"Dabney On Fire" with Zachary Garris

All right, welcome to the conversations that matter. Podcast, my name is John Harris and I got another interview this week. I have Zack Garris with me and not Harris Garris. So the G not an H but you know Zack you're a brave man because you know, I Have a I guess a career as a student right now in history and I've studied a lot of antebellum sources.

And of course because of that I've had to be a little bit familiar with the works of Robert Louis Dabney. But in today's day and age He's not a very popular guy and you just came out with a book called Dabney on fire Which I think would probably be the situation a lot of people today would love to see Dabney and on fire.

But you of course meant that in a positive way so why don't you tell me about why you decided to publish this book and What you have gleaned from RL Dabney and just tell me a little about you know yourself and what you're up to as well.

Sure, well a little bit about myself I'm Seminary graduate went to Reform Theological Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi, and I actually just finished law school. So Kind of dabbling in two different fields as far as Dabney You know 19th century Presbyterian pastor theologian extremely influential And used to be considered a hero of the church certainly in Presbyterianism and He's really been dismissed.

You know today he's essentially ignored by most even within Presbyterian circles in my experience. Yet he was as I said extremely important. He was a leader in the Southern Presbyterian Church particularly after the War between the states and he was the first biographer of Stonewall Jackson.

So he's you know provided important resources there for later biographers and Yet he's ignored today because of his association with the Confederacy and he owned slaves and defended the practice. As far as the book, why did I publish Dabney on fire?

Well, if you read Dabney's works he's extremely helpful very insightful and a lot of his essays Applied to today, you know when he speaks on some of the things I include in this book on government Feminism, I mean he's dealing with the early stages of feminism, but his criticisms applied to today and he was able to Foresee a lot of the things that would happen in the future.

I think that's what makes Dabney so fascinating to read is he's he's dealing with the early stages of progressivism in the United States and He's predicting exactly where it's gonna go. And so he does this with public education with feminism and some other government policies and So that's why I published this book is just to make it more accessible.

You know you can Purchase his works on your own his Discussions is a collection of his essays is available, but it'll cost you, you know over $100 for the five-volume set. A lot of his works are available online, but they're usually scanned PDFs and Most people don't like to read those on your computer if you're like me.

So what I did is I took four of his essays. I put an introductory essay at the beginning and then I added footnotes an introductory Section to each essay of Dabney's and then I also added some more subheadings and Just made it easier to read.

So really the goal. This book is just making Dabney more accessible to.

Readers today. Yeah, it was accessible. I really appreciated your Headlines there. So when I was reading through it I could figure out okay, this is what he's talking about if I kind of lost track and You know, you have four essays here.

One is on parental responsibilities. One is on secularized education. The third one's on women's rights and then the fourth and last one is on civic ethics. And you know, you could tell Dabney has a wide breadth of knowledge and these he's a deep thinker.

And that probably is what inspired folks like Warfield and other Southern Presbyterians, especially to look to him as this kind of Monumental figure and I know he's written. I believe a systematic theology and other things as well.

You're just kind of compiling more his social.

Commentary. Right, is that correct? That's correct. And if people want more of his theology, I would encourage him to just go purchase his systematic theology. It is still available from Banner Truth and it's it's very helpful.

It was his Lecture notes from his teaching and he he published it. This was actually the second edition. But yeah, that was highly praised. It was used in the seminaries in the Southern Presbyterian seminaries.

Yeah, and so very influential work.

You know I first got into Dabney a little bit because like I said before my own interest in my own study in antebellum history, especially Ecclesiastical history and so of course that you know, I've pretty Familiar with the defense of Virginia in the South which is what he wrote after the war and you know If you're a Christian, especially but it just if you're a historian if you want to understand more of a Southern perspective I think you really need to read that book and there's a lot of Historians at Christian institutions who don't even know that the book exists which to me is is a little bit even if you don't agree with It you have to contend with the arguments that he's making.

I think to be educated on the topic. So that's how I kind of got familiar with him, but then you know, I As I was reading other sources and then so, you know post Bellum history, especially I saw that Dabney would say things In different essays that were just prophetic and you include one of these essays.

I'm gonna go out a little bit out of order I guess here, but Your second chapter on secularized education Dabney says something that just is prophetic. He says this is an 1879 just think about this 1879.

He says the state will fall into the hands of teachers who will not even teach secular learning. Honestly money will be wasted and the schools will become corrupting examples to their own pupils of slighted work and abused trusts.

