Mormon Struggles with Truth

Apologia Utah

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How are you today, sir? Good My name is

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Wade Hi Yeah, we just wanted to talk

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We have some gospel tracts that we're giving out, too we're coming here because we see some fundamental differences between Orthodox Christianity and an

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LDS doctrine so things like Isaiah says

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Before me there was no God's form neither shall there be after me. He says I'm the first and the last besides me

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There is no Savior so we see that in total contradiction against LDS doctrine that says

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There's an eternal progression that you yourself can become a God one day that Elohim Father God was

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Once a man and he lived a good life in his universe and he became a

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God and he was given this one So, well, what do you think about that? Christ says that That he has promised you

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Father that we can receive all that he has What does he have?

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So I'd have to look at the biblical passage for that. I mean,

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I know that The Bible promises we will be conformed into his image and things like that.

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We will be made more like Christ Christ is the first Well, there's only one

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God sir, so I can't look at that kind of promise So Yeah, but he's in one long line of the gods before him and the gods after him in the

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King Follett discourse Joseph Smith said you have imagined and supposed that God has been

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God from all eternity He says I'll refute that idea take away the veil that you may see You've got to be you've got to learn to become gods one day.

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So Joseph Smith teaching shows us Okay What's that that doesn't bring the spirits in one in one's life to contend

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We know from Christ teachings Intention is not of him

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Well, sure. We're well, we're not here to argue. We're here to share the truth Yeah, we and you know in Acts 17

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It says that when Paul brought the gospel there that the the Jews there were in Berea We're nor more noble -minded than those in Thessalonica that they searched the scriptures daily to see if what he was saying was true

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So we don't ask you to take our word for it. We're hoping that you'll look at some of these passages and yeah

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Well, we would say that this is the only infallible inerrant Word of God that it's not the quad it's not the

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DNC's No, I believe that this is the only special revelation that's ever been given

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What What if the Jews that were saying that they've got the

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Hosea cloth there is no more need Well rice comes along Yeah, Hebrews 1 says that all the prophets everything has been

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From the point of the prophets until now in Christ. He is he's the final prophet. He's the final point of revelation.

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So revelation continued after the law Restored again to this earth.

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There is a prophet on the earth today that gives modern -day revelation And you you think the

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Bible is all that there is Then who it's an it's you know, the history of the

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Bible. Yeah, they gather different things from different people and it was a group of Catholics to canonize what's in there?

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That's there is more stuff. That's false. There are more writings Yes, there is They they didn't take a mess of letters

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Okay, it's canonized if you're right, what do you think Jesus got wrong? I don't think

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Jesus And I would agree with that I would agree with Jesus got nothing

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That's all How do you know there's nothing was left out because you just told me

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Jesus No, he didn't do it, but man the men were the ones

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Okay, so what it was The Bible promises us sir that every word of God proves true

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He's a shield to those who take refuge in him in in his word. You understand what the

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Book of Mormon is Yeah, it's an additional Testament Right is

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Christ. So let's say modern day revelation is possible, right? So, how would you know that that revelation is true is the question the spirit of the

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Holy Ghost the spirit of the Holy Ghost Okay, so you prayed about it and you had a feeling okay So Jeremiah 17 9 says our heart is deceitful above all things desperately wicked who could know it and in Proverbs 11 12

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It says there's a way that seems right to a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death So I would contend for you contend with you and in Jude It says earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered for all for the

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Saints So contention in terms of the truth is a good thing. Actually according to the word of God You believe that the Catholic Church was the original

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Supposedly Church. Well, I don't I don't agree with that statement, but I want to go back to additional revelation real quick I want to stick on that because there's actually ways we can test additional revelation.

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So in Deuteronomy 13 It's a test of a prophet in Deuteronomy 18 is also a test of the prophets

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So Deuteronomy 13 says if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you produces miracles signs and wonders

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But leads you after other gods gods, which you have not known. Do not follow them. Do not believe them

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So the question is is how do you know if you're being led after other gods, right? Well, the

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Jews have the written word during that time and we also have the Word of God So the way that I am not deceived is by saying hey look

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I actually have the Bible which tells me who God is. He has revealed to me his character

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Isaiah 43 10 For example says before me there was no God formed. Neither shall there be after me.

