The Space - Episode 2 - Marcus Pittman on Biblical Justice

Last night

I had the privilege to speak with Mr. Marcus Pittman, formerly of Apologia Studios, regarding issues of social justice and biblical justice, and it was an awesome conversation.

What you're about to see is really a framework for how to talk about justice as a Christian, because the

Bible is very concerned with issues of justice. God obviously cares whether or not a country is just in its dealings, and Marcus has a way of talking about this that I think is very important.

It's very Bible -focused, and it's consistent in the sense that for every question that we have, whether it's police brutality or questions of income inequalities or questions of white supremacy, all these things, there's a biblical answer for.

We don't have to just take the answer that the right gives us or the answer that the left gives us.

We don't have to just accept those kinds of things. I think there's a lot of people that say, well, the right isn't exactly correct on this biblically, so let's go with the answer the left has, and that's just folly.

That's just foolishness. What we need to do is make sure our Bibles are constantly open and make sure that we're defining terms the way the

Bible does. We don't just say, let justice roll down like waters without exploring what does Amos mean by justice?

What was his standard? The question is, by what standard? That's always the question, and so this conversation will talk a little bit about that.

I hope to do some discussions slash debates on this topic because I'm sure there are going to be

Christians that would disagree that this is a good way or an appropriate way to talk about justice.

But anyway, more videos like this to come, I hope. Again, the guest is Marcus Pittman, and of course, I'm AD Robles, and this is

The Space. Well, Marcus, it is awesome to talk to you. Thank you for wanting to come on and to chat about all this stuff that's going on, man.

Yeah, man. I just want to say that I think you're doing a great job, and you are one of my new favorite

YouTube channels, and your stuff is very thorough and rooted in Scripture.

Keep going, man, and subscribe to you. People should subscribe to you right now. If they're watching this and they haven't subscribed to you, stop and hit the bell.

Marcus, this is why you're the expert because I believe that is called a call to action, and I never do that.

It is a call to action, and whether or not people actually perform the action, that's in the

Lord's hands. That's right. That's right. Let's chat a little bit about all this stuff.

Social justice, cultural Marxism, that's a four -letter word right now, and I've seen you obviously interact with people online with this.

Why do you think this is worth interacting? Why do you think this is even worth talking about? I think it's a sign that our culture as it is right now has not ever thought thoroughly about what government can and can't do in accordance with Scripture.

I think if you talk to people about this on the other side, and they'll talk about how the

Bible says we should take care of the poor and all these things, but they don't even look at the context.

It's the church taking care of the poor, not the government by force or with threat of a gun through taxation or whatnot.

There's a little difference there. That's why I wanted to have this conversation with you is because there's not a lot of people actually saying, looking at the injustices.

I can look at police brutality and say, police brutality is terrible. Police brutality is terrible.

It's the worst. It's absolutely a thing. I do believe, and we'll talk more about my discussion

I had with KB, but I told him I do believe, at least to some degree, there is a sense of white privilege in that I don't have to worry about being pulled over by a police officer the same way a

Black person does. I have been in a car when I got pulled over for driving with a

Black passenger, and the police only wanted information on my Black passenger and didn't care about me, even though I was driving.

That's real. As Christians, that should bother us. We should say, what are the solutions to these real injustices that either

Black people are facing or minority groups or just poor people in general? What are the solutions to those injustices?

And the great thing is scripture has all those answers. The problem is the people on the other side who are talking about all this social justice stuff, they don't want the scriptural solutions.

That's the issue at hand. They don't even want to discuss the scriptural solutions. They don't even want to debate it.

I'm okay with us looking at a Bible verse, say someone who's more liberal and me looking at a

Bible verse and debating how exactly that Bible verse in the Old Testament applies today, but we're not even having that discussion.

The discussion is you guys are Trump supporters and hate Black people or hate

Mexicans or hate whatever racial group. And it's like, no, I think we both want the same thing.

We both want the same outcome, which is justice for all people. The difference is I have a biblical solution that guarantees that, and you only want a solution that is not biblical, that'll actually make things worse for people.

So you're in the Trump cult too, I guess. No. No. I found out

I was in the Trump cult just the other day. I know. Everybody's in it. That's all you can be.

You can be in the Trump cult or you can be a Hillary supporter. And it's like, no, I think

Trump is morally repugnant. I don't think according to scripture, and I can say this because I go to scripture for who should be president or not.

It says that in order to be president or it says to elect people among you that fear

God, are trustworthy and don't take a bribe. And Donald Trump is neither of those three and neither is

Hillary Clinton. So there's only three stipulations for president and we couldn't get one of those, one of the candidates to meet three stipulations.

So no, I'm not a Trump supporter at all. I'm not. And I'll just go even worse.

I'll say it doesn't mean that you have to apply the law of God correctly to be president.

You just have to fear God. And anyone who fears God, I think God will supernaturally anoint them to lead well.

I really believe that. So I'm not even like, I am more libertarian because I believe that's the political system scripture gives us in the

Old Testament. But again, I have a basis for that. But I'm also very much a

Christian conservative in how I view morality and issues of like adultery and marriage and obviously abortion.

So yeah, you were talking about biblical solutions for these injustices that exist, which is a little bit of a different approach than some people, because I think some people want to talk about whether or not these injustices are really that rampant or that systemic.

And I've actually even done that to some degree. I agree with you. I've experienced racism myself.

So I know it's real. But I've even questioned how rampant is it? How systemic is it?

And you're kind of saying, well, let's just kind of end around that. Let's just not even debate. Let's assume it. Let's just assume it.

Let's assume it because the issue is not whether or not a certain sin exists or how much that sin is prevalent.

Or if you're aware of that sin more than others are aware of that sin. That's not the issue. The issue is, OK, how do we address that sin via scripture and what sort?

And another question I would say is, is the government in its current state in acting in opposition to God's law, is it making things worse or better?

Yeah. And so like, I don't even I don't care if it is. I know that's going to make me white privilege just just to say

I don't care. But I don't care because the reason I don't care is because ultimately, whether you believe it or not, we want the same outcome.

Right. We want justice for all people, groups, all nations, and the gospel to be brought forth to all men.

