Is There Ever a Reason To Deprive Your Spouse Their Conjugal Rights

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00:03

And with conjugal rights, in my mind, it seems like a similar discussion, you know, where if you're saying, hey,

00:11

I don't wanna give my spouse their conjugal rights, well, then the question is just, well, why did you marry them?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your host, Harrison Kerrig, and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, is there ever a good reason to deny your spouse their conjugal rights?

02:06

Now, Tim, what Bible verse do you have to open up the episode for us with as we discuss this topic? Yeah, 1

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Corinthians 7, three through five says, the husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.

02:20

For the wife does not have authority over her body, but the husband does. Likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

02:27

Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time that you may devote yourself to prayer, but then come together quickly so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self -control.

02:38

Okay, so the Bible verse seems pretty straightforward, but then I think if you were to ask, if you were to just poll a bunch of people, say that you had the ability to do that online somehow, you might not get as straightforward an answer as Paul is giving here, right?

02:59

Is that a fair assumption to make? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of funny, because when you, and I've asked this kind of question at a variety of times, particularly online, it was just, it was people in general, with people that I've interacted with, and most people lead with the exceptions, like in their mind, like exceptions to this rule, so.

03:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but what about the time when your spouse is abducted by terrorists, then are you, something crazy like that, yeah.

03:28

Yeah, sometimes it's like the most extreme kind of hypothetical as possible, but then what's interesting about it is it really is at a point where they're leading with these exceptions as if it would be absolutely stupid just to say no.

03:44

Does that make sense? Like in. What do you mean? I mean, it's not as if, like the standard impulse for most

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Christians to, even like solid, solid Christians, if you were to say, you know, is there ever a time to deny your spouse their conjugal rights, they would say yes.

04:00

You know, even though Paul is saying don't deprive one another, like very directly, and then he gives like a exception that's not an exception, but I mean, we can get into that in a minute, but despite the way, like how strongly

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Paul words it, what I found is most people are actually objecting to it being worded the way

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Paul words it, and most of the time, they're objecting to it pretty strongly, meaning, like I asked this question recently online, and people looked at me and were like, hey, you're an idiot, you're stupid.

04:34

Of course, there's reasons to deprive your spouse, you know, are you a moron or something like that?

04:40

And it just makes you think, are you guys looking at what's being said here?

04:48

Do you understand the meaning of words? Like what's going on here? You know, so it's one of those things where not only would most people, like with most people who generally agree with this concept of conjugal rights,

05:02

I mean, even them, I would say most of them wouldn't say that there's never a situation to deny your spouse their conjugal rights.

05:09

So most people are gonna argue that obviously, there is a case to deny your spouse their conjugal rights unless you're just an idiot or something like that.

05:19

So what are some of the reasons given that make it so obvious that there are situations where you should deny your spouse their rights?

05:26

Are you saying like, what are the reasons that people give? Yeah, what are the reasons they bring up? Yeah, so like you dummy, you idiot, like don't you know, like women, like here's some situations, like women, a woman who just gives birth should deny her spouse.

05:41

Yeah, deny her spouse his conjugal rights. Or like what if she has cancer, you know?

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Or what if he's beating her, you know? Or what if he cheats on her, you know? Or what if she has some kind of disease?

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Or like, what if she's sick, you know? Dummy, like obviously, there's reasons to deprive your spouse their conjugal rights.

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So they'll get the imperious tone and they'll go for it. Do people ever bring up, you know, like, hey, what if they're just not in the mood?

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See, most, I mean, I think most, like most Christians, like quote unquote, professing

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Christians would go that route. But I'm talking about even like solid minded Christians aren't, they may not necessarily go that.

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So even the ones who would say like, hey, that's a bad reason to deny conjugal rights.

06:29

They might still say some of the other ones that you've brought up. That's what you're saying. Yeah, are good reasons to deny. But then, you know,

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I wanna qualify that when I've, the issue is, if you were to ask, is there any good reason to deny your spouse their conjugal rights,

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I'm just gonna say no. Like there's no good reason, period, like the end. But then the problem is if I say that, no one knows what

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I'm saying yet. Like meaning I've just said something that's like obviously true.

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Like what I just said was right. What I said was exactly what Paul says. But then

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I'm not allowed to say it. And if I do say it, then people think I've said something I didn't say, when all

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I said was what Paul said. Does that make sense? Yeah, so I guess just flesh out a little more what you mean by that.

