Right Use of the Law in the Church (James 2 prt 2)

Proved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence

Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reform to Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr.

White, you can call now by dialing 602 2 7 4 13 60. That's 602 2 7 4 1360 or if you're out of the

Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 8 8 8 5 5 0 13 60 That's 1 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60 and now with today's topic

Here's James White and good afternoon. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the dividing line My name is

Rich Pearson. I am today joined by Simon Escobedo from Alpha Omega ministries as well

And I want to let you know that we have well We have a shoot from the hip program for you today.

Yes, that's correct In a sense, it's going to be open phones to a degree.

What what happened today was a scenario where our primary leader for our discussion today called and let us know at the very last minute that he was ill and Apparently he was just struck ill at the last minute and folks, you know that happens to folks sometimes and there isn't much you can

Do about it, but to try to improvise adapt and overcome to quote a

Clint Eastwood line, but Anyway, I want to welcome Simon Escobedo to the show today.

How are you today Simon? I am doing great rich Good to be here. I get your sound levels up there for you and Yes, folks,

I We are improvising no doubt about it because I want to let you know I'm in here and I'm running

I'm doing the engineering of the show in here at the in the booth and Simon is in the talk studio and we

Have and let's bring him on the line right now is so that we can spend as much of our time Discussing with him as we can.

Dr. James White is sitting in an airport somewhere on his cell phone James how are you today?

I'm doing just fine. I'm at the Atlanta Hartsfield Airport out here and They'll be boarding my flight in in a while But I've got a few minutes to say howdy and see how y 'all are doing

James Let me be the first to say that we are anxiously waiting for you to return home

We have missed you these last 10 days indeed. Well, yeah, and I want to echo that that we really wish you were here

By The way Simon, it's 15 days Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting there hopefully this flight will be nice and fast and smooth and Looking forward to seeing the wife and the kids and you guys too, but you know

Yes, we're kind of meat. We're not the meat and potatoes. I'm sure no, no, definitely not but Since we talked last last week we

Finished up the series conference on Roman Catholicism there at Grace Reformed Baptist Church with an excellent session

Monday night with Pastor David King known to those who enter the chat room as guy man, and I took the time on Monday to put a

Section that's a very small section of his patristic citations in Support of solo scriptura and the clearness of scripture and the sufficiency of scripture into a

PowerPoint presentation So he was able to present those with the quotes up on the screen and all and I think the tapes of that 18

Sessions, I think since we sort of squished one of these 17 Sessions with Eric Benson myself

David King and Rob's in but how long are those sessions? Well, most of them went longer than they were supposed to let's put it that way

It's about about an hour each. We're talking about 17 hours Worth of material there that we'll be making available and rich.

You'll be glad to know that I have in my Hot little hands here the tapes of the debate with Paul Barber the

Church of Christ minister from Tuesday evening of this week On election and so we'll be able to make those available

Immediately and then just last evening at Faith Reformed Baptist Church in Mattapeck Long Island.

I spoke on Reformed and Baptist how the two terms are consistent with one another which included

Dealing with the issue of paedo -baptism and I have the tape of that with me as well So I'll have three tapes and then of course, it takes a little while to get the audio tapes and videotapes

Of the debate with Robertson Janice because they have to be dubbed down to the format so we can use

But I don't think it'll take it too long to get those and so there's gonna be a lot of new a lot of new information

Appearing on the the web page here in the in the short period of time as far as new offerings

And I think that 17 tapes set on Catholicism was very very useful excellent

Well, why don't you characterize just a little bit for those of us who haven't had a chance to hear yet? I myself included

How did the debate go with Robertson Janice? well I think people who saw the the web page know that we had put up a a joint

Statement concerning how debates were to be done We had felt I had felt that last year there had been an excessive amount of personal attack involved in the debates and So there seemed to be a change of heart on mr.

