June 17, 2020 Show with Mack Tomlinson on “Every Relationship Made Right”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 17th day of June, 2020.

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And today is day number two of two days of interviews this week that we are conducting with Mack Tomlinson.

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He is an author, a conference speaker, and pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

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And today, we are going to be addressing every relationship made right. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Mack Tomlinson.

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Hi, Chris. Good to be back with you today again. Great. And I'm going to give our email address out right away for our listeners, if they want to join us with their own questions.

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It's chrisarnzen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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And please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. And as always, if you could provide our listeners, especially for the sake of those who have not yet heard you on the program, provide for our listeners information about Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

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Yeah, we're a congregation of about 200 people here in Denton, which is a university city about 120 ,000, 30 miles north of Dallas -Fort

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Worth Metroplex. And we're a loving congregation. We are led by a plurality of wonderful elders, one of which

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I'm a part with four other wonderful men. And we're just seeking to spread the light of the glorious gospel of our

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Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And so we welcome anyone to visit us ever who is in or near Denton.

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And we welcome all people who are looking for a solid biblical church in the

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Dallas -Fort Worth area to come visit us. Great. And if anybody wants more information, you can look them up at ProvidenceDenton .org.

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ProvidenceDenton .org. And as I say every time I have Pastor Mac on the program, please pray for my oldest brother

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John, who lives about 10 minutes from Pastor Mac Tomlinson. He is not a believer, and he has critical stage emphysema.

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And I'm hoping that he will welcome another visit from Pastor Mac, and that the

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Lord really takes a solid root in his heart and gives him a new heart of flesh, that I may know that he will be spending an eternity with Christ and will be able to rejoice in that after the

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Lord chooses to take my brother John away from this planet. So I'm asking my listeners to please pray for John, my oldest brother, and hoping to hear good news one day from Pastor Mac and also from my brother

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John himself about what the Lord has done. Well, today you wanted to talk about every relationship made right.

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Can you tell us exactly why this was burdening your heart that led you to want to speak on this today?

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Well, yes. Basically what I mean about the phrase, every relationship made right,

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I'm talking about the biblical reality of believers needing to keep their relationships proper, healed, not damaged, not fractured.

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But we know because of sin that many relationships are fractured and damaged.

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And it's so easy for people, because they're wounded or hurt or bitter, to say,

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I've just got to move on. I can't deal with them ever again. I'm just going to walk with the

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Lord and leave them alone. But as real as hurt and woundedness is, the

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New Testament calls us to a different standard if we're Christians. So I'll give you an example.

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Years ago, I know a couple far from where I live, and one of their children had, against parents' counsel, had eloped, married someone that was problematic.

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And it so hurt the mother in the family that she and the child were alienated for years, wouldn't speak to one another, and even the husband was caught in the middle.

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So much so that the wife took a position until that child totally repents.

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I won't even talk to them, and I don't want you to go even meet with them.

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And so this went on several years. And I was a part of their life. I wasn't their pastor.

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But I began to make an appeal when I could. I said, look, this can be improved.

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You've got to open up communication lines. And the wife didn't want to. But the more the husband listened to my appeal lovingly, because we were good friends, he realized they had to take a step of communication.

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Well, long story short, finally he persuaded his wife to let him go see the adult child.

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And it led to a full reconciliation. And now the family is in harmony all because they were willing to forgive and finally move toward reconciliation.

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You know, we've all heard or felt this. We've heard it from others.

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We've felt it ourselves. Someone hurts us or sins against us.

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And we say this. Well, they said they were sorry, but now they've hurt me 10 or 15 times.

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I don't know what to do. I don't trust them. I'm tired of being hurt by them every time

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I try. Nothing seems to change. They never change. And I just get angrier.

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I don't even know what to do. This is common across our land, both in the church and outside of the church in family relationships.

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There are fractured relationships everywhere. And I believe the

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New Testament tells us that fracture doesn't have to continue if people will believe and apply, by God's grace, what the

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New Testament actually tells us to endeavor to do. Well, it's so wonderful that that story had a great ending to it.

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You always love to hear about the Lord doing unexpected things and repairing damaged relationships and so on.

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Well, that is a story that had a good ending. We know there are many that aren't.

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I want to talk about today the issue of forgiveness and the goal of reconciliation, because they're not exactly the same thing, but they can't be separated from one another.

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Forgiveness is the willingness to forgive others of their offenses toward us, but reconciliation ought to be the goal of that.

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But reconciliation doesn't always happen always.

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It doesn't always happen, and it doesn't always happen quickly. Because when

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I get into talking about reconciliation, we know there are cases where reconciliation is not simply possible because of various factors.

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But forgiveness is always possible, and if it can lead to reconciliation, all the better.

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So, shall I just begin to get into this, Chris, now, and you can let me know when you go to a break?

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Yeah, sure. Go ahead. Well, we all know this world and the church is filled with fractured relationships, broken relationships, broken friendships, because of sin, because of offenses given and taken, because of emotional hurt and woundedness where people are wounded deeply.

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And the landscape of our churches and families in this nation is just covered with unforgiveness.

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And as a result, relationships where reconciliation is not even attempted because people simply are not willing to try to even approach reconciliation.

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And these two topics of forgiveness and reconciliation, the New Testament speaks volumes on these.

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These two issues are very big in Jesus' teaching and if you read

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Peter's epistles, John's epistles, it's there in very firm, clear ways as well.

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So I'd like to kind of unpack for us today these two big topics kind of in a summary form.

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There's actually an excellent book called Unpacking Forgiveness, by the way, by Chris Braun.

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Yeah, well, there's marvelous books on forgiveness by good authors. We need to make sure it's a sound good author.

