Kyle Rittenhouse & The Broken Unbelieving Worldview

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00:00

Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it!

00:07

Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie? Or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional?

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Delusional's okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

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So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me!

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YES! What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

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Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke,

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Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and his shame.

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I love this. Hey, check this out. More from Proverbs. This is Proverbs 18. 13.

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There's more. Proverbs. Oh gosh, there's so much here.

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Okay, let me do this one. This is one of my favorites. Proverbs 18. 6. A fool's lips walk into a fight, and his mouth invites a beating.

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That's a great one. I really like that one a lot. A fool's lips walk into a fight, and his mouth invites a beating.

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It's just, it's perfect. It's perfect. That's good. Things we should say to our kids more.

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Yes, yes, absolutely. But here's another one just relevant for today's content. What we're going to be talking about today with Kyle Rittenhouse.

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And just justice in general and the culture around us. The first one, Proverbs 18. 13.

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If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame. But then there's more.

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And look at this one here. He who finds a wife finds a good thing. Yep, there you go. But Proverbs, that was 18.

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13. Proverbs 18. 17 says, The one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines him.

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So there is wisdom from the Word of God. I am Jeff. They call me the Ninja. That's Luke the

02:57

Bear right there. Joy the Girl. Hello. This is Apologia Radio. It's the gospel heard around the world, y 'all.

03:04

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Next week actually is being done by Dr. James White. So Dr. James White is coming into the studio.

04:48

He'll be doing Ask Me Anything for our all access supporters. And so be ready for that. It happens at Tuesday at 1 p .m.

04:56

Arizona time, I believe. Am I right about that, Isaac? Is Tuesday 1 p .m. Arizona? Yes, sir. Yep, Tuesday 1 p .m.

05:01

Arizona time. And we call it Arizona time because we don't even care what you guys are all doing with your time. Ours just stays the same all year long.

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We do what we want. We do what we please. We're like the Lord. We do not change. You know what's amazing? This is great.

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I think it's a blessing. Is that forever, when you're living in Arizona, you're trying to always constantly figure out, wait.

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What time are they on now? You're trying to figure out what time is this and that. Mountain Pacific. We're going between Mountain Pacific all the time.

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You're doing it. Where's Arizona now? Are they Mountain or are they Pacific? But for us, it's just Arizona time. And now it's an official category,

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Arizona time. So when we upload stuff on YouTube or Facebook, it doesn't ask me if it's Mountain or Pacific. It just says

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Arizona time. And I'm like, yes, that's the real time. There's also just a little tip for if you're ever confused about Arizona time.

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Don't ask an Arizona person because they live here. They're free from that. We don't put that on us.

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We are free. It's up to you to figure it out. Do a little thing where you ask Siri or Google or whoever your little person is,

06:02

Alexa maybe. Georgia says Wexa. Wexa? I'm just picturing someone walking around with a little person.

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Like this is who I asked for time. You can just say, what time is it in X state?

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And Google will tell you. That's all I do. I don't ask about Mountain or Pacific. Right. But don't ask an

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Arizonan because a part of living here is that we're free. A, we don't know. And B, we don't care.

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And what we will do is we'll just ask Google or Alexa. That's it. That's it.

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Skip the middleman. We'll ask Wexa. That's how we'll do it. Just for fun,

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I just wanted to show you because I think he's the most precious thing in the world. This is Augustine picking up a rock in my backyard or my front yard.

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Check it out. What is the rock? Is it heavy?

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Yeah, heavy. That's him giving all the proper physical and emotional response to something heavy.

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So yeah, that's just for fun. Welcome everybody to Apologia Radio. It's an important week. We have a lot of stuff going on in the world right now.

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And we're going to dig into the Kyle Rittenhouse stuff we're going to talk about. And we're going to actually engage in stuff that's going to blow your minds.

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Definitely want to talk about something that happened in – was this in Texas? This wasn't in Texas. This was

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South Carolina. Was it South – no, no, it was Texas because the guy who comes up to ask is from Houston.

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Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. This one's Texas. Because it happened in several places. Right now the Southern Baptist Convention in different states are actually wonderful.

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Brothers and Sisters in Christ are getting language adopted into what they're doing moving forward.

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That is to criminalize or to abolish abortion. And so it's happening across the country right now, different states.

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But we're going to play one of a Houston pastor, Nathan – is it Lino or Lino? I don't know.

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I'm sorry. I apologize. Where he comes up to argue to reject the SBTC resolution on abolishing abortion on a couple different grounds.

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I want to engage with that because he – men like him are actually the problem, and they're not helping either with the gospel and the culture in the area of abortion the way that they ought to.

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And it's their very, very poor reasoning and emotionally laden argumentation that is actually continuing the cause of injustice against the preborn.

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And I'm saying that as directly as I am because this man is a pastor who is speaking from behind a pulpit to the people of God.

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He needs to be confronted when he has an egregious error in this way. So I'm going to talk about that a bit.

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And we're going to talk about, of course, the man who admitted on the stand that he pointed the gun at Kyle Rittenhouse.

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And so we're going to get into all that today. But I wanted to announce to everybody that we put together something very special for you guys.

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We've been working on it now for about two weeks, I believe. Sort of a last minute thing, but it's been done really well.

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We are doing a Christmas devotional. 25 days, one a day, all the way to Christmas.

09:11

25 days of a Christmas devotional, Advent devotional. And it looks wonderful.

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Very excited about you guys seeing this. We're thinking of some very creative ways you can use this with your family. So it's something that you'll be able to go to Apollo GS Studios, wherever we're placing it, whether it's on YouTube or a website or whatever.

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You'll be able to go to it once a day, get the new content, and just sit with your family and do like a 5 to 10 minute long little devotional on the

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Advent of Christ. And we're very excited about it. So that's coming soon. Just put that in your ear so you guys are waiting for that.

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Luke, you wanted to bring something up before we get started here. Yeah, so I was able to go, a bunch of us went this week, on a

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Gentile tour of the Mormon temple in Mason. That's what they call it, yeah.

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They opened up to the Gentiles for like a month. And then they redo the carpet and stuff like that after you've desecrated it.

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Soiled it. You've soiled it, yeah? Yeah. I did have to wear little booty things on my feet, you know, so I didn't ruin everything with my

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Gentile feet. This has been happening since before COVID. This is a standard thing. So tell us about inside.

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You went inside. I went to the Snowflake Temple when they opened that one in Arizona. And it was definitely very eerie. But what did they let you actually view?

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Good question. I was going to say I was Luke the Gentile giant. But, sorry.

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It was interesting. We saw pretty much everything except the room with the veil and stuff.

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They don't let you in that one. Yeah, that's off limits. So a couple things that stood out to me.

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One, I'm pretty confident when you first walk in, they put a new picture of Jesus up. It's not, like, white muscle -bound

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Jesus. He's, like, Native American Jesus with, like, two little Native American girls. I was like, oh, that's interesting.

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Okay. Yep. But then the rest of the Jesus pictures everywhere were all super white

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Jesus. But I'm pretty sure that's a new addition. So there was that. When you went, was it a silent tour?

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This was the weirdest. I don't remember. So they're, like, prepping us, and they're like, so this is a silent tour, so you can hold your questions to the end.

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There will be no talking. So, like, literally everywhere you walk, there's just someone going. Well, I feel like that's what when you went to the one in Snowflakes.

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It's been so long. I feel like a part of what you said that was weird about it was that it was super quiet. Yeah, I think you might be right.

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For so many people being together, it was, like, no sound. Yeah, I think you're right. It's been so long.

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It was just eerie. 20 years, I think. No questions until you get to the end. And then when you get outside at the end, then there's, like, stations with pre -posed questions.

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Oh, okay. You go to. Anyway, so it was very honest.

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I was actually very surprised at how honest the tour was. In terms of the theology?

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Yes. So they take you, I mean, you went all the different, they have, like, a gazillion, like, instruction rooms.

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But, like, yeah, it was, like, weird. But there was one room we went into, I forget which one it was.

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But, I mean, they straight up said, like, it was the prep for baptism. And they're, like, this is where you come in, you know, where you're instructed before you're baptized.

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And, like, they straight up said, like, we believe that you must be baptized to enter the kingdom of God.

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And I was, like, thank you. I appreciate that. Good. And then we went into the baptismal, which was pretty cool.

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I mean, it's. Is it with all the oxen holding up the thing? So, yeah, we saw all that.

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And then there was a room where they talked about getting baptized from the dead and stuff.

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And it actually said something like where you go to receive the Holy Spirit through baptism on behalf of those who didn't have the opportunity or something like that.