San Genesis part due to various sundry circumstances and so we had written this joint statement and Posted it and I believe we both lived well within the spirit of that agreement

The the result of that was the issue that was debated was in point of fact the doctrine of justification and So it was focused upon that and I think

I think exactly what I wanted to happen did happen And that was we were focused upon the difference between monergism and synergism of the the view that God saves or the view that God saves with the help of man, and so I think it was very very useful in fact

Chris Arndt was telling me of an individual Who he had met the first year of the debates which had now five years ago now in?

1995 or six around that area Who described himself as a senior age? He did not believe anybody could be saved outside of Roman Catholic baptism and He had contacted

Chris. He attended the this debate He was already having a lot of second thoughts about Catholicism the debate confirmed a lot of that He picked up a book there at the debate about two -thirds through the book

After he got home. He he realized he could not stay there any longer, and he'll be attending Rich Leverence's Bible Baptist Church where I did the series on the soul of the

Reformation back in January this coming Sunday, so Yeah, so it was

Really, I felt both debates went very very well. I think Both I I think we should put a a set together

Of the Roman Catholic controversy the potter's freedom in these two debates because I think they illustrated so clearly the

The fact that in essence they were the same debate just with different How do

I put it accoutrements and what I mean by that is the argument The arguments for example if you hear applause in the background, that's not for me

A captain just showed up for a flight that had been Delayed so that the people are clapping for the pilot just showed up What happens when we'll let live radio folks, you know, it's just the way it goes.

Anyways, both Both debaters used pretty much the same argument against my position

Both side first Timothy 2 for I had to provide the same explanation to both individuals

You know, even though one is is a Church of Christ minister and one of the Roman Catholic apologists in essence sinner just argued the same and sadly again outside of particulars

For example, the Church of Christ guy mentioning baptismal regeneration or the Roman Catholic mentioning a sacrament of penance some like that Other than that as far as the actual arguments about grace and faith

Robert and Janice Paul barber and Norman Geisler all argued the exact same way Wow You know, it's interesting the coming down here

Simon and I had kind of discussed in even in Lordship controversy issues how similarities exist between Approaches and it all oftentimes comes down to your view of God and God's Activity or action in saving souls, right?

How they all seem to kind of come from different angles, but all end up in the same same place errant,

I know that Chris Arndt and out here on long well I'm not in Long Island anymore but on Long Island really wants to arrange a debate on that subject as well on the

Easy believe is in Lordship controversies saying there is a radio teacher out here

Who really pushes the easy believers and stuff the problem with this particular individual is that?

He has a really hyper dispensational view where he believes that only Paul's epistles are relevant to the church

Paul is our apostle as he put in fact I heard him while I was out here and James and Peter all those are irrelevant to us

They were not our apostles their apostles to other groups But the only apostle for today is

Paul so it would make it a little bit more difficult to Debate that individual because first you you basically be debating his rather peculiar view of the canon of scripture first So we may be looking for someone else to to do that type of thing

But there's all sorts of interest in addressing those those very issues as well. So anyway, it's gone really really well out here and I'm looking forward to getting this information back and I'm also looking forward to hopefully we getting more books

From Calvary Press, do you know when they might be arriving? I'm I'm not real sure

I understand that your personal shipment is on its way and we're hoping that the additional cases that we're looking for will be there soon as well, but I think they all came together or we coming together because We did not have any books to sell at the last

Basically anything else I did right because They're out and they sent the last of what they had to us

So, well, let let me let me bring you up to speed and our listeners a little bit on what's been going on back here

While you've been out there our little offices as I'm sure you can imagine have been buried in books and I hold in my hot little hands myself

A Little how you like that? Yes, a special effects. Yes special effects of the dividing line.

Yes a Email and and I think it's appropriate that we don't mention who sent it

Although I don't think the gentleman would mind but I found this email Very telling

I think it just goes to show And I want you to know how many folks that you've blessed

By doing this work Dr. White I received my copy today and we'll be working through it at once Yeah, of course, he's talking about the

Potter's freedom. I see already you have not disappointed us in your response to dr. Geisler So thank you for your effort

I am sure that you have already been rewarded simply by working through the relevant material and being reminded again of so great a

Salvation dr. Geisler is a good man and SES is a great school I graduated from SCF after four years under a number of wonderful professors.

