbing down the

Bible. You are the home of the Providence Theological Institute of New Covenant Theology, ptinct .org.

So I want to just have you briefly talk about that, and then we'll continue with our theme,

The Bible, the Hymnbook for the Church. And if anybody has any questions, we do have a couple of people waiting online to have their questions asked and answered, so be patient with us.

We'll get to you as soon as possible. If anybody wants to get in line behind them, send in your email now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the U .S .A. And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with more of our subject and Bill Sasson. One sure way all

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We are now back with our guest today, Bill Sasser. And before we go on to the remaining part of the program, explaining what you mean by the

Bible being the hymn book for the church, why don't you let our listeners know a little bit about the

Institute, the Bible Institute, Providence Institute of New Covenant Theology, that where you are the home of the

New Covenant Theology. And you mentioned

Dr. Willem, Dr. Gentry, Tony Costa, Dr.

Costa, all of these brothers come and speak at this conference. In fact, if I may so, so this year, it will begin on Sunday, the 21st,

Sunday evening, June 21st, at the and go through Wednesday, the 24th.

And so if anyone out there is interested in attending that conference, all they have to do is go to our website, gracechurchatfranklin .org,

get in touch with us by one way or the other, and we'll give them any information they need. The Providence Theological Institute has a board, and the burden of PTI is to make sure that to teach, to promote the scriptures through the

New Covenant perspective. That all of the scriptures have been fulfilled in Christ.

All of the promises are in him, yea and amen. Everything points to him.

The law points to him and it's fulfilled in him. The prophets are all fulfilled in him.

Everything is in him, and that's why I say the Bible is a hymn book.

So PTI seeks to promote a Christo -centric teaching showing that, which

I simplify by calling the Bible a hymn book, H -I -M book. And the website is p -t -i -n -c -t -dot -org, p -t -i -n -c -t -dot -org, in addition to the

Grace Church at Franklin website, gracechurchatfranklin .org, gracechurchatfranklin .org.

We hope that you look into that and that you institution more thoroughly after this program.

We do have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says,

I assume that something under the heading of the Bible being a hymn book,

H -I -M, for the church is that we are not to approach the

Bible like Joel Olsteen was, merely looking for how we may benefit from the teachings of the

Bible, whether we are repentant believers or blood -bought regenerate Christians or not.

Yeah, I once heard Olsteen interviewed by Larry King. Larry King is

Jewish and he is not a converted man.

He does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, apparently, at least lately I haven't heard that he believes that.

And I heard him interviewing Olsteen many, many years ago. And he asked him, what about repentance and repentance and what about all these things?

And Olsteen said, and I wouldn't say this if I didn't hear him. I heard him. He said, oh, I don't deal with those things.

He said our message is about being positive and being happy and praising the

Lord and those kinds of things. Of course, that is very, very, that's heresy is what that is.

That's just not teaching the scripture. The Lord Jesus Christ is not in his fullness.

And the scriptures in their fullness must be taught all of it. And as I keep saying, we may approach the

Bible. I remember Cornelius Vantill. Did you know who he is? Oh, yeah. All right.

Well, Vantill used to talk about our being born with a certain set of glasses. And if I say the sky is blue, but you have on green glasses, it's going to look green to you.

What happens? We are born with a certain set And we have to have another set of glasses. And the way we approach the scripture is as the word of God.

Not this, you mentioned earlier, dumbing down the scripture. Personally, that's what

I think Joel Osteen does. I don't know if you ever heard his dad preach. His dad was a sounder, more sound preacher than he is.

But no, I certainly do not subscribe to that, to just dumbing down the scripture.

Happiness comes from the word happening. Whatever is happening. But the Bible speaks about joy.

The Bible speaks about salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. And we can't know what that salvation is.

We can't know Him who is salvation. First John 5 20 says this is the true

God. This is eternal life. We can't know that if we don't present Him in the fullest biblical way.

I don't know if that answers the question or not. But I think it does. And of course when you said

John Osteen, Joel Osteen's father was more sound than him, you set the bar very low because he might have been sounder than his son, but he was certainly a heretic and hated the devil.