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Yeah, Chris Braun is a Reformed Baptist. It's a very excellent book. And of course there are differences of opinion even in the

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Reformed church over forgiveness. We do have a major division on it and two of the major figures that disagree are

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J. Adams and John MacArthur. J. Adams believes that repentance is necessary for forgiveness to be extended to somebody who's offended you and that does not mean, according to Dr.

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Adams, that we are to hate anyone, hold grudges, withhold goodness, withhold prayer, withhold love, and we should always be ready to stand with extended arms to forgive.

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But he believes that those things are not the same thing as forgiveness. And then John MacArthur believes we're supposed to forgive everyone even if they never ask us to and even if they never repent.

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So there is a major division amongst even Reformed Christians over this. Right. Well, I think, you know, the opinions are strong and they're varied and I really think the beginning place is not just to read the opinions of those good men but to just read what the

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New Testament actually says and let our theology of forgiveness be built on the words of the

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New Testament primarily. Now I'll just admit at the beginning I would agree more with Dr.

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MacArthur than Dr. Adams simply because of this.

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If we're only to forgive those who have repented then there will be people who have wronged us that we'll never forgive.

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What about those who are dead who hurt us? What about those who are still dangerous people?

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That if we went to them to try to extend forgiveness it would be unwise, it could be dangerous.

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So there's a lot of scenarios that people are unrepentant or unavailable and if we can't extend forgiveness from our hearts before the

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Lord and tell Him I'm not going to hold that against Him anymore then we're still going to have real emotional, spiritual struggles.

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So that's where I'm coming from. I believe Dr. Adams' view is more limited than it should be and I do honestly believe

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Dr. MacArthur's position is a healthier one and more broadly balanced biblically.

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So let's just kind of begin to define the terms. Let's look at forgiveness and then the relationship later of forgiveness and reconciliation.

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Forgiving others is very clear in the New Testament. Matthew 6,

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Mark 11, Matthew 18 and other places, Colossians 3. Forgiveness is an immediate command to forgive from the heart.

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But reconciliation is not always going to be immediate or even possible.

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But it should be a biblical goal. In other words, Chris, if I've sinned against you and you forgive me from your heart and if I'm safe and willing to be reconciled to you you should be with a forgiving heart willing to reconcile with me.

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And we'll unpack a little bit what reconciliation means. It doesn't mean become close friends again.

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It does not mean that the relationship will be the same that it was. It simply means to deal with our differences and come to terms of peace.

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It doesn't even mean that the relationship necessarily will continue. But we came to terms of peace.

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Now any time these two words, reconciliation or forgiveness are even mentioned or are preached on in the church everyone present they apply to.

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Because everyone has been damaged and hurt by others. Everyone struggles to forgive some things.

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And many of us are afraid to be reconciled to relationships that have hurt us even if it would be safe to reconcile with them.

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And so we also when we hear the words our mind immediately has three or four reasons why we shouldn't or cannot forgive or why we cannot consider that the goal of reconciliation would be right.

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So why do we recoil at forgiving others or considering reconciliation?

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Why do we have pushback? Simply put we've been hurt. The woundedness can be deep.

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And I'm talking about I talked to a lady this morning that was and she doesn't live here where I live but she was sexually and physically and emotionally abused by a pastor and by her father when she was a little girl.

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And she is free of that. And she doesn't want any kind of reconciled relationship.

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I don't know if those men are gone now but she's free because she forgave.

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But the big hill to climb is will I be willing to forgive and cancel the debt even though I still feel wounded and even though I don't feel forgiving.

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So this is a big issue but we have to face it if we're Christians because of the teaching of our

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Lord Jesus Christ. So shall I go on?

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Oh yes. Alright. So I just want people to note there are some central key passages in the

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New Testament. Anyone struggling with this or that's unclear on this they should just note these and look them up and read the passages in the context in which the teaching is.

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Matthew chapter 6 verses 12 through 15. Mark 11, 25 and 26.

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And then Matthew 18. So Matthew is the great gospel writer that deals more thoroughly with forgiving others than any other of the gospels.

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So let me just read and people can kind of let this sink in today and it's certainly worth a re -read later.

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But in the Sermon on the Mount of course our Lord gets to the issue of forgiving others and He connects it to our being forgiven by our own

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Father in Heaven. He says in verse 12 of Matthew 6 forgive us our trespasses even as we forgive those who trespass against us.

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So there Christ is teaching us to pray and ask our Father for forgiveness but He connects it to our forgiving others.

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And then He says it even in a stronger way two verses later. 6, 14.

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For if you forgive men their trespasses your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.

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But if you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your Father forgive their trespasses.

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So we could do all kinds of gymnastics with this to explain it away but it's very clear that Jesus connects our

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Father forgiving us of our sins when we sin with our willingness to forgive others their trespasses against us.

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Now that's a major element that you've included in there our willingness because obviously there may be hundreds of people that we've never forgiven because we've forgotten about them.

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We've forgotten that they have sinned against us. We've forgotten that there has been a dispute, etc.

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Right, and we can't remember all those and this passage doesn't tell us to go back and remember them and rehearse them, no.

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In fact it doesn't even say if you are not willing to forgive men their trespasses it says if you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your

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Father in Heaven forgive our trespasses. So here I am. I'm holding a grudge against a brother.

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He offended me. He hurt me. Maybe he's in my church. I go to pray and seek the

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Lord and I've sinned maybe the night before in some way.

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It comes to my mind and I go to the Lord and I say, Father, I know that I sinned and I just need to make it right with you.

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And immediately the one I won't forgive comes to my mind. My conscience grips me and I realize how can

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I ask for forgiveness from my Father if I won't forgive my brother? And so that's what

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Jesus is doing here. He's making us see the seriousness of an unwillingness to forgive others by connecting it with our own needed forgiveness.

