November 15, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight, seven. Seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Adrian Rogers, the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Changing of the Guard

And welcome to the dividing line today on a Tuesday morning or afternoon depending on where you are. Lots of stuff going on in the world. If you were looking at the blog this morning I mentioned the sad news of the death of Adrian Rogers.

You may have heard that he had prostate cancer as I recall and of course chemotherapy is I Suppose it's it saved a lot of lives. But oh my goodness, that's Not only not something you want to go through but it's just not good on the body either and it Suppresses the immune system and then you can get all sorts of other things.

And so he succumbed to Double pneumonia we had heard about that yesterday as far as double pneumonia and that's not a good thing when you're 74 years of age to get double pneumonia, so. Anyway, his website asks for prayers the Rogers family it of course is sad when anyone passes away and of course some of you have a little bit of a difficulty with the fact that I Mentioned on the blog the fact that even when we reviewed his sermons as sermons which were very inaccurate and not not sound in their in their Presentation of the doctrines of grace.

We mentioned that when he talked about justification all of a sudden he used a completely different hermeneutic and was right on right on target with it and So as I have said many times, I remember the first time that my fellow elder Don Frye used this Analogy with me.

I'm sure it's not original to him but first place I heard it and that is that God can draw a straight line with a crooked stick and That is something we need to keep in mind. He certainly can do so and so Adrian Rogers has passed on there is much to be said about the fact that there is in essence a changing of the guard within the Southern Baptist Convention and What is the next generation going to look like?

What is the role of? Theology gonna have what's the role of the emergent church the seeker friendly movements? What's what is the future for the Southern Baptist Convention? The fact the matter is the numbers Demonstrate a weakness.

We've talked about the fact that in some churches you have to baptize tons of people to get one Regular member and what's the long-term result of that? That's that's a good question. And one that I don't know that I'm in a position to answer.

But it's one that I think people need to be considering and taking a look at. What is the future there of the largest? Largest single denomination. But is it really that large? I mean, how do you how do you really determine the size of any of these these denominations anymore?

Is it showing up on a Sunday morning once a month? Does that really? Make Someone a member of something is that is that real does that have any meaning down the road? I don't know I I personally don't think so.

I Think that those numbers are grossly inflated and when they talk about 16 million members I think if you can't get him to show up at a special meeting on a Friday evening to talk about something important to the church I think the people show up for that those two members of your church and That would mean that those numbers would probably be more like 2 million than 16 million.

Functionally anyway, be that as it may Adrian Rogers has has passed on we also provide a link there to one of two excellent articles on Steve Hayes blog in reference to Paul Owen. Steve Hayes has been Very faithful in investing the time and it is a time-consuming thing.

I don't know where he gets all the time. Evidently, he's not married doesn't have kids because I don't know how you'd be able to keep up with all that stuff if you if you were but He has kept up with Paul Owen's continuing spiral off into the outer reaches of Unorthodoxy and there are some excellent articles on his website right now.

And didn't I see him? He's didn't I see he's joining up with somebody else Some other Blog, huh? I don't know how you keep up with all that. I I can't keep up with my own let alone keep up with all that.

So those things are available on The blog if you take a look at it right now We are continuing the DaVinci code series. And by the way, the phone lines are open at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one continuing the DaVinci code Series right in the middle of the heart of the most important stuff.

I will be presenting the DaVinci code presentation a PowerPoint presentation Here in the Phoenix area on the night of January 8th out at John Drizzo's Church out toward the Gilbert Chandler area out there and Arranging of I'm gonna guess probably the next Sunday morning I would assume a little bit closer to home another church.

We haven't gotten all that figured out yet. But I'll try to remember to mention these in the blog and the calendar things like that. Oh, by the way on the calendar my itinerary for The United Kingdom to Hopefully United Kingdom not sick to.

Some of you remember I went over to England and promptly got myself Tremendously ill and still had one of the best trips of my life to pergola. So they're still enjoyed it Just tremendously despite the sickness.

So I I might explode if I Get over there and I can actually be healthy the whole time. I Got online and ordered two face masks surgical masks. I'm sorry. I don't care what I look like With the guy sitting next to me starts coughing on me.

I'm putting the face mask on it. I don't care. That's a staller is to it. There just ain't enough air moving around in that in that metal tube Six miles up in the atmosphere to keep me happy I'm just not going through that again ain't happiness.