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I am the Lord beside me There is no God right and in Let's say Deuteronomy 6 for it says hero

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Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one Hey, Lord, what's the very first part of Genesis? Elohim and the word created man in whose image in God's image.

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So what's images God? Can you tell me what the image of God is? He is like this, but a

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Eternal being who has been perfected. So what do you mean by eternal? So number 23 19, for example says

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God is not a man that he should lie nor a son of man that he should change his Mind Psalms 90 verse 2 says

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God is God from everlasting into everlasting Not that he became a god one day, but that or perfect always being out your theology refutes that Joseph Smith says

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Otherwise, like he quoted in the King's follow -up discourse Yes You have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity

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But I will refute that idea and take away the veils that you may see you have got to learn to become God's that's your

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Prophet sir, he refutes exactly what you're saying. Do you disagree with Joseph Smith, but we don't become the

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Overall, okay So then Heavenly Father doesn't get to be the God that he worshipped Because there's a

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God before Heavenly Father then to that Heavenly Father had to obey the gospel ordinances in principle My but this is this is the situation of situation though Is that we have a prophet who comes 1 ,800 years after Christ and he says that he has a new revelation

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However, he fails the test of a prophet. He brings us a to a different God, but I have the Word of God Right that I can rely on Yes, he did sir.

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And he also gets you to question the Word of God Which one in 2nd

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Corinthians 11 verse 4 Paul says this he says there's people who will come they will preach a different Jesus a

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Different gospel and a different spirit. Would you agree that there's people who believe in different Jesus's?

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Okay, if you believe that then how? or Christ Was the

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God of the Old Testament Yes, okay. Mm -hmm, but he called somebody else's father

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In terms of father it doesn't necessarily mean that he's begotten in the pre -existence

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From Heavenly Mother in one of his goddess walk from Elohim to one of his goddess wives.

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Can you show me that in the Bible? what That there's a pre -existence in which that we were created in Isaiah for where Jesus was created

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Yeah, the Bible doesn't show that Jesus was in Isaiah 45. It says that God created us on the world

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He put us on the world. That's where he made us and What what I have a hard time understanding

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Especially with John 1 1 it says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was

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God all Things were created through him. There was nothing that came into being that was not created through him and in Colossians chapter 1

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It says about Jesus He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation

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Firstborn not in meaning that he was begotten in the terms of a pre -existence, right?

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All things were created through him on heaven and on earth visible or invisible

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Listen listen, no, no, no all things were created through Jesus It says whether thrones dominions rulers or authorities all things were created through him for him and by him

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And he is before all things and in him all things hold together. So he created all things

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He created all the angels. He created Lucifer But your theology teaches that he's the spirit brother of Lucifer He's made he made me create the angels

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We're seeing two different gods here, but I can actually challenge a but who are angels there are other beings, right?

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Angels that book in Hebrew says they're ministering servants sent to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation. That's it

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That's it. It doesn't we're not he created all he created our spirits before and he's

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But you're getting it from additional revelation is what I'm trying to get to but I can stand on the Word of God You believe that the Bible is missing many plain and precious parts.

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Is that correct? I I do you do exactly so you you question the

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Word of God is it and I and my heart breaks for you Well, it's missing many plain and precious parts.

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Is it not? But that that doesn't mean that that's the entirety of all the

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God would want us to know it does it? I think it does in Hebrews 1 it says long ago. Okay, so he's gonna quit at the

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Apostles and say there's no more Revelation to anybody ever from the beginning of time of Adam.

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You've had prophets Revealing the Lord. I love it. This is why why not now?

