March 8, 2021 Show with Vince Hinders on “Ministering to Those Who Have Aborted Their Babies”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this eighth day of March 2021.

I'm so thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest, Vince Henders, executive pastor at Redeeming Grace Church of Fairfax, Virginia.

And today we are going to be addressing a theme that we have never addressed, at least as a full subject of discussion during the entire program, ministering to those who have aborted their babies.

In fact, we're going to be even focusing more on an even more rarely discussed subject, the men involved in these tragic, horrific, and sinful decisions.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Vince Henders. Thank you,

Chris. Thanks for having me. To introduce you to people who have never heard from you before and to refresh the memories of those who have heard you on the program before, tell us about Redeeming Grace Church of Fairfax, Virginia.

Yeah, we're located in Fairfax, Virginia, a suburb of Washington, D .C. We're about one mile from George Mason University, the largest public university in the

Commonwealth of Virginia. And we've been around a little over 40 years here in our location, or in our community, and about 30 years in this building.

And, yeah, we're Reformed, Baptistic, and I've been on staff for almost 24 years now.

My current role is the Executive Pastor, and given my own testimony and coming to faith in Christ, the topic that we're talking about today is one that I do meet with people to talk about and help them to see the grace of God in the midst of their situation.

Amen. Well, if anybody wants to find out more about Redeeming Grace Church of Fairfax, Virginia, go to rgcfairfax .org.

R -G -C for Redeeming Grace Church. Fairfax, F -A -I -R -F -A -X dot org.

Well, this is quite a difficult subject to handle, because there are a couple of things that Christians have to keep in balance when ministering to those who have committed such a heinous sin as aborting their children or a child.

On the one hand, the very fact that you're ministering to them is because they are acknowledging that they have done something tragically wrong.

They are harboring guilt. They are filled with depression. And I'm speaking of the specific people today whom are requesting help in this matter.

Obviously, if people are flippant over this or even celebratory over committing these heinous acts, they're not going to be seeking forgiveness from God.

They're not going to be trying to alleviate their guilt, et cetera, because they have no felt guilt.

But those that are, especially those in the body of Christ who have committed these sins, we have to treat them with compassion, love, and sensitivity without, on the other hand, undermining the severity of what they have done.

Even if it is, of course, a past act, we can't undermine the seriousness of it.

We can't sweep it under the rug. And, of course, there are going to be different ways when subjects like these are treated, because sometimes you may have an actual member of a church who has already professed

Christ, who reveals this to you, something that they have done after perhaps joining the church and becoming a member, because they have made a credible profession of faith, been baptized, et cetera.

So, obviously, that's going to be a different situation than somebody who has done this in their past, before their rebirth, before their baptism, et cetera.

But tell us about your own personal experience with this subject.

Sure. So I was raised in a nominally religious home, not an evangelical home.

And by about middle school, I sort of said, hey, I'm not really going to church anymore. And so I pretty much chose myself a lifestyle that really tried to acclimate myself to the culture around me, try to be wealthy, try to have as many girlfriends as you can.

I lived a very immoral lifestyle through high school and college and post -college. And at one point, when

I was in my mid -20s, I was not a Christian, and one of the women that I was dating informed me that she was pregnant with a child.

And I was planning to go to grad school a couple months from then. And so I asked her,

I said, well, what do you want to do? And she said, well, we're not really going anywhere as a relationship, and I don't want to have a baby now.

And so she said she wanted to have an abortion. And in that moment, instead of being honorable and doing the right thing,

I was a coward. And I said, hey, well, I'll support you in whatever you want to do.

And I pacified myself thinking that was a kind thing to do, but in reality I knew in my heart that it was the wrong thing to do.

But I was selfish. I didn't want this to interfere with my plans. And so sadly and regrettably,

I paid for her to go have the abortion. And in God's kindness, he used that tragic, very tragic moment in my life to reveal to me just how horrible sin is.

And by his mercy and grace, I was able to repent of my sins and I gave my life to the

Lord right in that time period. So God used it for good. But it's an indelible part of my life.

It's something that you can't ever take away. Even though I know the forgiveness of God, there is always this deep regret that it took that type of behavior on my part to lead me to Christ.

It is very humbling. Amen. Well, thank God that he did do that.

Now, going back to something that I mentioned when introducing the subject, there is a unique severity.

Even though all sin that is not covered by the blood of Christ will send a lost person to hell, and they could be, in our minds, very trivial sins.

They could be what have been defined as white lies, minor thefts.

You know, we could go on and on with the things that we typically will undermine their seriousness, but they're still sins that will send us to hell.

But even having said that, there is something uniquely severe, obviously, about the sin of murder.

And while ministering to people who have committed murder, both the man and the woman involved in making the decision to have an abortion, which is the murder of a child, and, of course, the men are not always involved in these decisions.

Sometimes they don't even know about the decision the mother is making. And then, of course, even on top of that, sometimes you have a young girl who is being pressured by her parents to do this because they don't want to experience the embarrassment or even just the inconvenience of raising a grandchild or something to that effect.

