Responding to Objections to the Doctrine of Election

Timothy 2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence

Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reform to Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr.

White, you can call now by dialing 5 0 8 0 9 60. That's 5 0 8 0 9 60 and now with today's topic.

Here's James White and good afternoon and welcome to the dividing line You may be a little bit confused

You may be thinking that you're about to listen to the Bible answer man broadcast, but I hate to tell you this

But you just missed it. It is on from 1 till 2 p .m. Now and we're on from 2 to 3 p .m

Here live on kpxq and that means you do have one opportunity that you had do not

Otherwise have it 2 o 'clock on Saturday afternoons and that is you can pick up the phone and you can dial 5 0 8 0 9 60 with your questions and comments 5 0 8 0 9 60 and as far as we can tell this is where we're gonna be for a

While, so hopefully you can put that on your calendar and make that adjustment and those of you who are used to listening to the

Bible Answer man that's on from 1 to 2 But we hope you'll stick with us here on the dividing line as we tackle many of the same issues that are discussed on the

Bible answer man broadcast a few that we are not and They discuss a few things that we don't as well.

So I guess that's a fair trade -off In fact to give you an example today one of the things

I'd like to be looking at and get your involvement your comments on is the subject of objections to Election objections to the concept that God predestines and elects and you might say wow, that's not exactly a subject we hear a lot of Discussion about on the radio and that's true

In fact, most of the discussion you'll hear on the radio about this subject is how to get it off of the radio as quickly as Possible and on to another subject

But in reality, I was looking at a web page Actually, I saw this list of questions.

I Would say probably about six months or so ago. I downloaded them. I had the intention of possibly

Addressing them in the future hadn't gotten around to it. Someone again sent us the URL to these this web page just recently and I thought it was an excellent example to give you an idea of Some of the objections that people raise to the

Reformed Faith I'm an elder and Reformed Baptist Church and unashamedly Calvinistic in my belief.

I believe that Calvinism as we call it, which is just a nickname is merely another way of referring to being

Consistent in your biblical exegesis and your biblical belief I believe it is the inevitable result of believing in solo scriptura and tota scriptura

I believe that when you allow all of Scripture to speak for itself when you take it in its own context and you don't try to duck out of the quote -unquote tough questions that the result of that is

The doctrines that have been understood is the doctrines of grace the sovereignty of God the total inability of man the unconditional electing grace of God the particular redeeming work of Christ where he truly saves those for whom he dies the

Irresistibility of the saving grace of God and the perseverance of the Saints You may have recognized that as the tulip or the five points of Calvinism but I threw a sixth one in there that just to keep you off balance called the sovereignty of God because we can't assume that One anymore that may have been assumed at one point in the past, but that's not the assumption

Unfortunately in many evangelical churches today. Well, I was given this web page And it's a fairly well -known web page and this is entitled 11 questions on Calvinism and the

Calvinist worldview and what I'd like to do here at the beginning is take a look at Some of these questions as examples of Really where I think the conversation doesn't need to be going because many of these questions simply are

Are they demonstrate to us the fact that most of the conversation doesn't really take?

Seriously what the issues are doesn't really understand what the issues are take things out of context things like that But most importantly,

I think these illustrate the necessity of being good students of the Word of God Good students of what the scriptures say and why the scriptures say it and the need to engage in deep exegesis of the scriptures

To to really handle a right the Word of God. Let me give you just the first question as an example number one

It is often said by Calvinist that dead men can't respond as you say quote

You are dead in your trespasses and sins and quote Ephesians 2 1 in Romans 6

It says that quote in the same way count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus and quote

If being dead in sin means you can't respond to God then does being dead to sin

Mean that the Christian cannot respond to sin Here is the question that is put forward

Well, let's think about this together for a few moments It is often said by Calvinist that dead men can't respond and I would agree with that assertion

That is that a man who is spiritually dead cannot do anything that is spiritually pleasing in God's sight and is incapable of undertaking

Spiritual actions that are pleasing to God for example in Romans chapter 8 Paul says that those who are coins of flesh do not submit themselves to law of God neither

Are they even even able to do so those who are in the flesh cannot please God and of course the

Lord Jesus taught this as well in John 6 When he said no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day

So very clearly we definitely believe that dead men can't respond Lazarus could not just come walking out of the tomb by himself