Well, yeah, they were Pentecostal. He was in the early days of what has now become a mushrooming

Pentecostal charismatic movement throughout the nation. And I remember hearing a lot of these pastors and preachers now that have shifted horses in the middle of the stream.

They are coming back and saying some other things now rather than saying, well, you can't know if you have the

Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues. A lot of those now have blocked that out and thrown that out and coming back.

I mean, I want men to come to know the Lord, but I agree with you.

No, Osteen himself, his son, Joel Osteen, when his father died, they didn't know what they were going to do.

And Joel Osteen was the guy that handled the cameras and the audio, the audio video. And he was pushed into that position,

I believe, by people in his family. Right. Yeah, it's kind of comical when you think about how opposite in manner

John Osteen was because he was a grunchy, or should I say grumpy, almost

Scrooge -like character behind the pulpit, whereas his son is always beaming with a smile. But his father certainly did hate the doctrines of grace.

But we have time enough left for you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Well, if you approach the Scripture, you have several different ways of approaching the

Scripture. This is a generalization. This is not anything specific. But you could approach the

Scripture. I hear a lot of people say, look, if you want to know what God's will is, if you want to know what He's doing in history, then you need to look in the

Bible and look for Israel. And then I hear other people say, no, the Bible is a law book.

You need to approach the Bible, the way to understand the Bible, see it as a book that sets forth the will of God in a forensic framework.

The late Russius John Rustini, I'm sure you've heard of him. He repeatedly said in a work he had called the

Institutes of Biblical Law, that the Bible must be seen as God's law word, and that was the key to his understanding of the word.

He said the Bible is for the government of the people, by the people, for the people. Of course, under grace, we believe that the law is done away with in the sense of being a means of being governed by it.

We don't take men to Moses in order for them to find out their sinners.

Then we drive them to Christ by preaching Moses to them. Then we take them back to Moses to show them how to live.

So we don't approach the Bible through Israel. We don't approach the Bible through the law. We don't approach the

Bible through the church. We approach the Bible through Christ. And I would say that when you read the

Bible, I would pray before I read the Bible, and I would pray for the Lord to show you his son in the scripture.

Regardless of where we may be theologically, this is life eternal that they may know thee the only true

God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. I am the way. I am the truth.

I am the life. No man comes unto the Father but by me. And so I would preach the

Bible and I would want to be basically fundamental in saying that I would look for Christ because,

Chris, you can know all kinds of things theologically. You can know the middle verse in the

Bible. I know a guy that used to be in a certain group, and he said, hey, if they believe that they can say, if a man can say that Moses crept up on the to Jesus, well, they're probably called to preach.

So I'm saying that we need to stay in the scripture. We need to be biblical

Christians. We need to realize that salvation is knowing Christ.

It's not just knowing about him. It is having a relationship with him.

And that's what he said. He said that there won't be many who would say, we did this, we did that, we did the other.

And he said, yeah, but I never knew you. I never had a relationship with you. You never entered into that relationship with me.

And I believe that that has to come by divine revelation, and I think that revelation is by the

Spirit of God through the inspired Word of God, which Word the

Spirit himself inspired. And, you know, so he's the author of scripture.

Amen. And remember, folks, if you want to find out more about Grace Church at Franklin, go to gracechurchatfranklin .org

and the Word of God is spelled out, A -T, it's not the symbol, gracechurchatfranklin .org.

I want to thank you so much, Pastor Bill, for being one of our newest sponsors of this program, for thinking so highly of it that you thought your church should invest financially in this show, not only for a whole year up front financially, but also monthly on top of that as an added gift.

I cannot even explain to you in the English language how grateful I am to you and to God for you.

You actually rescued Iron Sharpens Iron Radio earlier in the month out of a very dangerous financial pit that we were in.

I had an empty wallet and about $10 in my bank account, if I remember correctly, and you and Grace Church at Franklin rescued us out of that by God's grace and mercy, using you as His tool, and I will forever be in your debt for that.

Well, Chris, I know you're running out of time, but I want to say to everybody out there, I hope they will pray for you and that they will consider supporting you.

And if I had to leave them with a final word, I would be that. Support this radio ministry that stands for the sovereign grace of God without apology.

Amen. And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.