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So, I mean, they were honest there. Again, they actually. And they said Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost. That's a change. But they actually were honest that they think you receive the

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Holy Spirit when you're baptized. Yeah. So, I was. It was very honest. I mean, other than that, it was just creepy and weird.

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I remember that distinctly. Yeah. Exactly that. Very, very weird. But, I mean, an enormous building project that's been going on for.

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I live down the street. It's been a long, long time. Oh, yeah. And, I mean, just I'm sure no expense spared.

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Oh, no. I mean, yeah. I know. I mean, I can see. I've seen their landscaping project. Yeah. And that's,

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I mean. It's insane the amount of money they put in this. Oh, yeah. And then the very last thing before you exit, this lady.

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So, there's like. We had 11 of us, but there was another group in this room. And she was like, so, hopefully you felt.

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You know, it was all about emotions. And she was like, so, if you all could think of one word to describe how you felt, what would that be?

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And I was like. Uncomfortable. Burning. I didn't say what

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I was like. I can't. I should be quiet on this one. I shouldn't say anything. Two words. Everlasting fire. Exactly.

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I can't do it in one. No, no. I got one. Gehenna. Yeah. Yeah. But, anyways.

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Yeah. It was. I mean, I'm glad I got to do it. Because I wanted to do that. Because I wanted to do it at the Gilbert Temple. And just wasn't able to make it work.

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Yeah. I was glad we took our kids. So, they got to experience it. I'm thankful that our kids. So, it was. You know,

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I had mine. And Henry was with us. And thankfully, none of them blurted out anything. Because I was very fearful that one of them would be like.

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Come on, man. Or something like. Well, it sounds like they're not new. Not new to the

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Mormon outreach. Yeah. Being respectful. It was interesting. I'm glad I got to do it.

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Very sad. It is a good experience to have. Yeah. Very sad. Definitely very sad. For sure. And hopefully sparks some excitement in our people to continue to do more evangelism to our

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Mormon friends and family and neighbors. Right. Which, by the way, no Christmas lights this year.

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Aw. But they are doing Easter pageants. Well, good. Easter pageants on. So, they're going to basically resume. Good. After the.

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Okay. Well, I'm excited about that. Because, yeah. It's been a lot of. It's been a long time. My life has been lacking since the

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Easter pageant. No Christmas lights. Way to see where they. It's. I mean, it's. You know, it was like all kind of leveled and kind of like sloped down a little bit.

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It's like 15 feet down. Really? They took out that much earth.

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Wow. Earth. Where all that's earth. It was crazy. Wow. If you guys wonder what we're talking about, a lot of videos you've seen on Apologia Studios where we're talking to Mormons and Mormon missionaries has taken place outside the

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Mormon temple in Mesa, Arizona. That's the temple that Luke is referring to that he went to go visit and get to see inside after they did the renovations.

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And so, we're very excited to have more things happening at the Mormon temple so we can go engage with the

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Mormon community. And hopefully, bless you guys with some eyes on what happens out there through the content we're able to film out there.

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So, let's get started everybody. You guys ready to go? All right. So, let's start with.

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I can't wait for you guys to hear this stuff related to the issue of abortion. I really can't wait for you to hear it.

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You need to stick around. If you have to take off, come back later and watch this video.

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You've got to hear this stuff on the issue of abortion that went before some legislators this past week.

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It is truly revealing. You need to see it. And hopefully, it encourages you to say, we can do this.

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Let's get into the fight. These people have nothing. And so, we're going to put that on the tail end.

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But let's start with the discussion of Kyle Rittenhouse. So, here's the situation. When I first think about what's going on,

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I posted today just a link from the Daily Wire of their live streaming of the actual court, the trial that's taking place.

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And somebody posted immediately after I just shared it. Okay, here's a live stream.

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Share it so everyone can see it. And also, I want to be able to go back myself and watch it later. And so, I shared it. And somebody put immediately under this, they said something like, how exactly is this edifying?

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Because I shared the trial, live stream of the trial. How is this edifying for Christians?

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And I thought to myself, you know, I didn't want to be abusive to the man. I thought to myself, well, if you don't think this is edifying talking about these things, you should stay away from Deuteronomy, Exodus, and Leviticus.

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Because that's like all that's about. Like, it's talking about justice, and court, and righteousness, and false witnesses, and what do you do, and cross -examination, all that stuff.

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It should be edifying for Christians to be concerned with justice. I'm not saying that every trial you watch is going to be edifying. But in terms of a conversation, it can be very edifying to talk about justice and how it should actually play out in the courts, and being able to examine these things.

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Because I just want to say at the front, when you look at the situation happening right now with Kyle Rittenhouse, we're accustomed as Americans to look at a situation like this and say, okay, charges are filed, this is a court case, you've got a judge, you've got a jury of peers, and you've got a defense, and you've got an offense.

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You've got the prosecutor and the defense. You have advocates for the state, advocates supposedly for the victims, and you've got advocates over here for the person who's supposed to be seen as innocent until proven guilty, and you've got an advocate.

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So, I want to just say, we're just accustomed to it, because we're raised in the West, that has been a beneficiary of all that took place in history of Christians actually speaking the

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Word of God into this context. So, even the situation of having an advocate being presumed innocent until proven guilty, and having cross -examination, and witnesses brought forth, all of that is a gift to the world from the

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Bible, from the Christian worldview, okay? So, if you love that stuff, if you love witnesses being demanded, if you love logic and reasoning, if you love the whole thing of cross -examination, if you love all of that, you've got to say, praise

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God for Moses, okay? You really do. You have to say, praise God for Moses, because we just are so ignorant of this today.

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Many of us raised in the public education system, the government education system, we don't understand oftentimes how in history and present day, today, you don't have that standard of justice, those standards of justice, just as the norm, right?

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You don't. I mean, you can look at, goodness gracious, things that are happening today. I often use it, because I think it's the most dramatic effect.

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Someone steals a loaf of bread, and you get your hand cut off. Is that justice? That would never fly in God's law.

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It's about repayment, making the person whole again. You had issues that the Christians were dealing with in England, specifically where they were, at times, you could have guards or police officers just break into your house, go through your stuff.

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You didn't even know what you're being accused of, and they didn't have to have really any evidence. It could just be based upon suspicion, or someone just made a claim, and they just start going through your stuff, or they haul you into court, and the entire court proceeding is actually given in a different language, and you're being asked even to swear an oath against yourself, and to speak in defense of yourself.

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Christians were viewing this situation, and when the Bible got put into the commoner's language, the common person's language, these

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Christians are now reading the Bible, and they're reading the first five books. It didn't take them long, and they're going, hmm, cross -examination.

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These people are supposed to be—you have to have witnesses. You've got to have multiple witnesses. You have to have multiple lines of independent testimony.

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All this stuff—goodness gracious, if a witness lies in court, they're supposed to get the punishment that would have been given to the accused.

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And so now Christians are starting to influence, via the Word of God, the law of their land.

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It was taking place in their land. And so transformation and reformation was taking place. We just take it as just—that's just the way things are, right?

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We have cross -examination. You've got lawyers. You've got judges. You've got the necessity of witnesses.

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But the thing that I read at the beginning of the show today, I think is important. Beyond the case law examples in the

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Old Testament, where God actually specifically tells them how to execute justice. He condemns false witnesses.

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Don't go with the crowd, the mob. You must have equal weights and measures, all that stuff. You've got to have like two to three independent lines of witness.

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All that—besides all of that, you also have wisdom throughout the Scriptures, but specifically in Proverbs 18.

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I read you 13, and I read you 17. 13 says, So what should that do to the normal person who loves the

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Word of God and wants to be submitted to Christ and cares about justice and righteousness in the world around them and loves their neighbor?

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It should make you pause, always. So basically what it's telling you is like, look, we're in the fallen world.

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You're going to have tussles. You're going to have conflict. You're going to have murder, death, theft, all that stuff. And so the first thing you're supposed to do is shut up and hear it, right?

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So you don't just flip off right away and just go with your presuppositions and assumptions about someone's guilt and start flying off into it and saying, guilty, guilty, guilty.

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You're supposed to hear the thing first. You're supposed to hear the matter first before you come to a decision on it.

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You want to have all the details. You're going to figure this out. Why? Because God's people are supposed to be concerned with truth. But there's also this amazing one here that says,

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There's cross -examination right there, and that also gives the child of God, it gives the godly woman, the godly man, the foundation to say, look, this person sounds very convincing, but there's probably another side to this.

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Everyone wants to tell their story and give it their own spin. God is telling you, you wait until you can get the other side before you determine the matter.

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And by the way, this specifically, the Proverbs is wisdom, obviously, for all of us across life. But some of this is actually directed just directly to the king.

