97. An INTERVIEW With Dr. Uri Brito

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Hello everyone and welcome back to the broadcast where we prod the sheep and beat the wolf this episode 97 an interview with Uri Brito right

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Well, hello and welcome back to the broadcast today a special episode as we're gonna be interviewing my friend

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Uri Brito He is a doctor. He is a pipe smoker. He really likes fine scotch

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I think right I am learning how to enjoy scotch my my associate pastor and my good friends

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Make up for my lack of knowledge There you go. Well, you're on your way Also, dr.

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Brito has recently the last time we interviewed him. It was it was thinking that it was gonna happen now

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It has happened. He is the presiding minister of the CREC, which congratulations brother. Thank you very much

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Now, I guess that's a good place to start. What is the CREC? What is this crazy group of blue -collar?

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High -worship Vikings that are trying to take over everything. What are they? Yeah, we are surely a strange breed but we've been in existence now for 25 years and our history is really a very humble history in the beginning back in 1998 there were three independent churches in the

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Northwest that had some relationships build some friendships build among these three men and They couldn't find themselves in a particular place in the historical narrative of denominationalism and so they decided to sort of form of a an alliance a

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Confederation among the three churches those three churches in the last 25 years have now grown to a hundred and thirty churches so God has prospered our ways and Immensely and God has been very gracious to us and the

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CREC which stands for the communion of reform the evangelical churches is a communion of churches a denomination by definition who have aligned themselves around the

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Catholic Reformed dogma of The Reformation building through the post -reformation era puritanism and all the way to to our own day so we have within our 500 years of history a quite a repertoire of Confessions that we can borrow from and learn from and got and receive guidance from the

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CREC To be a member of the CREC as a church. You can subscribe to Ten confessions actually you can subscribe to confessions like the

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London Baptist Confession You can subscribe to the 39 articles. You can subscribe to the Savoy Declaration and of course the classic

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Westminster Confession three forms of unity so there's a lot of reformational diversity within the

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CREC and and that in some way is what's given it a this remarkable flavor of Catholicity in an age where this unity reigns in our evangelical society and Many people candle throughout the last four years

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Let's say from the beginning of kovat have found refuge in the CREC as a place for safety

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Because they believe that our denomination offered an objective word when the political priests of the day were offering subjectivity if not that Tyranny when it came to our own consciences

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But the CREC hasn't grown simply because of our our strong position on kovat our former presiding minister

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Mr. Pastor Virgil Hurt from Virginia took some very strong positions and in many ways provided a kind of framework for the

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CREC to form their own political ideas and to express them very publicly and As I continue now following in his footsteps, it's my goal to preserve what

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I call a kind of ecclesial conservatism that subscribes to a

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An ecclesiology that places the church as the the center of the framework of the kingdom of God but also a conservative politic and a conservative theology a conservative politic in Preserving society under the

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Lordship of Jesus in everything that Jesus has done and does now as that our

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Ascended Lord in guiding the governmental structures of history as Psalm 2 in Psalm 110 state but also theologically to we want to conserve the theology given by our forefathers and so we are in the line of Calvin Booth sir

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Luther and In many ways as Vingly also, but also our Puritan forebears

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So the CREC in summary is this broad reformed

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Catholic? communion of churches and we are bound by conservative principles both theologically and Sociologically as well, but we have come together in 25 years.

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God has really prospered our ways And as we move to the next 25 years, I know they're going to be difficulties with any

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Institution that is growing but God has really Laid down some groundwork in our previous presiding ministers and through our local churches

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That have helped me get to this point and be fairly confident as we move forward

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That's great a couple things I want to ask about and well actually one of them is just a tip of the hat back to our first interview

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Where we talked about ecclesiocentrism and how that actually is the engine for building Christendom So if you if you want to check that out, it's on our

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YouTube playlist for anybody who's watching But you mentioned a second ago Reformed Catholic now and play devil's advocate for a second.

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I know what you mean, but that sounds like an oxymoron I mean, wasn't it the Reformation that overturned the the heresies the

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Catholic Church. What do you mean by reformed Catholic? right, the the Reformation certainly protested offered a a

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Remonstrance of sorts against the prevailing Western Church of the 16th century which according to the

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Reformers had in many ways abandoned the the history of the

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Western Church by allowing for Uncleanness corruption within the church for allowing for the abuse of clergy in terms of how they viewed the the sacraments for example for in all sorts of I like to phrase all sorts of Economic turmoil was taking place within the

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Western Church and the Reformation is a response to that the word Catholic can be sometimes confusing especially for people who come from a

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Different evangelical background come to our churches and they're confessing this one. Holy Catholic an apostolic

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Church you know the term itself refers to wholeness or completeness or Universal so what we're affirming with reform is we're we're limiting it

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Limiting it to the the reform expression which comes in many shades Of course

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Scottish the the Irish the the American the British But then the word

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Catholic means we wanted the broadness of the Reformational world We're not specifying the brand of Reformational history

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We want to be committed to solely like in other denominations like the

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PCA or the OPC who function through the basis of the Westminster Confession large and shorter catechism the

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CRC broadens that scope to include virtually all the main orthodox traditions that have sprung since 1517

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Awesome. Yeah, that was my next question. Is is that why we allow so many? Confessions and and you answered that well,

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I know for me I was looking for something. I came out of the SBC and then became

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Pato Baptist and That clearly didn't work anymore One of the things I appreciated about the

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SBC is also one of the things I did I struggled with it for But it was a big tent The reason

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I struggled with it in the SBC is it was so big that it can include Rick Warren and Tom Askell and Jared Longshore and I'm like what kind of a group can include that level of diversity.