07:16

Right, so like the issue here is all this, this question hinges on what the word defraud or deprive means, okay?

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So like that's what, if you say, is there ever a good reason to deprive your spouse their conjugal rights, the biblical answer is no.

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And like the biblical answer is no, not even with prayer, not even for the purpose of prayer. So like the answer is no, like there's not, okay?

07:40

But then that all hinges on what the word deprive means, okay? And so most people don't understand what deprive means.

07:48

So they think like deprive means like for any reason go without having sex or something, but that's not what the word means, right?

07:55

So the word deprive, like in the Greek here, right? So you look up this definition, it's to cause another to suffer loss by taking away through illicit means, to rob, to steal, to despoil or to defraud, right?

08:10

So you should never do that. You should never cause your spouse to suffer loss by taking away through illicit means, right?

08:20

You should never rob them. You should never steal from them. You should never despoil them. You should never defraud them.

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That's what that word means, okay? So there's not a situation like, so what, so the issue is what's happening is like whatever these exceptions in people's mind are, they're not exceptions to defraud.

08:38

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Because like defraud. Yeah, basically saying like, hey, for the purpose of prayer, that's not a fraudulent thing to do.

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That's not a deceitful thing to do. You're coming together, you're forming an agreement, and then you're fulfilling that agreement and then quickly returning to each other.

09:02

Right, right. So Paul lists that as like a possible exception, like the only possible exception, but then he does so in a way that is just somewhat, like it's not even precise.

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You get what I'm saying? So he says, he says in verse five, do not deprive one another. Like that's a very strong statement.

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And then he only gives one qualification to it. He says, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time for the purpose of prayer.

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But then the issue is once it's except, like once it becomes a situation where you're both mutually agreeing to abstain, right, you're no longer in the realm of defrauding, right?

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So what's actually happening is he's making a very strong statement, like don't ever defraud each other, right? Like you don't defraud each other.

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You don't cause each other to suffer loss by illicit means, you don't rob, steal, defraud, whatever else.

09:56

Perhaps, and this is the way his word is, like perhaps the only situation where you could possibly do something is when you both agree to it together, right?

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For the purpose of prayer, and just for a very limited time, that would be like if you both agree, but then like the issue is once you both agree, it's no longer defrauding anyways.

10:16

Does that make sense? Yeah, I think the only thing that has me still a little hung up on it is just the fact that he uses the word except, which seems like a strange, it makes the verse still sound like that is somehow a defrauding, even though I don't know that Paul would call it a defrauding.

10:42

Does that make sense? Does that make sense? Yeah, but you think about it this way, like if Paul were to say don't ever steal from each other, right, except perhaps, except perhaps if you both agree that like they willingly want to give you money that doesn't belong to you, right?

11:01

In which case then, you know, that's the only situation where you could take something that doesn't belong from you.

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Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And so that's what defraud means, like defraud means steal, right? So if you think about it like that, you know, don't ever steal from your husband, right?

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Unless he agrees for a limited time, he doesn't need the money and he's just gonna give it to you, in which case you can take it, you know, but you should never take it from him like in an unwilling way.

11:26

So in that case, it's just, that's kind of what this word means basically. Right. And it seems like essentially this verse is really kind of getting at like the selfish nature that we have, right?

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Like, so Paul is saying, hey, don't defraud each other, give what's owed to one another, you know, to your spouse.

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And then the same is expected from your spouse, that your spouse will give to you what's owed to you.

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And it should never, you know, there should never be any sort of like selfish, I'm not going to give you what

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I promised you, right? Right, so the whole passage hinges on the idea that there are these things called conjugal rights, okay?

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So the husband should give to his wife or conjugal rights and likewise, the wife's your husband. So like the idea is these conjugal rights exist and then what each person is told in this arrangement is you don't defraud from them.

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And what that means is you don't cause them to suffer loss by taking away through illicit means you don't steal from them, right?

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So that's the issue. So these rights exist, like they're there, like they're part of the marriage covenant, that's what they are, right?

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So you're not allowed to like, you're not allowed to just like cut a person off, like you're not allowed to do that because like you're defrauding them, you're stealing from them, like you're not, that's not permitted, right?

