Shabir Ally Debate

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Travel Update and Upcoming Debate at Duke University

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. I guess it's barely afternoon. It's afternoon here. I am back in the United States of America. Just had good old American food had pretty decent Chips and salsa, in fact and That was something I really needed.

I'm gonna tell you something there. If you're going to London, just just give up on finding good chips and salsa because there just isn't any such critter As that to be found anywhere. That's just just all there is to it.

So be that as it may we are now in Durham, North, Carolina. And We are preparing for our Dialogue as the official term on Thursday evening tomorrow evening with dr Zulfikar Ali Shah at Duke University and Then Friday and Saturday speaking a total of three times at the back of the truth conference.

That has been advertised for quite some time on the website on the banner ad and any of you who are in The Durham Raleigh Durham area, please feel free to come and visit you can see the registration Requirements on the website and we'd be happy to have be speaking on Islam and the cross on the results of the disastrous results of modern Preaching that is not biblical in nature and then also some lessons from history on surviving in an age of apostasy so those would be the topics that I'm addressing other than the debate Thursday evening, of course, which will be a Comparison contrast between the Quran and the Bible and that'll be with dr. Zulfikar Ali Shah at Duke University.

So then after I get done speaking in the morning on Saturday I head for the Raleigh Durham Airport and fly back to Phoenix, Arizona. Having been gone for 16 days and I am very much looking forward to Get home I would like to once again.

Debating Shabir Ally and the Use of Liberal Scholarship

Thank very sincerely as I put on my blog the folks who made my visit to London so successful and such a blessing especially Roger Brazier and his family and Doug McMaster's and his family. I know Doug is not listening right now because Doug is currently on an airplane flying to Jordan.

So here he was doing all this stuff for me and the very next day. He was flying out Visit to one of the church's missionaries in in Jordan. So I very much appreciate that if you hear some background. No, that's because I have my window open it's only in the 40s here in Raleigh Durham, but for some reason Even when it's that cold outside the room still get warm.

And if I had this particular air conditioner, oh It's that loud. So you'll hear the emergency vehicle By in the background right now, or maybe you don't I don't know but It's getting closer. As we speak There's the Doppler effect as it goes by anyway, I did want to see if we could Take some phone calls today if there's anyone who would like to comment on what you've been seeing on the blog.

I've been As best I can to post clips actually have one other clip posted on my youtube page that I have not blogged yet which includes the I think it's the it's a 15-minute clip. With the cross-examination between myself and Shabir Ali as I recall From the second of the two debates.

I think that's which one it is. I'm gonna be playing a section. I actually What is that? It might be hmm, it might be what I'm gonna play here or not, I don't know I have it a Cue it up and go ahead and play that one way or the other even if it's something I have up there, I'm not sure whether it is or isn't but When you're trying to do all the things I'm doing all sometimes you Exactly where you were the last time you put your foot down.

So I do have a clip to play from the debate and I was extremely pleased with with how the debate went and it was. We had a completely full audience completely full room and in fact, I would say I'm not sure how many people ended up in the overflow area, but we had a decent a really decent group there and It was.

It was a long debate. We got done. I would say just a few minutes before midnight. And we started at 730. So that really was two debates that we were doing and they were of course related. But I'm glad we did it that way.

It was I think it's better to do it the way we did it then to have like 40 minute opening statements and all the rest of that stuff. I think it was a little bit better To have it move along a little bit faster not The you know, super long opening statements and long rebuttals and long cross-ex and so on so forth.

I think we got more accomplished that way and I I was a little surprised at At Shabir's presentation. I was not certain. I just did not know why. From the first time that I had raised to Shabir the issue of doing this subject that he insisted that We before we would debate whether Muhammad is found in the Old Testament that we had to debate whether Jesus was found in the New Testament.

I Had assumed that the reasoning for that would be that He wanted to establish that well Christians use this kind of interpretation of these texts and So now I'm going to use the same kind of interpretation of these texts to see Muhammad.