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Now you go on to Matthew. By the way, Mark 11, 25, and 26 it's basically a parallel but Mark says it a little different.

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He says in 25 and 26 of chapter 11, he says it this way.

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Whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him.

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All right, now think about that in relation to your opening question about the difference of viewpoints.

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This doesn't say anything about the person's repentance. It says when you are praying, if you remember that you have anything against anyone, forgive him.

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That's immediate responsibility. That's in your prayer closet. You forgive him from the heart.

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So that forgiveness toward that person is vertical toward God. You're having a forgiving heart.

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In order that, your Father in heaven may also forgive your trespasses. So those are two parallel passages right there.

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But perhaps the biggest chapter is Matthew 18, which is almost the whole chapter deals with forgiveness because Jesus teaches a big important parable on it.

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In the 18th chapter of Matthew, the

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Lord is teaching and he has talked about various things in that chapter.

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He's talking about that men need to humble themselves as little children. He's talking about the mortification of sin, cutting your hand off, plucking out your eye, etc.

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And then in verse 15 of Matthew 18, he gets into forgiveness. He says,

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Moreover, if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him.

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Well, let's just pause right there. How many Christians are unwilling to do that? They're offended.

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They're hurt. But they won't go to someone. They take up the offense.

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They're scared to do it. And they go on. They won't even do what Jesus said. But here we're told, go tell them and discuss it between you and him alone.

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If he hears you, that means if he not just listens, but really receives what you're saying, then you've gained your brother.

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There's the language of reconciliation. You've regained him. But then

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Jesus continues, of course, in the well -known church discipline issue. If reconciliation can happen, if that person won't hear you, you go with someone else in the church that every word can be established.

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And then ultimately, if he refuses to hear, it can become a matter of church discipline.

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So the extending of forgiveness or the lack of being willing to forgive can even get to the point of church discipline.

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And that's why Jesus here makes it so important. And then he moves on further later in the chapter to deal with this parable that many of us remember.

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It was a master who had two servants. Well, he had several servants.

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But one servant we know, let's just say the servant owed him a million dollars.

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He had invested money for the master and the servant for mismanagement or whatever owed the master a million dollars.

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He has complete inability to pay it. He goes and makes empty promises, you know, have mercy on me and I'll pay you all of it, which he never could have done.

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And the passage says an amazing thing in verse 27. It says the master of that servant was moved with compassion and here's what he did.

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He released him from the debt and forgave the debt. Now that verse shows us what true forgiveness means.

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It is the canceling of a debt that someone owes toward us.

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It's the canceling of an offense that they've done toward us. It's releasing them from the moral responsibility of how they sinned against us or hurt us.

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We forgive it. We cancel it in our minds. And so that's what that master did in compassion.

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He canceled the million dollar debt. The same servant we know goes out. He sees a fellow servant.

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So this is a horizontal level, man to man, human to human. Well, the other guy owes, the one who was forgiven, he owes him a hundred bucks.

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And he goes and grabs the guy and says, pay me what you owe. The guy says, I can't.

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Have mercy on me and I'll pay you everything. And the second guy could have probably.

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That's a payable debt. But the guy who was forgiven won't do it. He throws him in prison.

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And here's what Jesus taught in the parable. Verse 32 and following.

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Then his master, this caused grief. His fellow servant's soul had been done.

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They were very grieved. They came and told the master. The master called the first servant. You wicked servant.

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And here's the issue. I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.

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Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant just as I had pity on you?

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So Jesus says there, if we have been forgiven by our heavenly master, how in the world can we not forgive other human beings who've wronged us a lot less than we have sinned against God?

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And then Jesus closes that parable with this stern warning. So my heavenly father will also do to each of you.

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That is, you're in prison. You're in a prison of unforgiveness and you will not get out of it.

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So also will my heavenly father do to each of you if from your heart you do not forgive his brother his trespass.

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So these passages on forgiveness don't really speak about the repentance of a person being necessary first before we'll extend forgiveness.

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Sometimes that's right and sometimes that'll happen. But forgiveness from our hearts is before God to release and cancel a debt toward those who've wronged us.

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And we do have an anonymous listener who says,

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Pastor Mack, I am divorced and my ex -husband has been extraordinarily cruel to me and my children.

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This involves not only multiple betrayals and adultery and brutally physical beatings as well, not to mention constant ongoing verbal and insulting in writing as well that goes beyond the norm of what someone might say or write after an argument.

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This man, for lack of a better term, is satanic. He hates Christ and the church and everyone in it.

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How do I forgive this man in a practical way other than just saying to God and to him,

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I forgive you when his assaults upon me verbally and his assassination of my character verbally to our children are ongoing.

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How do I treat him as if this has stopped occurring? And how do

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I counsel my own children to be involved with him and what they are to do and how are they to treat him?

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Well, that's a very very serious and important question obviously and I will just have a brief comment.

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I don't have the ability probably we know we don't have the time to fully unpack that but we just acknowledge with compassion and sadness that this is so hard for her and we understand the severity of the woundedness the damage, the hurt and especially when there's any kind of ongoing contact and that behavior continues you're kind of helpless to stop it.

