Mormon Tells Durbin to Repent

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

I'm Jeff by the way, I'm sorry, I'm just butting in here, I just overheard you. I'm Robert. Okay. I'm Blake.

00:05

Can I ask you a question about what you just said there? When you said you can show from scriptures that there's a distinction between Jesus and the

00:13

Father. Correct. So what do you think the Trinity teaching is? What do you think Christians believe about the

00:18

Trinity? Well, I mean, it's hard for me to understand from your guys' standpoint the

00:27

Trinity, but that there's three separate beings, right?

00:33

Well, that's what Mormonism teaches. There are three... But isn't the Trinity, there's three different identities showing what

00:40

God's roles are? That's what I was asking you. So three persons, three co -eternal, co -equal persons, one being.

00:49

One God by nature, eternally existent as three distinct persons.

00:54

Correct. So when you said, I can show you from the scriptures that there's a distinction in person between the

01:00

Father and the Son, I say, yay, amen. That's what we believe. That's what Christians have taught for 2 ,000 years.

01:06

That's what we've always believed, that Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not the Son. There's a distinction. Right. But only one

01:12

God by nature. Right. And I understand where you guys are coming from, that there's definitely passages, you know, like the one he just shared in Isaiah that, you know, there's only one

01:24

God, there's not one before or after, and so on. And he doesn't know another. And he doesn't know another, correct. And I get that.

01:31

But how do you explain in John the great high priest's prayer by Jesus Christ when he prays for his disciples to be one?

01:41

And he goes into a very, you know, he says, me and the Father are one. You know, he goes into that very distinctly.

01:47

And then he throws this in, he says, that they may be one even as thou are in me, me and thou, and that they may be one like us.

01:55

Right. Right. So, obviously, he's not asking or praying that they merge into one person.

02:03

Because that's not what he's talking about. He's not talking about God's nature there. Like let them be. So what is he talking about?

02:08

Why would he, what, explain, what, I mean, what. Okay. So unity, right.

02:13

Yeah. Yeah. But would you not say, so yeah, so we would agree on that unity.

02:20

Yeah. So how about if we go to the garden then, Christ is in the garden, and he, how do you explain this then,

02:32

I mean, he prays to the Father that, that he prays to the

02:37

Father that it, that his will be done and not his. So how, if they're one being, how could they have different wills?

02:44

How could they be separated in that? It's a very good question. So it's an excellent question.

02:49

So fundamentally, from Genesis to Revelation, the Bible teaches there is only one God, none before, none after.

02:56

He doesn't know of any other gods. And so when you look at the garden, you see

03:01

Christ who, who called himself God, he called himself I am, ego eimi, who said that he was equal with the

03:08

Father, who said he was one with the Father, who did all the things that only God can do, like forgive sins and those sorts of things.

03:15

You see him, and I'm going to answer the question, Philippians, my answer is essentially Philippians 2. The Apostle Paul talks about Christ who was in very nature

03:24

God, and he says, but he did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped or held onto.

03:31

He says, but he emptied himself and he humbled himself and became obedient even to death. So the answer is, is what you see in the garden is

03:38

Christ who is God and man, fully God and fully man, who is our representative, submitting himself to the will of the

03:47

Father. And that's, I think, one of the distinctions between the Mormon view of salvation and the Christian view of salvation, is we believe that Jesus is our full representative and we get his righteousness, his perfect representative life credited to us through faith.

04:01

It's not our righteousness we stand before God with. And I understand that it's not our righteousness and that we are saved by grace and not words and those items, but I would disagree and I would disagree and find that there are multiple other sources that there can be two interpretations.

04:22

I understand your interpretation of the doctrine, but I believe biblically that there is a strong, strong case for that Jesus Christ and God are different individuals.

04:33

Well, they are different persons, not different gods though. So you said different interpretations.

04:39

Can I just try one thing? Just on the point of interpretation so we can try to clear away that dross for a moment, okay?

04:47

If somebody, Jesus says, you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself. Now if somebody, you saw somebody beating on their neighbor, like punching him in the face and tearing him into pieces, and you say, hey, what are you doing?

