Monergism vs. Synergism

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 -4602 or toll -free across the united states.

It's 1 -877 -753 -3341 And now with today's topic here is james white

I ignore those phone numbers. We're not gonna be taking phone calls today. It is time for our debate with dr

Michael brown here on the dividing line. We're starting five minutes early so I can get the introductions in Uh so that we have the full 90 minutes because of the format of the program

We're gonna need all 90 minutes Many of you heard, uh, the first two programs we did on dr.

Brown's program Uh, and the discussion we had then we decided it'd be good to look at specific texts

And do so we have a little more time, but I do emphasize the term little because here's the format for today's

Discussion and debate, uh today. We're looking at the three texts that I have chosen john, 635 through 45

Romans 8 28 through about 9, uh, 24 or so And ephesians chapter 1 verses 4 through 14

Uh, each one of us will have eight minutes eight Minutes my friends is not a lot of time when you're listening to a boring sermon

It might seem like an eternity, but it will not seem like much time today at all Uh, we will each have eight minutes to provide our exegesis of the assigned text then we'll have four minutes each

To ask questions of the other we will stay in the order in which we're going i'm going first this time around Next time around michael will go first.

We'll just keep that order. That's the only way to keep things straight Uh and to keep the time frames, uh, correct as well

So we'll have four minutes to ask questions of the other on the specific statements made in our exegesis, obviously not about what we think about, uh, you know, obamacare or anything else

And then we will have three minutes each, uh to make concluding statements on each of the texts

If my math is good, which it generally is not that should be half an hour per text Which means 90 minutes for the three texts that we will be covering

Uh, I know it's not a lot of time, but it's uh more than you get in most webcasts and radio programs

I can assure you of that Now dr Michael brown is founder and president of icn ministries.

He is the president of the fire school of ministry Uh, he is an old testament semitic scholar holding a phd in near eastern languages and literatures from new york university

He has served as a professor at trinity uh fuller Denver and king seminary regent university school of divinity as well uh those of you who heard the initial encounters that we had know that they were

I think done in a God honoring way we didn't compromise our positions, but we also did not condemn

Either one the other to the flames, uh, which unfortunately is very common in these types of situations

And so our our desire and our goal today is to clarify not muddy the issues obviously you are the

Judges of this debate as always must be in this situation Uh, of course fundamentally god is the judge of our hearts as we do the debates

But you are the judges of what we present And it is our desire that the body of christ be edified cause to think about these things think these things through for themselves

In fact, i'm not sure if I can say think it through. Uh, dr. Brown may have that particular phrase copyright.

I'm not sure uh, but uh, hopefully he'll forgive me if I use it, uh, because that is uh,

A documentary tv show jewish outreach program called think it through that's uh, uh, he does that's why I said that anyway

Uh, let's go ahead and bring uh, dr. Brown on uh, michael, are you uh, are you ready? Oh james, i'm very ready and i'm thrilled to be on the program with you

You know the utmost respect I have for you and your scholarship and debating techniques and my prayer has been the same

Let god be glorified and his people be edified through our interaction. That's my my desire as well.

And of course, uh, Someone channel was asking if they'd call in ask you about melchizedek and I said sure you can call his program right after this one's over I'm, sure he'd be happy to talk to you about melchizedek all you want at that particular point in time

But uh with that believe it or not, we've used up the five minute introduction So, uh, we're going to start in canonical order john chapter six

Uh will be my text and so with that i'm going to go ahead and reach over and uh, go ahead and uh, that's right

We'll we'll bring dr. Brown up when when i'm done speaking and uh, we're gonna go ahead and get started with the debate

Uh right now with my eight minute Uh exegesis of john chapter six

In john chapter six, of course We have the longest chapter in the gospel of john after the feeding of the five thousand There have been men who have been looking for jesus.

Uh, they are actually seeking jesus They find jesus in the synagogue capernaum. These are called

God seekers they're seeking after jesus himself and yet After jesus announces to them that he is the bread of life

And that the one coming to him will not hunger and the one who believes in him will not thirst jesus says in verse 36 Of john chapter six, but I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe he identifies these men as unbelievers

And the rest must be seen is explaining why it is that these men who want to make him king Are going to by the end of this chapter walk away because jesus is going to continually focus them upon himself as a source of spiritual life

It is in the context of saying you do not believe you are unbelievers verse 36 The jesus says all that the father gives me will come to me and the one coming to me

I will never cast out now. We all love that statement the one coming to me I will never cast out But it is part of a sentence the reason that he will not cast out

The one coming to him is because the father has given them to him Notice it says all that the father gives me will come to me.

Now. There is a clear and basic rule of grammar here the coming To the son is predicated upon the giving of the father which action comes first That the father has given someone to the son or that they are coming to the son very clearly

It is the father's action of giving to the son that results in every single one thus given

Coming to the son anyone who believes in in a libertarian free will position needs to be able to explain how it is

That the father can give someone to the son and everyone thusly given will come to the son

But then the son says I will never no never error subjunctive of strong denial cast out the one coming to me.

Why? Because I have come down out of heaven not in order to do My will but the will of him who sent me once again the unity of the father and the son

Expressed in verse 38 and then what is the will of the one who sent him verse 39? This is the will of the one who sent me in order that of all that he has given me.

I lose none of it Notice now it's it it's a group the neuter wrapping up the entire group.

I lose none of it But raise it up on the last day Being raised up in the last day in john, especially in john 6 used of receiving eternal life

The will of the father of the son is that the son? Lose none of those are given to him here.

We have jesus Needing to be a perfect savior if it is the father of the will if it's the will of the father for the son

That he not lose any of those that are given to him. What must that mean about the power of the son as savior?

He must have the capacity. He must have the power to save Perfectly.

I do not understand how that can be a synergistic salvation Since there may be one there may be two there may be a million who would say no who would not cooperate

Whatever else it might be The result would be that jesus would lose some of those that are given to him

But no the will the one who sent him is that of all that have been given him he lose none But raise them up on the last day for this is the will of my father

In order that everyone looking upon present tense participle looking upon the son

And believing in him might have eternal life and I will raise him up in the last day Notice the raising up in the last day.

Who is it who looks upon the son? Who is it who's believing upon the son? The ones who have been given to the son by the father the ones who are coming to him as a result

As a result of this teaching. However, the jews are gungus mooing. They are grumbling Who who this man make himself out to be we we know his father and his mother

How does he say he's come down out of heaven? The grumbling goes on jesus answers them in verse 43 and says do not grumble amongst yourselves

No one is able udice dunatai. No one has the capacity the ability to come to me unless Something happens unless there is a fulfillment and what is that fulfillment?

No one is able to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him

And I will raise him up on the last day Now, please note something about the text

Jesus does not seek to stop their grumbling on the basis of oh, you don't understand or oh,

I don't want you to be offended No, he stops their grumbling by saying something that's even more offensive to them in fact

If you look at the language here You'll see that at the end of john chapter 6 what offends the people it causes them to walk away

Is jesus is repeating this he's repeating this very point over and over again No one can come to me unless it has been granted to him of the father and men find that to be highly

Offensive they want salvation to be that which they are in control of they can come to jesus on their own grounds.

No Jesus says very very clearly. No one is able to come to me unless The father who sent me draws him

And I will raise him on the last day now Who's he going to raise in the last day those the father gave to him in verse 37?

Those that's the father's will that he lose none of them in verses 38 and 39 And so who is it that the father draws the son the same group the elect of god are the ones that are in in Line here.

Remember he's explaining. Why are these men? Unbelievers, why are these individuals who are not willing to truly believe in jesus christ, even though they've rowed boats across the lake

They've they've sought him out yet He recognizes that they are not seeking him out for spiritual nourishment

But for physical nourishment and so we need to take very seriously jesus's words No one is able to come to me unless something happens and the that which happens is not some kind of common grace situation

Because it says unless the the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up in the last day

Most of the interpretations i've seen in this text to try to get around the very particularity of this drawing of the elect unto christ

Try to say well Yeah, but there's two hymns here Unless the father draws him and then

I will raise him up at the last day as a different hymn Because you see it's the same hymn And so if the father draws everyone to christ then everyone's going to be raised up the last day in salvation uh, if it's only a particular people that are drawn to christ, then you have reformed theology and so many people try to drive a wedge right into the middle of the text here and say well

Everyone's drawn frequently jumping to john chapter 12 in a completely different context And then only certain people are raised up because they have added their their own personal faith

Whatever else it might be verse 45 then just amplifies this saying it is written in the prophets They shall be taught of god everyone hearing from the father and learning from the father is coming to me

Here's another description. What is involved in the drawing of the father? It involves hearing and learning and everyone who hears and learns from the father not everyone who chooses to accept something

Everyone who hears and learns from the father is coming to me. Those are the ones who will not be cast out

Now this is not popular teaching Because jesus goes from having 5 000 excited followers not including women and children the beginning of john chapter 6

To having 12 confused followers One of whom is a devil at the end of chapter 6 the beginning of the church shrinkage movement is how i've put it many times and yet the reality is

That what we have here is the proclamation on the part of the lord jesus in the synagogue capernaum of his own

Centrality and salvation and the sovereignty of the father and the son in saving perfectly a particular people under the glory of the triune god

All right With that believe it or not. That was eight minutes. And so let's move over to uh, dr.