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I would say to the sister that you know, women aren't responsible to place themselves in danger of just continuing to be around that if they have a choice to not be but probably this sister is not describing that she has to to bear with it whether it's visitation of the children and so this really is out of her hands in a sense she knows she can't stop it she knows she has a father in heaven who has her back so to speak who will come to her defense and so I think such a person first of all has to really function with wisdom and cry out for wisdom and then they must call upon their heavenly father to come to battle for them to protect them to defend them and to fight this battle for them to control that other person because these attacks you know, we're not wrestling just with flesh and blood these are demonic things meant to attack us and tear down our faith as Jesus said you know he said about Peter Satan desired to have you then he may sift you as wheat but I prayed for you the

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Lord Jesus Christ is making intercession for this sister and and he's with her and and he's he's there in an increasing way to fight the battle so when there is no other human answer

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Christ as her great high priest and her her warrior captain is going to give grace to to go through this you know the only other thing

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I would say is that she should get as much support spiritually as she can a community of believers close trusted brothers and sisters in the faith who will keep things in confidence seeking the counsel of godly elders who will keep things confidential and be surrounded by supporting brethren that's the best thing

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I could say to this question and I would certainly call all of us who are listening to especially pray for her and even make a note your prayers can help this this dear one who's fighting this battle even if you don't know her name and we don't have to know her name because the

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Lord does well thank you Mac and thank you

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Anonymous and we hope that that has blessed you and you can contact me again later and I can refer you to books

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I can refer you to sermons I can refer you to pastors and churches if you don't have those that's of primary importance that you have a good solid biblical church where you are a member and where you have godly elders that you can count on for wise counsel and so on but thank you so much for contacting us with such a private and intimate question and we have to go to our first break right now if anybody would like to join us our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com don't go away we'll be right back after these messages

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Such is the beauty of his design Knowing that design how can we not erupt in praise to our great

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God like the psalmist did May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design

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Thank you Welcome back this is

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Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in our guest today is Mack Tomlinson and we are discussing the theme

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Every Relationship Made Right If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail dot com chrisarnzen at gmail dot com

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Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA We have a question from somebody obviously using a nickname

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We have Lam Lam in Valley Stream, Long Island, New York and she has a question or Lam Lam has a question

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I'm assuming it's a woman Sorry if that's a wrong assumption First of all

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I am grateful for Pastor Mack's advice and encouragement I totally agree with his view on forgiveness although that is difficult to do at times

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Refer to the other view I have a dear brother in Christ who holds that view as well and I believe he was holding a passage in Luke maybe chapter 17 verse 3 or other verses

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I would love to hear Pastor Mack about how to present a more complete view on which he and Pastor John hold in against that Luke passage held by the other view on forgiveness

43:16

Well I'm not I think

43:22

I understand the question What's the Luke passage? She thinks it's 17 verse 3

43:29

And while you're looking that up I will give our email address again If anybody else wants to join us our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com and as always give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

43:48

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter and obviously a conversation about this subject would lend itself very easily for people or to people who want to remain anonymous because there are many private and personal things that involve the restoration of relationships and relationships being made right and forgiveness and so on but are you ready to respond to our listener?

44:14

Yes I did turn to the Luke 17 passage verse 3

44:20

I think this is a great example for us to realize that scripture is the only best interpreter of scripture in other words if we read

44:33

Luke 17 3 which says take heed to yourselves if your brother sins against you rebuke him and if he repents forgive him if we just read that scripture and we would set up an absolute and say you only have to forgive if he repents then we're creating too narrow of a biblical definition because that's not the only verse that defines forgiveness in the

45:10

New Testament the one I referred to in Mark 11 25 -26 right in there also says if we're praying and we remember we have ought against a brother a brother against us right then forgive him it doesn't talk about repentance on that person's part so no one verse gives us the whole story or the whole theology about forgiveness if you just had

45:38

Luke 17 3 only then you could say yeah the

45:43

New Testament teaches that if they repent we forgive them but other verses don't just teach that that's part of the truth and I think the answer the application is if I'm in prayer and I remember

46:00

I have ought against a brother or he against me Mark 11 is a verse that applies in my particular scenario but here if my brother sins against me and I go rebuke him well if he repents

46:17

I forgive him but that doesn't imply or teach that I can withhold forgiveness generally if he doesn't receive my words so let's say he doesn't receive and he goes away okay therefore do

46:33

I have a willing do I have a right and a freedom to go away with an unforgiving heart nobody would say that that'd be right so I'm just saying we gotta compare all the scriptures on forgiveness with one another to have a full balanced biblical theology of forgiveness that's the best way

46:56

I could answer that and just for the sake of fairness since Dr.

47:02

Jay Adams is not here nor Chris Brons who also shares Dr. Adams who wrote a book about it as well and I don't want to have a debate with you throughout the entire program or anything like that but one of the strongest arguments that those who have the view that repentance is only extended

47:24

I mean, I'm sorry forgiveness is only extended to those that repent is that God forgives that way and if God were to forgive the way most

47:39

Christians define forgiveness that we are to forgive anyone for anything without any repentance or even a request for forgiveness then hell would be empty there would be no such place of eternal torment that's probably one of the most powerful arguments they have on their side and the other would be what is really occurring when you forgive an unrepentant person other than you assuring them that you're not holding ill will towards them that you are not going to retaliate with vengeance that you're going to pray for them that you're going to do good for them but Dr.

48:27

Adams and those that agree with him believe that you're supposed to be doing those things anyway because he does not believe that that is repentance it's something that accompanies not only repentance but should be flowing from the heart of a

48:40

Christian regardless of whether the person is forgiven or not but anyway then

48:46

I'll hold my peace about that issue I just thought I'd throw that up if you want to respond to that well

48:55

I think my only response is first of all I appreciate Jay Adams I've benefited from his ministry over the years

49:00

God has used him so these these great men Dr. MacArthur Dr.

49:07

Adams they have differing views we know many theologians pastors and teachers do

49:12

I guess I wonder though if those who teach that repentance is necessary before forgiveness can even happen are they implying that reconciliation is necessary for forgiveness to be extended and again there are many scenarios where it's impossible for repentance to be an action

49:43

I wouldn't say that they would believe that they're not here obviously but for instance let me give a brief example if a woman throughout her childhood is molested and raped repeatedly by her father for instance if this man is in prison and begs her for forgiveness she is obligated by the scriptures to forgive him but it doesn't require that she has some kind of ongoing close relationship with him right

50:24

I know you're right my question is the person let's say an abusive father um dies, abused a daughter the daughter grows up is converted comes to Christ and she's scarred and wounded and harbors bitterness against that dead father what's she to do with it is she to live with it?