05:00

And they said, well, Jesus taught me to beat my neighbor. You would say, where do you get that?

05:05

Well, it says it right there. You're like, no, it says love your neighbor as you love yourself. It's pretty clear cut. Yeah, we could just reject it.

05:10

And they could just, they could say, well, that's my interpretation. My interpretation is beat him. Correct. And what would they be doing in that case?

05:16

Would they just have another valid interpretation or would they actually be... An invalid interpretation. Very good. Okay. So it's not...

05:22

So are you telling me that mine and millions of other people's interpretation of that is incorrect?

05:29

Of what? Of that God and Jesus Christ are separate individuals.

05:34

No, no. That's what we're... See, this is where we have a point of agreement and contact to a point. We also believe that Jesus and the

05:40

Father are not the same person. John chapter 1 teaches that. In the beginning was the

05:46

Word. Right. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God. Right. Correct. So we believe...

05:51

And one of the things you're attacking right now is, it sounds like modalism, where like, it almost sounds like you think that Christians believe

05:57

Jesus is the Father. Well, hold on. Let's clear something up. So I'm as Christian as anybody you know.

06:05

Okay? So let's clarify. You're a Christian. I'm a Christian. Are you a

06:11

Latter -day Saint? Absolutely. How are you a Christian then? So is a Christian somebody who believes in Jesus Christ?

06:18

Is a Christian somebody who believes that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem?

06:23

He was the Son of Mary, the only begotten of the Father, the Son of God. Is he

06:30

Lucifer's brother? Yes. Okay. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's a different Christ. That, that,

06:36

I would say that, I would, I would say that that is equal to, for you to say that to me would be equal to the

06:43

Pharisees using words and manipulating me. Why... So I reject it. So here's the deal.

06:48

Well, let's talk about that though. Let's talk about this. So, so the Jesus I believe in was born in Bethlehem.

06:54

His mother was Mary. Well, is it Bethlehem or Jerusalem? Because the

06:59

Book of Mormon says Jerusalem, but the Bible says Bethlehem. No, that's not true. It says at Jerusalem, which is near to or close to.

07:04

So no, that's not true. No, no, no. That is true. That's not how the Jews interpreted it. Do you remember when they said, remember when they said

07:10

Jesus was from Nazareth and the Jews says he can't be the Messiah because he has to come from Bethlehem? Nazareth is in the vicinity of Bethlehem in the same way that...

07:18

In the Book of Mormon, it says he was born at Jerusalem. What does at mean?

07:23

But that contradicts the scriptures. No, it doesn't. It does. No, because what's at mean? No, it does. What does at mean?

07:29

In the place of? It is near to. Well, except the problem is, is the Jews didn't interpret the...

07:35

Let's not over... What, did you notice that... All Mormons... Do you notice when a Christian tries to address the issue, you won't allow the answer to come forward.

07:43

Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, so the Jews didn't take that interpretation of vicinity of or around because when

07:49

Jesus was said to be from Nazareth, they almost rejected him because they said he was from Nazareth.

07:56

Because they said the Messiah had to come from, according to Micah 5, from Bethlehem. I understand what you're saying, but...

08:01

So the idea of vicinity didn't work for the Jews. Well, let's just get this straight, okay? All letters to the saints believe that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem.

08:12

Okay. The Book of Mormon, the way that it is translated in the Book of Mormon, says the...

08:20

So let's not... I would think we're getting down to... No, no, that's fine. I'm saying, I'm making a point of...

08:25

We're pin... But yeah, but I think your point's inaccurate. I reject it. Okay, so how about this? The Jesus of Mormonism isn't just born in...

08:34

Well, let me finish because I took your point, ready? So Jesus in Mormonism is one

08:39

God among a pantheon of gods. He's one God among many. He is Lucifer's brother.

08:45

He is the offspring of Elohim and one of his wives. The Jesus of John chapter 1 is the eternal

08:51

God, always existent, and he created everything in existence, including Satan. That's not the same

08:58

Jesus. That's an idol, much like... So here's the deal. Doctrinally, me and you disagree.

