Presuppositional Apologetics and Prayer | Apologetics Live 0011

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00:03

This you said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply Not to that It's not only truth that statements would be either true or false

00:11

So is it true that i'm talking to you? Is it true? That is true statement. I'm talking to you.

00:17

Is that true? Yes Okay, is it true that babies exist? um

00:23

Well, I mean how long babies exist Babies exist Babies exist. Is that true or is it not the case that it's true?

00:30

I would I mean if you want to go down the you know, if you want to be very strict about it I would be skeptical about okay, we're done talking

00:37

There's no sense in having a conversation with someone who who just can't even recognize the statement that babies exist

00:43

Well, you know, give me a break. We're never going to get anywhere. He's not uh, he's not having a normal conversation

00:49

We're just going to move on to something else. It's ridiculous He's not interested in a conversation. No, no, he's just interested in arguing.

00:56

I am infinitum. That's all I just know You know, I just trapped him find out that I already decided as soon as I said, you know

01:03

How's he gonna answer this with babies exist if he gives me a hard time? We're just moving on, you know, all right

01:11

John you had some I was gonna say he doesn't want to have a conversation. You asked him a very simple question.

01:17

Do babies exist and he has to Dodge that. Well, I mean if you True okay, it's simple.

01:30

It's simple. It's a simple freaking question. Come on John's a little fire.

01:40

I'm gonna lose it. I'm just gonna lose it. I'm just i'm a lot tired of this. I'm tired of these games Oh You'll do anything to deny god you guys

02:05

So tell us what you really think john He's saying this telling you man,

02:11

I just Uh All right, so there's no babies

02:25

This is apologetics live Andrew rapaport part of the christian podcast community

02:44

All right, we are Live apologetics live coming to you from the internet

02:51

Uh, matt slick is well missing He's going to be coming in late Which means if everybody fills the room matt won't be able to get in just a thought if we could have some fun

03:01

See him outside trying to get into the hangout and we could just sit there and laugh, uh, that was some classic classic stuff in the intro from Uh years ago about a year ago with that that was recorded.

03:15

Um, and you know Unfortunately, we were hoping we were hoping we had uh an atheist that was going to come in Ah, but no, no, he didn't he he didn't show so He's a no -show unfortunately

03:31

But we do I brought some uh brought some big guns in to till matt gets here

03:36

Friend of mine jim osmond is in with us We're gonna we'll at least chat until matt gets here.

03:42

If you have some questions you want to challenge us apologetically You want some questions answered?

03:47

Maybe you got stuck? You were sharing the gospel with someone someone challenged you you didn't have an answer That's what this show is about.

03:53

You can watch it live. You just go to apologetics live .com You can share that with that link with your friends.

04:00

They can watch there There is also a link to join that is there so you can just go there click the link to join

04:06

If you're already in well Just refresh it and you'll uh, you'll get that To be able to join us because I just put the link in there a few minutes ago

04:17

So this is a ministry of striving for eternity we try to help answer your apologetics questions

04:23

We try to help you to be able to defend the faith and We have uh, well matt slick is usually here.

04:30

He's our resident Apologist that we have he's with carm. That's carm Stands for christian apologetics research ministry one of the largest if not the largest apologetics websites

04:42

Probably definitely the oldest I I would think as far as its size. Um It's up there.

04:49

It's a going It's over 25 years Wow a long time.

04:55

Um so with that, uh Jim, you might as well if you're unmuted and we could at least chat about some of the things that you and I Talked about that's going to be on a podcast that will drop

05:08

Tomorrow nope. Sorry sunday. I'm mixing my days up for some reason. I thought today was saturday. That's really bad. I guess um,

05:15

But uh, you and I did a podcast dealing with john mcarthur's interview by ben shapiro

05:22

Yeah, fascinating How do you well, okay first off? John mccarthur is on a secular show more of a political show.

05:30

How do you think he did? Uh, what do you think was the the overall goal that he had in that interview?

05:38

Well, I think probably his goal was obviously to communicate the gospel. That's what he sees every Venue that he is on whether it's larry king or ben shapiro

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He sees it as an opportunity to to present the gospel to whoever might be listening and I was excited.

05:52

I mean Thrilled when I saw that mccarthur was going to be on the ben shapiro because I listened to shapiro's podcast and I have for years

06:00

Uh listened to his daily podcast as well as his sunday conversation that he has and i've heard him on there with sam harris and tucker carlson and Uh, sometimes people that he totally disagrees with and shapiro is always really good about giving people that he completely disagrees with As much time as they want or need to answer the questions

06:19

And so I knew that he would not be he was not going to be combative or confrontational Really his goals in those podcasts is to have a conversation with somebody that he disagrees with about a subject and to let them share their perspective and and then

06:33

Shapiro, of course will ask engaging questions He does a good job with that often questions that are intended to be leading in a in a great cocoa style

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You know like a like an attorney ben shapiro is trained as an attorney So he he obviously wants to take the conversation a certain direction

06:49

But I knew that mccarthur would have basically free reign To present whatever he wanted to present without any interruption from ben shapiro and mccarthur did a great job doing that, uh his

07:01

Uh the listening audience man andrew, I don't know how many ben shapiro has to have

07:07

Thousands if not tens of thousands of people listen to his podcast well, he's got to have a lot when you consider that he is the uh,

07:14

I think for the 2018 the eighth or ninth most listened to podcast and there's about 660 ,000 podcasts so Yeah, that means he's he's up there

07:26

But yeah, the thing is that I think he mccarthur shared the gospel so much on that episode that On ben shapiro's podcast that next

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I guess the monday or the tuesday He actually had to say something to his audience on why he didn't criticize mccarthur he ends up saying he disagrees with mccarthur's view of isaiah 53, but he said he doesn't get into those things in his

07:53

You know when he's got a guest on he's there for to discuss with the guests not to do a debate Yeah It you know knowing that it was just great mccarthur had free reign to share the gospel over and over and over be able to explain the gospel to a jewish person,

08:08

I mean If you want to know how to evangelize and witness to a jewish person my challenge is

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Go find the john mccarthur ben. Shapiro interview Just go search on youtube for it

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And you will see how to do that. I mean they get into political issues. They get into moral issues But over and over again, you see john mccarthur bringing up the gospel going through all of isaiah 53

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Explaining how that is fulfilled in christ just over and over It was brilliant.

08:40

It was it was wonderful to watch it was it was it seemed customized To ben. Shapiro. Um, I said

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I was sitting there watching it with my daughter and uh, I at there's one point where I said either john mccarthur has listened to ben.

08:54

Shapiro argue against jesus being the messiah or Somebody has told john mccarthur who listens to shapiro's podcasts exactly what shapiro believes either that or the spirit of god was there in customizing john mccarthur's words for ben.

09:09

Shapiro because He just in presenting the gospel he presented the arguments in such a way as to basically attack the presuppositions

09:17

That shapiro has given on his own podcast in the past Because he has made the argument shapiro has he has made the argument that jesus never claimed to be god

09:26

He never claimed to be the jewish messiah He was just a rabbi and he was a good teacher and it was years generations after the events of the first century that Jesus's second and third generation followers invented his claims to deity when they wrote down Some things in the gospels and so that is how he has argued that jesus

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Christ was not the messiah and not divine and mccarthur went right to the heart of that almost as if he has heard heard shapiro's perspective on that or as if the spirit of god was just using him because he

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He basically nailed those those presuppositions. He just he destroyed them just in presenting the gospel to shapiro

10:03

He undid all of shapiro's arguments. It was brilliantly done well, I think I think what it is is that ben shapiro is not saying anything that a

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Orthodox jewish person wouldn't say and so obviously mccarthur if he doesn't know ben shapiro's arguments

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Knows the arguments that jewish people would make and his answer and I thought you know It was brilliant you and I never didn't have time to address this on the podcast episode on the rap report

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But that I should mention that was the podcast. That's that is you could search for rap report. That's wrapped with two p's

10:33

But if you could just go look for andrew rappert's rap report We're going to deal with going through some of that and there's some there were some controversial things that mccarthur did say

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Those were the issues that we were really trying to to address but there were some things that Really we there was a whole lot.

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We couldn't say just didn't have time one of them was you know, he brought up the fact that The jewish view that jesus was a good person

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He was just a good man Mccarthur dealt with that beautifully before like as you said

11:04

It was like he knew the arguments that were going to be made and took them away before they could get made

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And I don't know if he was anticipating to get some pushback. I mean he gets a little bit of pushback uh from larry king, but usually off air and so I don't know if it was because of that or what but he definitely

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Was looking to address Some of the typical arguments like well, jesus was just a good man

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And he says, you know, jesus couldn't be just a good man. He couldn't be because he claimed to be god.

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Yeah, and and therefore No good man can do that. No good. He made the liar lord lunatic a liar lunatic lord syllogism

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He didn't spell it out exactly like that, but he walked through that argument That's right. That's right

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And you know, I think that it was brilliant the way he did it It was brilliant the way he he addressed the issues and he did it and this is the thing he did it in a very conversational way

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It wasn't like he was combative. It wasn't like it was argumentative and I mean one thing that was very interesting at the beginning of that interview was

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Ben shapiro's folks the people who work for him were excited to have macarthur there and he said

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They he they've had plenty of guests and no one had the excitement that john macarthur had With the group that works for ben shapiro.

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I find that very interesting because it says that ben shapiro must be surrounded by uh good

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Christians, I mean christians that understand solid doctrine That they're excited for macarthur. They actually said there was a line of people uh to talk to and and meet

12:44

John macarthur, so that's really just kind of interesting with all the guests. He's had in there to have that kind of response

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Uh, I just find that I find it interesting. I think that maybe there's some something there we can see as a testimony to uh,

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Really to where he may be at. Yeah does tell us something about who might be surrounding him Yeah Yeah So so let's until we until we get some folks in and folks

13:10

If you want to join now is actually the best time to join It's always good to join these and we get a whole bunch of people to come later

13:16

In the show and ask questions and sometimes we don't get a chance to get to you It is always best to come in early get your question

13:23

You'll get a better chance of getting on the air, but i'm going to deal with something Matt and I have one of our many facebook groups that we have is called christian apologetics

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And we have a a troll in there an internet troll for folks who don't know is someone that pretends like they want to have dialogue when they're really not interested in it they're interested in attacking and making whatever arguments they want to make and claims and and so he this is a guy who's a

13:47

An atheist he put this out. Um And it was just an interesting.

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Uh, let's see if I could share my screen. I forget how to do that. Let's see so Where is that?

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I'll share this real quick so you can see it um, and so what you end up seeing here is this is his the thing he says

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He's got this list of things and he claims that it's a genuine question that he wants the answer to and So here's the question you have to answer one through seven number one,

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I know for certain god exists number two Can't be certain but I highly believe in god number three

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I am very Unc or i'm very uncertain, but I Inclined to believe in god number four

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The probability of god's existence is 50 Number five, I don't know if god exists, but I tend to be skeptical number six

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I can't know for certain but I think it's Highly improbable number seven.

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I know for certain that god doesn't exist Now he wanted to get a response to that.

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He wanted to know where people were in a christian apologetics group Where people fall on that line?

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So it was kind of an interesting thing, I guess he wasn't expecting My answer maybe because he really didn't like it very much but my answer uh is

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I responded and said To answer your question paul you Know for certain god exists.

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The difference between us is that you suppress the truth and I do not the proof that you

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The proof of this is that you spend all your time in here trying to convince yourself god doesn't exist

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I think that this is a way to answer and and we you know going back to what we talked about in the podcast with you know the ben shapiro interview of macarthur ben shapiro uh has him on and macarthur was answering

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Ben shapiro's questions very much with a presuppositional way he was Not taking things out actually what we could even play.

16:06

Let me play a clip of macarthur Uh, here's here was one of the clips Of why there has to be a god why should they take any of this seriously and not just think okay

16:16

It's a compilation of various texts by various old people over time Why should they take the bible seriously in the first place?

16:23

Well, I think the bible is its own defense Um, i've never defended the bible i've just preached it

16:28

And then here is another question that got asked and again a nice good presuppositional answer What do you think is the the key distinguishing factor between the philosophy of christianity and the philosophy of judaism?

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Well, first of all, I don't like to talk about it as a philosophy I'd rather talk about it as a revelation

16:45

Because it's divine You see how in both of those and this is a good thing for folks who are doing

16:53

Apologetics to be aware of this notice how macarthur in both of those cases. He's asked the question

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The first one is why should be able to take the bible seriously? He just brushes that off.

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This isn't an issue of Where people whether they take it seriously is a divine thing.

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Well, what about the philosophy? No, no, it isn't a philosophy. This is Biblical truth.

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This is divine truth. It comes from god and therefore That is the authority he places on it

17:21

Okay And so what you end up seeing here is as we look at what macarthur was was doing is he's giving a way of answering these things presuppositionally

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Now there's some folks who have some wrong views of what presuppositional apologetics is For many people presuppositional apologetics they think

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Is to ignore all evidence to deny that any evidence and just either quote scripture or to to just You know, well some people will just sit there and think that the way to do it is to ask, you know

17:54

Do you can you know everything for sure? And if they say no, then you say we'll see then their god must exist and they don't explain it sometimes unfortunately

18:03

But presuppositional apologetics is really quite simple it is the fact that there's two presuppositions that we hold to that we that we don't try to prove because You cannot prove them and that is god exists and he has spoken.

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Why can't you prove them? anything That you could use to try to argue

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To prove god's existence or to prove god's word is actually god's word would have to be greater than god and greater than the bible

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Because it has to be it would have to be a greater source The ultimate source for everything is god

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Now we can we can sit easily and we could take uh if we want we can end up taking people who want to argue that um

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They want to argue that god is um That god's

18:57

You know needs to be proven You need to have some argument You could take someone that says that god does not exist

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I can sit with them and Go through Simple things that show that their views are impossible to be thrown

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Matt slick likes to do this with the tag argument You could look at things like the laws of logic.

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You could look at things like morality and you end up seeing That there has to be an absolute universal source

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And the only possible one is god himself Where do we get morality from? We get that from the nature of god

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So the question gets asked why is rape wrong? And and people will give different answers jim, you know, you've gotten some answers but the typical ones

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I hear is harm That does harm to people You're harming another person um

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But if you think about it If we say okay we do harm so if I remove the harm done then rape wouldn't be wrong

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So that could be removed There was a a dentist who had raped several women and had them when they were under anesthesia

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They were not even aware. They didn't even know That there was any harm done.

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They didn't even know that it had occurred. It wasn't until one woman had realized well She knew she hadn't been with anybody and she was pregnant something happened worked it out to the only possible case and sure enough

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Paternity tests proved that to be true. Now. There were other women that also Were in a similar situation when it came out and the interesting thing prior to the knowledge of the rape, they did not suffer the effects of Rape of someone that's been raped.

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They didn't have the trauma After they found out that's when they realized so in other words the harm was in Finding out that you were raped not the actual rape

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So then rape wouldn't be wrong It would be telling people that rape is wrong And when you argue this way what people will end up very quickly doing very quickly is go to consent

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Well, it wasn't consented Now, I don't know why consent somehow makes things morally right or wrong because if you think about it

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If consent is required then every parent Is morally wrong when they tell their children to do something and the child disagrees

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The child's not consenting In fact, you may have to consent to obeying speed limits.

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Is that morally wrong? It's consent Something that makes something morally right and wrong

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You see consent is not something that you can use as an argument for morality Because there's plenty of cases where we do things not with consent, but because an authority says so We don't consent to it and yet it's not morally wrong

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So when you get to how would a christian how should a christian answer the question of why rape is wrong?

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Very simple Rape is wrong because god is not a rapist You see we get our morality from the nature of god.

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So the fact that we have with god that he says Something doesn't make it right and wrong

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This is to take away the you for throw dilemma that people say well god says it's wrong and that's what makes it

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No, no. No, it's not wrong because god says so it's wrong because it is not within the nature of god.

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It's not god's nature That's what makes it wrong jim, have you

22:43

You've you've done a fair bit of evangelism and run into people When people try to argue that there is no absolute morality

22:51

How do you usually try to argue? Uh, usually I try to ask them if certain things that everybody would agree is morally wrong um

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If they would object to these things being morally wrong torturing two -year -olds for fun um rape um

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Murdering people the things that with the big ones, you know ones that everybody would recognize and this is obviously Morally reprehensible and you try to agree get them to agree that yeah,

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I recognize that those things are wrong but then Then you always got to go back to the grounding question because we all recognize that there is a moral standard

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Uh, the atheists agree with us when they say that there's a moral standard But what they cannot do is ground that moral standard in something transcendent beyond their own preferences or their own

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Uh or their own ideology their own thinking Uh, so I I try and get them to say why is that wrong?

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Is it always wrong under what circumstances? Is it wrong because you just think it's wrong if you are an atheist then give me some some way of grounding your moral your moral enterprise that is outside of and beyond you because if it's just wrong because you think it's wrong then

23:57

Um, then I could say that well the rape isn't wrong because I don't think it's wrong So You have to get them to try and ground

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You have to try and get them to ground that morality and then when they try to do so without god in the picture uh, that is when

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I find that it's easy to take them right back to Showing that they basically have both feet firmly planted in midair as a great coca would like to say

24:19

Yeah, because if you if you remove the absolute nature of morality you end up with nothing

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I mean nothing is now wrong and you could You know you can very easily go through And work through the issue of the holocaust nazi, germany because the question is

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Was that wrong now for folks who actually studied much on the holocaust? when the germans soldiers who were involved in the concentration camps had been captured and went on trial

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One of the arguments they made is our society said this is true

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Our society agreed. This is moral. Therefore You can't impose your morality on us and tell us we're wrong

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And the appeal that people made was that there was an absolute Standard there's what they did was wrong

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And everybody can know that that was basically the argument that got made and that's why they ended up Having the trial now the way that most people will argue if you say

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That well take whatever the issue is People will say well, it's it's moral because the society

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Says that it is and when they say that you just can easily go to Nazi germany, so was it right you can ask the question.

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Where's the united states and Britain and all the other nations in the accesses, you know in the ally allies were they all wrong

25:51

When they went up against germany Was it wrong to attack germany based on the things they were doing now

26:02

A person that wants to say that morality is something that's subjective ends up having to argue

26:09

That no what they did wasn't wrong that what they you know Because their their society accepted it

26:17

But they know they shouldn't say that they know it was wrong and so what do they end up doing They start trying to find wiggle room

26:23

They try to find some other way to argue their way Around this and what ends up happening when they do that is you slowly start to see if you take this piece by piece

26:32

You will start to see That ultimately they're going to get down to might makes right

26:38

Okay, they're going to get to well society decided yeah, but in that in the society in Uh, nazi, germany, there were 11 million people that were murdered 6 million jewish people

26:49

And they obviously didn't agree. So why is it that? The nazis were they get to decide what's morally, right?

26:58

fair question The answer usually is that they got elected the people voted for them. They put them in power

27:04

So it's the fact that they're in power. Oh, yes They will you can walk them down. They always get to that point.

27:10

It's it's because they're in power And really what that comes down to is might makes right And when they get to that point once you get someone that says might makes right

27:19

I usually ask so you would then accept that rape is okay, and they say no They never want to say that But if you think about it, isn't that what rape is rape is a might makes, right?

27:32

If the person doing the raping is stronger Then the rape occurs if the person who's being victimized is stronger

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Then the rape isn't going to happen. It is always a might makes, right? and so the thing when we look at The arguments that they make to try to say that morality is somehow a subjective and not objective

27:53

That it's something that we can decide. It's not an absolute universal standard that comes from the nature of god

28:01

They say that because of one simple thing If morality is absolute

28:07

They're accountable to god. That's really what it comes down to and When we take a presuppositional argument, we don't give up the fact that god exists

28:17

We don't try to argue for let me prove that god exists Let me prove that the bible is is true

28:24

The bible is true for a very simple reason because the author god cannot lie

28:33

That's titus 1 -2 And when you have someone that cannot lie who is good and kind and faithful and true

28:40

Then when he says something it has those qualities to it and therefore

28:47

Anything that god writes down would be true And so god used men to he wrote through men so that we have the bible

28:55

There's nothing we can use to try to prove the bible is god's word. I mean you can look at prophecies.

29:01

Those are fine That's a great that's the thing that that I ended up coming to accept that the new testament was

29:07

Written by god was because I saw all the fulfilled prophecy You can look at the prophecies to see that jesus was prophesied that he would come that he would be god that he would reign

29:20

That he would die for his people. You can look at all those prophecies and see that he fulfilled them

29:26

Now those are evidences that we can use but I use those evidences To support the presupposition that I take without question god exists.

29:35

He has spoken You see i'm not going to put god on trial as if we have to prove him

29:42

No, we're the ones that get put on trial and the fact is many of the professing atheists and why do

29:48

I say professing atheists because well going back to that photo that I Showed that not really a meme but that chart that the guy put up Every single human being according to romans one every single human being knows that god exists

30:02

Though some suppress that truth in unrighteousness And so, uh with that we got some folks that that came in Uh, I don't i'm looking to see

30:13

I think vince you came in first and then james then john I don't know if you guys have anything You want to ask any questions you have or if you even want to just chat more about presuppositional apologetics and what we're started with So i've i've brought all of you guys in so, uh larry just came in so i'll bring larry up So if any of you guys

30:35

What do you guys think about uh, the arguments that that made I know you guys all agree with presuppositional apologetics

30:41

So I don't think you're going to at least those mentioned I think One of the things

30:46

I want to make sure recently that we definitely Include on our presuppositional apologetics is to always make sure we start with the gospel and end with the gospel

30:56

I think sometimes we forget to that's the main focus and So i've just been conscious of that lately uh that I make sure that the gospel is front and center and in the in the presupp apologetic because That's really the power to you know convert people

31:15

I didn't hear a lot of what y 'all were talking about came in late. So i'm not too sure which y 'all are Well, you're not the only one that came in late.

31:21

Actually. Someone else just got in here uh Could that be oh look at that.

31:27

That is the slick one himself is actually here Look at him a slick one.

31:32

That's right All hail the slick No, I had a doctor's appointment and uh

31:41

Here I am Traffic coming home and all of that you missed you missed the intro and so did john

31:46

But I I played that that clip from about a year ago matt where we had the guy that came in and said

31:52

But he wasn't sure if babies exist And john lost it that was that's a that's one of my favorites said well you're one so that's over Yeah Um, I am almost tempted to do something matt just for the value

32:10

I I was just sent that video and someone said that they were given permission for me to uh,

32:17

To show the video, but I haven't I didn't even watch it. I don't know if we should just play it but it is classic What was it about?

32:22

Uh, actually you might have been there It started this is it started from a an african -american friend of mine cliff and I know you've met him but you probably don't remember him because Well, you don't remember anybody but Cliff was telling me that we were talking about different preaching styles things like that And cliff said that when you're in the african -american churches, you could be preaching a nursery rhyme

32:47

And People would amen it as long as you have the cadence down and you have that right and I said no way

32:54

No, like you can't he's like, oh, yeah, i'm nursery rhyme And we were at this missionary housing place and he literally starts doing

33:03

Little miss muffet sat on her tuffet eating her curds away and he's doing it with this cadence and no joke, this woman is walking past and just goes amen brother preach it and I just I couldn't believe it.

33:17

I couldn't believe it. So we actually got him to to video him doing uh

33:24

Preaching a nursery Rhyme yeah, so I should I should see if I could pull this down and we can maybe play that we'll have to see uh

33:36

Okay, i'll see if I can add it to my drop box That might take some time. So Matt you're you're getting older.

33:44

Uh, oh, here we go. I I don't know how long this is uh Should we play this matt?

33:50

Yeah. All right. Let's let's play this let me uh Share the screen here

33:57

I don't know how long this is, but I hope i'm gonna let's see cliff gave permission for you to use this uh, just want to make sure

34:05

I I just want to make sure I said Make sure he didn't say you know Uh He said, uh

34:14

Cliff didn't want to be seen as clowning around or disrespecting god. He trusts that you will not use it in that manner

34:20

So i'll say it this way that yeah, I mean this is this is not cliff clowning around it's not cliff

34:26

It's actually cliff doing something that I think is helpful for for us It was for me to realize that there are people can be deceived just in the way

34:36

That this cadence works that people get into an emotional Response system.

34:41

This is very much like what charles finney had done, but let's play this Yeah Turn it up.

34:55

Yeah can't hear it Okay, let me see maybe the uh

35:02

I know it's technical and you're you're tech challenged.

35:08

Yeah, i'm not I just i'll turn up that Okay, how's that A little better You can't hear that no

35:43

It's all right All right So we were just talking about he was saying the amen so let's see if I turn it up a little more

35:51

See if you get it now If there's a url on youtube, just give it to us. We can go Right That's how we got him to do

36:18

All right

36:29

So, yeah, I mean it was uh, he actually goes through and and does this whole thing of uh, where he

36:35

Preaches a nursery rhyme and and uh I mean when you get that cadence going and matt, let's talk about this.

36:42

Let me ask you this Um charles finney known as one of the the great preachers of his time

36:50

But unfortunately, unfortunately, so so why do you say unfortunately and what is it that finney's a heretic?

36:57

Okay, so the theology. Yeah theology. He's a pelagian and Works righteousness and sinless perfectionism blah blah blah.

37:06

Okay. Anyway, yeah So what was it that? made That got charles finney to get so much attention that people they was referred to as the great awakening

37:16

You don't know the story finney. He had a shark fin hat finney That's it that's how he got people

37:32

Well, he he he was known for using emotionalism It was I didn't know okay.

37:38

Yeah. No, he he was well, he's the one that created the the Thing they called it called it the anxious bench

37:44

To get people to an emotional state that they would come forward first You got to raise your hand then you got to stand up then you got to walk out of the aisle

37:52

And then you got to walk down the aisle And all these little steps to get people into an emotional frenzy and and the music was a big part you you see this with uh, billy graham

38:02

Music big part you see this also Benny hinn uh, you know

38:07

Any other assembly of god and pentecostal churches? That's what I grew up in That's what they use to really bring out emotions music big time.

38:16

Yep along with all the um Jesus culture stuff and yeah, just all that stuff

38:23

I mean, they they all bring everything out as far as music goes that they play hours upon hours of music to get you into a some kind of Trance Yeah.

38:34

Yeah, and it's quite scary the way they do this Yeah, that's the kind of um atmosphere that I was saved in and whenever I realized the error

38:43

Is I had to examine myself for months to uh to make sure that just just out of fear that my conversion wasn't false

38:51

Same here, man Yeah, and you know, we have uh, we have uh, justin peter's pastor in here jim osmond.

38:59

Hey jim Just you know and justin always says that uh

39:06

You know what you end up having is and just as I say that jim has been dropped But you know what you end up having is

39:14

Justin peters always says that you can't have the benny hinns and the and all those guys without the music

39:19

He said they'll go like three hours Of trying to create that emotional frenzy state and get people

39:27

Into I think it only takes me three minutes to create an emotionally frenzy state

39:34

Yes, but that's one of anger and frustration that people have yeah lynching and things like that.

39:39

Yeah, but it's still I thought I thought you're gonna say something like in somewhere in the bathroom

39:45

I can do that, too Yeah, that's true. Oh All right.

39:50

So are there any unbelievers in here? We do not have any unbelievers in here What are you guys talking about presuppositionalism you're talking about presuppositional apologetics

39:59

Yeah What do you know? I'm gonna bring something up You ready?

40:08

Yeah All right now so, uh, I guess all of us in here know a little bit about theology and um, including uh andrew and uh

40:22

Well, you know He did say a little a little that's right a little theology, um

40:29

Here's something i've been thinking about recently and it's not earth shattering maybe uh

40:37

There's a verse. Where is it matt? Actually, why before you do that, can you do me a favor while you're doing that? Can you also put the apologetics live on the home page?

40:45

Ah Thanks. Sure. You mean like just put the words there? Sure So one of the things i've been thinking about lately is the issue of faith

40:55

And I was reading I have devotions I read in bed a lot and um I was reading through ian bounds on prayer

41:04

And he was saying some things about faith that were really impressive and It kind of convicted me

41:14

And it got me thinking about some other stuff as well now Um, i'm gonna i'll read some of the highlights that he does here in a second but uh

41:25

Let's see get this to going here to that You know, let's I'm confused with you said

41:31

You read before you go to bed You kind of have a bed You get into bed and it takes you a long time to fall asleep.

41:40

I I don't like some people I know. Yeah Yeah, I don't I don't get that I know uh

41:49

So for the backstory there Matt and I were focused on this first so I can get the uh links up for the yeah

41:57

I'm gonna i'm gonna tell the story while you get the links up. So matt and I were traveling together and matt is like Explaining the routine he's got to do so he could finally fall asleep about an hour and a half

42:05

I gotta do this. That's it, you know And i'm just like yeah, okay. Well, good night And i'm just out and he's out like two minutes

42:15

And I get up in the morning i'm having i'm having breakfast with our host that We're sitting there and matt comes out just looks it at our host

42:24

Looks at me and goes I hate you And the host is just like what? And he's like man, he just comes in it's like Good night, and he's just out two minutes.

42:37

He's sleeping Well, I just assume you're used to turning your brain off Yeah, uh, okay, let's see i'm almost done here participate and uh

42:55

And apologetics live thursday night to uh Let's see if this works.

43:00

I'm doing quickly Okay, it's up now. Uh I want to find some of the stuff he's saying because One of the things he said

43:11

Caught my interest And you guys know how sometimes you can hear something and it just kind of echoes for some reason

43:23

It's only because i have a hollow head That that works. That's true. I haven't experienced that matt.

43:29

Maybe it's just you Oh, I definitely experienced that. Yeah Let's see

43:37

I I I get a lot of things highlighted, but let me just read through a few until we find something you'll see but a faith which believes that The things which he saith shall come to pass.

43:46

That's the kind of faith. We need faith must be definite specific an unqualified unmistakable request for the things asked

43:53

Faith gives birth to prayer. Now that was that was interesting And faith is humble

43:59

And it's persevering And the lack of faith lies at the root of all poor praying

44:07

And I was like, you know, that's that's true It really is true this issue of prayer and Faith in us now because the reason i'm talking about this is because well, you know let's talk about communicatio idiomatum and how it relates to the imputation justification with the the issue of propitiation out of halasmas in first, uh

44:25

John 2 4 we can talk or first john 2 2 we can talk about this for a while No problem And so the intellect, you know is trained

44:33

But what about our faith? Um And one of the things that he said

44:41

You know faith needs to be cultivated faith needs to be be developed which reminded me of george muller

44:49

But one of the things he said, okay getting out of the point is and I can't find the exact quote That one of the jobs of the pastor.

44:55

So what do you guys think of this? One of the jobs of the pastor is to increase the faith or work to increase the faith of the congregation

45:05

So faith in god, you know and more faithfulness to god. What do you guys think of that?

45:14

Oh, well, I think definitely in the sense of uh God the preaching of god's word being sanctifying in that sense, uh sanctification

45:24

Uh, the more we're conformed more to the image of christ. Hopefully the greater our prayer life becomes As our faith increases through that sanctification

45:33

All right, so Jesus says if you have faith as a mustard seed you'll see this mountain be cast into the sea and it will be done

45:41

So, what do you think he meant by that? Sorry, I was on mute say that again

45:54

I found the quote incidentally, um Let me read the quote. Let's see the pastor.

46:01

Are you slimeball? Did you guys just hear him call me a slimeball? I just need for the record harsh on you.

46:08

I know I I get this all the time So I call you a jerk I call you a jerk

46:16

Are you not a slimeball? Well, no i'm a jerk, but why am I a jerk? Why is that matt let's focus on this

46:32

The pastor who succeeds in changing his people from a prayerless to a prayerful people

46:39

Has done a greater work than aug than did augustus in changing a city from wood to marble talking about rome

46:47

And after all, this is the prime work of the preacher The prime work of the preacher that's what kind of got me

46:54

Well, there's a little bit something else i'm talking about here on the very issue of nature of faith But what do you think of that statement?

47:00

The prime work of the preacher. I don't know that i'd agree with that. It's the prime work I think that will we end up seeing acts chapter six when they

47:10

Are selecting deacons? There's two things that the pastor should be doing The preaching of the word of god the study of god's word and prayer

47:19

It doesn't say leading people in prayer though, I would think that being an example is important um

47:26

So i'm just as I think about it, I don't know that i'd agree It's the prime work, but I do think that I agree with the emphasis.

47:32

He's saying in Helping to lead people to pray because I think this is a big thing that is lacking in the church today

47:41

I think that we don't have people In churches today that are really mindful of prayer

47:50

Um I think there's more to prayer than what we we realize. Oh, yeah. Well ian bounds.

47:55

Um, i'm trying to look for I mean the book I have is is I have the complete works and it's like this thick um

48:03

Right, that's a reading six six volumes That he wrote on prayer Very detailed work.

48:09

I I recommend that to anybody who you know It's pretty impressive really wants to dig into prayer and understanding it because that that work is

48:17

Phenomenal in in going through and explaining the the just what's going on and So much of prayer that we don't think about one thing i'm concerned about is um

48:31

Prayerlessness now we pray as christians When you slimeball that you i'm doing i'm fixing it again.

48:39

Yeah. There we go. There we go um As christians we pray And i'm reminded of some stories, um george mueller the orphan king of the 1800s

48:52

And what he would do, uh He had a methodology not that that's a formula, but he just had an approach before god

49:00

He he just wouldn't do anything unless it was bathed in prayer and and stuff like that. And there was a an instance where Where the orphans in england, um 1800s electricity had been

49:14

Invented by that time, but they didn't have it in their head kerosene lamps that they were using in this gigantic wood building and the uh

49:25

The central heating system was on the brink of just failing and they didn't want to fail because if it did room to get cold pneumonia

49:34

Uh, and then what are they going to do? And so they had to run through various scenarios to solve this problem And I'll skip all the logistics but they concluded that the own he concluded the only thing that could be done was to pray when the

49:52

Uh furnace had to be scheduled to be shut down instead of break because if it broke it'd be a lot worse

49:58

Scheduled to have it shut down and fixed repaired. They'd be down for a day or two or three or something like that two or three days

50:04

And they didn't want the kids to get pneumonia during that period of time. The only thing they could conclude was To pray and ask god to stop

50:12

The cold wind blowing from the north. This was in england And to send a warm wind from the south because there were no other options and since he had

50:23

Done this ministry because he felt it was what god was wanting him to do and because it was god's calling

50:29

Then it wasn't his problem anymore He was just the facilitator of the will of god

50:35

And so he just went in prayer as he did daily twice three times a day And said lord, this is the only option

50:42

I can see This is you know with respect. He's saying this is your concern your endeavor.

50:47

It's your your problem. You're going to solve it and so the people gathered to To shut the furnace off and The cold wind from the north stopped blowing

51:02

And a warm south wind blew And he prayed for two things that and that the men would have a mind to work

51:12

And so they shut it down on a saturday. They worked all night to the evening And they were time to go time to go home.

51:19

And so he asked the foreman If he would ask the men to come back early on sunday to work

51:26

And he uh, and they the foreman asked every single one of them and every single one of them declined Everyone said no

51:33

Instead every one of them worked through the night And they got the furnace fixed when they turned it on the cold wind from the north started blowing again

51:45

So That's an instance of faith. Peter walked on water and and jesus said

51:53

Uh in other places, you know be it done according to your faith It's been

51:58

Something i've been thinking about recently, you know, you've got the doctrine of the hypostatic union down the trinity down but not this doctrine of faith

52:07

And uh You know, we talk about apologetics. We talk about various things. We try and reach people connect with them

52:15

And I can't help but wonder sometimes if we're Missing i'm just thinking out loud if we're missing a significant part of the boat, so to speak by not, uh dwelling in prayer far more than we ought to be

52:27

Maybe because we don't have enough faith in prayer. And so faith and prayer Are related i'm just thinking out loud.

52:35

What do you guys think? I agree. I mean, you know a lot what a lot of people don't know about george. Mueller They think he was some man who had this supernatural faith that He was special in some way and yet if you actually read his autobiography you read the introduction

52:50

He says in there that the reason he Wanted to do an orphanage Is he wanted to live his life completely on faith to serve god and he wanted some way to display that and what he said was back, then there was

53:06

Just thousands and thousands thousands of orphans And he thought that this would be the greatest way

53:13

To glorify god to put god's on on display for people to see

53:19

How he will answer when you live by faith now There is a point

53:25

I think, you know where some people try to test god and There's I think there's a difference there

53:32

So I right morning with you don't Say well if god, you know if god exists, he's going to do this or you know god i'm going to say

53:40

Not an insolent test but a submissive test, correct correct I mean

53:47

You you end up seeing throughout the his autobiography. There's a ton of things that happened That he didn't know how god was going to answer but he just said we're going to trust that god's going to answer

53:56

There's no food And all of a sudden a bread truck breaks down a milk truck breaks down I mean time and time again things like that Would happen right outside the orphanage and then say hey, you gotta get rid of the food.

54:07

You want it? Yeah Yeah, and and the guy doesn't know that broke down. He didn't know that they didn't have anything

54:14

He he he was unaware of that You know, he didn't know that all of a sudden they're

54:20

You know going to be dealing with the fact that uh, these kids are going hungry right uh, so that becomes a thing that we end up seeing, you know, and he really was trying to to show

54:33

What happens when you live by faith and he was a man of prayer. That's for sure And I think prayer look matt.

54:40

You've done tons of conferences Have you ever done a conference? on the topic of Prayer no

54:52

Yeah I've i've never Really? I mean there are some

54:58

But you don't see those type of conferences really being populated people won't go to a conference on prayer

55:06

No, because uh prayer prayer is a very difficult thing and for someone like me with a little bit of asperger's and And stuff i'll be praying for one minute next thing, you know, i'm surfing

55:19

And then two minutes later. Oh, wait a minute. That's right. I'm on my knees here praying And so I have that problem of concentration and things like that And I know that it's difficult for others as well, you know, our minds wander but we've got to I don't know this

55:35

It's some it's like the spiritism saying there's something more about this issue of faith Prayer is important.

55:42

We know that but Faith is the engine of prayer You know, it's when we are praying

55:49

We are I like to call it faithing we are in that position and condition of faith in an ongoing place and time and And I was somebody else something

56:02

I read or something something about The issue of when you pray

56:10

You have to have and you should have in your heart the intention of not sincerity for the sake of sincerity, but You don't want to have a hypocritical attitude

56:22

In that you just go through the process of praying because you're supposed to do it and then you move on Because that's pharisaical prayer

56:29

And it was this discussion was on the nature and the essence of the condition of the heart in a humble state before the almighty god as we

56:38

Lay our concerns before him and in this there has to be a time of of expectant humble trust in him

56:47

And I think there's something to the very nature of being in that state with god that somehow

56:55

Moves things moves him moves whatever empowers. That's all this is the wrong terminology.

57:01

I'm going to find better ways to say it One thing that I learned over the years

57:07

In prayer well a couple things one thing that i've learned is I keep a notebook when i'm

57:13

Either that or my my phone just for prayer just for when I get those distractions

57:19

Think of something and you know, my mind wants to to stay there um, what i've learned to do is just Jot it down get back to it later

57:29

Not even bother just i'll get that's a good idea And and I I know that i'm going to do that so i'm just not going to i'm not even going to think about it till later later i'll deal with it and That that's one thing.

57:41

The other thing that i've done that I find very helpful is uh just to when i'm when i'm

57:48

Having prayers to have I have an app on my phone And so what it does is it it allows me to just check off When i'm done praying for something so if I end up having something happen,

57:59

I get distracted Or something happens and I I have to you know To step away from that time prayer.

58:06

I can go right back and I know where I left off I know what things I haven't prayed for that day. That's on my list

58:12

But one of the things i'm horrible at and this is what I think you're really getting to matt is um

58:21

The one thing that i'm really that's really hard is the fact of just having that meditation and this is what

58:27

I think is different is what uh the pastor of my church focuses on a lot is this idea of just the old testament term of meditation where you're you're it's basically dealing with how cows eat where they they regurgitate it and Eat it back up and just keep doing that and it's the idea that We just keep going over something over and over and over and just being quiet And we live in such a busy constant

58:55

And especially with the technology constantly having something That we we have to have before us keeping us always on the go

59:04

To just sit in silence is hard And I mean try it just try it just Jesus jesus himself said go to your closet

59:17

Pray I mean, I think that that's rather significant for us to do in practice

59:23

Is to get away, you know, maybe not physically go in the closet, but still find the seclusion find a place where you can kind of Uh get away from all the distractions and and just really focus um,

59:36

I was going to say that andrew you also give a great tip when it comes to your um, Uh, your little cheat sheets that you have you have one of them is the attributes of god and that you go through those

59:47

Uh in your prayer time and really reflect on on the natures of god and the attributes of god who he is um

59:56

But also you guys just kind of gave me an idea you two you should get together and write a book together and and matt kind of already did the um,

01:00:05

Uh the title of it already called faithing I think it's a good idea Well, there's something about faithing

01:00:13

Because You know doctrinally speaking faith is only as good as who you put it in And so we have to define who god is to properly have faith in him

01:00:21

And that can only be understood and received through the revelation of scripture Which we go to prayerfully as we ask him to unfold that word in our hearts and our minds

01:00:29

And then as we encounter god in a more personal relationship Through the word, you know by the revelation of his knowledge that's revealed.

01:00:36

We learn about him Then we need to go into prayer to experience him but being in that presence of god practicing the presence of god

01:00:44

That's the title of a of an old book to practice the presence of god And dealt with the issue of prayer meditation time with the lord

01:00:51

And a lot of this is just lost in our busy schedules and things like this

01:00:57

And I can't help but wonder i'm going to use myself as an example uh of the arrogance that someone like myself routinely

01:01:06

Exhibits in my in my own heart In that I have knowledge. So therefore

01:01:11

I don't need to go in prayer Because I can solve this problem on my own effort. This has been a downfall that i've had to deal with over the years

01:01:20

And it's just what it is It's not as bad as it sounds but it's it's there enough to be a concern

01:01:27

Where i've realized over the years that there have been times, you know, I say i'll be out witnessing and something comes up Well, I can handle this one

01:01:35

I can handle it. Give me the you know, give me this thing I can tell them with this logic this and that at that instead of saying lord

01:01:41

Give me the answer as I go speak to this person Because one is moving out of the power of your own flesh and the other is trying to submit to the power of god

01:01:52

And so what we do is we we fall on our strengths as well as our weaknesses. I say that all the time And when we approach the issues of the things that are spiritual how much more should we all be praying?

01:02:01

There's nothing wrong with learning and all these doctrines and all these truths, but there's I just There's something

01:02:08

I just can't put my finger on it. There's something about the issue of having faith

01:02:14

There's something about faithing. There's something about it And again, it's not like the positive confessionists will say

01:02:22

Yeah, you have faith in faith and you'll be good because faith can move mountains because you put your faith forward And what they're doing is they're having faith in faith

01:02:29

And I don't want to have faith in faith that's idolatry I want to have faith in uh who god is and his power to move and i'm reminded again at this point of of um

01:02:42

Of uh george mueller and the way he He was a pastor and then he had this inclination on his heart to start an orphanage

01:02:50

And what he did was he didn't tell anybody And he didn't know if it was god or not. He didn't know if it was god or his own flesh

01:02:56

So what he did was he started praying about it lord if it's from you Then increase it if it's not from you then decrease it

01:03:05

And so he would pray like this for weeks until uh He said that this particular instance

01:03:12

He said that he would read as he was studying the word of god. There came a verse that was

01:03:19

Unusually enlightened to him or made powerful and it had to do with the issue of helping

01:03:25

The orphans and stuff like this And he said it was with such force that he realized

01:03:31

It was god Doing this and the interesting thing is that at that point?

01:03:38

That his faith Was in god Not in the circumstances not in the people

01:03:45

Not in what could be done with people But in god and what god can do in all these things and it's the object of his faith was the divine one

01:03:54

And so he would look to god and he would rest in god Because as part of the issue of the faith that was cultivated through this whole thing

01:04:01

If god is putting it upon your heart, then it's then the working out of it is his problem not yours

01:04:07

So therefore you can have a restful confident faith in god And I think it's that kind of restful confident faith in god that we're supposed to be having as christians

01:04:17

That can only really be cultivated through experience time And developing that a lot in fact when a quick story about him, um was uh, he was on a boat and He is after he had left the the orphanage, uh ministry work

01:04:36

And he was going around europe lecturing. He spoke german and english I think and So he's lecturing and um, they were socked in by fog in the bay

01:04:47

And so the ship he was on could not move and go get docked So the captain was a christian and said i'm going to go to the cabin and pray that the lord

01:04:56

Will lift the fog and müller said No I'll go pray

01:05:04

And he went in and prayed within 20 minutes it was gone the fog was gone I always thought that was interesting.

01:05:10

No, i'll go pray. I think müller Had developed such a close relationship with the lord in prayer that he knew

01:05:20

If he prayed it would be taken care of I mean If you say to this mountain Be cast into the sea and you do not doubt it shall be done.

01:05:29

I think that's where he was at I think that's where we need to be Yeah, I think this is why the church is so anemic and in our generation why we

01:05:42

Don't see I mean you and I've talked about this you've you've Care very deeply about the church

01:05:48

This is why I think that we've had such problems with the church is because we don't see people And i'm i'll be honest i'm speaking to myself um

01:05:59

We don't see people that are spending the time prayer One of the more convicting quotes that I think of is from martin luther

01:06:06

That he used to pray for two hours every day unless he had a busy day Right, he would make it three

01:06:13

Yeah, uh, you know For many of us to think that we're going to spend just block out two hours a day

01:06:22

Would seem insane like we just you know, would we have that kind of time, uh, and yet That is something that um that Get this, you know who walter martin was right?

01:06:36

Yes Well, I had the privilege of meeting him a few times and on one of these occasions

01:06:45

Uh, we were at cri when I was in southern california and I was doing volunteer work to raise funds

01:06:50

And dr. Martin came in And we were gathered as a group around a particular table to discuss a few things before we started doing hitting the phones and to pray

01:07:02

And a guy named dan slessinger Uh was the the guy in charge and dr. Martin walked in Behind us 20 feet unexpectedly in the evening

01:07:11

And he said hey, dr. Martin, um, would you mind praying for us? He said I would love to Well, it just so happened he put his hand on my left shoulder and he put his hand on somebody else's right shoulder

01:07:24

He stood there He started praying And I remember very clearly

01:07:32

That I stopped praying I just started listening I'd never heard prayer like that before And I can't recall what it was.

01:07:43

He said But I just remember going Wow, that's what prayer is

01:07:51

Yeah, I remember being out in london at charles hadden spurgeon's church. It's uh,

01:07:57

Dr. Masters is the I think who was there And he had a regular habit of praying for you know, a pastoral prayer and you know most pastors they have pastoral prayers maybe a couple of minutes and Everyone was standing during this prayer and it was about 20 or 30 minutes of prayer

01:08:17

And he could have ended that prayer said amen got home and we would have been like wow, what a great service

01:08:24

I mean We just all of us were like he we got he got done praying And there was a team of us and we all looked at each other and we're just like wow

01:08:33

That was just great. I mean like take it back to we talked with finney Where finney uses the music and all these guys use the music for something like that really

01:08:42

Biblically what we get is when you're in a position like that, like you're talking with walter martin you get someone that prays like that right

01:08:50

Tozer was that way tozer actually they said tozer wouldn't come to his own church's prayer meetings

01:08:57

Because when he used to and he would pray no one wanted to pray afterwards They just wanted to sit and listen to him, right?

01:09:06

And there's something to it Yeah, there is or something to it, you know I'll tell you what I think is to it.

01:09:11

I'll tell you and I bring it to tozer Tozer's book the attributes of god it goes to when you have a deep knowledge of who god is

01:09:20

And his attributes and you meditate on that I think That's what informs our faith that is what

01:09:29

Really brings about a knowledge that god is great and not us Right because this goes to what you said earlier kind of matt

01:09:36

We we kind of think well, I could solve this problem. I could do this and we don't Depend on on god so much of prayer is dependence on god

01:09:47

Not asking him to do things for us But depending on him for answers Yep You know, there's a book called scott's worthies and i've got a copy someplace um

01:10:01

And it's uh dealing with the presbyterian divines, uh george wishart john fleming

01:10:08

Charles not I mean charles knox. John knox and uh in There was

01:10:18

There's one one story i'm trying to remember I thought it was two but anyway one I remember um

01:10:25

That there was this man Oh, yeah, two stories. That's right one about scotland Um, but anyway, there was this man who um, he was a man of prayer and um

01:10:37

When he would say to his staff he had helpers at the at the parsonage or whatever They said i'm gonna go down to the garden or go out to the garden and spend time with the lord

01:10:49

What he meant was he said to go out into the garden And spend time with the lord

01:10:55

And people said they saw a second figure Walking with him in this garden

01:11:03

And uh, i'm like wow, you know, this is what they said this there's another man who

01:11:09

I forgot their names Who had to arrange with his wife? uh the permission

01:11:17

Make sure it was okay with her that he would spend eight hours a day in prayer And she said okay because he wouldn't be available

01:11:27

And he did this for two years And when he was done in two years, there was a revival in scotland not saying it's a formula

01:11:37

But you know, you hear these guys like oh my goodness Well, you know in new york um trimmer, there's a church in manhattan that they that's what they decided to do they actually they actually

01:11:51

Encouraged all their members. They didn't have everyone but they had a Prayer that would start

01:11:56

I think at five or six in the morning And people could just come in. This is monday through friday come in before work

01:12:04

Have a time of prayer then you go to work Their their wednesday night prayer meeting would be full and it's nothing but prayer.

01:12:11

I we attended there once well, and it's there's no No sermon no bible study it's just everyone gathers and they pray for like an hour hour and a half and it's

01:12:24

There's got to be over a thousand people there Yeah we're going to be needing more of this

01:12:33

I think as as uh Our history here unfolds.

01:12:38

Yeah Subjective prayer. Oh, i'm, sorry

01:12:44

Um, there's a more simple thing for that too is if you think about a relationship that you have with any human being

01:12:50

If you don't talk with them often Your your relationship sort of dissipates So I think prayer is good

01:12:55

And when you hear other people praying you hear that guy that gives that amazing speech and you're so moved And then you get up and I don't know it's for me.

01:13:03

It is is like, uh, hey god, uh, thanks Uh, how's it going, dude? Yeah, exactly and we're all different and that's how you know that that difference in that communication

01:13:14

That's what makes us closer to god that inner that we're Putting ourself in that position to have that communication

01:13:22

And increase that relationship and it's also a form of validating him in our lives because you know

01:13:28

Unless we're crazy and have psychoses At this point we don't talk to unknown imaginary things in our lives.

01:13:35

So For me, it's it's it goes from the range of very simple like that all the way up to complex and Increasing your faith because you know that he's there um, and then also

01:13:46

You know I think some people get turned off by the fact that when I pray for the health of this person or pray for that Or for myself, it's not answered always in what we expected or had wanted in prayer and that I think frustrates people because You know, you kind of have this uh false idea that it's almost like santa claus, you know you're getting your wishes granted and but you know god has so much greater plans for you in life that Sometimes the answer to this prayer is not going to open bigger doors

01:14:20

And I think people need to remember that that we're not going to have these wishes granted There's a bigger plan in motion and god's plan ultimately is going to be the best design there ever was you know, obviously and you bring something up that we we could talk about as far as encouraging christians in corporate prayer because There is a time where in corporate prayer you you may have that person who is so eloquent in their speech

01:14:45

And no one wants to follow after them Let me give some advice in prayer um

01:14:53

Father God lord That's not punctuation

01:15:00

You all know that person i'm not I don't have anyone specific in my mind that i'm saying this and so none of the listeners think that i'm thinking of you, but you all know that person that gets up and prays and every other word is

01:15:11

Oh lord, I just want lord for you to come lord and do this lord and help my my grandmother lord and you know

01:15:17

Father do this father, you know, you know someone so sick and father, you know It's annoying to listen to yeah, and and When you're praying also the word just just just do this just just do that It's really annoying

01:15:34

They should use the word justice and then maybe some of those things wouldn't I wanted to bring it up because he mentioned it or matthew 6 7

01:15:44

And when you pray do not heap upon empty phrases as the gentiles do for they think that they will be heard for their many words

01:15:51

Do not be like them. I mean I can understand long prayers as long as they're actually meaningful

01:15:58

But right I see so many people just filling them with meaningless What's it make them long that I think that's wrong

01:16:07

It's almost like what cliff was was, you know pointed out in the clip We were trying to play earlier was you know, you can have you can have a nursery rhyme

01:16:15

And you know, it's it's a meaningless words And you can have that in prayer. You can also have people in corporate prayer that are using corporate prayer for gossip

01:16:25

Where they're they're doing it as a prayer request, so it's okay And really what they're doing is you pray for you know, bobby over there, you know, he was over at the bar, you know

01:16:38

There are certain things that you You know, that shouldn't be the case you have things that prayer can be abused um

01:16:48

There are things that we could you know should be helpful things in in times of corporate prayer um

01:16:54

You know not speaking so you could be heard but but honestly praying as if you're the only one there.

01:17:00

It's just you and god because otherwise The pharisees at that point, huh? Yeah Have you have you heard paul washer's worthless parent prayer meeting sermon?

01:17:11

No Oh, it's delicious. Okay, so you'll drop a link in here for us Uh, well i'm on my phone so I can't drop a link in the chat

01:17:18

But uh, if you look it up on sermon audio worthless prayer meeting, I love it man when he's talking about that He said just like what you're saying.

01:17:26

He said what we have now at prayer meetings He's like when I go in church and churches and try to get them to fire up prayer meeting

01:17:32

He's like what you have is a 45 minute gossip session five minutes of praying Yeah What you should do is just everybody express their concerns while you're praying

01:17:44

So that the spirit if the spirit moves the person to meet that need of that individual or can do that you know, and he's like the other thing is

01:17:52

He's like we spend more time praying about keeping saints out of heaven than then

01:17:59

Getting lost people in there. Yeah, he's like we pray we spend more time praying for aunt betty's knee

01:18:06

Than we do for the lost person that lives next door to us and i'm sure that The speed demon charlie spine i'll have the link in in the

01:18:17

Pretty quick. He'll find that even though it's not on karma, but Yeah, I I think that you know, you bring up a good point

01:18:23

That's that's why I think john was saying earlier, you know when I struggled with prayer many years ago My pastor said pray god's word back to him pray god's attributes back to him and that's when

01:18:35

I developed the the card that that john referred to which was Basically, I just wrote out all the attributes of god put some verses next to it.

01:18:43

It's now that whole thing is in my phone And you know, let me pull up my app. Um So here so I don't know if you guys can see that that's probably not going to show up too.

01:18:53

Well but you know That's my that's my prayer list and and you see it's just the attributes of god

01:19:01

And so I I end up praying through every day 31 different attributes of god

01:19:08

And so what does that do what what does it do is this it focuses us on who god is the nature of god

01:19:16

Before we're even getting into praying for aunt millie's knee and you know, uncle jack's back, you know, whatever we

01:19:25

We end up finding a lot of things at least for me I find a lot of the things that I thought I needed to pray about This brother or that sister or someone like that?

01:19:32

And really by the time I got done talking about who god is I realized that I had a bad attitude It was me that had a perception problem so So, let's see

01:19:44

I want to try to get to some of the questions. I know there's some in here, but before we do Uh, let's talk about sleep

01:19:52

A lot of people struggle with sleep a lot of people have difficulties as matt does falling asleep.

01:19:58

I don't have this problem But that would be because I have a my pillow And my pillow can put my head down and it doesn't matter every night that I go to bed

01:20:06

I know that that pillow is going to be the same firmness every night even when I wake up in the morning

01:20:11

It's still nice and firm I love my pillow You can love it as well.

01:20:18

You can call 1 -800 -944 -5396 That's 1 -800 -944 -5396

01:20:29

And order your my pillow and maybe you can start to sleep like me and not matt. Oh wait

01:20:35

Matt you have a my pillow. I do. I love it So why can't you sleep? I think it's something i'm autistic.

01:20:43

That's why because I always andrew you never sleep No matt knows

01:20:48

I do Oh, he does. I remember we're uh talking one night in the hotel, you know, he's in his bed

01:20:54

I'm getting ready for mine and i'm talking to him. Maybe I go dude How did you go to sleep so fast he's out like that I love my pillow

01:21:07

More like you matt than andrew I have to go to a ritual Yeah, yeah, but uh, yeah, it is a good pillow.

01:21:14

Seriously. We're not just saying it Um, we had there are three sizes. I remember we got one. I tried the big one

01:21:20

And it wasn't right for me, but I ended up with a smaller one um But i'm serious

01:21:26

If if it's not there I don't want to you know, it's like okay, where is it? Where is it? Yeah That's honest man.

01:21:34

It's weird. It's a good pillow and and we've heard from some of the the listeners here who have gotten out and they i've

01:21:40

I got some emails from from some listeners and They said we didn't believe you but we tried it and you're right.

01:21:47

Yeah So it just fits right? Yeah, so let's get to cat. She's uh, she actually has a question and but it's not her question

01:21:56

She says she's got a question from her husband who's home and listening. So Yeah, go figure right?

01:22:03

No, yeah, so he's here he's actually looking at me right I see you I see you Um, so I mean

01:22:09

We're we're somewhat familiar with well He is more so than I doctrine of depravity all that stuff so he wanted me to ask about tulip and if matt could explain a little bit more about tulip and Um, you know not just for us

01:22:22

I guess for other listeners and whatnot Um, what exactly is tulip? It's a nice flower.

01:22:29

I like tulips. I prefer roses Pink jasmine all day long.

01:22:35

Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I'll try that um, but theologically speaking it's an acronym t -u -l -i -p total depravity unconditional election limited atonement um irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints and so total depravity

01:22:54

Simply says that we every human being is touched by sin In every part of what he is heart soul mind body

01:23:03

Everything and as a result of that Then he is incapable of coming to god on his own and I can quote the references, but I won't

01:23:12

And so that's total depravity. So total depravity also leads to total And it's not really the right way to say it total inability

01:23:19

But it means total inability to be able to come to christ of your own volition because the totally depraved individuals

01:23:26

Will is enslaved to sin and I got plenty of verses for that So you is unconditional election and what that means is god does not look into the future to see who's going to pick him under different Circumstances and then decides to elect or choose that person for salvation

01:23:43

That would violate james 2 2 through 4 Which deals with the issue of not showing partiality god doesn't do that In other words, he doesn't look into an individual to see anything of value in the individual

01:23:54

And then say based upon what he knows that person can or won't do or whatever it is

01:24:01

Limited atonement, uh says that um The blood of christ is sufficient to save all you know, his is infinite value, but legally speaking

01:24:10

He only bore the sins of the elect So he did not bear the sin of everybody who ever lived but only the elect of god

01:24:20

And it's called limited atonement where we calvinists Limit the scope of the atonement arminians limit the power because they say that the

01:24:30

Atonement is for everybody But it doesn't automatically cleanse you have to apply it and there's some problems there, but we'll get into that So limited atonement and Sometimes it's called definite atonement

01:24:43

And then a eye for irresistible grace and what that means is that at the time of regeneration

01:24:51

Is not dealing with the issue of um, hold on Okay potential spam might be my wife she's not feeling well today

01:25:02

Uh So at the time of regeneration a sinner cannot successfully resist the grace of god as he brings that person into a safe being state a regenerate state

01:25:13

That's what irresistible grace means. It's often misunderstood to think that it means that um

01:25:23

Irresistible grace means that you can you can resist god's grace or you can't resist It your whole life all kinds of gracious things that's not what it means it only refers to the issue of regeneration and then perseverance of the saints that When you're paid your sins are paid for when you're regenerated

01:25:40

You will persevere to the end of your life and you will not lose your salvation where you're secure in him

01:25:47

That's what it is. That's that's tulip what it stands for Thank you very much And it's all biblical

01:25:55

I love that part Yes, it is and you could get if you want matt has on amazon a whole list of his notes

01:26:05

Okay So yeah calvinism calvinism notes, I think is what's called

01:26:11

Outlines on calvinism or notes on calvin. I forgot which one. Yeah, I might be outlines I have I could check the other thing you could do is he's got a website called calvinist corner

01:26:21

Uh dot com I believe right dot com or dot org forget dot com dot com look at it right now

01:26:27

So that would be a good place. You can you can see a lot And this is on sometimes people ask there's not a lot on carm about calvinism on purpose you know because Calvinism is you know, matt is has a whole website devoted for the calvinism, but You know, he's got the apologetics to answer apologetic questions.

01:26:48

So Yeah, right, you know I defend calvin on carm i'll defend um

01:26:55

I'll defend eternal security and i'll openly defend that because uh, if you can lose your salvation then that the

01:27:04

Logical necessity is you keep it by being good And that of course is a problem but um

01:27:11

So I try and keep my calvinism off of carm But on calvinist corner and I just put a link in there did jesus teach tulip

01:27:20

And so I extracted some scriptures that I think support the idea. Yeah, jesus did teach it

01:27:27

So you guys can check it out if you want Love it. Thank you so much sure Okay, I love teaching reform theology

01:27:36

The the next one up is larry had some questions for you Sure, it's good to have larry back.

01:27:42

We haven't seen him for a very long time. Good to see you Wow, can you hear me?

01:27:48

What? Yes, I can. Oh perfect. So So I just have a question in regards, um with matt, so what is your thoughts in regards to the regular principle of worship

01:28:01

I prefer the lutheran regular principle over the reformed one the lutheran regular principle

01:28:07

Uh says that you can do anything unless scripture forbids it The calvinist one says you can only do what the scripture commands, right?

01:28:15

And so I like the one, uh, I like the lutheran one. I just do i'd like the lutheran one better because um

01:28:23

I want to be able to use uh guitars and drums and slideshows and You know and overhead projectors and things like that to be able to to aid in that and I don't have a problem

01:28:36

With that at all colossians 3 talks about spiritual songs or is it for? Talks about spiritual songs hymns and so I like it, you know, yeah, so you like it

01:28:48

But is that biblical? But is it biblical? Yeah, I think the lutheran one is more biblical

01:28:56

Well, I you know, actually I I can't tell I can't say that because I want to find scriptures that would support that view

01:29:02

What I do find is the command to worship god with uh, you know singing speaking to each other with psalms uh

01:29:10

Psalms hymns and spiritual songs singing praises to one another and so you know

01:29:17

I think I just think that the perspiration View of the regular principle

01:29:24

Is just too narrow. Yeah Um, I just do it's the only thing in perspectivism. I really don't really agree with But that's okay, you know

01:29:33

But uh, it's just too narrow. We can only do it this way a professor of mine in seminary believed in only singing the psalms

01:29:41

And I raised my hand. I said well then that means you can't say the word jesus in your your worship He says yeah, that is a problem.

01:29:48

He admitted it flat out, but but he still held to that position um I don't know.

01:29:54

I just I like more freedom in worship. I mean, maybe it's just me. I don't like hymns they

01:30:01

Do if I you know a church full of hymns, I won't go back Because I can't

01:30:06

I can't survive in it. It's a spiritual It's just me. I'm not knocking them. It just doesn't speak to me so I like to have the praise, you know, you stand up and raise your hands to the lord and Just enjoy presence and worship of one another

01:30:22

Ah, it's nice So that's why I like the lutheran one because it gives me more freedom So are you fairly um conscious of the the theological, um,

01:30:34

I guess, uh Premise of any songs that are sung. Yes Oh, yeah

01:30:40

One of the things I want to do and I started a little to test is to analyze christian song lyrics and um, so What got me on that is

01:30:51

I actually like hillsong music. I like a lot of hillsong and bethel music I'm, sorry, but I do it's beautiful now, um

01:31:00

Some of it is pretty Are you saying you like the music

01:31:07

Or are you saying you like the lyrics I like the music. Yeah the

01:31:13

Harmony the beauty the melody. I love that. Uh, yeah And personally,

01:31:19

I believe that the lord is working through a lot of them Right and that the lord is there in a lot of them

01:31:25

Um, I think we tend to fill the baby out with the bath water and there are heresies there and there certainly are

01:31:31

But there I think there's something about The free will expression of adoration to god

01:31:39

Where he indwells the the presence of his praise, but it's been mixed with a lot of bad stuff.

01:31:44

Yeah And so deciphering that is problematic so i'll listen to some um

01:31:51

Some of the praise music, you know of all kinds And I and I work in the house or i'm doing stuff

01:31:57

I'll just put it on and I have a like almost 40 songs and there's one thing on pandora that i'll listen to praise songs

01:32:04

Not one is a hymn, incidentally And um, so, you know, i'll just enjoy the presence and um, i was gonna say something.

01:32:11

What was it? Dang it Let's let's see. Oh, yeah, so In one of the songs, um, you know god blah blah blah.

01:32:18

I give you permission And i'm like what? Well, what kind of crap is that, you know?

01:32:26

And uh, that's what motivated me to go. Hey, wait a minute. I should do a thing on it on analyzing lyrics.

01:32:31

Yep Well, you know there's a fine line because matt you love heresy so I know

01:32:39

I got a problem But but there is a thing look I this is why I have an article on striving fraternity about music

01:32:46

I'm, not a musician. I don't listen to music. I listen to preaching and and podcasts and stuff like that okay,

01:32:52

I have No music on my phone at all so Wow, that's you're not you're not normal.

01:32:58

Yeah. No, I know You don't you don't need to know that to know i'm not normal. There's plenty of other reasons but dang

01:33:04

I'm with andrew on this one Oh now we got two ab abby normal people Um, but here's here's the thing

01:33:12

I think that music has A potential danger in the fact that What people focus on is the lyrics?

01:33:19

Okay. What are the lyrics? Are they biblical and they think if the if the lyrics are biblical then it's okay yet music

01:33:25

So we end up singing scripture when we have our our intellect our thinking our

01:33:31

Our emotions and then our our will our our volition What you end up realizing that the the thinking is the first line of defense against sin and If so if something can get past your thinking and get to your emotions it's easier to give into the

01:33:49

Sin to in the in the in your will therefore Music can has a potential danger because the music does affect emotions

01:33:58

And you can have great lyrics with music and that music is bringing upon Bringing out certain emotions that you're not thinking about It also

01:34:11

Can have great music as like you're saying hill song Bethel that they put great music to heretical wording and people don't even realize they're singing heresy, right and It's because it's get it had they feel good about it and because they have that good feeling

01:34:31

They think the words are good and this is how some of this heresy is coming into the church

01:34:37

So there is a danger I think there Oh, yeah, there is absolutely Yeah, so i'm a reformed baptist.

01:34:44

We actually just sing the psalms which uh, I'm not against singing hymns other songs and so forth but uh

01:34:52

Obviously there is no danger in singing god's word right And it's safe to sing the psalms, but then

01:35:01

Like I said earlier, you can't sing about jesus, you know specifically his name Yeah, and and that's a disadvantage there

01:35:08

I call that sola hymnola Or no sola somnola And then there's sola hymnola, you know

01:35:16

And then one of the one of the criticisms of praise music is they'll say one thing over and over and over again

01:35:21

And that's not biblical. I go you mean like holy. Holy. Holy is the lord god almighty. Yeah Is in church they'll say okay we're gonna sing the psalm it is to the tune of You know xyz hymn i'm like well if you grew up in this church, how would you know that tune right?

01:35:40

Well, well my issues they have to reinterpret that songs hymns and spiritual songs it's like hymns hymns and hymns when you a lot of these people do exclusive psalmody

01:35:52

Yeah, I believe the uh, the reformed baptist Position is that uh, those are just different types of psalms because obviously when oh man

01:36:02

Hymns didn't exist worship songs didn't exist. So it was just the different types of psalms

01:36:10

You really say that huh Yep I've never heard that before. So let me look at this psalms.

01:36:16

Obviously that's there in the greek psalm noise and hymns is hum noise

01:36:24

And spiritual songs Oh, no way.

01:36:29

That's interesting. So hymns and spiritual songs. What does that mean at the point in that in history?

01:36:37

Yeah um I'm looking at the word song in the greek in a lexicon.

01:36:44

Come on. Give me come on Oh you slimeball uh

01:36:50

Why wouldn't it work? Oh, I see it does. Okay a particular melodic pattern with verbal content

01:36:58

They said facing the throne and sang a new song revelation 14 -3

01:37:04

It's there too This is getting it's getting interesting. Okay, i'm going to do a little study We have someone that just came in that had a question.

01:37:10

I was going to ask you the question for them But uh someone dropped out to make room so, uh

01:37:17

Rant ral I think is how your name may be pronounced Um, but i've unmuted you or i've i've brought you in if you can unmute yourself

01:37:27

Let's see, maybe I can't i'm gonna mute Okay, so go ahead ask your your question there

01:37:36

All right. I see your lips moving, but I don't hear you We don't hear you.

01:37:42

Um And it looks like you're turned up on this end.

01:37:48

So um I'm gonna i'm gonna ask your question if you can look in the chat while you try to fix that You could check questions in there i'm going to read the question that you had so at least matt can give an answer because We have about 15 20 minutes left in the show.

01:38:02

Um, so the question that you had and What you could do is play with your mic to see if you can get it working

01:38:08

But his question was do you think that god used a reasonable? Logical process to decide our morality

01:38:18

No And I know matt you weren't here at the beginning when

01:38:24

I talked about morality and and presuppositions That I have but where do we get explore?

01:38:31

Morality is a reflection of the character of god It's not arrived at or decided as if it was a time when certain morality was not real

01:38:39

Or was not a decided thing in the mind of god So to say that god used a reasonable logical process

01:38:46

Means that it implies or could be made to mean that there is a system of logic to which god himself must appeal

01:38:53

That would be heretical to say that Logic exists because it's a reflection of the mind of god

01:39:00

And since god is eternal and the process of the mind of god are also eternal The morality of god is also eternal and never variant because it's based on his eternal immutable character

01:39:12

Therefore when it comes to us Then he is simply revealing the truth of moral things

01:39:18

It's not a logical process to arrive and decide which is and is not moral in god

01:39:23

Because that would further imply god has to learn and make decisions about what will and will not be

01:39:28

Something that's good And that's another problem. So the the question has many, uh problems woven into it

01:39:40

So killing is wrong because god doesn't kill um You know god always when he executes somebody it's killing

01:39:47

But uh killing is not wrong Murder is wrong Murder is the unlawful taking of life killing is not wrong and uh, so if someone breaks into my home and May it never happen, but I have to take that person's life to save the life of my wife and family and stuff like that Then it's not judicially wrong or morally wrong

01:40:12

And so murder god can never murder But the reason it's wrong for us to do it is because When we sin we sin against god and the wages of sin is death separation from god

01:40:26

So all sin is against god and so therefore all people Are under the

01:40:35

Subjection of god as a to be executed He has the right to execute all people because all people have sinned

01:40:42

And so it can never be murder but what we're doing when we murder somebody is we are going against the revealed law of god and He has revealed to us

01:40:53

What aspects of killing are permissible and which are not? Now we can't

01:40:59

I don't think I could haven't tried connect the logical dots But that's not an issue that I have to do god has simply revealed the issue

01:41:08

To do that. Is it right to execute all people? judicially For god

01:41:14

It would be judicially Correct and proper to execute all people because all people have broken the law and all people deserve death

01:41:23

So there'd be nothing wrong With that. Yeah, even babies. We are born by nature children of wrath ephesians 2 3

01:41:30

And the obligation of all living beings Particularly, you know humans is to love god with our heart their soul their mind and if the babies can't do that Then they would have a judgment upon them

01:41:44

But then we get into the doctrine of federal headship the representation of adam for all people and that in adam all died what that means is when he died he

01:41:54

Became sinful in his nature and then all descendants of him Also inherit a sinful

01:42:01

Fallen nature and the necessity of the fallen nature is separation from god so even babies

01:42:10

Okay, but personally I believe that god is merciful to all babies. I believe they all go to heaven.

01:42:16

That's just my opinion I can't believe it isn't right to execute all babies like you. Okay, you believe whatever you want rall

01:42:22

But um, let me ask you i'll just type it in. Are you a christian or an atheist or what? Just curious?

01:42:30

Just tell me what you know he's typing that in let me let me just say and I think this is where he's having the issue is If if god did absolutely nothing if god didn't come to earth

01:42:39

And die on a cross as a payment of sin every single human being would rightly go to hell

01:42:46

That's what we deserve. We break his law So he says starting his own new religion

01:42:52

Who is raw that that's starting my own religion. Okay, so a raw i'm just curious.

01:42:58

What are you? Um, You know, you're not a christian if you're starting your own religion and it's to say that it's either serious

01:43:05

Which means you're not a christian or you're just joking And so that's why I still need to understand

01:43:11

You know what you are what your position is. I can better cater your answers I don't believe we can assume that all babies go to heaven.

01:43:18

Um, That is in compos opposition to john macarthur's position, uh, that's just my position

01:43:25

I just assume that's the case And um, I can never be objective Because i've had to bury a baby my own baby and I just long ago just gave up trying to be objective about it because I just not

01:43:41

Not able to be and that's just where i'm at You can't I mean look matt you and I take different positions on this and we both had to Your child actually survived outside of the womb mine didn't but we both had lost a child um

01:43:57

I think we can be objective, but it's hard and but I also think that as as humans,

01:44:02

I mean when we I think that people throw out the The child of you know, what about a baby?

01:44:09

Because they have this false idea that a child is somehow sinless and innocent

01:44:16

And that's the question you know is the child sinless and innocent or Is that child

01:44:23

I mean the first act it does out of the womb Act in selfishness and crying out in selfishness.

01:44:29

I like how Bodhi bachem puts it, you know, that's it's a you know That you that child if he's 18 years old would rip your head off Right, it's

01:44:38

I think that's why he calls it a viper in a diaper it's The the child is selfish

01:44:46

And breaking god's law. It's not innocent. No, no child is innocent And that's

01:44:51

I think no child, you know, we're by nature children of wrath That's true. So raul, let me help you.

01:44:57

Uh, create a uh a religion. Okay, you want to create one? Why don't want me to help you? Want me to help you create one?

01:45:05

Would you like that? Because you touched with the moral issue So why don't we develop a moral, uh code?

01:45:13

You want to do that? It's hard. It's hard while he's he's trying to type in it.

01:45:19

Yeah He says yes, we're not evil didn't say they were evil So you see

01:45:25

Raul, see one of the things that happens a lot when I dialogue with people is they they I don't mean this in a derogatory

01:45:30

Insulting way, but they don't listen to what I say They think they hear what I say, but I don't never said children were evil but um so, uh

01:45:41

Uh, hold on andrew we're gonna you'll see what i'm going to do andrew so raul. Um, what would be you know offer?

01:45:49

A a moral absolute that we would have to have in your new religion. Uh, let's just um

01:46:00

There could be execution for the purpose of deliverance into salvation, too There's a whole other topic we get way off, but I I don't want to talk about the issue of the morality

01:46:09

Um, could you offer? A moral absolute that would have to be true for everybody in your religion

01:46:16

And when he types stuff matt i'll read what he says so folks can know Oh, are you reading it? Okay. Yeah, so so he said, uh, we don't know moral absolutes we need to be able

01:46:28

Uh, he typed too much. We need to be able to figure out moral conundrums

01:46:34

Okay, so we don't need a moral absolute so then there's no absolute moral truth. That means that all morals that are subjective

01:46:42

Which means my subjective preference and your subjective preference about what is moral?

01:46:48

um can differ and That's a conundrum Now, what do we do?

01:46:54

Since there is no standard by which we can judge whether anybody is right or wrong morally so your position then

01:47:01

Would not just leave to a conundrum but an impossibility Because you could not ascertain if anything was true or was not true or excuse me

01:47:10

True morally true or morally good or morally bad. You could not do that You don't have any standard by which you could judge anything and then all you would be offering is

01:47:19

There's nothing more than your personal preferences And if that's all you're offering then why is it that we should even consider those to be valid?

01:47:27

Okay, here's my moral absolute for critique Quote an action is moral or immoral to the degree that it fulfills or denies the fulfillment

01:47:35

Of the needs of the entities involved to the degree Those needs are needed. Um uh

01:47:43

That's just a whole bunch of doesn't make sense written between quotes, okay um

01:47:50

It just Think about it It this the sentence is not coherent

01:47:56

And the reason it's not coherent i'll show you why an action is moral or immoral to the degree

01:48:02

So now you're saying there's a degree of morality or immorality based on an action That it fulfills or denies

01:48:10

The fulfillment fulfills the fulfillment of the needs of the of uh the entities

01:48:18

What entities? cats dogs Uh, what to the degree which you have another thing to the degree that those those are needed

01:48:28

So what's the things that are needed the needs of the entities are needed? It's the tall it's just Um, it just doesn't make any sense.

01:48:35

Your statement has no coherence So the point i'm trying to make roll is that Who are you to answer back to god the thing molded will not say to the molder?

01:48:47

Why did you make me like this? Does not god have the right to make one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

01:48:55

He says how do you figure out your morals? Jeez, I just read the bible

01:49:00

See my morals are not based upon me. My morals are based upon the revealed word of god

01:49:06

And so when god reveals himself and the morals that are reflecting his character

01:49:12

And he reveals them in the word then I try and be humble And the humility is manifested by submitting to the truth of the of the lord god

01:49:23

It becomes arrogance When you say that the revealed word of god is not

01:49:29

The standard of morals I will judge morals myself That is actually a form of arrogance which is immoral so the

01:49:39

Conundrum for you i'll use your word the conundrum for you now is that you are advocating a moral standard based on the immorality of your position the immorality of your position is that you are being

01:49:58

Acting in an arrogant manner to say that you are the one who decides what is morally right or wrong for people

01:50:05

And that is truly arrogant only the creator of the universe who knows all things has that right to reveal what that is

01:50:12

I create new plant species. How can you tell me if it is moral to create say a new species from a cactus?

01:50:18

You don't create a new species. What you do is you use the existing genetic information that would be there inside of a living organism

01:50:27

And then what you do is you manipulate what doesn't belong to you the information belongs to god

01:50:33

It is his he's the author of the information just as i'm the author of my book the book belongs to me

01:50:40

But uh for you to take life and manipulate it and say you're the creator is another form of arrogance so we're all um

01:50:49

I think you're really screwed up. He says manipulate manipulation already

01:50:55

Uh exists materials Is not creation? Well, then why are you using the word create to create means to bring into existence out of nothing?

01:51:04

but if you have um plants and you Manipulate them genetically then you're simply not creating

01:51:12

You're altering He says I create new species uh via He's got a little using myotic spindle inhibitors, they do not cross fertility back with the original

01:51:25

Well, you can do that if all you want um That means you're working the cellular level.

01:51:30

But here's the thing you're borrowing from god's world to do this You don't create new species via you know and if you define speciation as the ability not to to uh cross uh breed and that's the the uh,

01:51:45

Speciation wall or divider. Well, then what you're doing is is you're saying you create something and create a new species

01:51:51

But you really it's really not that Um, you know if I were to learn how to manipulate something and turn a gene off So that uh, it can't breed with another something.

01:52:01

Hey, I created a species. Look at me. That's that's not it see the issue is that the information in the

01:52:08

The cell that you're manipulating the genetic level That belongs to god It's what you're doing is immoral

01:52:16

You have to understand something all actions by us are moral actions

01:52:23

Ephesians 1 11 says that god works all things after the counsel of his will Now that includes the direct decree and the indirect decree of god

01:52:33

Which means that all things that occur occur by the will of god and since everything that god does is morally, right?

01:52:41

Therefore everything we do is connected to god in his decrees and therefore everything we do has a moral value to it

01:52:48

So what you're doing is immoral and the reason it's immoral is because You're not doing anything for the glory of god.

01:52:56

You're doing it for your own arrogant gain Manipulation of what he has so you are being immoral from the very beginning in this

01:53:06

That's what's going on there. What does the bible teach about poly? Deploying it uh occurs in nature.

01:53:12

Well, what I would say is that god provided the necessary information for Speciation and subspeciation through microevolution through the reduction or altering of the allele frequency

01:53:23

That's what I would say and it's just something that already is there within the gene pool that god created

01:53:29

And you should be familiar with the issue of epigenetics, which clearly Is problematic for the neo -darwinian theory of evolution because epigenetics

01:53:37

Talks about the activating and deactivating of certain genes based upon environmental Pressures.

01:53:42

Well, this is because god had put the information there And how do you calculate the moral value of an action when you go to?

01:53:50

Amazon they have what's called a moral calculator and then you can just add hate plus killing

01:53:55

Equals and then you can it comes out with murder. I think that's you know, i'm kidding. Of course Um, I do not make the world better in my life

01:54:04

Better so is it morally biblical moral biblically you do make the world better and my life better What you're doing is immoral because what you're doing is not for the glory of god

01:54:15

And so therefore you are immoral It doesn't mean that there can't be some incidental benefits on a temporal level for people

01:54:26

An atheist could discover, you know an antibiotic that could kill certain really bad, uh germs

01:54:33

And that that's that happens But he's not glorifying god and so we could not say on the divine level that his action is a moral action

01:54:44

What we would say is that on the human level people would say it's good But on a human level everything's subjective.

01:54:51

So goodness Only is defined Tautologously, that's not a great word. But what it means is

01:54:58

If it aids in survivability, then it's good. But what is good that which aids in survivability?

01:55:04

It's a tautology. It's circular. It doesn't provide any information of morality Only of survivability.

01:55:10

So if what you're talking about is making the world better How do you know what's better because someone lives longer how you know, it's it's better because they live longer is living longer better Yes, why because this means they're living longer it doesn't answer any questions

01:55:23

You're just sitting there And you're having a problem bridging what's called the is ought barrier

01:55:30

The is ought barrier. Let's say that you have a drug that that enables someone to live another 50, uh years

01:55:37

Due to um the ability to resist all kinds of germs. He lives 50 years longer average.

01:55:42

Is that good? Well, I would say Maybe maybe not We'd have to have a standard by which we could measure goodness

01:55:50

What would happen is that people said well the standard is that we average we live an average of 75 years

01:55:56

And now we live an average of 125 and since the standards have exceeded therefore it's good based on that standard

01:56:02

But what makes that standard the right standard of a moral judgment? The problem with the secularists is that they adopt what's called pragmatism

01:56:11

Morality is developed out of pragmatism. It works. So therefore it's good Well, how do you know it's good because it works this kind of circular thinking doesn't accomplish anything.

01:56:20

It's not a moral issue So we get back to the absolutes of morals What we're finding out is that if you know who god is and apparently you don't

01:56:28

Nothing you can do is morally pleasing to god and that's what matters so what you have to do is hope that your

01:56:35

Gene manipulation will only benefit. Well, it will only benefit people in some areas and then you can just pat yourself on the back and say

01:56:44

Therefore I declare that it is good and what that is is another form of arrogance manifesting

01:56:51

Delivering I can't keep up. All right. Okay. So what if you eat 50 more years of damnation on yourself?

01:56:57

Yeah so matt, let's um Because we're at the end of the show. I'm trying to see from vincent if there's uh going to be an after show or not

01:57:04

I haven't heard but what I want to do roll is if after we go off the air

01:57:09

I don't want you to leave what I want to try to do is help you get your mic working so that Maybe next week we can get you in earlier and we can make sure that you could be heard

01:57:21

That would be really good. Um You know, I mean it'd be great if matt's mic worked as well as yours right now just saying

01:57:30

No, but but let's let's see if we can get your your mic up and work and we could do some of the technical stuff after and um

01:57:38

No, I can't hear you now. I see I see you trying um so Uh vincent, you're still here.

01:57:45

Is there going to be an after show? Yeah, give me a second. I'll get one up in like 30 seconds Okay, so the after show is put on by the council.

01:57:53

The council is a group of guys reformed guys that are on Online they are in discord a lot having great discussions doing some evangelism

01:58:02

And they like to do the after show basically the after show is for folks that want to jump in there

01:58:07

We give the folks who are here the link so you can get over there and get in and it's less moderated and so basically you know, it's

01:58:18

More opportunities to speak. There's no kind of set topics. It can go all over the place They go for about an hour and maybe eventually that'll become a podcast just saying

01:58:26

I know uh, john wants that so Speaking of podcasts though.

01:58:32

I should mention that this uh this What you're watching right now live will become a podcast and you can find it on the christian podcast community

01:58:41

That is one of our podcasts. It's called apologetics live thunk of that. Huh? Who would have thunk that?

01:58:48

Anyway, the you can search for apologetics live or if you want to get all of the podcasts that are in the christian podcast community

01:58:55

You can actually search for christian podcast community and get all of them. Uh right now we have the rap report

01:59:02

Theology answers apologetics live but we have coming soon very soon theology gals and Did a k and you say well,

01:59:14

I haven't heard of did a k did a k with justin peters. It is a brand new One that is coming um, and then we have a podcast about podcasting that'll start in january and if you

01:59:28

Have podcasts if you are a podcaster Roland rola is uh putting up a thing that says thanks for folks who don't

01:59:35

Who won't be able to see me? Put your note back up and i'll present you to everyone so everyone can see your note while I talk

01:59:42

Besides you're better looking than me. Anyway, so So, uh, if if you are a christian podcaster and you want to Uh get some help podcasting you want to get into podcasting you

01:59:55

Have a podcast you just want to get a larger audience We're going to be opening up sometime in january, you know in a limited way, but then february march

02:00:04

We're going to be opening up more podcasts So that folks who want to get podcasting this is a community.

02:00:10

It is not a network There's a difference with a network you host on them. They are the ones that that kind of run everything

02:00:17

We are basically if you're a network, you can be part with us We're going to be christians that are working together to promote one on one another, uh help one another it's a crazy concept

02:00:27

I know but But we don't have to all agree with one another either. I mean We can even have matt on there.

02:00:33

Yeah but The sigh from matt

02:00:43

But uh, but yeah, so that's on coming we got um we're gonna see um

02:00:50

Matt is I think I think what the karma is working on some on some new, uh books for the schools

02:00:56

So hopefully you're the schools that you've had for years. How long ago have you did you write those?

02:01:03

I don't know 10 12 15 years ago Yeah I need to go through them and revamp just to do it

02:01:09

But they need to be a new venue a better venue and stuff like that. Yeah, so that I think that's one of the things in possibly in the works and But for folks you can go to karm and be part of those schools

02:01:22

Those have a cost with them. Uh, we have a slot But we we say

02:01:28

I say it over the radio too, you know, we use them to help pay the bills But if people can't afford them and really want them just let us know and we'll give them to you for free

02:01:37

Yeah so Another and so you have the karms you have the karm will have some overlap with what we have at striving fraternity academy

02:01:45

Uh, now ours are free to watch they're on youtube We both have things on systematic theology and it'd be good to take both because we both have two different views of Theology and they'll give you a difference give you better rounding of of the scriptures

02:02:01

One thing's radical, but we don't know what One of them is heretical, but we don't know which one though.

02:02:08

Oh, yeah, we do mats. Um where he disagrees with me He'll say me where he'll say my we're at disagrees with him no, but i'm just being more humble taking the high road that's all

02:02:21

For a change You're gonna be how after last week when you ripped it to me like the entire two hours um

02:02:28

But we have that has no logic. You have a class on logic We have a class on how to interpret the bible and world religions so that you're going to get some differences there

02:02:36

Uh, they're a good Source for folks to to get uh some teaching so um with that,

02:02:44

I I encourage you to check those things out i'm going to drop the link here for folks who want to join the the uh, um the hangout um, let me get

02:02:55

The the council hangout i'm going to drop that link in here. And so I'll give matt i'll give you a minute to get over there before I drop that link onto youtube

02:03:08

And so folks we appreciate you coming. I hope that you find some value in this if you did would you share it?

02:03:14

Share it with others some people like the video format some people like the audio format, so usually by tomorrow saturday

02:03:23

Monday something like that. This will be out in podcast form and you'll be able to pick that up And it just it's a matter of how quickly we can get the show notes and everything done with it

02:03:33

And the audio convert, you know editing done try to get it out quickly So usually by monday, this is an audio that you can then share with folks if you subscribe to apologetics live

02:03:45

So we thank you guys for joining for listening for having your questions Uh roll don't don't take off so we can try to work out your technical things.

02:03:53

I hope we can get you in next week Folks if you have questions you have things that stump you that's what this is for.

02:04:00

It is a training For folks to be able to learn better Apologetics and also for people that just want to disagree with matt or I we don't mind that we