50:55

there the gospel would call us to forgive from the heart and there there are effects, wonderful gospel effects of freedom and emotional healing that can come if we as Jesus said from the heart will forgive and we know that repentance is not possible in that scenario so I think we must leave it there that there's differing views but again what does the new testament directly teach comparing scripture with scripture unforgiving others and we see a multifaceted view of it in some situations there will be repentance on the part of the offender in other cases you're in your prayer closet and you remember a relational problem right then you're supposed to forgive from the heart that Jesus taught so there's varying layers of truth to this to give us a full biblical doctrine of forgiving others and we have to go to our midway break right now thank you

52:09

Lam Lam for your excellent question the midway break is the longer break folks so please be patient Grace Life Radio requires of us a longer break in the middle of our show because they are required by the

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FCC to air their own public service announcements and local announcements that localize

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Iron Trump and Zion Radio to Lake City Florida while they do that we air our globally heard commercial so please use this time wisely write down as much of the information as you can provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them which will hopefully further ensure they will remain our advertisers which will subsequently further ensure that we will remain on the air because we depend upon our advertisers financial support to exist so please do that and also write down questions for Mac Tomlinson and send them to chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com don't go away we are going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the rich blessings of our Sovereign Lord God. This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the rich blessings of our Sovereign Lord God. This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the rich blessings of our Sovereign Lord God. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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Iron Sherpens Iron Radio Before I return to Mack Tomlinson I just have a couple of other announcements in fact, one of them involves

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Mike Gadosh of Solid Ground Christian Books he is our guest tomorrow here on Iron Sherpens Iron Radio so you don't want to miss that and also on Friday we've got an excellent program that I am sure will be a blessing to all of you it's going to feature two guests excellent guests if I do say so myself the first hour we have for the very first time ever on this program

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Oz Guinness world -renowned Christian author and social critic who will address his book

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Fool's Talk Recovering the Art of Christian Persuasion the second hour we will feature somebody who's been on this program many times that's

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Gary DeMar President of American Vision who will be addressing Greg L.

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Bonson's book which he has brought back into print which Gary has brought back into print Against All Opposition Defending the

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Christian Worldview so mark that on your calendars for this Friday June 19th 4 to 6 p .m.

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Eastern and please folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear as always, as I try to remember to urge you please go to IronSherpensIronRadio .com

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and put I need a church in the subject line that is also the email address where you can send a question for Mac Tomlinson chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com and give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter we do have a question from Mark in Baton Rouge Louisiana and Mark is going to be singing to the choir here because he's asking a question of Pastor Mac and Pastor Mac agrees with the premise of his question so I'll just read it anyway if repentance is always required as a prerequisite for forgiving others then why does

01:15:29

God freely forgive us from all unrighteousness as it says in 1 John chapter 1 verse 9 when we can't possibly remember all our sins that we have sinned against him many of those forgiven sins will be forgiven without me remembering them let alone repenting of them individually want to respond to that even though you already agree with it well that is perfect logic and Mark is right there's no question about it that's absolutely true when we come to Christ we can't remember and name off and specifically feel sorry for every sin of the past totally impossible when

01:16:16

Christ died for us he bore all of them and when we come to him we come in simple dependent faith but we aren't able to confess all those specifically and so Mark is totally right in that logic and one thing we need to remember too we can't compare

01:16:43

God's forgiveness in the gospel with human forgiveness God's forgiveness in the gospel was judicial because the death of Christ actually was a judicial atoning sacrifice that paid for the sins and therefore on the basis of that perfect atonement

01:17:09

God freely forgives us if we simply turn to him and we know it's a repentant heart but person to person forgiveness is not judicial in the sense of atoning ours is not a propitiation for sins and so we are simply to forgive because we've been forgiven not on the basis of the other person's perfect performance it reminds me of Colossians 3 .13

01:17:47

bearing with one another and forgiving one another if anyone has a complaint against another now that's that's brushing with a broad brush that's comprehensive if anyone has a complaint against another person we are to bear with one another and forgive one another hell even as Christ forgave so you also must do but before we move on I want to go back something came to my mind during the break of the previous listener that sent in that important question that difficult question about the demonic satanic behavior of their ex and they just didn't know it's ongoing and they just don't know what to do right yeah still there

01:18:44

Chris? Oh yes I said right yeah this came to my mind after the question

01:18:53

Jesus forgave his enemies and prayed forgiveness toward the

01:18:59

Father toward those enemies and we have no evidence whatsoever of how many of those enemies at the foot of the cross were converted and were forgiven later we know that it's very possible a number of them were but it's wrong logic or wrong presupposition to presume that God forgave all of them because Christ prayed for the forgiveness so that was forgiveness he was expressing toward the

01:19:32

Father and he was in a situation that he couldn't do anything about those enemies so to the listener earlier

01:19:44

I think God has almost given them the honor of being shut up to trust him alone now they do need the support around them

01:19:56

I'm not saying that but it brought to mind Jehoshaphat in 2nd

01:20:03

Chronicles 20 the Moabites and the Ammonites were coming against the children of Israel it was a great multitude coming against them and Jehoshaphat was afraid he knew their goose was cooked if God did not act and so he just turns to the

01:20:24

Lord and he begins to pray things like Lord are you not our God here they are here are my enemies you're our

01:20:34

God here's the enemies in verse 12 of 2nd Chronicles 20

01:20:42

I hope the listener is still listening because this could be a verse for her a life verse

