Swimming the Tiber, Hosea 11:1 in the LXX, Frank Turek on Molinism

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Greetings and welcome to the Dividing Line on a Wednesday last program of the week only because I'm heading for Conway, Arkansas Well, that's

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I think that's my final destination. Anyways We've got a conference this weekend first travel.

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I've done. Oh goodness at least ministerially since January, I believe and I'll be perfectly honest with you.

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I'm not looking forward to the travel part at all the the Walking through the zombie crowds and and things like that.

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But there you go. That's we're gonna be doing looking forward to seeing folks there and having a good time around the

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Word of God and Be back Lord willing on Sunday evening if I'm not

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Put on a plane to Botswana or something like that in the process, but I Need to get to some things before then.

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I want to start off with Subject that we have dealt with literally for decades

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It was the late 1980s when Well, actually

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I'd probably mid 1980s when I was challenged by a friend now deceased

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You can tell when you've been at something for a while and you have to start talking about you know, how many People used to work with that aren't around anymore

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Challenged by a friend to look more closely at the claims of the

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Roman Catholic Church. We were dealing with Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses and He was a former

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Roman Catholic and he said, you know, a lot of things you're saying about The gospel as taught by these other groups has parallels in what is taught within Roman Catholicism well,

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I was raised as a Independent fundamentalist Baptist or at least GRB Baptist depending on which church we were in and My background certainly was not one that put me into a great deal of contact with Lutherans Presbyterians Episcopalians Anglicans Certainly not

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Charismatics Pentecostals and certainly not Roman Catholicism.

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I mean I've been simply told that Roman Catholicism was a false religious belief that the

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Pope It really wasn't the Pope was the Antichrist That was that that didn't really fit into a real good pre -millennial view of things actually but but that the it was a religion that Replaced a vital faith with works and and of course

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I I did know a number of adult Roman Catholics they Swore a lot.

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They smoked a lot. They drank a lot They just didn't seem to take their faith very seriously that was what most

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Roman Catholics I knew were like But they they got forgiven by going to see the priest and and that was about the extent of it and so it was actually the advent of what is the precursor to the internet that Began to expose me to Roman Catholics and to therefore do what

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I've been doing with these other groups and I had not been taught to do this But it was just sort of a natural thing if you're gonna start addressing a particular group you need to get their

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Original documentation get their books read their materials. It was something called the

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BBS system Phytonet Those of you who are old enough to remember those days

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The precursor to the internet. This is even before Al Gore invented the internet and You could have lengthy long discussions with people and The nice there was actually one nice thing about it

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You remember the the BBS is sitting there and and indeed I do and we had blue wave

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Yeah, and I remember we got our first 65 megabyte hard drive It was actually actually 650 megabyte.

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I remember that we we had the Phone line installed in my house actually no two phone lines, wasn't it?

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Well, we were doing we started doing that stuff down on Camelback.

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Yeah, true Yeah, and I'm thinking I'm thinking that there was a system before Phytonet Not that I was okay.

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All right. No, no because the open Bible echo Mormon echo stuff like that that was that was down on Camelback and That was in the starting in the mid mid to late 80s in that area.

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Okay, and that's where I first started doing some reading and Interacting with people and like I said one of the advantages one of the nice things about that mechanism

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Was you would write a lengthy post and because the nature of how this worked

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It would pack up all the messages that had been put into that node and it would send it off overnight to another node and You might not get responses for 24 or 48 hours from other people and so That actually wasn't a bad thing

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You might think but it actually gave you time to think to write and it sort of lowered the

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Emotional level of things. I'm not sure that the instant back and forth that we have today

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Has I'm pretty sure in fact, I'm absolutely certain that it has substantially lowered the level of conversation

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But anyway so If you've read certain books Fatal Flaw, Anxious Catholic Claims, The Roman Catholic Controversy Or you know

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Letters to a Mormon Elder, Isamora and My Brother a lot of that stuff started Really 35 years ago and more in Yeah, yeah that was all that was all going on back then so What happened of course is that?

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surprisingly led to my first two books Were on Roman Catholicism. It was supposed to be one book

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It got too big, it got split in two parts And so it became two books. Fatal Flaw, Anxious Catholic Claims. Everybody figured my first book could be on Mormonism That was my third book

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Letters to a Mormon Elder But the first two books were on the subject of Roman Catholicism very quickly that led to the first debate with Jerry Matitix of Catholic Answers in Long Beach in August of 1990

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So, oh, yeah. Hey, here we go August. It's August of There you go.

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Yeah. Yep. There you go We we even said we need to remind ourselves and I was gonna look up what the actual date was

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Because it's got to be someplace there's got to be somewhere in our old archives of the dividing line

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Newsletters, where are they? They're there in your office someplace Yeah.

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Yeah, see if you can't find Those old dividing lines and somewhere in there

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I bet you there is some reference to what the specific date was But I I would bet it's within the next week.

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I think the next week in the next week will mark the 30th anniversary 30 years

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From my first moderated public debate with Jerry Matitix who was at that time Much to the current

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Catholic Answers chagrin was at that time the the leading face of apologetics for Catholic Answers Jerry Matitix and it was at a church a

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Roman Catholic Church in Long Beach, California That might actually be somewhere on the blog too.

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I wonder if he searched for Long Beach somewhere In all the vast material there's not gonna be a tag, but if it was really searched that would be that would be nice anyway

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So 30 years ago this month. We had our first debate with Jerry Matitix that was followed up with two debates in December of 1990 in in Arizona one in North Phoenix at Northwest Community Church and the next night at City the

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Lord Roman Catholic Church in Tempe, Arizona both with again with Jerry Matitix one was on Perseverance of Saints the other was on the papacy and the second was was moderated by Scott Hahn and Ended up with Scott Hahn walking out of that particular debate in a huff after it was over anyway and that's

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That's what started stuff that's what started eventually the the great debates on Long Island with Chris Arnzen and All the various people that we engaged there and in debates in numerous other places

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Including a couple overseas, but that's not been a that's not been a real big topic overseas

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Peter Williams, and I have debated In London and in Belfast but I'm trying to think

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I can't really think of other Roman Catholic debates outside the United States I think they've all been been in the