Anyways, the the itinerary and it's a busy one is on Actually pastor Brazier's website Edmonton Baptist Chapel in London and there's a link from the blog. There's a link on the calendar page both so for our friends in the UK We will be over there in February for about two weeks approximately and We'll be both in the London area as well as in Scotland as well, and it'll be nice and I'm actually looking forward very much to that and Addressing a number of different issues a number of different things to look at today.

Of course open phones so we can go the direction you want to go but I was just scanning through and I feel like Every time the subject of Fuller Seminary comes up. I feel like I have to apologize. I Went to Fuller Seminary went to the Phoenix Extension Fuller Seminary.

Extension seminaries are always more conservative than the main campus. Thankfully because the people involved in it already involved in ministry and so all the silliness that goes on on main campuses Doesn't work real well when you're already involved in ministry, but yeah as it may.

We have talked about Fuller Seminary before we've talked about Richard Malle the president of Fuller Seminary and his rather self-destructive activities in the field of Mormon evangelism or seeking to end Mormon evangelism and We've talked about that on the blog we've talked about down the program especially a year ago.

Actually, that was a year ago yesterday, wasn't it? Yeah, it was November 14th of last year. It's been exactly a year hadn't even thought about that and Yes, Jason, we'll see you in London you pop on pop on down to London.

We'll probably do another London version of the dividing line. Where will you adopt our British accent and do things like that and that'll be lots of fun. But anyway. Don't worry, I'm not gonna do the whole program.

But I guess I'm gonna be up in Scotland more this time. So we'll have to do a Scottish a Scottish dividing line as well. You can practice all your glottal stops and things like that. Anyhow a fuller seminary that was a year ago hadn't even thought about that the meeting in the tabernacle and.

What's the main thing that's remembered a year later? Was it? Was it what? Ravi Zacharias said. No, it was what Richard it was what Richard Malle said. He he pretty much sank the whole evening and on that one by.

But anyways, that's neither here nor there. I am actually addressing that in Trying to finish up the additions to is the more of my brother which we're trying to put back in print and I've I actually I'm taking the blog articles I wrote on that and editing them and and addressing that issue and the Erdman's publication of The millet book in the new edition of the book that we'll be putting out as well.

And I can see the end of the tunnel on that little project and hopefully have it done here in a few days. But anyway, the reason I mentioned fuller seminary is some of you may here's a little a little trivia for you.

Some of you have heard the name Mel White, right? Mel White is a homosexual activist and He's written on the subject he was a conservative speech writer a number of folks back in the 80s. He would write speeches for them so on so forth.

Where was the first place that Mel White was told that he was a Christian homosexual. Who who told him that you can be a Christian? Homosexual that you can that that's that that's an acceptable conjugation of terms.

Sort of like Christian Christian adulterer Christian fornicator Christian thief. That it's that it's okay. You know where that was. Yes, you're right. It was a fuller theological seminary professor who?

Female professor who told him that he was a homosexual Christian and. So it's not overly surprising that as I was scanning through my blogs today. Over here. I have one set of blogs that I've got on my laptop and a much fuller set of blogs over here at the at the office and I was looking at.

The Bible of Ambiguity and the Abortion Debate

One of the blogs that makes reference to actually this is the world magazine blog. That makes reference to an article that appeared here in the New York Times which you know normally will give you a rash to even look at anything the New York Times has to say but the ideas and trends article says on abortion it's the Bible of ambiguity the Bible of ambiguity and this is I Think it's one of the most effective attacks that the enemy has launched against the church in Western culture is to rob God's people of The certainty that God has spoken and he has revealed his truth if you can get a Christian to not believe.

That God has spoken with clarity you've got him you've got him. He's gonna be silent. He's gonna be quiet. He's gonna be compromising and of course. I'm just using the he here in the generic He or she are going to that that's gonna be there.

You've got him. They don't have a foundation upon which to stand. Look at what has happened to the liberal denominations the mainline denominations that have lost confidence in The statement that God has spoken.

He's spoken with clarity. They've lost confidence they no longer have a message to proclaim they no longer have anything really to say in essence and as a result well, you can see what's happened, so the approach of many in Western culture today then is to rob you of any confidence that God has spoken to the key issues and.