So so so I my my question, my only question is, using scripture, how do we get there?

And what is the role of government in bringing us to that point? Where and how? Right. Because if you if you're applying the general equity of of of the civil laws, it's not going to be different whether or not racism is rampant or just a little bit.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's the same general equity. Right. Yeah, I like that. No, I think that's because I think what happens is because, like, everybody wants to discuss, you know, white privilege and what is it?

And like, is it the language of cultural Marxism? It absolutely is. But but that's not important to the to the issue at hand, because because we can just say racism exists.

Racism is a sin. Here's how the government handles it. It doesn't handle it by telling businesses who they can and can't serve or have to serve.

Right. And so there's there's all sorts of economic policies and laws and scripture.

The Bible has an incredible wealth of information dealing with economics. So that's so that's one thing.

So I can look at. Let's just go to an example. Let's do it. Yeah. So the guys who are arrested at Starbucks.

There's this mass protest of Starbucks and everybody was mad and upset. And and, you know, the first thing is people want to do is like, well, the government should make it a law that anybody can use the bathroom in any restaurant, whatever.

Right. And so, one, that's a violation of biblical property rights.

But I would say I would say let's assume that Starbucks is wrong in this situation. Again, it doesn't matter. So assume the

Starbucks is wrong. So Starbucks was improperly treating black people in their restaurant.

The solution would be and this is radical. Are you ready for this, man? Let's hear it. The solution.

If black people are really infuriated with Starbucks treatment, they should petition the government to get rid of any sort of food regulation or license to open their own coffee joint and then they should sell

Starbucks out of the back. They should sell their own coffee out of the back of a truck and not have to worry about fines and penalties and rules and regulations.

They can sell coffee on Instagram. They can do a whole sort of things. They can start their own businesses and take down Starbucks.

So like that's that's how you do it. That sounds like a lot of work,

Marcus. Well, it is a lot of hard work. Right. But the outcome is better.

I believe that like all three and like all the institutions that God have, whether it's family, state or the civil realm or even technically kind of the business realm, like they all have their own ways biblically to shut down evil.

Right. And so I think we see that with like, I think Chick -fil -A, for example, like Chick -fil -A was is so they have so much loyalty.

Their product that they sell is so good that there's articles telling written by gay people telling gay people stop eating there and they don't.

And so so you see that if your business is good, it doesn't even matter because you can shut down opposition and you have loyalty and stuff like that.

So so there's ways businesses businesses are made to shut down evil that God has given us capitalism to shut down evil.

That's a crazy thought, because most people, especially in on the other side, they think that capitalism is evil, right?

Yeah. And it's like, no, it's not evil. It's given to us by God to stop evil. And there's a multitude of ways to do that.

And it can't be done. You know, you know, like what do we say when we talk about why are there no businesses in black communities?

Well, you know how much money it starts to take to to create a business? Yeah. You have to have zoning regulations,

American Disabilities Act. That's the worst. People don't even know about like the ADA, the

American Disabilities Act. I knew a guy, a friend of mine. He was one of the guys who would buy property and oversee the construction of new quick trip gas stations.

And one time we were just hanging out at a quick trip and he walked me around the store and showed me all the construction policies required just to be able to open up and do business.

And it would have been thousands upon thousands of dollars in construction fees. Right. Just make ramps a certain degree for it.

And so so if you say, well, why aren't there more businesses in poor communities? Well, it's the government's fault.

Right. Karen said, well, you know, and then you got, you know, high minimum wage and all these other issues.

And so but but scripture shows us all those things. You know, scripture shows us why the government shouldn't be involved in those areas.

And we can go to that. I'd love to go to some of those things. But no, I mean, you make you make it you make a really good point.

I think just to talk about that last thing about the poor, poor neighborhoods, not having businesses started by poor people.

It's not only because of the capital that they don't have, it's because they just don't have the ability or the knowledge rather to to know what they need to do to start a business.

And it really it should be very simple. You should have, you know, something that you know, an item or something that you can sell.

And then someone has some money, they give you the money that you give them the item. And that's that is the Ron Swanson quote, right?

It's like, I want to Apple, you sell me an Apple. And that's how businesses shouldn't be run. Right. And it's that simple, but it's not in our country.

There is if you go into any Walmart or Costco or any business by the bathrooms, they usually have this giant wall filled with licenses and regulations they have from permission from the government to own that to run that business.

And they had to pay thousands upon thousands of dollars for every single one of those. Yep. Not to mention lawyer, lawyers and all that stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Tons. And so there's regulations and inspections and.

Yeah. Yeah. It's really silly. So we don't see any of those requirements in Scripture.

So so in Scripture, if you operate a business, let's say you operate.

Well, how? Well, it's not even about the business in Scripture, it's about the individual. So if you have a house, it tells you to put roofs, gates around the roof.

The principle there is that you love your neighbors so they don't fall off. And I live in Arizona and everybody has a swimming pool and pretty much all the swimming pools have gates around them.

There's there's there's gates to protect kids from falling in or someone from falling in. So that principle is still in effect today.

Right. And if you go on top of a high building with a flat roof, most of the time there's at least something around the border to prevent you from accidentally walking off.

So so those those principles in the Old Testament, like there's still there's still around.

And but the Bible, the Bible doesn't punish a construction company who makes a pool for not building that fence.

Right. It punishes the individual. But only there's not someone walking around checking to make sure that they have their fence.

It's only if someone falls off and injures themselves. That's the foundational principle of all of Scripture.

If somebody is hurt because of neglect, because of not loving your neighbor, then you're responsible.

But there's no preventative minority report pre -crime that prevents people from from stop from from like speeding tickets, for example, is a pre -crime because it's not a sin to go above the speed limit.

It's a sin if you if you hurt somebody. Right. Right. So so if you were to go above the speed limit, crash and kill somebody, then you get the death penalty.

If it's a legitimate accident, there's no penalties. There's there there's nothing.

So so there's a lot more freedom in that sort of law and whatnot. And so I don't know, man, where do you want to go with this?

Because I could talk. Yeah, I hear it. So you recently talked to KB, the rapper, right?

We did, man. We had we had I just want to say we had a really good conversation. I don't know what happened to the recording that he forgot to record.