He had to be given life By the Lord Jesus when he said Lazarus come forth and then you do have the quotation of Ephesians 2 1 you were dead in your trespasses and sins

Then we have this interesting quotation from Romans chapter 6 in the same way Count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus now again in the context

This is an exhortation to Christians to consider themselves as dead to sin

That is to have the mindset that sin no longer rules over me sin No longer has any power over me that I am not to yield my members in the service of sin

Instead the opposite of that mindset is to being alive to God in Christ Jesus that is it is to be the

Christians mindset that we are to be living servants of God in Christ Jesus Well that makes perfect sense

That's what Romans 6 is about is is the whole discussion of our deadness to sin and our being alive in Christ And the newness of our life so on and so forth

Now how you then take those two completely different contexts and Completely different subjects and come up with a question out of them

I'm not really sure but one thing we certainly should learn as we listen to any conversation any dialogue in a debate is that very frequently

Individuals will give us bad arguments by mixing contexts and so the question is asked if being dead in sin

Means one can't respond to God Then does being dead to sin mean that the

Christian cannot respond to sin? Now such a question Commits about three or four category errors

It assumes that the meaning dead in one place is identical to dead in another it mixes context

It plays with the phrase respond to sin whatever in the world that means there are numerous problems with it

But obviously the main problem is being dead in our trespasses and sins in the context in which that is discussed in Ephesians 2

Results in necessity of God having to make us alive Contrast that with Romans 6 where it says count yourselves dead to sin that is reckon yourselves consider yourselves

This is something we do as a mindset Now to mix those two together Absolutely boggles the mind that someone could actually come up with a question that puts those things together in that way the second question of the 11 that are asked

Is very very common and and very very useful to examine the Bible says in 1st

Timothy 2 for God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth It also states that God wants all men to be saved in 2nd

Peter 3 9 Matthew 23 37 and Ezekiel 33 11 and 18 30 Obviously not all men are saved.

How does Calvinism explain this? Does the God of Calvinism have two wills that are in direct contradiction and I'm just reading this.

This is directly off the web page and hence have a multiple personality disorder That's the question

The question is after citing 1st Timothy 2 for in 2nd Peter 3 9

How does Calvinism explain this does the God of Calvinism have two wills that are in direct contradiction and hence have a multiple personality?

Disorder well Very interesting 1st Timothy 2 for Does refer to God wanting all men to be saved?

Of course, I have noticed that the citations in this particular passage are a little bit loose

They're not exactly the where they should be specifically when Paul addresses this

Passage in 1st Timothy, let me read the entire section so you can get the context First of all, then

I urge that in treaties and prayers petitions and thanksgivings Be made on behalf of all men for kings and all who are in authority so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life

And all godliness and dignity This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of The truth for there is one

God and one mediator also between God and men the man Christ Jesus Who gave himself as a ransom for all the testimony given at the proper time?

So the question that is being asked is in light of this and the passage of 2nd Peter 3 9

How does Calvinism explain this? Well? Some Calvinists will actually say that this passage and 2nd

Peter 3 9 Are both in reference to what's called the universal call of the gospel or the universal offer of the gospel

But I don't agree with that perspective I think if you examine the context of both passages you will discover that very consistently the

Apostle Paul Walks the balance of truth and in this passage if we think for just a few moments

We can ask ourselves a question When in it says God our Savior who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

Does that mean all men individually or all kinds of men and someone says? Oh, that's you're just begging the question

I say no wait a minute think for just a moment does the passage Discuss kinds of men and in fact it does in fact the very first verse says be made at behalf of all

Men for kings and all who are in authority Now what are kings and those who are in authority they are a kind or a class of men they are rulers and Paul says he wants prayers to be made now.

Why would he have to say that I mean isn't it? Just generally true the Christians would pray for everybody Well Christians were a persecuted minority at this time

And they were persecuted by those who were in authority and Paul says I want you to pray for all kinds of men including those kinds

Of men that you might not want to pray for those who are persecuting you those who are mistreating you

Paul had been Mistreated and persecuted not by poor people But by those who are in authority and so yes the passage does refer to kinds of men are there other clues that this is what?