Brown. Dr. Brown You have eight minutes as well There you go. Thank you All right, um before we get to the section proper

It's already established in john that all who received him who believe in his name God gives the right to become his children.

John 1 12 Everyone who believes in him will not perish for that return alive 3 16 The one who believes in the son has eternal life the one who rejects the son will not see life 3 36

Whoever drinks some of the water I have given will never be thirsty again 4 14 The true worshipers will worship the father in spirit and truth for the father seeks such people to be as worshipers

Note that phrase father seeks them 4 23 4 35 the fields are white for harvest

And the lord's intent is quite specific in 534 I say these things so that you may be saved

Note, also that many of the jewish hearers rebuke for their unbelief and refusal to acknowledge jesus 538

You do not have his word residing in you because because you do not believe the one whom he sent That's the continual argument.

You are not really following the father. That's why you're missing me 540 you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life

You do not accept me 5 43 5 44 How can you believe if you accept praise from one another and don't seek the praise that comes from the only god 5 44?

And on with this in 5 46 and 47 if you really believe moses you'd believe me So jesus is clearly holding them responsible for their unbelief pride and unwillingness to come to him 6 36.

I told you that you have seen me and still you do not believe And of course when we get into 6 35 the one who comes to me will never go hungry the one who believes in me will never be thirsty We have active present participles of coming and believing.

Those are the ones who never go hungry and thirsty And again 6 36. He's saying you should have believed but you don't

Everyone whom the father gives me will come to me the one who comes to me. I will never send away Who are the ones who were given whom the father now entrusts to the son?

Well throughout the history of israel There was a remnant who sought after god broken hearted contrite grieved over the sins of their nation

For example malachi 3 16 to 18 Those who feared the lord talked with each other the lord listened and heard a scroll of remembrance was written in the presence

His presence concerning those who feared the lord has honored and honored his name They will be mine says the lord in the day when

I make up my treasured possession, etc 57 15 and isaiah the broken hearted and contrite dwell with him

Ezekiel 9 3 and 4 put a mark on those who grieve and lament jeremiah 24 4 3 7 which distinguishes the good figs from the bad and then luke 1 17 speaks of of uh regarding john the immerser

That he will come to a people prepared for the lord We also get a hint that there is this remnant who has been following the father

They will now be entrusted to the son, which is the whole concept in john's gospel

Matthew 21 31 and 32. I tell you the truth The tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of god ahead of you

Where john came to show you the way of righteousness? You did not believe him but the tax collectors and prostitutes did

So we see the distinction Many verses and right in john's gospel between those who repented and believed

And those who refused to repent believe and it is the former The humble and contrite like the tax collector who said god have mercy on me a sinner who are now given to jesus

For safekeeping by the father he entrusts the care of these people to the messiah the good shepherd

This is now the great distinction that's made among the jewish people those who truly belong to god are given

To the son and yes verse 37b. Jesus will not drive us away from the table

This interpretation is also confirmed in verse 45 and it makes far more sense than importing an arbitrary predestination into the passage 6 38 and 39 i've come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me

The emphasis here is clearly on the keeping power of the son of god. I'm not quoting the full text here for time's sake

We see the same thing in john 10 27 through 29 and there are two possible ways to read this That all those given to the son will persevere and be infallibly saved thus raised up at the last day or That jesus will do his part to keep and preserve those entrusted to him

Nothing can snatch us out of his hand and yet those given to him can still turn away as did judas of whom the lord

Specifically says in john 17 12. Well, I was with them I was keeping them in your name Which you have given me and I guarded them and not one of them has perished or been lost

But the son of perdition said the scripture would be fulfilled The sentiments expressed here in either case are similar to those in philippians 1 6 and first corinthians 1 8

Which must be read along with other verses such as colossians 1 22 and 23 Which speak of both god's ability to present us blameless before his throne and our responsibility continuing our faith

Established and firm not moved from the whole hell out in the gospel and calvinist would say it is those who persevere to the end

Who are the truly saved? John 6 40 earlier in this chapter is throughout the book We see that eternal life comes by faith specifically in jesus as opposed to works

But we also see that it is persevering faith. It is the one who continues to look and continues to believe who has eternal life

Again, those the true remnant those following the lord are the ones given to the son 641 to 44

Once again, jesus rebukes the pride of his hearers. They were ridiculing him Claiming he was speaking falsely.

He informs them then unless god draws them to himself. They are utterly helpless to come He was not mocking them but telling them they needed god's help

As for verse 44 It is the one who was drawn and comes to jesus who was raised up at the last day

As opposed to just the one drawn it does not say here that all who are drawn will come Uh, we can get into john 12 32 later if necessary But it's like saying you can't come to the party without being invited

But I assure you that everyone who was invited will have a great time obviously provided that they come Notice also that we have a precedent for for drawing, you know

Nets can be dragged but people are drawn. We have jose 11 4 and jeremiah 31 3 uh the latter verse came

I've drawn you with loving kindness god pulls nets god draws people to himself with loving kindness and interestingly

God's drawing can be resisted in nehemiah 9 29 and 30 again using the same greek word

Hell cool for drawing the septuagint 9 30 Look at this 9 29 and 30 and you warn them in order to turn them back to your law

So god's intent and warning was to turn people back yet They acted presumptuously and did not obey your commandments, but sinned against your rules

Which if a person does them he shall live by them They turned to stubborn shoulders stiff in their neck and would not obey so god draws them

Here's what it says many years you bore with them in hebrew. Literally. He drew them Okay, and again, we have hell cool draw in the greek you warn them by your spirit yet.

They would not give ear So there's complete inability to come unless drawn

Those who are drawn and respond we see earlier jesus saying you wouldn't respond.

You're not listening He's rebuking them for it. You're not willing to come those who are drawn and respond have the promises and will be raised up the last day 6 45 it is written in the prophets

They will all be taught by god everyone who hears and learns from the father comes to me So we now have a specific description of those who come to jesus.

It is those who hear and learn from the father This is in keeping with our initial argument that those who are given to jesus by the father

All of them then come to the son are those whose hearts have been prepared those who receive god's testimony

Those who truly believe the torah's truths These are the ones who are now given to the son again

The ones who have been loyal to the father are now entrusted to the son So that the true worshipers of yahweh the ones that he seeks are now identified as followers of jesus

As noted by barnabas linders. The point is that all those who do respond to the father or are drawn by him come to Jesus because of the unique prerogatives which he has from the father and then if we just continue on verses 47 to 51

We see that jesus is inviting. He's giving an altar call. Okay, mike. We we ran out of time there

Do you want me to give you any time? Warnings or anything like that? Uh, no, I was looking at my stopwatch.

I must have looked wrong. So, okay. All right, no problem All right. We're just got such a tight time schedule. I just didn't know if you wanted me to do that Okay, now

I have uh four minutes to ask questions and michael then he'll have four minutes to ask questions of uh me now If I understand the exegesis that you just offered of john 637 um is

It seemed to say that this is the remnant Who have been following god?

Already are the ones given to the son. Is that is that how I understood? Uh, you're under you to view that Uh, yes those uh, whose hearts have been prepared those who've been following him in obedience are now entrusted to the son the messiah okay, so It sounds to me like what you're saying is those who are already coming to god

Are now the ones who are being given to the son. So is this sort of like a change in in dispensation in the sense of uh,

Old testament new testament. Is that how you understand this? This text to be referring to I see it as the fulfillment of the promise in other words up until now the

Distinction was that there were people who were right with the god of israel and those who are not now Jesus becomes the full reflection of the god of israel among the people

So those who are truly his will be identified as the ones that will follow jesus It's not that he now creates a whole new people because there are those longing for his coming like like simeon and anna

That were ready to receive him when he came Okay, so uh, so what 637 then is saying is not so much

It's how does it explain the unbelief these individuals? They're just not a part of the remnant then Oh, yeah, in other words, they look to be just like everybody else

No, we're devoted followers of god and says no you're really not because if you believe moses You'd believe me if you were really listening to the father

Then by all means you would come to me the proof that you're you're uh, Not listening to the fathers that you won't come to me.

He's now to use your phrase the dividing line Okay. All right. So, uh

Now it sounded like you were likewise saying though that even once that giving has taken place

That there is sort of a synergistic necessity of remaining in that relationship

How is it that jesus can fulfill the will of the father that he? Not lose any of those that are thusly given in uh verse 39 if it's possible for someone to be given by the father to the son and yet they not

Obtain eternal salvation Yeah, I I would say two points to that number one the mark of the true believer is that the the person will continue

In faith and you would be the first to to refute once saved always saved and the cheap gospel

So those that continue that's that's how we both agree. You know, who's really in those who continue that's part one part two

Jesus on his part will will do everything. No one can snatch us out of his hand No one can snatch us out of the father's hand who he began the good work will bring it to completion

Yet we do see throughout scripture that there is the possibility of apostasy So that jesus in hebrews 3 is the author and finisher of our faith and yet we have more warnings against apostasy in hebrews

Than anywhere else and the text I quoted from john 17 Judas was lost But that was by his own choosing to refuse god's grace

In verse 44 you seemed to be indicating, uh, That this on on the basis of nehemiah

Uh that the drawing of the father can can somehow be refused. Um How do you explain the fact that all those who are drawn by the father are raised up by the son?