So I have the audio. If KB gives me permission to release the audio, I will.

I would love to release it. I I don't think he's not. I just want to be clear. I don't think he is saying that, you know,

I smashed him and doesn't want to release it or he smashed me and doesn't want to release it. I don't think there's any like ill will.

I think he legitimately forgot. So I have audio recording. It's a good quality recording and I would love to release just the audio of it.

I think it'd be great. But I think I think I think

I think it was really good because I don't think honestly, I believe this. I don't think KB has ever heard people go to the

Old Testament to define what government can and cannot do. Yeah. And I think he thought it was crazy at times, which is understandable because when

I first heard it, I thought it was crazy as well. I remember thinking to myself, why hasn't anyone told me this before?

Right. Yeah. No, I think so. You know, I remember he was saying, like, so so would so would you say that an adulterer should be put to death?

And I was just like, yes. And he was just he just never heard anybody say that.

And so I don't think I don't think he thought I was rational. Maybe he thought I was crazy and insane. I don't know.

But but I challenged him on duty and Deuteronomy when it says what nation in all the earth has laws as righteous as the ones

I said before you today. And I asked him, you know, is God's standard of righteousness immutable?

Because if those laws are righteous, then they have to be righteous now. And I don't think he was ever.

I just don't think in the liberal and I don't think that in these conversations where they're talking about racial inequality and racial injustice,

I don't think they're really going back and examining Old Testament laws and their general equity and how a system of government was set up by God and, you know, just making distinguishing, very important, distinguishing characteristics between what the church does as Israel and what the government does as a civil weapon by God.

So I don't think those conversations are happening. Um, so let's have that here.

So so what what would the scripture say, Marcus, about about solving these injustices?

So whether it's police brutality or maybe income inequalities or whatever it is, what let's talk about that.

Let's talk about police brutality, for example. What what does the scripture say about that? Well, I think I think that if there is a police department at all.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I know. I know. If if if if there's a police department at all,

I think it should be very localized and volunteer driven. Um, you know, there's a term beat cop that they had a while back ago.

And essentially, the role of the police officer was that if he saw a crime happen, he had a whistle and the whistle alerted the public to the crime so the public could arrest him.

And then the police would take the person to a trial. Immediate trial.

Right. Immediately. Right. And so and so. So if if there were police departments, they would only exist to help in the citizens arrest of others.

So so that is drastically different. Like, essentially, yeah, there should be no difference between a mall security officer and a real police officer.

Like, that's a that's a drastic thing. And that's so crazy to people.

No wonder KB thinks you're crazy. Well, I know. Right. I know. But but you said, well, what's the solution of police police brutality?

Well, if you say, well, get rid of police departments, then you're seen as crazy. If what do they want?

They want bigger government for their problems with the government. It's a little crazy. That's a little crazy. Yeah. Like when you're brought when the problem is government and all these problems are result of government, every one of these liberal

Marxist problems that they're bringing up, police brutality is a government problem.

Right. And it's it's never treated that way. It's always treated like it's an individual racism, white privilege sort of thing.

But it's not. It's a government problem. It's a problem with the government. Right now, what other solution could there be?

Because if if the cops are are racist and in general and they're they're beating up blacks and Latinos like hotcakes, what what could the possible solution be besides doing away with it completely?

I mean, what do you put him through training? I don't know. But it all the same.

The same answer works for prison systems, too. You don't see prisons in the entire scripture unless it was maybe temporarily to hold someone until they had trial.

Right. But there were no massive prison systems. People were not locked in image.

Image bearers of God are not to be locked in a cage separated from the people they're married to and their children ever.

Right. So so God values the family so much that for a prison system to interfere, the only way that the government can interfere with marriage is to have someone put to death.

And at that point, the covenant's broken and they're free to remarry. But the presence I mean, so if you just look at just on those grounds alone that it hinders the family, for sure it does.

And so that's that's what you why you don't see that in scripture, because because the role of the government in scripture is to protect the family unit.

And I think it was Rastuni that said the reason why homosexuality and adultery and fornication and and all these all these like rape were all punishable by death was because it's treason against the family, which is the pillar of a nation.

So it's not the Constitution that's the pillar of our society. It's the family. So when you commit adultery, you're committing treason against the nation.

Right. And and that's very true. And and so that's why all the systems in place in the

Old Testament view of government actually protect the family. Right. Well, you do. And the thing is, too, you do see some prisons in the

Bible, but it's always the pagan government. It's always Egypt. It's always Rome. That's absolutely true.

It's all. Yes, you're absolutely right. Like Joseph was locked up in prison, but it wasn't in the

Christian, a Christian government or an Israeli government. Israel. That's absolutely true.

Right. And so. So, yeah, no, that's see, these are the kinds of things that I think, you know, if if if a if a if a social justice minded

Christian really sat down and thought about these things and and what they support politically versus what they say they want in their rhetoric, they'd really see that inconsistency.

I remember once I was talking to a guy that said that I said that we should get rid of the schools and this guy is is a pretty big social justice warrior thinking that, you know, he's been taught white supremacy all his life and this and that.

And and he was shocked by that. He's like, how could you just throw people to the wolves like that? A lot of poor people need those schools.

And I'm like, are you telling me poor people need to be taught white supremacy from the day that they're they're talking to, you know, like you can't hold these two beliefs that they're contradictory.

One is wrong, at least. Right. I mean, I mean, public schools are are the worst for all these issues.

Right. So, I mean, they're just they're just making I mean, they're government schools just make these issues so much more worse.

And and I you know, it's a lack of economics that says, well, if if we don't have public schools, everyone will just be stupid and dumb and uneducated.

And I'm just going to tell you right now, I think YouTube by itself could handle the problem of not having government schools.

I think people would figure it out. They would figure out how to educate their kids. And if they don't educate their kids, you know, there is

I know this sounds terrible, but if a parent doesn't educate his child and his child is is is just led to nothing that that is a curse on the family that is rightfully given by God for the parent's lack of responsibility.

Yeah. And and you're going to have less of that. Like it's not going to be as often once people are fending for themselves and and and surviving just based on their own needs and not dependent on the government or getting help from the church.

You're going to have a lot less of that, especially by getting help from the church and not the government.