09:05

What would you say to that, though? I just gave you a text. I reject it because I think you're... You reject the text. I reject your interpretation of the text, and I'll tell you why.

09:12

I'll tell you why I reject your interpretation of the text. Okay. Okay? I just read... Yeah, I quoted it. Okay, because listen.

09:19

You... I believe that Jesus Christ is... The literal offspring...

09:27

The literal offspring. That's... I know you don't believe that. That's why you're not Christian. No, that's incorrect.

09:33

That's incorrect. So the Jesus Christ I believe in, he was born in Bethlehem. You've said that?

09:39

Yes. His mother is Mary. Did Heavenly Father have sex with Mary to produce Jesus? Not that I know of.

09:47

Well, Brigham Young taught that he did. Well... That... That... I don't know.

09:53

Either way. So listen. So listen. So... Listen. Just... Just agree with me where you can, right?

10:00

Gotcha. So the Jesus Christ I believe in, you know, those items that we talked about, he's the son of God...

10:08

Disagree. I believe he's the son of God, but not in the sense that you do. But do the scriptures teach he's the son of God?

10:13

Yes. But the scriptures teach that he's the monogamous, theos, the unique and one of a kind. So are you telling me that only people that study the other languages can get down to the...

10:23

No. I'm explaining to you that words have meaning. I understand. Like, for example, you were fighting over Jerusalem and Bethlehem a moment ago.

10:29

Right. But when we get down to the precision of who Jesus is, you want to sort of blanket plain vanilla.

10:35

But the problem is... Let's take it off of us for a second. Burden off you. Okay. Completely. Okay. A Muslim walks up right now and he says to you and I both, he says, you're both crazy.

10:46

Hold on, let me finish. We can just reject it. So hold on. Let me ask you how you'd answer him. He says to you, he says, you're actually completely wrong.

10:54

Jesus is not the divine son of God. He didn't die on a cross and he didn't rise from the dead. But I believe in Jesus too, as a

11:01

Muslim. Right. Does he believe in Jesus? Uh, I, well, I think he could believe in Jesus, but not the...

11:08

He rejects... But he, yeah, he, his belief is incorrect.

11:14

So that's not Jesus? Well, no, because that, that's not the physical

11:19

Jesus that died on the cross and suffered a good suffering. Thank you. But, but... And neither is yours. No, you're wrong because the

11:24

Jesus I believe in is the one that you believe in. He's the one... Listen, listen. I'm listening. You gotta listen.

11:31

You gotta listen. He's the one that suffered in the garden. He was raised on the cross. He was risen on the third day.

11:37

And is that the Jesus you believe in? Well, you also... Just answer it. Just answer it. Let me answer. Is that the

11:43

Jesus you believe in? I believe in the eternal... Let me finish. No, no. I don't know where you're going.

11:48

But the point is... I feel like you're being... What's important for you to embrace is that when you, listen, a broken clock is right once a day.

11:58

Right. Okay? Right. And you can be right on the fact that there was a biblical truth that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead.

12:05

But if you distort the nature of God, the person of Christ, and you make him into a different Christ, you're following a false one.

12:12

I know, but I... No matter where else you're right. So, I know. So, you're gonna say me and millions of others are wrong.

12:18

I know. Absolutely. Right. Okay. So, the point being is that's where we stop.

12:24

Why should we stop? Because the scriptures, the Bible, the biblical view of the

12:29

Bible, I can make valid points the way that you're making valid points. And I'm saying your points are valid.

12:35

They're logical. They're... They're biblical. My... My... Your view of Jesus as the brother of Lucifer is false.

12:43

It's rejected by scripture. Okay. So... Where? Tell me.

12:48

Tell me where. Let's stay in the same text we were in. John chapter one. Okay. In the beginning was the word. Okay.

12:53

And the word was with God. And the word was God. And then it says, he was in the beginning with God and all things came into being through him and nothing came into being that's coming to being except through him.

13:04

Okay. So, that text says that Jesus always existed from all eternity with the father in intimate relationship.

13:10

He was by very nature God. And it says very clearly, he created everything that's come into being.