The passage is talking about yes Because the very next verse after verse 4 verse 5 says for there is one

God and one Mediator also between God and men the man Christ Jesus now for whom does

Christ mediate I? Have honestly in and and I haven't talked to every person who disagrees the reformed perspective but in all of the conversations that I have had

With those who reject the concept of predestination election as laid out in Scripture When this passage has come up I have always asked the question for whom does

Christ mediate and so far Every person I've talked to had never even thought about that had never even considered the question hmm well if verse 4 means all men individually then by Context then verse 5 must mean all men individually as well, and that means that I believe that Christ mediates for all men

Well if Christ mediates for all men dies for every every man Mediates for every man, then why isn't any man every man saved well because Christ's death and mediation isn't enough

Is that what someone really wants to say? Very rarely have any has anyone gone to that type of depth and raising these types of issues

Unfortunately, I think that's exactly what we need to do and so there is a consistent understanding of first Timothy chapter 2 verse 4

That understands what Paul is saying in light of the context in which he's saying it the same thing is true

And I addressed this a little while back in 2nd Peter chapter 3 verse 9 of Gagana very common passage

Let's read verses 8 and 9 But do not let this one fact escape your notice beloved That with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day the

Lord is not slow about his promise As some count slowness, but is patient towards you not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance well, the question assumes that what that means is the any means any individual on the face of the planet and therefore that this means that it is

God's will and God's desire that every single person come to a knowledge of repentance and That therefore this is what it's talking about.

Again. There are reformed people who say yes This is just talking about the general will of God in the sense that God commands every man everywhere to repent

But again, I think the context indicates otherwise 2nd Peter is written to those received a faith the same kind or this is as precious as our own is written to the elect look at 2nd

Peter 1 1 the context of 2nd Peter 3 9 is the Parousia the coming of Christ and Peter is discussing.

Why has there been this delay? Why is it that there is this time period between the Ascension and the coming of Christ and he's explaining why this?

This delay exists and he's saying there's gonna be those who come they're gonna they're gonna mock the promise They're gonna say where is the promise of his coming, etc, etc, etc

And then he has this statement and it's in the context of his promise.

It's not slow about his promise That is the promised coming Well, then why has this promised coming been delayed so that all of God's elect people can be brought into Relationship with him if the

Lord had returned a thousand years ago you and I would be in big trouble We would not have been brought into relationship with him and so the passage

I believe is talking about why the Parousia has been delayed and is giving as the answer for that delay in the parousia the fact that he is gathering his people into the church

That does not result then in God having a quote -unquote personality disorder as the question asked

It does say does the God of Calvinism And that almost sounds like they're saying that there's a

God of Calvinism There's a God of the Arminians and so on so forth But does the God of Calvinism have two wills that are in direct contradiction and hence have a multiple personality disorder.

Well It is interesting. I really don't believe that Whatever perspective a person holds if you believe in the scriptures that you don't have to deal with the fact

That there is a revealed will of God that is general you shall not murder But there is also the very specific will of God that is revealed which has included the existence of murder

I don't think rejecting Calvinism gets you out of having to answer that question It is very plain for example when the early church the early church didn't try to get out of Having these two different perspectives standing side by side

Because when the early church prayed in Acts chapter 4, for example, they didn't blush to say the following words

For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed

Both Herod and Pontius Pilate along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel to do whatever your hand and your purpose predestined to occur now what

Herod and Pontius Pilate and the Gentiles and the people of Israel did was they murdered the sinless

Son of God and They nailed him to a tree. They caused his death. That's against the general revealed will of God But it is very plain beyond any question that the cross of Jesus Christ is a part of the very will of God that he is the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth and That here in Acts 4 28 that these people did whatever your hand and your purpose predestined to occur so whatever you do, you've got to deal with that and If my

God has a personality disorder and you believe Acts 4 28, then I guess yours does too Let's not talk about things like the

God of Calvinism or the God of somebody else question number three Calvinism and I'm just reading these these are directly off and I suppose let me find it.

Oh I didn't I printed this off my hard drive. So the URL is no longer there

You can pull this off at www .answers

.org Go to Theology and I think underneath the theology you'll find 11 questions on Calvinism and Calvinist worldview,

I think But since I printed off my hard drive It only shows me where it is on my hard drive

Which hopefully will not be of any use to anyone else because you're not getting into my hard drive to track this particular thing down third question

Calvinism excludes Individual faith from the salvation process

Classifying such faith as a work How can Calvinist classify faith as a work?