But don't we always have to keep in mind when we're reaching out to someone with the love of Christ, with the compassion of Christ, that this, indeed, was a very serious crime in the eyes of God?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, there's a severity of it, and typically the people who've been involved in an abortion, they know that.

Every once in a while you'll find somebody who is kind of flippant about it, but even people who were not raised in Christian homes, because of the way the

Spirit works in our hearts and just bringing conviction of sin and just our moral compass that God gives to us, most people, even non -Christians, have some sense of shame, guilt, regret, incredible amounts of just pain for what happened that they live with.

And so, yes, it is a very severe and never to be taken lightly, and it obviously needs to be preached about.

It needs to be clearly delineated what is and is not acceptable behavior in God's kingdom and for God's children.

But because of the severity of it, I think it actually plays into why it's actually not spoken about much in churches.

There's kind of this dichotomy of, well, if we say too much about it, we don't want to just be talking about this all the time, and yet because the people are so typically ashamed of what they've done, they don't typically volunteer to share it with anybody.

And that's part of the burden that I have, even in speaking with you here today, is there's so much silence about this in the church, and yet if we read the statistics properly, we'd be kidding ourselves to think that abortions haven't been perpetrated by a lot of Christians and a lot of people in churches, and yet if we ask ourselves, hey, when did anybody ever talk about or confess that sin, the answer is virtually never.

And I think that's part of the problem. Wow. Now, how do we know that there are many

Christians, and I'm talking about genuine, regenerate people, who have been involved in this sin, because I would think,

I guess I could be wrong, but when any kind of a survey like this might be taken, even if it's a secretive one,

I'd be surprised that there would be honesty involved in this. But tell us, how do we know that there are a considerable number of Christians who have had abortions while they are

Christians? Yeah, I've had the privilege of doing a men's post -abortion

Bible study with a gentleman here in our area. He's a well -accomplished professional person.

What happened was, he was, and this had happened years and years ago, but he had made a profession of faith in Christ, and just due to some circumstances that were going on in his life, he just flat out said, look,

I was not a very mature Christian, I didn't, I'm not sure I really understood the ramifications of what

I was doing, and I started to believe the lie that what I was doing was actually the right thing, and he was deceived, as all

Christians can be deceived. Later on, he realized with great regret and remorse what he had done, and with repentance and a godly sorrow for what he had done.

But as he and I have ministered to other men, both inside the church and outside the church, at least in our own anecdotal experience, there definitely are men in the church that were believing at the time, and there were plenty of them like me who were not

Christians, but there definitely are some that are Christians, and I believe they are genuine

Christians, but they made a tragic mistake. And what are, in your experience, the unique ways that men may grieve over this, as opposed to women, and perhaps they're very similar,

I don't know, perhaps they are very different. Yeah, if you could just give us some insight into that.

Sure, I think there are, and I appreciate the way you frame that, there are some commonalities, certainly with regards to shame, regret, pain.

Obviously for a woman, there can be the physical pain that a man wouldn't experience. But with regards to regret,

I think for men in particular, the sense that our God -given role to protect and to safeguard life and to safeguard those that God has placed around us,

I think there's a unique sense of failure that men face when they examine their hearts or come under conviction that is a pretty weighty aspect of all of this.

And I'm sure morally a woman experiences failure too, in a moral kind.

But the kind of failure that I'm talking about with a man is that deeper sense of just how God has made us as men to be those protectors.

And yet, like my situation, like a coward, I abdicated my responsibility.

And so I think a lot of times that's, for me, as I work with men in this situation, that's one of the things

I zero in on is what is their sense of failure in this? Because, you know, many people, they're going to be fearing

God for what they did. There's the shame of acknowledging what they've done to others.

Obviously, I've mentioned regret, because it's a sin you can't take back. And that's a weighty part of it.

But this aspect of not fulfilling our God -given role, I think, is a unique aspect for men that should be explored.

What would be some of the mistakes that you believe

Christians may make, they may even commonly make them, when trying to minister people in this situation, those that have murdered their children through abortion, or a child, and perhaps some things that are not necessarily mistakes, but things that are overlooked when seeking to restore a person to fellowship or to just comfort anybody who grieves over their sin, as long as we know that they are repentant.

Obviously, all of us are sinners, and many of us have committed horrible atrocities before our regeneration that we have to put into perspective as being paid for by the blood of Jesus.

We are not, as Christians, to remain with a huge load of guilt hanging over our heads and hanging off of our necks for the entirety of our lives.

If we are truly convinced that Christ has paid for these sins, and, as I said before, at the same time, we don't want to undermine the seriousness of what we or others have done either.

So, tell us about some mistakes, perhaps, that are often made and things that are overlooked when trying to reach out to this unique group of people.

Yeah, I think often, and sometimes all this weds into my comments, there's just mistakes

I've made. I think sometimes trying to get too fast in a conversation with somebody who is coming to confess and get help,

I think, for me, I misjudged how long it can take to get the whole story out.

It's sort of like when you deal with some people and they confess their sin, it might take a couple laps around the track to actually get the whole story, and I would find that in this particular sin, especially if they've been harboring it and not confessed it for years or decades,

I think a mistake can be to try to accomplish too much in one meeting and to underestimate how much can be done in ten meetings.