01:20:51

Jehoshaphat prays O our God will you not judge them and that simply means

01:20:58

Lord will you not deal with this one who's coming against us Lord you deal with them you judge their sin and I'm not saying

01:21:09

I'm not saying we're praying for God to kill them I'm saying we ask God to do battle for us

01:21:15

Lord will you not judge them and then he says two things for we have no power against this multitude well that listener doesn't have power against the situation but her

01:21:28

Savior does so so three things in that verse verse 12 Lord will you not judge them and deal with them

01:21:36

I have no power against this and number three neither do

01:21:42

I know what to do but my eyes are on you that verse completely applies to that situation and God will go to battle for the person who is shipwrecked on the fact that God's the only one that can take care of such a situation and he will show himself mighty to such a person

01:22:08

Amen and just one brief note just so people don't have a misunderstanding about Dr.

01:22:18

Adams view again I have just to reiterate he and those that agree with him do not believe that we are to be cold hearted towards those that have sinned against us and like Jesus who in Matthew 23 37 cried out

01:22:39

Jerusalem Jerusalem who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her how often

01:22:48

I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings and you were unwilling there is to be a willingness by all

01:22:59

Christians to forgive those that have sinned against us there's got to be a reminder to them that you are out of even love for them in addition to primarily your love for God holding out your arms to them and so I just wanted to make sure that nobody had a misunderstanding about that point of view yeah very good point you know a

01:23:29

Christian can find grace to forgive others if they always remember the cross if I can say to myself if someone has hurt me even hurt me today

01:23:42

Lord if you have forgiven me of a such big sin

01:23:50

I can forgive the lesser I can forgive him I can give her and JC Raul he said this it is a sad fact that there are so few

01:24:03

Christian duties there are few Christian duties so little practiced as that of forgiveness so if Jesus has commanded it we should all ask ourselves am

01:24:17

I practicing forgiveness toward others in light of what I've been forgiven but one other author said this and it's quite thought provoking a

01:24:29

Christian will find it cheaper to pardon than to resent forgiveness saves us the expense of anger the cost of hatred and the waste of grief so it actually is better for us to forgive than to not forgive because we suffer through our lack of being willing to forgive by the way

01:24:56

Mark in Baton Rouge I don't know if you're a first time questioner I have a suspicion you are but if you are you have won a free

01:25:05

New American Standard Bible by virtue of the fact that you're a first time questioner if that's the case so make sure you get us your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com

01:25:17

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship you out a free New American Standard Bible and we thank the publishers of the

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NASB for providing these Bibles for our first time questioners and we thank cvbbs .com

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Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for shipping out those Bibles to the listeners that win them we have let's see here we have

01:25:41

Cynthia in Findley Ohio and Cynthia says in what sense was

01:25:51

Jesus asking on the cross Father forgive them for they know not what they do if they did not repent and were not converted how was the forgiveness applied and I'd like to add a question of my own to that to you because I'm not 100 % sure on this and I don't know if everybody in the church really at least the great minds of the church

01:26:17

I don't think that they're all in agreement over this but who exactly are the them that Jesus was referring to and if you want me to repeat

01:26:26

Cynthia's question I will well maybe yeah repeat the question her question is in what sense was

01:26:35

Jesus asking on the cross Father forgive them for they know not what they do if they did not repent and were not converted how was the forgiveness applied well that statement is in the context of being on the cross so when he says

01:26:56

Father forgive them it makes perfect logical sense to ask who would them be referring to so we know he had his abusers the

01:27:11

Roman soldiers they just had an illegal trial all night in private they had beaten him they had hurt him severely and then they come to the cross they come to mount

01:27:26

Calvary and he's on the cross and at the foot of the cross there are many jeering and calling out mocking him so is it not right to deduce all those that were immediately responsible for his suffering in that passion time surely he would have had in mind those people and we don't know if it's limited to that but we can't take it more broadly and deduce things that aren't evident in the text but we know it was his abusers and those who had hurt him and done him wrong he has them in mind and he says

01:28:10

Father forgive them now to take that statement and to go try to build a theological system of forgiveness and asking well how is that applied etc.

01:28:25

I think it's a wrong question we don't know how it could have been applied because we don't know who of those abusers were forgiven we don't know who among them were converted later we do know it looks like the one

01:28:44

Roman centurion at the foot of the cross he had a revelation of the perfection of the

01:28:54

Son of God and it looks like he was regenerated because he suddenly saw who

01:29:00

Christ truly was we also know that the dying thief one gospel says he was railing on Christ along with the other thieves and then suddenly he has a change of heart and he's the first one to enter paradise with Christ so we don't know how the forgiveness is applied but I think what we do know is

01:29:25

Christ as a man the suffering servant in his humanity he was fulfilling the law even on the cross he was keeping a heart free of bitterness he was forgiving because it's the law of God tells us to forgive the law of God tells us to act in perfect love and that's what

01:29:51

Christ was doing he was forgiving from the heart as our the one who fulfills the law for us in his act of redemption

01:30:04

I don't think it's the right question to say well if he really forgave him how was that applied we can't know that I don't think the

01:30:11

Bible answers it and of course there is a possibility I would think you would agree that Christ could have been asking his father to forgive for instance if he's talking about the

01:30:25

Roman soldiers to forgive them for that specific sin of murdering him of torturing and murdering him that does not necessarily mean it doesn't mean that they would be forgiven of anything else which would mean that many of them would be in hell if they did not come with faith and repentance obviously to Christ I would like you no

01:30:52

I was just going to say I would like you to uninterrupted have about 8 minutes or so to really get back to the intention that you wanted to speak on this because I know largely due to my fault