When Paul specifically excludes faith from works in Romans 3 27 through 28 and Romans 4 or 5

Now the only thing that I've written on this is three question marks after the question because I can't believe

That someone could come up with a question like this Calvinism excludes individual faith in the salvation process.

Excuse me We're no longer saved by grace through faith No what the person who came up with this question is probably asking or probably thinking about is

That Calvinism does as the Bible does Say that faith is the gift of God.

It is not a human work It is not something saving faith. Anyways is not the type of faith that Just any old man on the street can just sort of muster up from himself any time

He jolly well feels like it. It is a gift from God as is repentance for that matter So when it says

Calvinism excludes individual faith in the salvation process, I would correct that to say Calvinism excludes the idea that man's faith is a saving faith or To put it the way

I think it was well put by someone this past week The issue is

Between saying that faith is something we give to God or saying that faith is something given to us by God I think that's another good way of putting it so When it says how can

Calvinist classify faith as a work when Paul specifically includes excludes faith from works in Romans 3 27 28 and 4 5

Calvinists do not classify faith as a work They say that true and saving faith comes from God and hence those beautiful passages

Romans 3 27 to 28 and probably one of my favorite passages in all of Scripture Romans 4 5 have

Absolutely positively nothing to do whatsoever With the question at hand next question.

I Love this one Jonah 2 8 Jonah 2 8 says that quote those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs end quote

If as Calvinism teaches God determined before time Began who would be reprobates and therefore does not extend the grace to them by which they could be saved

How logically can we understand this versus statement that these reprobates quoted?

These reprobates quote forfeited the grace that could be theirs Here is a wonderful example of why you need more than one translation of the

Bible Because I don't know what translation that is I'm gonna guess off the top of my head It might be the

NIV, but I don't know. I don't have an IV with me to check But the New American Standard Bible from the

Lachman Foundation. In fact, that's the 1995 edition updated Just thought I'd mention that in passing says quote those who regard vain idols forsake their faithfulness

But I will sacrifice to you with the voice of thanksgiving Now in context that's pretty obvious what's being said

It's talking about idolaters and how they forsake their faithfulness I think the

New King James says forsake mercy or something along those lines And then the contrast is made to Jonah who sacrifices to God with the voice of thanksgiving so that seems to me to indicate that the

Text utilized does not exactly substantiate the question that is then asked from it

Next question and I this starts the way as questions should start the Bible says I like questions that start with Bible passages that are relevant in John 6 44 now there is a passage that I like in fact

I should just mention in passing that my book on John 6 35 through 45 drawn by the father has just been reprinted by Reformation Press and we had actually given all of our old copies of that book away, but it's now available again in a nice pretty new cover and It's available through Alpha Omega Ministries If you'd like to track that down the

Bible says in John 6 44 No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him That's true

The same word draw and it is Hell Crusoe is used in John 12 32

Which says but I when I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto myself

Matthew 23 37 says that men can resist God's will How do you answer this problem in Calvinism now obviously?

There's two questions here the first is John 6 44 talks about the drawing of the father to the son and That no man can come to Christ unless the father who sent me draws him

That's quite true. And in fact the context of John chapter 6 is without question the sovereignty of God and salvation

You begin at verse 35 you read through to verse 45 and over and over again

It is clearly presented to us that God in his sovereignty draws actually gives a people under the

Sun and that then he draws that people under the Sun and he commits them into the

Sun's care and He commits to the Sun the charge that he not lose any of them, but he raised them all up at the last day

So John 6 the context is specifically salvation It's specifically how individuals are saved now in John 12 32 the same word is used

But I when I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto myself and being lifted up from the earth as the passage

Indicates is the means by which he was going to die. He was going to be lifted up on the cross

So it sounds like the questioner is trying to create a contrast between John 6 44 and John 12 32

Assuming that the phrase all men means every individual person But this is another one of those wonderful passages that clearly illustrates that When the passage speaks of all men you have to ask the question

Do you mean all men individually or do you are you referring to all men of a specific group?