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United States. So I We've we've engaged that subject the only the only religious group we've engaged more often

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Has been Islam I counted up once and it was

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It was Islam now is the most most content is

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Roman Catholicism. That is Mormonism and On down from there as far as the number of debates were concerned

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So I have in that process I have dealt with many former Protestants Both on the professional level

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Jerry Matitix was a former Protestant Robertson Jennis Many of the people that we did we debated in long in the great debate series

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Were former Roman Catholics, I'm sorry former Protestants some of them former reformed individuals but then that office obviously led to Written interactions with meetings with Communication with all sorts of people who were not apologists, but likewise made the journey to Rome and of course there is a massive number of people

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Rome has has hemorrhaged people for good and bad reasons the clergy scandal continues to I mean

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Ireland is filled with former Roman Catholics But most of them were

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Roman Catholics nominally to begin with they were they were cultural Roman Catholics they weren't Roman Catholics of commitment and Large portion of those who've left

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Reformed churches No sit -ins to say just Protestant churches, but reformed churches and become

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Roman Catholic That's a different that's different it's hard to be it is possible to be nominally reformed but Truly reformed churches really do their best to make sure that that is not a possibility

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Just by the way, the preaching is done and and so on and so forth So there have been a few

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Truly knowledgeable reformed people that I have sat down and talked with I've talked about a couple of these conversations in the past and when

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I speak with such individuals and I Truly press them on the issue of the gospel that is when

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I Really come to recognize That these were individuals who had never truly

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Even though they had preached it They had never truly seen their utter dependence

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Upon the work of Christ in their behalf not just to make something possible Reformed people don't believe in possibility salvation.

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They believe in accomplished salvation it's one of the major differences between monergists and synergists and so But the point is

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I've Dealt with a lot of folks and it's interesting a Lot of the people that I've known that have gone into Roman Catholicism.

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I remember a Young fellow that was in our chat channel for a while many of them are very attracted by the the intellectual aspects and They want to become like Thomas Aquinas or something like that Many of those folks

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When they were on their journey Said nothing about to me. I Found out only later on after it was all all said and done

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Which you would think if they actually wanted to have some answers at some point in time

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They might have thought that Yeah, I've done more debates with Roman Catholics almost anybody else has

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Written books on the subject. Maybe you might have some insight into this one That's that's the rare the rare situation anyways what brings all of this up is a

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Something that Cameron Bertuzzi put on Facebook yesterday,

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I think it was yesterday Yeah, I said 29 minutes and so this was at 7 -7 sometime yesterday under his

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The name that he uses capturing Christianity on YouTube his

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YouTube page. It says I'm exposing you to the intellectual side of Christian belief

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Okay And what he what he posted was I'm closer to accepting

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Catholicism than I've ever been I'm still quite far away to be sure but I'm closer than I once was

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Some of you remember that I don't remember what it was Might have been last year might have been earlier this year.

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I Went through a Discussion that he had that Cameron had with Matt Fradd, I think his guy's name a nice Aussie Catholic apologist and Basically what

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I said was Cameron you don't know why you aren't a Catholic it's obvious You don't know why you're a non -catholic

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You're a non -catholic of taste not of conviction You don't know what the Reformation was about. You don't seem to know anything about the history of the

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Roman Catholic Church you don't know anything about the history of your own church if you even claim a particular church as far as fidelity to its doctrinal statements and That puts you in a really difficult position to be able to fight it provide any kind meaningful response to a

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Roman Catholic apologist Throwing out standard Roman Catholic arguments that would require you to have a knowledge of why it is that we actually stand against What Rome has said about these subjects historically?

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well Those videos have continued coming out and we noted I went through over the past couple of weeks

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Some claims about Mary and and issues regarding the Saints and things like that from another video

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So I wasn't stunned To read I'm closer to accepting

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Catholicism than I've ever been when you hear somebody saying that They are in the cleanup stage

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Because you see if you really understand Rome's claims

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If you if you for example, listen to Roman Catholic apologists listen to Roman Catholic radio

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They are constantly talking about coming to the church Not coming to a local assembly

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But their conversion Stories are about coming to Rome to the church our conversion stories are coming to Christ.

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There's coming to church You can't Continuously expose yourself to those claims

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Without recognizing that there is a It's an either or it's it's not a both and you can't

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You can't stay out there in the middle of of the Tiber River Which is where he is.

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He's pretty much over on that's on the far side shore You know his toes are touching the rocks on the other side he's just still neck -deep and in the

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Really ugly water the Tiber. It's just never been there. It's just a little maybe maybe that day.

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It was just really bad I don't know. But when I visited Rome, it was not something I want to go swimming

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And I didn't I didn't know if anybody else was either. I'm not sure if that means anything. Anyhow and so I One of the things that I have emphasized and I think

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Not gonna be making many friends today but the reality is the vast majority of Non -catholics today are

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Catholics of taste and not are non Catholics of taste not of conviction it's

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It's what I've been raised with. I'm comfortable with a Calvary Chapel style worship service and I'm not in the smells and bells and I'm not into candles and You know,

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I like a nice worship band type thing that wasn't an option in the 16th and 17th centuries and Hence when you go back and actually read what men wrote back then and the lives they lived

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You recognize that they saw that the issues at hand were issues of life and death And of course

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For quite some time after the Reformation they were issues of life and death on both sides on both sides

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I Last time I was in London Last couple times that I was in London.

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I hope I get to go to London again someday, but I don't know I Ran over to the three

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Marian martyrs monument and also it's also within same spot where Wallace was was killed

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But all over you'll find these monuments to martyrs and they were martyrs to the

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Roman Catholic Protestant divide and Rome has a tremendous amount of blood on its hands and it claims to be infallible.

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So you got to deal with that Protestants responded the same way because of sacralism the state church

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We've gone into depth talking about this in the past and what that led to and Issues and Reformation and things like along those lines, but the point is that many many many people in Those days wrote about the differences not the way we do in social media today

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But because they felt that these were matters of life and death There are matters of the gospel

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Was at issue today. We have an entire Cadre of young William Lane Craig wannabes who have embraced the mere

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Christianity model the Christianity can be boiled down to sort of the

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Trinity the death -barreled resurrection of Jesus and some kind of generic

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Supernaturalism and so you you minimize the target and you get your historical minimal facts arguments together and you you get your

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Kalam cosmological argument all tuned up and ready to go and Off you go to war

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We have criticized this movement many many times and we've been very consistent over the decades of saying

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That's not enough because that's not apostolic That's not what the

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Apostles did that wasn't the apostolic message The apostolic message was never a bare theism it was never a classical theism

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Not only was it a Trinitarian theism it was a theism that involved God and time so much so that Paul after only a short number of sentences in speaking to the

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Athenian philosophers Informed them that God would judge them by a man

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Whom he had appointed a man whom he had raised from the dead Which ended his sermon very quickly?

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Point was that the gospel and what Christ did not just the irony of the mere

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Christianity movement is that You can absolutely insist that Christ Had to have died from had to have been crucified and risen from the dead

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But you can't tell anybody what that actually means It means he was a special person unlike anybody else, but you can't tell anybody that that death, burial and resurrection actually accomplishes anything because that gets into the gospel and there's just too many differences of opinion and So we're just not going to go there so There are a lot of What I'm saying is

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I am very concerned about the spiritual health of a lot of what it calls itself a

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Christian apologetics in the United States today and This is true not only

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For those who just want to sort of do the Atheist theist thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again

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But for those involved in ministry to Muslims, for example there are many who are excellent at going after the

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Quran or going after Muhammad and Talking about the

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Hadith and and everything else but when it comes to the gospel when it comes to The message of life that must be delivered to the

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Muslim people that which will actually set them free all of a sudden

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Not so clear not so compelling at all And if there's anything that I would hope that my

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Muslim friends would say They would say one thing about that James white guy is he's always getting to the gospel and We we know

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What what are you saying I think really of I'll never forget standing in the mosque in Erasmus, South Africa with the

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Muslims sitting in the ground right in front of me Talking about my unworthiness to be the recipient of God's grace and and How my heart strays and how they know

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The same thing is true of them and therefore how can any one of us truly have peace with with with a truly holy

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God? That's not the normal presentation unfortunately of many

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Apologists to Islam there are some I'm certainly not saying I'm the only one but there is a general malaise

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Soteriologically amongst those who deal with the

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Muslim people and So apologists as a whole I think need to be you know,

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I've said forever There is no office of apologist If you're if you're interested in apologetics great fine wonderful You better be involved in the church and I don't mean just showing up once in a mile

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I mean ministry in the church if if you aren't involved in that level of teaching within the local body apologetics isn't for you

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You will eventually Get in trouble

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Get into I've seen it so many times Man, I remember one guy

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He knew more about Jehovah's Witnesses than Anybody I'd ever met

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He really did and Then one day I get a phone call He had become a

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Jehovah's Witness and he was never a churchman that that ministry to Jehovah's Witnesses was all he was and That's dangerous.

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Very very dangerous It just shouldn't shouldn't be so I tweeted about the fact

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I was gonna talk about this statement and In my experience someone in car in Cameron's position

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Might think they're still quite far away But I've read most of the convert books, you know the surprise by truth series is and It's a

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Common element of those conversion stories that someone thought they were far away and then it was just one issue and they went oh

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Then I saw that this was the case and everything just felt like dominoes after that What his words tell me is he does not has either never understood or has

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Decided he was wrong and having understood this at some point in the past that Rome's gospel is a gospel that falls under the anathema of Paul in Galatians 1 this is the issue.

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I I really wish it were not the case There are

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Roman Catholics that I have tremendous respect for and we fight many of the same battles

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I really wish That this wasn't the case but here's the fact when

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Paul wrote to the churches in Galatia he did not bring a laundry list of Theological errors concerning the teachers in Galatia he didn't say they're wrong about who

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God was and Jesus was and the Bible was and and everything else he Said there was one thing

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There was there was one thing they were forcing Gentiles to be circumcised to enter into the

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Old Covenant before they could enter in the New Covenant Just it's just one thing faith in Jesus was still important.

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Don't get me wrong They were saying you had to believe in Jesus say they were saying that Jesus rose from the dead.

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He was the Messiah there's no indication of any lack of Orthodoxy on their part in those other areas

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They were just doing one thing You need to enter into the Old Covenant and then from the

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Old Covenant you can enter into the New Covenant by faith But you've got to do something else Just one thing and Paul said anathema a curse by God Now when you look at Rome's gospel

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When you look at Her teaching on the mass as a perpetuatory sacrifice when you

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Understand that you can approach the cross of Christ in Roman Catholicism 30 ,000 times in your life and not be perfected and In fact still go to hell not according to the current

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Pope. I'm sure but according to Historic Roman Catholic teaching

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You could be a regular mass attending Roman Catholic commit a mortal sin before your death and be lost no purgatory, you have to be in a state of grace go to purgatory and so when you look at what the mass doesn't

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Accomplish and hence what the death of Christ doesn't accomplish when you look at the entire sacramental system When you look at baptism and you look at justification when you look at the the concept of confession to a priest and altar

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Christus another Christ You put all these together and the distance between the message of grace that is found in the

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New Testament gospel and what Rome teaches is Massive.

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I wish it were not that way. I hope and pray That there are many within the external bounds of the

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Roman Catholic Communion that do not believe those things that actually have a belief a trust in Jesus and Don't let these other things get in the way.

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I I hope that's the case. But the reality is That the teachings the official dogmatic teachings of the church

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Fall under the anathema of the Apostle Paul and hence the anathema of Scripture itself

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So a number of people some of the responses that I saw amazing postmodern responses, how dare

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I Say something like this to Cameron. I mean, how dare you question his journey?

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It's like Wow has postmodernism just these people would not read

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Three sentences of Erasmus and and Luther going at it before they'd faint and run for a safe space.

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I mean, wow That's like really okay.

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All right This isn't an issue about Someone's journey this is about what the gospel is and that's more important than any individual person is or Their feelings or their emotions me or him.

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We just got to grow up in this culture and got to grow up in the church There's just a tremendous amount of childishness in Response to my just saying hey

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Here's an obvious example it has been demonstrated in the videos that Cameron doesn't know what he believes

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He's far more comfortable talking about the Kalam Cosmological argument in its various permutations than he is about the imputed righteousness of Christ That's a fact and if he can't see it,

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I can't help him He just needs to be honest. That's that's a reality. I'll bet you anything

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Cameron you've read Seven times more pages minimally on Kalam than you have on justification.

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Haven't you haven't you? It's true if I were to ask you for the classical

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Protestant works Dealing with a refutation of the claims of Rome would you have any idea without googling it?

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Don't worry. Nobody else would either sadly Most people have never heard of Whitaker If they're

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Lutheran they've never heard of Chemnitz They've probably never read Salmon's infallibility of the church

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That's the reality. But the fact is you demonstrated that in your conversations.

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You don't know your history Whatever church you're involved with right now It just doesn't seem you have any idea where it came from what its particular distinctives are why that's important specifically in regards to Rome Does your church have a meaningful statement of faith?

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I mean We use the London maps confession of faith of 1689 I can guarantee you something you cannot read that statement of faith without encountering refutation after refutation of the specific claims of Rome Because that's where we came from That's what was going on in 1689

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And if you don't understand what Rome claims about those things You're never really gonna understand the specifics of what the confession of faith says but other people

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And this is why I wanted to address this other people were asking the question What's the attraction?

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Why would people be attracted to this now? Some of these people are former Roman Catholics themselves, and I've noticed that former

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Roman Catholics Really struggle with this convert syndrome because they're like I've been through all of the all the stuff

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I've been through all the pageantry and and and the The whole nine yards and it was empty and it never satisfied and I never heard the gospel there

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And so they really struggle with why there is an attraction at all and I get that nominal

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Roman Catholicism Nominal Eastern Orthodoxy Not attractive at all.

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I Mean you're gonna go for it. You gotta go go for the whole thing be real but having said that If you don't understand what the attraction is, you're probably you're gonna be in danger

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Yourself of falling for it because you need to understand it can be very attractive to certain kinds of people looking for certain things if a person wants a

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Deep spiritual experience that is attached to imagery maybe music

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Sensory Experiences of candles and smells a

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Large cathedral room that makes you feel small and Makes you it makes the transcendent feel like it is touching you especially the concept of the ancient church standing in the mists of time

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Unchanging stable. Oh, man, especially in these days Where everything changes overnight?

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Everything changes overnight anymore. There's nothing stable and so many people want to have that which is going to be abiding and true and it's it's ancient and it's it's not the the simplistic type of evangelicalism where you

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You go in and you get all Emotionally revved up by some happy clappy praise choruses and you you get a 20 -minute

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Sermonette about how how much God loves you and how crazy he is about you and then you just Go about your week.

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A lot of people get tired of that if that's all you get I get that or Maybe the big megachurch

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Entertainment stuff, you know, it looks more like a rock show than it does a worship service.

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There's nothing transcendent about it It change and it changes every little bit like everything else does

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Or maybe I've seen people go to Rome who are a part of Churches that were not into the happy clappy stuff

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But they are also deader than the proverbial doornail there wasn't a call for holiness or depth of spiritual experience or a

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Challenge of anybody they hadn't done church discipline on anybody since the Civil War And so there's lots of reasons why people will find dissatisfaction where they are and some of those reasons are valid reasons

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And so we need to recognize there can be real attraction to the claim that this is the church that Christ founded and You split off from us.

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We stand in the very mists of time To be very attractive

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So much so that I've met many a convert who even when I showed them that that claim is

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Simply false on its face and can be disproven in so many different ways on a purely historical ground just just the very documents of history itself the the the utilization of Forgeries by Roman Catholicism to establish the papacy and the fact that there was no papacy in Rome at first There is a plurality of elders there didn't develop till around didn't have a monarchical episcopate there until about 140 and the development of all of the sacramental systems and the fact that you didn't have priests at first and that developed out of the

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Presbytery and and all of the threads that had to come together to form purgatory and just all the developments and really even the the non -christian sources that gave rise to the

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Marian dogmas and the Protevangelium of James and and all that kind of stuff once a person is bitten with the bug of H the ancient church

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It's amazing what they can do even when faced with all the facts and say, yeah, it's not the ancient church

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Or even when you provide a meaningful Explanation for how the ancient church exists to this day

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This spirit indwelt people of God who are concerned about continuing to believe and proclaim the

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Apostolic message of the Lordship of Christ Which is found for us and provided for us in that which is the honest us

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God breathed the scriptures Even when you provide them with that and show them how

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Christ has been building his church and he's continuing to build his church And he's never stopped building his church

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And once that person grabs hold of this I can have this ancient church it

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They'll they'll do what they need to do To continue to hold to that concept.

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That's just been my experience Now my experience also is there seems to be a honeymoon stage

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Where Rome can do no wrong All the things that former Roman Catholics are going man, have you seen this that this is why this happened

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That's I left because of that during the honeymoon stage The the new spouse is always perfect in all ways

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But the honeymoon stage eventually fades fades. I hate to tell those of you are just about to get married, but it does and So I have seen people

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Who made that made the leap they made the switch they they swam the Tiber and Then years later

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They write and they say Well, you're right

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Eventually the pomp the circumstance the the incense the

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The genuflecting There Actually had to be an actual foundation to it.

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It needed to be consistent with Scripture and And I saw how inconsistent

43:58

The priesthood of Rome was not only in its life and behavior, but certainly in its handling of Scripture and and I Started realizing that I had traded one

44:12

What I thought was set of confusions for another set of confusions that there's Roman Catholics who believe everything the view that the range of expression of Roman Catholicism is just as wise as it is in Protestantism Just go to just go to Boston College sit in a few classes

44:29

Listen to those priests up there and what they're saying some of them are barely even theists Rome won't do anything about him.