This particular one of course is on the subject of abortion now I wrote a little piece on abortion. I've preached on abortion. I think that that link is still on the PR BC org website if you'd like to hear that.

But let me just read you some portions from this this article to give you an idea of why even mentioned for seminary we have a Quote I can't take you to a text that says don't commit abortion said Michael J Gorman a professor of New Testament early church history and Dean of the ecumenical Institute of theology at st Mary's seminary and University located in Baltimore.

It just doesn't exist. Does that mean the Bible has nothing to offer on the issue mr.. Gorman who calls himself an evangelical? That's interesting being the head of the ecumenical Institute of theology at st. Mary's seminary.

Anyways, mr. Gorman who calls himself an evangelical cites the early church's opposition to abortion and broader themes that suffuse the scriptures. Rather than specific verses. There is an impetus in the Bible toward the protection of the innocent protection for the weak respect for life respect for God's creation.

For evangelicals who are defined in large part by their reliance on the Bible the question of how the scriptures should be interpreted is crucial. Catholics depend more heavily on the church's moral teachings which are often drawn not from the Bible.

But what they call natural law the innate sense of morality that they believe is written on people's hearts and can be divined by human reason. But evangelicals or at least the members of the vocal religious right who have dominated the issue of the last two decades or so.

Use the words the Bible to make their case in many ways what the Bible actually says and according to whom is. Where the battle over abortion begins? I hope you hear that because if you if you Listened to or read the live blogging of the NBC special Friday night on the birth of Jesus.

All this stuff should sound pretty familiar. Because we're talking about the same things here, you know, it's interesting to me a lot of Christians say well There's just so many things that I can't keep up with all of them in reality if we would teach our people Fundamental skills in Interpretation of the Bible.

Especially in light of modern attacks on it for example I've been doing a whole series what two three years now on the synoptic Gospels at PR BC and if you go to the Sunday School page at PR BC org. You'll see that that's that's there and I was mentioning to folks in class Sunday morning I'd wondered how many had seen the NBC thing on the birth of Jesus because if they had what we have talked about in the synoptic study looking at such things as Telescoping and and what happens when you have different people narrating a similar events and when you have authors that are Attempting to make a certain point and what happens in those situations, etc, etc.

If they had been listening during the Sunday school classes, they would have been in a tremendous position to pick apart much of what was being said in that particular program, but sadly Going through the synoptic Gospels the way we're going through them with a with a harmony of the Gospels right in front of us.

That isn't really normal in a lot of churches. You try to avoid that stuff because that can raise all sorts of very uncomfortable questions. But the fact matter is if you get that foundation all this stuff here we're talking about abortion.

All these issues the the birth of Christ and and the Da Vinci Code and all the rest of stuff. You've got a solid foundation upon which to stand and you don't have to be reading everything. There is to know out there if you're spending your time studying upon the foundation the foundational issues.

That's that's really important. Yeah, that is the key issue. I cannot tell you how many people I'm encountering who agree with me. Someone in channel who's actually off in another land. I don't know if I can mention where he is right now.

Has God spoken and has he done so in such a way that he can be understood? That's the key issue. Modern theology says no no, and we see this because They don't just go running Screaming out of our churches when they've come to conclusion that God has not spoken and he's not done.

So in such a way he can be understood they stay in the church and They try to drag the church their direction. That's why every generation has these battles. Over and over again. That is the key issue right now.

But anyways back to the article. We've already got two callers I appreciate James and Paul. Hold on. We'll get through this article as quick as we can and get to you. One anti-abortion group Michigan Christians for life for instance sells bumper stickers and blazing the Deuteronomy 3019 the verse reads this day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death blessings and curses.

Now choose life so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God listen to his voice and hold fast to him now immediately. Hopefully the listeners to our program go. All right, that is applicable in the sense that you come to the issue with a recognition of What is life what is human life the fact that God is creator, etc, etc.

The passage isn't specifically talking about the subject of abortion in its original context, but it enunciates Concepts that are relevant. Well notice what the New York Times does but some evangelical scholars say the passage has nothing to do with abortion.

Indeed instead it is an exhortation Israelites who fled Egypt and are wandering the desert to obey God's Word the way to true life said John Goldingay a professor of Old Testament at Fuller Theological Seminary outside of Los Angeles actually, it's in Pasadena.