For if there is anything that is in arguable from a New Testament perspective it is that the cross of Jesus Christ is foolishness

To the vast majority of individuals it is in fact something that repels

Both Jews and Greeks. I mean Paul has an entire discussion of this it is foolishness in the sight of the

Greeks it's a stumbling block in the sight of the Jews and So obviously when

Jesus says I will draw all men to myself If we allow all of scripture to stand that's not referring to the idea of every single individual

Finds the cross of Jesus Christ To be something that is a that draws them that attracts them in no way shape or form

Instead again in the context what's happening in John chapter 12? What has caused the

Lord Jesus to say these words? This is the end of the Lord Jesus's public ministry and The last things that he's saying are in direct response to the fact that some

Greeks came seeking after Jesus Who are these individuals Greeks?

They're Gentiles Gentiles coming to seek after the Jewish Messiah and in that context he says

I will draw all men to myself Jew and Gentile That's why Revelation chapter 5 can refer to the

Lamb standing as if slain in heaven and Say by your blood you have purchased for God men from every tribe tongue people a nation

That's what all men means in John 12 32 and Then we have a separate question

Which I will hold off until after the break and that is Matthew 23 37 says that men can resist

God's will well That's actually not a quotation of Matthew 23 37 but we'll take a look at that and Take your phone calls at 5 0 8 0 9 60 5 0 8 0 9 60 if you're outside the dialing area 1 triple 8 talk 9 60 we'd like to hear from you

Maybe you have some specific questions. You'd like to ask in regard to this subject We'd invite you to give us a call 5 0 8 0 9 60.

We'll be right back and welcome back to the dividing line

My name is James White and it's good to be with you this afternoon And I unfortunately

I'm listening to myself in delay on my headsets Which is making everything sound very very strange

And let's go to that and that sounds so much better than when you do it the other way around Anyways, we're talking about some interesting things this afternoon.

At least. I hope they're interesting to you I hope that you will take the time to join us today at 5 0 8 0 9 60 5 0 8 0 9 60 is the phone number

Before we went to the break we were looking at some questions that people have suggested be asked to Calvinists and that's what

I am, so I've been asking those questions and answering some of them and the last one indicated at Matthew 2337 this is a popular passage

Matthew 2337. This is where a lot of people end up going Jesus says Jerusalem Jerusalem who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her how often

I wanted to gather your children together the way a Hen gathers her chicks under her wings and you were unwilling behold

Your house is left to you desolate for I say to you from now on you will not see me until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the

Lord and here a passage from the Lord Jesus addressing the people of Israel and Specifically speaking of the fact that he is the one who has sent prophets

To Israel over and over and over again That's what the entire Old Testament almost is is witness to is

God's constant calling of the people of Israel to repentance is proclamation of judgment upon them over and over and over again and yet they were

Unwilling and the idea is see God wanted to do this God Was really trying but the unwillingness the people of Israel stymied

God's ability To bring people to repentance that seemingly is what is being read into this passage of Scripture rather than Simply allowing it to say what

I think it says and first of all this is addressed to Jerusalem is Jerusalem a person

I Don't think there's anyone named Jerusalem specifically Obviously, this is

Jerusalem being taken as the capital city of the nation of Israel and As soon as you put it in that context the entire argument falls apart because now we're talking obviously about God's activities throughout history to bring the people of Israel to repentance the cycle they went through over and over and over again of rebuke punishment falling into apostasy

Repentance restoration, I mean the process that goes over and over and over again the New Testament tells us is meant for our edification for our warning for our example as Paul uses it when he writes to the

Corinthians So it's it's amazing that in a context that has nothing to do with Discussions of God's sovereign will and men's wills or anything else

That all of a sudden that passage becomes used to say that men can resist God's will if you mean that in a sense that God's will is that we all be perfectly loving and Obey every element of God's law will of course men resist

God's will but when Calvinists talk about Irresistible grace they're talking about God's action of regeneration of bring a person to spiritual life

Not the idea that men can resist God's law or do this or do that or the other thing There are many places however in Scripture that clearly teach us that God is sovereign over the actions of men that he can even keep men from sinning if he so chooses to do so and If that is therefore the case then who is indeed the sovereign creator?

We will take one more question, and then we will go to our first caller There are lines open for you at five zero eight zero nine sixty five zero eight zero nine

Sixty the Bible says in second Thessalonians 210 that reprobates quote perish because they refused

To love the truth and so be saved end quote From your

Calvinistic worldview how can it logically be said that a reprobate refuses to love the truth and so be saved?