No, it's not all those drawn by the father. It's all those who are drawn and come We we see several times the hebrew mashach and then how kua used in a subdued for a drawing of israel that is refused

So we don't have to try to figure out prior usage We already have it in in the subdued and in the hebrew background to that But again, just the analogy everyone who's invited you can't come to the party unless you're invited everyone uh invited we'll have a great time provided that you come so though everyone

Uh that the father gives to jesus will come to him, but not everyone who is drawn will come

However, without him drawing us we have no possible hope of coming. Okay your turn all right, um

Where we go here. So we just covered some of the questions. I was going to ask you Can you show me through other scriptures that god's drawing cannot be resisted?

well, you know what I want to do is exegesis of the specific text and uh, if if we wanted to Go into that.

Uh, we could go into that. Did you have anything specific in the text? And if if not, then I guess we can we can uh can do that But my had hoped it been really to be focused upon exegesis in this particular encounter uh on in in john 6

I would say that the clear evidence of this is the fact that the you have a consistent testimony throughout this section

Talking about a specific group that are given by the father to the son Their coming to the son is the result of their having been given by the father they're raised up on the last day

And the son perfectly fulfills the father's will in saving all of those that have been given to him

Not based upon god's foreknowledge of who would actually believe but I believe based upon god's sovereignty in giving a particular people to the son and so that drawing of verse 44 becomes the teaching

Which is really what happens in regeneration the revelation of jesus christ in verse 45. So Uh, there's obviously a difference between a a drawing

In some other context it's not talking about the specific work of the spirit of god in drawing people to christ

And this specific text where you are have this repeated emphasis over all all all it's it's it's right there in the text

Right, of course when we get to the all in john 12 32 with drawing the identical two words there

Which are quite striking, uh, you want to interpret them differently? I I guess when I do exegesis My my approach as a philologian is to try to look for word usage and see what concepts can be

Brought into this passage with prior understanding. Well, then did jesus ever lose anyone? What what if john 17 12?

Well, john 17 specifically states that he is the son of perdition So the idea that the son of perdition was given to him for salvation when he's the son of perdition doesn't make any sense

Uh, these men were given to him But but he was jesus was never given to him for salvation obviously because it's called the son of perdition but the philologically speaking, uh,

You just you just mentioned, uh, you know, you you want to look at what concepts can be brought in but on that same basis

John chapter 12 is in a specific context of greeks coming to jesus greeks that jesus does not reveal himself to uh, and so I believe context is absolutely central in lexical semantics and in determining how a term is being used and therefore the the range

Of meaning that can be assigned to any of those terms and that's certainly the case in john chapter 12 I don't think we can take that and read it back into john chapter 6

As if it would have had any meaning to the people that jesus was speaking to Uh, and and since they walk away when jesus repeats this concept to them in john 6 65

If he was understanding it in the john 12 32 passage, why didn't he stop them? But he doesn't

Oh, no, they're they're refusing his grace again I I do see overwhelmingly the immediate context leading up to this you will not come you refuse to come

You will not believe he's chastising them for and saying those who truly will listen to my father Will come but I I suspect we're out of time on the four minutes here

No, actually, I still got about 45 seconds, but i'd like to i'd like to comment on on what you just said I I do not for Obviously the the reformed person says you bet uh, they are not willing to come

Why are they not willing to come because all that the father gives me will come to me you are not willing to come because There's an inability john chapter 8

He brings this out those who are of god hear the words of god The reason you don't hear me is because you are not of me and you're refusing refusing to listen

So so when he says I say these things to you so that you may be saved in the fifth chapter

Does he mean that or not? He means that to those that the spirit is going to draw to him preaching is always used as the means by which

The elect people are brought into relationship with with jesus christ All right that ended up our time now resetting for three o 'clock three three o 'clock three minutes

I'll have my three minutes and then michael will have uh his as well starting right now

Well, once again, my my primary desire here is to exegete these specific texts

Uh, not the whole concept and and and go into many many different texts in many many different places in in the bible because I think that's where confusion comes in and once again when we go back to john chapter 6

I think what we've seen here is well, uh, I believe that there is a remnant. Well, I do too

Uh, but the remnant was a remnant according to grace. It was remnant god is the one who reserved these people

I'm concerned that it almost sounded like well There were some people who were better than other people and they continued to follow torah and they continued to follow god

I would say that the remnant itself at any point in time The 7 000 did not bow the need to bail did so solely on the basis of grace

And it was god who specifically chose those individuals It wasn't that god wanted to have 17 000 But he can only come up with 7 000 because they were the only ones that would synergistically cooperate with him

But to insert this into the text here Uh without providing a foundation in the text is is what is concerning to me

When we look at the explanation that jesus is giving why is it these men have seen him and yet they have not believed

Because they have not been given by the father to the son That is why they do not believe they grumble and jesus says stop your grumbling

You don't need to be grumbling because you need to understand No one has the ability to come to me

Unless the father who sent me draws him now was was the statement being made that that god draws all men

Uh without distinction To the son or does he draw specific people the drawing here?

Does not in any way shape or form have any escape clause God is sovereign in this matter.

That's why jesus saves all those that are given to him And the one who is drawn notice the emphasis became

No one is able to come to me unless the father draws him And I will raise him on the last day who the one who comes

Not the one who's drawn you see this is this is just a different way of of reading the text and When you come to the text the idea that the key in verse 44 is my coming

God can draw but I have to come to fulfill that rather than seeing

No one has the ability to do this unless the father sent me draws him and then was verse 45. Tell us

All that are drawn by the father. That's the learning and the hearing all That are drawn by the father come to me not just some

But all that are drawn by the father. That's what hearing and learning from the father is And so the consistent reading of the text exegetically in its context

Speaks to us of the sovereignty of god and salvation the perfection of the work of christ and once again

The focus is either upon god's accomplishment in jesus christ or what god's attempting to do in jesus christ

But that he doesn't always accomplish that that would be a very different reading of the text

Okay, and now three minutes for michael brown Go ahead god's accomplishment is perfect that all those who believe in his son

Will be truly and forever saved and god fully accomplishes what he has established a profound difference

I think we're having in the approach to exegesis is if i'm going to exegete john 6

I'm going to start in john 1 1 and i'm going to go from there and I see overwhelmingly an invitation

To all I see the whosoever calls and I see on top of it that the very people

That are not believing the very people in john 5 religious leaders and others who are not believing

Jesus is calling them to himself again. I repeat what he says in john 5

I say these things to you 534 so that you may be saved who those of you who are in unbelief

Those of you who think you're right with god or not? Those of you who are not part of the remnant those of you who didn't listen when john that the baptizer came and preached and humbled

Yourselves, those are the ones that he is persistently calling to himself and we see the calling continue in verses 47

To 51 as I began to quote before running out of time that that jesus is saying there

Come to me believe in me and that's why the whosoever verses are so powerful and profound throughout john

So those who truly humble themselves those who believe it's not by works and that's the great lesson in john 6

They keep understanding on a carnal level. They were seeking him outwardly He was seeking to get them to seek the other way by putting off their wrong understanding by rebuking their wrong understanding by showing

Them that their belief in their self -sufficiency couldn't possibly work And the reason that they can't hear is because they're not truly listening to the father.

So what's he saying? Ha ha ha you don't get in the father's not drawing you.

Sorry boys No, he's saying humble yourselves and listen and believe whoever believes will come and we don't know that later on some of those very same

People did eventually turn and come so we cannot come unless drawn

Those that respond to the drawing by faith Which is the universal way in throughout the gospel of john and everywhere else those who receive god's witness in jesus

Are then given to the son and he will keep us safely to the end if we get out of jesus renounce him deny him

He has not failed in any way. He has given us a door if we want to depart from him

Those that put their trust in him. He will never fail. He will keep us safely to the end what god finishes.

He starts Perfectly and the door is open. Whoever will can come All righty, thank you very much for listening to a debate between james white and michael brown the next section of the debate half an hour on romans chapter 8 beginning at verse 28 and I will begin my eight minutes, uh right now

In this tremendous text we have the sovereignty of god laid out with explicit clarity

We are told that god causes all things to work together for good to those who love god to those who are the called According to his purpose and then we have the golden chain of redemption

Beginning with god for knowing for knowing is an active verb. It is not merely having foreknowledge

It is not looking down the corridors of time. It is an action of god and every time god takes this action

When god is the one who takes the action. It is a personal object that receives this action

And so you foreknow someone you don't foreknow what someone is going to do at least when god does it

And so and on the basis of his choosing to enter into relationship with someone just as he chose israel

Just he chose jeremiah He predestined them to be conformed the image of his son Those whom he predestined he called those whom he called he justified those whom he justified he glorified the golden chain of redemption gives us the absolute sovereignty of god in his accomplishment of his own self -glorification in the salvation of a specific people

As a result, he says what shall we say these things if god is for us who is against us? He did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all who is the us all

The us all are the same people that have been discussed before How will he not also with him freely give us all things?