Christians must prepare themselves then for the following results all prayers catechisms and Bibles will ultimately be driven out of the schools. Infidelity and practical ungodliness will become Increasingly prevalent among Protestant youth and our churches will have a more arduous contest for growth if not for existence.

That sounds like what we're living today, which is incredible to me that he could have seen this in 1879. And you know, he has insights like this on other things. I mean, I think his his essay on feminism which you include is the same exact way, but what gave Dabney this prophetic?

Kind of eye to see what was happening downstream from his time.

Secularized Education and the Rise of State Schools

Yeah, that's a good question. You read that quote that is fascinating, you know here he's writing almost a hundred years before Supreme Court Rulings driving prayer and Bible reading out of the public schools and he's he's saying this is exactly what's gonna happen.

How is he able to do it? I think Part of it is he was extremely well educated had You know as you mentioned just a vast array of knowledge, but he was also Very intelligent. He was very logical and so he's able to See what's going on at the time, you know this newly introduced statewide public school system in Virginia, which was new in Virginia and in the south after the the war and He's just following the logic, you know as to what's going to happen I mean he he makes the argument that It will not be a Christian system because it will have to cater to the lowest common denominator, which he says is atheism secularism and He's yeah, he's able to understand exactly what's what's going to take place so I I can't fully explain how he's so prophetic but that's just my my thoughts on is is his Intelligence it seemed to me.

Reading a bunch of these essays that Dabney like you said, he's a logical thinker. But he obviously and I don't know if you're presuppositional or not in your apologetic methodology but he I almost caught hints of what reminded me of Vantill a little bit even though he preceded Vantill and but he would have this ability to kind of look at a philosophy or worldview and Get to the bottom of it.

Okay, let's get to the skeleton. Let's get to the structure of what we're looking at and he would just pick apart the assumption the root assumptions of things and be able to extrapolate forward what would happen if these root assumptions were left unchecked and He said things I'm sure in his day that must have made people think that he was slightly nutty at least in certain circles.

You know, you're kidding me Bibles are gonna be taken out of schools, you know, women are gonna be abused. I mean, he's looking at feminism. It's like women are gonna be abused. They're gonna be you know subject to the brutality of men because they've given up their place as their uniqueness as a woman and and so people would have probably said you're crazy and look at him now and He looks like, you know exactly what was going on and you know.

Maybe we should go back and and check out what he had to say because maybe he has something to say to us today. That was my sense at least while reading it the first essay though that you Include in this is on parental responsibilities.

What can you tell me about? Dabney's view on.

Parenting as the First Duty of Christian Parents

Parenting. Well, this is Dabney's least controversial essay that I included in the book. And I wanted to start off with this one because I think it's an inspiring essay for Christians for parents aspiring parents and Dabney this was a sermon that he gave to the Presbyterian, Virginia and He really just Walks through the significance of parents and the task of parenting and I think some people kind of downplay the influence parents can have on their children and Dabney Really gets into the details, you know as far as the the morality of the parents even just in setting an example for their children that that will leave an impact on them for the rest of their lives and even gets into how Christians nominal Christians can leave a negative Mark on their children in the future because they've seen hypocrisy and the like.

And so he concludes the essay by saying Parenting is the most important task in the world. We're raising not just future generation, but Future Christians who will pass on the faith and so it's a it's a great essay.

Yeah, I know at one point. I'm looking for the quote and I can't find it, but he compares the love of God to the love of a parent and This beautiful passage where he talks about the sin that parents impart To their children and then how their duty is to one of their duties that if they're a loving parent and a Christian parent is to Help them know the Savior because in a sense They've passed on this sin and now they're going to help them get get rid of it by going to Christ the same way They did and I you know, I'm not doing it justice, but he said it in a very more flowery and beautiful way.

I thought What do you think? Dabney was facing in his own day that compelled him to write such an essay and then in our day What do you think Dabney's voice could teach us about parenting? Yeah, I'm not exactly sure.

What led him to? Write that essay. Other than just a deep conviction from the scriptures and he gets into the Bible a lot. Conviction that you know the role God has given parents and That is to produce a godly seed or offspring as he quotes from Malachi.

What does it mean for us today. Well things haven't changed, you know, we're still Having children. That's how you know humanity goes on. And so I think this is a task that Christians need to take seriously and I mean one thing it can do is inspire us to have children.