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So in some level I wanted a broad group But but that was obviously pushing the bounds of insanity on how broad that was

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Another thing that I wanted when we were coming in to the Shepherd's Church The Shepherd's Church was coming in to the

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CRC is I wanted a group that that really doctrinally affirmed six day creation and weren't

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Loose on that. I talked to so many denominations in my in my search for where to go and It was 50 -50 or it was 60 -40 it was we don't really take a stand on that view there's theistic evolution

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There's this there's that and some people are six -day and I just thought man you really that's the beginning of the

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Bible You've got to get that right. So I wanted a group that affirmed that and then the other

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Doctrine was post -millennialism and I joked in my floor when I was on the floor of Presbytery That I Wanted a denomination that I could trust

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Handled the beginning in the end of the Bible because you can't handle the beginning in the end Why should I trust you in the middle? Right, right well, the the one way the

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CRC has has been able to bring forth this this level of Cohesiveness because for any outsider and I've been interviewed by various podcasts for any outsider looking what's happening

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They're saying themselves. This is the definition of schizophrenic How can you allow you know in many many

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OPC churches? You must agree with the Westminster Confession before becoming a member and the CRC Church You can take an exception to these things, you know

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And so how can you allow Baptists to be within in this in this broadly reformational tradition when

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Baptists historically have not been reformed in sort of its its 16th -century definition and we want to broaden that but then

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Perhaps other traditions have attempted to do something like we're attempting. So how do we preserve? That level of not just orthodoxy in the reform sense, but also the level of cohesiveness

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So that you don't have the kind of disharmony that you see in the Southern Baptist.

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For example, we can have Armenians some variation of open theism here and then your hardcore

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Calvinist over there, right? And the way we do that is what through you mentioned you mentioned the memorials and the the memorials are essentially their position issues

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On which the CRC has taken a stand But they're not in our confessional statements.

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And so it's another layer of protection so you have the the confessions which provide a a form of theological conservatism and then

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There's this other layer called memorials and these memorials there contain

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Contained in the book of memorials and they they contain certain statements that the

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Reformers didn't address Mm -hmm, right. So for example, obviously There was the debate in abortion in the 16th century.

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There were some debates, but it wasn't codified concerning foreign policy There were you know discussions on a host of issues but issues of sexuality wasn't something consider why well because there was

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Universality to these issues, right? And so this area wasn't wearing a dress Exactly.

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It's exactly right, but he was wearing a hat by the way, but it's a different conversation And what you see is you have this these political layers that allow us to say we're confessional

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But we don't simply end with theological harmony We want a kind of political and sociological harmony as well that will allow our churches to function

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In a way that doesn't lead us to to fracture to fracture in a variety of ways.

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So there are no Democrat pastors in the CRAC right and I'd be very surprised.

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Are there any Democrat members in CRAC? we are vastly a Body of let's say politically, you know libertarians theocrats

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Republicans conservatives in the in the you know in all sorts of flavors And so that that the memorials add cohesiveness and then issues like creation for example, right?

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I Think the confession talks about creation It says in the space of six days, but the memorial goes a step farther and says no

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I'm not giving you any breathing room to interpret the space of six days as You know the space of six epics, right the memorial specifically delineate and Indicate very clearly that we're looking at a young earth creationism a calendar day view

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Which incidentally was the position of Calvin and was the position of Luther? Yeah, but in the day where the

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Presbyterian Church of America are a larger conservative denomination United States in a day when they have upheld 11 acceptable positions on creation

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The CRC has made that abundantly clear. No, we have one position on creation Because of what you said and that is that if we don't understand the beginning

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We're gonna have a hard time understanding the end. And so we want that theological Logic to flow from Genesis to Revelation and what that will do in some ways is it'll keep a lot of churches from wanting

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To join us. Yeah, and I think we should say, you know, yes and amen to that But it also surely surely keeps the

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Academy from loving us and We are very happy to make the right kinds of enemies

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Amen well -spoken brother speaking of the end And in times and all of that most maybe you would agree with this

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I think you would most reformed denominations are not pre -millennial They're not pre -millennials redheaded steps on dispensationalism

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But the majority would probably fall into what amillennialism in the reformed denominations

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Yeah, most certainly I think the there were a couple, you know, they're there over 30

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Presbyterian denominations United States They're there a couple micro denominations like the the Bible Presbyterians, which was where Francis Schaeffer came from They're pre -millennial, but they're barely in existence today.

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So they're there Have certainly decreased the numbers over the last 80 to 100 years of their their existence and but the vast majority

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I think of a reformational conservative bodies would fall in the amillennial sphere

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Which I think the late R .C. Sproul sort of referred to it as a happy parking lot position reformed denominations, so that's where they fall and the the the position in many ways

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Allows people to sort of breathe Without having to take a dogmatic stand on the on the timing of the

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Millennium, right? I'm Millennium symptoms with no Millennium And so they they would affirm that the

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Millennium period began in the the incarnation of Jesus and continues to the end of history But they're not taking a position specifically on when

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Jesus will come at the end of history. And so that's a in some ways what that does is

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It allows people to look at the text and offer a very generic

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Approach to it without having to take a particular position another aspect of this and and I want us to get into post -millennialism, but I feel like that Amillennialism really puts the kingdom and in all of its growth and all of its impact in heaven in in the spiritual realms

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And Post -millennialism, this is an oversimplification. I know one's more pessimistic one's more optimistic

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But post -millennialism says no the kingdom has an impact here on the ground. It doesn't just it's not just a spiritual kingdom

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That's gonna grow the church. It's a kingdom. It's gonna take over the entire world. Is that a fair? juxtaposition of those two views and and is that sort of why a lot of the

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Reformed Church has become overly pietistic even Because it's it's a spiritual kingdom that affects me.

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It's it's a sacred secular divide Yeah, it's the old say sacred secular divide which has come under a lot of interesting, you know discussions these days with Christian nationalism and the recovery of Thomism as a as an interpretive tool to understand the the magisterial reformers

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But I think you're bringing a good point and what we see I think in many traditions is the fear that local churches can become overly politicized and so that So that in the 1980s you have something of the moral majority, you know

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They're beginning in in Liberty University with Jerry Falwell Which many of our Reconstructionist forefathers were invested in?

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But the moral majority was one way of saying in a very tangible way That the church has been too focused on pietism and now the church needs to fight back

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Now interesting enough the moral majority was fighting back with a dispensationalist framework, right which was bound to failure

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But they did open some doors for the political discourse. However, many mistakes they made I think there's a great benefit even the more majority

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But I think what you see in the broad reform world is that because of this amillennial impulse The church becomes the not only the beginning but also the end of everything so that it's very

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Possible with people like the you know, the the white horse in podcast is probably the biggest proliferation of amillennial eschatology.