Dr Geisler was one of my thesis advisors and I gathered precious knowledge there by the truckload

But I was profoundly disturbed when chosen but free appeared last summer And I am grateful for your work to set the record straight and uphold the truth of the gospel

And he signs it right on Well You know, there are many cycles lingo for the rest of you folks ride on ride on There there are tremendous blessings

Wednesday night I spoke at North Shore Baptist Church where we'd had the debate on Tuesday night on the subject of predestination

It's a tough night. I coughed all over my my presentation It's very humid out here in my my science has gone pain

After the the sermon was over the phone rang and What was going on was

North Shore Baptist Church has four men over in India right now Who are teaching pastors in India the doctrines of grace and the way this developed was about three years ago, they were airing

Programs on the local access Cable network and one of the things that pastor

Edmore of that church had preached on was on well a Pastor Ezra from India was in New York for some reason at that time

So he lived in India and he called the church and wanted to know more Well, they got together with him and one of the things they sent him back to India with was a little blue book published in 1990 or 1991 called

God's Sovereign Grace All rich that the first or second year I was out in his second year I was out here we had shipped a bunch of those books and drawn by the father to North Shore Baptist Church and They had just gone ahead and bought all of them and they've just been distributing them since then

Well, lo and behold here is this Indian pastor somewhere? I think in near Kuala Lumpur or something like that in India Who has been using this one little copy of God's Sovereign Grace to be training dozens of pastors?

Oh my and so if he called the the men and the pastor call because they knew

I'd be preaching that night just so they could talk to me and Like we spoke over about how many thousands was that five six thousand miles away?

We spoke on the phone and he asked if he could please translate God's Sovereign Grace into whatever the language is that they have there because they only have one copy and they'd like to have it in the

Indian language so that they could train more pastors with it And of course, I was more than happy to tell him that he was more than more than more than willing

If you want to do that, he could do it. So he had had my permission so there could be translating God's Sovereign Grace into Whatever the language is there to continue the work of training pastors and grounding them in the word

And of course I said, well, we've got another book. We'd like to send over to you as soon as possible Called the potter's freedom to it.

So it was really neat to see something that was written a decade ago now still ministering in here in India of all places where there's these pastors and there's such a dearth of good

Christian literature Available for distribution in those areas. So it's really neat to see something that we've done

Bearing fruit over there. Excellent. That's just great news. And yeah, just to let you know along the lines of what

I was saying before We were able to ship well, we went through packing seven cases of The book breaking it down and shipping it between Friday Afternoon, which we got a mid mid -morning

Friday and Monday we had shipped over well close to 200 copies at that point and And then the remainder of the pre -publication orders were filled

Tuesday mornings So we had a very quick turnaround getting those books into people's hands as quickly as possible

And it's it's just blowing my mind right now because the the the most common question I'm being asked is well, when will these be in the bookstores?

It just is is wonderful to be able to say well since I actually got my copies before the publisher actually got theirs

I've probably got about a two -week lead time on the bookstores And that's if they have a heads -up to get them in as quickly as possible.

Yeah. Well, you got to realize we're we're up against the the reality of My own publisher at that point that is

Chosen the freest published by Bethany House and Calvary Press is not Bethany House Well, there will be

I think a large majority of bookstores that will not carry my book even if they do carry

Dr. Geisler so but we do it is available to them if they want to order it

Because Spring Arbor is carrying it, but we're gonna have to rely on word -of -mouth We were excited to see that in RC scroll juniors magazine every thought captive There was a a blurb in the current edition

That makes reference to the Potter's freedom and says something along the lines. I'm only paraphrasing here

I'd have to look it up in the email that was sent to me But it said something along the lines of the

Potter's freedom annihilates Geisler's arguments and sweeps off the spot. He was standing on Something along those lines so There's some good

You know good word -of -mouth type of thing like that going on But that's that's how the the books can be getting out.