I think that's obviously something we're facing today is a declining birth rate even in the church, I Think it's kind of become the norm where parents Think oh how many kids do you want? And you know, they're now in the two to three range in the church where that you know.

That's it would have been a lot more back in Dabney's day. You know, he had six six sons three of whom died in Infancy, but people were trying to have more kids back back then because they knew the influence That they would have on the future.

Yeah, you know I made this connection. I don't know if you did but the parental responsibilities section which you include first was in 1879 that he Published that and then in chapter 2 secularized education.

That was the same year. And so I just thought well these two fit together beautifully. I think what he might be trying to tell us is that And we'll get to the secular education in a minute but is that parents need to first take their responsibility seriously for educating their children and which is included in nurturing them and raising them and providing and all of that and.

And this is not really the government's responsibility to do this. This is something that God has given to parents and so. So in the same way that he's against this secularized education. He is for Parents and the role that they have in their child's lives.

I made that connection at least. But but you know, let's get into the the second one here so controversy time right secularized education. Dabney is Against it, right? I mean describe for me what he believes about education.

Parents, Christian Education, and the Limits of Public Schooling

Yeah, this is a fascinating. I say this is actually how I first got into Robert Dabney was through his writings on education. I'd seen some quotes. I was reading some some books on Christian education.

I was like, whoa, this guy is impressive. And The the point of the essay it's an attack on the public schooling movement taking place as I mentioned in the South after the war between the states and You had some public schools in the South.

But this idea of a statewide movement was pretty new. It was first introduced in Massachusetts in the 1830s and then it was making its way into the South after the war. And so Dabney believed that education was a task that belongs to parents first and foremost.

So they didn't necessarily call it homeschooling back in the day. But just the concept that parents are supposed to teach their children. You know how to live some basic tasks in life. Maybe even reading and writing things like that.

So I'm gonna stop you real quick.

So so I just heard that Garris essentially say without being presentist and taking the word homeschool and repackaging. You know putting it back in the 1800s, but you the concept though. You're saying this isn't a new crazy idea.

This has been around and this is Was common in the United States? Before the Department of Education In the 1800s, so so this wasn't this isn't a new thing. I guess is my point. Is that right? Yes.

Absolutely. Homeschooling was the American tradition. Especially in the South. The Puritans, you know had the public schools and in the Northeast. They were local public schools not statewide. But yeah, the southern tradition was Homeschooling.

They would use private schools to aid the task and and so. Dabney's fine with private Christian schools. He thinks that's great. He taught at one. Was educated at these, you know kind of school houses, but they were private and they were Christian.

And so they were. Very different from the public schools that we deal with today.

Yeah, fascinating. Yeah, so his concern then is that education is going to be secularized as you said before because If you get everyone in a room and he I think he even mentions Muslims eventually says they're minority now, but you know eventually You know, you're gonna have other sects and religions pop up and if we want to have Everyone in the same room learning and you're gonna this neutral ground is going to be secularism.

Which is in really in fact a new religion. Which I think is the point that he makes is that this is this is a replacement of Christianity and based on that He predicts the sexual anarchy and and everything else that we're seeing today.

And I guess we've lived, you know with since the 60s with Bibles being taken out prayer being taken out so forth. So Yeah, anything else that jumps out to you I don't know if you had any favorite quotes or anything like that.

I mean the whole essay could probably be you could just like highlight the whole thing, right?

But yeah, that's it's kind of what you end up doing with that one. Yeah, he says that a Non-christian education is an anti-christian education. And I think that's an important line. He says it a couple times in there and so Dabney had no place for You know unbelievers in an unbelieving system educating Christian children.

And so yeah, this is extremely applicable to To our own day. He gives a lot of the arguments against that we can use today against our current public school system. And one thing, you know, he gets into some things you don't always think about.

I mean, he really emphasizes how other children will actually be one of the Largest influences negative influences on The children we place in public schools or that they can go for any school. That's the pooling of ignorance idea.

Yes. Yeah. Yes, and so it's not just about the unbelieving Instruction. It's also just the whole influence and I think we need to take that into account when we're evaluating You know educational options.

Yeah, it's interesting Dabney. You didn't include these essays, but Dabney Also wrote on geology in the Bible and a caution against anti-christian science and he seems to have this idea that Education in general and knowledge, I guess in general starts with as Proverbs says the fear of the Lord there has to be an understanding there Before you can really get off the ground intellectually, which I think maybe what reminded me a little of been till when I was reading it but.