Who is the us verse 33 who will bring a charge against god's elect? God is the one who justifies the same group is in view here all the way through it is god

Who's called it is god who's justified? It's god who's glorified. It's god who's given his son in behalf of us all

He has also given to us freely all things god is one who has justified his elect people

No one can condemn his elect people christ Jesus is he who died just rather who was raised who's the right hand of god who also intercedes for us

For whom does the son of god intercede but for a specific people by name not just a nebulous synergistic group

But by name a specific group of people And it is those people who then can claim the beautiful words of romans 8 35 and following About never being separated from the love of christ

It was in that context then that chapter 9 begins and paul talks about the fact that he wished that he could

Himself were a curse separated from christ for the sake of his brethren His kinsmen according to flesh who are the israelites have all these great benefits

But then he makes a very strong statement Verse 9 chapter 9 verse 6

It is not as though the word of god has failed for they are not all israel who are descended from israel

This is the key to the interpretation of romans chapter 9. This is not about nations

This is not about privilege. This is not about blessings It is the fact that from the very beginning god's promises and god's salvation has been freely given

By god himself on his own grounds not on our grounds Not on not on anything that we can do nor are they all children because they're abraham's descendants

But through isaac your descendants will be named That is it is not the children of flesh or children of god, but the children of promise

God is the one who gives the promise and so that is traced through and notice how personal all this is

When people try to turn this into nations notice how personal all this is verse 10 and not only this there is rebecca

Also when she had conceived twins by one man our father isaac For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad

So that god's purpose according to his choice would stand not because of works

But because of him who calls it was said to her the older will serve the younger justice is written jacob

I love but esai hated what's the center here god's purpose according to his choice not man's purpose

It is specifically being contrasted in this particular text What then shall we say immediately the apostle paul brings up the objections and we want to make sure that we are not making the same

Objections that they paul that the apostle is responding to what shall we say? Then is there any unrighteousness with god may it never be for he says to moses

I will mercy whom I mercy and I will harden And I will have compassion upon whom

I have compassion. In other words. It's god who can freely give his mercy Mercy that has to be demanded mercy.

You say god has to be Merciful to every person equally is not true. Mercy. That's not true compassion verse 16 says so then the apostolic interpretation of that text is

Therefore it does not depend on the one willing neither on the one running

But on the mercying god What's he talking about here? Is he talking about nations or is he talking about individuals?

Is he talking? What's what's what's mercy needed for what is this willing? What is this striving? This all has to do with salvation

For the scriptures say of pharaoh for this very reason I raised you up to do what? To demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth

As a result of that statement remember pharaoh was raised up for what for judgment?

Not for salvation, but for judgment he dies in The red sea along with his army

And what is the apostolic interpretation of this so then he has mercy on whom he wishes therefore

Let's again again. The english doesn't do well. He mercies whom he wishes And he hardens whom he wishes parallel phraseology in verse 18

This is god's absolute freedom because when it comes to the matter of mercy

We have transcended justice God must be just in bringing punishment against every sinner mercy and grace goes beyond those categories and Immediately the objector seeing this brings up the objection that well, we hear all the time

Verse 19 you will say to me then why does he still find fault for who resists his will if his will is so sovereign?

If his will is so powerful who can possibly resist his will? and paul gives a stunning answer

Oh man Who are you who is answering back to god? He reminds man of what he is and who god is the thing molded will not say to the molder

Why did you make me like this and that is where we stumble? Because we do not like the idea that god is our creator

We do not like the idea that god is the one who is the potter and we are the clay

Why did you make me like this will it or does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same

Lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable or common use

What if god although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known things that he must do?

This is what he's chosen to do endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

The parallel has to be that this is the dishonorable use that the potter has for lumps of clay

Prepared for destruction and he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy

Which he prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he called not from among jews only but also from among gentiles

Notice that last phrase from all mankind. There is your all there is your the whole world right there

Whom he has called not from among jews only but from also among gentiles Clearly in this passage.

We have god's absolute sovereignty laid out. There is no break There is there is no hiding from this drumbeat of god's freedom when it comes to the expression of his mercy and his grace

Yes, god has the right to demonstrate God has the right to demonstrate his power and to make his wrath known as he sees fit

In the same way. He has the right to demonstrate and make known his mercy and his grace as he sees fit as well

All right eight minutes I'm gonna take a breath your turn

All right, beginning with the phrase for those whom he foreknew this could potentially refer to a choosing based on foreknowledge

You have first peter 1 1 and 2 where the believers are elect According to foreknowledge with a prior example found in genesis 18 19 with yada in hebrew

Or it could refer to god's corporate electing of a people Acknowledging them as his covenant partners

It is his plan as in ephesians 1 to have a people who will be conformed to the image of his son

As to how an individual becomes part of this corporate body paul has told us repeatedly There are those who are justified by faith note that the saving faith is mentioned 17 times in 321 to 425 alone

There is no mystery here So the basic program then for this people the destiny of those so to say on the ship is set forth in verses 29 and 30 predestined to become like jesus called meaning designated as god's own called the sons and daughters just as Abraham's seed was called or named through isaac and 9 7 identical greek

Justified again. We know how this process takes place and glorified probably nomic heiress referring to what god does with this group

So one possible reading of the text god foresaw everyone who would believe in his son and chose them

Those who believe in persevere to the end or on another possible reading which i have no problem with god chose the corporate people

This church is messianic congregation and established a program for the redemption from beginning to end

And all those who remain in that people will see that destiny fulfilled verses 31 to 39

Just as in john 6 and 10 and other new testament passages Jesus will keep us safely to the end and nothing has the power to pull us away from him

Unless we ourselves decide to renounce him and turn our backs on him as grant osborne notes

The lists in the section are all pressures outside the person A host of new testament passages not to mention the example of israel in the old testament

Remind us that apostasy is possible for the new testament believer As expressed by bj or pays or the readers as individuals could take comfort in the promises of this passage

But only as they are identified as members of the christian community When we get to chapter 9 verses 1 through 5 paul expresses

The terrible pain he experiences because of the state of his people The ancient covenant people longing for their salvation presumably he shared god's heart in this

It seemed that god's word had failed the messiah came and god's covenant promises to israel were not realized

So paul explains in 9 6 through 8 that there is an israel within israel Those who are circumcised in the heart according to the language of romans 2

As he states in 9 8 this means that it is not the children of the flesh or the children of god But the children of the promise are counted as offspring

But it's here that calvinists misread paul's intent interpreting the verses that follow as if they pertain primarily

To individual salvation rather than to god's corporate purposes And it's important that we look at carefully at paul's citations from the old testament since roughly one -third of all of his citations are found in romans 9 through 11

To emphasize the corporate nature of the discussion here note that in chapters 9 through 11 Paul never once uses the word jew but speaks of israel 11 times whereas outside of 9 through 11

He never once uses the word israel and romans. This is an issue of corporate calling and corporate purpose

And it's those who hold to faith who will be part of that corporate chosen people verses 10 through 13

Note that the first verse cited is from genesis 25 23 two nations are in your room

Two peoples from within you shall be divided the one shall be stronger than the other the older shall serve the younger

So this is dealing with two nations not two individuals And note, of course that esau did not serve jacob in his lifetime

But his descendants were subjugated by the israelites the second citation is from malachi 1 2 speaking of the nations of israel and edom

Surely, not all israelites were saved and not all edomites were damned The same can be said of all ishmaelites surely

Not all of them were damned and even if one argued that corporate calling made salvation more readily available Remains true that participation in the national promises was by faith

And foreigners by that same faith could be part of the chosen people even in old testament times

And now the objections that are raised beginning in verses 14 to 16 Jewish person could protest here that by claim

By claiming that god wasn't being fair After all, they were the chosen people believing they had special privileges by ancestry or works

Not so says paul Carrying out the imagery of god loving jacob paul emphasizes that god has mercy on whoever he wants to There's nothing a human being can do to get into a place of god's favor without him first having mercy

At this point, however It's important to remember that the subject of election is simply a sub theme Of the larger question of god's dealing with israel

And so chapter 9 must be read in the chapter of not Context of 9 through 11 and the conclusion of paul's discussion is glorious indeed upon whom will god have mercy?

everyone 1132 for god has consigned all to disobedience all human beings are consigned to disobedience that he may have mercy on all

As noted by ff bruce in some schools of theological thought unfortunately The doctrine of election has been formulated too much on the basis of this preliminary stage of paul's present argument

Without adequate account being taken of his further exposition of god's purpose in election at the conclusion of the argument

And point of fact disappears with blessed clarity later in paul's argument God's grace is far wider than anyone could have dared to hope

Even the citation from exodus 33 19 is in the context of god saying okay I will not destroy the whole nation as you have pleaded for mercy.