44:36

Rome won't get rid of him. There's a huge amount of Variation and Jumping on to the jumping into the papers following the papacy, especially these days

44:55

Doesn't it doesn't accomplish anything does not accomplish anything

45:02

In fact right now especially it it it would seem that right now with Francis How do you make that argument right now,

45:13

I don't even wow you it's it's tough it it's challenge but Don't underestimate do not underestimate that attraction

45:26

Do not underestimate that attraction. So as we've said many times before if you're paddling around the middle of the

45:32

Tiber River What you need to do is need to get that boat over to the western shore

45:38

Drag it up on the on the side Break it up build a pulpit and Start calling the people not only who are out in the

45:49

Tiber but on the far bank in Rome out To a gospel that actually gives them peace

45:57

To a gospel of a powerful Savior who doesn't need the the merits of Mary and the

46:04

Saints doesn't need all that extraneous stuff that Clearly distracts from the worship of the one true

46:14

God. It's not an aid. It's not a lower form of veneration

46:19

It is a distraction. It's idolatry build yourself a pulpit out of the wood from that boat you're paddling around in and Start preaching the gospel with clarity a gospel.

46:34

It actually brings peace. Therefore having been justified by faith We have peace with God through our

46:40

Lord Jesus Christ not a ceasefire Peace with God peace with God So some thoughts about Converts It happens every year

46:54

You you see it all the time But there you go real quickly last night

47:03

I was let me see if I can find a Yeah, this is that's a that's a good

47:10

Screenshot. I'm not gonna play it but here is a Screenshot good old

47:18

Steven Anderson's back. I think it's a new channel because YouTube wiped him out.

47:23

They just Took everything. I think the whole church page and everything out

47:29

And so he's got something else going on now. And by the way, let me just mention I Don't think that YouTube should have taken him out because They're just moving up from the bottom.

47:43

They're gonna get to everybody eventually That's all there is to it. Let us in an adult society you let people have free speech and then you let adults hash it out and Ignore what is worthless refute what needs to be refuted?

48:03

You don't censorship is the last refuge of a decaying and dying society and We have it happening all the time.

48:12

But what you've got here This was posted in one of the groups that I'm in and people are going well, how do you respond to this?

48:23

and I'm I'm a little concerned that even amongst reform folks There is the well somebody used an original language and so therefore they

48:38

Must have some weight behind or something like that It's only about six minutes long or something like that But this is

48:50

Anderson's demonstration that there is a textual variant in the Greek Septuagint At Hosea 11 one that everybody already knew there was one when

49:01

I say everyone I mean everyone who would be interested as to whether there are textual variants in the

49:06

Greek Septuagint, which of course there are There are lots of them and In fact,

49:12

I've found it really interesting to preach from the

49:18

Septuagint Because when I preach from the Greek Septuagint Especially if you're preaching from a text, you know when

49:26

I taught the Isaiah 6 passage I used those two beautiful Jeffrey Rice rebinds of The Greek Septuagint to preach from Genesis and Isaiah a few weeks ago the church and when you look at it

49:46

There's almost there's there's almost no passage that you could possibly run into are you not going to find some variation?

49:55

between the Greek Septuagint and The Hebrew text that we have today

50:02

Which is in general the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia is the Masoretic text With one s

50:09

I spelled with two s's and something recently and my my computer thinks they're both misspelled

50:16

My computer doesn't know but anyway Masoretic text the Hebrew text and then the

50:23

Greek Septuagint you'll you'll there's lots of variations and so what he does is he goes through and he goes through the

50:36

Hebrew and Said and points out that so This is you know,

50:45

Mitzrayim is is Egypt prefixed min the new has been a

50:53

Assimilated here you can see that with the form of the second

50:59

Mem there and so out of Egypt and let me

51:05

Move an arm here. Yeah, there it is Qara to call I have called my son my son

51:14

So This is the messianic prophecy found in I Was a 11 -1 and then when it's quoted in the

51:27

New Testament notice it says a kala satan huyan mu called my son but in The septuagint that he is citing he has met a kala sata techna outu so in the

51:51

And he didn't identify at least not that I heard maybe didn't I missed it But he didn't identify what septuagint he was utilizing whether He has any critical additions of the

52:07

Greek Septuagint whether he has the the guttentgen Septuagint which is sort of the most extensive

52:14

Version of the subject available today As far as textual critical material and things like that because I I don't know but There is no question that ta techna outu is different than tan huyan mu

52:30

This is out of Egypt. Have I called his children? His children

52:37

Which would which would be the him? Would would be loved him.

52:42

That's Israel. So I've called the children of Israel out of Egypt is

52:49

What is is the idea of this form of the Greek Septuagint? But tan huyan mu is what's in the

52:56

New Testament, so his whole idea is the septuagint is corrupt and The septuagint that Matthew was quoting

53:06

Was different than the septuagint we have today. Well This of course begs the issue of what is the septuagint we have today.

53:14

It is very very plain that the septuagint was not translated by 70 scholars

53:20

At one time they all went in their caves and came back out with the exact same translation and therefore this was

53:26

God's demonstration though Lots of Christians believe that was the case a lot of Christians in the early centuries from the second to the fifth centuries

53:40

Maybe even beyond that did believe that story and did place

53:49

Inspired wait, maybe we term I could use in the Greek Septuagint and Hence, I've mentioned before the riot that broke out in Carthage When Jerome's Vulgate was written was read publicly and it changed some of the wording

54:05

I had to change some of the wording between that and the Greek Septuagint and people just found that horrific.

54:12

I Use that as an illustration of how a text can become a standardized text So that septuagint became a standardized text then it was replaced by the

54:21

Vulgate when the Vulgate first comes out there's resistance But 1100 years later Erasmus is dealing is being attacked for daring to question the readings of the

54:32

Vulgate which was once the new kid on the block so what

54:39

Anderson demonstrates here is That there is a variant in the Greek Septuagint which surprises absolutely positively no one

54:48

Who understands anything about Septuagint studies? But what he didn't

54:55

Recognize is if he had gone into the the Goettingen Greek Septuagint, I Will let me take this down here unfortunately

55:07

This is a Is is really super small and if I blow it up It gets really difficult, but I have the apparatus open here and down here at the bottom you will see a little alpha with a prime and sort of like a

55:34

Acute accent next to it, but you see the line after it's tan huyan mu tan huyan mu

55:42

So this is Aquila. This is Aquila's reading of the Greek Septuagint Aquila's reading the

55:48

Greek Septuagint is the same as the New Testament renders it Simicus is reading is huyas mu and Theodosian is huyan mu which is just the article different than what you have over here, so two versions of the

56:07

Septuagint have the accusative singular huyan with the genitive mu

56:16

Possessive mu and one has huyas, which is a nominative mu and then

56:24

Others you have are tatekna 'atu which is what we have in the printed edition, which is evidently what

56:30

Anderson was referring to What this shows us Remember Anderson's the

56:37

King James onlyest strange King James onlyest anymore Very very unique in all ways, but he's still influenced by I mean he will identify

56:53

Ruckmanites as crazy people and So they identify him as crazy people and the infighting

57:00

It's funny because when he came here to this office. What year was that?

57:10

2016 -17 Somewhere around there, maybe

57:17

Maybe it might have been like 2015 Hmm Well, anyway when he came here to interview me for that movie he did

57:26

It was funny how quickly quick he was to get into The kind of bickering that independent fundamentalist

57:36

Baptists are known for he was talking about His arguments with Sam Gipp to me

57:48

And then some of the eschatological stuff that they were getting into and and he and other people and stuff and this is this is

57:57

What IFB folks are really all about they'd like to fight with each other, but he's different.

58:04

He's Really hard to nail down most of your King James only folks are not

58:12

Reading Greek in Hebrew. I mean he showed a good basic level knowledge there

58:17

Just reading, you know Like anyone in first year Greek or Hebrew would be able to read the letters and pronounce them properly and so on and so forth

58:25

Recognize what's going on with it, and he proves that there's a textual variant, but he didn't go into is there is no single septuagint the septuagint itself has multiple streams of transmission just as the

58:39

Masoretic text scribes had to make textual critical decisions in the 9th century to come up with their extremely stable text and There were multiple

58:49

Hebrew streams in the days of Jesus as well Which is why we have variants in Such places as Hebrews chapter 8 where clearly

59:04

There were Hebrew texts that said that had but all Others that had got all and you have

59:12

Greek translations of both of those So the interplay of the various traditions

59:20

And these are textual traditions not traditions as in the core bound rule or something like that.

59:25

There's There's a textual use of that term

59:32

Go back to the time of Christ himself and that and that's what's that that's a problem

59:38

For King James only people sometimes TR only people is to is to deal with the reality that the

59:44

New Testament writers Recognize these things and dealt with these things themselves

59:52

So I wanted to that was put out there last night and I want to go. Yeah. Well that doesn't actually prove anything because here's evidence that you had multiple streams and that there was a stream of Greek That is behind at least two of the major early

01:00:12

Versions that include the Greek Septuagint that had my son

01:00:17

Whether with the article or without the article that was that was there now. Oh Goodness well, we've only gone an hour, right?

01:00:30

Oh, really? Oh Okay, right, that's what

01:00:36

I thought I was like go ahead blame blame the computer, okay fine

01:00:45

Yeah, I know so I did say we would get to this so we'll finish up with this this is a

01:00:52

Man, these kids look younger and younger every day. This is a very young man asking.

01:00:59

Dr. Frank Turk a A Question about Molin ism. We dealt with Molin ism yesterday

01:01:05

No, I am NOT going to repeat the 20 -minute description of Molin ism that I provided yesterday

01:01:12

But it is important I think to recognize how these theories end up functioning if you want to see how this really plays out

01:01:28

I Man three years ago at least

01:01:36

Put together and we posted on YouTube the section from dr.

01:01:45

Turek's debate with David Silverman and the corresponding section from my debate with David Silverman answering the same question from David Silverman, that is a really excellent example of How apologetic methodology differs and the end result thereof

01:02:11

So I would direct you to that But here this young man asks a question and the response he gets is is interesting

01:02:22

So let's um, let's listen to this. He uses their wicked actions for his good for his glory.

01:02:28

That's That went too far. Here we go. Well a moment ago And in a debate, excuse me in a debate with I believe his name is

01:02:37

David Silverman. Yes a couple years back And a moment ago in your answer to a gentleman just a few questions before me you advocated of you known as Molin ism

01:02:46

Yeah My question is how do you get that from the Bible because God even says he uses?

01:02:54

10 remember which group it is as an axe in his hand as a attempt to uses their wicked actions for his good

01:03:00

For his glory How do you get the view of Molin ism out of that him using wicked actions and him using people's evil choices for himself?

01:03:10

okay, so what the Text that the young man is referring to is a text that I preached on recently at Apology of Church where I did

01:03:21

Genesis 50 Isaiah 10 and Acts chapter 4 and it's the

01:03:28

Isaiah 10 where God wields the axe and He brings the Assyrians against Israel, but that's not what they intend and and so on So were the

01:03:36

Molin ism, of course what they intend is all important Remember yesterday

01:03:43

Autonomous creatures free autonomous creatures free autonomous creature over and over and over and over and over again how does

01:03:48

God deal with these things in light of the fact that this is what he has to deal with and So those texts don't talk about free autonomous creatures they talk about a free autonomous

01:03:56

God Using creatures to his own honor and glory. That's that's what Genesis 50s

01:04:02

He's gonna bring up Genesis 50 Isaiah 10 and Acts chapter 4 are are really all about and so the the young man

01:04:10

Is saying how do you get Molin ism out of the Bible? When the Bible is specifically stating that God Doesn't it's not just God Actuating possible worlds he's actually

01:04:29

Sovereignly in charge of evil actions that these individuals engage in Not just micromanaging the circumstances around so that's just their will that's involved

01:04:42

He he actually clearly has a decree is really what's being asked Well, I'd have to look at the context of the passage you're talking about I don't know what you're referring to but God can get his will done even through the evil acts of people that certainly is true in fact, you can look at say

01:05:00

Genesis chapter 50 where Joseph of the Old Testament is sold into slavery earlier in the book by his brothers and then somehow he rises to prominence in Egypt and His family flees

01:05:14

Israel to try and escape a famine they come to Egypt looking for food Joseph has all this food stored up and he's in a position of power

01:05:22

He could have looked down at him and said you guys sold me into slavery. Now, you're gonna pay I'm gonna take vengeance

01:05:27

He doesn't say that what he says is what you meant for evil God meant for good the saving of many lives that is happening

01:05:33

Right now so God can turn evil Into good now catch that God can turn evil into good.