Absolutely fascinating. I'm gonna read one of the quotes. That this is the first time he uses the word anti-christian in the essay you've included. But he says the concept of neutral or secular education is not only impossible.

So he makes a philosophical argument. This is impossible. You can't have it, but it is in fact anti-christian and goes on to predict more of what would happen, so. Yeah, I think everyone would do well to to get this book and to read kind of in a more Just an easier to read way with your headlines and everything the headers there what Dabney is is saying and.

And I appreciated that the next chapter that you've included as I said before, oh man, I just lost it. I Believe that was on See here woman's rights and the yeah, and he's writing this in 1871 right? So this is after Seneca Falls.

This is actually after the war between the states. But he makes some predictions here as well. What can you tell me about his predictions on what would happen if feminism was left unchecked and some of his critiques of the movement?

Feminism, Male Headship, and the Family

Yeah, so Dabney is dealing with first-wave feminism in the 1800s and He sees it as an attack on The family an attack on Christianity especially the idea of male headship. And so he sees Feminism as driving a wedge between husband and wife and Instead of seeing them as one flesh You know one household.

It's dividing them. And so husband and wife will you know actually be Strife with one another. And so his prediction is that feminism is going to Undermine the family. Undermine, you know Christianity weaken the church.

It's gonna make the situation for women actually worse,. You know, they thought it was finding freedom. But it was actually In Dabney's view going to make things much worse for them.

Yeah, there's a famous quote. From this essay. Or is it this essay. Or is it the one about American conservatism? I think it's from this one. I mark this one. I love did you. Yeah, you want to give it or so he says.

He's describing conservatism or specifically northern conservatism, which he says is the only opponent of women's rights at the time. And he says Northern conservatism. This is a party which never conserves anything.

Its history has been that it demurs to each aggression of the Progressive Party and Aims to save its credit by a respectable amount of growling but always acquiesces at last in the innovation. What was the resisted novelty of yesterday is today one of the accepted principles of conservatism and I just think I mean you could cite that for a number of issues, but You know, what are we actually conserving today?

I mean when you look at and politically or. Yeah, you know, we're oftentimes so-called conservatives of the Republican Party. They just adopt the latest Progressive policy and then make it their own.

Yeah, there's no principle.

He says American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows radicalism as it moves towards perdition. And this is said all the time in conservative circles, you know, you hear even on like talk radio to say well.

Do you want to jump off the cliff, you know at you know, full speed or half speed, you know. We're gonna get to the same destination either way. Republicans are just gonna do it more organized than in a smarter fashion.

And it rings true with a lot of the more like Tea Party conservatives because we're like, why aren't we balancing our budget? You know, why are we spending like drunken sailors? How come you know, we've been to get pro-life for how long and we can't really get much done, which hopefully that's changing.

But yeah, there's this sense that we just sort of adopt. The things that we fought before we just you know, they've become part of the party platform. You know like public education is a good example this was a controversy and now like no one even the most ardent conservative would think about eliminating the Department of Education.

Well, maybe the most ardent but you know, there's not many and they would probably be laughed out of the room. You can't do that. That's you know fundamental, right? So you were arguing about health care now and I'm preaching I know but you know.

How long before that is part of a plank in the Republican Party platform that well free health care is also a right? The government must provide and we're gonna do it in a smarter way. And that's what Dabney seems to be saying that.

There's no principle. We're we're unrooted. We just. Kind of we're the shadow that follows. You know, he doesn't call it liberalism but radicalism which is probably a better word to predict absolutely.

American Conservatism as the Shadow of Radicalism

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I think you know one of the You know, I would say the the chief problem of conservatism conservatism today is That it doesn't have a consistent ideology. And so Most conservatives can't You know actually defend their positions.

They're just trying to give reasons why we shouldn't adopt, you know, the latest progressive policy and. So they end up just following this as Dabney says, you know. You have a lot of conservatives now wanting some sort of paid family leave policy, you know they don't actually get rid of Obamacare they just Repeat you know, they were supposed to Get rid of all of it instead.

They just got rid of they modified some of it. But but the point being they don't argue for like a consistent principle such as free market health care or free market education. It's just given into the progressive Way, and it's it's sad and but Dabney can help us have a more consistent worldview.

I know Paul Gottfried I once heard him say that, you know, America doesn't have a lot of conservative thinkers in its history, but he listed Dabney as one of America's few conservative thinkers.