Let me let me ask you something James I've got a little note here an email that was written on the same issue and It's a question.

I'm sure you're going to be asked quite a bit the Writer says so far. It's a great read Geisler has definitely met his match and I am glad has dr.

Geisler Responded at all to dr. White will there be any debate?

Well, I signed a copy and sent a letter Along with it and I I would assume it's probably arrived by now.

I don't know I had to have the folks at Calvert Press send it So what I did is I took the text of that letter and I put it in an email and dr

Geisler's email address is listed on the FCS edu web page. And so I sent that on Monday or Tuesday and So far,

I have not received a response now. I did reiterate in the letter my desire for a public dialogue both on the issues the

Potter's freedom as Well as the I think related issue and that is dr.

Geisler's assertion that Rome is a true church teaching significant error over against my belief that at the false false church teaching elements of truth and I reiterated my desire to do that the fact that I feel that the

Church as a whole would be benefited and edified by that kind of encounter that it can be done in a in a

Proper way similar to the debate that I did with the Gary Johnson and Dr.

Strimple on pedo -baptism a few years ago there in Phoenix But I have not heard anything in responses yet Excellent.

I haven't gotten my email today either. So There could be something waiting for me When I get back, but so far

I have not received a response from dr. Well, hopefully that that response will be a positive one we we all hope for a dialogue there and and I think that ultimately

For for all of us in in thinking through the impact of this book and in the fact that the whole subject is being discussed

At large is good for the church. It is going to cause believers to rethink their their foundations rethink their presuppositions as we like to say a lot at Alpha Omega and and You know question and ask the pertinent questions from Scripture Am I dealing forthrightly?

With with what the page has to say or am I trying to read a human understanding into certain passages?

Am I as we like to point out oftentimes am I? Being guilty of the the major sin of the

Proverbs which is pride Right how much of my pride is entering in to my view of God?

Yeah Well, I don't know what's gonna come of it But I'm just thankful to see the book out and thankful to see it being distributed and unfortunately

I'm gonna have to let you guys go I've been on for about 20 minutes or so now and well as I told you before the show

We're going to let you go kicking and screaming as but you do need to catch your flight and we do we do pray for traveling mercies for you as as you come back home and and We really we miss you and we hope well, hopefully see y 'all either tonight or tomorrow morning.

Excellent. All right All right. Take care James well a

Unexpected but very welcome Visit from James an update there for us.

It's the most time we've been able to spend with James in a few weeks and We certainly are looking forward to hearing from him

Hearing a report from him next week here in the dividing line as he'll be live in the studio once again

I know many of you are looking forward to that The issue as I was introducing the show in the first place the issue that we originally had intended on Getting into today.

We wanted still want to dabble into the Lordship controversy but what we've chosen to do is kind of go into an open phones kind of mode here as we try to shift gears and Have a as much of a quality

Dividing line as we shoot from the hip as we can but We we are looking to discuss issues that Simon and I are both

Up to speed on that. We are qualified to discuss as many of you know

There are those of us. I've done a number of shows on the Mormon Church. So it's open phones

We're looking for your assistance as we discuss the the remainder of the show 1 800 or no,

I'm sorry one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty They're outside the Metro Phoenix dialing area if you're in the metro area.

It's 602 two seven four thirteen sixty and We welcome your calls and hope to be able to talk with you today

If you have received your copy of the Potter's freedom as these gentlemen who have already emailed us and shared their initial thoughts we'd like to hear from you and In in basically thinking what your initial thoughts and comments are from the book

We want to discuss the issues that the Potter's freedom comes up with we want to get into the lordship controversy and discussing some of the key

Components of that get into some of the history We also want to talk about if you'd like to questions about Mormonism Jehovah's Witnesses If you've got some questions and be prepared for this if you know don't go looking for I'm gonna get the toughest question

I can possibly think of and get it on the air and see if I can stump the guys You know, it's not a stump the guys kind of show

If I don't know the answer to the question and Simon doesn't we're gonna defer to ask you to to Call back next week and talk to dr.