When your God determines that the reprobate can't love the truth can't be saved and therefore it doesn't refuse

God at all Well Of course the question is is any of that true?

Well first of all when you look at second Thessalonians 210 again I'm not sure what translations being used there, but it's it's not the new

American standard anyways second Thessalonians 210 specifically says and With all the deception of wickedness for those who perish because they did not receive the love of the truth

So as to be saved So there is a tremendous contrast between those who are perishing and those who are being saved

Those who are being saved are lovers of the truth those who are perishing are those who will not receive or will not love the truth

But the question is from your Calvinistic worldview How can it logically be said that a reprobate refuses to love the truth?

I would say that a reprobate refuses to love the truth that it is an action of the will of the unregenerate man

That he does not love the truth I'm having a problem with that that a reprobate refuses to love the truth and so be saved when your

God Determines that the reprobate can't love the truth now. There's There's where the rub is

Because the assumption that is being made here is that you have this morally neutral Reprobate which the term doesn't work very well, but you have this morally neutral reprobate

Who is being prevented by God From loving the truth you see if God wasn't preventing him from loving the truth then then he might do that But since God is preventing him from loving the truth, then he can't

The problem of course is that's not what the Reformed position says the person refuses to love the truth

Because it is their nature to love error to love the lie

That's the deceptiveness of sin. That's the the horribleness of sin is That those who are in sin are

Slaves to sin to use the words Lord Jesus They are unable to submit themselves to the law of God to use the words of Paul They will not submit to God's truth.

They are enemies of God and So it is not like they are

Neutral and God forces them to be his enemies. No The very nature that is theirs is that they reject

God's truth because that is the natural thing for them to do Can't be saved and therefore as the questioner puts it doesn't refuse

God at all No, it is the very nature of The person who rejects

God's truth of the to use the terminology used here the reprobate To detest God's truth to detest

God's law and to do everything he can To rebel against God's law that can be religious rebellion.

It can be atheistic rebellion It can be sinful rebellion the sense of of going out and and getting salves and doing drugs and murdering and stealing and whatever it might

Be but it's sinful whatever it is That is the nature of the reprobate person in point of fact.

I would say that God God reigns in the evil of that individual and Actually does a tremendous amount of curbing of the evil of man

But that's a whole nother issue that we can get in another time. And so again the questions that are asked normally are

Asked of a position that is not actually taken and are based upon ignorance not upon the actual truth of the position

Five zero eight zero nine sixty five zero eight zero nine sixty is the number that Michael called.

Hello, Michael. How are you? Good. How are you? Hello, Michael. Hello. Are you there?

Hello, I'm here. I Unfortunately, I'm not able to hear Michael.

Hello. I'm here. Well, that's interesting Hello, okay,

I got you go ahead Sorry about that that's not was my problem. Okay. I I just wanted to say that I in reference to this entire issue of Calvinism and Predestination and election and whatnot on that is in fact this very issue that on I would say that in Examining it biblically that brought me back to faith in Christ after many years of Studying philosophy and other religions and things like that.

I just simply couldn't reconcile The existence of an omniscient God with the

With what I perceived to be a man's free will and for years and years I lost sleep over well if man has free will then

God doesn't know everything but if God knows everything then we don't have free will and that's only an illusion and I just like to say that it was in re -examining

Romans chapter 9 over several readings that this entire issue was

Explained to me in in ways that I can't explain other than that Anyone that has a struggle with this issue should really read

Romans chapter 9 Most definitely that is the anvil upon which many a hammer has been broken

There are various and sundry Answers that have been offered to Romans chapter 9 the most common answer is well

That really doesn't have anything to do with individual salvation That really has to do with The idea of nations and in sort of a general overall judging of God and so on and so forth

But if you start at the beginning of the chapter and you walk through verse by verse, you just can't substantiate that Especially in the light of the fact that people say well

You know Jacob I love but Esau I hated well that actually comes from from Malachi. It doesn't come from Genesis So this is talking about nations and not people the problem with that is if you just back up just a little bit

It's specifically is talking about the twins. It's talking about before they were born or had done anything good or bad.

It was said Jacob I loved that the older will serve the younger and then the application is made made later on Jacob I love but Esau I hated now you maybe you'll say well doesn't it have something to do with Edom and and things like that?