That's not what he did. And I was surprised at that. I had spent a fair amount of time Putting together what I think was a pretty decent presentation on What I thought would be the key Texts the key Prophecies the Old Testament that would be most relevant especially Deuteronomy 18 15 through 19 and Psalm 2 Psalm 22 Isaiah 9 Isaiah 53.

These the ones that I primarily focused on as well as the Malachi 3 text preparing the way of the Lord and by the way, and I apologize to Rick I haven't gotten to it yet. I'll try to do it as soon as I can.

Hopefully someone channel can remind me I need to blog today a New book that we are offering. I'll behold your King by William Webster was very helpful to me. It's an excellent book on the prophetic passages in the New Testament that prophesied the coming of Jesus and I will admit that Even though I I really felt that should bear is responsive Okay Tation were very weak.

Basically, all he did was take the opportunity to start trying to attack the inerrancy of the Bible by presenting standard alleged allegations of synoptic errors standard stuff like well Jesus is coming back immediately didn't so therefore I can't believe what the Bible says about Jesus or stuff from the genealogies of Jesus or things like that.

And I was a little surprised by that he actually in fact I I can imagine the We're a little bit confused as to where he was going because in essence what he said was well Is Jesus prophesied in the Old Testament?

Yes or no? Yes, and no. And I'm I'm like yes and no and then he would start getting hold of the You know liberal redaction Informed critical sources and quote a quote a sentence from this one and quote something from this one.

And and what should be is he strings together? Factoids. That he calls from his reading of liberal theologians, and he strings them together in a way that no liberal theologian are strong them together.

That's that's something thumbs. I think he needs to think about is If he's putting stuff together that no one else has ever put together. Why does he think we should find that in any way compelling even even granting that we would even start to to give much weight?

To the sources that he's citing anyways, I'm sorry, but quoting Rudolf Bultmann to me Wasn't impressive when I was a student at Fuller Theological Seminary, and it's even less impressive today. So anyway when he responded to the idea that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied Neil test well yes, and no I can see how you can see Jesus in this and you know he makes a compelling case, but so what about these other things and For Shabir, and I noticed this in his 2005 debate with Anish Rosh, and he did it again on Monday evening.

First Shabir if you just assert Something often enough at the end of the debate you can say we have proven. We have shown we have demonstrated. And so you can quote one particular source, and that somehow will very quickly grow into an absolutely assured result of Christian scholarship.

Even if no one even in what he calls Christian scholarship. Which he must use the widest possible definition of that and I kept challenging him that over and over again. Which even in Christian scholarship no one has taken it to mean what?

The Shabir Ali has taken it to me and It's just it's frustrating to debate along those lines. But I'm glad to have the opportunity of doing so because I think that for a long time Shabir's Prowess in this area was that he was debating people.

Who didn't go to Fuller Theological Seminary? You know I Sometimes I think back over my career at Fuller. At least I was in the extension of Phoenix extension, so we had a little bit more conservative professors.

But still it was still fuller and so I was exposed to a wide variety of material. And there was times. I just did not enjoy that there were times when You know I was really wishing I could have been in a class with people of a similar viewpoint and stuff like that.

It would have been very helpful. Now I see in hindsight many years later Twelve years after graduating from seminary. That that was part of God's preparation because when Shabir Ali starts quoting these people man been there done that got the t-shirt you know I've told the story before but we have newly new listeners.

I Remember a class I took from professor. I had six different classes with him, so I liked the professor he was a good professor, but he was a good bit to my left and and He was in the introduction of the class it was a penitent.

He held up the commentaries that we had had to purchase for the class and what we had to do. Was we had to read these commentaries and write a positive negative thing we had to review the commentary and then it give our Positive points are negative points interact with the text which is pretty common.

Well he held up von Rotz Gerhard von Rotz commentary on Deuteronomy from Westminster press as I recall sort of yellowish hardback and I remember him very clearly saying in that first class that in this opinion in his opinion This was the best commentary on Deuteronomy in English.

So his his viewpoint is that stuff's good. Well of course I read it and It is you know a thoroughgoing Form of reaction criticism and all the rest that stuff and so when I wrote my review of it In the positive section I had one statement This book has an excellent binding and then I started the negative section.