01:31:10

I included an alternative view that Jay Adams holds and it kind of it seems has drawn the attention of our listeners and they have been writing it seems exclusively on that so I don't want to send you off the rail if you will or derail you from what you wanted to speak on specifically originally

01:31:33

I appreciate that yeah I think you know I've tried to emphasize that if we just read the

01:31:42

New Testament and take it for what it actually says and means then we were faced with the responsibility the immediate true responsibility to forgive from the heart and that means canceling the debts that people have toward us forgiveness is an act of the heart and I do believe the greatest hindrance to willingness to forgive are human emotions and feelings because that's the big barrier our generation and our society lives on feelings and that is we move from saying what is true about this or what even even what should we believe or think about this to the question well how do we feel about this how does this make you feel and so feelings will never lead us to forgive damaged emotions will never want us to forgive or be open to reconciliation and so we've got to acknowledge the feelings that I have a real sin did this to me

01:33:03

I do I am wounded I am hurt but we cannot give in to being a victim to nurse our woundedness to the point where we say

01:33:23

I have a right to stay wounded I'm not going to deal with it I'm never going to forgive or be open to that person until I totally am over it that's not a right position so this leads me to just want to talk about the relationship of forgiveness to reconciliation if the bible tells me to forgive then

01:33:53

I can forgive by a volitional act of my will before God to tell the

01:34:01

Lord Father I'm no longer going to hold that against them I feel for wounded by it

01:34:07

I feel betrayed I feel hurt I don't trust them but I'm no longer going to hold this against them

01:34:15

I release it Lord I cancel this debt because you forgave me that's forgiveness and that's the beginning place and you don't have to have good emotions you don't have to feel forgiving because forgiveness is not an emotion or a feeling it's a choice that's the beginning place and we do that because God has commanded us to do it even as Christ forgave you so also do you forgive so Jesus said if you love me well keep my commandment so that's where we have to go first and then when we begin to think about that you know it is it does become liberating to us

01:35:03

I remember one time a young couple had decided to leave the church

01:35:10

I was pastoring I was very close to them and they had been hurt, confused weakened by some other people and they just came to the place of saying you know

01:35:21

I'm too hurt to go on here I need a fresh start so the man called me had breakfast with me we were very close and when he told me they were leaving

01:35:33

I was just crushed I was sad I was disappointed

01:35:39

I didn't feel betrayed but I really was wounded and so he hugged me when we parted we remained friends that was that was almost 40 years ago but that day when we parted

01:35:57

I went home and I took a walk and I cried and I felt the grief of it but I was tempted to take up an offense

01:36:09

I was tempted to say he's wrong but I didn't I committed it to the

01:36:15

Lord and I said Father I release him of this I'm not going to hold this against him and that's the place to begin just to get dead honest with the

01:36:27

Lord and tell him how we feel and tell him because he's forgiven us we're no longer going to hold offenses toward others against them so as we try to forgive it will bring us back to what

01:36:48

Matthew 18 says about forgiveness and reconciliation because in Matthew 18

01:36:55

Jesus says that if forgiveness happens it's verse 15 if he hears you you've gained your brother so forgiveness is meant hopefully to gain the brother and so this means there's two, there's different levels of forgiveness, there's forgiveness toward others we will never have opportunity to be reconciled toward or there's forgiveness toward others from the heart that have never repented but we're doing it before the

01:37:34

Lord so we're free in our heart but there are those that reconciliation is possible and I believe there are many within our circles right now there's fathers and sons alienated there's mothers and daughters alienated parents toward children siblings people attend the same church and every

01:37:59

Sunday they're sitting in a service and there's people in that service that a relationship somehow has been fractured and it's never been made right because neither party has been willing to try they're wounded, they're hurt they're embarrassed, they're scared but that situation is redeemable that relationship could be reconciled because the

01:38:27

Bible would call us to be willing to be reconciled now let's just think about that we know that if forgiveness is extended reconciliation is not automatic and we also know that for reconciliation to happen trust will begin to have to be rebuilt especially if it's a family brokenness you know we won't trust people automatically again who hurt us but reconciliation means am

01:39:01

I willing to take steps to begin to have communication, am

01:39:07

I willing to start talking to each other to try to work out our differences to come to terms of peace some people say forgiveness and reconciliation are different things and they are but we can't divorce the two from one another forgiveness and potential reconciliation they're joined together they're distinct yet they're still joined reconciliation cannot happen without forgiveness but when forgiveness is extended or given reconciliation should be a goal within relationships that there's true potential for reconciliation to happen you know

01:39:54

I hear of people all the time that a son is alienated from a father and the son doesn't want to deal with it and I want to say to such people do you want your father to go to the grave and you're standing at his funeral and you suddenly have big regrets that you didn't even try because forgiveness and reconciliation is there to be had if people will humble themselves scripture says only by pride comes contention so there at least needs to be a willingness to endeavor to move toward reconciliation when there's a forgiving heart it doesn't mean we'll fully agree but we can stop holding grudges we can stop withholding forgiveness we can choose to say this is in our past and it's way downstream we can't retrieve it so let's move forward and choose to be kind to one another and choose to love each other and be on peaceful terms um so I think even in terms of church members

01:41:17

Paul said something amazing in 2 Corinthians chapter 2 and let me just get to it we remember that in chapter, in 1

01:41:26

Corinthians Paul had called the Corinthian church to discipline the man who had been immoral apparently with his stepmother um and he called for real discipline when 2

01:41:43

Corinthians he calls for restoration apparently the church had disciplined the man almost in a too severe of a way because if you read 2

01:41:59

Corinthians 2 here's what it says um if anyone has caused grief he's talking about the disciplined man he's not grieved me but all of you to some extent so think about that, this man that committed immorality in the church he had hurt people and there were damaged feelings there were alienation there was anger, there was damaged emotionally and morally and the