12:43

That's not what marriage is, marriage is a one flesh relationship. So for this reason, man shall leave his father and mother in Genesis 2, 24, hold fast to his wife, two shall become one flesh, that's what marriage is, one flesh relationship that grants both parties conjugal rights, so it goes both ways.

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And if you're to withhold that from them, like you're stealing from them, you're robbing them, that's the concept, right?

13:06

So then the issue is like, there's never a good case to do that. Like there's never a good situation where you do that.

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You may, perhaps like in his language, you may perhaps agree together to temporarily abstain for the purpose of prayer, but there's not, you can't, stealing's wrong, okay?

13:27

Stealing's bad, don't do that, right? Yeah, yeah, and I guess if the other person's willing to give it to you, meaning like if we're using the stealing analogy, right?

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If someone's willing to give you something and you take it, you're not stealing.

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Right, right, so then that's how the one exception he grants works. So, but then what people have done is they've just gotten so accustomed to adding a bunch of different exceptions to this that what they end up doing is they end up coming up with like a nonsense scenario, right?

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So they're making a hash of this word deprive here, right? Defraud here, like you, like, but the issue is like, this isn't the way to handle the tough cases, if that makes sense.

14:12

So when I say that, when I say, hey, there's no good reason to ever defraud someone, what

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I didn't say that like a woman who just gave birth to a child is morally, like, you know, yesterday, is morally in sin for not being able to have sex with her husband temporarily.

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Like, I didn't say that, but that may be what they hear, but then that's not what I said. So, but then, so the issue is like there's other ways to deal with these difficult, you know, kind of exceptions in people's minds, but then the issue is they're not actually exceptions, they're just different things.

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Does that make sense? Yeah, but explain a little more what you mean by they're just different things.

14:57

Okay, all right, if a wife is in a coma, let's go with like the easiest analogy possible. A wife is in a coma. Is it possible for her to defraud her husband in that moment?

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No, no, she's unavailable. So, but you see what

15:17

I mean? So, like people would put that forward as an exception to what Paul is saying, but do you see how it's totally irrelevant to what's false, as Paul is saying?

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Like, it has nothing to do with what he's talking about. Like, she can't defraud him because she's not there.

15:32

She's not like withholding. She's not making a conscious decision. Making a decision to cause him to suffer loss through illicit means, do you see what

15:41

I'm saying? Like, that's not what happened. What happens is she's out, you know?

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She's out. She's gone, man, you know? So, I mean, like she. Well, hopefully she's not like gone, gone, you know?

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I mean, yeah, but you get what I'm saying. Like, there's no defrauding happening there, you know? So, like she's not withholding anything that's due to him.

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She's physically incapacitated. She's unable to give to him. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. So, that's not an exception.

16:08

Like, that's the point. So, when Paul says what he says in the way that he's saying it, like people are criticizing him for not talking about comas or something like that.

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Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, if I don't talk about a coma in that situation, what about a coma?

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Then people think, well, you're just like an idiot or something and you didn't. Like, come on, you know? You're not allowed to say it like that.

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It's like, well, Paul didn't say it like that. And the issue is not that Paul is unaware of the possibility of a coma.

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The issue is that that's not defrauding. Do you see? Right. Because she's not withholding something that's in her power to give.

16:44

She has no power to give it. Well, I think it says something that Paul just doesn't feel the need to really qualify it a whole lot.

16:54

Right. Right? And I think, I'm sure you're gonna talk about this some more, what

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I'm about to say, but I think that does speak to, there's a lot of times where you read things in the

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Bible and you think to yourself, man, if someone were to say this today, they would need to endlessly qualify this.

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With this scenario and with that scenario and all of these different things. But then so often throughout the

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Bible, you just read these almost like one -liners a lot of times where it's just, it's straightforward.

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It's not difficult to understand at all. Unless you just really hate what's being said, right?

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And you wanna twist it to mean something that it doesn't mean. And this seems like one of those passages where Paul's being really straightforward.

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He's giving a command for husbands and wives not to deprive one another, right?

17:55

And he's not qualifying it endlessly. He's not talking about the coma. He's not talking about the woman who just gave birth.

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He's not talking about when you're sick or whatever else. And we'll talk about some of those things, but he just, for some reason, he doesn't feel the need to qualify any of those things.

18:14

And you're right. It's not like he's unaware that those are possibilities, right? It's not like people started getting sick 50 years ago, right?