And at least back then. Since I had clearly read the book I had read it in depth and I had interacted with it on a meaningful level. I Was not punished. I in fact got a I believe a 98 on that review and got one of the highest grades in the class.

But I don't know if that would be the case any longer. But it was at that time you weren't punished for being a conservative as long as you interacted with what was being said you just didn't have a knee-jerk reaction to to these things and so.

That that was that was my experience at the time in in attending fuller theological seminary. So I'm used to these things and I'm accustomed to the people that that Shabir is quoting. I kept asking Shabir questions concerning have you read some of the Scholars who write on these these texts but they do some of from a conservative perspective that they they don't feel the need to chop the text up into pieces and to assume multiple authors and all the rest of stuff and He basically had not see clearly did not have much of a of a use for those people.

And so Shabir does remind me a lot of the standard liberals in in Christianity. That do not even think that conservatives have anything meaningful to say and they do not interact their writings. Conservatives interact with the writings of liberals.

Liberals do not interact with the writings of conservatives and You know, that's that's how that how that works. So what I'd like to do is yeah, I I Have a p .m. Window up and I don't don't see anything for some reason.

Oh, okay. I got it now for some reason. Oh you moved If you pinged out or something, but that's why I lost you. So, all right. Thank you for letting me know that we have a call. I'll try to create this window again, and hopefully this time Your your Nick won't change and I can keep up with you here.

The Cross-Examination and the Charge of Double Standards

So Let's Hold on on the on the Good. All right. Let's hold on on the call. I'll go to Joshua in just a moment, but let's listen to a portion of Shabir Ali cross-examining me and then me across examining Shabir.

The little battery in my Camera died right toward the end lost about two minutes at the end. So we don't have the whole thing, but let's listen to that and then we'll take the phone call and hopefully this will come through fairly clear for you.

Now let me just stop it just there for a moment. I Posted this morning and I put it on the blog. The argument especially as he will develop it a little bit later in Pretty much in his closing statement.

He sort of develop it develops its fully and in essence. What should be is doing is he's he's attempting to defend himself against my charge that he's using double standards because it's very clear that he is he applies one set of standards to the Bible and What was one set of standards?

The Quran so that has explained this evidently in his own thinking and let's see if you can follow this. Basically what he's saying is is that if I believe the Christians that I am to question or reject Muhammad and the Quran and I believe in God because of Muhammad and the Quran.

Then what I need to do Is if I reject that then I automatically become an agnostic or an atheist and That's why I can use the worldview and the reasoning of an agnostic or an atheist and examining Christianity and rejecting Christianity that's why I can quote the Jesus seminar and and that's why I can quote these these ultra liberals who likewise do not believe in the Quran is because If I Abandoned Muhammad and the Quran that I become an agnostic or an atheist and so I then have to examine Christianity.

But he says an agnostic or an atheist. I Never heard such reasoning before in my life. I will confess and I don't find it to be reasoning at all and It's fairly obvious why as I pointed out in the blog.

First of all, it could be used against his own position. From his perspective if I as a Christian would become a Muslim and then that would mean that I would have to reject What we believe about Jesus Christ.

That means I would have to have a reason for doing so which means I'd have to use the same kind of worldview on my own scriptures to come to conclusion these scriptures are unreliable and if I already have adopted that worldview then I would also have to apply it to the Quran and of course those same scholars find the Quran to be a work of Redaction and editing and question the existence of Muhammad etc, etc.

So it wouldn't lead me to becoming a Muslim this kind of thinking just says we all would be better off. I'm pretty much stuck in the position of agnosticism or atheism. So on that level it doesn't work.

But it clearly does not follow that if what I'm asking him to do and abandoning the Quran and Muhammad is to become an agnostic. What I'm saying is if he's a consistent Supernaturalist if he's a consistent individual who believes that God has spoken and that in his speaking God has revealed himself.

That would be like saying To him to a Mormon. You need to abandon belief in the Book of Mormon. It is not a revelation of Jesus Christ. It is not from God Etc. Etc. And that somehow what that means is that you have to become an atheist After being a Mormon before you can then become a Christian, I Know I don't think so.