01:05:41

That's not what Genesis 50 20 says you he quoted it correctly But tradition can be such a strong filter that you don't hear what you're saying

01:05:53

He quoted correctly you Intended it for evil God Intended it for good not you originated the act and then

01:06:03

God redeemed it There was intentionality on the part of both and Obviously one of the two can see the future and one cannot and it's

01:06:15

God so God's Intention was for good to save many lives as it is to this day

01:06:24

Specifically Their lives and the lives their families and the lives of what we would call

01:06:31

Israel as a whole But many other lives too, including Egyptian lives That was

01:06:39

Intentional on God's part. This is not a situation He has put it into the context where the brothers

01:06:47

Act first and then God responds their action. Remember when you actually read the story

01:06:56

That the brothers wanted to kill Joseph God keeps that from happening

01:07:04

Now do you think it was just happenstance That there happened to be a caravan going to Egypt coming by at that very point

01:07:14

Where he keeps them from killing Joseph That just just happened.

01:07:20

No God has a decree that he is accomplishing Molanism does not deny to God the ability to micromanage events

01:07:32

But what it does is limit the freedom of God's decree based upon the content of middle knowledge and Where that content comes from no one knows

01:07:43

It doesn't come from the free choice of God. There is the real issue. Yes, sir I just found his characterization that Joseph gets to Egypt and Somehow finds his way up in the government authority

01:07:56

Where the whole point of Genesis is God was doing all of this I don't know how that happened.

01:08:03

It just did, you know there isn't a Some people are averse to the working out of God's sovereign decree in time, but it's there

01:08:15

Yes, my question is how do you get that out of a Molanistic system where you have God?

01:08:21

Looking through the options and saying, you know This is the one where the most people come to me or the ratio will be right.

01:08:27

How do you get? Well Molanism basically means that God knows all counterfactuals it comes from a a

01:08:34

For those you don't know a theologian by the name of Molina who said he's trying to resolve the the free will predestination problem

01:08:40

And he says God knows all counterfactuals. He knows how you would act in a certain set of conditions and and again

01:08:49

Especially because I can't assume everyone has watched the last program and just because you tune in for this program or something like that Tuned in what does that even mean anymore?

01:08:59

But anyway You clicked click through whatever it is the

01:09:08

It's not just God knows counterfactuals it's that God is endowed to use

01:09:14

William Lane Craig's language endowed with the ability To know what free creatures would do in any given circumstance without God Decreeing to make the creature.

01:09:31

That's what middle knowledge is. It's between God's natural knowledge of himself and his free knowledge of What he chooses to create it's between the two so it can be logically prior to The second aspect of knowledge.

01:09:46

That's why it's called middle knowledge So That that's very very important because that's the only way for the system to work to try to save the autonomy of man is to make man

01:10:02

Something that is defined by something outside of God So if God can know what you're going to do in any given circumstance before God decrees to create you

01:10:17

Then You have a level of being that is outside of the creative will of God and I say

01:10:29

That's absurd. I Am who I am because God made me in this way.

01:10:34

He placed me in certain circumstances he made me with certain capacities and certain weaknesses and By placing me

01:10:42

With the parents that I have and the family that I have in the churches that I've been in in the nation that I've been

01:10:48

In he has made me be the person that I am. I am NOT some cosmic construct named

01:10:55

James White That would react in certain circumstances And that that constrains

01:11:03

God's Utilization of me Because I would have and I would have responded differently in the 12th century so I couldn't have lived in a 12th century

01:11:13

So he's got to run all these different scenarios And I can only function the way he wants me to function within a particular time frame and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah that's where you get

01:11:22

God is just basically a big supercomputer, and I think there's There's validity in in what you're saying there in the criticism of Mullinism but The proponents of Mullinism don't like to really come straight out and say

01:11:40

That this knowledge God has The reason it's called middle knowledge is it's between these two others and that means

01:11:48

It's knowledge that he has of you Before he wills to create you that's

01:11:57

I think I've really I just like to call on those are gonna promote Mullinism as a apologetic methodology or whatever

01:12:05

Put that out there let people know that you're actually presenting the idea that who they are is

01:12:13

Determined by someone or something other than God Because that's what you're saying That's what you're saying to them.

01:12:21

I looked up after the show where you played that I looked up the word in doubt every which way

01:12:27

I could And what do you mean every which way I could? Look you go to the encyclopedia all these different different dictionaries looking for every single

01:12:36

Definition of that word that I could find was passive Came from someplace else.

01:12:42

It came from somewhere else. So I find it an Amazing admission or assertion on his part

01:12:51

That he would use that word of all words you choose He would use that word because that says everything we've been saying.

01:12:59

Yeah, it does If that is his way if that is and we're talking about William Lane Craig at this point if William Lane Craig is trying to Get around the card dealer problem with saying that God is endowed with this knowledge.

01:13:11

He still needs to explain Has this is this knowledge that he has been eternally endowed with what is the origin and source of it?

01:13:21

There's there aren't any answers to this There are a lot of people that say I've found a new way around it

01:13:27

Well, I can guarantee you one thing the Apostles never dreamed of it back in a certain other set of conditions

01:13:33

I don't see why anything in the Bible would prevent God from doing that In fact, they're even here's here's what

01:13:39

I wanted to play this. Let me back this up Listen, listen to what is is said here.

01:13:45

I don't find anything Bible that would prevent God from it This is the issue

01:13:53

My assertion is this you want to do apologetics by presenting Christian truth

01:13:58

That is derived from Scripture Not arguments where the best you can say is well,

01:14:05

I can't find anything in Scripture that contradicts it Those are that that's very that's a very different approach

01:14:15

Very different approach. Let's listen to again how that how that works He's trying to resolve the the free will predestination problem and he says

01:14:22

God knows all counterfactuals He knows how you would act in a certain set of conditions and how you'd act in a certain other set of conditions

01:14:31

I don't see why anything in the Bible would prevent God from doing that in fact there even passages in the

01:14:37

Bible would seem to affirm that like for example when Jesus said if these Miracles were done in this town.