But anyways Which is outside of Los Angeles. It's saying to Israel choosing life means choosing the way of life choosing to obey God's Word. Which has been revealed over the last 30 chapters. Mr. Goldingay said.

Like many professors at evangelical seminaries today Mr. Goldingay teaches his students to pay attention to the genre of the biblical passage. They are studying before interpreting specific verses. Well, um my comment here, duh.

Going back to the quote some passages in the Bible are written as poetry. Oh. Really? I'm sorry full of metaphoric language and imagery and we're never meant to be taken Literally, he said others especially in the Old Testament are written as history and detail God's relationship with his chosen people the Israelites and need To be read as such.

It really bothers me when people like the New York Times try to get into biblical questions. It's is like yeah Duh. Who is who's arguing that? What does that have to do with anything? It's when you then throw all that out and decide that God can't speak in any fashion at all that you get into problems.

We're always trying to work out legal Implications from them as if they were a legal kind of text like interpreting a constitutional document. Mr. Goldingay said the problem is that wasn't what they were designed to do and quote now.

You notice the difference between those two statements. You can have poetry and you can have metaphor and you can have imagery and you can have all that stuff and no one's questioning. That if you've read the Psalter lately if you've read Isaiah lately if you've read anything in the Bible, you know, all that's true.

But that's next statement goes way beyond that doesn't it? Because now when you say well, well, we're all we're always trying to work out legal implications from them as if they were a Legal kind of text like interpreting a constitutional document.

The problem is that wasn't what they were designed to do. Whoa, wait a minute what they were designed to do. What do you mean? What were they designed to do? There's where the question comes in. There's where so many people today say well, you know what?

Um, you just you can't create systematic theology out of the biblical text. It wasn't intended to to function in that way. There's where the shift takes place and there's where the doubt as to whether God has spoken comes in.

I Continue with the article but other evangelical scholars at seminaries that read the Bible more literally. Disagree, what do you mean more literally? Okay. I mean Definitely the quote here just because it's not primarily about abortion doesn't mean we shouldn't draw anything from it said Craig V Mitchell Assistant professor of Christian ethics at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas.

Okay, Southwestern is going to be more conservative than Fuller. No question about that. But does that mean that at Southwestern you don't recognize the genre poetry, etc. Of course not. Of course not.

Those are two different issues. The issue is Can God communicate using those different genres in a way where you can come up with a consistent testimony from Scripture? That's where the question is and the the writer obviously is utterly unaware of them.

He pointed to a passage in the book of Psalms often cited by anti-abortion groups. I wonder where this writers come with them. Anyways, the verses from Psalm 139 read for you create my inmost being you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made your works are wonderful. I know that full well. Now, of course, that is one that is quite often Cited refers directly to the moment of conception about when life begins, etc, etc, etc.

We continue. I'd summarize someone 18 is suggesting that a womb that in the womb from the very first point of conception it's God at work said Scott B Ray a professor of Christian ethics at Talbot School of Theology and Biola University an Evangelical school outside of Los Angeles.

Everything is outside of Los Angeles. Just tell us where it is. Anyway, but again other evangelical Bible scholars differ in this case the writer of Psalms. Which is essentially a collection of songs.

Get the feeling that's supposed to make it somehow less Important is using poetic imagery to celebrate God's special relationship with his chosen people the Israelites and his promise to be with them.

For a thousand generations said Willem a van Gameron. Yes, a professor of Old Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and evangelical seminary outside of Chicago. The issue is not so much of when the moment of conception is at the beginning of life.

But rather they cannot see life apart from their relationship with the Lord Mr. Van Gameron said. For their part some abortion rights not let me just stop there. Can you see what's going on here? The whole point is to create ambiguity.

It's to say see no one really knows. No one could actually cite the Bible and spoil these things because you have all these different voices and I've said many times one of the greatest Evidences of God's judgment upon the church in America is the fact that this is what's taking place.

You are seeing a lack of confidence in what the Word of God says and anybody who wants to go looking for all sorts of different perspectives is going to be able to find it and That results in a lack of confidence in what the Word says.

For their part some abortion rights supporters Frequently turn to a passage in exodus 21 that sets out guidelines for these realites on how to resolve a dispute in which a pregnant Woman intervenes between two men fighting and is struck if men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman.

She gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury. The offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is a serious injury you are to take life for life eye for eye tooth for tooth hand for hand foot foot burn for burn wound for wound bruise for bruise.

Abortion rights activists argue the passage shows the fetus is assigned a Lower value than the woman because of a premature birth occurs. They say the baby dies then the punishment is only a fine compared to life-for-life eye-for-eye if the woman is killed.

You can't make everything of that passage said Paul D Simmons an ethics professor at University of Louisville Who once taught at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. What you can establish is there's a clear distinction between a fetus and a woman.

But mr. Von Gameron of Trinity said the conclusion is shaky arguing the passage remains shrouded in ambiguity. We don't quite understand what exactly happens to that child he said. According to mr. Van Gameron and many other evangelical Bible scholars No single passage in the Bible clearly supports the anti-abortion stance.

But they argue that the broad narrative the Bible with its themes of creation God's blessing life and humanity bearing the image of God speak against abortion. Of course, nothing addresses abortion directly Mr. Van Gameron said but the biblical inference as accepted over the centuries as a witness that cannot be ignored.

Interpreting a Bible as difficult as it is Becomes only more so when theologians are asked how abortion should be legislated if it should be legislated at all. Some scholars speak in absolutes off others cited exceptions still others wax eloquent about the need to turn society away from its individualistic ethos and The need to pay equal attention to other biblical priorities in the end as it turns out.

It is a complicated business bringing a complicated Bible Into a complicated world now. I've written on this subject before and in point of fact Wrote specifically on the excess 21 issue for the CRI journal and have addressed that in that context.

If you'd like to take a look at that and we've also addressed it on the blog as well. But this is the kind of thing that that people just truly enjoy doing. Let's get together a bunch of folks and You know make this as as confusing as possible say that no one can really know and then just leave it with Disagreements.

Don't actually get these folks together and see if they can come to a conclusion. Just leave it as if there are disagreements there that simply cannot possibly Be answered eight seven seven seven five three three three four one the phone lines are open today.

How to Respond to Mormon Missionaries

Let's talk with James down in Baton Rouge. Hi James.

I don't. I'm doing pretty good. What's going on today? Well, all righty. Talk with your men and play about it inside of James and how they disagree with what the word teaches or well.

A couple different ways to go here if they're actually willing to to talk with you for any length of time and That approach they've used with you James 1 5 showing you Moroni chapter 10. And the alleged promise found there in regards to praying about the Book of Mormon verses 4 5.

That's that's the old style way of doing things and there's a couple of different ways that you can you can respond this if you Really like to have the opportunity of talking with them over a period of time.

Simply saying well, I'm gonna start off by saying the canon of Scripture is closed and I reject all further revelations and blah blah. Probably is going to shut that door fairly quickly as far as talking with these guys.

There's a couple different ways that you can handle this on our website in the apologetic section under Mormonism. You will see a very old document I wrote this on a on an 4 megahertz 8088 Compact computer with a about an 8 inch green screen.

I I think I still have sight damage from from the effort. But it is a hundred verse memorization system. And there is a specific section on the Mormon testimony and also on praying about the Book of Mormon.

You might want to take a look at that. Also in letters to a Mormon elder there's a whole section on that specific issue and praying about the Book of Mormon and being able to give a reasoned response as to why you believe that is tempting the Lord and That it is not the means by which we come to know what the truth is.

But to open a door to these fellows what I have often suggested if you have the time to do it if you are in a sound church and You've you're you're you're sound and and and Rooted where you are the the way to open the door to these fellows would be to did they give you a Book of Mormon?

Right. I told them that I would not pray about it and ask God if it wasn't a revelation. And are they gonna be coming back?

Okay. Here's here's what I've suggested to folks. You know, I don't suggest that everyone just sit down and read the Book of Mormon if you're moving to to Utah. You sort of need to do that. But in a situation like this what you can do is you can read a portion of the Book of Mormon specifically the book of third Nephi the reason is third Nephi records the alleged ministry of Christ amongst the Nephites here in this hemisphere and what that allows you to do is to compare and contrast the Jesus of Mormonism even the G is the Book of Mormon.

Recognizing of course the Book of More is written long before Joseph Smith developed the polytheistic perspective that that became orthodoxy from Mormonism after that, but still The Jesus of Mormonism differs from the G is the Bible and you can use The differences found in Jesus's ministry amongst the Nephites.