Doesn't doesn't follow This whole idea of well, the only reason I believe in God is because Muhammad the Quran tells me so. It's a troubling statement. I would think for a Muslim to make is that really the only reason you believe in God is Because did no one have a reason to believe in God before Muhammad in the Quran.

Why. Why did people believe in God before Muhammad the Quran. I don't happen to find Muhammad's arguments for the existence of God if we Can even call them that to be overly compelling. So I don't even get this idea that.

Well, if I question Muhammad My worldview will have to become that of an agnostic. That's not a given at all. That's that's not the case and none of this in any way Substantiates the obvious double standard that should be Raleigh and all Muslims I've met so far Utilize in using one kind of scholarship one set of standards in the Bible and a completely different set of standards for their own text this is a Very interesting insight into a way of thought.

But it I don't find to be overly compelling in any way shape or form. We'll continue with that clip, but let's Let's actually I miss play about another five minutes. We'll take our break and then we'll go come out of the break and we'll take Joshua on the phone.

I think I want to give him enough time and and I've already got 225 on my clock. So we'll just go a few more minutes on this and then we'll we'll take our phone call. Now there's a there's the point right there is he's trying to establish this idea that well the reason That we Do this the reason that we? believe in the existence of God Is because of X Y Z because of Muhammad the Quran and therefore if you ask us to abandon that He's he's trying to to build his case here through the cross-examination, which I found interesting because Really he's not responding to the rebuttal that I presented of His attempts on the paraclete and so on so but he sees that what he has to try to do is rehabilitate himself in light of the citation I had made of himself complaining that Robert Maury was using double standards that Robert Maury needs to figure out which hat he's going to wear whether the Christian hat or the Western scholar hat and of course what Shabir has done over the past 12 years since then has been to The exact same thing that he accused Robert Maury of.

I mean, I just don't see any way around that. And that's the clip that's currently on the blog that I put up last evening so we're gonna go ahead and take our break and then Talk with the Joshua and come back with Burke Hall's here on the divine line.

We'll talk to you later.

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Support for the Ministry and a Call to Continue the Clip

And welcome back to the dividing line on a Wednesday afternoon unusual time. But that's because I'm on the road and I am speaking in Raleigh Durham starting tomorrow evening debate with dr Zulfikar Ali Shah and then speaking at the battle for the truth conference.

We have some new items for you that you probably want to be taking note of on the blog and One of those is Bill Webster's book I mentioned earlier and I also blogged the New Testament textual commentary with comfort a few days ago.

And I'm sort of thinking that it's about that time of year that you might be looking at getting some stuff for your your fellow.

Christian geeks. Now I'm back here in the studio. I hope we've got a good connection here. But I also wanted to point out that something we haven't had a chance to put up there. We've put in the in the shopping cart.

We're currently taking pre-orders for a projected December 1st re-release of is the Mormon my brother. And we've got an awesome price on that book right now, too and so we want to take as many many orders before the book actually ships it out to us as we possibly can.

And One of the things I really loved about that book is that not only does it it in its day? Lay out a case that is actually mushroomed in our day. And that is the the major push for accepting Mormonism as Just another Christian religion is just another denomination.

We need to all focus on the things we have in common rather than the things we have in different. But when you when you read is the more of my brother as I recall over a hundred pages are dedicated to the person of God and who God is and For the the believer today.

That is an issue that for a lot of folks is really lacking just in the fact that we could read this book in contrast to A religion that has a hundred and eighty degrees diametrically opposed position on the subject with us.

You can learn a lot about defending your faith and being able to establish and present the the one true God of the Bible.

Well, I'm glad that that's going to be available. I certainly it's could be great to see that and should mention that we I haven't heard back from Calvary press yet, but I did get all the work on the second edition of the Potter's freedom in and We're going to be looking at The second edition of the King James only controversy coming up to so a lot of good stuff there and the people I know have been asking about the videos of these debates.

That's out of our control. What we're seeing on the blog is from my little Casio camera, that's the thickness of about five credit cards about the same size so There's not much we can do about that. We're not not able to control that the professional recorded videos will be sent to us and we'll make those available in time as well, but Lots of good stuff coming up on the on the blog and Materials available and so I hope that you do realize that you know, sometimes folks will come in the channel Hey, I just got your book at Amazon, you know, and I'm like great fine.