Yeah. Yeah. Have you? And I just I have to mention this because.

David Chilton's book on economics. Oh, it's the worst name.

What is the name of the book? What is the name of the book? It's is it the one you mentioned to me on Facebook the other day?

Yes. It's it's. Oh, my goodness gracious. Productive, productive

Christians in. Yes. I've told the people they need to change the name of that book to just socialism is theft.

Yes. And they won't listen to me. But that's David Chilton's word. Socialism is theft.

So by the way, that book is available for free on PDF on Gary Neurth's website. So check. Yes, it is free and everybody should read it because it is the absolute best breakdown of the the the laws of economics that God has given us and how scripture regulates that.

And it is amazing that every time every page of that book is just like so much scripture and so much thought behind it.

But one of the things he points out in that book, I think is really important, is that all of the the laws that instruct the church, not the government, the laws that instruct the church or individuals to help poor people, they're highly, highly discriminatory laws.

So they're not blanket laws that just say you have to help like and like an example of that is that the farmers had to leave the corners of their fields so people could glean.

But the property owners, the farmers were still allowed to determine who could and could not come on the property.

And we see that in Ruth with Boaz. Boaz was very discriminatory towards Ruth above others in the fields.

And because God honors personal property rights and God's laws doesn't violate property, personal property rights, you're not going to have bums come on your property and just take stuff.

Right, right, right. But it also prevents you. There was all these things like you had to give the owner your cloak if you were going to take a loan during the day.

And at night, the owner had to give you his cloak, your cloak back to you. And the reason he took the cloak is because that was your only possession you're allowed to have in order to get help.

And if he didn't take your cloak, you could go to someone else during the day and get two people helping you.

But if you had the cloak, then so it's just like all these amazing things.

There's all these protections, right, both for the individual and for the owner who's providing the help that's throughout

Scripture. And none of it has to do with the government, right? You know, there's zero interest loans, so you wouldn't have these massive payment.

What it was, the check cashing places, the loan sharks, you won't have those. Those are zero interest loans.

And there's different rules that apply to citizens of the United States and non -citizens of the United States.

After seven years, a citizen, I say United States, but Israel, Israel is what you meant. Citizens of the country, a citizen, after seven years, they have to have their debts cleared.

That's a year of Jubilee. All the debts are free after seven years. A non -citizen doesn't get that same treatment.

The government can determine how many generations it takes until someone can be a citizen, which is different because there's not strict immigration policy in Scripture.

So we talk about this. So my position, this is crazy. This might sound crazy, but my position is let people in, right?

You're going to let people in, take away welfare, take away public schools, take away medical care,

Medicaid, take all that stuff away and bring it back to the times of Ellis Island's prime and make people work for a living.

The only people that are going to come in - Imagine that. That is crazy. I know.

But then you got to deal with the people who are saying, well, what about the jobs?

They're that's a really ignorant understanding of economics because the laws of economics don't say that there's a limited, finite amount of jobs.

The more people who are working and making money, spend money and create new jobs. So ultimately, we should want as many people to come here as possible because they love our laws and they want to work in a nation and live in a nation that is blessed by God and has

Christian laws. People should be flocking all over the world. The Bible says that justice will rise up to Zion and people will be flocking all over the world to these nations who uphold

God's laws. So there is definitely a limited immigration policy, but also there's policies in the

Bible that says certain people can't. They can't come in for a certain amount of generations because they're enemies of God.

So I do think there are decisions that can be made regarding national security and stuff like that.

But building the walls is only going to keep us from escaping. One day it'll come to that.

I'm quite certain. One day you'll be like, man, I really wish that wall wasn't here right now. It sounds like you are saying that the

Bible is... God is very concerned with issues of justice and that includes economic justice, that includes all kinds of justice.

And a lot of the time, the social justice -minded Christian will just kind of strawman our side and say, well, you're saying the

Bible's... God's not concerned with justice, aren't you? Isn't that a truncated gospel? And I think that they kind of have a point sometimes, don't they?

I think there are some Christians running around out there that do kind of have a truncated gospel.

Would you say that that's true? Well, yeah. So there's a lot of Christians who will say on one hand, they'll say, well, this is a two kingdom view.

We're citizens of heaven and also citizens of earth.

And so certain laws don't apply, but then they're massive liberals like Russell Moore, who is completely inconsistent when it comes to any sort of liberal policy that he wants to enforce.

He suddenly abandons the two kingdom view and he'll go to Old Testament, misinterpret it.

Yes. Emphasis on the misinterpret it. Yeah, yeah. Emphasis on the misinterpretation.

And suddenly become like some weird, theonomist, biblical law person, completely corrupted view.

So no one's consistent on this. I think that's a great thing about Trump is it's exposing who our

God is in terms of government or God. It really is. I mean, because you do have Trumpianity.

Is that how they say it? Yeah. Trumpianity. That's a real thing. I agree. I agree. First Baptist of Dallas is a great example of that just sort of craziness that everything

Trump does is amazing. But then you have people like us who

I think actually have the answers and solutions. But I don't think we're given the platform.

And maybe that's God's curse on our nation. You know, maybe God is just, you know, saying that there's a very good reason why

I'm not giving you guys Fox News time. Right. Not giving you guys.

And look, man, when I worked at Apology, I tried all the time to get Jeff on Apology on Fox News.

It's like all the time we pray for it. Right. But it just never happened. And I think there's a reason for that.

I think God is purposefully limiting the influence of this stuff for judgment, which, you know,

I mean, look, look, man, if who cares?

God is not going to bless our nation for dealing with racism if we don't just end abortion immediately.

Like, like it's not like there's there's so many issues, you know, and when you say when you say, you know, like,

I honestly believe abortion is a primary issue in God's concern of our nation.

The lack of repentance and the abortion is a major issue. And if you can overlook abortion because of immigration policy or because of this issue or because of that issue.

Yeah. I don't think God is going to somehow bless our nation if we can't see that.

Like, as serious as it is, like, I just don't. I don't. Yeah. You know,

I think you said this, actually, if I'm remembering this correctly, but right right after Trump was elected,

I think if I'm honest, I didn't vote for Trump and I didn't recommend anyone vote for Trump.