I will have mercy 9 17 and 18 Now we begin to see exactly how god deals with people

As already described in romans 1 those who refuse his grace are hardened as in the exodus narrative with pharaoh

Where he hardens his heart numerous times pharaoh does before god stiffens his resistance using a series of progressively stronger words the first Uh, really meaning that god strengthened pharaoh's resolve to sin

As for pharaoh himself as emphasized by paul's quotation from the satirician Craig keener commented apparently god chose this pharaoh not so that an honorable man would become stubborn

But so that god would judge a wicked leader revealing god's power So he has mercy on him every wills and he hardens whomever he wills certainly does not apply to Arbitrary acts of god in terms of individual salvation the testimony of so much of the rest of scripture is against this idea

His mercy is free and undeserved. His hearting is utterly righteous, but both are his prerogative

Within a verse 19 you'll say to me then why does he find fault for who can resist his will? This actually forms a close parallel to 3 5

But if our righteousness serves to show the righteousness of god our unrighteousness rather serves to show the righteousness of god

What shall we say that god is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? On the one hand paul could say yes people reject god's purposes luke 7 30

But no paul is after the deeper argument rebuking this arrogant attitude that would dare charge god with justice verses 20 through 24 on the one hand paul is simply saying

God can do whatever he wants to do and if he wants to save some damn others That's his right. But if we go deeper into the text, we see a few things first We see that as we go on in romans 9 31 32 and thereafter the israelites did not pursue righteousness by faith

But as it were by works, so that's why they've stumbled We see at the end of the 10th chapter of israel.

He says all day long I've held up my hands to a disobedient and contrary people and he speaks of trespass rejection unbelief in point of fact

The strongest potter image in scripture is jeremiah 18 where god lays out his principle

He can do whatever he wants to do when he decrees destruction if people repent he will have mercy So there are those who set themselves up now

It has objects of wrath and are hence prepared for destruction But god's desire is that they turn and repent just as he put up patiently with the past objects of wrath

Then of the gentiles we ephesians 2 by nature objects of wrath godness patience puts up with us

Offering us repentance and the bottom line is if we respond in faith, he will have mercy

It is a desire to have mercy on all Okay, four minutes, uh for me to ask questions, um

You uh indicated that uh at the beginning of romans chapter 8 verse 28 the the foreknowing, uh section

Uh, would you agree that this is an active verb and that every time god uses it the reason the object is a personal

Uh, yeah, I I would say that primarily the usage is active in other words

It's not that he foreknew something about someone but that he chose certain people in advance

Okay, and it could be based on things. He knows about them or not. That's not said but yes primarily

It's it's speaking of choosing out of people in advance Is justification a personal or a corporate thing from your perspective?

Uh, it it is it is personal and it is the way that all of us get into the corporate body whom god has predestined

Okay, so but each of the events of the golden chain in verse 30 calling justification glorification are personal in their actual, uh consummation and and occurrence in time

Yes in terms of our experience. Yes in terms of god's predestining as we'll see clearly in ephesians 1

It's always a corporate people. There's never an example of him predestining an in one individual to salvation and another individual to damnation

Okay, uh the text, uh that says that god did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all

Would you not agree that paul limits the us all here to god's elect? But in that particular context us us all

Is specifically referring to all of us who are believers in other contexts the all In atonement and redemption that we'll get into next week with you with texts

I'm asking you to exegete those speak of his love for the entire world, but they're in context here us all Absolutely.

The son was given for every single believer all of us without exception. Yes, sir Uh in light of that though If you believe that he's also given for others and it says in verse 34 who also intercedes for us

Is it your position that this means that he's interceding that this is just a statement that yes

He's interceding for us the same way. He's interceding for say the philistines or the amorites

Oh, I would certainly see a different intercession for those who are within the body and those who have not yet come So and the primary emphasis of jesus intercession is for his own

But since he shed his blood for the entire world and weeps and mourns for the entire world There's certainly an intercession for the entire world, but in the context here

It's an intercession particularly for us and i'm sure there is a particular Kind of intercession that is unique to us as god's children

So there are there are multiple kinds of intercession. Is that what I just understood you to say? And that's what

I see everywhere else in scripture. I would certainly believe it applies to the son of god as well So the the high priest as he offers as he intercedes intercedes differently for Believers, but he also intercedes for unbelievers.

I'm just trying to figure out what you mean by that Yes, certainly just as we do we pray that people will come to the lord

We pray that the holy spirit will convict them of sin We pray that god will draw them and then we we pray in particular for those within that god will keep them strong, etc

Just like in galatians 6 to do good to everyone but in particular to those of the household of faith So I would say that we pray in ways very similar to the intercession of jesus except not with his effectuality and perfection

Okay, i'm trying to understand in romans 9 you Said that god chose a dishonorable pharaoh

Rather than an honorable pharaoh Was was did god have to sort of wait for a dishonorable pharaoh to come along or i'm confused

About what you mean by that since the pharaohs were the head of the pagan religions of israel and hence Of of egypt hence any pharaoh would be dishonorable for a holy god, wouldn't he?

Well, you could have you could have had a foreigner that was a god seeker You could have had someone who was responding to the light and revelation that was given

Not everyone is as hard or wicked. Not everyone is a hitler in that sense God could have had someone uh die in infancy and another pharaoh be raised up And and again paul quotes the septuagint which that god raised him up for this purpose

So he was the right man for the job just like nebuchadnezzar my servant god's Infinite wisdom is going to use the right people to accomplish his divine purposes.

Okay, but if okay anyway, it's your turn Okay. Uh, thank you. Uh, so, uh

Is there any basis on which god chooses people on which he foreknows?

Uh, yes the uh, good pleasure of his will And and nothing beyond that nothing beyond that never.

Okay. Um I understood you to say that but just wanted it said more explicitly

Let's let's go to the climax of the discussion that god has bound all men over to disobedience that he may have mercy on them all

Doesn't it follow that the same ones that he has bound over to disobedience, which is every human being on the planet

Those are the ones on whom he wants to have mercy uh, no, because that would make me a universalist, uh, the mercy of god in romans chapter 9 actually results in salvation and so Uh, no,

I would clearly differentiate just as romans 5 does Uh in recognizing that while all have sinned in adam

Uh, the justification of life is only for those who are in jesus christ So the distinction has already been made long before we get to romans 11

I think it's reading the text backwards to come up with a conclusion out of romans 11

Then read it back in romans 9 romans 8 and romans 5 the distinctions are made before we get to romans 11

I don't think that the audience is going to be confused Uh as to what he's referring to he's talked about jews and gentiles as those who are the recipients of god's grace already

So the all means some jews and some gentiles, uh, yeah, that's what the world is is jews and gentiles from the

But the consigned to disobedience and then the mercy on them only means some jews and some gentiles

Yes, god obviously has the right to show mercy and love Uh to those who chooses to do so and unless we are universalists and believe that that mercy uh is simply being uh

Shown but not how does how does mercy this is why I tried to translate this way in romans 9

Mercy is a verb. It's an active verb in and now we say have mercy Because we don't have a verbal form to mercy someone but as you know, the the verb in romans 9 is he mercies

Uh freely he chooses those whom he mercies And so it's not show mercy as in show oneself

To be merciful towards someone if they will do something It is actually mercy someone and so if we're going to take romans 11 and say well

We're just going to create an equation here We're going to ignore the distinctions that have already been made up to this point and say he's going to mercy everyone uh, then

That's the only foundation i've ever found for universalism And i'm not a universalist and neither are you so?

All right, okay just for time's sake let me move on i'd like to pursue that maybe face -to -face we can do that one day

When you say that the old testament texts are not speaking of nations and yet the citations refer to nations and then

Specifically jacob. I loved you. So I hate it a national word in malachi 1 Does that mean that all the descendants of jacob are loved and all the descendants of jacob?

Each are hated therefore all edomites are damned. No, I just don't think that that's the way paul is using the text at all

The the apostolic interpretation of those old testament texts Is not one that says i'm going to take these as as in reference to nations

I'm going to demonstrate that god has always had the freedom to choose his people freely

And he has done so from the beginning and he did so with isaac that that's why it's specifically and I emphasize this

Specifically before the twins had done anything good or bad not before the nations had done anything good or bad, but For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad so that god's purpose going to his choice would stand

Not because it works. I mean talk about belaboring your yourself not because it works But because of him who calls it was said to her the older will serve the younger jacob

I love but you saw I hated the argument is with paul's utilization of the malachi text. Um, not with with anything else

So what does it mean? Okay I knew it was coming.