White. I'm not afraid to say that I don't have all the answers, but I am well versed in in witnessing to Mormons.

I've been doing it since 1986 I can cover the basis pretty well and get you answers if you're looking for how to witness to Mormons and And sharing that information as well as being able to talk about tenants of the

Reformed Faith so as we're getting into those issues one of the first points that I'd like to do would be to To get into subjects that Simon's screening a call right now

So he's that all right There we go because we're like I said, we're kind of shooting from the hip here kind of having to share responsibilities in the studio and What I did want to do is give

Simon an opportunity to kind of introduce some of the background into the issue of the

Lordship controversy and How this has come about and and what it is

Well rich last time that we were we were doing the program as you remember Mike and I went through James chapter 2 and That's an interesting passage because it's used by quite a different folk from different perspectives when we're out witnessing to the

Mormons or to the Jehovah's Witnesses or to whoever the The constant response that we get out there is that you cannot possibly hold

To salvation by faith alone because doesn't James to teach the necessity for works

So you we try to address that issue in our last program But that that raises another perspective that is often thrown and that is that those who do have saving faith do not necessarily

Have to evidence that through good works and though we kind of rushed at the end of the program there

We got to verse 26 that states for as the body without the spirit is dead

So faith without works is dead also and of course the point that Mike and I were trying to present was that there is in the

Essence the nature of saving faith the inevitability of good works now as you know back in 1988

John MacArthur had written a book called the gospel according to Jesus and It was a book that specifically addressed quote unquote those who who held to an easy belief

Ism type of a position that is that salvation really is merely just a matter of belief

In fact, it's been coined decision ism And whence you can make a decision for Christ and pretty much it's a settled issue

And if you go the rest of a lot your life, and there is no evidence of fruit There's no demonstration that indeed there has been a work of grace but that is not reason in and of itself to question the validity of that person's salvation and Then also in the gospel appeals the messages that were being preached

Never was the Lordship of Christ Proclaimed because it was felt that if you were to press upon People who were hearing the gospel the needs not only to believe but to repent

That is that there was a necessity to turn from sin and turn to Christ Then essence basically what you were saying is there was some work attached to the gospel message

And so John MacArthur wrote this book and I find it Interesting as a footnote in in the fact that the potter's freedom has just come out that both

James and MacArthur in their Presentations are addressing individuals who are proponents of obviously the opposite views and when

MacArthur originally presented his work There were constant Outrages that were being thrown out there against his obvious opposition to Zane Hodges Charles Ryrie and others and of course there have been some who have suggested, you know, why is is dr.

White? Going after dr. Geisler in these in this way. All these men are good Christian men.

They're sound in the faith I think it needs to be understood that in both cases both in dr

White's book the potter's freedom and in MacArthur's book both of them are not seeking to attack men personally

There is a well, we got a break that we're going to all right We're gonna take a break and be right back with the dividing line

You Beautiful but warm Saturday afternoon out here in Phoenix, Arizona for those of you back east

I Wonder if the the temperatures are starting to turn up on you I looked at the the weather map the other day

It was I found it quite interesting the whole nation seemed to be under this great big cloud You know lightning symbols all over the place in this big great big

Sun just sitting over, Arizona It has been unseasonably warm down here I want to mention

Calvary Press is yes the publisher of the potter's freedom as I've been talking about over the last three weeks and I have failed to mention something about Calvary Press that I wish for all of our our

Audience members to take advantage of so if you've got a pen get a pen the piece of paper and write this down Calvary press dot -com

Calvary press one word dot -com Take a look at their website

There's all kinds of books and opportunities that they are offered there on that website.