I think so often, if we are patient with people and we ask them good questions,

I think it just helps them to be able to trust us, to be able to talk more freely about what they're really experiencing and the obstacles that they're facing in their relationship with God and with others as a result of their sin.

So I think one mistake is going too fast with people. Probably one of the more significant mistakes is making sure that, well,

I don't want to say the double negative, a mistake that I've made is to not always give the hope of the gospel every time

I meet with the person. They need to be reminded regularly about the hope that they have in Christ because that's one of the first things that they're tempted to disregard because they're already feeling guilty, and I'd be speaking about people that are

Christians. They just struggle with the condemnation aspect of it, but how can God love me still if I've done this?

So I think being very gospel -centered is important, and that can be a big mistake if that's not there. And then things that get overlooked,

I think often, are the great friendship that can be developed and fellowship that can be experienced when we come alongside somebody who is suffering and we realize that this might take a long time, and so I think sometimes we overlook the length of time it's going to need to take to walk with somebody so that they really experience

God's healing and forgiveness completely, so that there really is a restoration in their soul for what's happened.

Now, obviously, a few things involve cookie -cutter answers, cookie -cutter responses, rehearsed scripts that we use when we minister to people.

We obviously want to try to avoid that kind of approach, but at the same time, do you have specific things, specific wording that people listening can use perhaps as a template where they obviously, just getting some basic facts underneath them, will customize and use what you're saying to approach unique people with their own unique reaction to the sin that they've committed?

What would be a good approach of things, or perhaps specific things to say in specific situations, because not all of the actions of abortion have resulted for the same reasons, obviously.

There are different reasons why people have done this. None of them are justifiable. The only time you could possibly justify a young child getting an abortion is if she's absolutely being forced to by her parents.

I don't even know the legality involved in that kind of a thing. Tell us about some examples of how, with specific wording, people can be approached with this.

I think I frame a lot of my counseling and my interaction with people based on Galatians 6, 1, and 2.

It says, Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, that includes abortion, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness.

Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

That frames a lot of the way that I come in and try to first establish, does this person know that I love them?

I'll generally start off, you were asking for some questions maybe that people could ask is, I'll start off with, tell me how much of your story you're willing to talk to right now, but you don't have to say more than you feel comfortable saying.

That might not seem like a lot, but I think letting that person know that it's okay to go at their own pace

I think is really important. I'll typically ask them after they've told me their story, and I've identified with them, and I typically share my story as well, so I know

I'm not talking down to them, but I'm talking to them as a forgiven sinner. But then

I start to look for how can I build this relationship where God's spirit can be at work?

And so I'll ask sometimes a very straightforward question like, what are they actually struggling with right now? And get kind of a picture of where does it hurt now?

And again, this might have been something that happened a year ago, it might have been the last post -abortion group that we had with men.

There was a guy that was in there that this had happened 40 years ago, and he had never confessed it to anybody.

And so sometimes, you know, I'll start off with what are they struggling with right now, and then I'll typically ask them over time what have they struggled with.

I find those to be very helpful questions to be able to just find out where they are so that I can come alongside them.

And then I'm also trying to find out where do they need just specific words from the

Lord to bring them hope and encouragement in the midst of this journey that they're on. Well, we have to go to our first break right now.

If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com

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And obviously, a subject like this may lend itself, certainly, to people wanting to remain anonymous when they ask questions or even perhaps share a part of their story because it is so painful.

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We are now back with our guest today Vince hinders Executive pastor at redeeming grace

Church in Fairfax, Virginia. We are discussing ministering to those who have aborted their babies and our email address if you have questions is

Chris Arnson at gmail .com chris ar n ze and gmail .com

as always give us your first name at least Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA We have an anonymous listener pastor Vince Who wants to know in keeping with the understanding that babies who have been aborted are indeed real babies?

Would you suggest that it is completely acceptable for parents going through the grief process of having their baby aborted?

to even give it a name and to even Pray that they will one day be reunited in glory with this child and other reasons why this may be effective in them going through the grief profit process in Recognition of the fact that this was indeed their child

Yeah, well, it's first of all, it's a great question. It's a great observation. I Had not been familiar with that until probably about four years ago

When one of the gentlemen that I was leading a group with at the very last session that we did

We talked with each of the men about had they ever taken a step back to actually

Give the child a name Had they ever done that and I went through the process with the group as an attendee in the group as well not just a facilitator and leader of it and for me personally, it was very meaningful because I Think in the way that my situation had come down.

I Was so ashamed of what I had done. I Did receive

God's forgiveness for it But I don't think I lingered and really thought about the child as an actual human in that sense.

And so Giving the child a name was very meaningful to me. I was able to pray for that child by name and So yes,

I think that can be a very very healing and and helpful Circumstance to go through a process to go through for parents

Now just out of a Theological a biblical question. I don't know if the

Bible is this clear on this question and I actually don't think it is this clear

But are we certain that we are going to meet? those whom we love and in this case

In regard to an aborted child somebody that we never met but but love as a child now that it is recognized

The wickedness that that had been done against the child Are we guaranteed that we will meet?

those That we desire meeting in glory I don't think that the scriptures are very clear about that, but I know that people very often find comfort in the notion of Me I know that for instance,

I am very much looking forward When I am in glory to seeing my late wife to seeing my mother to seeing others that I Know are there waiting for me?

No, I know that they are there experiencing indescribable joy with Christ for eternity and I have that hope and expectation to see them, but I don't know if that is a guarantee that even if I And I believe

I will be in heaven even if I am there, I don't know if in the

Considering the situation that there will be billions there An uncountable number of people there.

I don't know if I will see these specific people, but what do you have to say about that? Yeah, I think that does get into the deeper theological end of the pool and I I would agree with you there aren't any explicit

Texts that would actually say you're guaranteed that you'll see your unborn child, but I think

Theologically some theologians would go back to the situation with David and Bathsheba and the child that that died and That aspect of being able to see that child

So I think this is one of those categories in Scripture where God hasn't revealed exactly how all these things work and there's a degree of mystery in that and I think that's where Our faith actually has to really find its true source of strength in the character of God And so at some point when we don't know for certain from explicit teachings from Scripture There's an aspect of having to entrust ourselves to a good and loving

God To bring the healing that we'll need. I think it can be at times harmful for people to over promise

Not think I do think it's harmful when people over promise what Scripture doesn't actually say

Because it gives people a certain hope and while it I know it's well intended and I'm not questioning at all the people's sincerity or desire to bring care and comfort

But sometimes we over speak in situations where we try to bring comfort and we actually say beyond what the

Scriptures actually allow us To say and that's not a good practice Well, thank you anonymous listener.

And if you are a first -time questioner send me another email giving me your full name and mailing address because our first -time questioners always win a free

New American Standard Bible So obviously this information will not be disclosed on the air because you requested to be anonymous so you don't have to worry about that Thank you for the excellent question

The How how in your experience

How uniquely is this sin because Going back to what

I said earlier. It is murder and you may have very unique ways of Christians coping with this

Heinous sin that they have committed just as if they might even be on death row for murdering somebody or they may just be in prison for murdering somebody or they may have

Gotten out of the penalty for such a crime due to a technicality. Whatever the case may be but people who are

Christians Who have committed murder and this indeed is murder What would be some of the unique ways that they are?

Harboring on to grief and guilt in ways that they can legitimately Have victory over this without perhaps erasing it completely from their minds and hearts but have victory

Where it is where they are not enslaved To the the nightmare of what has happened

And this sort of goes back to your previous question about what questions I ask Because as I mentioned

I do try to make sure that the person knows that I love them I care for them I want

God's good for them but as I get to get to know them better and Continue to ask some of those questions and avoid just assuming that I know what's going on I actually spent some time talking to them about what they truly understand about the gospel

Because a lot of times I find out that there's some really faulty thinking in what they actually believed was the gospel

It was either a gospel that was proclaimed to them that was you know God is good and God is loving and he'll just forgive all your sins, you know, so that's half a gospel

You know the reality of you know The justice and the judgment of God in those types of gospel presentations is it's really unhelpful because it's not really the gospel

We have to acknowledge our sin before Holy God And so a lot of times what I found is that the breakdown of how?

People get to this situation one is if they're not a Christian, there's no fear of God And so there's not sort of a moral compass

But for those who had at least some profession of faith going into it.

It's typically we under earth that they really had some pretty faulty foundations of what they actually believed to be the gospel and So we spent some time really talking about that because once they truly get their arms around the gospel and they understand

Concepts of mercy mercy being God's goodness to those who are in misery and distress

All of a sudden that the glorious nature of the personal work of Christ This starts to become larger and larger in our conversations so that The power of the gospel starts to become real

To such a way that that person really can experience forgiveness from God Even though the magnitude of their sin is quite large.

God is larger Amen we have

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who says Would you advise that people in order to find ways of having victory of this?

Enslavement to grief that they may be experiencing over a serious sin like this that they be involved in a ministry to others

Who have committed the same sin? I have found this to be helpful in different ways in my life when

I know that I am ministering to others who have repented of sins that they have committed and even lost people who have not

Yet repented of sins that they have committed that are similar to my own Yeah, I I think

So long as a person is, you know making some some progress and understand especially with the gospel

I think it can be part of the healing process 2nd Corinthians chapter 1 says that we're to comfort those with the comfort that we've received from God and And I think that is really part of the wonderful way that God redeems

Horrible situations and I know for me personally just I've been involved in pro -life ministry for over 25 years and And I'm just greatly blessed by the privilege

It is to be able to extend grace to others that same grace that I've received from God and the same healing and the same

Care and the love from God to others I think it's a really important part of the process and something that I would recommend because Those who've been through the trauma of abortion and the guilt and the shame and and we haven't even talked about those

Specifically with regards to men who maybe their baby was aborted and they didn't know it That that's a whole different type of pain and suffering that goes on.

Why don't you? Delve into that right now. In fact, let me first quickly add for our listener

BB That I was a drunk I not only was a drunk before coming to Christ in my mid -20s, but I was a drunk even more tragically after backsliding back into it after 18 years of sobriety as a born -again believer and Became a drunk again perhaps even in a more scandalous and publicly known way and A far less expected way since of I had a profession of being a

Christian but I am haunted by that on occasion.

I always have to remember that the blood of Christ has covered this that I have repented of it but I have always made it a point to Let people know that I am aware of a wonderful Christian rehabilitation ministry for addicts in Boone, North Carolina Hebron colony ministries

And I have so far Directed at least three people to that wonderful ministry both that ministry and their sister

Organization in South Carolina for women grace home but and All of those folks who

I have referred to these ministries have successfully completed The program and are currently sober and I'm praising

God for that. So I know that it has helped me personally enormously and Just to remind our listeners because I have never stopped

Singing the praises of this wonderful ministry You can go to Hebron colony org

Hebron colony org and Pass that information on to everyone, you know

Especially if you are aware that they are either themselves struggling and battling with this addiction and this sin or if they

Have someone in their family somebody they know somebody in their church many pastors have asked me for this information but it's

Hebron colony org and Hope that that helps those listening once again, but I think that I Instead of interrupting you mid -sentence.

I'm going to go to our midway break right now and when we return you can go specifically into The tragedy the shock the horror that many men may be experiencing because they have found out after the fact that the biological mother of their children or their child has murdered the child, so We'll have you pick up right on that when we return if anybody else would like to Ask a question or even give a part of their own personal story

Whether they do so by identifying themselves or if they do it anonymously that it's fine

But remember if it's just a general question Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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We'll be right back after these messages with more of Vince hinders and our discussion on ministering to those who have aborted their babies

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Ministering to those who have aborted their babies And that email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa Only remain anonymous if you're asking about a personal and private matter

And vince you were just about to before the break Discuss an area that we have not yet delved into today

About the trauma the shock The horror that many men experience when they find out that a woman either be their girlfriend their wife

Their one -night stand. However, it it worked out where this woman became pregnant from their sexual involvement

They have found out that this woman has murdered Their children in the womb without letting them know in advance

In fact, I have a friend a personal friend In fact, I interviewed him

Once on this program, uh, and I won't mention his name because his brother is a very famous worldwide celebrity

But this individual Actually found out that his wife

Had gone to the abortion clinic to have an abortion and she had not told him that she was doing this beforehand and I don't even remember how he found out that's where she was going

And he went to the abortion clinic where she was And was arrested

Because he brought a young child with him. He brought one of their children with him

Uh, and he was arrested for endangering the safety of a minor

Can you can you imagine the irony of that? His wife is murdering

One of their children and he is arrested for endangering the safety of a minor because he brought This child to an abortion clinic and was arrested but anyway uh, tell us about that whole genre of Of ministry where you are helping men deal with the fact that their baby

Unbeknownst to them initially and without their consent Was murdered Yeah, I have not been involved in a lot of these but but enough to have at least a little bit of insight into this

I hope um You know, obviously it involves a great sin and I think coming alongside these men and You know sort of in accordance with romans, uh 12 just weeping with those who weep, um

It's devastating. Um It's for any parent that's ever lost a child that they know about it's devastating

To some degree how much more When you had no idea it was even going on, uh, or what was happening the sense of betrayal, uh, the sense of anger um

In some degrees a righteous anger at what happened but also then an anger that can become a sinful anger.

Um In those moments, these are pretty complicated situations uh

For people to go through because not only are they having to deal with issues relating to grief

And there are great programs out there like grief share that help people go through grieving the loss of a loved one but the unique sense of betrayal of secrecy of distrust

That goes along with this Requires additional care for those who are walking through these times

Because there's just so many complicating factors Added on when they realize it they didn't even know or have a chance to stop what was happening

It's a very helpless feeling Yeah, and i'm sure that there's a lot of things that involve ministry to people like that you

You obviously may have to Minister to them because they are struggling with hatred towards their spouse or whoever the biological mother of the the murdered child is

Uh, they may be even struggling with thoughts of vengeance or all kinds of things. I mean, this is

A really horrible situation that i'm sure occurs more often than we care to admit

And I think you know add in another layer and that is if The man was sinfully in a relationship with this woman sexually

Added his own sin to the complications of the matter Because then there's the guilt and shame of if I had never done this

Then I wouldn't have been in this situation anyway So there can be all kinds of guilt and condemnation that they feel personally for what happened

And then you're right. I think you're spot on with regards to the levels of anger vengeance wanting justice

All those things are very real and so walking through issues of forgiveness of How to even especially if it's a marriage situation

Coming at this from the perspective of marriage counseling The the trust that's been broken in a situation like that is significant

And takes a long time it takes a lot of healing to take place and And this is where good theology is so important because if we truly believe in a redeeming god

A god who forgives a god who loves us enough to send his son to die on a cross And we know that there's power in the gospel

Then if we can get people To apply the gospel in their situation

Whether the perpetrator of the sin or the one who needs to provide forgiveness, uh in the situation

These are are not things that we do in our own strength. It's impossible in my opinion. I watch

People go through this that are not followers and they're just so angry. They're consumed by it And really the only balm for our souls.

The only hope that we have is the gospel And that's we have to find a gracious way to to help them see and grab hold of we have

Susan margaret in dauphin county, pennsylvania Who asks? If a pastor has a daughter

Who gets an abortion? When should the pastor step down or be removed from his office because he doesn't have his household in order

Is it only if the child? Is under the roof of that pastor Or are there all circumstances when such a crime is committed?

Does the pastor need to step down? Because he is not living up to the qualifications of having his household in order

That are required by those Entering into the office of elder uh, it's obviously a very grievous situation when this occurs and so a couple thoughts on this and that is

One there's a range of opinions within bible believing christians about how to apply those qualifications for being an elder uh being a shepherd

Is it in perpetuity for the lifetime of all of their children whether they're in the home or not in the home?

There are some men that I respect that believe that I I think for me personally and i'm just giving you my opinion.

I think it's more germane to those children who are living under the pastor's roof and where he obviously has control and sway over because we know theologically that um, each of those children as they

Reach maturity and adulthood. They're responsible for their own actions and as they move out of the home

There is a degree of responsibility for that um So in terms of how a church handles that, um

You know, i'll just let me throw this out there Please be careful to make sure that you shepherd the pastor through this

Because he and his wife are going to be grieving tremendously And uh, this is a grandchild that's now gone

They're never going to be able to hold that grandchild. They're never going to be able to love that grandchild and watch it grow up And and I certainly recognize as a pastor.

There are responsibilities that we have But your pastor is a person too. He's a brother in christ and his wife is a sister in christ and Coming alongside them and their grief um should actually be

I think the church's first responsibility before All the other questions that have to get answered about well, is he qualified and should we do all that?

Uh, don't be too quick to overlook the fact that he actually needs his congregation to love him and care for him

In the same way that he's been teaching the congregation to love and care for each other So I think that's a really important part of it.

And then I think with regards to the suitability of a pastor remaining in Ministry when one of his children has sinned grievously um,

I think that should be a process that takes a little bit of time because Snap judgments as we all know can be fraught with all kinds of problems

And I think a careful evaluation of the suitability for ministry And again, i'm talking in broad terms because I don't know the specifics of the situation

But I would make sure you involve some other mature church leaders either from Within your own church or some other trusted friends in ministry in your community

To help the congregation come alongside to not only care for this pastor and his wife But also then to determine what would honor the lord and god's word and also be a blessing to the church

We also have an anonymous listener asking a very similar question the anonymous listener asks

Is the sin of abortion always a matter of church discipline if the person

Commits the sin while a member of a church especially if they are not repentant

Yeah, I think the key part is not repentant. I think yes, absolutely This is a grievous sin and it's not repented of Absolutely.

This is what would move towards church discipline After many appeals after faithful proclamation of the gospel if somebody is hard -heartedly

Uh saying that this was not a sin. They're Grievous error. It is a sin and the bible is very clear about it and to live in the

Without any acknowledgement of that or repentance of it or remorse or sorrow Over that sin would definitely lead to church discipline in my opinion

Now if the person is repentant over it they realize that because this was committed this act was committed

This crime was committed I mean crime obviously in the eyes of god because it is legal

Unfortunately in the eyes of the secular state uh, but For the for the person who has committed this act while a member of a church a professing regenerate believer of A believer in christ who is remorseful and repentant over it, however

Would this circumstance Allow the person to not be brought forward to the church

And for it not to be a public sin publicly Would it be would it be?

Biblically acceptable for the elders not to make this sin public if the person is repentant over it

Yeah, I I think if the person is repentant, it's a it's a really important because i'm not

Sure that church discipline is the type of thing that we're supposed to go and share other people's sins when they are repentant

Now if the if the situation became notorious In terms of a lot of people in the community knowing about it

Then certainly I think uh, the church would be wise so we're in the wisdom category to to find a venue to be able to explain what happened and To give the person an opportunity to publicly confess, uh their sin

And to receive forgiveness from the community. I I think there can be situations where that would be advisable but um

Like with many sins, I I think is the purpose of church discipline is ultimately to restore the person to right fellowship

Through repentance and faith and so if the person is already repenting and having faith

I'm, not sure uh what the benefit is to the church, uh is To then just publicly proclaim somebody else's sin

I'd have to know probably more detail. So that that's a sort of a broad brush answer And i'm assuming

You would agree that there are certain sins That even if the person is repentant

If they are committed by a leader in the church They may need to be brought to the public, uh, whereas like for instance

Uh, I don't know necessarily If someone who commits adultery And has confessed this during a private counseling session uh with their elders

That that sin would need to be made public But if it was an elder that did this I think it would be because it all

Falls as a part of the qualifications issue Of being an elder. I mean perhaps you disagree.

I don't know No, I I would agree with that. Um, I think Uh, it's a privilege to be able to serve as a shepherd in god's church and as our under shepherds and we need to be above reproach and If we have brought reproach, uh

In the way that we've conducted our lives based on the qualifications, but just even based on what it means to be a follower of christ in such a way that um, uh yeah,

I I think it is important and I think the church needs to know that because It's really important for the church to be able to trust its leaders.

And if things are hidden and kept secret about the personal lives of the of the pastors that are

And i'm talking about gross sins like adultery and things like that i'm talking about, uh

Sins that don't have to be uh, or aren't as notorious. But yes anything significant like that.

I think There is a degree where the church would need to be involved especially the pastor himself as the one that was committing the sin

We have another anonymous listener who has a question sure Most christians that I know

Will treat their friends and neighbors and loved ones who are not christians

Who are pro -abortion? And may have even had abortions In a different light than people that are murderers, even though technically these people are murderers

Why is that and should we be treating our neighbor? Who is someone who is perhaps even an activist for the murder of unborn children should we be treating them just like Our neighbor who is of a different religion or our neighbor who has different sins in their lives that don't reach the level of scandalous and horrific sins like murder

Obviously we are not to shun all of our Friends family and loved ones who are sinners because then we'd be shunning everybody

But at the same time there is a unique level of depravity And satanic activity when it comes to murder

And the murder of an unborn child is murder just as if the child was five six seven eight or 20 years old

Yeah, it's a it's a very uh, it's an important question in terms of how How do we

Engage people who are not regenerate? And when they hold to unbiblical and ungodly

Perspectives about life about the world that we live in about the value and sanctity of human life

Uh, it is a dilemma living in this fallen world and how we treat those people who try to win them to christ um

I think there is certainly an aspect where we're always going to want to be bold Uh in being able to proclaim truth

And yet at the same time, uh, how do we proclaim that in a way that Enables them to actually hear the message of the gospel um i'm not uh i'm not

Saying that I know all the answers on this for sure because this is this is very complicated and i've got

Uh members of my extended family who are not christians and who think very differently than I do on these things

And so trying to balance uh being able to be a truth teller And yet at the same time trying to persuade them to engage the gospel to see a different perspective

Uh, I am trying to stay in the conversation with them And at the same time, I know that sometimes I just have to be bold and state what

I believe to be true I guess one thing that we i'm, sorry. You said it sounded like you were just about to say something

Oh, I was just going to say I I think this is why it really is dependent upon us to be fervent in prayer uh for those that we're reaching out to we need the holy spirit to lead us and guide us because Every situation that we face is somewhat nuanced and we really do need to do these things in obedience to god's commands

As he speaks to us through his word and by his spirit and I want to be careful the way

I word this because I don't want to Give anyone the false impression that i'm trying to Soften the seriousness the severity of and wickedness of murdering the unborn

But i'm thinking this through here out loud Is there a consideration when we are dealing with our neighbors um

We obviously would never Uh invite over for a barbecue

Uh a person that is a known Murderer of an adult for instance who is unrepentant uh

Who who may be uh hiding from police uh and on and on somebody who is who is a universally

Accepted murderer or somebody that is universally viewed as a murderer is a better way of phrasing it

We would never invite somebody like that over a home for a barbecue but the way

The difference with abortion even though it is murder Should we consider the fact that the secular authorities and the secular medical realm

Has done an Ingenious job and of course a satanically ingenious job of convincing

People that this is not murder Uh, I mean, is that one way that gives us a a permission a liberty to invite if you want to minister

To somebody if you want to evangelize someone give the gospel to somebody who is a neighbor and you happen to know this woman is a feminist and she goes to Pro -abortion rallies and she may even have run and been elected to office.

Whatever the case may be And she's pro -abortion Would you would it be legitimate to Have her in your home for dinner have her over your backyard for a barbecue

Reach out to her as a friendly neighbor Knowing that this may be a part of the reality of their of their sin

Is that they have been duped at in one degree to another? uh of the acceptability of this

Yeah, and again i'll just tell you my perspective on this but I when I encounter people like that And there are plenty of them around here in northern.

Virginia um, you know, it really reminds me of romans chapter one where it says That look internally.

I know that they they should know that there is a god, but they don't honor god Or give thanks to him because they become futile in their thinking and fool and their foolish hearts are darkened and I think the enemy of this world satan has

Put the blinders on a lot of people's eyes people who are normally rational reasonable people when

I talk to them about the concept of abortion, they're just like Like they cannot see it.

And so what I have to ask myself is If the only way that they're ever going to become a christian is if somebody will share the gospel with them

Then I have to ask myself lord. How are you going to enable me to share the gospel with them?

And so if that means I have to befriend them And come alongside them and be patient with them

So that I can share the gospel Um, I think that's a really important aspect of this because if we won't share the gospel with them if we won't interact with them

Then who's going to reach all these people that have been duped by satan? And yet I think that is actually what we've been called to do

Is to reach out to those people who have been blinded by the prince of this world. In fact, I was just Uh, I just remembered

Somebody who i've interviewed several times rosaria butterfield Before her conversion to christ she was

Well known in her community of upstate new york as being a feminist and a active lesbian and a pro -abortionist and every other thing that immediately comes to mind when we think of of those

Uh strongly on the left side of things And she came to christ

Because a presbyterian pastor and his wife And continually showed compassion and love to her and invited her over their home for dinner

And uh, she eventually uh their their love for her

Crushed her heart and the lord used that to bring her to christ and she is a very zealous christian, uh author and Apologist and just just a wonderful sister in christ who uh openly uh opposes

The sins of homosexuality and every other sin that is championed by the left

And I think her story is a wonderful illustration of what i'm trying to communicate, uh, and I would

I would agree with that pastor and his wife that they They saw her lostness. They saw her in her blindness to sin and god's creation and god's order

And they viewed that as an opportunity for them to then be the love of christ In terms of what they shared in them

My confidence would be that they didn't have to compromise in their conversations with her about what they believed

By saying oh, it's okay what you believe because I think that's a mistake too I think we have to be clear about what we do believe

But I think how we bring those things up in the way that we bring them up in ways that are clear truthful and honest

Doesn't mean that we can't do them with love in our eyes and in our hearts and with hospitality So that we can engage them and enable a friendship to develop so that we can share the gospel with them

Amen and we're going to our final break right now if you have a question send it in As quickly as possible because we're rapidly running out of time

That's chris arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name as always at least

Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa if you're asking a general question

But if it is a personal and private matter feel free to remain anonymous in fact, we would compel you to remain anonymous if it regards a personal friend a a pastor or something that None of us have any business exposing publicly

In regard to such a personal thing But that's chris arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen at gmail .com

don't go away we'll be right back with vince henders after these messages I'm james white of alpha and omega ministries

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Pastor vince henders, please If you could summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about this very important subject today

Yeah, thank you chris, um, I think for me with regards to how to serve and care for people in the context of the church

I think it's really important that we Position our hearts to restore people in a spirit of gentleness.

It's a grievous sin. It's a terrible sin Of abortion, but there's a lot that's often going on in people's lives

That we can come alongside and help make sure that the gospel is what's applied for the solution and so just being redemptive communities being

Unafraid to be able to talk about the hard sins and the difficult sins and the sins that are usually not talked about But creating churches where it's a safe harbor for people to be able to talk about things like this

So that they can receive the forgiveness through the gospel that they so desperately need Well, I want to make sure uh that uh

Our listeners have your contact information and I think we could even fit a couple more listener questions in uh, but uh, first of all

Just so we don't run out of time without mentioning this The redeeming grace church website is rgcfairfax .org

Rgc which stands for redeeming grace church fairfax for fairfax, virginia F -a -i -r -f -a -x .org

Do you have any other contact information that you care to share that you want to make sure our listeners have? Sure, if anybody ever has a question they can contact me at v as in vince hinders h -i -n -d -e -r -s at rgcfairfax .org

Great well, uh, we do have another anonymous listener who wants to know There are those that grieve even more deeply and battle

Depression that enslaves them after committing such a horrible act as murdering an unborn child because they have been

Improperly taught theologically and believe that you can lose your salvation Can you please minister right now by giving some words of counsel to those who are ministering to these people?

And we are trying to convey to them the truth That exists in the perseverance and preservation of the saints

Yeah, this is where good theology really matters and bad theology really hurts people when people

Have a man -centered view of the gospel and our response to it It really turns things on its head, especially when you're in the deep end of the pool and situations like this

So my advice and counsel would be uh, make sure that the doctrines of grace are fully understood

If you need help in counseling somebody or helping them through this difficult time Find a good biblical counselor contact the christian counseling and education foundation up in philadelphia

They typically have contacts with good counselors in people's areas But get a trained reformed

Biblical counselor to come alongside you to help you unravel these issues with people because Once they've applied bad theology to their circumstance, it's a it's difficult to unravel it amen

And uh, let's see here. We have arnie in perry county pennsylvania who wants to know

Do you? Do you know of abortionists? I'm talking about the actual doctors who are murdering these children physically

Who have come to christ and repented of their actions publicly? Uh, I don't personally know any i'm sure there are some but but I don't personally know any

Yes, I know of uh Bernard nathanson is a very famous uh christian,

I believe from a jewish background who uh

Was very much involved in murdering children in the womb Uh, and he uh,

I mean and I say this I hope that our listeners understand why i'm saying this he uh

Although I am i'm rejoiced that he is pro -life And very militantly pro -life and very active in his stance for pro -life and his exposing of the evils and horrors

Of what abortion is i'm so delighted and rejoicing that but he is roman catholic from what

I understand so uh, I have to be very quick to acknowledge publicly that I believe that the roman catholic church, even though there are many people who would identify themselves as roman catholics who are

Truly brothers and sisters in christ because they believe in the true gospel in spite of the false gospel taught by roman catholicism

And at the same time I have to make it clear that the official dogma of rome when it comes to the gospel Is false

And there is no hope of salvation in the dogmatic teachings of salvation

As lined out in the council of trent and other places dogmatically in the church of rome uh, but uh, it is at least encouraging to know that there are physicians like Dr.

Nathanson who have abandoned Murder because that's obviously a very serious crime.

Well, once again, I want to Publicly, uh,

I want to remind our listeners About the website for redeeming grace church in fairfax, virginia where our guest is the pastor rgc

Fairfax .org rgc fairfax .org. Thank you so much for being such an excellent guest again I want to thank everybody who listens and I want