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Perfect because it's a closed book. Well, here's that who closed it God did no he didn't

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That's there's nothing in there. That's why we don't wage wars anymore. No, we don't go white wiping out Sir, I think this is beautiful that you're bringing up You're kind of almost bringing up like the

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Amos 3 7 where there's a mystery right that's hidden from through the prophets Well in Colossians that actually says that that mystery is

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Christ It says the hope of glory So the whole Old Testament is talking and proclaiming about the son who is going to come

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Who's going to bear the weight of our sins on his shoulder? That's the mystery the hope of glory

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It's been revealed through Christ That's that was the consummation of all things in terms of actually getting peace with God But the but the truth is this is that we need to know who

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Jesus is in order to worship him in spirit and truth According to 2nd Corinthians, there's people who believe in a different Jesus So for example, for example

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If a Jehovah's Witness were to come to you and say that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel the first creation of Jehovah God What would you say?

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Would you believe a Jehovah's? Jehovah's Witness How would you respond to him?

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Do you think the Bible refutes that? Huh? Yeah, Michael the

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Archangel what? What about you know Islam what you know, they say he's he's a great prophet

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So yeah, it was never so all these different God, you know religions say he's always he's something different.

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So would you believe? Muslims about the nature of Christ. I believe

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Muslims are Tribe of Israel or the children of Israel that are not

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Not Israel, but it's a car Ishmael. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. It's a car.

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Is it who was given a promise by the Lord his faithfulness that all generations of time everybody after that would be

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It says they would be great, but not It says they'd be great but not necessarily children of God like Jesus always makes the qualification even with the

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Jews He says you think that you're children of God, but you're actually children of the devil Right, and these are even offspring of Abraham, but it's not about that.

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It's not about a physical descendant It's about being a spiritual inherit to the kingdom of God not necessarily something that's physical

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But the point is is how would you respond to somebody if they were to tell you? No, Jesus was just a prophet

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He was not God he didn't die on the cross for your sins or If a Jehovah's Witness comes to you and says he's actually the first creation of Jehovah God who is

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Michael the Archangel So the point I'm making though is that there are different Jesus's right so me

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I'm a Christian, right? I'm an evangelical Christian. I say Jesus Christ has always been God never ceased to be God never obtained

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Godhood He always was and is and is to come he is the same forever and ever attain

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God Because he's always been he's always been God all things were created through him There's a separation between being a creature and the creators

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Creatures Right God has revealed himself in three persons one being so we are one being in one person

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He is one being in three persons. So he's not like us purpose

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So so for example, if we're gonna go to the Old Testament then and would you say that? The types of Christ in the

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Old Testament are Jehovah When he talks about Jehovah Yahweh, okay, so in Genesis, I believe it's 1923 it says and Jehovah on earth rained down fire and brimstone from Jehovah in heaven

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Are there two Jesus's? That's the name for Jesus used twice and he's actually in two distinct places

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No, there's no well, right then you're confused with the Word of God because it says Jehovah on earth rained fire and brimstone down from Jehovah in heaven

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Well, the issue is this is that Heavenly Father is Jehovah in Christian theology in the

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Bible and Orthodox Christianity Christ is Jehovah and the Holy Spirit is

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Jehovah. He calls himself Yahweh as well See you would have an issue with that verse and I think it's one that I think you should think on Because there's two do you think that there are no?

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issues with any of the Bible Correct. Yeah, I think that the Holy Spirit is God Even your

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Proverbs and your So what what's wrong with Song of Solomon? What's wrong with Song of Solomon?

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Our point is this is an open book You can change it to whatever you want. Okay, but but there have been comparisons to Greek translations

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And there are errors in the English Yeah, they're Bible. They're fairly minor differences.

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There's been like a How can that be? Okay, well if I believe the

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Bible to be the Word of God as far as it's translated, right, right, right So if we're gonna use that standard then we can also use the same thing and point it on to the

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Book of Mormon and say which version of your Book of Mormon is correct because there's also been changes in revisions But the actual changes to the

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Book of Mormon change actual theology Whereas the changes in the Bible are hands and buzz and minor things and minor words a manuscript tradition of 2 ,000 years of Written manuscripts that we can compare it to whereas the

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Book of Mormon is a controlled text controlled by your church I mean, it's it's two two totally different things.