They have some of RC Sproul's Sermons and his productions from Ligonier ministries on real audio there on that website as well as several others so They are the publishers of the potter's freedom, and I also want to say here

I haven't mentioned this before that When it comes to the reaction that we've gotten from this book so far it is yes tremendous

It is I'll give you an example for those of you who? may be familiar with when the

Forgotten Trinity came out a Dynamite book that James wrote that really addressed a needed subject a needed subject on the fact that the

Trinity seems to be getting washed away in the In the evolution if you of our society as it is transitioning into a more subjective

Touchy -feely kind of society and theology isn't that big of a deal anymore well we We pre -sold

I believe 30 or 40 copies of that book and at the time that was wow that was great this book

So in pre -sold Numbers did 200 Wow in pre -sold numbers and and of course everybody's banging on our door going when am

I going to get it? When am I going to get it? When am I going to get it so it is an exciting book? It is much in demand a lot of folks are sinking their teeth into this book very quickly

Getting back to our subject here today Simon the brick came sneaking up on you and the lordship controversies you were kind of giving us some background into Into how this whole issue came about well, and as we went to the break.

I was trying to point out that The motivation behind both men that is

John MacArthur and James in addressing these specific issues Was a passion for truth neither one obviously would in any way seek

Attack of the men that are presenting the opposite positions but nonetheless as it as it is when you deal with the truth and truth offends there's going to be controversy and such has erupted since the books released the gospel according to Jesus back in 1988 now rich if you don't mind me being a little anecdotal here at this point.

I found a relevant Experience yesterday they kind of help help me put this thing into my and my thinking today as we were presenting this topic

Yesterday as I was I was working Two young ladies approached on my counter, and I work as a parts counter person and these two young ladies were employees there, so I knew both of them and They were talking amongst themselves, and then as I was on the other side of the counter

I was I was listening in and let's let's describe one as a young lady a and the other is young lady

B And as they they were dialoguing young lady a was relaying a story and in the midst of her story she was about to utter an expletive and As she did she stopped and the young lady

B Looked at her and says I know what you were going to say why didn't you say it and she says well, I I couldn't say because Simon's right across the counter from me and Young lady

B. Then looks at young lady a and she says well Are you converting and she says well?

I've always been a Christian and You know I have my struggles like everyone else now since I know the history of both young ladies.

I can pretty much say that Knowing them that they are as far removed from Christ and his gospel as one could be

But it certainly kind of again emphasized the necessity to preach the biblical gospel because there are

Lots of people out there rich, and you know them I know them people that not only at one point where our friends some are our family members who have been led to believe that because they have prayed a prayer signed a card or Some kind of an event that took place a long long time ago prayer, and I got baptized and baptized yes and so you're just more of a wet sinner than you were before but are as lost as can be and Have absolutely positively no desire for Christ his word his church and But is are nonetheless clinging to some decision and and again

This is the reason the motivation behind the book that was written, so that's kind of a summation I hope that brings us up to speed and and gives people an idea of what we're addressing here by the way

I will mention this to kind of close this off the only reason rich that this became a controversy in the first place is

Because John MacArthur as you know is a dispensationalist And he would be considered quote -unquote among those in this specific evangelical circle and quote

Reformed folk obviously have no problem with this issue because at the very Essence of this discussion is how do you view the nature of saving faith?

And is it a divine gift now since John MacArthur is a part of that dispensational circle?

I guess it was assumed that he viewed things much the same way they did and when he came out with this and made it clear that Obviously he stands on the reform side as far as faith being a grace a gift that is given by the father

That all of a sudden this eruption took place within that evangelical community So that's an important thing to take note of okay, and you we have a caller on the line

You yes, we do have a caller on the line interestingly enough from the Dallas area and His name is

Andy. Yes. How are you today Andy? I'm doing just fine here in the buckle of the

Arminian belt Now Andy before you before you say this and I won't forgive myself but off topic here

Are you a Dallas Cowboys fan rich knew this was coming because I am a diehard

Dallas Cowboy fan And and I am died in the war Washington Redskins fan.

Oh, well, I am a fan when they are winning Okay, I believe you had something

Like that Andy I just all right when I see Dallas on my paper here I get all excited, you know

Okay, go ahead with your question. Well the question that I have and that I hear People in this area speak about referring to passages such as Luke chapter 14 verse verses 26 and 27

They seem to redefine disciple Whereas in my mind a disciple is synonymous with a

Christian in their mind a disciple is looked upon as something like a higher calling exactly

And you know if any man hate not his father and mother and wife and children He cannot be to my disciple with any man, you know, bear not his cross and come after me

He cannot be my disciple and the way I see that they squirm out of this is they say well, that's

Referring to a higher calling not necessary for being a Christian and I'd like to hear your comment

Well, let me ask you Andy Would you then say as I have often thought that they have then?

Redefined the Lord's ministry not as one that came to seek and to save that which was lost But to came but to come and to call already believers to a higher level of commitment

Would you agree with that? I would agree with that Yes, and hence the Great Commission is no longer go out into all the world and make disciples

Basically, it's been reduced to go out into all the world and get decisions A very good point

Yeah, interesting because the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear that is now there you're actually developing multiple classes of Christians multiple classes of those who quote -unquote follow a particular religion within that within that scope and The problem that I've got with that is you use you see

Certain times and eras in church history where that actually took place to where you know, the society within the church actually developed different classes or in the in the book of Acts you immediately begin to see this if you will class envy where you've got your

Jewish Christians and then you've got your Gentile Christians and of course the

Jewish Christians are much better and more devout than the Gentile Christians because Well, they have the the fathers they have the the patriarchs they have

Moses and they have Abraham They have all these other things So they are the better of the two and I think it's very dangerous to to try to do to slice up what the definition of Christian is we were talking last week actually two weeks ago when we did the show and we're coming in and we're we mentioned the the

Barbara Walters the 2020 show where a Southern Baptist Church down in Texas was

Criticized for how they disciple and we would not agree with their tactics in the way they went about things

But really the problem that the press People here had was more with the fact that they dared to do

Evangelism or something like that and it just it struck me odd That the here she's actually

I totally lost my train of thought there Simon I just went flying around the window and I lost where I was going with that as I thought about Barbara Walters She can do that to you.

Oh, man rich But I think it's dangerous to to to try to slice and dice what it means to be a

Christian in that regard, you know, I was I was reading a Statement by a and they hate to be called this in fact

They they they just absolutely cringe when you mention this But the fact of the matter is that's exactly what they are there they would hold to a no lordship position

But I was a reading one who who took that text that You know when

Paul says do not be deceived The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God and then he goes on to say in 1st

Corinthians 6 9 be not deceived neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor abusers of themselves with mankind

Nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God now when the

Apostle Paul as he so often Does says be not deceived. Oh We come out to another break there.

Yeah, we got a break Andy Can you hold over for the break and I'll talk with you some more right after the break You You know, the thing is

Simon I that strikes me that Well, I tell you I'm sitting here pushing buttons right and left and I get this thought for a second

It's very relevant and then I put it on It's like somebody hit the eraser in my head now

Rich. What did you think of that that little comment? I made on that passage that That no

Lordship person mentioned is that is that an incredible statement or what? Well, I think that ultimately, you know one has to come back to in this this thing

I think you've helped me refresh my memory what is the book of James telling us and That ultimately, you know, we can dispute the the usage of it with Mormons, etc

But it seems like quote -unquote evangelical Christianity in America seems to not be grabbing a hold of the fact that there is evidence of a changed life absolutely when when

I first was confronted with Christ and a Conversion, I don't believe happened way back then with me

But the thing is is that the individuals back in the late 70s who were confronting me with with Christ?

Kept talking about how I need to be a new creature okay, and they kept talking about the fact that That I believe it's a is it first Seth the second

Thessalonians 517 or am I thinking of first Thessalonians? I think it's that you mean the passage if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation

I think that's first Corinthians 517. They kept hitting me with that passage and You know, it strikes me that seems to have departed the vernacular of the modern witnessing

Technique in in our day and time and the book of James I think the point that it makes loud and clear of anything is that if a person has a genuine saving faith if a conversion if a changed life has actually happened if God has sovereignly

Changed the heart of that man change that stony heart into a heart of flesh The evidence is going to be there.