01:42:29

Corinthian church had been grieved but then they had to exercise discipline and Paul says in verse 6 of chapter 2 of 2

01:42:39

Corinthians this punishment he means the church discipline which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient in other words he says you exercise discipline but what you've done is sufficient but then in verse 7 and 8 he says amazing things he says now on the contrary you ought rather to forgive and comfort him lest this one is swallowed up with too much sorrow therefore

01:43:14

I urge you to reaffirm your love to him so the picture is this here's a man that grievously sinned against others in the church and against the whole church the church had exercised discipline but now apparently the man truly repented and Paul is telling them now you reverse how you related to him you don't cause him excessive sorrow now don't stay withdrawn you're to do three things forgiving well that means affirming to the person they're forgiven number two comfort him draw near to him and give him comfort and number three reaffirm your love to him so what

01:44:03

I'm saying is this whether on the individual level or even on a church discipline situation the most grievous offenses if forgiveness is extended the restoration can happen if we're willing to be like Christ to forgive to comfort and to reaffirm love it's a powerful thing the

01:44:29

New Testament shows us and it's the model for us but our standard is not how people feel it's not human logic or psychology it's not even the views that good men write in their books about what forgiveness means the standard is the

01:44:51

New Testament and the question is are we going to take it seriously and we have to go to our final break if you have a question of your own that you want to ask of pastor

01:45:02

Mack Tomlinson please submit it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:45:08

chrisarnson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back right after these messages from our sponsors

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back.

01:53:00

This is Chris Arnzen, and this is our final segment of the program featuring

01:53:06

Mack Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. Mack, if you could, you know, summarize everything that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:53:17

Well, I just believe believers know that there's many fractured relationships, and Christ gives us the approach to be willing to forgive from the heart.

01:53:29

If we've been forgiven, that means before God canceling the debts, saying,

01:53:35

Father, I want to have a forgiving heart. I'm not going to hold anything against those in the past anymore, because if loving is

01:53:42

Christ, love is important. If having a clear conscience and a good testimony is important, then we must be like Christ, because if we won't forgive others,

01:53:53

Christ said our Heavenly Father won't forgive us. I think another, finally, the final statement

01:54:00

I'll make, I think we hold back from forgiving because we want to judge how perfect others repentance is.

01:54:08

We have an attitude, let's see how much they're groveling. Let's see if they're high on the grovel meter, and if they're groveling enough, if their repentance is perfect enough,

01:54:20

I'm going to watch them for two years, and if they really walk in perfection, then

01:54:25

I'll forgive, then I'll talk to them. What we're doing is putting them on probation. We're expecting perfection, but Christ does not do that to any of His children.

01:54:37

He said freely, you've been forgiven, so freely forgive. And I just point us back to the

01:54:45

New Testament. Let's read it and see what it honestly says, not rationalize it away, but practice our faith, because it will only liberate us with new joy and new peace if we forgive from the heart and are willing to be reconciled.

01:55:07

Well, I think we have time for one more question, another one from an anonymous listener, and the anonymous listener says,

01:55:18

Pastor Mack, earlier on in the program, you said that we should not pray for the death of someone who has harmed us or sinned against us, if I heard you correctly.

01:55:31

I was wondering then, if the Old Covenant and the Old Testament are just as inspired by God as the

01:55:40

New Testament, where do we place the imprecatory psalms? Do we still pray those very psalms today to our

01:55:48

God? And perhaps, Pastor Mack, if you could define the imprecatory psalms for our listeners.

01:55:57

Well, that's a big question for such a little amount of time, but imprecatory psalms were prayers of judgment, where David, as king and as the type of Christ, was praying against his enemies for their destruction, for their judgment, for their removal.

01:56:15

But I do believe in the Old Covenant those were unique, because David's kingdom and David's remaining alive and being preserved to become king, and ultimately building, seeing the temple of Solomon built,

01:56:34

David's preservation against his enemies was tied up with messianic fulfillment.

01:56:42

His kingship as a type of Christ had to be preserved.

01:56:49

So when David was praying imprecatory prayers against his enemies, he was praying kingdom prayers under inspiration that his kingdom would be preserved.

01:57:00

When you go to the New Testament, you don't find such praying in the same way.

01:57:07

You find prayers of... you find Christ telling us to love our enemies and to forgive.

01:57:15

Now, I do believe there's an application. If that we can pray against enemies of the gospel who are damaging the gospel, who are doing much evil,

01:57:29

I think we can pray such prayers to have them removed, for God to judge them.

01:57:35

I do think that's biblical. I just don't think we have the liberty, especially with a vindictive spirit, to ask

01:57:44

God to kill someone. But we know that he often does kill people, so I'll leave it at that.

01:57:53

Well, I'm assuming if you lived during the Nazi occupation of Germany, that it would not be incorrect to pray an imprecatory psalm to God regarding Hitler and the

01:58:08

Nazis about their deaths, actually. Would it be? No, I wouldn't think so.

01:58:14

I mean, I have prayed. I know of cases in the last 20 years in certain countries where those gospel laborers were being very opposed by wicked men who were attacking the church, were opposing the gospel, and they prayed fervently for God to deal with those people, and suddenly some of those people died sovereignly.

01:58:41

They died in a car wreck. They died by a heart attack. So, I think we have to let the

01:58:48

Lord answer those prayers in his way, in his time.

01:58:54

But I definitely think it's right to pray against wicked leaders, for sure. And we are out of time, and I want to make sure our listeners have

01:59:02

Pastor Mac Tomlinson's website for Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. It's ProvidenceDenton .org.

01:59:12

ProvidenceDenton .org. Thank you so much for always proving to be an excellent guest, Pastor Mac, and I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater