News Roundup: Abortion, Profanity Homeschool History, Crusades, Liberty, Cru, Nazarenes

Introduction and Upcoming Conference Announcement

We are live on the conversations that matter podcast. We're gonna try this again today. This is the second attempt. My computer is not behaving and if it freezes again, then I probably will abandon the effort and We'll see about doing a podcast perhaps tomorrow.

I've ran some tests on the computer and everything seems to be fine. Which doesn't make sense because it kept freezing and then I'd have to restart it and I was having difficulty even getting back into Windows.

So we'll see I'm not, you know computer nerd necessarily. I know a little bit about computers. So this is throwing me for a little bit of a loop. I think everything's updated. Hardware seems to be fine.

So I don't know. I don't know what's going on. But anyway, we're gonna persevere and We have a lot to talk about today. The reason that I haven't been doing as many podcasts lately There's there's a few but one of the main ones is I've been on everyone else's podcast.

That's really what's happened. And I think I need to do that to promote the 1607 documentary. There's gonna be audiences that they're not listening to me and they might listen to another host. And so I think one of the biggest ones I was on this week I went on a few but I guess last week was the Tom Woods show and you can check out Friday's actually I think it is the last episode perhaps if you go to the feed for Tom Woods.

And I did a podcast yesterday with Will Spencer. That was about two and a half hours long. A long podcast and we talked about 1607 but we also talked about the origins of this particular podcast and my internet presence and he asked me a lot of questions that Had me talking about things.

I have not talked about on The conversations that matter show so I will link that when I get a chance. In fact, what I'll do is for the patrons. I will send you an update and I'll just link to all the different Podcasts if I can remember all of them that I've been on over the last two weeks.

That haven't been this one, but it's time today for the conversations that matter podcast, that's the podcast that I Obviously run and it's the one that where I get to share my unfiltered views on I guess whatever.

But mostly today it's gonna be on Christian related stuff because some controversies going on on social media but also some I'm gonna reveal some things about some Christian organizations that I think you ought to be aware of and none of them will be shocking for people who listen to this podcast regularly, but I think it's good to keep the pressure on and Let Institutions that are Christians know hey We are still paying attention if you're gonna go social justice if you're gonna go woke if you're gonna keep pumping in these things.

We're gonna mention it. We're gonna talk about it. And I think parents who send their kids to educational institutions that do that kind of thing thinking that these institutions are solid ought to know those things and if anything this my experience has been a remedy because Some institutions will bend to outside pressure institutions that will not bend to inside pressure.

Often and so it's in that spirit that I do some of this and we will I will reveal during the course of the podcast. More and more we have people Filtering in it looks like I am on Facebook this time, which is good.

It wasn't working before so we're on Facebook we're on YouTube we're on X and I will upload to rumble later. It doesn't look like that one's working right now, but I think that's on me I don't think I insert When rumbles different than the other ones you have to do a whole bunch of stuff and I didn't do it.

So anyway. Well, let's start. Let's see with what topic are we gonna start today? Let's Let me just announce this and then we will start the Fundamentals conference is coming up. This is a men's conference.

It's really just a weekend so it's not that long but it's in a beautiful beautiful part of the country in the Adirondack Mountains and When people hear about New York, they don't think of the Adirondack Mountains and they come and they realize how beautiful it is but we have an excellent facility excellent food excellent fellowship excellent speakers this year and Check it out.

You go to fundamentals conference comm there's different price options if you want single occupancy meaning you're gonna room yourself Alone and you want the privacy? It's three hundred and ten dollars.

Actually, you really can't beat that for what you're getting. You're getting really good food and we have a culinary graduate who is overseeing all the food and If you want triple quad occupancy, in other words, you're gonna be bunking with other people $220 if you go to the website, there should be you have the schedules there and there should be a carpool set up.

I think the link is somewhere and now I'm looking for it and I'm not seeing it. Oh, there it is. Sign up for carpool. So you can also sign up for a carpool if you're coming from a certain area and there's other people Coming from that area.

So I wanted to mention that looking forward to that. That's going to be happening now in less than a month. Wow, wow does time fly? When that starts, so All right Forge and anvil says I thought New York was only pizza and rats.

What are what are these mountains that you speak of? We got to come got to come to the fundamentals conference. You'll find out There's some of the most beautiful Mountains. In fact, if you look at a map of New York, just just do this go to Your search engine type in map of New York and you're gonna see in the sort of the center right of the state.