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You're comparing apples and oranges Didn't the original Book of Mormon talk about the curse of dark -skinned people and that's been removed since Isn't that one?

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Yeah I Want to get back to who

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God they were to change that they had changed at times into And I don't know if it's a reference of To being pure and delights and white and delightful.

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Yeah Right Doing quite white Right. Yeah, and it also do with the pre -existence in the fence sitters the ones who sat on the fence

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Yeah, I understand but I want to go back into who God is because that's the main situation here So if we can look at the beginning of Genesis, we have

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God created Adam and Eve, right? We can agree on that and then in the garden the serpent came the devil, you know what the devil did to Eve He made her question

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God's Word. What did God tell Adam and Eve? What was the one thing he commanded them? He said Well, he told them also to be fruitful multiply and replenish the earth right right well that could happen without the fall

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Well one second. I just want to before we go on to something like that I want to handle what did God tell them not to do?

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He said do not eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil He commanded them not to do that, right?

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Well, but he also qualified that How but choose

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In the sense there is a choice there right because he's telling them don't do it

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But it doesn't mean that if they transgress the law of God because that was a command that it's not a sin

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The point is this though is the serpent Congress the serpent says guess what the first thing he tells

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Eve He says Dost God say that he makes them question Yeah God's Word and then he tells him this and guess what

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God doesn't want you to eat from that fruit of the tree knowledge good And evil because you will become like God So the very promise

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Yeah Well, the very promise of the Mormon Church is the exact same thing It tells you this you can't test the words of your prophets of the

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Bible because the Bible is missing many plain and precious parts That's Joseph Smith saying Dost God say that and then he says this and guess what you will become like God as well

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That's the very same promise and I know in full transparency that the eternal progression is something that you guys believe that you

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Will be a God one day like Elohim and have your own spiritual offspring with your own wife who you will call

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You will call up. You'll say her name and you guys will be together and you'll have your own spiritual offspring and procreate on your own in your own place

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You will be like Elohim you will get worship like Elohim But the but God's the only one who gets glory in worship

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And if I might add we're not here to have you lose faith, right? We want you to find faith. We're here for you

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I mean, I know it would cost everything this brother Jamie right here used to belong to this to the

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LDS faith and It costs a lot to leave something like this, but we would be here for you.

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Oh, we know we can't change you We know the Lord can though Yeah Because we're here sir

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Because we believe that you're dead in your sin and you believe the revelation of a false prophet and if you believe in a

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Jesus Christ sir, that doesn't exist a figment of Joseph Smith's imagination, then you don't have an atoning sacrifice for your sins

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So when you die one day you're gonna stand before a holy God and you can't offer him your work sir

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Because the Bible says that your works are nothing but filthy rags before God It's purely on the work of the eternal

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God Jesus Christ Who died for us on our behalf that we can stand justifies before God Christ.

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Well, that's exactly no I think thank you because you believe in a different Jesus or one not of the Holy Scriptures You believe in the joke the

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Jesus of Joseph Smith No, I believe in that Christ came here to this earth and died for our sins

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Would you believe that's a different Jesus of Orthodox Christianity? I mean Joseph Smith even said all the creeds and a nominations were an abomination that there was a great apostasy

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So we must be missing something sir. I don't want to dance around the truth. We believe in two different Jesus's One actually holds true to Scripture one needs in that another revelation in order to try to substantiate the claims and that extra revelation

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Contradicts with the Word of God. He fails the test of a prophet in Deuteronomy 13 not to mention Deuteronomy 18 Which is the second test of a prophet that says if there's one false prophecy

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They're not. Oh, yeah, that's God. That's a good point because You can pull up a list and even you yourself could go to Google and look at all the false prophecies that Joseph Smith recited

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Even things regarding Independence, Missouri and the coming of Christ in his generation The fact that a third temple would be rebuilt in Independence, Missouri none of that ever occurred

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I mean, those are just two small ones The Bible says if he says one false prophecy we are not to fear him we are not to regard him so If you don't know the true and living