Maybe by extension it does but those words had meaning in Individual lives and demonstrated the sovereignty of God in those situations in the same way with Pharaoh Where he raises up Pharaoh for a specific purpose to glorify his name at a specific time

And that's not just the Egyptians as a people This is a specific individual and so the application that Paul is making throughout that passage is is very specific

And it's interesting that you mentioned that because one of the questions that we are going to address today says quote in Romans 9 where God says

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. Why do you that is Calvinist? Automatically assume that God does not want to have mercy on all but only have mercy on the select few

When God clearly tells us in Romans 11 32 that quote God has bound all men over to disobedience

So that he may have mercy on them all and quote if you say that all means all classes of men

But all not all men in every class Then why does it not mean all classes of men but not all men in every class in Romans 3 23 where it says all

Has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Does this mean some have not sinned perhaps for its instance the

Virgin Mary? And I I just you know, I don't you know,

I don't mean to be disrespectful But it's like can we can we stay in one context at all here?

It has been my my experience and maybe it's been yours Michael but I and I ran into this a lot that most of the time when these passages are brought up the responses require you to leave the context and go somewhere else and talk about something else rather than dealing with the passage in its own context and Romans 9

Ephesians 1 John 6 each one of those passages has had the exact same effect But I'd say

Michael only by the grace of God because that very same passage of Scripture Could without the grace of God being operative in your life

I've seen it I've seen many a person look me in the face with hatred in their voice and say

I would never Worship a God who was like that. We all have to recognize that were it not for the grace of God We would we would all respond in that way as well

So I'm very thankful that God used his truth to draw you back and to give you a solid foundation

Michael And I thank you for pre calling in and sharing that with us. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

God bless We need to take a break. We'll be back with your phone calls right after this

The phone lines are now open at 5 0 8 0 9 6 that's 5 0 8 0 9 60

Please call because the more my husband talks now the less he'll talk when he gets home. I Just want everybody to know

I wrote that section no one needs to blame my wife For saying that or anything like that, but hey, we've got phone callers.

We need to get to him. This is Dennis. Hello, Dennis Hey, I'm back. Yeah at one point

I was gonna Like beg you to pre record programs or at least do reruns

You know what? I hate to tell you this but rich is sitting right across from me and here they're riches mics

Oh, would you like to say thank you Dennis? Oh, there we go. There we go To improve what

I managed to catch Giving the encouragement the the the edification yes,

I hate to tell you this Dennis, but but rich and the gang will be helping me out about seven times this fall because I'm teaching a

Systematic theology class for Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary down in Tucson. It'll meet Friday nights and Saturday mornings and So and in the

Saturday afternoons, so we may have a Planning session on topics and one of them will be doing a program on the dangers of Dennis from Phoenix That may be one of the things welcome.

It could take quite some time. Hey, talk to us Dennis. What's going on? Oh mercy That's a good thing to have going on.

Well, thank you for calling Dennis. I appreciate Yes, okay Man it's what's so ironic is

You were talking to the guy about Romans 9 and all that and the argument given against it It was like wait a minute didn't

I just hear like three four days ago Hank Canegraaff making that same bad argument Well, I don't know the

Dennis. No, actually I did I did hear this past week a discussion of sovereignty and divine will on The Bible answer man show and one of the things

I was gonna address but I obviously am way too wordy is the concept of class election and some of my problems with class election the idea that Christ is the elect one and Therefore if we are in him, then we are elect

But if we're not in him, we're not elect But Christ is the elect one and and I wanted to walk through Ephesians chapter 1 or Romans chapter 9 either one

But especially Ephesians chapter 1 to demonstrate that while election is all in Christ It is we who were chosen in him not he who was chosen and then we somehow join ourselves

To him by the exercise of an autonomous will The question that is the way it's always stated is well

It's not a matter of if there is election, but on what basis that's quite true But the basis

I think very plainly in Ephesians chapter 1 is the sovereign will and purpose of God And so there are this is you know, we may call this the debate

But it's unfortunately most of the time the debate actually isn't joined. It needs to be joined It needs to be discussed because this does impact the very nature of the gospel presentation as we make it

Yeah, if it if it has to do with individual salvation if it has to do with eternal salvation then obviously

We're not talking about nations being saved but individuals being saved Most most definitely that would be the case what they have is thinking, you know, people will say