In fact, in fact, I actively told people they probably shouldn't vote for Trump. But I was

I was as shocked as MSNBC when Trump got elected. Yeah, well, me too. Me too. But here's what

I'm going to admit to you. I definitely did breathe a bit of a sigh of relief after that. And and it definitely was a sense of, wow,

I guess I kind of did want him to win if I had to pick between the two. Yes. And but then but very quickly after,

I think I heard you say that that you don't get blessed. Your country doesn't get blessed without there being repentance.

Like if there has not been repentance in the United States, there's no question about that. And so even though we feel kind of collectively this is a sigh of relief, really, it's kind of a curse almost.

It is a curse. I think it was Eric Erickson that wrote an article explaining why

Trump was bad for our nation. And it was all because it was essentially the same thing.

It's that he's going to make Christianity a mockery.

He's going to make a mockery of Christianity. And I think we see that. And I think, you know, when the evangelicals are like Trump is on God's side.

I mean, you can just read any conservative Facebook comment thread.

Sure. Yep. Christians just praising Trump like he's David and he's not.

And they'll actually use David to justify Trump's adultery, which is right. Not at all the same thing and not even close.

But so so I think there is like this this probably is like, you know, a hardening of, you know,

God just hardening our nation even more. And, you know, and I think I think the other thing too, is that it's not just that the conservative

Christians are making a mockery of it almost. But I think like you said, you know, sort of getting giving a guy like Russell Moore huge platforms to misinterpret scripture and things like that.

And just all the craziness that's going on that even got me on YouTube in the first place. That also is a making a mockery of Christianity.

So question about it. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, and and like it's it's difficult because I think because there's there's these attributes of Trump that I really admire and appreciate.

I agree. Like, I love how he uses his position as as a legitimate sword.

And he's not a coward. And like his tweet to Iran the other day and what his threats to North Korea and how he used that big stick,

I think, in a just way. So there is like all these things that I think Trump is doing.

That's like, man, like, I think I just think that we're so accustomed to not knowing what a true leader is, that when we see someone with Trump, who is a good leader, and I'm sorry,

I know I just offended a lot of liberals. Sure. But don't make a billion dollars with a million dollars and not be a good leader.

Right? Or be stupid. Yeah, or being stupid. And I do think he plays dumb on purpose.

I don't think he's as dumb as he pretends to be. Absolutely not. And I think that's a strategy.

And it's I think it's even more brilliant. You know what I admire? He's moral repugnant and a god hater.

So I just want to throw that out there and I won't vote for him. Right. But neither why. Right, right. But I just want to say that the attributes that the liberals are maddest about,

I'm, I'm the most grateful for. Yeah. One of the things I admire about him is, is his ability to control.

I think I might have lost you. But that's actually probably a good place to transition then to. Okay. So we just came back from an internet issue.

And I what I wanted to talk with you about Marcus is you had mentioned abortion.

And talking about how that it just seems like the most obvious major issue that we've got going on more way more important than all of the racial tension that income inequalities than all of this other stuff you would

Those issues are important. But, but those are things that can be worked out with scripture.

Sure. God is not going to bless our nation if we don't see that as a grave sin we need to repent of.

So it doesn't even matter. I feel like if we're willing to like, overlook that to cover these other issues, then, like,

I just I don't see God blessing a nation with justice. And that's what we want.

We want our nation to be blessed with justice. We're not going to God's not going to bless our nation with justice when there's 50 million children we've killed.

And we're just like, well, you know, just, well, we'll get to that. Right, right, right.

So he's, we're not going to get God's blessing as a nation if we figure out our wealth inequalities, but we're still killing babies.

That's right. Right. Right. All right. So, so what I wanted to get your take on was, was something

I saw just, just today, actually, it's called the call to pause.

And I think you said you saw this briefly. I saw this. I read it briefly during my break at work.

Right. And I was just like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever read in my life. So this whole thing is

I'll read you the three main points with what they're calling evangelicals to do. But the whole point is that they understand that evangelicals are feeling like they're, they're like, their whole goal of voting for Trump is about to be accomplished.

They, they feel like a lot, a lot of evangelicals feel like voting for Trump meant that we're going to get this great Supreme court pick, and we're going to be able to overturn

Roe versus Wade. I'm not saying that that's actually happening, but that's what a lot of people felt. Right. So, yeah, that's what people have felt.

Right. So we can talk about that too. Yeah. Just real quick. Let me just say that as soon as the

Supreme court overturns Roe v. Wade, there's going to be a massive movement to make a constitutional amendment that legalizes abortion from the constitution.

And then the Supreme court can't do anything about it. Um, and if you don't believe me, that's what

Ireland did this week. So right. I mean, this, this year, so that's what

Ireland did. They made abortion constitutionally protected, and then it doesn't matter.

Um, and so the question I always ask is, why haven't we been working on the constitutional amendment for the past 40 or 50 years?

This is a good point, but actually what, what, what, so this call to pause actually is saying we should pause that culture war because here's the thing, what we need to do is what, this is the three points markets, right?

The first thing we need to do is we need to fast for discerning God's call. After 35 years of a culture war mindset, we need to really kind of think about it.

Right. And the point is that, um, in, in the culture where they're saying there's, there's only allies and enemies, no human beings, and there's always collateral damage.

Well, stop, stop right there. Okay. Um, it is a war.

There should be collateral damage and there should be enemies because it's a war.

You're so mean, Marcus. I don't like, I read that and I was like, uh, yeah.

Like if the old Testament gives us anything, it gives us that war creates enemies and collateral damage.

And, and, and, uh, and, and, and God is always the victor. So there's blood, there's death, there's guts and God always wins.

And so I always just read that and I was like, well, yeah. Okay. I see what they're saying, but, but yeah, that's not really what the point is.

The fact that there is collateral damage, that's not really the problem. It's just, uh, anyway, let's let me, let me go on.

Here's the second point. The second thing we need to do is after we've, after we fasted, we need to listen to the stories and testimonies of the people of color in the pew right next to us.