Absolutely. The evidence is going to be there and they're not going to just keep on living like the world they're gonna change the way they were and I tell you something when

I see when if as I like to put it when God Grabbed ahold of me by the neck and dragged me to himself okay, the change was drastic and it was serious and I did an about -face right and And so I can

I can testify to that change that that takes place in the life of genuine

Regeneration and it's important to note what we are not saying is That a

Christian will never ever sin again that we're holding to some kind of a perfectionism type mentality

Indeed there is remaining sin We're not glorified yet but the bent the nature that has been changed is that which longs to serve and Please Christ and the question that has to be asked which

MacArthur does in his book Does Christ save a person That he cannot command.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's go to Dennis in Phoenix Dennis. How are you today? All right, you guess well

We'll not get into that. Okay. I Was thinking of some verses in the book of Acts of 17 verses 30 and 31 says therefore having

Overlooked the times of ignorance. God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent Because Doesn't verse 31.

He has fixed a day in which he will judge the world and righteousness through a man whom he has appointed Having furnished proof to all men by raising him from the dead

So I don't see option an option as far as repentance Yeah, absolutely. I think that in my impression of what's gone on there in the arena of repentance

Has a lot to do with a little pamphlet that is very commonly well -known and that's called the four spiritual laws and I think oftentimes trying to the attempt to simplify and If you will cut down the gospel to its most basic points can be a dangerous thing

And I think that pamphlet goes to show What can happen there I know that I've got a lot of people right now out there going

Hey, wait a minute now, you know God use that to lead me to Christ on and on folks I just ask you to look at one thing if you have one of those sitting around take a look at how much of the gospel

Is expressed there and how much of the gospel is? avoided there

This is and it's not that's not the only piece of literature out there But that would be one of the prime things that most folks are aware of And and I think the problem is that you start oversimplifying the gospel you start making it

Madison Avenue palatable palatable to the average man to the world and Especially if you believe on the basis that that it's of yourself that you come to Christ That you have to make these decisions then ultimately it comes down to how good of a convincer are you as well?

How good of a convincer are you in the verse in Acts 11 18? It says when they heard that they quieted down and glorified

God saying well Then God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life

Absolutely, and in the end in the Great Commission Yeah, the substance of that message that was to be preached you find at the close of Luke's gospel there in Luke 24 46 our

Lord says thus it is written and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day and that repentance and Remissions of sin should be preached in his name among all the nations

I mean, that's the very substance of the gospel itself to believe and to repent and again

Denison as you know These are issues that are not an issue a controversy in reformed circles because we recognize that both faith and repentance are gifts

Given by God they come after regeneration has taken place And the only reason there is a controversy at all on this topic is because there are those who still will not embrace the biblical presentation of divine sovereignty

Well, there's a dispensationalism and Arminianism are just breeding grounds for these things. We think they're so innocent

You know, okay, there's still saved but it just opened the door for all these kind of things, right?

I'm not sure how I mean, I thought John MacArthur was reformed I heard him on the Bible Answer Man recently and I can't say what

I can't say exactly what he said But I found myself going. Hey, wait a minute the way he was talking about the gospel

It don't seem like he'd backtracked more deeply into Arminianism. Hmm. That would be interesting to look at that because I have read numerous amounts of his works

I've of course as you're probably aware Phil Johnson is a staunch Calvinist and Does all the editing for his books and so there's seems to be they seem to be on the same page

I would at least think so But again, the reason that this caused so much of a problem is because since he is identified with that dispensational tag

It seemingly went against what normally are considered dispensational distinctives and one of them would be that they're not

Notorious for being known as Calvinistic in their soteriology That's a possibility that's a possibility

Well, Dennis, we appreciate your call today. Thanks for calling in and helping us through another dividing line and yes, there's the

But we were having so much the end of the show getting going rich. We made it through we survived and folks

We want to thank you James White. We'll be back in studio next week. We all look forward to hearing from him and We'll see you next

Saturday afternoon on the dividing line The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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