That's all right All right, three minutes, uh, three minutes closing statements from each of us I get to go first again next week just for those of you listening that will be reversed in case any of you're thinking that's

Unfair or something, etc. Etc. Three minutes Uh, I believe the text is very very very clear and and once again, uh,

I I've I have attempted to follow the flow As quickly as I possibly could all the way through And I believe once again if we look at the emphasis of the text itself

It's what god has done not what god has made possible But what god has done god foreknows god predestines god calls god justifies god glorifies

Jesus intercedes and I think it would be very interesting someday to find out How it is that from the old testament we can get the idea that the high priest did different kinds of intercession

I thought he offered only one sacrifice and I thought it was only for those who drew near But we have this idea of of multiple kinds of intercession, uh being being brought up uh and it is because jesus intercedes and it's because god is

As judge has said that we are righteous that no one can bring a charge against god's elect And that includes the elect

I might note in in the process who have been changed with the spirit of god And hence they're not going to bring about their own destruction in that way

Meaning that apostasy has to do with those who have a false faith Not those who've been given by the father to the son Then in romans 9 paul is explaining well if this is true

Then why do so few jews relative to the entire number of jews believe? And paul is explaining that this has always been the case

It is not just being a descendant of abraham that makes you of the covenant people Uh before the twins were born god freely chose the one to whom the promises would be given and the personal application my assertion is that it's the

Apostolic interpretation of these texts that is so clear. He's not applying these to nations

He's not applying these to just uh privileges or anything of the kind And if we'll allow the distinctions that have been raised that the potter has the right over the clay to make one for honorable use and the other for dishonorable use

And then we follow those distinctions into 10 and 11 rather than going to the end of 11

Coming up with a lack of distinction there and reading it backwards Again, this is this is not how exegesis is done since John, i'm sorry paul has already made the distinction in romans 5

You have the the two humanities one in adam one in christ here in romans 9 you have the the potter

Determining the vessels of honor the vessels of dishonor, etc, etc, etc We have to allow those particular distinctions to continue throughout the text and when we do so we understand why it is that the objector says

How does he still find fault for who resists his will and the answer remains the same who are you?

Oh, man, not who are you? Oh nation But who are you? Oh man, who answers back to god the thing molded will not say to the molder.

Why did he make me like this singular? That's the application here That's why romans 9 has for so many years been so clear in making this testimony and will continue to do so as long as the lord tarry's

All right, three minutes and it's back to you michael All right. Thank you

We've got to look at what paul's after here in romans 9 through 11 And this is his section where he deals specifically with israel

Which is a fundamental part of his gospel romans 1 16 the gospel is the power of god's salvation to everyone Release first for the jew then for the gentile

And the question of privilege and the question of national inheritance and the question of why haven't things panned out as expected

I would point out first that paul's broken heart for his people makes no sense when he's about to argue according to the calvinistic interpretation

Hey, god damns who he wants to damn and saves who he wants to save and paul is defending that well right here

He's broken heart and saying I wish I could cut myself off from my people Why because god is longing for his people to come back as we have text after text after text in the old testament

Where he says even when I rebuke you my heart longs for you. I desire to see you come back Why will you die?

Oh house of israel? That's a foundation that no one can argue with that. That's come emphatically up to this point

It's also important when paul's raising a hypothetical argument. What if god wants to do this again?

He doesn't specifically say it even he he could have said it more profoundly, but he says what if god did this?

What if he did that? Well, let's just keep reading to see what the conclusion is what we see in romans

The 11th chapter is that israel which is hardened right now and israel which is now an object of wrath according to paul if Individual israelites will turn and believe because it's by faith and not by works if they will turn and they will believe

Then praise god they can be grafted back in and as to the gentiles who are now part of this privileged family

And the thing that to the jews seems so unfair and and not right if they do not continue in faith

They will be cut off. That's what paul lays out. It's also critically important to see as we continue

First the emphasis on the verses cited. It's not just the impasta interpretation

It's where they understand in the scriptures properly or not So before jacob and esau were born god chose out a destiny for jacob's people and esau's people having nothing to do with Either one of them the elder serving the younger does not happen in their individual lives

It happens in their lives of their descendants not only so if esau is hate it

Then why does he receive blessing from isaac hate it in the sense of reject it as a person? That's certainly not what was being understood and paul would not be violating the original text with his apostolic interpretation

If that was the case, he would then be a false prophet. No jew should rightly listen to him I think though it's important that we keep reading beyond when paul says the potter has the right and again

I draw everyone back to jeremiah 18 where the potter's sovereign right is laid out and then the context is

If I prepare a vessel for destruction if I prepare a disaster for people if they will repent

I will Relent, and I have the privilege to do that as potter That's what god is saying But when we continue as the rest of romans 9 if we just keep reading the immediate context paul doesn't say well

The israelites missed it because god destined them to miss it He says no they did not pursue righteousness by faith, but as it were based on works

They've stumbled over the stonewood stone. Okay. Thank you very much. We're actually all right, believe it or not We're two minutes behind i'm not sure how we did that but uh, we better hurry up or you're going to be uh, just uh,

Transitioning right into your own programs. Yeah, and I I can do a Ephesians one in slightly less time perhaps

Perhaps we'll see I I I doubt either one of us will do that All right. Now we turn to ephesians chapter one last round of the three rounds today.

My eight minutes begins now Blessed be the god and father of our lord. Jesus christ the one who blessed us and please notice throughout this text

The direct objects of the blessings and actions of god will be personal.

They will not be an impersonal group That is a group we are talking about the people of god But that is always personal and what happens in the blessings that are given the things that happen the forgiveness of sins

Cannot be understood outside of individuals being known to god It's not that god blesses just a generic group, but it is a it is a group that is chosen by god

The blessings that have given to us in all all spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in christ throughout this text

It is only in christ. There is no pluralism, uh to be found in ephesians chapter one Just as he chose us

In him not as he chose him And then we can get in or out of him by our choice the direct object of the choosing of god before the foundation of the world is us it is

Personal he chose us the father set his love upon the individuals who make up the elect

He did not place his love upon a nebulous faceless group called the elect

And then we choose to get in or out based upon our own alleged free will

Just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world That we might be holy and blameless before him holiness and blamelessness are not just simply saying

Oh god's just chosen the elect to be holy and blameless The only way we can be holy and blameless is due to the work the spirit of god within our lives

It has to do with sanctification It has to do with justification has to do with forgiveness all these things

That will be coming up in the rest of the text are part and parcel of the entire doctrine of salvation

Itself And so he chose us before the foundation of the world.

This is god's not Looking down the corridors of time saying oh, I see you're going to choose me.

So i'll choose you No, this is god choosing us in christ before the foundation of the world.

We might be holy and blameless before him In love he predestined us

Unto the adoption as sons through jesus christ unto himself in love he predestined us

Predestination is a personal thing God doesn't just simply have knowledge of you know, he created then he sits back and goes.

Oh, I see what people are going to do No, this is god's sovereignty Coming out in personal manifestation.

He has predestined us unto adoption that personal relationship that we have

Through jesus christ unto himself and what is the basis of that predestination?

Is it because he sees something in us? Is it because we've done something? No according to the kind intention of his will

This is the only answer that is given to the question Why does god choose one and not another since this choosing must be free since this choosing cannot be demanded

Since if god were simply to be just he would bring wrath against all the fallen sons and daughters of adam

Then his free choosing must be just that it must be Free it is according to the kind intention not the evil intention

If god were to save even one it would be an amazing miracle that he would condescend and provide such a tremendous salvation

But it is the kind intention of his will That becomes the foundation of this predestination of us

Unto sonship sonship is personal this cannot Groups do not become sons of god

Redeemed sinners become sons of god because it is the spirit of god that enters into us and cries out abba father

And so this could not be any more personal than it is Furthermore verse 6 says this is to the praise of his glorious grace

How could it be to the praise of his glorious grace if his glorious grace is just a peanut butter grace

That gets spread out all over the place and tries to save everyone equally No to the praise of the glory of his grace his glorious grace, which he has graced us

Literally, he has he has gifted us in the beloved one. Notice this grace saved is only in christ

See the perfection we see the harmony we see between this and romans chapter 8 Who does christ intercede for the elect of god?

Where is this grace found in jesus christ see it's all in christ God has this purpose that he has accomplished in jesus christ, which is why any one of us this day

Bows the knee before jesus christ is because of what god has done not just making it as a possibility

But he set his love upon us before eternity was To the praise of his glorious grace, which he graced us in the beloved one in him

In whom the beloved one we have the redemption through his blood the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of his grace

Now there you have The fact that this is clearly salvation that is being discussed. It is not merely some general provision

But we have not we might have but in whom we have the redemption through his blood the forgiveness of our sins

And that forgiveness is not limited in any way. It is according to the riches of his grace, which cannot be numbered which he

Caused to abound to us lavished upon us in all wisdom and understanding

Can these be words that could be spoken of anyone? But the elect of god who've actually received the fulfillment of the work of the spirit of god unto the praise and honor and glory of god

He may note made known to us the mystery of his will according to the kind intention which he

Purposed in him with a view to administration suitable to the fullness of the times That is the summing up of all things in christ things in heaven and things on earth

So here you have the broad sweep of god's eternal plan. He's summing up everything in christ

Those who are in christ receive eternal life Those who are outside of christ will see christ as their judge

He will sit upon the throne the one that god has ordained acts chapter 17 to be the judge

Because he can do so justly he lived the perfect life He has summed up all things in heaven and earth in christ and in him.

Also we have obtained An inheritance we've obtained it. It is ours, but only in and through jesus christ.