Wonderful. Any reason didn't get from us? Yeah, it was 25 cents more. Like well, I I hope I hope you you like the dividing line hope we can keep it going without your support Because people need to realize that when you get those materials from us you're helping us to be able to continue to do this it Doesn't happen for free.

We don't have big big people with big pockets that make this happen. We've got to meet our needs so If you can get what you want to get from us that's going to help us to continue to do What we do through the ministry, so we very much appreciate The support that you provide to us.

Let's go ahead and see if we can take our first phone call and talk with Joshua about the debate with Shabbir Ali. Joshua, are you there?

Yes, sir, you sound good. All right. Sorry about kind of that's a very long cold very. Basically from what it sounded attempt at a novel. So it doesn't have it doesn't have the. It sounds like he's trying to respond to you.

Well.

Actually, I don't know where Shabbir is on those things. I know that he was criticized For in essence adopting a view so or tomorrow Is an idea of middle knowledge and which he clearly just sort of borrowed from William Lane Craig and there were a number of Muslims who criticized him and saying look that's That that's just not even within the pale of possibility.

He wrote some articles on it and things like that, you know Shabbir is up there in Toronto, Canada. He's not exactly in the midst of the most conservative Ways of thought even amongst the Muslims and I did talk with some Muslims I won't mention any names, but I did talk with some Muslims up there who quite honestly just dismissed him as a liberal even though they're in the audience that night they they just sort of said ah, well Shabbir is just a liberal and I'm not sure exactly what makes him a liberal but we have to keep in mind There's some major differences between these various groups and how they see things.

So He's trying to respond to the criticism of his epistemology. But I I don't know that he has really come to final conclusions on that himself the fact that he is Willing to even listen to a William Lane Craig's defense of middle knowledge and try to bring that into Islam, I don't know that it's even possible to do it, of course, but the fact that he's done so certainly is is rather interesting to me and I did get the feeling from talking with Shabbir this time That in fact, I even I even quipped once that I'm gonna start bringing conservative commentaries because I gave him two very nice books during the course of each debate will one in each debate and I said, I'm gonna start bringing some good commentaries for you to read because he's always reading the bad stuff and so anyway.

So yeah, I did not find it to be a consistent Understanding even even from a Islamic perspective for that matter, but that's what he decided to do with the entirety of his cross-examination was to try to rehabilitate his his Consistency because I think he's really been challenged on that I think I'm not the only one who has challenged him on that and I think it's a real problem for him.

Yeah.

Like I said, I don't think it was consistent at all. But it almost sounded like he was trying to respond to you. He just didn't have the um, yeah.

Yeah, I mean I can see how a Muslim might try to develop some form of a transcendental argument at least in regards to the existence of God, but given the Methodology especially that Greg Bonson would have promoted in regards to providing internal critique of the other system He's just Islam does not provide a coherent enough position And a coherent enough revelation to allow for that kind of of a critique because again he has to he has to violate his own standards he has to use a set of Standards for me that he won't allow to be used for himself.

And that's that's the real problem. So Most definitely. All righty, sir. All right. I appreciate it. Thank you much. Okay. Thank you very much for calling. Hope you're feeling better. Eight seven seven seven five three.

Three three four one is the phone number. Just had someone to ask, you know, what commentaries would you recommend? What would you give to Shabir Ali? Well for example It does not seem to me as if he has been exposed to almost any kind of in-depth Exegesis especially of the New Testament and so Now again You give Shabir anything and you're you're running the risk of him utilizing that information out of context and things like that.

I understand that but For example, dr. Knight's commentary on the pastoral epistles is just a classic and It is just so wonderfully In depth and yet it's it's orthodox and and all sorts of things like that.

And so I'm now I'm getting phone calls while doing the radio program. I'll just hope that whoever that is will will call me back when we're done. But anyway Materials like that would would be extremely useful.

Commentary on Hebrews by by Hughes would be very useful. Some of the older commentaries as well if they'd be willing to look at them that are that are based upon a consistent worldview. Such as that, you know, even Calvin's commentaries would be it would be excellent along those lines.

Obviously there You know our commentaries. Obviously there are commentaries that you don't want to necessarily give to somebody and You don't want to utilize You know liberal commentaries already got plenty of those as it is but Those would be some of the commentaries that I would suggest those that model how to do in-depth exegesis and do it consistently and do it in a way that Does not shred the text but actually honors the text would be a Good direction to go there.

Presuppositional Critique of Liberal Exegesis and the Authority of Scripture

Let me go ahead and continue with the clip. It's just just a few more minutes to play here. You Catch that it might be to the point where you might be tuning it out a little bit but Ignoring the evidence what evidence see for Shabir the theories that redaction critical scholars use are evidence and So if you don't just dwell upon these Hypotheticals based upon the idea that whatever the text is it can't be what it claims to be it has to be something else and so now we get to speculate as To the the way that it came into the form that it's in we get to speculate about later Redactors and we don't have to have any kind of evidence to back ourselves up here.

We just need to be able to argue a case and the case will always be dependent upon The idea that the text cannot be harmonized because it's not Supernatural in nature you start there. It can't be supernatural in nature.

You start with that and then reason forward. That's evidence Shabir now here Again, we have to go. Okay, but Shabir you don't accept that with the Quran. You don't allow us To just without evidence say that sir, Abaqa da is is a collation of disconnected incoherent Materials that have been brought together into one form specifically to substantiate a particular Groups claim to power or things like that.

There are people who say that but Shabir doesn't accept that and he doesn't do so presuppositionally so See the inconsistency there's there's the point he he says will they ignore this evidence? So if they don't function on this kind of of liberal basis, then they're quote-unquote Ignoring evidence.

Well, no, they're not ignoring evidence. They're just not functioning on an unbelieving Foundation in regards the examination of Scripture they That worldview to be convincing. It's certainly not the worldview of the authors and therefore to bring a worldview that is different than that of the authors to bear upon the text Requires a presuppositional problem begin with and yet should be reviews.

Use these things as evidence. We need to define our term. Now, you know Shabir has said this so many times he doesn't seem to realize that I'm challenging the very foundation of what he's saying. Scholars have noted some scholars have theorized based upon a Theoretical idea of a construction of the Gospel of John for which they have no evidence.

But they theorize that if it was written in a certain way Then one theory for the way it could have been written would be this. Well, there's as many different theories as our form reduction criticism critics to write these theories.

But but he says well Christian scholars do this and Christian scholars do that and basically, you know by end of this. Well, you're not a Christian scholar. Well, you know sadly He's he's representing very well and using very very well what I would call the fifth column The the fact that there is so much Unbelieving Christian academia out there.

Where you have people who are or just simply ashamed of the Bible as it stands. Because it is a scandal to the human mind. It's the modern human mind the humanistic mind. You know, I I was struck in my study of the prophecies of the coming of Jesus how many people there are in Quote-unquote Christian academia who are embarrassed at what the Bible actually teaches there are a lot of naturalistic materialists with with PhDs and They're they're embarrassed.

They're embarrassed to believe that that God would have revealed these things that long ago there they're embarrassed that. That you have to believe in the supernatural. They they're they're much more influenced by The worldview around us than they are about about by the Christian worldview and He's he lives and breathes within that milieu.

I guess is what we are seeing here He didn't get that. In fact, I'm gonna challenge him to say is it where did I ever say I accepted those things? He didn't get that what I'm challenging is the underlying worldview issue.

Now that I would apply the same standards to the Orientalist and say, okay. These are interesting observations. They may or may not be true, but I don't just simply accept them without a worldview examination of the consistency that brought them about.

And she bears does not hear that. He just not does not hear when when someone says that and and he doesn't grasp it. So obviously this this debate will be available as soon as we can get hold of it and You know doing as many debates we're doing as quickly as we're doing them.

Obviously is going to be a bit of a challenge for the folks who process all of this material and make it available even to us To get it out to you. So we will clearly do it as quickly as we possibly can and Get stuff available.