God is sovereign Well, how can God be sovereign except and this exception is such a major one has to do with whether or not

I'm going to heaven Or hell now the exception the exception will almost always at least in my experience

The exception will be the the means by which you can confess God's sovereignty, but still

Make sure that ultimately in the final analysis It is the decision the autonomous decision of the individual human being that ends up determining whether he is or is not saved

Now Dennis, this is rich. I just want to let you know that you know in future programs We really could use your help, you know

And if you were to call in with questions and comments like this, we really could have had a much better program before, you know

I'm rehashing Unprepared to go

Well now you can't that's right now you can't That's yeah, that's different than the epistle of James, which is very different.

That's right Well, we appreciate the call today Dennis believe it or not We have another caller we'd like to get to so look forward to hearing from you again.

God bless All right, 2 to 3 p .m. That's right. Keep that in mind. Thanks. God bless a

Jennifer in Tempe. How are you? Hi, how are you doing? Okay, I was raised

Catholic I've also gone to Jehovah Witness Church, and I've been to the

Mormons Wow. Okay, because I was Searching. Okay. Okay. So my question for you is what's the difference between Reform Baptist and a

Baptist I have a cousin who's a Baptist. Mm -hmm Well that cousin may be reformed and just not use the terminology it's somewhat

Somewhat ambiguous at that point, but the difference between a reformed Baptist and a Baptist really has to do normally with what we've been talking about today a reformed

Baptist Clearly states his or her belief in the fact that God is sovereign over all things

That men are dead in their sins That Jesus Christ is a perfect Savior who dies in the place of God's people provides perfect redemption for them and that God by his spirit draws his elect people unto himself and that the gospel is the work of God Not the work of man now

Baptist historically at least For example Southern Baptist historically used to believe that as well

And there are still many Southern Baptists who do but most Baptists and I'm just using the term in a general way

Most Baptists have embraced a concept that would include the idea that while God has provided a way of salvation in Christ He doesn't actually save Outside of man's quote -unquote cooperation or outside the exercise of man's autonomous will and So that would be one of the fundamental differences, but all

Baptists if they truly are Baptist Would specifically emphasize the fact that salvation is by grace through faith

It is not the result of ones being baptized. It's not the result of ones being a member of a particular

Church Salvation is totally the work of God in the sense that Jesus Christ is the perfect Savior and All the groups that you've talked to me about are the very groups that that we address in various and sundry ways

Both in regards to for example, I just came back from Long Island from doing a debate on the mass with a

Roman Catholic representative we have information sharing with Jehovah's Witnesses were very much involved in talking to the

LDS people and so all of those areas are areas that We could provide you a lot of information on if as you put it you are searching

Okay I Okay, speak up just a little bit for us. Thank you.

I have been to Jehovah Witness Church, and I noticed that they really teach a lot from Bible and also

I have been to a Baptist and they teach from the Bible too. Okay, so But the

Mormons I hardly heard anything about the Bible very much And as Catholicism they have they read a paragraph during the mass, right?

Well real quickly because we're about out of time Let me let me mention to you if you'd like to get information about all these things

Listen carefully when the program goes off there a number will be given to we'd love to send you some information on these topics

But very quickly, let me just give you one real quick word of warning Yes, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Jehovah's Witnesses Does use the

Bible but the Bible they're using is a mistranslation of the Bible called the New World Translation That is specifically rendered to hide specific doctrines

That are opposed to their beliefs. So let us get information into your hands about that Give us a ring during the week at nine seven three zero three one eight.

That's nine seven nine seven three zero three one eight and We can get that information out to you

The New World Translation is a very difficult translation to to discuss even briefly or even over a long period of time

But help us to get in touch with you and we'll get that information to you. Okay? Okay. All right. Thank you very much

God bless Jennifer. Thank you for being with us. We'll be back next week at two o 'clock. Not one o 'clock two o 'clock here on the dividing line

Thanks for being with us The dividing line is a presentation of Alpha and Omega ministries, you can contact us at six.

Oh two nine, seven three Zero three one eight or you can write us at P o box three seven one zero six,

Phoenix, Arizona eight five zero six nine We are easy to find on the World Wide Web at www .aomin

.org That's www .aomin .org

You can also find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks on our website