There's going to be a large section. It's like a big oval and that's the Adirondack National or not national. Sorry State Park. It's huge. It is it's incredibly big like in fact It might be the biggest State Park in the country and it's bigger than a lot of national parks.

It's just huge. So Yankees lie about mountains. Thanks, Sean. Appreciate that Neil you got to come and see and I you know some if you judge me by what people say about me on Twitter I'm not a Yankee, right?

So I wouldn't steer you wrong on this I think Sean's been watching too much of Shane or something. Well, let's start with Some of the institution institutions that still have and it's not unexpected but some woke problems, okay, and Don't expect I just will say this at the first first part of this people will reach out to me and ask me John where's a College or a seminary that's not woke that I can send myself or my children or some friend or whoever and I will say The way that you're approaching it already is off because You're about ninety nine point nine percent Guaranteed you're going to encounter some social justice stuff.

It is in the water. It is going to be at the most conservative places it shouldn't be but this has been percolating for a long time and There aren't many institutions that have really taken extreme measures or even extremes not even the word just common-sense measures aggressive measures to drive this stuff out and So you're gonna have a mix of stuff and that's what I tell everyone.

So especially at large institutions where there's a lot of people employed and Even if they have rules against teaching certain things we don't do CRT here, right? I mean how many states pass those laws and the public schools in those states are still teaching CRT, right?

They're just using different names. There's it's the same concepts. So if you have a large Christian University large Christian institution denomination may say we're not doing any of that. You can't really trust that obviously it's happening somewhere because it's in the water.

This is what a lot of people believe even the people who don't think they believe it usually believe aspects of it. And if it's not being all you know, if you have a big university and you're not in every classroom.

Then there's gonna be teachers who are pushing it anyway. So I just want to preface it with that. You just have to prepare your students your children for encountering these ideas. That's why I wrote the books.

I wrote that's why I wrote especially Christianity and social justice so you'll have Resources when you go into these fights so let's talk about a few institutions though just to let everyone know that what I just said is true and we're gonna start with Liberty University, which is a place that is dear to my heart and I'm just gonna point this out.

So if you go to Their class that's called For is it? Yeah for no not for 47 I thought I had it. Oh for 49. I think it's this 149. Yeah, it's called church ministries capstone let me just read for you the description of this course a capstone course designed to equip the student in developing a master plan for ministry and Will focus on reviewing the acquired knowledge value and skills of the church ministry curriculum.

This course seeks to integrate the concept techniques and knowledge of all areas of church ministry. This course is designed to be taken The final semester for graduating seniors attention is given to the students spiritual personal ministry life now sounds like a great course right sounds solid and Like you, you know, you wouldn't think that going into that you're gonna it's not gender studies.

We'll put it that way, right? So Someone sent this to me who shall be anonymous, but this is these are Assignments from that particular class. So I'm gonna read for you these assignments and then we'll talk about it.

I do feel the need to just say as I'm doing this because it kind of kills me a little. I love Liberty University and You know, some people might think you're shooting yourself in the foot from ever working there ever.

Yes, that could be that very well could be but I mean my experience especially at Liberty they do respond when People say things online about them. I don't know what it is. Well, I do know what it is, but I I don't know why that works it seems to sometimes Be a mechanism that is more effective than even internal.

When concerns are raised internally, you know, so. So yeah parents and students who are there. My understanding is these questions have been there at least from 2021 to 2023 and Possibly they're still there at the school if you enroll in this class.

So here are the questions, okay? Scenario one as a church as church leadership. You all have been praying for a minority elder for the past eight months as you find yourself between two elders. You are forced to make a decision as you only have enough budgeted funds to hire one more role.

The white elder candidate is an excellent communicator with a master's degree. He has no egregious moral failures and gels amazingly with your team. The minority elder candidate is not as great of a communicator, but is this racist.

Is this does that qualify for what people call racist? I don't know. He's not as rated communicator. Apparently the minority but he's a ton of potential. The minority elder is too loud and yells when he preaches.

He seems to be a little too loud for your church body. The minority elder has no egregious moral failures. The tension the Team. I don't know why they even inserted the moral failures part there. Neither of them have moral failures.

The tension the team feels. Is that strictly on paper? They would hire the white guy in a heartbeat. However, the reality that the other guy is black makes the team feel guilty that he should be hired.

Anyway, is this black hire just tokenism? Should we just wait for the right black guy if we hire the white guy? Are we sinful work with your group to decide what you would do as a local church? Now, here's we'll talk about it.

Here's a second scenario. As a youth pastor who is predominantly Caucasian students as. Let's see here. Yeah, I guess maybe I'm correcting the grammar of the question. You have been invited to participate in an urban summer camp with mostly african-american and latino students.

Oh a youth pastor not as a youth pastor, okay, so there's a youth. This is a scenario. There's a youth pastor going to a camp. The parents feel that this summer camp is not the best option for their children to attend.

Because of the racial tensions present within the country they request a meeting with the youth pastor. To voice their concerns about their children attending an all-urban camp as a youth pastor. How would you calm the concerns of parents and ensure them that this camp would be.

Would be a great experience for their children to attend and I think there's one more I guess I'll just read this real quick to you. This is another scenario. Scenario a new couple starts to visit your church.

They are married with nine adopted children. They have been together for 13 years and have had at least four of their children for over five years. Every church they have visited has quirk quickly pushed them out.

Why. Because this couple is Mike and James two men. The couple has been visiting your church for six weeks when a few deacons decided it's time to confront The pastor and find out if he is going to hand how he's gonna handle the situation.

They are not happy That their children are in Sunday school with the kids from the family. They do not want their kids to get the wrong message. So question one. How would you advise the pastor to respond to these deacons the following week one of the men?

In the couple Mike decides during the invitation that he wants to surrender his life to Jesus and responds He is broken that people have been praying for them and everyone is excited for him the next day.

He sends the pastor an email and wants him to meet about his decision and what this means for his life. He brings his husband James to meet his alleged husband. Let's just correct that To the meeting and they began to ask the following questions and the questions are what does the Bible say about homosexuality?

Does giving my life to Jesus mean that we have to break up? What about our kids will this rip our kids away from their parents? And if so, what message will this send to the kids about the church? If not, what message is being sent about your views on sin to the church?

Do you ask them to stop having sex if you do then? How do you respond when James says that makes no sense? We are married. Question two. How would you advise the pastor to answer these questions and other questions that surround the situation?

All right, so This may seem pretty mild. I think from those who live through 2020 it probably is but given some of the extreme things we saw but In principle, especially that last question. There's nothing wrong with bringing up Dynamics that are around us in a ministry setting and saying we have to address these challenges.

The concern though that I have with something like this. Especially the racial ones which I'll go back to so you can see what I'm looking at here. Is that In either question the way that it's framed seems to be Inserting assumptions into the minds of those making the decision here the students who are supposed to be giving advice or figuring out how to navigate this that that the dynamics are such that you You ought to be on eggshells.

You ought to be Somehow considering how this looks how this looks externally. What does this say about your church if you hire the the black guy, right? Which I think the focus is in the exact wrong place.

You know like and I would say that extends even to this other scenario with gender and sexuality the whole focus the way it's framed is How does this look? What's the message that's being sent about your views on sin to the church?

What's the message? This will send to our kids about the church. You know, what's the message? I mean, I don't know The fact that in that scenario it seems like this goes on for a while and It's not addressed that that alone seems to be there's a problem already with the church.

Like what why is it that the pastor has taken it? That should take one Sunday, I would think. And you can do it in a friendly way, but you let them know that this is not Something that the church condones.

It does not mean that you are Hostile to those who come into the church whether they be homosexual whether they be boyfriend-girlfriend living in an adulterous situation but there should be I think whether it's from the pulpit or whether it's in personal interaction if there's gonna be involvement to the point that They're dropping their kids off in Sunday school in the nursery.

There needs to be a conversation pretty early on. So this is like the the can seems to be kicked down the road at this point and they're asking, you know What is this gonna say? Well, how is your response going to?

Look to people and and then the same thing with this racial tension scenario, except I think this one's worse because you're Inserting the idea into people's minds that they should be considering these dynamics in their hiring that they should be looking at well, you know like because the guy's black apparently even if he is not as qualified that should count for something and And And obviously you can this is open-ended so you could answer the question by saying no this isn't biblical like we're gonna just go with the standard scripture has for Hiring leaders and elder and deacon qualifications and that kind of thing.

You can just do that. Of course I will just say this though. I have it on very good authority. Very good authority. I'm not going to out anyone here, but that At least in one scenario that kind of answer was not accepted, okay, so that's I'll say that's all I'll say for now, but There is an agenda that's still Operating in our Christian institutions.