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I Think in podcast history in the last 20 30 years. I think 20 but it exists for over 20 years for sure

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And Michael Horton being one of the primary Apologists for that position that the thing that matters is the the regulation of how life functions within the realm of the church itself and that regulation begins and ends with the the assembly gathering and so that the that the worship itself becomes this divine intervention

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Where heaven comes down and shapes the the the body and the corpus of worship

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But then that doesn't overflow into what happens Monday through Saturday and so I remember even many pastors that I who might come in contact with to say something like We don't make

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Applications from the text because that is the job of the Holy Spirit to apply the text Our role is simply tell you what the text means and we'll tell you what the imperatives mean

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But in a very broad sense, but what really matters is the indicative and the indicative refers to what

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Jesus has done for us Right, and so that leads to all sorts of interesting dynamics.

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It leads to figures like boss tradition, for example, right, I'm sorry to lead to vision for example who sort of embraced the

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What Terry Johnson called the grace boys and the grace boys all they cared about was talking about grace

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How God changes us how the grace of God changes us But and so it was all it became a message in piety and the message was

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Cheer up. You're worse than you think but then be ever joyful because God is greater than you can ever imagine and so the message was

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Screw up a lot Sin boldly to paraphrase Luther. Yeah, because the grace of God is bolder still to redeem you and so it viewed theology and eschatology through the lens of We are constantly in this great

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Universal struggle against our humanity against fighting in flesh and blood world.

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So you were always Dialoguing with the spirit and so it does create this spiritualized

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Composition and so now that the work of politics is not Entry it's not interesting nor is it a worthy endeavor?

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Because God is preserving his people in the church and our goal is to create a sort of piety within but that piety cannot go without because Christ rules over the spiritual realm and the physical realm is destined to to be doomed and The goal of the church itself is to preserve itself within the realms of orthodoxy

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So at the end of history Christ will come and and rescue us And so the way I have illustrated this just as a final point

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Kendall the way I have illustrated. This is that the main difference Fundamentally between our millennial eschatology and post -millennial eschatology is

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That in our millennial ISM Christ comes back at the end of history to rescued a bruised and beaten bride

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Mm -hmm in Post -millennial ISM Christ comes back at the end of history not to rescue but to receive a victorious bride you know and out of all the the

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The illustrations that I've attempted to come up over the years That's the one has stuck the most with my listeners and readers that that's illustration.

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I think makes sense and that's illustration I think where I'm millennial eschatology would agree with now all that to say there are different flavors of our millennial

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ISM Some will even start throwing things out like optimistic on millennial ISM And what that is is an attempt to have the best of both worlds, right?

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Which I argue that post -millennial ISM offers a Strong Puritan strand within But also it offers a strong robust biblical theology and so if you read

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Ian Murray's the Puritan hope you'll get a very strong Puritan flavor and if you read

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You know guys like like James Jordan and Peter Lightheart and Even Doug Wilson certain extent you'll get a healthy biblical eschatology as well within a post -millennial

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Within post -millennial boundaries. Yeah as you were speaking The the more radical side of our millennial

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ISM really? I mean, it's just eschatological Gnosticism It's the spiritual world is good

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I enter into this spiritual world when I come to church and when I go into my quiet time But the rest of the world is is this space that's doomed this matter that's evil

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I mean that that's Gnosticism bitches rebranded with an eschatological system, right? Yeah, that's it's

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Gnosticism Patrick. That's exactly that's exactly what What you have within these radical and we sometimes refer to them as radical two kingdom

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Theology, which is I mean not to be confused with the two kingdom approach that the Reformers took Right radical to kingdom approach that folks in Escondido, for example have taken

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Essentially articulates that the that the spirit is what God has come to to rescue and so What you do when in that with particular framework is that God is only interested in rescuing the holy things but the unholy things the creation that is

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Mourning and grieving and is going through birth pains, you know that kind of creation That creation needs to go through the law of entropy and it needs to slowly fade

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So that a new creation can come at the end of history and replace that This parent present creation is destined for failure and to be doomed

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Since Genesis chapter 3 the new creation, which is coming in the in the second coming

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That's the creation that we long for so Because we're not looking for the application of the rulership of Jesus to be

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And a heavenly investment in the current political earthly realm Because of that the church now has a duty to focus exclusively on what it does

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That's why the amillennialists of the radical variety are all very committed to the very strict regulative principle of worship

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Mm -hmm because they're very invested in applying the relative principle to worship itself because that's what truly matters and the

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What's unique about this approach is that? We would also be favorable towards a regulative principle

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But we don't think that the Bible is to be regulated merely from its New Testament corpus

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We want the entirety of the scriptures to shape the familial ecclesiastical and civil sphere

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Yeah, and if that's the case then there are Distinct principles in the

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Mosaic law that ought to be applied to the earthly to the earthly terrain and that's where you find a massive

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Disagreement upon these two schools that one wants the application solely of the

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New Testament Limited to the church and another our our crew our tribe the

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CREC Once the application of the entire Law of the Old and New Testament to be the starting point of how we think about family church and state

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Yeah So just to summarize and and I want us to move now towards postmillennialism to sort of define it and build that up but You've got two views that basically are saying the same thing about the beginning and the end

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The beginning of the end times is that we're not in a literal thousand -year reign both

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Amillennialism and postmillennialism would agree with that that it that it is an Indeterminate period of time in the same way that Jesus doesn't own cattle on a thousand hills, but not a thousand and one

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It's not just a thousand generations. That's a big number. That means all generations are gonna be under his blessing

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So postmillennialism amillennialism agrees with that and we agree at the final destination New heaven and new earth that we're gonna live with Jesus in a perfect redeemed glorified body

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And we're gonna worship him on a new earth. So we we both agree with that, but it's the destination on on how we get there that that it's that's the difference postmillennialism if I were to summarize is is

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A you start off in a desert and you end up in a garden You know in a nice leisurely drive that might take you some time to get there

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Amillennialism is a plane crash happens you wake up and you're in paradise But you both get to the paradise.