We have obtained an inheritance Who has Obtained this inheritance those who have been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things

After the counsel of his will there is no way to understand what ephesians 1 is talking about If we do not understand that we are talking about the sovereign god who works all things

After the counsel of his will to the end that we who were the first to hope in christ to be the praise of his glory

And then he turns the ephesians and you also You you also after listening to the message of truth the gospel of your salvation having also believed

You were sealed in him with the holy spirit of promise. The spirit is the one who comes And in opposition to what's been said a number of times, uh so far today

The spirit is the one who comes he is the arabone verse 14 the down payment the pledge of our inheritance

The promise on god's part that he's going to finish the work that he's begun in that individual

Ephesians you and us together the spirit of god binds us together just as the spirit of god binds all believers together across this world

Evidence that god is accomplishing in time what he chose freely to do in eternity past In glorifying himself in the salvation of a specific people in jesus christ.

That's how paul begins his message to the ephesians All right eight minutes

You still with us michael i'm i'm here I actually agreed with a good part of what you said this time What was more than the other?

Okay, uh, the the key points that we need to make that our election is in christ And just as israel's election was corporate.

So also is the election of the church. We plural are chosen in him the end of verse one the faithful in christ jesus then even more emphatically

Uh, the end of verse three has blessed us in christ. We're in cristo is at the end Uh, here's what we need to notice the emphatic uses in christ and cristo

And similar phrases in verses 1 3 4 7 9 11 12 13

Total of 9 times in 14 verses and then in the beloved in verse 6 So let's just hear this in christ.

Jesus verse 1 in christ verse 3 in him verse 4 In the beloved verse 6 in him verse 7 in christ verse 9 in him verse 10 in him verse 11 in christ

Verse 12 in him verse 13 and then also the tremendous emphasis on we and us

According to uh verse 4 god's eternal purpose was that he would fashion a people for himself in his son

A people who would love him and serve him and be holy and blameless before him a people on whom he would lavish his grace verse 5 the verb predestined per original means to decide on beforehand or to Predetermine so god has predetermined a certain state of affairs that he will conform believers to the image of christ same verb used in first corinthians 2 7

Wisdom achieving the glory of his people and then verses 11 and 12 that we will be for the praise of his glory

So paul affirms that god determined to adopt us into his family through the redemptive work of christ

As william klein points out I must observe that paul never uses this verb To assert that god has determined the specific individuals to save nor has he predetermined the means for specific individuals

Salvation in other words. God does not predestine that some have faith from paul's use We see the predestination concerns god's predetermination of certain goals for his people here that they become members of his family through adoption

Verse 6 we note the emphasis on god's grace the praise of his glorious grace

Verse 7 the riches of his grace repeat it in 2 7 by grace You have been saved 2 5 4 by grace.

You have been saved through faith 2 8 Everything we have throughout eternity will be through god's grace

All we could do is respond to his offer and say yes put our trust in him

We who are lost helpless could not possibly save ourselves in forever and ever and ever we will be floored and awed

With the grace of god, which is why both calvinists and arminians can sing hymns written by one another about god's amazing grace

Note though that the word mystery mysterion occurs six times in ephesians as we look in verse 9

Here chapter 3 verse 3 then 4 9 5 32 and 6 19 And paul explains the meaning in 3 4 and 3 8 through 12

The mystery is that the gentiles are fellow heirs members of the same body And partakers of the promise in christ jesus through the gospel

To me though on the very least of all the saints this grace was given to preach to the gentiles the

Unsearchable riches of christ and to bring to light for everyone is what is the plan of the mystery?

Hidden for ages in god who created all things so that through the church again It's a corporate purpose a corporate calling the manifold wisdom of god

Might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places and this is realized in christ.

Jesus our lord So we individually partake of the blessings by faith

Just as god called corporate israel and then individuals partook of the blessings by faith and it was always by grace

Israel could never boast of anything so the same for us because it is by faith. We cannot boast

We are simply receiving god's offer of mercy because love cannot be coerced because love is relational

God offers it to us freely and those who respond are then lavished with his amazing and extraordinary and breathtaking

Grace that floors me every time I think of it in verse 11

Paul is not saying here that everything that happens is god's will he's not saying that god causes everything to happen

But rather in christ god is accomplishing a very carefully worked out plan for his people

The message paraphrases it correctly long before we first heard of christ got our hopes up He had his eye on us had designs on us for glorious living part of the overall purpose

He is working out in everything and everyone or in the new living translation paraphrased again He makes everything work out according to his plan

So the text certainly does not state that god causes all things to take place as they do The scriptures testify against this consistently with god grieving over the actions of his creation

Often distancing himself from their actions and making clear that he desired their obedience But rather than in and through everything that happens in the world

He is accomplishing his plans for his people chosen in christ And verse 13 lays out the way in which we're saved through hearing and believing the word of truth again

No mystery here as for being sealed with the holy spirit The net renders marked with the seal of the promised holy spirit the nlt paraphrases

He identified you as his own by giving you the holy spirit Freiberg's lexicon says that the word seal speaks of providing a sign of identification or ownership

Verse 14 the spirit here is spoken of as the deposit or down payment that guarantees our inheritance God will using our bone in greek a loan word from from hebrew

Guarantee the future inheritance Bdag says this is the payment of part of a purchase price in advance first installment deposit down payment pledge

Interestingly in secular greek documents the same word our bone could be used for a deposit given to a man who upon filling certain

Contingencies would then receive everything else that was contracted for Note carefully though that neither the sealing of the spirit which is simply a mark of identification

Though the spirit is a down payment guarantee an individual's future salvation outside of christ

Which is why paul warns the ephesians so clearly in ephesians 5 5 and 6 for you may be sure of this

That everyone who is sexually immoral in pure covetous, etc Has no inheritance to the kingdom of christ and of god don't let anyone deceive you with empty words our assurance our security our inheritance are in christ

And it is an absolute testimony to the grace of god that this cannot be earned or worked for But the miracle of the gospel presented so radically and clearly in the new testament laid out

So powerfully by fall by paul's that justification is by faith and not by works And that is the pathway to receive all of god's grace and to be part of this people

Whom god has predestined from before the foundation of the world i'm done All righty.

Thank you, sir. So, uh four minutes for our uh interaction. Uh, let me start off You're presenting the concept of corporates election

Um in this particular text doesn't your understanding mean that a group was chosen in him, but I as an individual

I was not That god did not specifically predestine you or me to salvation

He he predestined the people in jesus just as he predestined the nation israel by calling abraham and participation in that people

Being recipients of god's grace is entirely by faith not by works And yet you just said that love is relational which

I understood to mean love is involves persons And yet all through this text.

Yes, we have in him and in christ and I emphasize that all the time But we also have in love

And so in love in verse four, uh, well, it might be verse five depending on how you how to divide it up But over and over again, we have this idea of in love.

How could predestination be done in love? If it's an impersonal group that is being predestined

Uh, it's it's actually the exact opposite if god arbitrarily Predestined someone to believe in him through no choice of that own person

Then there isn't relational what god says is I am going to have a family I have determined from before the foundation of the world

I will have a massive family from jew and gentile alike that no one can number that will come through faith in my son

And all who receive my love become personal objects of my love that's why you never see paul speaking in his personal epistles about you were predestined and when

Choosing to speak it out spoken of it spoken of vocation personally, but whenever he uses the predestination language

It's always in terms of us every single time. He had opportunity to use it Otherwise, but but you you

I I don't think I got an answer to that one You you said well if if it's The way

I understand it then it's not really love or something like that. But again This predestination is in love, but you're telling us that this is predestination of a

Non -personal group just i'm going to have a family. I don't see how you can lovingly predestine a family

Love involves persons does it not? Oh It's usually use the family analogy

So you and your wife get married and say we want to have a family the kids haven't been born yet But you are full of love and as those kids are born

They now become part of your family full of love First is love.

Okay in terms of god's love. It's love for the entire world. John 3 16, which obviously you differ on It's love for the entire world god's heart goes out to the entire world and in particular

He expresses his love through jesus all those who receive his son's love are especially loved by god in a personal particular

Wonderful way that I experience every day of my life. Okay, at least three times so far in our exchange today.

You have said that paul never speaks of personal, uh Election or predestination but only to positions of service or something like that Which I believe is what what dave hunt says, uh over and over again uh, but You know feel free to say

I don't want to go there because it's not in ephesians one But since you've mentioned it three times Paul said in second thessalonians 2 13

But we should always give thanks to god for you brother and be loved by the lord because god has chosen you from the beginning For salvation through sanctification by the spirit and faith in the truth

Uh is is that not uh an example of the choice of god in love from the beginning?

unto salvation, uh by Means of sanctification of the spirit and faith and truth.

Yeah, i'm happy to go to that text. Uh, Albeit quickly the issue there was that they were gentiles paul was quite emphatic when he he gave his witness in acts 15 that the sign that That god had given the spirit to the gentiles just in acts the 10th chapter meant that they also were chosen

That's the big issue there Just as you're so careful to point out that the all passages have to do with jew and gentile

The thessalonians were some some of the early ones to come to faith some of the early ones that paul wrote to and saying hey

God's chosen you from the beginning You're also in his plan and we know it because the spirit has come to you

And how do you how do you experience that by being part of that family part of that body? Again, it's always in a corporate context when the words are used

Okay your turn All right. Thank you. Um, so if we turn this around, can you give me an example?