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God sir, you don't have an atoning sacrifice for your sins My heart worries for you and it is burdened for you

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And it's with love that we come out here to tell you because it is hard right and it can be offensive But the truth is the

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Bible says the gospel is offensive to those who are perishing We want you to rest solely on the work of the eternal

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God who took on flesh and died on the cross for your sins And before God we stand Unjustified as sinners deserving of his wrath and his punishment for all eternity because we're liars

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We're cheaters. Have you ever lied sir? Have you ever told a lie? In God's eyes you would be a liar

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So would you yes, but I've been justified. I've been washed. I've been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ, which

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Jesus How are you washed though? How are you justified? How are you cleansed?

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I'm cleansed by taking the sack By doing something or a law. It's an ordinance.

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Was that a work that you do? Yes, so you're saved by your work No, you just said you were you said

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I'm by By authority on your own by authority of your own article of faith, right?

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Yeah, number three. We believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ all mankind may be saved how

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My obedience the laws and orders of the gospel is the law work Are you doing a work to fulfill the law?

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So you're not God so that's fundamentally God's Commandments laws Yes, yes, they aren't salvific though, we can't we can't merit salvation by them

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It's only through Christ's mercy Well, you're saying one thing, but you're then saying another the contradiction.

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I said before. No, what what about James when he said? Justified by your works

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Faith without works is dead James chapter 2. Yeah, you have to have the works, right? so real saving faith is going to demonstrate and Show itself through the works that follow so we don't just like I'm not

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I get saved I'm not just gonna sit there and be like I'm saying that's it. I can sin I can do whatever Spirit in us that spurs us and that says there was someone one girl

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Yeah, I would be I would be very concerned about Second Nephi 25

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But those works don't justify us alone. They have to have to accompany faith. Yeah, I believe we were saved by The grace of Jesus Christ after all we can do second

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Nephi 25 I'm working on really so every every time you've ever had an opportunity to do something you've done it

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Well that is grace Will We continue to believe where you lack his grace will make up correct which contradicts

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Ephesians 2 8 through 10 For by grace you've been saved through faith not of yourselves

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It is a gift of God so that no man may boast We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works that he is prepared beforehand

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So he's even prepared the good works for us to walk in beforehand But before that in Ephesians 2 8 9 it says so that no man may boast no work of your own

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You could boast The that gives room for boasting. I I did the temple ordinances.

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I got married in the temple I went to the sacrament every Sunday every time someone needed help

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I was there for them that gives you room to boast. It's Christ works solely in him alone

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So that's that's a huge difference between Christianity to God right

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God says I'm not sure my glory with another so that glory goes to Christ And the question of the those works too

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Is it to become a God and be glorified forever or to glorify God and enjoy him forever?

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if your works aren't to glorify God they just They they just blow away in the wind my friend.

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So the Bible says you're righteous is nothing but filthy right? It's a thing about the gospel. It's so simple You don't have to do all this other stuff to be saved you don't have to get baptized

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Believer will want to get baptized as we will want to right, but it's not a self -defeat.

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It doesn't merit it Yes, there are people who had faith and got saved before they were even the thief on the cross

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How do you know it's in the Bible Remember me when you're in your kid when you enter your kingdom that says the thief on the cross

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Jesus says today you will be With me in paradise else. What are the death those that are baptized for the dead if the dead price not at all?

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Yeah That's yeah, you don't We can talk about it later, but the point

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I'm trying to make is that why would Christ want to be baptized? He was perfect. Why would he need it? It was the inauguration of his earthly ministry when the

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Holy Spirit descended like a dove was already doing Yeah, then

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Jesus came with a baptism of fire Spirit Right, so we're saying baptism is one of in our church one of actually the or you know the

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Sign of grace and it's an ordinance that baptism in the Lord's Supper But we wouldn't say performing those things after Christ has rescued us and saved our souls that those things work and earn

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That's a great question by what authority because the question that we're getting to is we're seeing a confliction of standards you're bringing up the standard of Joseph Smith that he's shown to you through the