That's the second point. And then the third point is we need to act on our prayerful informed discernment by calling our senators to demand that they replace retiree justice,

Anthony Kennedy with a moderate independent justice. What do you think about that? I would, well, with that, well, with the second point,

I would say, okay, let's talk to people of color in the pews. I don't have a problem with that. And then let's provide them with biblical solutions.

With the third point, I would say, um, show me in scripture, um, how you can uphold

God's law and be a moderate judge. Yeah, there's that. It's very, it's very, very simple.

God has not created government in a vacuum that is devoid of how government should rule.

And he's shown us every single thing a government should and should not do in scripture. And if we don't look to scripture to determine if, if our policies that we want enacted is, um, well, let me give you an example.

So I was debating with KB and KB was bringing up racism, um, in, in terms of, uh, the segregation of businesses based on only serving black people and only serving white people.

And, and, and my challenge to KB was show me in scripture where the government has the authority to punish a business for doing that type of evil.

But because, because I wasn't saying that segregation was not evil, right?

I was saying that it is evil, but it's an evil that the government can't regulate.

And so with all these other issues that are coming up, I just want to know from scripture where the government, not

Israel, not the church, where the government has the authority to determine these things.

Right. So that, like, let's just have that conversation. So I, like,

I'll put that out there to anybody is just, let's have that conversation. I will come with you.

I will say that racism is an issue. Police brutality, injustice, drug laws, prison systems, all those immigration, all those things are problems.

I absolutely agree. There's problems in all those areas, but just like where in scripture does the government have the authority to, to, to make the decisions, um, about that.

And, and so, so David Chilton speaks to this very thing. And this, this is why abortion is an issue because the government does have permission to regulate this.

It's in Deuteronomy. It talks about, uh, uh, it talks very clearly about a woman who, uh, whose child is injured while in the womb.

There's very serious consequences for killing a child in the womb in the

Bible. Right. Right. So minimum wage, not in scripture.

Right. Right. Well, right. So, so, um, uh, whether or not the government should have business licenses, not like those things are not detailed in scripture, whereas abortion is, and these people want to make, um, evils that people are doing and they are evils.

They want to make the government involved in those issues when the government has no authority to do so.

And so, um, David Chilton says in his book, he says that there are, there are many things

I'm going to paraphrase it here, but he says there are many, many things, um, that people do that are evil, but the government has no place to punish it.

And like, we can say like murder of the heart, adultery of the heart, like those sort of thought crimes are not punishable by the government, but also, uh, paying someone less than, uh, they earn their worth in a labor sense is not punishable by the government.

Right. That person is told to find another job. Um, or, um, so I mean,

Jesus said that in the parable of the vineyard workers, right? So, so, you know, so,

I mean, you know, I love that passage because, and look, anybody that's listening, any, anybody that's listening, we can talk about the old

Testament, whether the old Testament is relevant for today or whatever, but here's the thing. You cannot be a

Calvinist and be in favor of a minimum wage, like, cause

Jesus said very clearly, do I, as the owner of this vineyard have a right to pay people with my money as I wish?

And the point he was making there was that God can save who he wants to save. But if the principle of the parable is not true, if the story that he is telling is not true, then his

Jesus's analogy to the spiritual doesn't, isn't true either. So, so, so all these people were saying, you know, and they claim to be reformed and they're saying minimum wage and do this and do that.

It's clear violation of the property rights used in the parable that God can save what he wants because his property is his property.

Yeah. I mean, I think honestly, we've got, we've got a lot of people that are, that are claiming to be reformed that really just don't have any time thinking about what the general equity of this law is.

And so that's why we have like this call to pause this, this, this, this kind of struck me as kind of funny because it's just so obviously like a political scam, you know, they want you to just, they want you to, to support

Democrats. That's what, that's what this is. It's a political hustle. Yeah. But, and I think it's very obvious that, that that's that.

Well, they said moderate. Well, that's true. I'll give them credit. Doesn't get much clearer than using the word moderate to define a

Supreme court justice. And so like, I guess my whole point though, is that I think a lot of the social justice warrior

Christians that I've been talking about and talking to, they they're realizing that pure, just like pure Republican conservatism isn't necessarily what the

Bible teaches, but also, but they, but what they haven't done is really looked at what the Bible actually does teach.

And so they're just going the opposite way. And it just kind of, we're not really talking about the Bible enough.

Yeah. Yeah. So, and that's your whole approach to this. Right. Let's talk about the

Bible. Let's talk about immigration policy in the book. You know, we, we, we, you know, we tried to have

Russell Moore on the show and we were sent an email that he wanted questions in advance.

You know, it's like, we're not doing that. You know, and he wanted to come on anyway, if he had the questions.

Oh, he would have come on anyway. He'd have found a reason to reject. But it's just like, I mean, here's the thing about Russell Moore.

He visited Obama eight times during Obama's, eight times.

And it was all to create this immigration policy. Now, now look,

I don't like Obama, but I would absolutely in a heartbeat visit him eight times.

So it's not, not, I'm not saying that I wouldn't go if the president of the

United States invited me to come and talk to him in the white house, but I absolutely would go, but I probably would only be invited back once.

That would be a glorious three minutes for you. Yeah. For the record, that's all public record.

You can Google the white house visitor logs for Obama's administration.

You can search them. You can search Russell Moore and you can see everybody that came there with him. Everybody that came with Russell Moore to, to meet with the president were liberals.

Right. And he, and then he came in. And so I, I, I do think he's,

I honestly, I think he's dangerous. I really do. I think, I don't think he ever really left the democratic party.

I knew he was, he was part of it and he was a fundraiser for the democratic party. And I don't think at least in terms of repenting of his anti -biblical approaches to government,

I don't think he really did. I think he came around on some moral issues like homosexuality and things like that.

But as far as, as far as yeah, abortion and things like that. But I don't think he's ever truly repented of minimum wage laws.

Right. Right. Right. Like, and I, I do say repent because I do believe it is a sin.

It is theft. It is demanding that the government steal money from employers to pay people what they might not deserve.

And so that is purely theft. And so, so like, I know that sounds crazy when you're talking about like immigration policies versus minimum wage laws, but they all have the same impact.

You know, there's a reason why farmers are hiring immigrants because they don't have to pay a minimum wage. It's too high.