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It's just a way on how you get there. Is that is that a fair way to sort of juxtapose these views Yeah, I think so.

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I think it's a good way to phrase it the good sort of down -to -earth illustration there and I think what you're going to see in in these in these two expressions are an attempt to reconcile the biblical language of Of suffering of glory of the church being both triumphant militaristic, but also a martyrdom body, right and Again, I always keep coming back and I've read virtually every major tome and amillennialism old ones and new ones

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Right from the Dutch guys all the way to the guys in Escondido and Kim riddle

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Barger and all these guys but I always keep coming back to the post -millennial view because It fulfills all the demands that they want of an eschatology.

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Yeah, and it offers more So that now you have this holistic approach to civilization

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That is not merely left to the individual I mean an application of the amillennial framework at least in them the

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Escondido dimension. Is that somebody like Michael Horton can have two

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Politicians come to his show One is a Democrat one is a Republican and he can say because the

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Bible doesn't lay out these specific ideas on life

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That means that we can have two different strategies In other words the

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Republican wants to end the by I mean by and large or at least some of us Want to end abortion yesterday?

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Yeah, but the Democrats the the two kingdom varieties want to say something like well

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We want to end abortion But we want to offer a different strategy to end abortion and that is by providing

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Providing housing and government welfare for mothers who are who are single and pregnant

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And what we want to say is that no that is actually the duty of the church to deal with out of wedlock pregnancies

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The duty of the state is to apply the law of God and to say pregnancies

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Abortion will not happen here. Not in my house and So these are two perspectives one allows for this kind of strategizing because they're saying the

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Bible doesn't address it specifically therefore Hmm and the other one says no, no, even if you don't have a chapter in verse that says thou shall not have

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An abortion and facility 37 in Detroit. What it does say is it necessarily it deduces?

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that abortion ought to be inconceivable and that we ought to ban it and so and then the

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The overflow of that work that's up to the church to take care of mothers who are struggling and so that has a phenomenal practical

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Ground application to it that I think sometimes advocates of amillennialism don't want to see now as I follow this conversation for a long long time a millennialism in many ways

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Have lost that traditional bearing that you saw in some Dutch theologians

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And what they're doing unbeknownst to them is what they want to do Is they want to borrow the worldview of post -millennialism so that they can't be charged for inconsistency

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But in my in my estimation and I'm happy to for people to define themselves as they see fit

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In my estimation they are they want to embody this theological paradigm.

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They call amillennialism But practically they're functioning like us and so I'm okay with how they define themselves because I think in this case

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We have won the battle in the same way that I think reformed

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Baptists are trying to live off of Covenant reform principles in the way they raise their children

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You know, I think I'm a linguist want to do that with with post -millennialism and I am content with all sorts of amillennialism the

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CREC who feel the same way and Even maybe the one or two who feel that they need to keep their terminology as I'm ill

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Are still functioning like us and I think the reformed Baptists who are in the CREC Raise their children as if their children were

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Baptized as infants, you know, so I think that's the that's it's in some ways I'm very comfortable with that level of paradigm that they have embraced, right?

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Yeah, we're definitely not distinguishing in this episode Between the problems that are inherent within dispensationalism

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It's not that level of dysfunction with amillennialism, these are our brothers in the reformed faith we disagree on The nature of how the kingdom is gonna work itself out over time

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But these I mean in dispensationalist our brothers as well But there's some dysfunction in that view that is not true in the amillennial view the amillennial view is a robust view

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We just disagree on the nature of how the kingdom comes in With that that's exactly right

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Yeah with that I'd like to sketch out a theological vision for what postmillennialism is we've thrown out the term

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But as pastors we've got to define our terms. So brother sketch out. Let's say

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I've never heard of postmillennialism before and What is it? Well, sometimes definitions are ingrained within the words itself

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And so the millennial the millennial part of postmillennialism is a terminology taken from Revelation chapter 20

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Which is a very, you know unique passage that I've addressed in a few different occasions but so that refers to the thousand years given there and I think that the vast majority of postmillennialism has

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At least certainly the last 100 200 years had viewed that millennial period as a symbolic period for a long

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Season of history and so for us the millennial reign of Jesus began in his incarnation and that's why

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Most of our hymnody that's why the prophets speak of Jesus as king

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He's king over an epic of history and that epic extends from his birth all the way to his coming again

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So his first parousia and his final parousia the post means it's a sign, of course that Jesus will come after the millennial reign and So the second parousia the second coming will take place after this prolonged period of time we call the millennium unfolds for the

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Postmillennialist that means this long period of time Five ten fifteen twenty a hundred thousand years.

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We don't know will be a kind of incremental Historical narrative and the applications our own

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Christian lives would begin as infants a Seed is planted, but then we grow in our sanctification

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Because the seed grows or history is the development of its own sanctification history grows we would be very uncomfortable if we said that That the history of the

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Christian life individually is a history that remains the same Or a history that decreases historically

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But then we don't make that application historically because historically the application should what what fits historically should fit individually

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That's the premise and historically what we see. I mean if you just think numerically Kendall When you begin with 12 and now you're up to 2 .3

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billion people claiming Christianity, you know any standard mathematician will say that's a positive thing

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And you should affirm that historically as well the church has time on her side and she moves

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Not from glory to misery, but biblically the Bible says she moves from glory to glory and so what that means is what we're seeing is the planting of the seeds of redemption taking place, but Jesus Christ who is the true seed of the woman and That seed begins to blossom historically as the church conquers more and more through her evangelism through her missions and Through her proclamation as Matthew 28 says in teaching them to observe all things.

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I have commanded you Lo, I'm with you always even to the end of the world and that great

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Commission begins with that premise all Authority in heaven and earth has been given to me And so it's not you know,

36:08

I know that everybody knows that verse But we want to affirm that verse in all its splendor and glory all

36:16

Authority in heaven if we had stopped there, there would be something significant to consider about pre and amillennial eschatology

36:27

But because Jesus receives all authority heaven and on earth Then whatever is said after that Needs to carry that imprint in its mission

36:38

So that's the the slogan of history all authority is given to Jesus in heaven and on earth and the postmillennial view simply seeks to live out that premise and To believe that the promises of God are yes, and amen not perhaps or not

36:57

Maybe or skeptically so but yes, and amen Yeah, it reminds me of some of the parabolic language in Scripture, right

37:07

You've got a little stone that becomes a mountain that fills the entire world you've got a lump of dough that that leaven leavens the entire lump you've got a

37:17

Mustard seed that fills the entire garden with its branches You you've got this sort of starting point, which is small and seemingly insignificant

37:26

And yet it entirely Takes over everything kind of like Georgia and Florida kudzu, right?