That's interesting that he did that. Because I you know, I was trying to think did Russell Kirk include. I mean he included Calhoun in his conservative mind. But I think Dabney because of he was a theologian and he's primarily known as that he gets overlooked a little bit.

But yeah in post, you know in Reconstruction era South he's probably one of the foremost political thinkers as well.

And I don't know that he's gotten. Yeah, that's that's what's interesting is. So what if he was a theologian? I mean that actually I mean in my opinion should Help guide him in some of these things, but he wasn't just a theologian.

He was also a political thinker. He addressed You know all sorts of these issues so. Yeah, it's it's not it's not fair to leave Dabney out of the discussion as many have. Yeah.

One of the things that I felt necessary to include in well There's two things in this conversation about women's rights, which is your third chapter that you include of Dabney his essay there on women's rights.

Number one. I think when we talk about first wave feminism the picture that people get is Wanting the right to vote and that's pretty much it just women's suffrage you go back to. You like Mary Poppins, right?

The suffragettes marching. That's probably the only image that a lot of people at least in pop culture have. But in actuality and then this comes out as you read Dabney's essay. There's a lot more being smuggled in behind that there's a lot more to it and I just know in my own study of First wave feminism, you know 1848 Seneca Falls.

They're doing seances in the basement read their Declaration of Rights. I mean marriage is slavery. It is radical stuff and that's what when I hear conservatives saying well the third wave feminists, you know they really have the problem like well, yeah, they do but First wave feminists kind of got that ball rolling and it become because I think it is my own opinion here.

But they became untethered from any kind of biblical authority. And of course, we were a Christian civilized. We were part of Christian civilization for. And and this was kind of I think one of the first steps to Have this autonomy that we can have these concepts of freedom and liberty apart from the constraints that were put on them necessarily by by nature and by the special revelation that guided us so.

So they wanted women in the clergy they wanted women in all professions and and this was radical especially at that time and. And so when Dabney's talking about it, you know, he's he's looking at. I think this is right before but you know.

The sentiment was still there things like Elizabeth Cady stats and you know publishing the woman's rights Bible cutting out all the verses that had to do with women submitting to men or the creation role that God has ordained and so.

So this isn't just Dabney griping about women are gonna vote now. But that's not if you think that's what he's doing. You need to read the essay because that wasn't the argument going on at that time.

So, I don't know if you have anything to add to that. But do you agree disagree? I mean, that's the way I look at it.

No, I completely agree. And this is something that needs to be said more often. Is that first wave feminism was? You know the origin of later feminism and Modern feminism today has its roots in this movement and it wasn't just for the right for women to vote, but it was also.

For really undermining marriage as you said Elizabeth Cady Stan was a radical she you know Did not like a lot of things written in the Bible about gender roles and so she's downplayed today a lot of times they.

People like to talk about Susan B. Anthony because she was less controversial but Stanton had she has quotes about Wanting no-fault divorce like easier divorce laws and a lot of these things that the feminists got later down the road.

There were also women pastors as you mentioned wrapped up in the movement. And of course, they don't get the attention that Susan B. Anthony does but even she herself was a Quaker. You know, this was not an Orthodox Christian and so yeah, yeah, I mean people should study the the feminist movement more.

Yeah, yeah, and I know we're not here to just discuss that but it has to be kind of brought up in this discussion. You know, you do realize because of what you and I just said we will never be running for political office but that's okay.

I wasn't planning on it anyway, but. Yeah, if you're a politician and you're listening and you agree with what we're saying just you might want to keep your mouth shut. But you know, so dab me, you know, whether you agree with all his critiques or not there's a general kind of attempt to bring scripture to bear on this topic and.

The other thing I wanted to bring up with this chapter to transition is today. This is kind of an issue I know you were mentioning to me before we started recording even in Presbyterian circles. This is an issue, but I know in the SPC right now with Beth Moore.

This is an issue preaching. You know, we have some of our SPC seminaries women on the board so they're making decisions about curriculum for men and there's this idea that a woman can really do anything as Long as they're not ordained as a pastor.

They could be the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. This idea has been floated now and I got it. You know, I don't like getting in Twitter wars. I got into one though starting last night a little bit and.

About feminism and just to see what people are saying about feminism. It just my head spinning because it's just so detached from biblical truth. So, um, I think we know what Dabney would have said if you were alive today about those things.