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It's those who are supposed to exercise judgment in the land. And so this is just telling somebody who's in that kind of position, you need to hear both sides, which is why we have a court system today where you've got advocates for both sides, you've got witnesses coming on the stand, you've got rules and standards of evidence to bring stuff in, all that from Christianity.

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So at the jump, let's just say glory to God, praise God for Moses, and praise God for the word of God that gives us the opportunity to have a court system like what's happening with Carver and House.

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However, I got to say, I got to say this is wild. Look at what the world does.

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Look at the spin. Look at this. Look at that. Look at my screen right here.

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Check this out. So I pulled up this YouTube, the front page of YouTube.

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And this comes up. It's the Watch Live from Law and Crime Channel, 41 ,000 watching it live now.

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Look how they've actually done this. Check this out. Look at that.

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Now let me ask you, do you think that the person who put this live stream up has a perspective?

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Possibly. Maybe something they're trying to convince you of. It's not Kyle Rittenhouse's trial.

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The 18 -year -old young man, it's not Kyle Rittenhouse's trial.

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It is the Kenosha shooter trial. The Kenosha shooter trial.

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And it's accompanied by a mugshot, which implies that he's guilty. That was my second point.

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Exactly. You couldn't find another picture, a normal picture of Kyle Rittenhouse? Because here's the deal.

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This is my point. God's law demands that you are innocent until proven guilty.

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The whole way through that court trial, you have to say innocent, innocent, innocent, innocent.

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If you have a group of jurors, the thing that's going to be constantly said to the jurors of the trial, innocent.

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He is an innocent man, innocent man, innocent man, until they have given adequate evidence, independent, multiple lines of proof that he's actually guilty.

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You will see him as an innocent man. I do not believe that a law and crime network is seeing

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Kyle Rittenhouse in the midst of his trial as an innocent man. Why? Because they gave him a serial killer name.

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Right? Like you have serial killers, murderers. What do you call them? You call them the Columbine shooters. You call them the

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Green River killer. And you call, in this case, someone trying to vilify, obviously, the

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Kenosha shooter. And they use his mugshot, like you said. I could find in an instant 100 pictures of Kyle Rittenhouse in his normal clothes, not being seen as a criminal.

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So this is an example of a violation of this law. What? If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.

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Shame on you. Shame on you for calling him the Kenosha shooter. Look, here's the deal. I'm saying that in terms of that's the standard.

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You can't vilify someone and make the world think that they're actually guilty before the thing is played out.

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You can't give them a serial killer name like the Kenosha shooter. Well, and it's one thing to put your own personal commentary on YouTube and then another thing to live stream the footage with his mugshot.

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So it's a little different than them just giving their opinion. I wish they could have named him the

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Kenosha kicker. Well, he didn't kick anyone. I know. So missed opportunity.

26:36

I was hoping you guys would catch that. That's from a… I'm missing it. Home Alone?

26:43

Home Alone? Oh, yes. I was going to say. John Candy. Oh, the kicker. That's what I was like. I was like,

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I know John Candy says it. Were they the Kenosha kickers? Shut up. Are they seriously? Oh, wow. No, when you said it, I was like I hear those words coming out of John Candy's mouth.

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But I was like, what movie? I haven't watched that in a long, long time. Home Alone, of course. So at the start, when you talk about the

27:03

Kyle Rittenhouse situation, it's important as Christians if we're going to have any light in the midst of darkness and the assaults of the culture,

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I think we need to lay down these foundations to say God's word has standards as to the court and how it's supposed to operate and how we're supposed to actually operate in community with one another when somebody's actually accused.

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The answer is always God's law is innocent, innocent, innocent until there is adequate proof and evidence that someone's actually guilty.

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And from the beginning of the Bible, literally throughout the New Testament, you still have that standard of two to three witnesses before a person.

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You know it from Paul where he talks to Timothy where he says, receive no accusation against an elder unless it's on the basis of two to three witnesses.

27:46

All he's doing is applying the law of God from the court into the situation with elders.

27:52

Don't receive an accusation unless there's two to three independent lines of witness and evidence. In other words, see the person as innocent until there's evidence otherwise, to the contrary.

28:00

And so we live in a situation today where all the media has to do is just tell you the story.

28:08

We see this person as guilty. We're going to call him the Kenosha shooter, sort of a thing.

28:14

And you're being asked today to simply believe somebody because they make an accusation.

28:21

Just because they made an accusation, believe it. You know, we've got, of course, recent examples, fairly recent in our own history in the last six years, where you've got examples of, say, women accusing men of raping them with no evidence necessary.

28:37

But as soon as the charge is made, this person's a rapist, everyone's just supposed to believe it. That dude's life is over.

28:43

You're just automatically guilty. And the news cycle moves so quickly now.

28:50

Sometimes it's just a matter of a refresh on your internet browser. That sometimes someone is falsely accused, and by the time it actually comes to them being vindicated of that false accusation, no one even cares about the case anymore.

29:05

So in everyone's mind, it's just, it's kind of over. And that person's always known as that one guy that...

29:12

Yeah. Exactly. Now, by the way, this is so great. It's so providential because I'm back in Matthew this coming

29:19

Sunday in church, and I'm actually going to be talking about the trial with...

29:24

Well, that's not really a trial, but where they tried to bring Jesus before Caiaphas. He goes to Annas first, the father -in -law of Caiaphas, and then they go to Caiaphas, and then they go to Pilate, right?

29:35

But with Caiaphas, Caiaphas is the high priest. He's supposed to be the one who's in charge, and the buck stops with him sort of a thing.

29:42

But they're so corrupt at that day, and they're so envious of Jesus, that they're pulling together false witnesses to testify against him in court.

29:53

Now, what's amazing here is that when Jesus first has these people come to him, he has temple police coming to him with clubs, and he's got

30:00

Roman guards police coming to him with swords. The temple police weren't supposed to have swords, so they had clubs to beat people down with, but the

30:09

Romans were concerned with executing against crimes. So the temple really could only prosecute things that were like religious crimes, like Rome only let them have religious crimes like blasphemy, you know, temple stuff,

30:23

Jewish stuff. But if you were guilty of a crime like murder, rape, theft, something like that, that's where Rome is involved.

30:32

The strange situation going on with Jesus is when you have like a thousand people coming and pulling up on Jesus and the disciples of the garden, you've got

30:40

Roman police, and you've got temple police. This doesn't make any sense. Why are they together? No one even knows what the real charge is.

30:46

So they first bring Jesus to Annas and then to Caiaphas, and they're pulling together false witnesses and all the rest, and then they bring him to Pilate.

30:54

But what's weird is he hadn't committed any crime. Why is Pilate seeing him? Where's the theft? Where's the murder?

31:00

Where's the violation of another person? What's this doing before Pilate is the big question that everyone has to ask.

31:05

It's totally nefarious, totally corrupt to begin with. But I wanted to point out something that in John chapter 8, everyone knows, by the way, that Jesus, like Isaiah 53 says, that he doesn't open his mouth like a lamb led to the slaughter.

31:19

Everyone knows that during the trials of Jesus, you've got all these accusations coming, and Jesus isn't playing into it.

31:26

He's not willing to play their game and self -incriminate because he knows according to God's law, it's innocent until proven guilty.

31:34

Where are your witnesses is the question. That's the question to ask. Where's your witnesses? If I'm guilty, where's your witnesses?

31:40

And they can't figure it out because all they're doing is they're pulling like false witnesses whose stories won't come together.

31:45

And then at one point in Caiaphas's trial, Caiaphas wants Jesus to help him. He wants

31:51

Jesus to participate a little bit, like give me something to work with Jesus, and Jesus doesn't have to answer anything because he's the innocent one.

31:57

Innocent person doesn't have to self -incriminate. They don't have to defend themselves because if your witnesses are strong enough, they should be able to prove it.

32:07

I'm preaching on this Sunday, so this is perfect timing. But this is 18, John 18.

32:12

When he first goes to Annas' house, Annas, by the way, is the high priest before Caiaphas. It's Caiaphas's father -in -law.

32:19

So they bring him there first because everyone respects Annas. He's the old high priest, and then they bring him to Caiaphas. But it says in verse 19 of 18, the high priest then questioned

32:28

Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. Jesus answered him, I've spoken openly to the world.

32:34

I've always taught in synagogues and in the temple where all Jews come together. I've said nothing in secret.

32:39

Why do you ask me? Ask those who have heard me what I have said to them. They know what

32:44

I said. When he had said these things, one of the officers standing by struck Jesus with his hand, saying, is that how you answer the high priest?

32:54

By the way, isn't it funny? Here's this guy pretending to be a high priest when Jesus is actually the high priest.

32:59

And so Jesus gets hit. Jesus answered him, if what I said is wrong, bear witness about the wrong.

33:05

But if what I said is right, why do you strike me? So here's what Jesus is saying. I've spoken openly.

33:11

None of this is in secret. Everyone's heard what I said. If you want to know, go find some witnesses. Go ask them.

33:18

So Jesus is essentially saying, they're like, go ask the witnesses. Like, why are you asking me? Go ask the witnesses.

33:23

Everything I've said is open and public. So get your witnesses. And so then they hit Jesus, and Jesus is like, did

33:30

I say something wrong? Or is what I said right? If it was right, why'd you hit me? Because these people should know under God's law,

33:37

Jesus doesn't have to help. Go find your witnesses. You have to have accusers and witnesses. So what are you asking?

33:43

Why are you asking the accused to answer for himself? I don't have to.

33:49

So by the way, that's a whole historical background there, biblical background. So the fifth amendment, the right to remain silent, not to self -incriminate.

33:57

If you love the right to remain silent and not self -incriminate, then once again, thank Moses, thank the

34:03

Bible, thank the Word of God as the foundation for that. But here's Jesus actually doing that, where he's being accused and essentially saying this, go get your witnesses.

34:10

Everything I said is out in the open, so go find your witnesses. And then they hit him for saying that. And he's like, that's what you're supposed to be doing.

34:16

I'm like, am I wrong? I mean, don't you know the law of God? So here's a good example. So by the way, it doesn't mean, it just means that the accused has all the rights in this moment.

34:28

They have all the rights. The accused is innocent, and the accused has all the rights at that moment to basically say,

34:34

I don't have to answer you. If you've got such a strong case, you've got all this evidence, then go ahead and present it. I don't have to answer a thing.

34:40

But isn't it, it is interesting though. This is what I always thought is amazing, is that when Jesus goes from mock trial to mock trial to mock trial, when all that takes place, he never plays into their false witnesses making accusations, and that irritates them.

34:54

They're like, why aren't you answering? Because false witnesses are coming forward, and they can't get their story straight. And they're like, Jesus, can you help us a little bit with what they're, and Jesus says nothing.

35:02

And they're so frustrated by the fact that he won't, he won't help the false witnesses. But I do love the fact that when they ask

35:08

Jesus a direct question about truth, like about his identity, that's when he answers. Like that's when he answers.

35:15

I can testify to this. Yeah. I can answer that question, right? But he doesn't ever play into the hands of the accusers who are accusing him falsely.

35:24

So I just, I love that in the word of God. I think it's powerful. I'm going to go ahead and play the first clip here, unless you guys wanted to add something to this.

35:31

I was just going to say there's some comments you're going to want to respond to, but it will get us off track right now.

35:36

Okay. So let me go to this. Obviously a very emotional moment this week in the trial.

35:44

I was actually watching live when this happened. I just had this playing all day in my house at work, where I just have it on live stream playing.

35:53

So I was watching this moment when it actually happened. Very, very powerful moment. No matter what side of the issue somebody's on in this, you got to say it was a moving moment.

36:02

Because Rittenhouse was actually, all the way through, he was very coherent.

36:09

He was very clear. He was very specific. He was very calm. He was very matter -of -fact.

36:15

He knew all the details he needed to point to just right, in terms of how he expressed what took place that day, when he was given his side of what took place.

36:25

But when they asked him about the moment where there was actually a shooting or self -defense from his perspective, this was a moving moment.

36:34

I stepped towards the Duramax, and as I'm stepping forward, I believe his name is now

36:40

Joshua Zeminski, he steps towards me with a pistol in his hand. And as I'm walking towards to put out the fire,

36:54

I drop the fire extinguisher, and I take a step back. Okay. When you step back from Mr.

37:01

Zeminski, what's your plan? My plan is to get out of that situation and go back north down Sheridan Road to where the car source lot number 2 was.

37:16

And did you get back? Were you able to go in a northerly direction?

37:21

I wasn't. Describe what happened. Once I take that step back,

37:28

I look over my shoulder, and Mr. Rosenbaum was now running from my right side, and I was cornered from in front of me with Mr.

37:46

Zeminski. And there were three people right there.

38:13

That's what I run.

38:27

We're going to just take it. It's time for our break. Anyway, you can just relax for a minute, sir.

38:33

We're going to take a break, about 10 minutes, and please don't talk about the case during the break. Read, watch, or listen to any comment.

38:40

So that was the moment where he broke down. Obviously, in that moment, you know, again, whatever you think of the situation, we have to grant that for image bearers of God to shoot and kill another image bearer of God, it's going to be traumatic.

38:56

I mean, even in the process of war, where men will go to war, we know about military veterans coming home and dealing with the post -traumatic stress stuff and the trauma from living that life and killing other human beings.

39:08

Obviously, in that moment, he's reliving the trauma. Again, regardless of what you think about took place, that was the moment where he's reliving that trauma.

39:16

George, you want to? No, I mean, I was just going to say, you know, it's not something that… I mean,

39:26

I have a lot to say about that, but obviously, just even in terms of…

39:34

By the grace of God, you can handle going through something like that and having our… basically,

39:44

God made our brains and they do very interesting things when you take another life and that's not by accident and it's a very big deal.

39:54

And, you know, you mentioned veterans and most of them didn't… can't deal with it.

40:00

There's people who like… there's an amount of killing that you do that's kind of other than like supernaturally.

40:08

You kind of can't handle that. It's not something we were supposed to do ever.

40:17

It's not the way it ought to be. So, and a part of us just knows that, you know, well, and we understand whether you want to admit or not, you understand what another human being is, which is not nothing.

40:33

It's not a bag of cells or whatever. And it's a big deal. Obviously, some people are a little more hardened, but generally, it's something that you… it's very traumatic for people.

40:49

Yeah, and, you know, and rightly so. So, when we think about like healing as someone who's a military veteran that say, you know, went to rescue people and had to kill people in the process of rescuing somebody.

41:01

My role as a pastor is to try to speak to the foundations of that event. There is real evil in the world.

41:07

This is not the way things ought to be. But in these moments, you are acting as the hand of God for vengeance upon the wrongdoer.

41:14

And so you need to be able to actually rejoice in that moment that you were able to preserve human life and rescue the innocent.

41:21

In the process, you killed other image bearers of God who were acting in a wicked way.

41:27

You were the hand of God's justice and righteousness. So, actually, in this, you should worship God and rejoice that he used you to establish justice in this place.

41:37

But, you know, there's just no getting around the traumatic experience that human beings feel when you kill something.

41:43

That's, you know… Well, and you're like… just the way that our brains work and the way we remember things and, you know, like even in the last… well, maybe it wasn't the last episode of… you talked about Hellraiser.

41:57

Yeah. And how much it just seared into your brain and you can imagine it.

42:03

Yeah. As it happened. It's burned. Even today. Yeah. I mean, decades later. I remember it like it was yesterday.

42:09

And it's just… it's a very difficult… Trauma. Yeah. It's like that. You know, it's interesting because, you know, you guys are all going to think, well,

42:16

Wes, I know that there are men who are bigger men than me. You're more of a man than me, Luke, and you've done more manly things than me.

42:23

In terms of like, you know, hunting or… I've never been a part of anything like that. I've always gotten my food, my meat from the store.

42:31

From the freezer. From the freezer. It just shows up in my plate. I'm like, this is wonderful. I didn't have to go through any of the traumatic process of seeing the animal suffer or nothing.

42:39

But here's what's amazing is that God creates this world. He tells us you can eat these things.

42:44

These aren't human beings. Not on the same level as image bearers of God. So… but it's still… but let's be honest.

42:50

It's still traumatic. Like, okay. So, I'll let you in on something. I won't belabor this, but we decided we're going to try to raise some chickens.

42:57

We're going to have laying hens and we're going to have meat chickens. Like, we're going to have like… we're going to do our own little thing.

43:04

It's very difficult in Arizona because the heat is just tremendous in the summer. And so, allowing these chickens to survive in our summers…

43:12

They cook before they're ready. It's hard. They cook way before they're ready, right? So, we're still trying to figure that out. Like, you have to like build special structures in your yard to make sure you can keep them cool.

43:20

You got to have like all kinds of air flow and water to really let these things survive in July. Yeah, for real.

43:25

Okay. So, also we've got coyotes galore. Put them in a pool. A little chicken pool. We've got coyotes galore in Phoenix.

43:31

And so, the coyotes came and ate all my chickens. I had like 25 chickens, including some turkeys, and the coyotes…

43:37

We were losing one every single day and the coyotes just ate them all. So, what? The coyotes.