37:34

Yeah That's exactly right Yeah, so biblically speaking brother.

37:41

How did you come to this view? What's a biblical case for postmillennialism? Like, you know, did you learn it?

37:47

Is there a verse that that's that really tipped the scales for you? Is it more of a biblical theology

37:53

Genesis to Revelation? Like how did you come to it? Well, I think in some ways it's like coming to infant baptism

38:01

You know, I remember my my late friend Greg Strawbridge and we are about to celebrate two -year

38:08

Anniversary of his death and it was just one of my dearest friends. I preached in his funeral and Greg was debating

38:16

James White whom you know, I have just a fond appreciation. I've met him numerous times and Greg began that debate in infant baptism talking about a theology of water which went completely over the heads of everybody who was there present including

38:30

James White and In some ways when you look at infant baptism if you see water in the

38:36

Old Testament The first thing that comes to mind is infant baptism Right. There are many washings or infant baptisms

38:44

The theology of crossing of the Red Sea infant baptism, you know was flood infant baptism and lo and behold

38:50

The New Testament writers borrow all these analogies to make the case for infant baptism, right?

38:58

Post -millennialism is the same way is That everything once you buy into that vision

39:04

Everything becomes a message of hope the birth of Jesus becomes a message of hope the

39:12

Chantedness of the triune God in creation becomes a message of hope why? Because you see the creation of all these elements of Sun Moon and stars

39:23

You see the creation of creeping things and sea creatures and sky and and all these divisions in history right in the first six days of creation and Then you see on the sixth day you see man being created as the pinnacle the apex of this creation

39:41

So he's at the height of this creation paradigm so you see at the very least biblically

39:47

That man is in charge of days one through five He rules by day and so and he rules by night and in Psalm chapter 8 that principle is there too

39:59

Out of the mouth of babes and infants. I have declared Your praises to frighten the foe and Avenger.

40:05

And so what is man that you are mindful of him the psalmist says And so the post -millennial hope begins not in some passage in the prophet

40:14

Isaiah about the future the future universality of Christendom Which I say at Isaiah 2

40:21

Isaiah, but virtually all of eyes all 66 chapters talks about that Right, but the best place to begin in eschatology of victory is in Genesis 1 1

40:31

That the promises are already ingrained in the creation paradigm That God creates men in day six and then and then he declares it to be very good

40:41

Which means that man's rule over? Creation is good. Not only that but it's it's a very good and Then Genesis 1 26 28, which is the

40:51

Dominion mandate? Has also been stamped in the historical narratives and then at the point where you would say

40:58

There is no way post -millennial ism can function in light of Genesis chapter 3

41:04

When you could say that and you can get away with murder if that were if all of Genesis weren't in red right there in the midst of curses of in the midst of Thorns and thistles

41:18

God puts in Genesis 3 15

41:24

Which recalled theologically the proto evangelion the first gospel Which is only a theological category

41:31

I mean truly the first gospel is when God creates the heavens and the earth when he when he sees emptiness and void and Darkness over the face of the deep and then he says let there be light.

41:41

That's the first gospel But theologically the first gospel is also given us in Genesis 3 15 the seed of the woman shall crush the head of the serpent you know that verse didn't need to be there and Then lo and behold

41:54

Genesis 3 15 is Played out historically, so what

42:00

God is doing in the redemption of history is he's saying I Want you to see post -millennial ism in every conceivable text of the

42:09

Bible. Hmm, and so Prime example of this and the book of Judges you see a random woman

42:16

Dropping a stone on the head of a king whose head is crushed and he dies

42:23

Well, what is that that is another playing out of Genesis 3 15 from the seed of the woman

42:29

Yeah shall come a Savior who will crush the head of the serpent. And so throughout history evil kings are serpent figures and Women are view are viewed as the ones who bring hope through their seed and that's how history is played out

42:46

History is played out in this motif Where right when you would expect history to collapse under the weight and the authority of the devil

42:55

God brings forth a Savior and another Savior and another Savior Until the new world is birthed

43:05

Literally and figuratively in the birth of Jesus in the

43:10

Gospels and then the new world is birthed to give us the clear and objective

43:17

Indication that no longer will the world live forth of incomplete and sinful saviors

43:25

But the world now will live out of the abundance of the sinless Messiah of history

43:33

Yeah, I love how you sketch that out brother and also love that you began in Genesis 1 20 or 1 1 really but 127 and 28

43:41

That's where I came to the post -millennial view. I had no idea that that was normal I read it and it says for to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and I Asked the question in that moment like fill the world with what?

43:57

Faithful people who worship Yahweh so God called that very good a world filled with worshipers and that hasn't happened yet and I would either have to say that the fall

44:10

Caused God to say well, I don't care about that vision anymore we're just we're gonna limp along until we end in defeat and then

44:18

Jesus is gonna come and rescue us out of here or The true and better Adam is going to accomplish what

44:23

Adam failed to do Right, that's exactly right. And so you're there's not much left beyond that biblically speaking now you could you know, you could dissect verses you could deal with the

44:37

The etymology of texts you could attempt to sort of fabricate a new reality

44:43

But it's hard to escape that the flow of history. Is that a new

44:50

Adam? Becomes the one who is in charge of a new garden.

44:56

Yeah, which is why incidentally? Well, I mean if you think about this just biblically Adam Lives in the garden the first Adam and that garden is a mountain

45:07

The Garden of Eden is a mountain and the reason we know that it's because the rivers flow downward The new gardener

45:15

Jesus Christ who is confused as a gardener interesting enough a happy a providential confusion is also not only killed in a garden

45:28

Buried in the garden, but also raised in the garden And because it's and that garden is also on a mountain right, and so that's the language of history here and it's hard to unsee that once those pictures and images are given

45:45

Adam is ruling over a mountain and He goes down down down to the valley.