The fact that for example before he comes there is this huge earthquake and darkness for three days. And and in essence what happens in the Book of Mormon is is all the evil people are destroyed. No, the righteous people left then Jesus shows up and it's like wait a minute.

That seems backwards. Jesus is coming to to to minister to those, you know, it's not those that are righteous that need the the. The physician it's it's those who are unrighteous and he's not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance and and so I used that even years and years and years ago and I first spoke to the Mormon missionaries and before I had even had a chance to read all the Book of Mormon.

I read third Nephi and by my the fact that I was willing to do that and then use that as the bridge to go into a discussion of the biblical view of who Jesus Christ is over against the Mormon viewpoint opened a huge door because let's let's let's put ourselves in their Shoes for just a moment a moment over just a Mormon.

For just a moment if if someone came to you or if you were seeking to speak with someone let's say you have a Muslim neighbor that that moves in and He doesn't have a Bible and and you seek to try to give him the New Testament to read about Jesus.

He's. I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna look at that so on so forth. The doors could be closed really it is and you're gonna be like wait a minute. Why wouldn't you be willing to? Listen to what you know what the Bible has to say to look at this.

Obviously coming from the other direction when they find someone who is willing to At least read third Nephi if not the whole Book of Mormon. Which is not doesn't really take a whole lot period time to do that.

But at least read third Nephi and and say you know what? When I look at my Bible now, I've looked at what third Nephi says here's the questions. That's something that's going to be most likely to cause them to to stick around longer than then just simply not making any effort whatsoever to show a willingness to to dialogue and to go to go both directions now if That is not a possibility or if it's not something that you desire to do.

Then what you need to be prepared to do is to deal with the materials that I mentioned in letters to a Mormon elder and On the hundred verse memorization system, and that is to explain why? You believe that the Bible is the Word of God in its final form and That anything that comes after that is going to be contradicted up of course the problem.

Is you then have to you know be prepared for the question well? Where does the Book of Mormon or the dr. Conesberger price contradict what the Bible says where does it substantiate that and you can certainly do that?

But if you haven't actually read it, then they're gonna be able to say well You're just taking those things out of context. That's where the problem comes in at that point so That that's what I suggested to folks I mean There's lots of different directions you can go even standing at the doorstep in Regards to going to Hebrews chapter 1 and and see you know the old way of revelation was God spoke to us through Through the prophets, but now in these last days.

He's spoken by his son. Why have you gone back to an old way? That's really the case with both Islam and Mormonism is they've they step away from the high standards of the New Testament they go back to the old ways of of human religion and they go back to the old ways of Well we need to have prophets or imams or whatever it is and so on so forth and they step away from that high Standard of the New Testament, so you can you can do that?

But it's the the chances that they're going to be really sticking around for any length of time Are diminished unless you can somehow demonstrate that you know what? The guys I'm not just here to debate you.

You know I'm concerned about you. You're out here given two years of your life at a very important part of your life. And and I really have a message for you, and I really do believe that you've been misled you've been you've been led astray.

But I'm I'm not just doing this because I saw a movie at my church once that says you all are a bunch of You know Cultists or something like that. Instead by doing it that direction you lay a foundation and you're able to hopefully build upon that foundation though of course you know more missionaries are more missionaries and Many of them are very resistant to any type of conversation where there's going to be any contradiction of their beliefs.

It's going to be going to be aired in the long over long term. And they also try to mix up the the the people that are coming to you. They're not going to want to have the same two guys meeting with you over and over and over again unless You are giving very strong evidence.

You're ready to be baptized or something which of course isn't going to be taking place, so You know Those are some of the ways to try to get a conversation started all right. Okay, thanks a lot for calling all right.

God bless. Bye. Bye eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one I guess we'll go ahead and take a real quick break and then come back With Paul and a question about the Da Vinci Code and your calls as well if you'd like to get in eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one we'll break.

The Trinity, the Roman Catholic Controversy, and the Da Vinci Code

Try to save your soul. It's all works righteousness, you know. Can I manufacture grace myself to die in some religious place? By weeping hard on your face saying prayers.

The Trinity is a basic teaching of the Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us. James White's book the Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters.

It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian and. Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit the Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the Trinity.