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But he's not talking about, he doesn't mention that at all. And so, in my mind, that does kind of speak to the kind of society we're in right now.

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Like, hey, whatever your conclusion is, I don't know how you can read a verse like this and then hear people talk about the topic and conclude that we are faithfully obeying this verse.

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As the universal church, like all Christians everywhere generally,

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I don't know how you can come away with that conclusion. Well, think about it this way. Let's return, because this is a word that means steal, okay?

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Okay. So, think about it that way. Now, let's just move out of this realm and talk about stealing. What does

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God say? Thou shalt not steal. Period. Period. But think about that.

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There's no need. The issue is related to the concept of stealing. There's no need to qualify it.

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Because there's no good situation to steal. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, there's never a good reason.

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So, you can come up with a good reason in your mind to steal, but then the issue is stealing by definition is wrong.

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There's no, like even if, you know, like even the most Robin Hood kind of scenario or whatever else, like there's, you know, maybe there's some sort of concept of taking back what belongs to you, but then if you're gonna get into that kind of realm, you're no longer talking about stealing.

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So, like the moral argument you're making at that point is it belongs to me and it was stolen and I'm just taking it back, right?

20:10

Does that make sense? Yeah. So, the issue is the only way you can make this argument is to say, hey, it's not stealing.

20:17

Do you see what I mean? Yeah. Now, like are there situations where it's understandable for a thief to steal?

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Well, the Bible even mentions those in Proverbs, like you don't despise a thief who's starving to death or something like that, but that doesn't mean it's morally right.

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You just may understand as a human being that there are some situations which are harder than others and, you know, hope that you'd never get into that kind of situation.

20:43

Yeah, like surely there's a difference between stealing a loaf of bread and stealing a PS5, right?

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Sure, sure. Yeah, or all the Gucci bags at the store or whatever for reparations.

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So, but then the issue is like if you're dealing with the word steal, steal by definition is wrong.

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There's never a good case to steal. That's what we're talking about, right? So, then like the issue is what's happening with this discussion is people really, they don't believe that conjugal rights are rights.

21:12

That's the point. Yeah, yeah. So, if a conjugal right is a right and to defraud someone is stealing, right?

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To deprive, cause someone to suffer loss through illicit means, to rob, to steal, to despoil, to defraud, if that's what you're talking about, there's never a good situation to do that.

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There's no exceptions to that. That's wrong, you know, period. The end is wrong. It's wrong to steal. And so like that's the very point in which the dispute is happening in our society.

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We don't believe these are rights. Like, and so we believe that these are like, these are privileges that you have to continually earn, you know, in the course of your marriage.

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Like meaning, you know, like if you're a husband, you have to, you know, keep your wife happy, you know, give her as much like quality time as she wants and everything else, like fulfill all of her relational needs.

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And you have to do that in order to earn this privilege again, right? So, your marriage vows didn't do it.

22:07

Now, you know, I could say something like that and people, what they instantaneously hear, and it's like crazy they hear this, they think

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I'm saying that a guy, like a guy, like it's honorable just to like ignore your wife and then expect her to sleep with you or something like that.

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That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying, I didn't say that at all. I'm saying that, I'm saying that like the issue is these are rights and what are the entailments of rights?

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Do you see what I mean? So you should never take away someone's right. You never, you're never, you don't have the moral high ground by depriving someone of their rights ever.

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Like you never occupy, no matter how understandable it is. And so what you have is you have like a situation where you have this command that people are treating as if it's optional instead of as a command, right?

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So they're treating it as, and then like the issue is if you say, hey, you know, let's say that like a husband was rude to his wife earlier in the day and then he wants to sleep with her at night or whatever.

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And like, is she allowed to say no? It's like, well, no, biblically she's not allowed to say no, like that's not the way it works, right?

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So like, she's not allowed to say no, but that doesn't mean that he's a good guy for not living with her in an understanding way either, right?

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So both things can be true at the same time. You can have a guy who's just being a pig and you can have a woman who's being defiant.

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Do you see what I'm saying? Like both of those things can exist at once. And what people wanna do is they wanna make obedience to this one contingent upon the other person obeying first, but then that's not really how it works.

23:48

Like that's not, like the only, the way relationships work is that both people have to commit to obeying

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God no matter what the other person does. And that extends to this area too. But like, so you're never like, you know, if you get mad at your wife and you don't talk to her for three days, there's never a good reason to do that.