45:50

That's Genesis 3 and Then an eternal and everlasting Mountain is built on Calvary and that mountain is also the root of the resurrection of history on the third day.

46:03

And where is Jesus now? Jesus has as has ascended according to Hebrews to the highest of mountains a

46:12

Mountain, which cannot be which cannot be in any way overwhelmed by another mountain

46:18

Because the highest mountain is at the right hand of the father He's ruling and reigning and so Jesus is the king of the mountains

46:26

And so when you see Jesus as the second Adam fulfilling that role

46:31

I don't know what other category to give to it a systematic category to give to it, but the postmillennial hope

46:39

Right Yeah, so good Yeah, just even thinking about him entering garden the

46:45

Garden of Gethsemane before his death and now he's being buried in a garden tomb He's mistaken as a gardener that brilliant imagery that God Providentially put in his

46:56

Bible so that we would connect it back and like you said the outworking is he's he's making a new worldwide

47:02

Garden filled with his people Now for the person brother who would say

47:07

I don't see that I see a world of vaccines and and Government overreach and World Economic Forum and a million babies in America or aborted every year

47:19

This is the worst time that we've ever been through on earth Like that's that's sort of the the mentality right is is that the world is getting worse

47:28

How would you respond to something like that that I don't see a garden. I don't see things getting better I don't see

47:35

Jesus's kingdom winning. Like what would you say? Yeah, that of course is a part of the inherent apocalypticism of American evangelicalism

47:46

Right, and I think in some ways I don't say this very flippantly, but in some ways Everybody has been a teenage dispensationalist right, we all we love the

47:56

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles at one time and But we've all been a teenage dispensationalist because we've all gone through that phase if you were born in this country

48:04

Unless you were part of the very few selected crowd who grew up in the kind of Warfield Ian or Reconstructionist churches and there are fewer and fewer of those alive today

48:15

Unless you're one of those you had to go through the the turmoil of fighting the many many charts of history

48:23

That you have probably been exposed to by your your your favorite local evangelist

48:28

Yeah, and my first book I ever read brother was left behind Yeah left behind which by the way,

48:36

I mean obviously it sold over 20 million copies But but the left behind Sears for many many people became the the official revelation commentary for many right

48:47

I've heard that anecdotally in the 1990s and Certainly more clearly in the 2000s when that was the thing that controlled the the imagination of evangelicals

48:59

But I also think that when people are given a steady diet of a robust theology that sees the

49:08

Bible Redemptively that sees the Bible for all its glory that sees the Bible as its own interpretive tool as own

49:16

Interpret as its own hermeneutical book. So in other words the Bible provides. It's the way of interpreting the

49:22

Bible When that happens that is there is a transformative effect that takes place

49:28

Now the pessimism is going to be ingrained in some ways culturally when you obviously when in the in the 24 -7 cycle

49:35

You can't change that but what pastors can do is Begin to think about history and when we begin to think about history.

49:44

We realize that the kinds of Concerns we have let's say with Kovat for example are in many ways a mere

49:55

Mockery or imitation or or false imitations of what has happened historically

50:00

You know the idea of having plagues is nothing new to the Reformation and I wrote an essay for the

50:06

Theopolis Institute about During Kovat about how Calvin dealt with the plagues that were taking place in Geneva Because they were in many ways a refuge for for immigrants and refugees coming all over Europe and these refugees were bringing

50:20

Sickness upon sickness and what did Calvin do Calvin? ministered very faithfully through what some would consider some of the greatest plagues of Europe and So a little a little bit of history goes a long way in changing perspectives, but I ultimately think that It's the normative paradigm of history of a biblical history that changes

50:44

People's minds the most that kind of layout that I gave and the key feature here

50:49

Kendall I think One of my last points here on this conversation Specifically on this question.

50:55

You're asking is that It is an easy thing for people to look at the Bible and say wow

51:00

Look how look at the the prophetic doom painted here in this portrait but when we bring in the the nature of history what we're going to see is that the writers were functioning in a very contextual environment

51:17

Hmm is that we have learned to look at the Bible and say Not only what does this mean for us?

51:24

But how can this historical moment apply to our historical moment when the first task of a biblical reader is to say

51:32

What was Jesus meaning when he was speaking to his disciples or condemning the religious leaders because obviously

51:39

He was not condemning all the religious leaders throughout all of history

51:46

He had a particular target in mind Or when Matthew 24 says you better hope that when the tribulation comes, it's not winter because you have to flee to the mountains

51:57

Well, I'm in Pensacola, Florida. I got lots of beaches around me No mountains around me here, right?

52:04

And so that text would be doomed to you It would be good make no sense at all. So obviously he's speaking to a very distinct first century audience

52:12

So there's a historical element which other of your guests can speak to as well But that's very important to read the

52:18

Bible Not just for all its worth as it was used to be spoken of in in the 90s and 2000s by some theologians

52:25

But read the Bible for all of us all of its where it's located Mm -hmm.

52:31

And so you want to see the Bible as a a particular geography that is meant to be communicated to other geographies and that's very significant so that we don't take the the the prophetic elements of destruction as if it were an ongoing

52:50

Paradigm to always be applied historically when we know that there are particularly events in the first century

52:58

That consumed Jesus attention in his ministry Yeah, so what you're saying?

53:04

I think is we need to understand first and foremost What the original author was saying to the original audience how they would have interpreted that and if we do that We will see that the kingdom that's sketched out from Genesis to Revelation is a kingdom

53:18

That is a slow and steady growth that will eventually Take over the entire world

53:26

Right that that begins again with a seed the problem the reason why a lot of people don't see this thing here is because they don't

53:32

They don't know how the Bible describes that seed and the seed is planted and Yes, false things come out of it the shaft the goats false things do emerge from it, but that seed as history grows produces vineyards those vineyards produce wine that wine produces happy nations those happy nations

54:02

Produce a Kingdom that shall have no end. And so what we need to see is history in its

54:10

Trajectory rather than history in its singular point And so I think everybody needs to in some ways they look at the

54:18

Bible. They need to adopt the the sanctification the sanctification theme of scriptures because pietism applies sanctification only to the person to the individual

54:31

But I think a biblical theology see sanctification also Historically why our creeds our creeds make this statement

54:41

Kendall. It would have been very easy for the creeds to not mention Pilate at all Crucified under Pontius Pilate that was the creedal way of saying that the

54:53

Bible is distinctly historical and so is the shape of scriptures, it's distinctly historical because it begins with the creation of history and It ends with the recreation of history.