Uh in any other literature where paul is writing personally the pastoral epistles, etc And every says that you an individual were were predestined or or chosen for salvation

Well first I disagree with the interpretation is gave us like the thessalonians. Uh, that's not the context that the context is is talking about, uh, the end times judgment and And uh

Antichrist and things like that, uh, and and so it's not in any way shape or form talking about jews or gentiles in fact

It goes on to say after saying that we shall always give uh, give thanks for you And i'm certain there were jews in the church at thessalonica as well

Brethren be loved by the lord because god has chosen you from the salvation from the beginning for salvation The sanctification of the spirit and faith of truth it was for this he called you through our gospel that you may gain the glory

Of our lord jesus christ. So then brethren stand firm He makes no differentiation there, but I would say that second timothy very clearly does possess that very same, uh, assertion that in talking to timothy and Encouraging him to be faithful and strong in his ministry as a servant of god in the church

What does he base that upon he bases that upon the fact that we as believers? Have received this grace from god from before eternity itself

And that we know whom we have believed and are persuaded he is able to keep that which we've committed to him against that day

Because of the fact that he is the very origin and source of our of our salvation So that would make no sense if paul was not indicating that timothy was uh, participating in this as well.

So Uh, it would be a twofold answer All right, of course, he doesn't use the same terminology with timothy, which is one of one of my points and then for Thessalonians, we need to really start in first thessalonians one and get the larger context there

But that that takes us a bit away, right? Oh it why why the warnings against apostasy, uh in in ephesians the fifth chapter

Why are these strong urgings and saying that certain people not get in and don't let anyone deceive you with this and don't live like this uh, if if that's an impossibility if if the ceiling the guarantee is such that it would be impossible for any

Individual that was part of that body receiving that letter to ever fall away Well, I'll say there's there's the there's a problem with the question right at the end

I've never even suggested and don't know of anyone who has suggested that simply being in a body

Uh means that you'll never fall away The the entire reality is that when you're talking to the gathered church you're talking to a mixed company

Uh, and when paul says that don't be deceived no one who does these things will inherit the kingdom of god

He started off the letter talking about the fact that we've been called unto holiness and sanctification So there would be a gross contradiction for someone to come along and say well

You can simply live your life as you wish and you can engage in these sins We have been called unto holiness and sanctification those who accept that and see that and experience that by the work of the spirit in their lives

Give demonstration of the fact that they have truly Heard the spirit of god and have been changed by the spirit of god those who come along and say otherwise

Are have a false faith they were of us, but they were not truly of us as first john describes them

Okay, so even though they're hearing this letter chosen you chosen, you know, we we us us, right?

It may not apply to all of them Of course not so that so that you as as a member of the elect assured of your salvation

It is impossible then for you to ever fall away A person who is in jesus christ is impossible for christ to lose one of his elect.

That is true So so you can so it's 100 impossible that james white will ever fall away

No, I didn't say that. I said that jesus christ would not lose any one of his own the question you're you're you're confusing the the

Reality that jesus christ would be a perfect savior with my knowledge Or actually not even my knowledge your knowledge of my standing before god

I mean anyone who's been in the church knows that we've met people that Sat next to us in the lord's supper for years on end

And if you had asked is this person in christ? I would have said as far as I can tell he most certainly certainly is and then that person went back to the world

Uh, it's possible so that it's possible then that you are not actually in christ The only way to know for sure is that you persevere to the end who endures the end shall be saved because saving faith endures

Ah, okay. So I have a witness and total assurance. I am in jesus because i've entrusted my life to him

I don't worry don't fear ever question that actually going along here with your viewpoint You would actually have to make it to the end until you know for sure.

No, I I Certainly have a witness that i'm in jesus christ Uh, but I cannot but I cannot know the reality of your witness

Simply by your statement of it any more than you can know the reality of mine What what is the only infallible evidence of that is of course, uh enduring to the end because that demonstrates the supernatural faith but we've gone way over there and in fact, uh,

We'll we'll do the uh, no. No, he's he's he's he'll he'll still have about 20 some odd minutes to rest up before Before you get to actually drive to the studio, but oh,

I didn't know I thought you were in your studio Now I I did it from different location, but i'm 10 minutes away. So i'm good.

All right Okay. All right. So i've just got a three minute closing. You've got three minute closing should have one All right. Okay. Here we go.

Three minute closing uh, we didn't Spend as much time in ephesians one as as as I would like to but I think everyone understands what the difference is here

In essence, I am saying that when paul says just as you were chosen in him before the foundation of the world that god's choice of individuals

Makes up the corporate body The other side is saying god chooses a corporate body that you then by your faith fill up by joining

There is the massive difference between the two readings of this text and I simply submit to you

That when you talk about spiritual blessings in christ when you talk about being holy and blameless before him in love when you talk about Adoption as sons through jesus christ when you talk about forgiveness of sins through his blood

Redemption all these things can not be predicated of a nameless faceless group

This is the very foundation and again Uh with with all all due respect to my my good brother here and in so many ways we argue similarly when we're dealing with with uh

Muslims and we're dealing with joe's witnesses or people who died the deed of christ We're we're right next to each other.

But when it comes to this, I think what we've seen today is when we read these texts We don't read them in the same way and you as the audience have to judge.

Why is that? Because when I read these texts I see what god is doing I see god as the subject

The verbs are god verbs. He's the one doing them and we are the objects

I never see a situation where our decision determines whether god is going to be successful in glorifying himself

And really when we consider this to the praise of his glorious grace if this grace is trying to get everybody into this group

And yet failing Then why is it being praised? These are the questions that must be raised

And yes, the text goes on to explain why it is, uh that we have uh, this this experience in our own lives of repentance and faith and the point of the text is

The reason you repent and believe the reason that you do these things is because of what god has done in eternity

Not just that he made it a possibility not that just he laid out a plan but that he himself is active

He has a sovereign decree and I do want to say that when paul says in in verse 11

The god who works all things after the counsel of his will that is the god of the old testament who?

Brings assyria and brings babylon and says I will accomplish all my will I am the sovereign who can stay my hand

That is the sovereign god Of the old testament that paul is talking about here in the new testament who is accomplishing his will in jesus christ

Okay, michael all yours three minutes, um, yeah, let me affirm again, uh, my my love and appreciation

For for james and the work that he does I was praying for him on his ministry in england

I'm praying for the upcoming debates that he has And I had to actually stir myself to be willing to argue strongly against a brother like this

But I knew it wouldn't be hard once we started to go at it Um, okay, so of ephesians one

There's nothing nameless and faceless. We're talking about god And god from the beginning knew those who would respond to his offer of grace and be his people

He knew he knew me by face before the foundation of the world before I ever had a face before the idea of me ever was

Conceived in the heart of my mother or father So in that sense the choosing is absolutely personal but it's personal by being part of this body in christ

What could be more clear than that and and god does two things by the cross He makes salvation available to the whole world

As his call consistently goes out that he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but desires that all will come and be

Saved and then he 100 Saves fully from beginning to end those who do put their trust in his son jesus

What and it is all by faith, which is the consistent testimony of the scripture

All we can say is I receive your gracious author helpless worthless as I am

And then we become adopted into his family and he knew us by name by face From the very beginning that we would be part of that people that he predestined to glory

So there's no failure There is the perfect accomplishment of god's plan And part of his plan was to give human beings a choice the god of the old testament grieved over the actions of man

Hence a flood the god of the old testament often said to israel. I never intended this for you This was absolutely not what

I wanted for you and offered them life and grieved over it Which is why jesus said that he often gathered

Desired to gather jerusalem to himself, but his people were not willing It's it's god's willingness and man's unwillingness and yet through it

God gets for himself a people that no one can number That's the god of the old testament and the god of the new testament

And I take very seriously the fact that the spirit's been given to me as a deposit and i've now been

Identified by the spirit being given to me as one of god's own so I have no fear I never worry for a split second about apostatizing

I don't see it as a possibility in my life because i've put my trust in a good and gracious savior who will keep me to the end

Should my heart become hard and I turn away from them I have nothing but fear and trembling because every anything that is promised to me as wrath

But I say that those who believe as I believe have far more assurance and far more peace than those who say

I can only Know for sure that i'm truly one of god's own if I persevere in holiness to the end

But let me again emphasize our deep commonality. We're saved through the blood of jesus

By god's grace, we will be together forever and then we'll find out who was right and wrong at that point

All right. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Thank you michael brown for being on the program today

We'll get this up online next week thursday same time a different set of verses and a reversed order in the debate on next thursday the fact that it's april 1st has

No relevance whatsoever. It just happens to be how it worked out and michael will be on his program here in about 25 minutes or so.

Uh You can I don't know what he's gonna talk about. He said he didn't know he's gonna be talking about I don't know if he'd want you to call him and talk about this or not

I don't know, but we'll be with you on tuesday here on the dividing line. We'll see you then god bless You The dividing line has been brought to you by alpha and omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602

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Where you'll find a complete listing of james white's books tapes debates and tracks Join us again next tuesday morning at 11 a .m.