I'm not even blaming you Liberty University for this as far like the people in administration may not even know what's going on in some Of these classes. Okay, so I I don't I don't know. But this kind of thing is going to happen and this is the real point you send your kids to a solid University a Christian University University that's trying to take measures to guard against these kinds of things you're probably gonna get stuff like this that even if it's not as overt as Perhaps in 2020 it seemed to be it still will insert ideas into your children's mind ideas that may not have been there before Without I would say the necessary guardrails and the thinking through it the guidance that they need to actually navigate this because really what they should be told in my Opinion here is in a church ministry scenario.

We have guidance from Scripture. This is what it says about qualifications people who come to you and try to Give you other qualifications and say that no it needs to be. The race should factor into this because of Systemic racism or something like that, you know, we're just not going to follow that because that is a foreign Requirement that the scripture doesn't know about I would say to I would just add at the end I suppose of this particular scenario that Suitability does mean something.

So when you look in the Qualifications and Titus and Timothy for elders and deacons You do see some things that require prudence and wisdom to navigate right? What's hospitable in New York, for example is not the same as what's hospitable in Mississippi.

I know this very well. You don't just drop in Necessarily on people in New York that's considered a rude thing. But in Mississippi, it can still be considered rude if you don't do it, right? So there are these cultural things that I think we we apply biblical principles in within.

So I'm not saying you don't take any cultural factors into consideration. But clearly what's going on in this assignment is an assumption that there have been historic wrongs Against black people in this country and that should somehow now affect the way that you Approach hiring someone and it should also affect the way that you approach parents who aren't comfortable about their kids going to a camp Where apparently there's a lot of black and Latino kids Usually those in a scenario like that.

That's that's not even the full picture. There's probably Concern is somewhere along the lines of I think even it might even has said that it was urban. Let me just check. It was an urban camp, right?

See they mean, you know, yeah urban it says urban so yeah, I mean if it's 2020 and your church wants to go to an urban camp with your eight-year-old and they're gonna bring your eight-year-old and it's kids from that local area and there's been a lot of Riots and a lot of I mean that it's the setting.

Also, it's not or it could it really only solely be the setting and it may have nothing to do with the quote-unquote racial Makeup of the or the you know, the genetics that the other kids at this camp out.

But you're taking them to a place that might be considered dangerous. And so the way it's framed though in this scenario is Which I think is a more realistic scenario what I just described but the way it's framed is that Parents feel that this summer camp is not the best option because of racial tension and And then they request a meeting.

And so how would you calm the concerns of the parents? Maybe the parents have a legitimate concern like right like you're not. That's not even something that you entertain in this scenario. Like clearly the parents are wrong.

That is the assumption from the beginning. So there you go. I think that It would be good if maybe This ends up getting into the hands of admins at Liberty University you might want to just check out your church ministries capstone class ch mn 489 and see if this kind of thing is still being Taught there and if so, then maybe that it might be good to think about correcting that so I do this in love and I do this with the assumption that this kind of thing is Will hopefully be dealt with At some point so I still encourage by the way, and I've said this before I still encourage people check out Liberty University.

There's a it's a city basically. So if you're looking for a place to send your your Students who want to go to college then I'm not Endorsing giving like a full endorsement, but I will say the history department I think I can pretty much fully endorse, but I'm not like giving a full endorsement for everything there.

But it is a place to check out and depending on the school like, you know The School of Music from what I understand, it's just excellent. You know my few know this if you know this, but if you listen to the podcast a while You know that I did at one time Do some work for Liberty and I have my my master's in history from Liberty.

Liberty is a place I love dearly and I used to go to a lot of concerts there and things that the music department put on and so Nothing at all against Liberty University, this could be any university.

This could be any Christian College I'm telling you just about it's almost across the board. That way. All right. Well, let's talk about another Christian organization. Shall we let's talk about crew now.

Crew is an organization. I've spent a lot of time on obviously and They have a new president David Robbins July. So last month he became president and he was in charge of family life, which is one of Cruz ministries.

And so I got an email. This is kind of a funny story, I guess but I got an email from someone Who immediately said this is a positive development or it was very positive about it. David Robbins is probably gonna be better.

He'll do the right thing. He'll help crew because Cruz had some real problems with LGBTQ Normalization with social justice stuff. Well, here's the thing. The very next day literally with less than 24 hours later.

I'm pretty sure I got an email from someone. And it totally disconnected not even about David Robbins, but they just and by the way, your emails are helpful for this reason. They wanted to let me know about family life and the email they got from family life.

So this is the organization David Robbins oversaw. This document that I'm about to show you had to have been created or at least the start of it I think the whole thing probably under David Robbins. Okay, this was this was released as he was ascending to the presidency of crew.

So and it took work to in time to put together so this would have been under David Robbins. I'm sure that this document was put forward and they sent it to me and they said look I got this email from crew and The email if you scroll down has this a link.

It says racial trauma how to comfort a friend. Now this is just a general email that sent out racial trauma can cause powerful physical and emotional responses. Find ways to receive your friend's story with empathy and openness.

Grab and download this so the crew is putting this out, right? This is the crew. That's not woke anymore. They always say they never were but they're you know, they've gotten rid of this stuff. Oh, they don't have lenses anymore okay, so here's the The document let me just download this we'll open the file.

Okay. Here's the document so how to comfort a friend racial trauma. Racial trauma, it's the holistic response people of color experience. So white people I'm sorry. You do not have access to claiming the term racial trauma for yourself.

It's prevented from being applied to you. It is a response that people of color all caps, by the way experience due to persistent acts of discrimination bias and even hate. Racial trauma and its aftermath are destructive forces to families and generations around the world.

Now I don't even have to read anymore. You already know it's woke. You already know it's woke. How do you know it's woke. Because it's only something people of color experience. Oh Man. Receive your friend's story with empathy and openness rather than providing a one-stop shop for healing.

Kim let's see here. Can be important step towards restoration. Galatians reminds us bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ as you seek. To comfort your friend. Hold space for the sorrow and justice spring.

So it's developing the posture of listening and accepting when they went when someone who in it I guess not a white person but a person of color comes to you and they have a story you just got to accept it you got a Not not just This even it goes beyond listening, right?

This is an empathy and an openness. You got to put yourselves in their shoes. That's empathy and then you have to just be totally open. It could be I guess the most wild story, but you got to be open.

The first service one owes to others in a community involves listening to them. Let's see I'm gonna skip down here cuz you don't have tired to go time to go through this whole thing. It's a Dietrich Bonhoeffer quote.

All right. Establish trust then extend the invitation if you feel comfortable. I'd like to understand what happened to you. Would you feel like telling me your story pause before you respond? Praying to invite the Holy Spirit to love your friend so it gives you a Flow sheet here validate their experience.

There it is validate their experience. That sounds horrible. I hate that that happened to you. Express your gratitude that your friend trusted you with the story of vulnerability. So you have to validate their experience?

Well, what if their experience isn't true? What if they're falsely accusing other people of bigotry that they don't actually harbor you just got to validate it in according to this. Ask them these other questions.

You know, would you feel comfortable telling me more? How did it make you feel all that kind of stuff? Affirm your friends. God give God given worth. So your culture heritage and race were treated like they were a weakness or something to be looked down on but to me they give You so much strength.

I know more about God's character because I know as a person who bears his image. I Don't I could apply I guess the sub scenarios. I mean look everyone's got a background. Everyone's got a culture and things that define them and you know I think things that are part of the created order are good.

You shouldn't. You shouldn't castigate those things. But look if someone's coming from a community, let's say we're a family you could you could have a family as the example here and it's just really broken and messed up right and You probably have to be careful about saying that kind of thing.

You know, maybe their family isn't great maybe the community that came from isn't the greatest for them and Maybe they this is something that they have to overcome and you're gonna help them overcome it.

That could also be something you say to someone look you've you've got some damaging things from the culture. You came up with in wherever that was and it sounds like your family had issues and the society that existed around you was Encouraging sin and you were involved in it and look I'm gonna help you.

I'm here cuz I'm gonna help you. I got sin in my own heart, but we want to bring you to a more stable place. We want to help you and that's very different than what they're saying here. Encourage them to take the space.

They need to heal and grieve. It's just the whole thing is just very therapeutic. If it becomes hard to listen to your friend realize this is a normal feeling. Assess your own emotions and ask yourself why you might be reacting this way.

If it feels hard to believe something so different from your own experience realize your reality may be very different from your friends. Consider that could have been phrased better consider how you could continue learning about experiences like theirs.