55:10

Yeah one of the things that I Hear so many people struggle with with this is the implications of of our biblical understanding because it's one thing to say that the the kingdom is going to work itself out and and it is going to do these things but on the ground where we live things don't look so great and They kind of look like we're in a we're actually going downhill rapidly, so You know, how would you describe to the person who's like, but I don't see these things happening

55:46

How would you help them understand? Maybe their time perspective is a little off right, and that's a very it's a good pastoral question to to contemplate because people sometimes will

55:59

Interpret history through the lens of their personal history, right? Mm -hmm. So for if I'm going if mom and dad are divorcing it's hard to see history

56:09

Blossoming to a happy ending if something, you know drastic happened if a death of a loved one takes place but what we need to see is that God is always doing something greater amidst our pain.

56:23

So if there are post -millennialists out there Who are not developing an eschatology where suffering is not a part of it pastorally

56:35

That's a problem. That's why my old mentor and teacher James Jordan wrote an article many years ago called yuppie post -millennialism

56:43

Right, they're going to be these post -millennial thunder puppies cage stagers Who all they want to see are sort of the happy moments

56:51

But we need to absorb a theology of suffering a theology of martyrdom Within our eschatological framework to say that to conclude that it's through martyrdom

57:04

It's through missionaries given their lives in Iran that one day Iran will be open to Christian influence.

57:10

Yeah, it's through Pastors being in prison in China that one day China will be open through You know to to Chris to christen them and So that's the kind of thing that needs to be brought to the attention of those who are espousing this post -millennial.

57:27

Hope It's that we need to really understand it in its holistic structure and that suffering must be a part of it

57:34

So any eschatology any post -millennial eschatology that removes?

57:40

The sufferings of Jesus and that only focuses on the vindication of Jesus is going to be incomplete

57:47

And therefore not an appropriate way of manifesting the eschatology of the

57:53

Bible It's so helpful and that that just that thought alone and working that out gives us a tremendous amount of Realism with with the way things are and it also gives us hope

58:04

I remember thinking about it like this a little bit different but a mountain

58:09

I used to live in Colorado when I was in the army and there's mountains all around and Pikes Peak was right there and from 10 -15 miles away when

58:21

I was in the Springs looking up it looks from the bottom to the top It just goes straight up all the time and only ever goes up But as you're driving up the mountain be careful if you ever do this, there's no guardrails in a lot of it

58:35

But as you're driving up, there's a lot of places where it goes up but there's also a lot of places where it goes down as you're going up and And I remember thinking to myself how that's kind of like how world history is

58:48

America right now is sort of going down in in its Culture and in its politics and in a lot of ways

58:58

But it's in root to something that God is doing underneath that that is going to produce, you know this

59:05

End -time event that we are all seeing in Scripture, right? Yeah, that that's correct And I think that I wrote an article today that doesn't have specific anything to do about the but in my sub stack

59:14

I published an article on on the political situation and one of the things that I wanted to communicate

59:24

Very distinctively is that as we look at the the political situation?

59:30

What we're seeing are churches rising and emerging victorious through the political scene and some of these churches have really grown in maturity and throughout the process of history there will be churches who will be seduced by the false political powers as it happened in the

59:53

World War two and there will be churches who will Wake up As a result what happened at a lesser scale, of course what happened during coven for example so what's happening historically is a a

01:00:06

Discerning of the spirits taking place and that means that for the church to triumph through this season of history they're going to have to Excommunicate a lot of false teachers from their world and from their realm and was going to be birthed from that are a host of you know millions of churches who want

01:00:29

Faithful preaching faithful community life faithful cultures fable faithful covenant living and so What many people are seeing in the decline of the church in America?

01:00:40

I view it actually as a way of purging False fathers and false teachers from our midst.

01:00:47

It's the the anthem the church is one foundation Amidst her amidst dangers and heresies

01:00:55

God is forming a bride that is pure stronger and a bride more willing to Confront tyranny and more willing to give itself up for her

01:01:08

Lord. Yeah, that's so good Where I know we could talk forever brother and in both of us.

01:01:15

I know have things that we've got to do Unfortunately, so I want to close with a question

01:01:22

We could probably even do a part two if you're up for it because there's so much to cover but as a pastor and And you've ministered to hundreds maybe even thousands of people over the course of your ministry

01:01:36

How would you encourage the average Christian who says? Okay. I'm starting to see this

01:01:42

I'm starting to see that Christ is getting the victory and it doesn't quite look triumphalistic like I would write the story but it you know it in the ebbs and flows of that Looks sort of like a

01:01:52

Bitcoin chart. It goes on but it's a little chaotic but How do

01:01:57

I how then shall I live in in light of all of these things? How does this change me as a dad as a husband as a father as a as a worker in my job?

01:02:08

Like how do I put this? How do I put meet the rubber hit the road sort of thing? Okay.

01:02:13

Well, let me say this carefully but very boldly also and that means the first thing that a man or woman needs to consider

01:02:20

They're leading their home or they're single is Is to look at their local churches and to see what is the fruit that they're producing?