So, you know, so let's get rid of minimum wage. Let's have everybody get paid a dollar an hour.

That'll be great. The prices of cheeseburgers at McDonald's will drop to 10 cent again. Like all people just don't think about this.

Right. Like price it because the law of economics demands it. Like it's a law. God created the laws of economics.

They're as solid as, as the, the, the laws of God. So, so like all these things is like McDonald's is not going to sell a $5

Big Mac when people are being paid 10 cent an hour. Like, because they still want to sell

Big Macs. They still want to sell Big Macs. So it's just like, you know, let's get rid of all those things.

If people want to come here and work, let them work. Let's, let's, let's just, you know like Chilton says, just because the government just because something is evil doesn't mean the government should punish it.

And, and to demand that the government punish an evil that it has no authority to is to make the government

God. And so, so you're saying that, that God cannot bring justice in his day at his time.

I need the government to bring justice now against the will of God. And so I think,

I think people fundamentally know this. That's why they were so terrified when Trump became president and they didn't want him to.

Yeah. Because they knew they made the government their God. Yeah.

I think, I mean, I mean, I, I think you actually see it even more clearly with the Supreme court.

Like there was, I mean, I remember just reading the tweets about Ruth Bader Ginsburg and, and praying for her life.

Please live two more years, please. Please live two more years. And there's just like, you know, there's absolutely state worship more so in the

Supreme court. Cause I, I do believe the way our government operates now, the Supreme court is the highest authority in our nation.

And not the president, but the president is second. Yeah. So, but yeah, so it's, it's going to be, it's going to be interesting.

I don't think the Supreme court's ever going to get rid of abortion. And if they do, it doesn't matter. The only way to actually an abortion,

I believe in our country is for a state to repent and for a state, a smaller group of people to repent and to be willing to fight the government to the point of war, not to actually start the war.

But if, if tanks were sent into a state and shooting on citizens who requested that abortion not be illegal in their country, in their state, then at that point,

I think is the only real way that it would end properly. I just don't think a

Supreme court I mean, there could be national repentance tomorrow. There could be somebody could preach a sermon like Jonah and it could just be insane and just sweep the nation.

And that would be amazing, you know, but I just, I don't see that happening.

So I would agree with you. It sounds like what you're saying is, and it's kind of the theme of this whole talk has been about going to the

Bible to find these solutions. And it sounds like this whole thing with the social justice conversation, it sounds like a real opportunity to really be able to start talking about biblical justice in a very real way, not just a very vague general way, because we're being forced to by people who are misapplying it, misunderstanding it.

And I think that that sounds like your strategy forward and that. Yeah. So, so here's the good things about this conversation that's happening.

The first is it's showing the failure of two kingdom theology and new covenant theology.

Those are gone. They're out the window. Russell Moore is the least two kingdom person there is.

Like nobody, nobody uses the Bible to enforce their political policies more than Russell Moore.

They're the wrong exegesis, but he does, he does it. He's not two kingdom in practice.

He's not, not at all. And so, so I think it's shown the fact completely thoroughly and in the most glorious way possible that our nation has to be governed by scripture and everybody's doing it now, which is a lot better than five years ago when nobody was talking about what the government could or couldn't do.

That's right. According to scripture. So they're wrong, but at least that conversation is taking place.

And I think for us as Christians is to stop engaging in what immigration debates or, or all these like microcosms that they want us to fight over.

And just say, let's assume, assume the position that it is wrong or right.

And then, and then let's, let's go to scripture. Right. Right. Let's just go to scripture.

And then let's look at this. Let's look at like the basics, like taxation.

Let's, let's look at how the Bible condemns any tax that is unfairly levied against the rich or the poor.

And it's, that's, that's why the head tax, which I believe is the only tax in scripture, the only mandatory tax in scripture, um, was only get this in today's currency, a dollar and 25 cent a year.

So it was, it was, it was half a shekel. And the reason it was half a shekel was so the rich could pay it and that the poor could pay it.

Right. It wasn't unlevy because God, but can I just have to read these verses? Cause I think this is really important.

Do it, do it. I know we're talking about scripture, but I want to read some actual scripture that'll, um, really bring this point home.

Um, so this is Leviticus 19, 15. It says you shall do no injustice and judgment.

You shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.

That's why there can't be business regulations, right? Because they, they are not fair to the poor who can't afford business, business licenses and regulation.

Um, um, there's a, um, let's see, man, there's so many good ones.

I just have a list here. Yeah. Uh, I want to read the one on the taxes.

Okay. Exodus 30, 11 through 16. It says the Lord said to Moses, when you take the census of the people, the census of the people of Israel, then each shall give a ransom for his life to the

Lord. When you number them and there be no plague among them or when you number them, each one who is numbered in the census shall give this half a shekel.

That's a dollar and 25 cents. It's a, I think it's five, five to six grams of silver, which is a dollar and 25 cents.

So, so, and, and just, just for clarification that silver is a very good, stable source of income.

So thousands of years ago, silver was priced about the same. So it wasn't a 50 % of your income back then.

Okay. Right. So, um, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, um, half a shekel as an offering to the

Lord, everyone who has numbered in the census from 20 years old and upward kids are not taxed.

Um, and it's, uh, probably more also just because it's everyone numbered in the census. That means it's head of the household, not every man, woman, and child.

Um, so it says the rich shall not give more and the poor shall not give less than a half shekel when you give the

Lord's offering to make atonement for your sins. So the rich shall not give more and the poor shall not give less.

I'm, I'm telling you, man, when I read that verse, man, I almost wept.

Talk about biblical justice, right? Well, yeah, cause the, that Bible, the Bible is so clear.

Like it's so clear. And I, I just like, if you're having a debate with a cultural

Marxist, give them that passage and say, why is it God didn't want the rich tax more and the poor tax less?

Why? Yeah. And, and, and, and the answer to that is Leviticus 19 that says you shall do no injustice in judgment.

You shall not be partial to the poor nor to for defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.

Right. I mean, could you imagine just those two principles in our government today?

Like how much would change? Uh, think about, think about all the terrible things that the government couldn't do if it didn't have the cash to do it.

Right. It's right. Yeah. I mean, no, like, yeah. Right.