Wow, this is so manipulative first. Corinthians 12 Talks about the gifts in the body of Christ, right? It says particularly as Christians none of us can say I don't need you when one of us suffers we all suffer so.

Yeah, like if someone has a spiritual gift, you can't say that that you don't need their spiritual gift. Which is what that's talking about. It's not talking about like I don't need you because of your ethnic or cultural background.

So the way they apply versus here is bizarre to me. Okay, what not to say how not to respond it says Invalidation and minimizing of impact this happens to everyone. So if you tell someone this happens to everyone.

Then you don't say that now, by the way, I will say I've off. I have had to hear in my life things like that when I have gone through really hard things I have needed someone to say, you know what? This is life.

This happens life. What's the line from the Princess Bride. Bride life is pain, right? Maybe it's not quite that bad, but We are called by Jesus to bear our cross every day there's gonna be pain in life and sometimes you do need to hear that but they're saying not to say that a Disbelief that it's racist.

What does Paul even say do not be surprised when the fiery affliction comes to you. I mean, come on. All right disbelief that it's racism asking a lot of questions. Okay, I'm sure they were stressed and you just happen to be there.

So, okay, so don't try to Give sometimes this you need this to though. Someone's reading someone else wrong. They treated you rudely. It had nothing to do with bigotry. Maybe they were having a bad day and some sometimes I'm not saying for every scenario this is gonna range.

But they're just ruling these things out. Highlighting of innocent intentions like I think there was that was their intention in trying to get in their heads of the the culprit. Rush to problem-solving, you know, some of this stuff is not necessarily unwise like if I just preached on last Sunday, we're supposed to Admonish and really encourage the faint-hearted help the weak be patient with all so there are times when if it's someone who's truly a faint-hearted.

And they're not ready for. Maybe some admonishment. Let's say they're. Well, let's say you can't validate you don't know it's just someone just sharing a story there's no way to validate or invalidate anything.

Yeah, probably not good to just start questioning it necessarily. But if you know more sometimes you do need to do that. Defending the status quo personal defensiveness. Okay, don't do any of those things.

Be sensitive with your desire to apologize to apologize. There's a therapist. Wow, okay, it was therapeutic there's a therapist and author Shadeen Francis that states in how to talk with your black friends about race an Apology without action is empty.

So to apologize for racism that is not here. We go. Here we go. You're I don't know what to say. So you I guess you're gonna apologize for racism that you've. Have you part you're a white person I guess that makes you guilty.

Apologize for racism that is not new and that you benefit from that you benefit from there you go. It's racism because you're benefiting from it. It doesn't actually serve the goal of being supportive and it also it feels like the others.

Person's responsibility to to somehow make that right by saying it's fine. Okay, so I guess You have to okay, so this is what they're saying if you're gonna apologize you got to have action behind it.

You can't just apologize. Because then they're obligated to forgive you and that would be terrible. Oh my goodness. Can you believe this is this is right now. This is crew, this is crew right now formerly campus crusade for Christ, this isn't crew from 2019.

This isn't crew from 2020. This is crew 2024 right put out by family life the organization that the current president of crew David Robbins Oversaw and this document would have been created when David Robbins was still in charge of that organization.

So Make of that what you will but Crew is not out of the woods at all. All right. Let's talk about one more organization making actually a positive stride. Let me give you some good news. You want some good news today?

I think we should have some good news. So we're talking about the Church of the Nazarene and The Church of the Nazarene. So this is I'll start here. I talked about this before on the podcast. This is not ancient history.

This is from Actually one day less than a year ago. So this is from 364 days, I think ago the Nazarene Gnat is the I guess account on Facebook and the Nazarene Gnat revealed that pastor Jay Ord and Alexa Ord have a book that they they published previously, but they have a second edition that was coming out at the time and The title of the book is why the Church of the Nazarene should have a conversation about being LGBTQ plus affirming.

Okay, I don't need to say anything more. I don't need to show you anything more. I did that on a previous podcast. But just so you know who Thomas Jay Ord is this is the kind of thing that he's promoting now.

Good news from a very very leftist source, which is Baptist News Global. I mean Mark Wingfield is way out like you can't even see him. He's so far left in my opinion you read his stuff. It's just a but this is the news organization that covered the matter expelled from his own denomination ord still holds out hope for change, so he was expelled a Nazarene pastor and professor who was labeled a heretic and expelled from membership in his nomination told Baptist News Global that he still has hope for the church of His childhood to break free of impulses toward legalism.