01:14:42

They would have repented in other words. He knows the counterfactual as to what happened now this is

01:14:49

One of the the few texts the people are out but I remember again

01:14:57

Within the past decade, I think William Lane Craig admitting

01:15:04

That Mullen ism is not something that is taught by the Apostles It's not not taught by inspired writers, but that it's just consistent

01:15:16

It's a it's a later way of understanding that is consistent but not taught by them but and and he

01:15:25

Mentioned this Texas's sometimes is but that's that's really not what it's saying and he's right. It's not what it's saying.

01:15:32

I Disagree Okay, he says this seems to present that well Let's let's think for just a moment.

01:15:38

This is of course. She is talking about crazing in Bethsaida He's talking about the ministry that he has been undertaking there in Galilee and He's warning about the hard -heartedness of the people who are

01:15:59

Standing in the very presence of the Son of God but are rejecting his call to repentance and faith in him and What he's saying is that the miracles that have been done in the streets of craze and in Bethsaida and It's interesting to me that the one time

01:16:18

I you know We were supposed to be going over there pretty soon and that's been moved back again

01:16:24

Thanks to the great panic of 2020 Which will become the great panic of 2021 if if we're not careful

01:16:34

But The one time I got to go over there One of the things it was really interesting.

01:16:39

I loved visiting the synagogues the first century synagogue in Capernaum, for example was just Fascinating to look at I'm sorry

01:16:53

Migdal Migdal not Capernaum the one in the one in Capernaum is probably second third But the first century in Migdal which there's a 99 % chance that Jesus Spoke in that those ruins those rocks had heard my

01:17:07

Savior speak. It was just fantastic anyway but in craze in Bethsaida, they

01:17:14

They can't find those They've been wiped out like they were wiped off the earth like Jesus's words of judgment were important words

01:17:27

He said if the miracles that have been done in you were done in the streets of Sodom Sodom and Gomorrah Now what was

01:17:33

Sodom and Gomorrah? represent to the people of that day Absolute evil. So what is

01:17:40

Jesus doing here is just actually giving a lesson in counterfactuals or is he giving a lesson in judgment is he not saying to people who think they're righteous that They're actually less righteous and less sensitive to the ministrations of God Than the people of old that they used as an example of what it means to be truly evil

01:18:06

Which was Sodom and Gomorrah What do you think is more likely that this is a judgment passage from Jesus saying you people are so hard That even the men of Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented at the miracles

01:18:22

You've seen or is he giving a philosophical discussion of counterfactuals? What do you think

01:18:29

Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious I think God being all -knowing knows all different scenarios of how we'd react under different circumstances

01:18:37

Okay, and how come that system was only developed 1 ,500 years after the

01:18:43

New Testament? Good question. Good question, especially if it is necessary to be able to interpret

01:18:51

What the text says there is? There is an appropriate level in in this question to point out that really now some people really argue that There was an

01:19:05

Anabaptist writer just you know, what would that be 30 years prior maybe?

01:19:11

to Louis de Molina the Jesuit So there are some who try to say that the

01:19:18

Anabaptist came up with this first, but you're still you're still talking 1 ,500 years after the time of Christ either either one

01:19:28

Before someone comes up with this Idea that God has a form of knowledge that no one had ever thought of before We somehow managed to work through the

01:19:37

Trinity and the hypothetic Union and resurrection all the rest that stuff never came up with this stuff all of a sudden the

01:19:44

Reformation and It wasn't Wasn't the Reformers who came up with this

01:19:51

It was others I Don't know why that would be a pride. I think it's in the New Testament It might be that someone first recognized it 1 ,500 years later.

01:20:00

Just What how can it so it's in the New Testament, but wasn't recognized?

01:20:07

for 1 ,500 years later Because he just he just said I think it's in the

01:20:13

New Testament So I think what he's saying is that one verse that he just gave means it's in the

01:20:19

New Testament That was actually a discussion of counterfactuals rather than a judgment proclamation

01:20:28

But then it wasn't recognized so is that an admission that yeah No one actually looked at Jesus's woes upon grazing of a state in the same way.

01:20:37

I do for at least 1 ,500 years I'm not sure if that's what that's going on there or not

01:20:42

John Calvin I mean John Calvin's 1 ,500 years after the New Testament to he's the one talking about it

01:20:48

Augustin of course talked about it in the 400s AD. No, wait a minute. I think I missed a word there

01:20:56

That would be a pride. I think it's in the New Testament It might be that someone first recognized it 1 ,500 years later.

01:21:01

Just like John Calvin I mean John Calvin's 1 ,500 years after the New Testament to he's the one talking about it

01:21:07

Augustin, of course talked about it in the 400s AD But people analyzing the scriptures come up with different doctrines all the time and you have to evaluate no matter when they emerged

01:21:17

Whether or not they're truer I'm hard having a hard time with that one.

01:21:23

I I Think the unstated subject of the talking about that one is predestination

01:21:31

But then he admits Augustin was talking about it. And of course, we've demonstrated others are talking about that much earlier than that But that's not parallel in in any way shape or form to Mullen ism

01:21:47

Mullen ism really is is a theological novum So I guess what he's saying is hey theological nomes are cool.

01:21:55

People come up with new theologies every day. Well, no, that's not true Are you literally saying that there's just all sorts of stuff we haven't yet discovered in the

01:22:06

New Testament or and that's a good thing Or an okay thing. Thank you. All right. Good question Jackson. Thank you

01:22:12

Yeah, so there you go. I I don't think that Mullen ism

01:22:18

Acquits itself real well biblically, especially as it is being utilized to provide some kind of Stuff I Am Restraining myself from addressing

01:22:38

Some textual critical issues. I want to I have the video to but I'm restraining myself because we are attempting to Set up some opportunities and So I'm Yeah Really biting my tongue

01:23:02

Maybe I'll get to tell you some more about it sometime in the future especially if this works out to where we can get a debate going on, but well, we will see so No more programs this week heading to Arkansas For the conference there.

01:23:19

We've posted stuff about that and I saw something just recently that It's almost the physical