01:02:30

If they look around and they're seeing wonderful fruits wonderful families being produced

01:02:37

Steady dose of longevity and faithfulness and then what they need to do is they need to pour their affection to that local body

01:02:44

And submission to their faithful local pastor pour their affection to it as I've said before at many times in writing and And publicly as well the decision to go to church only happens once in a lifetime

01:02:57

It doesn't happen Saturday night nor Sunday morning, right? So unless you're providentially hindered you make a decision with your bride the day you get married we will always be in church because that is the the

01:03:09

City of God and So your first thing to do is you got to get your house in order? If your local congregation again,

01:03:16

I've written about how to leave a church But also there's also a case for why to stay in the church

01:03:21

But if a local congregation is producing the kind of fruit that you don't want in your children if the children's peers are the kinds of peers that you don't want to see your children being influenced by and You're saying to yourself boy

01:03:37

I Need to stay here because I just think this is a good place for me Well, that's an act of cowardice

01:03:44

Yeah, and so if you're not if you're not able to say to your family No, we need to leave here immediately

01:03:51

It may be because there are woke tendencies and maybe because there's some kind of the social justice

01:03:57

Bug is going around. Everybody's getting infected Maybe because the the the new

01:04:02

Bible study is you know a Bible study written by just the latest the hipster

01:04:09

These things need to be considered there needs to be a an analysis of where you are getting the source of your theological information

01:04:16

Because every church is a theological community which means that there's going to be a need for church changes in the lives of many people and For many people they need to wake up to the reality.

01:04:31

They're experiencing now Now many people need to buckle up and say this church is faithful. I need to be more involved but many fathers specifically are gonna have to get a very dose of realism and realize that they're probably

01:04:44

By maintaining their little friendship status and their business status or country club status in the church

01:04:50

They're probably making their children twice as sons of Belial And that's a real danger.

01:04:56

And so as they're beginning to see this need to reform history and to reform

01:05:03

Society what they need to do first and foremost is get their house in order and by getting their house in order the first thing a faithful man does is by Acknowledging whether the society that shapes their house order is in a good place

01:05:20

Because if the order of the church is constantly contradicting the order of the home

01:05:27

There's a failure to communicate There's a failure of economies because one ought to influence the other and if you see this disharmony or this cacophony of voices taking place this

01:05:45

This this chaotic world be manifested where you're where you're in one level having to undo the other

01:05:53

Something needs to change so my fundamental application here, especially for new parents coming in or getting access to Canon plus or Or getting access to your podcast

01:06:05

That what they need to see is that what we're trying to advocate is

01:06:11

Something needs to change And we are always called to conform ourselves to the image of Jesus.

01:06:17

We're not called to remain status quo In fact, we need to be constantly challenging the status quo

01:06:23

So we need an analysis of our environment and we need to say is this the place?

01:06:29

Where we see ourselves as an individual family flourishing for 25 50 75 years when we're passed and gone

01:06:38

Or is this the place? that has had its

01:06:44

Fruitful ministry to us, but then now God is calling us to something else to another congregation

01:06:51

To another body to another denomination and there are many faithful denominations out there.

01:06:57

Obviously. We're only a tiny Fraction of the larger body, but I think people need to begin asking these questions otherwise, they may be beginning to come to these kinds of post -millennial convictions, but functionally, they're gonna be operating within a very pessimistic worldview and And then their eschatology is going to be fulfilled in their own way of living

01:07:24

Yeah, if I could summarize Just out of everything you just said two things that that every man woman

01:07:35

Who are listening to this need to need to think carefully about is is be involved in the local church.

01:07:41

That's number one If we go back to the garden theme be a gardener there help produce fruit there

01:07:48

And then second if the home is is not aligned

01:07:53

With what is going on at the church say you're at a faithful church well, then things like family worship discipleship catechetical training for the children all those things can

01:08:05

Can help train the children in the sort of Monday through Saturday even as we're active in the church those two things

01:08:13

And I think that's what I heard you say those two things Are the greatest work a Christian can do and probably the most effective work a

01:08:20

Christian can do Over the course of their entire life it would that would that be fair to say that that's what you're saying.

01:08:26

Yeah, absolutely That's a good good summary good synopsis of the whole thing. And if somebody's listening to our conversation right now

01:08:33

They're saying a man. I made so many mistakes. I made so many mistakes and part of I think what we do in the local church is to is to bring people together have made a bunch of mistakes and to encourage them

01:08:49

That from the book of Hebrews that today is a day of salvation and that just doesn't mean salvation personally that's involved of course

01:08:56

But that today is a day to begin Incremental changes in your life. So if you have 40 years of mistakes well today is a day of a new beginning and that can happen and I think once you instill that hope in Those who are under your care or or for friends who are in the congregation when you paint that image

01:09:20

Everyone no matter what condition they have come from Can begin to find a new life in Christ and a new life in living before the throne of grace

01:09:33

That's so good brother tell us one tell us what we can be praying for you for as as Pastor as a man as a husband as a father as a residing minister of council of the

01:09:45

CREC What are some ways we could be praying for you? Well, the main way I think

01:09:50

I've asked folks to pray for me is in in consistency of of Life in my local body and in my home as well and then consistency in in strength

01:10:03

These are the two things that as I've as I got no there now in my 40s I come to think through more often is that so much of the things that I do bodily in Preparing myself as a man my habits they influence the things

01:10:18

I do spiritually and sometimes those are Those are hard to be disconnected My spiritual life very much is connected to my my bodily posture and the way

01:10:27

I look at look at the world and so what that means is the way I've asked folks to pray for me is pray that I'd have a singularity of mind and body as I look to all the tasks ahead of me and I think that God has very much graced me with his kindness and mercy, but I think the the prayer moving forward is

01:10:50

To that God would continue to make his promises known and that I would not forget That his his mercies are new each morning because I think that's a temptation of most men is to say

01:11:01

Yeah, they were new yesterday. But today haven't they faded yet? Hasn't your reservoir of mercy emptied

01:11:09

God and so in many ways what we're doing is just Reinforcing the things we know to be true and believing that they are true yesterday today and forever

01:11:22

Amen brother, thank you so much for coming on the show and talking about all of these things with us

01:11:27

Thank you for helping us have a better vision and clarity and Lord bless you and your ministry

01:11:34

By the time you're finished with being the presiding minister. I hope there's 10 ,000 churches in the CREC Brother Lord bless you and all things and thank you so much for being here with us

01:11:42

Yeah, the Lord bless you and I love watching your labor from afar. So keep up the good work Kendall Praise the

01:11:48

Lord. Amen, brother. Thank you so much for watching another episode of the broadcast next week

01:11:53

We're gonna be tackling the mega topic. It's the topic of all topics. It's what is biblical post -millennialism