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Book of Mormon the pearl of great price and the Doctrine and Covenants and you're using those standards to interpret the

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Bible So we're seeing a confliction of standards coming together So what I was saying in the beginning is how do you know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet according to the

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Word of God? He failed the first test of a prophet. He led you after other gods that are not in the Bible That's why there's additional revelation through Joseph Smith to say this is what the

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Bible is missing number two He fails the test of a prophet in Deuteronomy 18 because he has false prophecies So you've elevated the standard over the

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Bible you interpret the Bible through the lens of Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon I don't think

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Joseph Smith was perfect. Okay Okay, just the same as you have different gospel versions with different versions of prayers.

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Okay, so also perfect Well, hold on. This is this is the thing though. Okay, every word of God is pure He is a shield to them who put their faith in him

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Add thou not to these words lest he rebuke you and thou shalt be found a liar So when I hear the

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Bible in the law of God in Deuteronomy 13 and 18, this is God breathed, right?

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This is this is not the will of man This is God and this is his preserved word

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And so if he fails these tests of the law of God, I must reject him as a prophet

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I must reject him. That's not those aren't inaccurate at all. Those are tests of a prophet right there

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You have to break through those. How are you gonna get past the law of God? It says we must store the law of God in our hearts.

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So we shall not sin against him, sir Do you store the law of God in your heart? Do you regard what he says about false prophets or do you elevate the prophecies of Joseph Smith over the

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Word of God? Right had that born to me by the

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Spirit, okay well No, I would not here's the thing I testify through the

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Word of God in Deuteronomy 13 and 18 that he's preserved throughout time through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that Joseph Smith is a false prophet who fails the tests in the law of God I can testify to you not of my own heart, but the objective standard and revealed

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Word of God you testified to me through your emotions Test the spirits is what the

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Bible says sir. How can you test them if you don't believe the test of a prophet in the Bible? First John Ford says test the spirits

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God's made the standard we haven't so we just we have to abide by that Could you show me from the

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Bible where? The way that we know something is true is we see if we get a feeling

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Because would you agree with the scripture that says the heart is? deceitfully wicked Yeah, yeah

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How can I trust myself so and so the Christian Faith has been from Christ's time has been pure He's preserved a remnant always

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Catholic He's always preserved a remnant sir, we don't believe the

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Roman Catholic Church was God's Church that was Original church from what they claim well

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Catholic means universal Roman Catholic is something separate But you agree with Jesus and that his words have authority right he says heaven and earth shall pass away

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But my words will never pass away number one, then he also says on this rock I will establish my church in the gates of hell will never prevail against it the gospel not

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Peter. It's not Peter my friend No, it's the gospel

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And what did he teach Peter afterwards well the thing is sir if the Rev if revelation was the rock

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That's when he called Peter the rock he was to be the president or The prophet to continue his work well,

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I appreciate that, but the question is as the key to that I Appreciate using the rock as the standard as revelation, but what is the rock right?

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It's not shifting sand It's it's a foundation that is secure rooted in the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ It's rooted in Christ the rocks the gospel.

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Let me let me give you this number one. It's a rock It doesn't move it doesn't shift Revelation from the

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LDS Church is always shifting and changing my friend first blacks couldn't hold the priesthood now blacks can hold the priesthood Your Rev your revelation sure sir is shifting sand.

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What are you gonna? Do when? the LGBTQ Agenda when the plurality of wives and polygamous marriage gets legalized in the

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United States and your church wants to go and say hey guess What in order to enter the celestial kingdom you're gonna need to be sealed to multiple wives

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What are you gonna? Do when they actually go back to that standard your revelation is shifting sand my friend It's not a rock. It's always changing and Malachi.

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God says I'm the Lord and I do not change but LDS prophets throughout the centuries have said one thing and now

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God has said another he doesn't contradict himself The Lord just said Malachi. I do not change.

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He does not change his standard So we want you to know and have a relationship with the true and living

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God. We love you, sir. We care for you Can you take that sir? You have a wonderful day.