June 5, 2020 with with Samuel Frost & Don K. Preston Debating “Full Preterism”; Day 3: Audience Questions

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June 8, 2020

June 5, 2020 IRON SHARPENS IRON Radio’s DAY #3 of DEBATE on “FULL PRETERISM” TODAY!!: FRIDAY, JUNE 5th, 4-6pm EDT: AUDIENCE Q & A!!! Full Preterist: Don K. Preston Former Full Preterist: Sam Frost

00:05: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:10: Carwile, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.
00:57: And now here's your host Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon
01:09: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:20: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this fifth day of June 2020.
01:30: And I'm thrilled that we have finally arrived at the day for day number three of our full preterism debate between Don K.
01:40: Preston, a world -renowned advocate of full preterism, and Sam Frost, who is a former full preterist, and you can get their more full introductions in more detail by listening to the first day of this three -day debate, which originally took place on Thursday, May 28th.
02:03: And you can hear those archived recordings of the first two days at ironsharpensironradio .com
02:11: and click past shows podcast and you will see them listed fairly near the top of the list of the previously aired programs.
02:24: Today we are predominantly going to be taking listener questions because of the fact that we hardly had any time at all during the first two days of the debate and we know how much debate audiences love to participate with questions.
02:40: So we wanted to make sure that you did have a fuller opportunity to have your voice heard or your questions answered.
02:50: But before we do that, each of our debaters is going to give a seven -minute recap of what took place in the last two days of the debate.
03:01: And then each of the debaters will have three minutes for rebuttal. And we're going to start with Don K.
03:07: Preston. If you could give us a seven -minute opening statement, giving us a recap of the debate thus far.
03:16: All right, very good. Well, first of all, before I start, let me say it's great to be back. I appreciate it and I'm very much looking forward to this
03:25: Q &A session. I hope, you know, as you said, most of the questions so far have been to me.
03:30: I hope a bunch of people will email you. I just posted on about seven or eight sites on Facebook, inviting them to send their questions in for me or for Sam.
03:40: So hopefully that will be seen very, very soon. In the meantime, here we go.
03:47: All right. Well, in the first two nights of this debate, in night number one, I affirmed that the second coming of Christ, which is the time of the resurrection, was to be in the lifetime of the
03:59: Thessalonians. Paul wrote to Thessalonian Christians living 2 ,000 years ago. That's absolutely beyond dispute.
04:07: Those people were being persecuted. That is absolutely beyond dispute. I pointed out that it was the
04:13: Jews who were persecuting them. Sam Cross denied that, claiming that it was simply the, quote, countrymen of the
04:21: Thessalonians. But according to Acts chapter 17 and 1 Thessalonians chapter 2, the countrymen who were persecuting them were, in fact, the
04:31: Jews doing the persecution. And I pointed out that God promised those
04:37: Thessalonians, those living, breathing Thessalonians, that he was going to give them relief from the
04:42: Greek word, onesis. Onesis, when used with philipsis, is relief from whatever pressure, philipsis is pressure, whatever kind of pressure is being brought to bear.
04:53: The pressure being brought to bear against the Thessalonians was persecution. It was not a mental state of mind.
05:00: It was persecution. Paul did not promise them simply consolation or comfort.
05:06: He promised them relief from that pressure, quote, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.
05:13: In response, Sam Cross said, well, 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 is not even a second coming passage.
05:20: And I hope everyone really caught the power of that. If Sam Cross is right on that, you know,
05:26: Sam made a big deal that if Preston is right, it is used, the church has been wrong for 2 ,000 years.
05:32: Well, Sam Cross took a position, takes a position, 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 is not a second coming passage.
05:39: Yet the church for 2 ,000 years has posited 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 as a second coming passage.
05:46: Therefore, if Sam Cross is right, then the church has been wrong for 2 ,000 years.
05:53: Then we went into a discussion of the resurrection. I pointed out that the resurrection of 1
06:01: Corinthians 15 would be in fulfillment of Hosea chapter 13 and Isaiah chapter 25.
06:07: It would be deliverance from the death of Hosea 13. I pointed out from the text,
06:13: I did not impose one single thing onto the text, as Sam Cross says that I do.
06:19: I observed from the text that the only death in the context is the death that comes directly from sin.
06:28: When Israel died, he sinned. Well, he didn't die physically the moment he died.
06:35: Since physical death was not the death of Hosea 13, but it was separation from God, alienation from the fellowship of God, and since the resurrection would be restoration from that very kind of death, then that means that since 1
06:53: Corinthians chapter 15 would be in fulfillment of Hosea 13, that the resurrection of 1
06:59: Corinthians 15 would not be resurrection from biological death. I confirmed that by going to Isaiah chapters 25 through 27.
07:10: In Isaiah chapter 25 and verse 8, it serves as the foundation of Paul's resurrection doctrine of 1
07:18: Corinthians 15 exactly like Hosea 13 does as well. And that resurrection is posited at the time, number one, it's posited on Mount Zion.
07:30: Number two, it is posited at the time in which the city, the fortified city, which is
07:35: Jerusalem and the temple would be turned over to the foreigners. I confirmed that by going to Isaiah chapter 27 in which it is emphatically declared that the time of Israel's salvation
07:50: Israel's salvation being the resurrection from the dead of Isaiah 25, 9 and following,
07:56: Isaiah 26, Isaiah 27, 2 and following, that that salvation would be very emphatically when the fortified city would be destroyed, when the altar of the temple would be turned to chalk stone, and when the city, or excuse me, the people whom the
08:16: Lord had created would no longer find mercy. I pointed out that this is taken directly from Deuteronomy chapter 32, which is a prediction of Israel's last days, not a prediction of the end of time, not a prediction of the end of the
08:32: Christian age. It is about Israel's last days. Thus, Isaiah 27, 25, 6 and 7 in its prediction of the resurrection twice, actually more times than that, but twice, it is emphatically specifically posited at the time of the destruction of the city and the temple and the destruction of old covenant
09:00: Israel. Sam Frost never responded to that. He simply tried to dichotomize.
09:07: He tried to create a bifurcation from in that day in Isaiah 27 and Isaiah 25 between the events of the
09:16: Messianic temple and the events of the resurrection. I'm sorry, that simply does not work.
09:23: And so on and on it went. I presented one passage after another exegetically.
09:29: I didn't impose a thing in the world on it. For instance, back to 2 Thessalonians chapter 1,
09:35: I pointed out that Paul is citing, as most scholars agree, he is citing
09:41: Isaiah 66, 15 and following of the coming of the Lord in flaming fire. Well, the coming of the
09:47: Lord in flaming fire in Isaiah 66 is a prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem versus 3 and following.
09:56: And that coming of the Lord in flaming fire is what was anticipated by Paul in 2
10:01: Thessalonians chapter 1. Therefore, 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 is not a discussion of the
10:07: Thessalonians receiving some kind of mental comfort from Jesus's ascension, but rather receiving relief from their persecution at the coming of the
10:16: Lord in flaming fire to take vengeance on those Jews and casting them out of his presence.
10:25: They would be punished with everlasting destruction. Only one people ever dwelt in the presence of the
10:32: Lord and would be cast out for persecuting the saints. And that is old covenant Israel, according to Galatians 4, 22 and following.
10:40: I'll let that suffice for my recap. Great. And now, Sam Frost, you have a seven -minute recap.
10:51: All right, let me get my time started here.
11:02: In review, we have seen where Mr. Preston declares the second coming of Christ, the events as Paul described in 1
11:10: Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, Philippians 3, 21,
11:16: Romans 8, 19 through the following. Several other texts have all been entirely and completely fulfilled in 70
11:22: AD when the Jerusalem Temple was sacked by the Roman army under the command of General Titus.
11:29: We noted that in order to do this, Mr. Preston must redefine commonly understood terms like death, resurrection, body, salvation, and others in such a way that is entirely at odds with the
11:43: Christian faith, historically speaking. That is, whether or not one is Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Coptic, or Protestant, these terms must be redefined in order to fit the framework that ends in 70
11:55: AD with all prophecies fulfilled at that time. Even within the debates of liberal critics of the
12:01: Bible and conservative scholars, these terms still have the fundamental meaning that they have had for 1 ,900 years.
12:08: Preston maintains that he is, in fact, not at all redefining these terms, but that the Church has redefined the actual terms as they were used in the
12:16: Bible originally, that virtually every churchman and scholar from all four quarters of the globe has radically altered the meanings of these terms, missing the true fulfillment in second coming
12:26: Christ and the resurrection of the dead altogether. It does not seem to appear to Mr.
12:32: Preston that the early Church did, in fact, engage in other definitions of these terms but sought to locate their sphere of meaning in a spiritual fulfillment, one entirely divorced from this earth, this life, and this body, that salvation is rooted solely in the intellectual apprehension of the mind, so that if one has the knowledge of Jesus Christ and believes in him, then one has been placed in the body of Christ, and that this, and this alone, is the full meaning of salvation, that it has nothing to do with the ending of physical death or suffering or even evil on this earth, which
13:07: Preston is on record as asserting will continue on for infinity. However, since salvation in the second coming associated with that and the resurrection of the dead as a result are all rooted in spiritualizing these ideas in terms of knowledge, or as some of them say, it's not about substance but about one's stance before God, or as I used to preach at their conferences, it's not a tissue issue but a covenant issue, and hence the reason why
13:34: Preston wants to label his brand of hyper -preterism as covenant eschatology. We have seen, for example, that at the end of the thousand years, which
13:43: Preston believes ended in 70 AD, Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. Well, that's not who you think it is.
13:50: It is, rather, as Mr. Preston admits in our debate, old covenant J -ism thrown into the fires of the
13:57: Jewish war ending in 70 AD, which it didn't actually end there but continued in the skirmish of the
14:02: Kittos War of 115, 117, and the Bar Kokhtar Revolt in 32 and 36
14:08: AD. Preston also redefines the resurrection of the dead not in terms of what is normally thought of in terms of 1900 years of scholarship to this day, but a corporate body resurrection of a singular change from the old covenant body into the new covenant body, or the body of Christ.
14:26: For Preston, there is no real distinction between the body of the human being at the right hand of power, Jesus, the
14:31: Lamb of God, the individual, and the body of Christ, the church of believers, because Preston jettisons this distinction almost altogether.
14:39: Without going into the rather detailed and elaborate way by which such a concept of resurrection is defended and defined, suffice it to say that all of this, including a rejection of progressive sanctification, new heavens and new earth, incorruptible body, and the like, is all pinned down for the sake of the way
15:00: Preston and others that follow him define what they call the time text. The time text are the main materials by which the hyper -preterist gains its initial attraction.
15:10: Their mantra is, timing determines nature, meaning the timing of the second coming and resurrection determines the nature of how those things were fulfilled.
15:19: And since they believe the New Testament teaches that the timing was 70 AD in the Jewish war, then the nature of resurrection and second coming cannot be what has been commonly understood, obviously.
15:32: For Preston, dead bodies were not read in 70 AD and neither does what he calls a five -foot, five -inch
15:38: Jesus come floating down out of the sky. And since death is destroyed upon the second coming of Christ, then death, for all obvious reasons, is not physical death as that's still around.
15:49: Death must mean something else. Resurrection must mean something else. By locating these things within an attempt to make it about the changing of the covenants from old to new, they seek to define death as separation from God and resurrection is more or less reconciliation with God, exclusively in those terms.
16:09: Rather, for us, the nature of what Paul clearly expounded upon in terms of bodily resurrection, which the early fathers centered in on that definition precisely because Jesus, the human being, was bodily raised.
16:21: We celebrate an empty tomb. They got that idea from Paul who argued that if the dead are not to be raised, then neither has
16:27: Christ who died and was buried been raised. It would seem that this is as straightforward as one can get, but not to Mr.
16:35: Preston. These commonly understood terms by most members of churches across the world presently and historically are, we are told, because they are ignorant of real
16:44: Bible study or in -depth Bible study and that such terms are erroneously understood and defined because in their minds no one has really dug into the
16:53: Bible to come out with the definitions they have been teaching since roughly Max King began to develop it in 1970.
17:00: We can see such dialogue that the hyper -preterist and the student of the Bible, wherever you may find them in the local church congregations, are two ships passing in the night using the same terminology but having completely different definitions and conclusions and that the ramifications of such ideas have a tremendous impact on just what the church is and its purpose and function and what the future, if infinity, can be called a future, orientation as it means.
17:26: What is its purpose, its function, and its goal? It's telos, it's teleology. Hyper -preterism becomes an esoteric religion, a cult of the mind, captured by its slogan, timing determines the nature, and all things were fulfilled in 70
17:40: AD by which every verse in the Bible is to be read and interpreted in that framework.
17:48: Well, thank you, Sam. And now we have three -minute rebuttals for each of our debaters and Don Preston, you may begin with your three minutes.
17:59: Okay, let me reset my stopwatch here. All right, here we go.
18:07: Well, I think it's absolutely fascinating, but it's more than fascinating, it's absolutely revealing.
18:14: In my brief recapitulation, I pointed out several facts directly from the
18:20: Bible. I did not redefine anything. I took statements directly from the pages of Scripture.
18:30: And I reemphasized simply what those passages of Scripture say, just as I did in the first two days of this debate.
18:39: And yet, what does Mr. Frost offer us? Well, it can be summarized in one word.
18:49: He offered us ridicule. He assumes, and he says, well, once again, if Preston is right, the church has been wrong for 2 ,000 years.
19:00: Well, let me point out once again, if Sam Frost is right on 2 Thessalonians chapter one, and oh, by the way, let me point out, if Sam Frost is right on 2
19:08: Thessalonians chapter two, he takes a position on that passage, by the way, that cannot be found in the
19:16: Creed. And oh, by the way, Sam Frost's entire eschatology is at total variance with the
19:21: Westminster Confession of Faith. So if Mr. Frost is right, the Westminster Confession of Faith is wrong in its eschatology.
19:30: And if Mr. Frost is right, the church has been wrong on 2 Thessalonians chapter one and chapter two for 2 ,000 years.
19:38: I would remind the audience that ridicule is not refutation.
19:48: And all we got for seven minutes was if Preston is right, the church is wrong.
19:55: And he says, Preston, over and over, Preston must redefine death. Well, how am
20:01: I redefining death when I acknowledge what the Bible says? For instance, when Paul said,
20:07: I was alive once without the law, the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
20:13: Am I redefining death by pointing out that that is spiritual death? Oh, by the way,
20:18: Mr. Sam Frost denies his own record many, many times over as rejecting the very idea.
20:26: Certainly rejects the terminology of spiritual death. The church for 2 ,000 years has believed in the reality of spiritual death.
20:35: Mr. Frost denies that. He over and over again, he says, Preston is in violation of history.
20:42: And even the skeptical scholars, because everybody knows what the body is.
20:48: Well, not everybody understands the body like Sam Frost does, or even as historical
20:57: Christianity does. There are many who have understood it differently. And time texts are critical.
21:05: Amen and amen. Well, thank you, Don. And now we have our first question, which is for Don Frost.
21:14: Susan, I get a three -minute rebuttal. Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry. I'm sorry about that, Sam. That was a mistake.
21:20: Forgive me for that. No problem. All right.
21:28: First off, with the way that Don Enderby stated that the time texts are critical, which has been my point, the time texts are the end -all, be -all.
21:39: Without the way that they interpret the time text, most notably that the resurrection and the second coming was to occur within the way they interpret these time texts, then without that, without that foundation and platform, there is no preterism.
21:56: It goes, it's out the window. But it is by that very thing, as Don said, they're absolutely critical.
22:02: Right at the end, he said, absolutely critical. Amen and amen. Absolutely. That's exactly what
22:07: I said. As far as denying the Westminster Confession of Faith, I'd like to know where.
22:15: Bodily resurrection? Nope. Self -same body? Nope. Second coming in the future? Nope. New heavens, new earth?
22:21: Nope. I'd like to, Jesus is a human being at the right hand of the Father, body, soul, and spirit, the same body that he was raised in?
22:29: Nope. I'd like to know where I'd go on the issues fundamental to the
22:35: Westminster Confession. I'm extremely thoroughly familiar with. I'd like to know where I disagree with it all.
22:42: Again, this shows the total variance, where Don wants to say that he's reading the Bible. It's the Bible that's doing this.
22:49: Well, Don apparently can't make a distinction between what the Bible says and his interpretation of the
22:55: Bible. It's very kind of a, that can be dangerous when one begins to do something, because if the
23:02: Bible is saying what Don says, and it says it so plainly and so clearly, then not only have 1900 years of scholars just been way, way off, they don't even know how to fundamentally read the
23:14: Bible, which is interesting because he wants to go to Isaiah 25, and he talks about Hebraic mindset and all this bunch of other stuff, but every
23:24: Jew has understood that basically as resurrection of the dead. That's a resurrection passage. Don does not touch the idea where it says the cloud that is over all the nations, not just Israel, all the nation is over death.
23:41: Death affects every single human being, according to Paul in Romans chapter 20. Death has come to all people.
23:48: And so this death that is over all people will be swallowed up in victory.
23:54: Don, of course, knows that did not happen in 70 AD if we're talking about death understood.
24:00: So he has to redefine it. And then after redefining it, reads it into the Bible and says,
24:06: I've quoted the Bible. I've just taught what the Bible says. Well, you have to first buy into the framework before you can get his definition in order to claim that what he's saying is the
24:17: Bible. And he's not done that yet. He's just reading within his framework and within his lens.
24:25: And that's my three minutes. OK, now we have a first question from a listener today.
24:33: This is Susan Margaret with a question for Don Preston. And all of our questions will be answered in the following time frame.
24:43: The one being asked the question has two minutes to answer it.
24:49: And then his opponent will have 90 seconds to respond. This is more time than we gave during the other two days of the debate, because we have more time to take questions.
25:00: There will be on several occasions questions that are equally brought to both of you.
25:07: And in that case, you will both have two minutes to respond or answer the question.
25:13: And Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, asks of Don Preston, if everything is fulfilled that was prophesied in the
25:26: New Testament in AD 70, do humans still await in our future either an eternity with Christ of other bliss and joy or torment and damnation in hell if we are lost?
25:47: OK, let me get my clock here. Thank you,
25:53: Susan. Excellent question. Point number one, if all things are fulfilled. Well, Jesus said in Luke chapter 21 and verse 22, speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem, and I believe
26:02: Sam Frost still believes that these be the days of vengeance in which all things that are written must be fulfilled.
26:09: Now, if it be rejoined, well, he just talked about all things concerning Jerusalem. I would agree with that because the destruction of Jerusalem is the time of the new heaven and new earth.
26:19: It is the time of the salvation of the remnant. It is the time of the salvation, but the resurrection, as I have demonstrated repeatedly from Isaiah 25 to 27.
26:30: So there's no question that biblically and, you know, again,
26:36: Sam Frost says, well, I'm reading something into the text. He hasn't even tried to show where I've read something into the text of Isaiah 27 when that resurrection would be when the fortified city would be destroyed, the altar would be turned to chalkstone, the people would be destroyed.
26:53: He hasn't touched it. I didn't read that into it. But secondly, if everything is all fulfilled, do we have an eternity waiting with Christ?
27:01: Amen and amen. Revelation 14 and 13. At the coming of the son of man on the clouds of heaven, what do we find?
27:08: We have the declaration of the angel of God saying, blessed are the dead who die in the Lord. From henceforth, yea, they shall rest from their labors.
27:18: Here we have the unmitigated promise that after the parousia for those who die. Now, Sam says no more dying after the coming of the
27:26: Lord, but here's dying after the coming of the Lord. And for those who die, guess what?
27:32: They have a blessedness that was not present prior to that time.
27:38: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Now on what? From the second coming.
27:45: They shall rest from their labors. Okay, Sam Frost, you have 90 seconds.
27:53: Well, I would believe traditionally that when death is removed and swallowed up in victory, that all shall stand before the throne of Christ, as Paul explicitly states, quite in line with his
28:07: Jewish heritage, and that the just and the unjust will be raised from the dead, and that each man will give an account and be judged according to the deeds of which he has done.
28:19: This is explicitly taught in the scriptures throughout the both Old Testament and New Testament.
28:26: Paul is echoing that sentiment. In Romans chapter 2, he echoes that sentiment. He states it again in several other places, as the
28:35: New Testament also states it in several other places, particularly in 2 Corinthians 5, where he says we all must stand and give an account of the things done good or evil in the body.
28:48: So that, to me, is the standard traditional view, but the traditional view only is what it is because they got it from the scriptures.
28:58: That's the image and the picture that's given to us. And again, we find this in Judaism as well.
29:04: We find that belief whether you're reading the Dead Sea Scrolls, which I just finished re -reading, a good bulk of those again, and it's right there in what it is that they believe that all men, kind of the just and the unjust, will give an account and that justice will be served ultimately and finally, and that there is an eternity in the lake of fire and that there is an eternity in a new heaven and a new earth.
29:27: Not just heaven only as in Preston's view. Preston's view, you die, you go to heaven, and that was the ultimate goal.
29:33: It has nothing to do with this earth. There will be no new earth. Nothing is going to be restored on this earth.
29:39: This earth is going to continue on as it is for infinity. Coronavirus, riots, wars, persecutions, whatever, rape, murder, that's going to go on for infinity.
29:50: Heaven is the ultimate goal. The church is correct. The bible just repeats that.
29:57: Okay, we have another question for Don Preston.
30:04: We have John in Bangor, Maine who asks, If Jesus Christ has already come in finality in 8070, do you still practice the
30:19: Lord's Supper and for that matter, baptism, and does the church still exist?
30:28: I'm writing this down, by the way, so that I hopefully represent correctly.
30:35: Very good questions, common questions. First of all, obviously, the question concerning the
30:42: Lord's Supper, 1 Corinthians 11, verse 26, as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show forth the
30:48: Lord's death until he comes. Now, this is the only passage that anyone could go to to even remotely suggest that the
30:55: Lord's Supper should be continued. It is my position that the word until there, which normally, yes, would entail a point of termination, but it doesn't always have to have a point of termination.
31:09: I am of the opinion that the, let's see, how to apply this, that the
31:16: Lord's Supper being the antitype of the Passover, the Passover, when fully instituted, that is, when it was not fully participated in as a memorial until they were fully delivered out of Egypt.
31:31: They took it the night it was instituted. They took it in the wilderness swandering. They took it when they entered into the promised land, and they took it when they entered into the promised land in a new, fulfilled way.
31:42: Likewise, the early church took the supper the night it was instituted. They took it during the 40 -year second
31:49: Exodus, and I believe that we take of the supper today as a genuine memorial of what?
31:55: Of deliverance from death. It is therefore extremely probable and likely that the supper is to be continued.
32:05: I see no, I see no suggestion anywhere in the New Testament that baptism was to end.
32:12: There is no baptize until the Lord comes. Nothing of that sort.
32:18: And so that's ultra brief, and I produced an audio series on the
32:24: Lord's Supper that should be available on my website, so I'll have to leave it at that.
32:30: Okay, Sam Frost, you have 90 seconds to respond. Yeah, those are good questions there,
32:38: John. First off, we can see for the Lord's Supper as Paul talks about it in Matthew 11, that he says, this is my body.
32:48: This is a remembrance. So this gets right to the heart of the matter with Mr. Preston and concerning the body of Jesus as a human being.
32:55: We're not eating the church. The church is not eating its own body. So there's a distinction between the body of Christ, as Paul uses metaphorically, and the body of a human being, the glorious body, which is at the right hand of the
33:07: Father, Jesus of Nazareth, raised from the dead and to ascend it and is exalted with all power and glory, of which the communal meal that that is and represents represents his death.
33:19: His body. This is my body. This is my blood. He no longer has a body. It's a memorial of what?
33:28: Baptism for Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 is directly rooted in the hope of the resurrection of the dead.
33:34: Paul actually asked that very question. If there is no resurrection of the dead, why be baptized?
33:40: For Don, there is no resurrection of the dead. That's past. It's an undeal. It happened in 70
33:46: AD. Or as Michael Miano said in the debate that I had with him, the resurrection in the last day,
33:52: John chapter 6, 33, through the followingly says this seven times, I will raise them in the last day.
34:00: That, that happened. So baptism is directly related to resurrection of the dead.
34:05: But if it's already happened, then what's the point of baptism? Okay, we are going to our first station break.
34:13: And when we return, we will have a question posed to Sam Frost. And if you have a question of your own, please keep the questions brief.
34:23: We don't need anybody teaching lessons to our debaters or to the audience with lengthy tomes on what you believe.
34:32: Keep the questions brief and please identify who the question is for, whether it's for Don Preston, Sam Frost, or for both.
34:40: You may ask both a question. But we are going to our break and we're going to be right back after these messages.
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35:43: French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.
35:54: Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.
36:05: For more details on Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding go to ptlbiblerebinding .com
36:12: That's ptlbiblerebinding .com I'm Dr.
36:30: Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,
36:41: Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
36:48: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim
37:05: Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.
37:12: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.
37:21: For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net
37:27: That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.
37:37: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
37:58: We are excited to announce another new member of the
38:05: Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family, Bhanu Gadi, owner of three
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38:19: Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.
38:27: Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.
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38:46: Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com. That's L -E -E -S drugs rx .com.
38:55: Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program. Greetings in the matchless name of our
39:01: Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.
39:11: In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.
39:16: I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.
39:23: He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness and the beauty in what
39:29: God has designed and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust
39:38: God's design. And once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.
39:45: When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be very serious.
39:55: Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not add up in praise to our great
40:01: God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.
40:08: Thank you. Hi, this is
40:18: John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the
40:26: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
40:38: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the
40:44: Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.
40:50: This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.
40:56: And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
41:03: I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
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41:24: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Welcome back.
41:30: This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, today is day number three of our debate between Don K.
41:38: Preston, world -renowned advocate for full preterism, and Sam Frost, who is a former full preterist.
41:48: And today we are predominantly taking questions. In fact, for the remainder of the program, we are exclusively taking questions from listeners.
41:57: Each debater has two minutes to answer the question when it is addressed to him, and his opponent has 90 seconds to respond.
42:07: And now we have a question for Sam Frost. This is from Timothy in Fremont, California.
42:20: And Timothy asks, I just have to pull up his question. Let's see here.
42:27: Timothy asks, let's see.
42:33: Had it right in front of me. Oh, here it is. Sam, are you a Roman Catholic? I notice that you quote from the
42:41: American Bible and the Douay -Rheims Bible, and these are Catholic versions. No, I'm not.
42:53: I'm not Roman Catholic. As a scholar, I utilize as many translations as I can.
43:02: The Bible program that I have has most translations there.
43:09: So when you work with Greek or Hebrew, you utilize, you're seeing what other translations have, and then you also consult the commentaries.
43:19: And the way that I was trained is off limits in terms of translations that are out there that have a reputable source to them.
43:31: That doesn't make them infallible. As my Greek professor always told me, Greek is not
43:37: English. And the English will never capture the fullness of what Greek is doing, because they're two different languages.
43:45: But no, I'm not. I'm not not Roman Catholic. However, my point to bringing out
43:53: Roman Catholic aspects is to show that in spite of our very sharp differences, even in Eastern Orthodoxy or the differences in Protestantism, we're all united on this.
44:10: And that, to me, that's a mind -boggling thing in a world that is just in disunity the way that it is, the way that we're currently watching.
44:20: That yet in all four quarters of, like for 1900 years, have maintained a unity on these fundamental matters in spite of the very sharp disagreements that we have for other matters.
44:32: On these matters, we agree. in Preston's view, even that agreement is now a point of disunity.
44:45: It's just another, you know, just another part of the problem. And on Preston, you have 90 seconds to respond.
44:56: Don? Is Don there? I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. I had my mic turned off.
45:03: Can you hear me now? Yes. So you have 90 seconds to respond. I'm sorry.
45:09: Yeah, there's not really an awful lot to respond to there. Sam says he's not a
45:14: Catholic and that's fine. But once again, he appeals to what other uninspired people believe, and that's supposed to establish what we must believe and that that really proves nothing.
45:28: And what's interesting to me here is that Sam takes the position is that, OK, in Christendom, you can have all millennialism, post -millennialism, dispensationalism, all sorts of pre -millennialism, but we cannot have preterism.
45:43: We can have certain degrees of preterism, but not all of it, even though, as countless thousands of people have observed, if we are consistent in our preterism, we will be full preterists.
46:01: Even N .T. Wright, who is not a full preterist, has been told and it's been written up on many, many occasions that if he is consistent with the things that he says, he would be a full preterist.
46:14: And he goes, oh, no, no, no, no, I'm not that. But once again, even his adversaries, those who oppose him say, no, if you are consistent with what you are saying, you must be a full preterist.
46:27: And so it's really quite disingenuous, number one, to appeal to uninspired people, because no matter how well -intentioned they are, they're still uninspired.
46:39: I'm going to accept any day of the week the inspired statements of the
46:45: Bible over any creed, over any counsel. Now, by the way— Okay, you're out of time,
46:50: Don. Okay, now we have to go to our next question, which will be for Don Preston.
47:01: And let's see. Actually, okay, here it is.
47:11: We have Justin in Jemison, Alabama asks
47:17: Don Preston, since you believe that all prophetic parts of the Bible have been fulfilled, do you believe humanity and the present universe will come to an end at some point in the future?
47:29: Or do you think they will last forever? If you believe they will last forever, how do you get around the laws of thermodynamics, which show the universe to be inevitably winding down out of energy?
47:44: If you believe that humanity will end, then why wouldn't God reveal anything about this in his word, especially since God revealed details about creation to us in Genesis 1 and 2?
47:56: And you can let me know if you need any of that repeated. And you have two minutes to respond,
48:03: Don. Okay, well, that's quite an involved question. Point number one, since I believe the whole thing is fulfilled, yes,
48:11: I believe Luke 21, verse 22 that I've already cited. Point number two, do
48:18: I accept the law of thermodynamics? I admit that as a scientific law that so far as we know, although fusion can be discussed, but that's not the place, this is not the place for that.
48:30: But the real question is, does the Bible, do the biblical writers, when they discuss the passing and the growing old of heaven and earth, are they talking about literal material creation?
48:43: Well, we're often told, well, Psalms 102, that speaking of the heaven and earth, they shall grow old, you shall fold them up as a garment.
48:51: Well, the trouble with that is that passage is unequivocally positive in the context of the time in which the old people of Israel would be destroyed and God would create a new people with a new name.
49:04: It is absolutely not about the material, physical heaven and earth.
49:09: Point number three, as I pointed out a few moments ago, and that is in the new heaven and new earth is invariably positive at the time of the destruction of old covenant
49:21: Israel. Isaiah 65, verse 15, speaking to old covenant Israel, the
49:26: Lord God will slay you. Verse 17, for behold, I create new heaven and new earth.
49:33: Isaiah 66, destruction of old covenant Israel. Verse three and following, new heaven and new earth.
49:40: Verse 17 and following. Therefore, the reality is the Bible simply does not describe, it does not address directly whether or not heaven and earth, material heaven and earth will pass.
49:52: We could appeal to Ecclesiastes 1, 4, generations come, generations go. The earth abides forever.
49:59: I'm more than willing to accept what the Bible says on that. And Sam Frost, you have 90 seconds to respond.
50:07: I think the Bible loudly states that there will be a last day. Jesus mentions
50:13: I will raise those whom the Father has given to me. In the last day, those who believe in me have eternal life and I will raise him up in the last day.
50:23: I will raise up in the last day all those who have been drawn by the Father. He says this over and over again in John chapter six.
50:32: So there is a last day. If you think about it, if death is swallowed up in victory, then that is a last day of history as we know it.
50:42: If death is swallowed up, the covering that covers all the nations is swallowed up, then that is an end.
50:49: That is a last day. That is a finality. Paul mentions this in Acts chapter six.
50:55: He has fixed a day in which he will judge the world and he has given us assurance by this by raising
51:01: Jesus from the dead. Again, if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised. Since Christ has been raised, the dead most certainly will be raised.
51:10: Well, when? Jesus says in the last day. Again, if death is swallowed up in victory, and death is what it means in the scriptures, and that's going to be the last day, then history is going to be unalterably changed in a new heavens and in a new earth.
51:34: Well, we are out of time before the midway break, and we are going to enter into that break right now.
51:40: If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
51:46: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Keep your questions brief. Please let us know who the question is for, whether it's for Don, Sam, or both.
51:56: And also, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.
52:01: Many people are sending in questions with none of those items in there.
52:08: So, please be patient with us now as we take our midway break. It's a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1
52:17: FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they air this show twice daily in a pre -recorded format, and the
52:27: FCC requires them to localize Iron Trump and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida with their own public service announcements and other items that they broadcast.
52:37: While we air our globally heard commercials. So, please try to write down as much information as possible provided by our advertisers as you can so you can more successfully and frequently patronize them.
52:49: And also, please write in questions. And specifically, or should
52:55: I say, more importantly, we need questions for Sam Frost because we have an abundance of questions for Don Preston.
53:05: And I would request especially that the questions for Sam Frost come from those especially, not exclusively, but especially from Don Preston's position.
53:17: So, we're going to be right back after these messages. Don't go away. This is
53:30: Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
53:36: Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support
53:41: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our
53:57: Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.
54:04: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
54:17: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
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55:03: Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.
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56:18: today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
56:33: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.
56:55: I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my
57:03: New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the holy scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.
57:19: I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,
57:25: Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net,
57:33: that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711, that's 631 -696 -5711.
57:43: Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
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59:11: In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,
59:17: I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made, and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.
59:24: He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what
59:29: God has designed, and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust
59:39: God's design. And once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.
59:46: When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be very serious.
59:55: Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great
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01:06:00: Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen and we are having day number three of our debate on full preterism between Don K.
01:06:09: Preston world -renowned advocate for full preterism and Sam Frost a former full preterist and if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com
01:06:22: chrisarnzen at gmail .com and we would prefer that those who are siding with Don Preston send in questions for Sam Frost since we have an abundance of questions for Don Preston already but I'm not going to exclude more questions for Don I just wanted to make it clear that we're in more urgent need of Sam's of questions for Sam.
01:06:49: We have let's see we have Justin in Jemison Alabama who asks
01:06:57: Sam Frost do you believe any prophetic material in the Bible was fulfilled in 8070? Hello Sam.
01:07:07: Yeah, I'm here. Do you believe any prophetic material in the Bible was fulfilled in 8070?
01:07:13: That's Justin in Jemison Alabama's question. Yeah, of course I do.
01:07:19: I don't know of a scholar or commentary that I've read from go all the way back to the second century onwards that knew of the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple which they make reference to.
01:07:38: That's a pretty staple. The question is how much of that is fulfilled in the script of Jesus?
01:07:47: Unquestionably, I think it's pretty subtle how it makes reference to the coming destruction when not one stone left upon another.
01:07:55: What he does not do and I think what he explicitly does is separate out that event from end of the age and what they were expecting and again to understand what end of the age meant.
01:08:08: Read the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was the time when Jesus said in Matthew 13 that all of the wicked will be removed and all that causes stumbling will be taken away.
01:08:21: And that wording, that verbiage is something that's straight out of not that he ever read the
01:08:28: Dead Sea Scrolls or anything but that was in the air at the time. So some things were fulfilled in 70
01:08:35: AD. Okay, Don Preston, you now have 90 seconds to respond. Don?
01:08:46: Don, are you there? I'm sorry, I turned it off.
01:08:51: Here we go. Yes, of course, I'm glad to know that Sam still admits that some prophecies were fulfilled in AD 70 and he asked the question and he says the question is how much?
01:09:02: Well, once again, Luke chapter 21 and verse 22 discussing that fall of Jerusalem, Jesus said, these be the days of vengeance in which all things that are written must be fulfilled.
01:09:14: I would also point out that Revelation chapter 10, 7 and following that in the days of the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the mystery of God foretold by the prophets would be finished.
01:09:25: The seventh trumpet sounds at the time of the destruction of the city, quote, where the
01:09:30: Lord was crucified, that city which is also called Sodom and Egypt.
01:09:35: Well, interestingly and significantly enough, only one city was ever spiritually called
01:09:41: Sodom. That was Old Covenant, Jerusalem. Old Covenant, Jerusalem and Israel was likewise called
01:09:47: Egypt in different places. And so, yes, the question is, how much was fulfilled in AD 70?
01:09:57: Luke 21, 22 answers that definitively. OK, we have a question from Anthony in Smithtown, Long Island, New York for Don Preston.
01:10:12: If Jesus died for the whole world, which includes the earth and the earth will always remain the way it is unredeemed, wouldn't that make
01:10:22: Jesus an incomplete savior? Can you read that again?
01:10:29: Sure. If Jesus died for the whole world, which includes the earth and the earth will always remain the way it is unredeemed, then wouldn't that make
01:10:42: Jesus an incomplete savior? I'm going to assume that I understand the question.
01:10:51: I'm not sure. Perhaps some clarification would be in order. I'm not sure if Anthony is suggesting that Jesus died for material, physical creation, or as I like to refer to it, bugs, slugs and mosquitoes.
01:11:06: I find nowhere in the Bible that Jesus died to redeem animals. I find nowhere in the
01:11:12: Bible that Jesus died to redeem trees or any physical creation.
01:11:18: He died for mankind. When Jesus gave the Great Commission, he said, go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
01:11:26: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Well, bugs, slugs and mosquitoes have no opportunity to hear and to believe and to obey.
01:11:38: Therefore, if I'm understanding the question correctly, Anthony, and I hope
01:11:43: I am here, then we have to define the world that Jesus died for.
01:11:50: And Romans chapter 8, when Paul describes the coming redemption, by the way, the redemption that was very near.
01:11:58: And oh, by the way, folks, I beg no apology whatsoever for appealing to time text.
01:12:03: I think it's just sad that Sam Frost does nothing but scoff at them. Tries to avoid them. Over 200 time statements in the
01:12:10: New Testament and old Sam Frost can say, so see, restroom relies on time statements.
01:12:15: Well, so what? Jesus and his apostles made those time statements. It behooves us as biblical students to honor those time statements.
01:12:24: But nonetheless, that redemption of creation is the redemption of those who at the parousia would be manifested as sons of God.
01:12:33: I don't find anywhere in scripture that bugs, slugs and mosquitoes will one day be manifested and revealed to be sons of God that belonged to humanity.
01:12:44: Those obedient to Christ. Okay, Sam Frost, you have 90 seconds. Yeah, this gets right to the heart of the matter.
01:12:54: And I want you to see how he deprecates the creation of Genesis chapter one as simply bugs, slugs and mosquitoes.
01:13:01: That's basically Preston's view. And that what we see right now in the news and in media and all the rest of it is for infinity.
01:13:11: Every crime and everything that you see is for infinity. God has no purpose in any way, shape or form of ending it.
01:13:21: That's his view because that would be to redeem bugs, slugs and mosquitoes. But Paul is quite adamant and quite
01:13:28: Jewish when he writes, I consider the present sufferings are not worthy to be compared with the glory to be revealed in us.
01:13:36: The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who submitted it in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
01:13:54: And this gets right to the heart of the matter of the incarnation of the word who became dust, who became of the image of Adam himself, who was raised and glorified and ascended into heaven, which
01:14:05: Don, again, does not believe that Jesus took his physical body into heaven glorified.
01:14:11: But again, this goes right to the heart of the matter for the early church because they, as Greeks saw, who were super spiritual and spiritualized everything, what they saw in the incarnation was a unification of substance of creation and of God, who is spirit brought together in Jesus Christ, of whom all things are summed up under his feet, placed under his feet, and will be restored under his feet and in his rule.
01:14:40: We're out of time. It jettisons everything off into another world. Okay. All right.
01:14:45: We have, let's see, we haven't heard from a listener in Italy in quite a long time.
01:14:53: Lorenzo in Perugia, or Perugia, Italy. And I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing that,
01:15:00: Lorenzo. This is a question for Sam Frost. If I understand correctly, you said that you don't think 2
01:15:07: Thessalonians 1 talks about the second coming of Christ. How can you say that if right in 2
01:15:13: Thessalonians 2, chapter 1 pulses concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him and then gives the signs that must precede that coming?
01:15:25: You have two minutes, Sam, and then Don will have 90 seconds. Yeah, I'm currently working on a book on 2
01:15:34: Thessalonians and noting all of the numerable problems out of the several commentaries, technical commentaries that I'm working through, both historical and presently, of citing the numerous, numerous, numerous issues that are going on in 2
01:15:51: Thessalonians 2 that regards interpretation. 2 Thessalonians chapter 1,
01:15:58: Paul is stating there, if we read the Greek, if we read the Greek text as it is written in the
01:16:03: Greek, and I too believe that what Paul wrote in Greek is the word of God. It says,
01:16:09: Since it is a just thing with God to repay to the ones who are afflicting affliction to you and to the ones being afflicted rest with us in the revelation of the
01:16:23: Lord Jesus Christ from heaven to angels of power over him and fire of the flames that's
01:16:28: Daniel 7, 9, there are fiery, fiery flames, giving, and giving present active indicative, giving full vengeance to the ones not knowing
01:16:38: God and to the ones not obeying the gospel of the Lord. This is language straight out of the
01:16:44: Old Testament. The Greek is in the Septuagint is straight out of the Old Testament. God takes vengeance against those who trouble his people.
01:16:54: This is what he does. It's not a description of what he's going to do 30 years from now or 100 years from now.
01:17:02: It's a description rather of what he does. And Paul is saying to those who trouble those who are his, he gives trouble.
01:17:11: He takes vengeance upon them. Not a one time thing. It's a thing that it's in the Old Testament.
01:17:16: This is language of the Old Testament of what God does against the Midianites or the Moabites or the Idionites. He takes vengeance against them.
01:17:23: So that's what Paul was saying there in 1 Thessalonians or 2 Thessalonians 1. All right,
01:17:30: Don Preston, you have 90 seconds. Once again,
01:17:36: Sam Frost ignores the fact that 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 is drawing directly on Isaiah chapter 66, which was a prediction of the coming of the
01:17:45: Lord in flaming fire to take vengeance on the Jews at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.
01:17:53: And he completely ignores the fact that the judgment that was to be brought at the coming of the
01:17:58: Lord would be to cast, be cast out of the presence of the Lord with everlasting destruction.
01:18:04: As I pointed out earlier in Galatians chapter 4, that was the Jews and the Jews only who had dwelt in the presence of God and were to be cast out.
01:18:13: You will notice that he renders the text that in the revelation of the
01:18:19: Lord. Well, Sam Frost is playing a little bit of a game here. It is the Greek word in, but every
01:18:25: Greek lexicon will tell you that in has a temporal significance and is rendered.
01:18:32: And by the way, in 59 out of 60 translations, it is rendered when the
01:18:39: Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven. Point number four, don't forget if Sam Frost is correct in his rejection of second
01:18:47: Thessalonians chapter 1 as a second coming text, then the whole church for 2000 years has been wrong.
01:18:56: And so when he condemns Preston for being standing in isolation from church history,
01:19:03: Mr. Sam Frost stands side by side with me in rejecting number one scholarship in the translation of second
01:19:11: Thessalonians chapter one. Number two, Sam Frost rejects the correlation with second with Isaiah chapter 66.
01:19:20: He rejects and ignores the correlation of being cast out of the presence of the
01:19:25: Lord at the coming of the Lord. Finally, Paul said second Thessalonians chapter one, that all of this would be in the day when he comes to be revealed in his saints.
01:19:37: Okay. We have a question now for, let's see here.
01:19:47: We have a question now for Don Preston. Actually, I'm sorry. It's a question for both of our debaters.
01:19:55: This is from, and I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing your name, Gerowen in Emmen, the
01:20:02: Netherlands. E -M -M -E -N, the Netherlands. This is for both debaters.
01:20:09: We'll start with Sam Frost. You each have two minutes. When sin came into the world, did it cause any changes in the biological nature of plants, humans, or animals?
01:20:19: And if so, will it change back to its original state in the new heaven and earth? Sam, you have two minutes.
01:20:29: I believe that Paul makes it clear, and this is also brought out in numerous, again,
01:20:35: Jewish texts written before the New Testament, that creation itself, as he made clear, creation groaneth, and that creation was subjected to decay.
01:20:46: And I believe that the strong case can be made that in, for example, in Genesis chapter 6, it says, the
01:20:55: Lord saw how great man's wickedness was on earth, had become, and that every inclination of the thought of his heart was evil on the time, and he was grieved that he had made man.
01:21:04: And then he said, and then it goes down in verse 11, now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and it was full of violence.
01:21:12: And God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on the earth had corrupted their ways.
01:21:18: We also note in Leviticus, in the law, in the Canaanite purge where he goes in, it's because the earth is defiled.
01:21:26: This is in Leviticus where he, or Numbers rather, where he tells them he needs to go in, they need to cleanse the land and purge the land of the people because the earth itself is defiled because of sin.
01:21:40: And so, what are the blessings of the covenant to Israel? Is it death and destruction and chaos and wilted trees and rivers that are dried up and constant thunderstorms and typhoons and nope.
01:22:00: What are the blessings? What are the material, physical blessings? What would happen, let's say, if Israel obeyed
01:22:07: God, completely and entirely obeyed God, what would God do in return?
01:22:13: He would bless, replenish, and make it so abundant that your bowls would be rolling over you wouldn't have enough to contain all of the fruit and everything else.
01:22:23: These are the blessings of the Lord, which in turn is going to ultimately be seen in new heavens and new earth.
01:22:32: Okay, we have 90 seconds or actually, I'm sorry, two minutes since it's for both debaters for Don Preston.
01:22:42: Okay, it's a great question. Sam wants to convince us that sin brought physical corruption.
01:22:49: Okay, if that is the case, then why does not forgiveness of our sin bring instantaneous incorruption?
01:23:00: If sin brings biological death, and let me remind you, Sam Frost is on record saying there is only one kind of death in the
01:23:07: Bible. That's physical death. Well, if it is the case that there's only one kind of death in the
01:23:14: Bible and since the wages of sin is death, then what should that mean? It should mean that if I am forgiven of sin as a child of God, then
01:23:23: I have no sin, therefore I should not die. Well, Jesus said in John chapter 8, verse 51, a passage
01:23:29: I appeal to in the first two nights of the debate, which Sam Frost totally ignored. Jesus said, if a man believes in me and keeps my saying, he will never die.
01:23:41: In other words, according to Sam's paradigm, which he imposes onto the text, he will never experience physical death.
01:23:49: Obviously, that's pretty false. It is empirically false since, you know, there's been a 100 % death rate since Jesus uttered those words until the present time and will always be the case.
01:24:03: And so when Sam appeals and says, well, sin brings corruption, you know, physical nature was changed because of that.
01:24:12: Then that we have to ask ourself the question, if physical or if sin, brings physical death, physical corruption, physical mortality, then forgiveness of sin should bring instant immortality, instant immortality.
01:24:32: Now, since that's not the case, then Sam Frost's entire premise is proven to be false.
01:24:41: Okay, we have a question for Don Preston from Eddie in Hoppog, Long Island, New York.
01:24:48: If there is only one body of Christ and that body already glorified, then you yourself as a member of Christ's one body are a glorified member.
01:24:59: Therefore, when you sin, you do not, therefore, when you sin, you do so in a glorified state.
01:25:05: So the question is, can you still sin in heaven? If not, what accounts for that?
01:25:11: If so, and sin always produces some form of suffering, is there suffering in heaven?
01:25:17: And Don, you have two minutes. Let me finish writing this down as I understand it.
01:25:29: All right. Well, first of all, I believe there's a basic misunderstanding here of what it meant to be glorified.
01:25:36: In so many passages of Scripture, by the way, in 2 Thessalonians chapter one, when it says that this punishment of the persecutors and the relief from persecution of the
01:25:48: Thessalonians, it would be in the day when he comes to be glorified. There was, as numerous, numerous, numerous scholars acknowledge, there was in the ancient
01:25:58: Near East, and it's still present even in the ancient Near East today, the concept of glory versus shame.
01:26:06: Now, we might have a concept of glory that it is, as these very same scholars know, totally removed and divorced from that ancient concept, that very real concept.
01:26:17: And here's what that meant. If you were sick, with a fatal disease, you were considered to be dead.
01:26:24: To recover was, guess what? Resurrection. If you were humiliated financially, if you were humiliated socially, if you were humiliated economically, or in some family situation, then that was your shame.
01:26:42: If you were being persecuted, that was a matter of shame. However, to be vindicated was to be glorified.
01:26:51: It did not change the substance of your body in any way whatsoever. But it changed your status from oppressed, from quote, dead, unquote, from being ostracized, to being vindicated, to being proven to be right.
01:27:08: That is precisely what is at stake. 2 Thessalonians chapter one, the Jews were persecuting the saints.
01:27:15: The Jews were going to become the persecuted. Thus, the saints were going to be glorified.
01:27:20: No change in biological substance whatsoever. We just simply need to look closer at the definition of these words, such as glorification.
01:27:31: Okay, Sam Frost, you have 90 seconds to respond. Well, this again goes right to the heart of the matter.
01:27:40: If Jesus died to put an end to sin, and I still sin after I've received him as my savior,
01:27:46: I should stop sinning immediately. But I don't. And if it follows that if I'm already glorified because I've received
01:27:54: Jesus into my heart, and when I die and I go to heaven, since nothing of substance changed, then
01:28:00: I should continue to sin in heaven. And in fact, Robert Buna, who follows Don Preston, stated that across the table for me when we went out to lunch at a conference in Indianapolis.
01:28:11: And he stated quite plainly to me that, yes, sin will still be possible and committed in heaven.
01:28:17: Because it has nothing to do as Don said, and as I said in my opening, with substance. It has nothing to do with any of that.
01:28:24: See, this is what Don does. He detaches all of that. It's purely knowledge. It's a purely intellectual thing.
01:28:31: It has nothing to do with whether you sin or whether you die or whether you have any wicked desires or non -wicked desires.
01:28:38: Change, nothing, nothing. Even glorification, as Don has just admitted, has absolutely nothing to do.
01:28:46: It's purely metaphorical. And that's it. If you're persecuted, you're dead.
01:28:51: But if you're vindicated, you're alive. And now he's using ancient Near Eastern sources to tell us what the
01:28:57: Bible says and what everybody for 1 ,900 years has understood by being dead and by being alive.
01:29:04: This goes right to the heart of the matter. Thank you. Then we are going to go to our final break right now.
01:29:12: And after that, we will resume taking questions. And once again, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com.
01:29:19: chrisorensen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence. People keep sending in questions without their city, state, or country of residence.
01:29:28: Please correct that. And we look forward to hearing from you. And we'll be back after these messages.
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01:43:48: This is Chris Arnzen and I actually have a question for our debaters. Who last had a question directed toward them?
01:43:56: Was it Don or Sam? Do you remember? I believe it was
01:44:03: Don from Eddie. Okay. Okay. All right.
01:44:09: We have John in Carlisle, Pennsylvania who has a question for Sam. As a partial preterist,
01:44:16: I find many points of agreement with Don Preston that you seem to differ on. Are you a partial preterist?
01:44:23: I assume that the debate was to compare the differences between the two views. Also, don't you find the use of the phrase second coming misleading since that term appears nowhere in Scripture?
01:44:36: Using it seems to imply that only one coming remained after the
01:44:42: Incarnation when in fact there are two, the destruction of Jerusalem and at the end of history on the last day.
01:44:50: Please comment. You have two minutes.
01:44:56: Well, I cover that more in depth in my book, the Parousia of the
01:45:02: Son of Man. And I utilize the term second coming because of its understanding and parlance, just the way that the term is used.
01:45:14: And then we begin to dive into the actual way that the term came about.
01:45:19: So I don't have a problem using the term second coming. I don't believe that 70
01:45:26: AD, the war of the Jews was a coming of the
01:45:31: Lord in the way that that language is used, particularly in Matthew 24.
01:45:38: I don't believe, for example, we've been going back and forth on the second
01:45:43: Thessalonians chapter one. So I thought Jesus was to appear in Jerusalem, but apparently for Preston, he also appeared in Thessalonica, which
01:45:51: Paul said he would descend from heaven to the Thessalonians. So did he appear in Jerusalem and then appear another time over in Thessalonica to relieve them of the pressure of those that were troubling them?
01:46:08: Prior to that, they weren't persecuted anymore. There was no more persecution in that area.
01:46:13: But I'm not a partial preterist. I wouldn't call myself a partial preterist, no.
01:46:24: I understand what is called a preterist hermeneutic. I use that particularly in Daniel and in a lot of places what would be called preterist.
01:46:32: But again, these terms have to be defined in a way that the person is using them, because as we see on Facebook and other things, they're used in a quite broad way.
01:46:43: So I wouldn't call myself a partial preterist, but I'm not a dispensationalist either, which preterists seem to think you're either a full preterist or you're either a dispensationalist, which is just not the case.
01:46:58: Okay, Don Preston, you have 90 seconds to respond. All right, very well.
01:47:05: Well, I found it more than interesting that Sam says he's not a partial preterist, but he said that some prophecy was fulfilled in 8070.
01:47:13: Not all of it, but some. So that makes him a partial preterist. He may not like the term, but it's certainly applicable.
01:47:20: Secondly, he says, I don't believe that 8070 was the coming of the Lord. Well, once again, it's strange that while Sam says he stands firmly on church history, in this regard he is at direct odds with Forrest of Jusepius, who said of the fall of Jerusalem in 8070, commenting on Zechariah 12 -14 and Isaiah 66, that one could literally say that the
01:47:43: Lord came in flaming fire in the destruction of Jerusalem in 8070 at the hands of the
01:47:49: Romans. So Sam is not with church history on that. You know, some of the early church fathers most assuredly believed the coming of the
01:47:57: Lord was at that particular time. And then Sam tries to draw a false dichotomy when he says, well, you know,
01:48:06: Paul was promising the Thessalonians coming, but Preston thinks it was coming of Jerusalem.
01:48:11: That's really quite a facetious argument, if I may say so as kindly as possible. The Thessalonians would be able to know that the destruction of Jerusalem, the center and the focus and the source of their persecution at the hands of the
01:48:23: Jews, was now lying in ruins. The Sanhedrin was in disarray.
01:48:29: The specific form of persecution against them had been broken, and Paul's promise to them had been fulfilled.
01:48:40: It's not an either or. Okay, we're out of time. Now we have a question.
01:48:47: I'm usually giving first names, cities and states only, but since this person is fairly renowned in this subject,
01:48:57: I will give his full name. His name is Edward E. Stevens, president of International Preterist Association, and he has a question for Don Preston.
01:49:10: And he asks, let me just pull up that question.
01:49:17: You teach that Jesus divested himself of his individual flesh and bone human body at the
01:49:25: Ascension, and that his human flesh and bone body was then totally consumed in fire before Jesus entered into the most holy place of heaven.
01:49:36: Two questions about that. This implies that Jesus no longer has his individual human body in heaven now, but you claim that Jesus does have a body in heaven now.
01:49:46: Are you referring to the collective body of the church? If so, when did that collective body arrive in heaven, and if it was in AD 70, do you believe that Jesus was without a body in heaven during the time between the
01:50:00: Ascension and the Parousia? That will be the first question, and then there's a quick follow -up.
01:50:09: Okay, I've got two questions here. Yeah, I'll just let it stick at the one.
01:50:16: Okay, all right, let me see if I can do this. Well, I am on position,
01:50:22: I have taken the position that point number one, God prepared a body for Christ.
01:50:28: That body was for a sacrifice, and it was the offering of the burnt offering of the red heifer sacrifice offering.
01:50:36: It was also a burnt offering, and as such, it was to be consumed. That was the nature of type and antitype.
01:50:43: Point number two, the days of Jesus's flesh, according to Hebrews chapter five and verse seven, were passed.
01:50:51: I have been on record very clearly that Jesus Christ has a body in heaven.
01:50:58: I have never denied that. So for anybody, and especially for Ed Stevens, to suggest that I have denied that Jesus has a body in heaven is simply a misrepresentation, just like Sam likes to misrepresent me on that position.
01:51:13: I have said that Jesus does not have a physical flesh and blood and bone body in heaven.
01:51:22: I don't know what's wrong, or excuse me, I don't know what's so difficult to be understood about that position or about that answer, and I would appeal to 1
01:51:32: Timothy chapter six and verse 15, where Paul told
01:51:37: Timothy that he was to keep the commandment, the commandment that he had made before Pilate, and to be faithful to that commandment until the appearing, the epiphany of our
01:51:51: Lord Jesus Christ, who in his own time will manifest or make known who is the only true
01:51:59: God, the blessed and only potentate, king of kings, lord of lords, who alone is immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light.
01:52:07: A watch whom no man has seen or can see. Jesus going back to the father is now true
01:52:18: God, unseen and unseeable. Okay, Sam Frost, you have 90 seconds.
01:52:28: Yeah, this is another area where if you're not careful,
01:52:37: Don plays a shuffle game here. So the body that Jesus walked out of with the tomb is not, and Don is very clear here, is not the body that he has in heaven.
01:52:47: So he got another body. There's two bodies now. Jesus has two bodies. It's not the one that he came out of the tomb with.
01:52:55: That's not in heaven. That was digested, burned up. So he got another body.
01:53:00: What that body is, we don't, Don doesn't tell us. He never does. But it's another body.
01:53:08: Is it a human body? Is it a spirit? Is it in the form of substance? Does it have arms and legs or what?
01:53:14: But it's a body, so he calls it a body. So now Jesus has got two bodies. But if he died on the cross and went to the father in his soul while his body was in the tomb, and that body was raised from the dead, and then for 40 days he walked around in that body, then divested that body and got another body, then he died again.
01:53:35: So Jesus now has died twice. The absurdities and ramifications that go along with this, and I know what
01:53:45: Ed Stevens is doing incorrectly. He's doing it correctly. This is a point of variance between Ed and Don.
01:53:54: But it's quite plain that through the veil of his flesh we enter into heaven.
01:54:01: If he no longer is in the body that was raised from the dead and glorified, then what do we enter in through?
01:54:10: It becomes, this becomes very problematic. Okay, we're out of time. And we have time for one more question.
01:54:18: This will be for Sam Frost. And this is from John in Weatherford, Texas.
01:54:27: You made a good point that we should understand terms such as body, death, and resurrection as a first century
01:54:33: Hebrew would understand them. But shouldn't we also understand the time statement words, such as near, at hand, and shortly, the same way assuming they are just as inspired as others?
01:54:47: Especially as found in the book of Revelation that is bookended with such statements.
01:54:53: And you have two minutes, Sam, and then Don will have 90 seconds. That's an excellent question.
01:55:01: And let me ask you how any person uses those terms. I've translated several
01:55:07: Greek classics, and those terms are used in those classics. And not once have I ever found an occurrence where near or soon in those days or in our days means anything remotely 30, 40 years away.
01:55:22: When I say to anybody, I'll be there soon, I don't mean the possibility of five years.
01:55:28: When I say to anybody, I am near, I'm close by, I don't mean I'm five years away.
01:55:34: So the normal usage of that language cannot possibly mean, unless you want to abuse language, that near means possibly 37 years away, because Jesus in Mark 1 13 comes out and says the kingdom of God has drawn near.
01:55:49: If he's talking about 70 AD there, then he's about 37 years off. But I guess near means 37 years.
01:55:56: Maybe it could. I don't think that it does. I've never heard anyone use it that way. If I said to my wife,
01:56:02: I'm about to take out the trash, and what I mean by that is eight years, I'm going to catch a lot of flack for that.
01:56:10: Near in the lexicons, yeah, thank you. Near in the lexicons also has a spatial meaning to it.
01:56:17: For example, this keyboard is near me. This candle is near me. My cell phone is near me.
01:56:23: It's close by. It's near. It's right here. And this is what Jesus was saying, because that's also a lexical meaning of the term.
01:56:33: Look, in any lexicon, I have several that go back to the 19th century, all the way up to the present time, and I find it in every single one of them.
01:56:42: In fact, Jesus drew near to Jerusalem because he was a couple miles off. That's what the word means.
01:56:48: It doesn't mean that he's 50 million miles away from Jerusalem. It means that Jerusalem is in sight.
01:56:54: He's near Jerusalem. But all of a sudden, the word near means 38 years in precedence. Okay, Don, you have 90 seconds.
01:57:05: Well, it's interesting to me that Frost sets himself against this world scholarship, all the while claiming that he stands on historic scholarship.
01:57:13: Let me read a quote from Kurt Allen, who is one of the most noted Greek scholars of the modern day, commenting on Revelation 2212.
01:57:20: In the original text, the Greek word used is taku, and this does not mean soon in the sense of sometime, but rather now, immediately.
01:57:29: Therefore, we must understand Revelation 2212 in this way. I am coming now, bringing my recompense.
01:57:36: The concluding word of Revelation 2220 is, quote, he who testifies to these things says, surely
01:57:41: I am coming soon, unquote. Here again, we find the word taku, so this means I am coming quickly, immediately.
01:57:48: This is followed by the prayer, amen, come Lord Jesus. The apocalypse expresses the fervent waiting for the end within the circles in which the writer lived, not an expectation that will happen at some unknown point
01:58:01: X in time. Just repeat this, but one in the immediate present.
01:58:06: You see, Mr. Frost imposes a totally artificial hermeneutic on the text. For Sam, any passage that uses a time word in a non -eschatological way, well that means temporally near.
01:58:20: But if it's a prophecy and a prediction of eschatology, oh, it cannot mean temporal eminence.
01:58:27: That is false. It is artificial to the core, and scholars throughout history, some of the finest
01:58:34: Greek scholars in the world, reject Sam Frost's hermeneutic on that. Okay, we're out of time.
01:58:39: In fact, we're out of time for the program. Wow, this did go by like a speeding bullet, and I actually hope to have our debaters return to debate another subcategory, if you will, under the umbrella of full preterism.
01:58:56: We don't have confirmations from them yet. I just impose this challenge to them both right now, but hopefully you'll be hearing good news from me soon, and I am really sorry folks.
01:59:06: All of you who took the time to write questions, excellent questions that we didn't have time to read, hopefully if our debaters return, you'll be able to have your questions read on air at that time.
01:59:19: And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.