24:07

It doesn't matter what she did. You see what I'm saying? Like, yeah. Yeah, in my mind, it seems a lot like the whole, you know, a lot of people will bring up in the abortion, baby murder debate, they'll bring up this idea of like, hey, just because I'm sleeping around doesn't mean

24:27

I wanna get pregnant. And it's like, well, then why are you sleeping around? I mean, that's the natural outcome of having sex is you will get pregnant.

24:39

That's what happens. And sure, there's ways to try and stave it off, but that's the natural process.

24:47

So why did you even agree to, you know, performing that action to begin with?

24:53

And with conjugal rights, in my mind, it seems like a similar discussion, you know, where if you're saying, hey,

25:01

I don't wanna give my spouse their conjugal rights, well, then the question is just, well, why did you marry them if you don't wanna do it?

25:10

Now, to your point, what you're saying, sure, there's absolutely bad husbands out there, there's absolutely bad wives out there, but then that's like a separate discussion, right?

25:26

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's like, all right, so just as a husband has a responsibility to provide for his wife, right?

25:32

So you think about it this way. Is there ever a good reason for a husband just to quit his job and not go to work anymore?

25:41

No, the Bible would call him worse than an unbeliever. But what if she was mean to him? Still worse than an unbeliever.

25:49

Right, what if she deprives him of his conjugal rights? You see what I'm saying?

25:55

Like, there's not like, that's not, like, no matter how she sins against you, you throwing your hands up in the air and say, hey,

26:04

I'm not gonna do, fulfill my responsibilities, there's never justified. I don't care if she's like, mean to you all day long,

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I don't care if she's a contentious woman, if she's like one of those ladies that it's better to live on the corner of a rooftop, if you decide to just stop going to work to provide for her, the

26:18

Bible says you're worse than an unbeliever, because you're not fulfilling your vows at that point.

26:25

And so, like, the issue is we know this as it relates to men, but we don't typically know this in the opposite direction.

26:31

You see what I mean? Like, we know related to anything that the Bible calls a man to do, we're gonna absolutely hold him to do that no matter what she does, right?

26:41

But then in the other area, we just, we don't have the same kind of rigor. But then the issue is, that's just the way it works on both sides.

26:48

And even going so far as to say, hey, whatever the wife does that might be wrong in the relationship is probably the husband's fault in some way.

27:00

Sure, sure. So, I mean, I just, whatever you do, when you have a command, you have a command, you have to treat it like a command, that's the point, you know?

27:08

So, the issue here is, yeah, if you were to ask me, is there ever a situation where you deprive your spouse of their congenital rights?

27:14

No, I'm just saying no. You would never steal, you'll never steal. So, what about, just going to quickly go into some of these individual excuses that people might give.

27:28

And maybe we can try and define the line a little more clearly for people who might still feel confused on this.

27:36

But earlier you talked about, hey, what if your wife is in a coma? What if your husband's in a coma?

27:42

Are they denying you your congenital rights? No, right?

27:48

Because they're incapable of fulfilling that promise right now.

27:55

So, are there, I know people give other reasons why, like, hey, what if I'm sick, you know?

28:03

Is sickness in your mind a, hey, you are incapable of fulfilling your congenital rights?

28:10

I mean, I think a lot of the things, the situations people will bring up, I would put in that category of being incapable, if that makes sense.

28:19

Being incapable? Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, like, obviously in the Bible you have, you have sick people who are laying beside pools, and the

28:27

Bible describes them as being unable to get up and walk and move, right? So, that kind of person, like, the issue is like, there is a category in the

28:35

Bible of a person who is a cripple, right? And so, like, there's categories for sick people, like, people who have debilitating illnesses.

28:43

Like, they're, and like, the issue is, you don't look at those people and you say, hey, you're worse than an unbeliever because you're not working to provide for your family.

28:53

It's like, he's bedridden. Right. Dude has no legs and no arms. Because.

28:59

Ha, ha, ha, golly. Because the Muslim tribe came in and chopped him off because he was a

29:05

Christian or something like that, right? So, I'm not making light of that, if there's anyone who doesn't have any arms or legs who's listening to this.

29:11

I'm just trying to say that, like, there's obviously, like, the Bible obviously has a category for suffering debilitating illness.

29:19

And like, with that kind of situation, the Bible would use language to say, hey, they're unable to do things.

29:26

And so, if you're unable to do something, you're unable to do something, that's just the way it works. Do you see what

29:31

I'm saying? Yeah. Now, I mean, there's obviously sickness and there's sickness. So, if you say, hey, like, is sickness a good reason to deprive your spouse?

29:38

I'm gonna say, no, it's not a, like, sickness is not a good reason to deprive your spouse. Like, but, like, sickness may fall into this category of being, like, physically incapacitated, right?

29:51

Like, physically unable to perform normal obligations. So, if you're physically unable to perform normal obligations, like, the issue is you're not depriving in that moment.

30:00

Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, you're just too weak. You're too weak to move.

30:07

You see, like, we could do this thing that you wanna do, but I may throw up on you, you know, like, you know, like.

30:16

So, is there a difference between that and, I mean, there's different kinds of sicknesses, right?

30:23

So, there's, like, there's the sickness, like, you're talking about, you know, and then there's the sickness that's.

30:30

Like, I have a headache and I'm cranky and I'm in a bad mood, yeah. Yeah, like, I'm, you know, I'm cramping or.

30:37

I don't feel good. Right, yeah, like, I'm, you know, I'm nauseous, but I'm not, like, throwing up nauseous.

30:43

I'm just, I mean, there's tons of stuff like that that we all feel all the time.

30:49

So, is that in the same category as, like, hey, I've had my, you know, arms and legs chopped off, even though that's not a sickness, obviously, but.

30:57

So, I'm not, when I say that sickness falls into that category, I want that category to be a strong category.

31:05

You see what I'm saying? There is a category in the Bible of someone who's physically unable to do something, and so use your brain and figure out what that is, right?

31:13

So, I mean, typically, like, we know, like, we know this in other realms. So, like, if you were to, you know, if you were to call in sick at work, so just take it out of this realm, right, completely.

31:27

What does your employer expect? A doctor's excuse, right?

31:33

Right. If you go to school, you call in sick, a doctor's excuse. So, I mean, we have a category for this kind of thing to where, you know, it can get fuzzy at a certain point, but we all know what this category is, like, you're sick.

31:47

You see what I'm saying? And so, there's obviously sickness, and there's, like, I don't feel good, you know? Like, I haven't felt good, like, for the past 20 years, you know, because I make poor life choices, right?

31:59

Because I make poor life choices, I never move and, you know, everything else. So, like, there's obviously, like, that kind, like, psychosomatic,

32:07

I'm suffering from fibromyalgia, sickness, there's that kind of thing, and then there's, like, a real sickness.

32:13

And so, I would say that the real sickness, whatever that means, like, whatever that real sickness means, I would say that falls into the category of physically incapacitated.

32:21

But I mean, like, the issue is, yeah, obviously, like, people work that category for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of areas, you know?

32:29

There is a type of person who is constantly calling in to work sick, and there's really nothing wrong with them. They stayed up too late playing video games and that kind of thing, and they're saying they're sick because they don't feel good, because they woke up and they had a headache, and, you know, maybe they have a little bit of a tummy ache.

32:42

And, you know, obviously, in a saner time, people would look at them and say, hey, no more obligations, proceed, right?

32:48

Like, and if you're the kind of person who's constantly, like, working that category, then you end up getting fired in most places, right?

32:57

So. Yeah, I mean, so most normal secular employees are not gonna deal with that, you know, kind of thing, in perpetuity forever.

33:05

It's like, all right, yeah, you've pulled that card too many times, and now we don't believe you anymore, right?

33:10

So, I mean, I think, like, something, like, I think just sanity would prevail. Like, so I would just say that whatever physical sickness is, would, there is a category for that.

33:21

So, yes. Stage four cancer, can't move, whatever, you know? Now, I mean, obviously, like, years, people have been in stage four cancer and still wanna give to their spouse and do it delicately and whatever else, you know, kind of thing.

33:35

But, like, there's just, there is a category for that. And I'm not gonna define, you know, every situation for everyone, but that would be a category.

33:44

But then whatever that category is, I'm just trying to say it's not really depriving anyone at that point. It's just you're being, you're physically unable to fulfill normal responsibilities.

33:52

What about a spouse going out of town? Yeah, I mean, so I would think that if you are a spouse who goes out of town, you're not depriving anyone.

34:02

Okay. Because - You're not there. But, you know, is it the kind of thing where it's like, hey, you say, like, hey,

34:12

I'm not going to go out of town without my spouse because I don't want to? I mean, I think -

34:17

Deny them that? Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know what that all entails, you know? Like, I don't know what all entails.

34:24

Like, I mean, I obviously, I think couples should have this category in their mind. And, I mean, I think it's a weird thing for couples to go on separate vacations in general, period, you know?

34:35

Well, I was thinking more like work trips or, you know, something like that, probably. Yeah, I mean,

34:40

I think, you know, both people have conjugal rights. And if you have such frequent work trips that basically put you unavailable for significant periods of time, and your spouse is, like, not cool with that, then this would be an area where they could veto that, and you should take it seriously.

34:55

You see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Like, you should, it shouldn't, it shouldn't just be something you laugh off immediately if your spouse says, hey,

35:04

I don't want you doing that. I don't want you leaving for six months out of the year. Right.

35:09

You know? Now, does that include - That's a pattern of life. Because I have - Does that include - Conjugal rights, you know?

35:15

Does that include, like, military deployment? Yeah, I mean, I don't - Would you lump that in that category? Yeah, I mean, we could do a whole episode on military deployment, but I think a lot of,

35:24

I mean, I think it's ridiculous to get married to someone and, like, get married to someone and then knowing that you're gonna be deployed overseas for a couple years, and all

35:37

I've ever seen that happen, like, that always, I mean, I've never seen, I've hardly ever seen that end well, okay?

35:46

You know, so, like, that kind of, I mean, two men that have been thinking about getting married and then go, you know, be deployed overseas for a couple years,

35:57

I've looked at them and I basically said, hey, your mouth is writing checks, your body can't cash, you know? That isn't the way this works.

36:03

I mean, there's even Old Testament laws related to this kind of thing, too, you know? So, that you could speak to.

36:09

So, we'd have to do a whole topic on that, but yeah, I would think that, yeah, just employment in general, like,

36:16

I wouldn't describe that, I wouldn't describe, like, hey, you know, like, the idea, if you both agree that it's fine to go out of town or something like that, at that point, you're not really depriving anyone of anything, does that make sense?

36:29

Mm -hmm, yeah. So, yeah. I have two more questions, the second one being, what about a spouse who either physically abuses you and or cheats on you?

36:42

See, so, those aren't good reasons to deprive either. Okay, okay, why not?

36:48

What I mean is, like, you have marital obligations, so, like, the issue is, like, whatever a person's position on the abuse issue, right, whatever that means, like, physical abuse, whatever their position on that, what they should be arguing for would be some sort of, like, if you're gonna argue that divorce, that physical abuse is a reason to get divorced, then what you would be arguing is not a reason to deprive someone, you'd be arguing a reason to divorce someone.

37:18

Does that make sense? Uh -huh, yeah, so, you're basically having a completely separate conversation. Right, if someone cheats on you, they violate their marriage vows, at that point, you're having a divorce discussion.

37:30

What you're not having is a discussion that, so, what you're saying is, like, in this situation, this person has forfeited their rights, and they're no longer, you're married to them.

37:40

Do you see what I'm saying? But what you're not gonna do is, like, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

37:47

So, you can't, like, if you're, you know, in the situation, like, wife cheats on husband, whatever else, husband cheats on wife, you can't, in that kind of scenario, say, well,

37:57

I'm gonna continue to accept your material provision, you know, and for the rest of my life, while I'm living under, you know, your roof, and you're taking care of all my needs and everything else, and now, you've broken trust with me, therefore,

38:13

I'm not gonna do any, I'm not gonna fulfill any of my responsibilities towards you. It's like, you either need to be divorced, or you need to be married.

38:21

Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. If you're being, if you're divorcing them, like, you're not depriving them of conjugal rights, you're saying you broke the covenant, time to acknowledge it, right?

38:31

Yeah. But what you can't do is say, hey, we're gonna still be in covenant, in the covenant of marriage together, and I'm not gonna do my part anymore because you sinned.

38:40

Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Even if that sin is consistent, not just like a single isolated time, right?

38:49

Yeah, I mean, you either divorce them, or you forgive, and you be faithful.

38:56

You see what I'm saying? Right, yeah. So like, there's not like a scenario where you can just say, hey,

39:02

I'm not gonna divorce you, but I'm not gonna be a wife to you anymore, but you're gonna be a husband to me.

39:08

Like, it just doesn't work that way. Like, you can't just sin in perpetuity in response to their sin.

39:16

You need to get in a situation where you're released of obligations from them. Does that make sense? Yeah.

39:23

So then at that point, you're not depriving. You're just, you're saying you broke the covenant, let's acknowledge it, move on.

39:28

Yeah, separate conversation, completely different conversation. So the last one being, what about two spouses who come together, and they say, hey, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna agree to not have sex together, not for the purpose of prayer.

39:43

They're just deciding, you know, not to have sex anymore. Yeah, I mean, is that depriving or whatever?

39:51

Yeah, like, would that be in violation of what Paul is saying? They're coming together, and they're saying, hey, we're not gonna have sex.

39:59

It's not for the purpose of prayer. We've just decided, you know, we just, neither of us want to, right now, for the foreseen future.

40:10

I mean, obviously, like, there's part of this discussion that's related to age or something like that, right? Mm -hmm.

40:17

Like, meaning, like, sex has a biological function. And so, I mean, I think there's obviously, like, within this, like, you get to be where you're 80, and you're 90 years old.

40:31

You're hips no longer working, you know? You no longer have any hormones whatsoever related to these things, you know?

40:42

Are you talking about, like, you know, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak kind of discussion here?

40:49

All that, yeah. I mean, there's obviously, like, you think about what's being said here. You're talking about, like, depriving someone through illicit means, right?

40:57

So, I mean, there's obviously situations in the life of marriage to where, you know, the desires start slowing down on both ends of things.

41:04

You know, both people are perfectly satisfied. There's no, like, it's just, that becomes less important feature of the relationship at that point.

41:12

Just because, but I mean, at that point, you're really not, you're not even having a deprived discussion anymore.

41:18

You're just, like, neither one of you are able. You're having an ability kind of discussion.

41:24

Now, I mean, you have, like, two people who are, like, you have two people who are, like, one of which are burning with sexual desire or something like that, you know, and then you come to some sort of arrangement that, like, you're gonna, in an extended period of time, not for the purpose of prayer, take a break from this.

41:39

It's just like, yeah, you're just opening yourself up for temptation, and, you know, at that point, like, yeah, okay, maybe you're not, like, technically depriving one another in the sense of, like, you're not asking for anything, and neither of you want anything, but all you're doing is you're revealing the significant, like, problem in your relationship that Satan is gonna get a foothold and take advantage of, right?

42:02

So then, like, the additional command is, but come together again quickly so that Satan may not tempt you from your last, because of your lack of self -control.

42:10

So this is a feature of the relationship, you know, and even if you both agree to say, hey, we're not gonna take part in this or something along those lines, all you're doing is opening yourself up for temptation, you know, so you may not technically be, like, necessarily depriving one another in the strict sense of the word and that kind of arrangement, but you are opening yourself up to temptation and you're not really being a good picture of what marriage is, and don't be surprised if it, like, turns out horribly.

42:36

I mean, it's just, you know, we'll see how that goes, right? You know, and it may go fine for one party and not for the other, you know, but,

42:44

I mean, the only reason why, there shouldn't be any reason why you say, hey, yeah, you know what, I love you, care about you, but I don't want to be with you in that way.

42:50

It's just kind of gross, you know? It's kind of disgusting, it's not worth it, you know?

42:55

Just, whatever. Okay, okay, fair enough. Well, thank you, Tim, for answering all my questions, talking about this topic.

43:05

Some, it is pretty interesting, like I was saying earlier, how you can read a verse that seems to be so straightforward, very few qualifications at all, tied to the command, and yet our society seems just hyper -focused on trying to find every single excuse not to follow the command, right?

43:28

And so, that is something to think about, as those of you who are listening or are thinking on this topic, as you're reading scripture about this topic, is why does society have such a visceral reaction to seemingly a pretty straightforward

43:43

Bible verse? And I think deep down, we all know the answer. But we appreciate you guys for supporting us week in and week out, for listening to the podcast, for liking and subscribing to the

43:55

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44:04

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44:11

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44:23

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44:29

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44:35

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44:42

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44:54

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45:04

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