You know, but as you've interacted with Dabney as you've read some of his critiques. What would you have to say to? Modern PCA and SPC. Folks that are in conservative denominations wanting to transition them into this more egalitarian mold.

Biblical Gender Roles and the Limits of Egalitarianism

Well, I think. First and foremost, they're catering to the culture rather than basing their views and practices on on scripture. Scripture speaks very strongly about gender roles and you know men is having position of leadership in the home and in the church and I feel the.

What we're seeing today is Christians wanting to you know appease the culture in a lot of ways they want Women. We want to put women in positions of some sort of authority get him on staff roles and Leading Bible studies or whatever we can do to make it look like we're not sexist to the culture.

And I think that that's just not how we should be doing things as Christians. We should be going to the scriptures first. Looking at what it says about men and women and gender roles and. And going going from there rather than trying to please people who really don't care what we do.

Anyway, I mean they're gonna call us, you know sexist homophobic bigots. Anyway, so I just don't understand why we're trying to cater to these people. Yeah, I would agree with you there.

I think one of the strengths of Dabney is he looks at the role of women and he elevates it and says this is what? God created how beautiful is this. And you want to go destroy it and You know, you're in an attempt to be like men.

You're giving up one of the greatest gifts God's given you and I think that's powerful. And and I don't hear a lot of that and maybe even from myself, you know, I tend to get into discussions about okay well, what is Genesis chapter to say about women's role as a helpmate.

Or you know, what does Paul have to say and you know the three main passages that he talks about women's roles in the church and in the home and You know, maybe maybe Dabney has something to teach us on this.

Yeah, go for that. But also elevate who a woman is in the eyes of God and how that's unique and to be celebrated. And I don't know, you know, I don't know if we do enough of that, but.

Yeah, just if I can comment there, I mean Dabney you know, he sure gets this image of being the sexist guy who doesn't like women or anything, but Look, we need to understand people and at their time.

I mean, this was a man who had a wife I mean he cared very much for his wife if you read his letters and these things and if you read this women's rights essay he You know has a lofty view of women. He he views a women as Needing to be protected and cared for and they have The great task of motherhood and so he as you said, he just has this very high opinion of women but he understands that they're different from men and they have different roles and When you spurn those roles you are Going to cause some problems and so, you know, one of the subheadings in this chapter is women spurning their protectors.

He gets into that more in detail, but it it's the idea that feminism is actually throwing off male protection and That's part of why it's putting women in a purse worst place is leaving them vulnerable.

Well, he he uses words like they're gonna be corrupted and They have he you know, he doesn't want to disparage them. He uses the word disparage. I'm not disparaging them. But I am I am looking at the role that God gave them and wanting to champion that.

But there's a you know Section that you I think I mentioned there's a story right about a man. Yeah, you want to tell that story real quick see if I can recall at all, there's a.

Man on the. Was it a real.

Real wig. Yeah, I think I think he's sitting on a railroad.

Yeah, exactly, right. He's sitting there going somewhere and the woman asks him for his seat, you know won't you do the honorable thing give up your seat for a woman and. The man says, you know, let me ask you are you Part of the women's rights movement or are you a woman women's rights woman?

And she says yes, I am. And I don't remember his exact response. It was something he says.

So He says I will surrender it cheerfully meaning his seat madame as I always do but will beg leave first ask a civil question. Are you an advocate of the modern theory of women's rights. And Bridling up with intense energy. She replied.

Yes, sir, emphatically I Let you know that it is my glory to be devoted to that noble cause and he says very well Madame said he then the case is altered. You may stand up like the rest of us men until you can get a seat for yourself.

So I was Adapted is like this is you know, this is what you want. You're gonna be treated like men. So Yeah, it's a great. It's a great story. Yeah. The unless there is something else you wanted to add to the discussion of women's rights.

I wanted to jump to the last chapter.

I Want to maybe get into the idea of hierarchy, but I don't know if you want to wait on that.

Yeah, let's let's do that at the very end. Because I want we need to talk about that and we need to also Talk about what to do with Dabney because he's so vilified. So, you know you guys are talking about Dabney and you're saying positive things and we need to maybe have a little discussion on that.

But so let's talk about hierarchy after we briefly discuss his last chapter. The last chapter you include which is on ethics. Frankly, I got through this pretty quick. Because I didn't have a lot of time but it is a deep chapter and my takeaway was Dabney doesn't like the the idea that Sovereignty rests in people.