So, I mean, you know, I always bring this up as an example. When we talk about just the, the huge military that we have,

I know conservatives are really big on having a great big military, but if you look in the Bible, remember

David was bringing his brother's food from home.

Right. They didn't have a chef. Right. For the food. Right.

But that sort of thing is, look, man, if you're going to go to war in such a way that your family has to make you food and go to the battlefield, like it better be an important war that is

Godly and just and righteous, you know? So, so, I mean, you know, Trump just tweets massive threats to Iran like it's nothing.

And I'm sure actually it's probably a good thing because I think these dictators need to be treated like men.

Right. I don't think they've been treated like men by past administrations. So I, to some degree, it's really good and it's public and it's out there.

And so there's evidences and witnesses to these things, but so, so a lot of it's good, but then again, like the military should not be billions and billions and billions of dollars, trillions, sorry, trillions and trillions of dollars.

That's just out, that's outrageous. We are, we, if we're going to go to war, we have to know that it's a war that God is on our side for it because.

Right. Right. So, well, Marcus, I do appreciate your time, man. This has been awesome.

And I think, you know, right when we got cut off, we were talking about what we admire about Trump and, and that's not to say we support him.

Let me just make it that straight to everybody. But one thing I admire about him is his ability to control what is talked about.

He is expert at that. He always controls the conversation. And I think, you know, that's something that you've been trying to do at Apologia.

And, you know, I think that we're getting our butts kicked in that area when it comes to the progressives in the

Christian movement, the social justice Christians are dominating us there. And I'm even guilty of this.

I'm reacting. I'm not really on offense here. And so I think that in order for us to be on offense, what you said today is we really need to know the scripture because otherwise we'll never be able to do any good.

Even if we're, even if we are controlling the conversation. Yeah. I mean, it all comes down to being presuppositional, right?

I think Trump is presuppositional in, in, in the sense that, that he, he knows their arguments against him and he uses it to discredit them.

And sometimes it's by purposely acting like a fool. Um, but because he knows that if he assumes their position, they'll talk about it and they'll, they're, they're talking about it.

Like if, if, if Trump acts like he's stupid, they're going to talk like he's stupid and they're just wasting time.

That, that argument doesn't get anywhere. Right. Meanwhile, he can go and make changes and do whatever he wants. And he's always on the defense, um, uh, offense.

He's always on the offense as opposed to being on the defense. So I do think, I do think he's brilliant. Um, he is, uh, did

I lose it again? No, I'm here. I'm here. Okay, good. I see you. Yeah. Go ahead.

You say he's brilliant. Yeah. I didn't want to end there. All right. No, that's not a good one.

So, uh, that's not good, but he is brilliant, but, uh, he's also morally repugnant. Um, not qualified to be president.

Um, so, um, but it gives me a lot of hope when a really God fearing man who upholds the word of God runs for president one day and has the same, um, speaks with the same authority as Trump does from Twitter.

Like, I think that's what's really freshing is just to see a man be a man. Right. And I don't think there's any denial that,

I mean, when it comes to marriage and adultery, he's not a man, but at least in terms of how he speaks and how he, he, he maintains control and speaks to other men, like men, like there's a lot of our culture.

There's a big part of our culture that just loves that because we haven't seen it. And it's not in our personal lives with our families.

We haven't seen fathers like that. And so, yeah, so be a man. That is the ending advice for Marcus Pitman.

Be a man. I like that. Well, hey, thank you so much. I do appreciate it, man.

And thanks for dealing with the technical stuff with me. All right. Yeah, man. Hey, man, if you got anybody that disagrees with what

I said about going to scripture, I'll come on your show and I will talk to them. Yeah.

I kind of want to have a few conversations with people that would be on the other side of this. And, uh, it's hard to, it's hard to find people willing, but I think

I have a few, so that could be good. I don't know if you saw the apology of studios conversation where they were attacking us for not having people.

I saw that. And then got attacked for requesting that we have people on and then back down.

And it was like, yeah, you shouldn't have people on. So once the

Twitter mob comes, you know, they said, like they said, the Twitter mob was very clear in that discussion that certain people shouldn't have a platform.

I think it's us. They don't want us to have a platform because we can go to scripture.

And, but, but, but then again, I think there are people who are generally, I think they are people that like, um, like Matt Chandler.

I think they're just really genuine Piper. I think they're really genuine people and they're being played as useful idiots.

And they just, they just haven't thought of this. They just haven't thought of this. So it makes me real sad, but, but, you know, hopefully we'll, hopefully we'll have a discussion like that on here and I'll definitely be glad to have you on there because, uh, you know, you do know your

Bible. So I appreciate that. Awesome, man. Well, God bless you, brother.

Keep doing what you're doing. Um, keep putting out those videos, man. And, um, make sure you tell people to subscribe to you every single week, man.

I will, man. You got to get the, if anybody builds a YouTube platform, I think you should definitely be one of the guys.

So thank you so much for the encouragement. I do appreciate it, man. I'll, I'll try, man.

God, God bless you. Have a good night. All right. All right, man. See ya. Bye. Well, I hope you found that helpful and, uh, hopefully we'll be able to do some conversations with people who disagree with Marcus on this issue.

Um, that's what I'm really hoping for. I don't want this to be sort of a dialogue or I'm sorry. I don't want this to be just sort of a monologue where we're just sort of, you know, pontificating on, on, on what we think the

Bible says. And if it has to be that way, then, then, then so be it. However, uh, it'd be better if we

And so, uh, please, if you, if you watch this and you're just like, you guys are off the reservation.

Biblical justice is all about wealth inequalities and alleviating that through the government and, uh, welfare through the government and all of these kinds of things.

If that's your position, we want to talk to you. We will not rip you up. We will not anathematize you unless you're saying that Christ isn't a

God in flesh, you know, that kind of thing. So please reach out to us. We'd love to have a conversation. And, uh, if, uh, if you got any benefit from this video, please give it a thumbs up, subscribe to the channel.

And we hope to do more of these kinds of videos, uh, where we're just talking with people about, uh, these issues of social justice in the church and this particular movement.

Anyway, thanks for Marcus for coming on the show and chatting with me a bit about this. I hope it was helpful.