43:42

I'm sure. Well, there was someone… I'm completely… Someone consistently saying that there is no accommodation…

43:50

For violence. For violence. And that Christ rebuked that. And then he was saying that…

43:57

Well, he was speaking from a personal experience saying that he rebuked some intruders and they left.

44:06

They rebuked him with the word of God. Yeah. Good for you. So, very proud of you. So, but let's be real here and let's not be buffoons.

44:15

Okay? You live in a fallen world. There are evil people in this world who have evil intentions. Okay? And so,

44:20

God's law, not our emotions, have to be the standard. And right now, sir, I would say it sounds like off the cuff you're being ruled by your emotions and not

44:28

Scripture. Because if you set up a standard that says that we're not allowed to do violence to another human being under any circumstance, then what you're doing is you're making

44:37

God look like a sinner. Because if your standard of piety is don't do violence ever to any other human being, then you make

44:45

God look like a sinner. So again, if I adopt your emotionally laden position that is not based on Scripture, and I say, okay, great,

44:52

I'll adopt that. To perpetrate violence upon other human beings is actually wrong always. Then what

44:58

I would say is, again, now we go to the Bible and we see what kind of a fallacious suggestion that is because now it looks like God's a sinner.

45:05

Because he's telling people in his law that if somebody breaks into your house and you kill them in the process of them coming in to possibly present a mortal threat to you, you are, in fact, not guilty.

45:17

That is a just and righteous thing to do. Or, for example, when we read the Psalms and it says

45:23

Psalm 144 .1, Not the same standard that you are holding to.

45:34

That's an emotionally laden position that ends up hurting our neighbors. If you love your neighbor, you will perpetrate violence to the point of mortal blows to a person that is seeking to harm other human beings.

45:47

So, for example, if I had a man come into my house and threatened to rape and murder my family, it would be a moral indictment upon me if I did nothing to stop him.

46:00

So I would say that you, sir, are following a position that, call it emotional, don't call it biblical.

46:07

Because, again, if we adopt that pietistic standard that you've created, the Bible ends up looking like the heroes of the

46:14

Old Testament and even the New are all sinners, and especially God when he's commanding people to actually perpetrate violence upon evil people that God himself is in sin.

46:24

So what I would say is, number one, read your Bible. Number two, stop living based upon your emotions. This kind of thinking is destructive to the

46:31

Christian faith. And I will say also, if you want to see the perpetration of violence upon an image -bearer of God as a just act in the

46:41

New Testament, I can give you examples, but how about this one? In Acts 25, the apostle Paul is on trial, and he actually says, this is after the resurrection of Jesus, after the ascension of Jesus, he says in a trial, he says, if I've done anything worthy of death,

46:56

I don't object to dying. That's the inspired apostle, after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, new covenant is fully in force, saying in a trial, that if you need to perpetrate violence upon me as a human being to the point of death because I deserve it, then

47:11

I don't object to dying. So that's the apostle Paul, a fairly reliable witness on that point.

47:17

But let's get back to the discussion. Sorry. No, it's okay. It needs to be said, and some of you might be saying,

47:24

Jeff, you seem sort of riled up about that and kind of a serious heavy hand. Yeah, because here's the deal.

47:31

We've had all of these emotionally laden positions come into modern day evangelicalism and basing this upon emotions is what's destroying us in the area of ending abortion and it's destroying us in the area of men being stinking men.

47:48

Exactly right. Men need to be men. Men need to be leaders, providers, and fighters. You need to be a fighter.

47:55

Stop being an effeminate man. I'm saying this broadly to anybody. Stop being an effeminate man. You are supposed to fight when necessary to defend other image bearers of God.

48:06

Whether that means the victim you see on the street getting attacked or your own family being attacked, stop being an effeminate man.

48:12

Start being a man who actually fights and defends people even to the point of perpetrating violence upon wicked people who seek the destruction of human life.

48:20

So that's the biblical worldview. Like it or not, that's the biblical worldview. But what you can't say is,

48:26

I don't feel comfortable with that. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to make my emotions the standard that I'm going to apply to everybody else.

48:34

The truth is, And then say it's biblical. Yeah, and then call it biblical. Call it emotionalism, but don't call it

48:39

Christianity. The next thing is, it does apply to this situation. It certainly does apply to this situation because whatever comes out in the trial, and we're all still listening to witnesses, so, right, close your mouth.

48:52

Like we can say, I think it looks like this right now, but for now, close your mouth until you hear everything coming in.

48:58

But right now, it's going a certain direction for sure. The case here is all about this. And you can thank

49:03

Christianity for this too. Is this self -defense, right? Was he trying to defend his own life?

49:10

Or you could even say by extension the lives of others, if you have a person that shot, that shoots somebody, is he doing it in defense of his own life or the lives of others?

49:18

Was there a violent threat? That's the question. And so let's go to the man he shot.

49:24

Two people were killed, and one man survived, and by his own words, his bicep was vaporized.

49:31

But let's listen to his testimony, because that's really what we're going to get to, is was Kyle Rittenhouse acting in self -defense?

49:38

Now, there's two other people that are dead, so that's a different story, and each one has to be handled case by case.

49:45

But at least for this man, this is his own testimony by his own mouth.

49:52

And now wait, how close do you think you are to him at that point? 3 feet.

50:01

If it was 5 feet before, I would have... So tell me if I've got the lay of the land.

50:08

At this point, you're holding a loaded, chambered Glock 27 in your right hand, yes?

50:15

That is correct, yes. You are advancing on Mr.

50:21

Rittenhouse, who is seated on his butt, right? That is correct. You're moving forward, and your right hand drops down with your gun.

50:33

Your hands are no longer up, and now the gun is pointed in the direction of Mr. Rittenhouse. Agree?

50:40

I'll give you a picture, maybe that'll help. What? What's the next one?

50:59

He's been marked as exhibit 67.

51:19

So, Mr. Grosskreutz, I'm going to show you what has been marked as exhibit 67.

51:25

That's a photo of you, yes? Yes. Okay. That's Mr. Rittenhouse?

51:31

Correct. Okay. Now, you'd agree your firearm is pointed at Mr.

51:39

Rittenhouse, correct? Yes. Okay. And once your firearm is pointed at Mr.

51:48

Rittenhouse, that's when he fires his gun, yes? No. Sir, look,

51:56

I don't want toó Does this look like right now your arm is being shot? That looks like my bicep being vaporized, yes.

52:03

Okay. And it's being vaporized as you're pointing your gun directly at him. Yes? Yes.

52:11

Okay, so when you were standing 3 to 5 feet from him with your arms up in the air, he never fired, right?

52:21

Correct. It wasn't until you pointed your gun at him, advanced on him, with your gun, now your hands down, pointed at him, that he fired, right?

52:32

Correct. Love the silence the lawyer allows there.

52:51

Yeah. That is brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant technique there is to allow everyone to hear that, let that settle, let them all feel it, and let also this witness feel it as well.

53:04

So what do you got there? You have the admission from the witness that no, he did not fire at me, or aim his weapon at me with my hands up, but yeah, my gun was pointed at him and that's when he shot me.

53:13

So that's self -defense, at least in that case, clear -cut case of self -defense by the witness's own words.

53:20

And so witness is testifying against Kyle Rittenhouse, those were his words, that seems right in that moment, like a clear -cut case of self -defense.

53:28

If somebody is holding an armed weapon, fully loaded at your head, you have the right to defend yourself, and you should.

53:37

And so that, I think, is a clear -cut case of self -defense. And somebody did say in the comments there a moment ago, they said, what about when

53:44

Jesus says, those who live by the sword die by the sword. I fairly recently did a whole sermon on this.

53:49

I think it's somewhere in our thing here. I'd encourage you to go look at it. It's Jesus, weapons, and war. And I would really challenge you, if you are a

53:57

Christian pacifist, or you have those tendencies, to go and listen to that message, listen to it with an open mind, listen to it with an open

54:04

Bible. But it's really important that you actually read Jesus in context there, and we don't just go quote -mining through Scripture for pacifist verses, because that verse actually comes on the heels of Jesus actually telling the disciples to go by a sword.

54:18

He tells them to go by a sword, because he's going to send them on a mission, and they're going to need a sword. Now, I just want to say, in those days, swords weren't used for cutting butter or for doing laundry.

54:29

The swords were used to kill people. And so Jesus tells his disciples, go get a sword.

54:35

And then they find one and go, we found one. And he says, that's enough. Now, oddly, shortly after that,

54:41

Peter then goes to lop somebody's ear off and strike a man who did not present a mortal threat to him.

54:48

And also Jesus told them, this is what I've come to do. So when Jesus tells them, if you live by the sword, you're going to die by the sword, because that's the punishment of murder, capital punishment.

54:57

And so in context, Jesus is not saying, Christians no longer use swords to defend yourself. He literally just told them to buy a weapon to defend themselves, and they found it, and he said, it's enough.

55:08

That's the one. And so, by the way, why did Jesus have the sword on him when Malchus comes and gets his ear cut off there right after the garden?

55:17

Why did Peter have the sword? Because Jesus told him to get one. So he has the sword because Jesus told him to get a sword, and the sword was used for self -defense, for killing.

55:27

That's what the sword was used for. Again, it's not for butter. Yeah, I was just going to say a couple of things.

55:32

One, this person that we're talking about said, what about thou shalt not murder? Yeah, that's what it says.

55:39

It doesn't say thou shalt not kill. Murder. But they said, Christians shouldn't be soldiers unless they are soldiers of God, and our sword is the word.

55:48

It makes me want to slam my head through the wall. The inability, listen, brothers and sisters. The person we've been talking,

55:54

I mean, I think this is still a good conversation. It's very good, yes. And that's why we're having it. But just so you know, the person who we're speaking to is not listening at all.

56:04

No, they're not. And that's, you know. So that's for other people. For the other listeners who are concerned, this goes to show an inability to think in categories.

56:14

It is a major failure of Christians in the 21st century West, the ability to think in categories.

56:21

You've got a category over here of just war, something that is just, something that is righteous.

56:27

You've got a category over here of just self -defense. And then you've got a category over here of the spiritual realm where God uses those categories of actual just warfare and righteousness and soldiers and fighting and all that stuff.

56:39

And he takes those things, and he applies them over here to the spiritual realm of being a soldier for Christ and using the word of God.

56:46

Because those are two categories. Those are two places that you work in. But don't forget, you don't live just in a spiritual world.

56:52

You live in a physical world, and you live in a fallen world where there are evildoers who seek to take the lives of others.

56:59

You know, when you think, let's say, for example, you're walking down a dark street in a bad area downtown one night, and you pass by an alleyway, dark alleyway, trash everywhere.

57:11

And you look down the alleyway, and you see a man actually on top of a woman, and he's raping her in the alley.

57:17

Are you going to walk up to him and say, Sir, I'm a soldier of God. And, Sir, let me give you the word of God regarding rape.

57:27

What are you going to do? What's your first responsibility in that moment when you catch a man raping a woman?

57:33

What's your first responsibility? Not to simply say, do no violence. What does every man know he has to do?

57:40

You have to do everything you can to protect that woman who's now being a victim. This guy is a perpetrator of evil and sin and a crime.

57:47

You have to stop him physically. Now, I'm all for preaching the gospel to the guy once you get him into the cell.

57:54

Preach the gospel to the guy. Give him the word of God. Let him come to Christ. But in that moment, your responsibility is to preserve human life.

58:00

And it's her life that counts the most in that moment because he's the evil one. He's the criminal. Roberts tells us to rescue those being led to slaughter.

58:08

This is just an inability to think in categories. And Christians, we can't make these mistakes. We're all going to make mistakes of our thinking.

58:14

I'm going to make them. We're going to make them. But we shouldn't revel in our ability to make mistakes in categories and thinking.

58:23

So, next point. So that was Rittenhouse. I tried to lay down some foundations.

58:29

I hope they're helpful to you and important to you in terms of the word of God, setting the standard. This is the thing

58:34

I'm most concerned with when I see something like this happening right now is that we apply God's standards as Christians about how you're supposed to move through questions like this.

58:42

Like, hear everything. Come to proper conclusions. Make sure you hear both sides.

58:48

Make sure you assume Kyle Rittenhouse's innocence until there is proof to the contrary. That's how we have to treat everybody.

58:54

I want every atheist treated with that justice when he's accused. I want to treat the atheist as though he's innocent when he's accused until there is proof to the contrary.

59:06

That's justice. Equal Weights and Measures says that you don't show partiality. You never show partiality.

59:12

You apply the same standard across the board and make sure that justice is upheld. And one of the most important things we have to have in our own thinking today is that point there.

59:22

Innocent until proven guilty. Why? Because we live in the age of information and it's a constant information dump.

59:32

And you live in the age of information in the context of a fallen world where people make false accusations all the time.

59:38

They lie. And one of the things I'm going to make a point of this Sunday before the church when we go through that passage where Jesus is before Caiaphas is what can we learn from this?

59:48

Well, I think we have to learn from this as you start the question of, like, digging into evidence and accusations. You have to start with this foundation always and every time.

59:57

The assumption that human beings lie. Of course, there's times where human beings can be confused.

01:00:04

They might have limited information. But you have to start with the assumption that human beings lie. But when

01:00:10

God talks in his law about the courts and how you're supposed to uphold justice in the courts, there's always the assumption that this could be a false witness.

01:00:17

This person's innocent. This could be a false witness. His law is meant to protect all victims including victims of false witness.

01:00:27

That's right. And that means that there is a preference that a guilty person go free as opposed to a...

01:00:37

Well, because he doesn't ever go free. Because ultimately there's justice for all of us. But that...

01:00:44

So, you know, so basically people would say, and I think our current justice system is just because it's like, oh, well, it's not working.

01:00:55

Guilty people are going free. They're not. They're not going free. But there is an emphasis that we not create more victims.

01:01:02

So, in a way, there is more of a concern that someone not be found guilty that is innocent than someone guilty going free because ultimately they're not getting away with it.

01:01:15

Because it's the day of judgment. Right. That's the point. Exactly. And if you don't really believe that, then you don't really believe in a powerful

01:01:23

God that created justice. Right. Yeah, gave us the standards of justice.

01:01:30

Yeah, exactly. Well, you're making the point that Pastor James makes often is that secularists and humanists, atheists, unbelievers, who just believe this is all there is, they're constantly trying to pull justice, what they would call justice, into the now because they don't believe in an ultimate day of justice where everything is going to be answered and all the truth will all come out.

01:01:50

So, they're not as concerned with very strict, strong borders around these issues of justice because they just want to get the justice done now.

01:02:00

Right. And that's why it's so easy to accept accusations because it's like, let's just get justice done. Whereas God's law... You don't even have to go to a court anymore.

01:02:07

Yeah. You can just make a TikTok about someone who did something to me. Or put it on Facebook or whatever.

01:02:14

Because now we believe in the court of public opinion, which is all just feelings. Yeah, exactly. And so, you can find all manner of things said about so many different people from anonymous sources.

01:02:27

You've got just constant examples of people just making claims or remaining anonymous and making claims.

01:02:35

And the world today just says, that'll do it. That's fine. I guess I'll buy that. Well, God says, hear the other side.

01:02:41

Let all the evidence come in and assume the innocence of everybody until you have absolute proof to the contrary.

01:02:47

So, we're finishing up here, but I want to make sure we can play this. This is... Let me see if I can tell you more details about this because...

01:02:56

Where was this? I don't see any of the details on this that say where it came from. It is something that was just dropped this week,

01:03:03

I believe, Town Hall. Townhall .com posted this on their channel.

01:03:09

And you just got to hear it. And we'll probably stop it a few times in the midst of it. Just watch this. This is a person being asked about the issue of abortion.

01:03:26

That is incorrect. Okay. What does that organization do? I'm the co -executive director of Florida Access Network.

01:03:33

Okay. Well, our hearing outline said... So, the Action Network strongly supports legalized abortion, right? Correct. And help me understand the position of your organization.

01:03:42

These are simple yes or no questions. Is it okay to murder a 10 -year -old child? No one should be forced to remain pregnant if they don't want to.

01:03:51

Is it okay to murder a 10 -year -old child? Yes or no? I'm deeply offended that you would call me a murderer.

01:03:58

I'm not calling you a murderer. What? Is your conscience? That derailed very quickly. Is something on your conscience?

01:04:05

You might be projecting a little bit. Yeah. I think that's the therapeutic word. Yeah, that's exactly right. He asked you a question, a category, is it okay to murder a 10 -year -old child?

01:04:13

And your response is, we believe that everyone should be able to have an abortion if they want, essentially. No, that's not what

01:04:19

I asked you. Do you believe it's okay to kill a 10 -year -old child? I'm deeply offended you called me a murderer. Did you kill a 10 -year -old child?

01:04:26

Right. Are you confessing to something right now? Did you kill a 10 -year -old child? Or is something deeply embedded in your conscience that you know where this line of questioning is going because you know the logical conclusion of abortion and that's why you're already feeling the weight of it.

01:04:42

But note, brothers and sisters, as we play this, there is no coherent response coming from these people.

01:04:50

They can't. And what's important about that is that we're living in a time where God is raising up the church in such powerful ways to fight this issue of abortion with the gospel, with the truth, that we are making major headway.

01:05:04

Not only are we saving thousands upon thousands of children at the abortion mills, but we are also now getting bills and states of equal protection for all human beings and they cannot fight it coherently.

01:05:14

They cannot. And this line of questioning shows that because where he's at is, is it okay to kill a 10 -year -old child?

01:05:21

I would have said 10 -year -old human to make the argument stronger. Is it okay to kill a 10 -year -old human in an unjustified manner?

01:05:29

And listen where it goes. I'm asking you a question. Is it okay to murder a 10 -year -old child?

01:05:37

This is about your organization's position. Would they say yes or no? My organization's position is that no one should be forced to remain pregnant if they don't want to, and any abortion restrictions are...

01:05:51

Okay. Okay. Let me answer the question for you. I'm assuming that you do not advocate for the murder of children. Okay. What about a toddler?

01:05:58

I assume you would say it's not okay to murder a toddler either, a 2 -year -old. What about a newborn? Let me ask you this.

01:06:03

The position of the organization, are you for partial birth abortion? Is that the position of the organization?

01:06:09

Would you support that? What my organization is for is to support the people who need abortion care who are lied to when they are sent to alleged pregnancy resource centers that lie to the patient and tell them...

01:06:26

Would that apply to a woman who is nine months pregnant? I disagree with the premise of your question.

01:06:33

Yeah, that's completely incoherent. It would have been more honest for her to just start with that I disagree with the premise of your question from the moment he started asking her.

01:06:47

But, I mean, I don't know why she would... I don't know why she'd be involved if she didn't want to participate in the line of questioning.

01:06:54

Answer the questions. But, yeah. It goes further, but I just want to play this because I think it is so encouraging to the people of God to see that the opposition here to life, to the

01:07:09

Christian church in this respect, cannot respond in any coherent or meaningful way to these kinds of questions.

01:07:18

So all she can say when he's asking the questions about, how about a newborn? How about a toddler? How about a 10 -year -old? Is that we think women should just be able to kill their babies.

01:07:24

That's what she's saying. We think women should be able to have abortions. And then notice also the finesse on the language.

01:07:30

It's abortion care. Abortion care. Or they call it reproductive health care, right?

01:07:37

When that's actually not even what's taking place there. We're talking about killing a human being in the womb. But at least in the questioning here, what we're getting from her is consistency.

01:07:47

Because what she'll end up saying here is that at any point a mother wants to kill her child, she should be able to kill her child in the womb.

01:07:54

And so that's where this is going. Check it out. Would you support the abortion of a late -term unborn child?

01:08:05

Anybody should have the right to have an abortion at any time, for any reason. That's what I need.

01:08:11

So here's the thing. I'm just trying to understand the logical fallacy. All right, let's do it.

01:08:16

Anybody should be able to have an abortion at any time. And she said, for any reason.

01:08:23

All right, that's her standard. Now, say I adopt that. Anybody should be able to have an abortion for any time, for any reason.

01:08:31

Well, how about if it's a white woman that decides, you know what, I don't necessarily like the idea of having a black baby.

01:08:37

Something as racist and evil as that. Well, according to her standards, she should be able to kill the baby because it's black.

01:08:44

Exactly. Right? Anytime, for any reason. So if somebody says,

01:08:50

I don't want a black baby, they should be able to kill it because it's black. Well, that's your standard.

01:08:56

Anytime, any reason. And his point, obviously, is, okay, well, what's the difference between the six or nine inches?

01:09:06

What's so magical about the birth canal? Why can't you kill the newborn? Why can't you kill the toddler?

01:09:12

Why are we prosecuting the mother that drove her kids out in the middle of nowhere, turned around and shot them both in the chest?

01:09:18

Why are we prosecuting her? She's a mom who decided that she didn't want these kids anymore, and so she shot them in the chest.

01:09:24

Why is she being punished? That's the point. There's an inconsistency here that has to be called out, and there is no response coming, and this gets worse.

01:09:33

Pay attention. Not support, and I mean this sincerely, and this is not for you personally. I'm talking about the organization.

01:09:39

You support an advocacy organization. If it is not okay to take the life of a small child outside the womb, why is it okay to take the life of a small child nine inches up the birth canal, inside the womb?

01:09:54

What is the distinction? Help me understand the distinction of that. I don't understand the question. You would not support the murder of a small child, right?

01:10:05

No one would. No civilized person would. Why do we support the taking of a life of a child right before they're delivered?

01:10:13

No civilized person should support forced pregnancy. Does abortion take the life of something that's alive?

01:10:21

No one should be forced to remain pregnant against their will. Ma 'am, you're not answering my questions.

01:10:26

Let me ask the doctor on this screen. Is it okay, or let me ask you this.

01:10:32

Does abortion kill something that's alive, take the life of something that's alive? Sir, the way that you're asking these questions actually intentionally invite violence and harassment to both of us, to all of us.

01:10:44

I'm sorry. That's all they got. Brothers and sisters, that's all they've got.

01:10:51

They want to pull the violence card. Your words are hurting us.

01:10:56

They're provoking violence. He's asking literally a biological or scientific question.

01:11:03

Is what's in the womb human? Is it alive? He's asking a question about violence, and they're saying that his words are violent.

01:11:13

He's asking, is it okay to make something that's alive not alive anymore?

01:11:18

To perpetrate violence. They're saying no comment, but what's really cruel is you asking me questions that I don't like.

01:11:26

So the point is what you're saying is exactly right. That's a good point, is that they are perfectly willing, satisfied, and happy to perpetrate violence upon innocent, unborn human beings, but they don't like his words that are bringing violence upon them.

01:11:44

So it's not that these people don't like violence. They just prefer it be upon unborn children.

01:11:50

Yes, agreed. And he makes a point here in a moment about her being a doctor, and he's asking just a simple scientific or biological question.

01:11:58

It's about facts. Absurd response. You're a medical doctor. Tell me if there's an unborn child in the womb or not.

01:12:07

Are we killing something that's alive? When you dismember something in the womb, is that a human being or not?

01:12:14

It's a living being, yes or no? I am here to talk about medical care. Yes, this is a direct question about medical care, ma 'am.

01:12:21

You positioned yourself as an expert on the issue. Are we taking a life or not? Is it a life, yes or no?

01:12:28

What you are discussing is not the reality of how abortion care is delivered in this country. Yeah, it is.

01:12:34

Unbelievable. He asked a question about dismemberment. Yeah, it is. Especially the question that was asked before this one about partial birth abortion, where you've got a nine -month -old baby inside the womb.

01:12:44

It is about dismemberment. It is about cutting. It is about destroying. It is about stabbing.

01:12:50

Yes, it is all that. So when she says, like, you're not accurately describing the issue of abortion, yes, he is.

01:12:56

Have you ever seen those videos of abortions as they're taking place? Have you ever seen them cutting arms and legs off of babies?

01:13:04

I have. Have you ever seen them crushing their skulls? I have. Have you ever seen their brains flowing out of the vaginal canal?

01:13:10

I have. That's exactly what takes place in the issue of abortion. She's supposed to be a medical doctor, and she can't answer the questions because there is no rational, righteous, just, coherent response to these questions.

01:13:24

They cannot sustain their position via coherent argumentation, so they have to play on words and offer finesse.

01:13:31

They have to call it reproductive care. They have to call it abortion care, all the rest, but they have to stay away from the fundamental reality that what

01:13:39

I am doing is I am taking the life of a human being. Well, and they're, like, they're,

01:13:45

I don't know, weird. They're weird phrasing. It's all just, this whole industry, the words they use and the way they spin it, it's all done to rationalize what's actually happening, and it's done to hide.

01:14:04

You know the video we watched earlier of Kyle breaking down that trauma?

01:14:09

Right. It's all done to hide that, which is what's happening to women who are realizing what they've done after the fact, and it's just so especially evil because it is, you're talking about potentially, en masse, women that are grieving over a choice that they made to kill, and then when they're actually feeling some remorse, when they're actually feeling some humanity, you have groups that come in and say, no, no, your evil was good, and that's the most insidious evil of all.

01:14:49

It really is someone that, you know, this is just another level, the person that says, no, no, it's okay.

01:14:58

It's okay that you did it. It's right. It's not evil. It was right, and it was a good thing.

01:15:04

It's just, I mean, no wonder they don't want to answer any questions because it's incoherent, and it's totally evil.

01:15:10

I was going to say, this is Roman's one to a T. Yeah, yes. Well, you know, Joy, to what you just said, this story is really all across the country.

01:15:20

Monday, October 25th, so fairly recent. Portland, take a look at the screen here.

01:15:25

Portland offers bereavement leave to city employees who have abortion. Portland offers bereavement leave to city employees who have abortion.

01:15:34

Why would you need bereavement leave if you have an abortion? I mean, what's happening in abortion that would cause that kind of grief?

01:15:43

So even the secular world that adopts the standard of being able to kill your child at will in the womb, because they're in the image of God, they can't escape the reality of grief.

01:15:55

Right. So the delusion forces them to turn women who regret murdering their child into martyrs, someone who made a hard decision to ultimately do what was right for her.

01:16:09

Right. And that's technically what the woman is grieving now, right, when really she's grieving the fact that she killed her child.

01:16:19

I mean, I think that we already talked about in this episode, there's obviously going to be grief for a person that kills anyone, but there is nothing less natural than a woman killing the child that is growing inside her.

01:16:37

Like, the connection that is there is not, it's not fabricated, it's not a social construct.

01:16:44

I just remembered, how did we cut my story off with the chickens? How did I even end that story?

01:16:49

I don't even remember. We must have just lost track there, because I was trying to tell a story about the chickens, and this is what

01:16:55

I was getting at in terms of— I don't even remember how— No, I brought up the chickens in the yard, and the coyotes took it, and people were probably like, okay, what's your point,

01:17:01

Jeff? I'm so sorry, guys. I totally left that and didn't even tell you why I was saying it. That was just a quick chicken break. A quick chicken break.

01:17:07

So my point was not that the coyotes came and stole my chickens, and that was really traumatizing, even though it really was kind of traumatizing for me, because I worked so hard to raise those chickens.

01:17:16

But when it was time to go ahead and get our first meat chicken, I've never killed a chicken before.

01:17:23

Oh, this is where you're going. Yeah, so the part about traumatizing. Yeah. Even though God tells us we can do this, it's still a traumatizing experience.

01:17:35

So I watched a ton of videos on how to do this in a way that's most, quote, pleasant for the chickens, so they don't really feel any pain.

01:17:41

The least violent. Yeah. I tried to figure out a way to do it in a way where I wasn't going to be struggling with the chicken, putting the chicken through a bunch of pain.

01:17:48

And so we figured it out, got a chopping block, got the axe and everything, figured out how to make the chicken comfortable, lay its head down, all that stuff.

01:17:57

Don't laugh at me for this, dude. So I put the chicken down, and my hands are shaking.

01:18:02

Now, I've fought people that are twice my size. I can get in a line with an opponent, and I'm telling you right now, it's just years.

01:18:11

Right now, no fear whatsoever. I feel fine. Not afraid of this person. There's no hands perfectly still, right?

01:18:18

But I've got the chicken on the block. I'm petting it so that it's comfortable. It's, like, laying down for me now. And my hand is shaking with the axe.

01:18:26

And Stellar's watching me. He's like, just do it, Dad. He's like, just do it. He's like, just give me the axe. Just do it. So my hand is shaking, and I'm like,

01:18:32

I don't want to miss. And so my hand is shaking, and so I throw the axe, and I hit the chicken, but I didn't hit it hard enough.

01:18:40

And so the axe bounces off of its neck. The chicken goes berserk, and now I have to chase the chicken around with its neck half broken.

01:18:47

And I'm just like, I'm telling you, my eyes are filling with tears. I'm feeling so awful. The whole thing.

01:18:53

I finally get it, and I'm like, put it back on the block, and now it's, like, struggling. So I chop its head off. I get it all done.

01:18:58

I killed my first chicken, decapitated it. But for, like, three hours later, my hands were shaking, and I was just these flashes of, like,

01:19:05

I just totally... You still have nightmares of that chicken. I hurt that chicken. I'm like, I hurt the chicken. It was traumatizing, just hurting the chicken, like, not doing it right.

01:19:12

Right. Bothered me, because I didn't want to cause a bunch of pain for this thing. That was my point about trauma. You have nightmares of a broken -neck chicken?

01:19:19

Why, Jeff? Why? I wake up, and it's at the edge of my bed, just staring at me. I'll turn sideways. It's just looking at me.

01:19:26

I'm like, ah! There's a chicken! Chicken's name was Leroy. I'm like, Leroy!

01:19:31

Oh, my goodness. Okay, let's move back. We're going to finish this. Yeah. Well, we lose the audio there.

01:19:38

Let's kick it back on. I would say that that's non -responsive, and I think we all know why you don't want to respond to that, because the obvious fact here is that you're taking a human life.

01:19:50

It's a small human life. It's a human being. Let me ask you, doctor. Should abortion be allowed because of the sex of the pre -born child, in your medical opinion?

01:19:59

I do not believe that there should be any restrictions on the bodily autonomy that people have. Hold on.

01:20:05

So if someone gets a pregnancy test, so let's try that one. There should be no restrictions and bodily autonomy.

01:20:14

You just lost the whole foundation of your fight, because if you say that bodily autonomy is a thing, if you believe in bodily autonomy, then you must be pro -life, abolitionist.

01:20:29

You must be on this side, because bodily autonomy says that you can't do something to someone's body apart from their consent, apart from their own will.

01:20:38

And what's taking place in every single abortion is you are violating the bodily autonomy of a unique, developing human being in the womb.

01:20:48

So if you believe in bodily autonomy, you can't be pro -choice. You can't be pro -abortion, because there are two bodies, two bodies in front of you, with the pregnant woman and the baby inside.

01:20:59

There are two bodies there, and if you want to argue for bodily autonomy, then you're on my side.

01:21:05

But you won't be, because you're inconsistent, and the reality is that this is an issue of sin. It's not an issue of what is the case.

01:21:13

I made the point this last week while I was in Texas. It's not an issue on the other side for what is the case.

01:21:19

It's not an ontological question, like, what is this? No one can dispute it's human being from conception.

01:21:27

So it's not an ontological question, it's an ethical question. Not ontology, it's ethical.

01:21:32

They know that it's human, and they don't care. They say you should be able to kill it anyways.

01:21:39

So the point is, is that this is an ethical question, and they believe you ought to be able to murder your child in the womb, if you want to.

01:21:46

And that's why we need to continuously press the issue of what's in the womb is human from conception, and what you're saying is that we can kill human beings in an unjustified manner.

01:21:57

That's what you're saying. Well, it's just funny, because you can't just come out and say, I wonder why. Why would you not just want to come out and say, yeah,

01:22:05

I believe we should be able to kill people without restrictions. Right, yeah. It's like, because you know that's horrible.

01:22:11

You know it. That's why you're dancing around, and you're not answering the question. Offering a little finesse. It's obvious.

01:22:17

Abortion care, all the rest. I mean. Yeah, so what we have to do, my point is, is you have to expose that this is ethical.

01:22:25

It's ethical. This is sin. It's crime. Because you know what it is, and you do not care.

01:22:32

You believe that we ought to be able to murder children in the womb because we want to. Exactly. That's an ethical problem.

01:22:38

So we need to basically vilify their ethical problem. The same way you would vilify the ethical problem of people who are involved in kidnapping and enslaving black people, you vilify their ethical situation.

01:22:52

You say this is an abomination, this is a moral evil, and you vilify the position. Right? Because for them, again, it's not an ontological question.

01:23:00

They know what's in the womb. They just believe that ethically, a mom has the right to kill her baby. Different morality.

01:23:06

So we're not going to have time because we've been going a long time today. We're not going to have time to do the other one. We'll probably do it next week. The pastor in Houston, I believe

01:23:12

Houston, who went up and tried to argue against the issue of abolition in the Southern Baptist Conventions meeting will try to maybe do that next week.

01:23:21

But I want to encourage everybody to go to ApologioStudios .com. Go to ApologioStudios .com.

01:23:27

Get signed up for all access. Get your free Bonson U account. Start that right away. You'll be learning a ton of stuff.

01:23:33

Go to EndAbortionNow .com to get your church signed up. Get equipped. Go out. Save lives with the over 800 churches that are already signed up.

01:23:40

And pray for us. Partner with us at EndAbortionNow .com. Give there. Sign up with us.

01:23:46

And help us as we've got more states coming with bills of equal protection. We're working on Colorado right now.

01:23:52

We're working on Louisiana. A couple other states right now. So pray for us and join with us in this fight.

01:23:57

That's Luke the Bear. Peace out. And by the way, sorry, we'll be in, as a reminder, we'll be in Louisiana. Pollock, Louisiana.

01:24:04

On December, I believe, I lost the date. Sorry. December. I lost it.

01:24:12

Where's my count? There we go. Third. December 3rd. December 3rd. All right, everybody. God bless you. That's Joy the