13:16

Now, in Mormonism, that's not true. Well, and this is what I have to say about this, is that, that you and I, I don't think under...

13:27

Have the knowledge to be able to understand that. It's just a contradiction. What's a contradiction?

13:32

It's just a contradiction of your view. No, it is. It is a contradiction. I can't comprehend that.

13:38

I can't. It's a different Christ. No, you're wrong. It is. I'll give you another example. Wait, wait, wait. Okay, listen.

13:43

Okay. Because, how, because, can you not say it's a valid point that Jesus Christ is the son of God?

13:51

Is he not? In the sense that you mean. What does that say? That he was, that Elohim had... Okay. Was it from a biblical view?

13:57

Yes. What is it? I mean, I guess if you go into some trinity... No, no. I'm talking just scripture.

14:02

Okay. Okay. No, no, no. Because you can't say just scripture because you're interpreting scripture. You should. You bet.

14:07

You bet. Okay, so listen. And the question is, is it consistent with that objective standards of scripture? That's the question. So, for example, when you say son of God.

14:13

The trinity is extremely complex to understand. Even most members of your faith can't even get it. Let me ask you a question. Can you comprehend that God is all knowing and eternal?

14:23

Can you comprehend that? I don't know. I don't know. Not really. I don't know. Can you comprehend that God spoke and the universe with billions of galaxies?

14:32

Okay, there you go. Yeah. So, to say that, well, the trinity is incomprehensible,

14:38

I would say yes, because he's God, but it's, watch, apprehendable. Those are truths that you can grab hold of that are consistent.

14:45

Sure. So, one example. But there's truth. So. When you say Jesus is a son of God, you mean

14:50

Elohim, who was once a man who became a God, who had mommy gods and daddy gods before him, had sex with one of his wives to produce

14:59

Jesus and us in the preexistence. That's what you mean by son of God. And you need to repent for the context in which you state that.

15:06

Is it the truth? Is that wrong? It could be true. I don't. It is the truth. I'll show you. Let me show you. It is the truth. It is the truth. It is the truth.

15:11

I'll show you. Hey, listen. The context in which you state that, it's like, if that's true,

15:18

I mean, if it's true, it may be. It's true. Okay? It's true. You can look it up. No, I know. I know it's,

15:24

I know from our teachings, it is true. Yes. Okay? But to comprehend it, to comprehend that is like saying, like you said, can we comprehend that God's all -knowing?

15:34

He's existent forever. We can't, right? And what I'm saying to you on this point of mommy gods, daddy gods, all that, that's it.

15:42

It's not about comprehension. Do you know that I'm not talking about comprehension, but contradiction? It's not about comprehension, but contradiction.

15:49

No, because what I'm saying is, this is what I'm saying, Jeff, is that you or I, there's more than we can, there's more to the scriptures from a biblical standpoint than me or you or I could possibly, possibly, possibly ever say that we can understand.

16:07

Let me give you this one. I embrace that the scriptures have so much amazing truth that a creature like me with a three pound brain in my skull can never fully comprehend.

16:18

But again, my friend, we're not talking about comprehension, but contradiction. Like, what if I say, what if I, what if I walk down here?

16:25

Let me, let me finish. You have to use interpretation to state contradiction. Well, let me, let me just quote it. Let me just quote it. Right.

16:36

You disagree. Okay, no. Well, this is what

16:41

I, the only thing, the only thing I can say about that is it's, it's, it's beyond, it's beyond me.

16:48

It's beyond me. Contradiction, my friend. No. You've got to know that we're here because we love you.

16:53

And that text, listen, you can't say, I just don't comprehend it. You've got to say, my friend, yes, that's a contradiction.

16:59

And you've got to wrestle with it. I don't want to put you on the spot and have to give me an answer, but I'm saying you've got to wrestle with that.

17:06

Well, there, there's, there's obviously always things you're going to wrestle with, right? Well, how about the fact that God says that he's the only

17:13

God in the heavens above and on the earth below, and you don't believe that? Well, I do believe that.

17:19

You can't as a Mormon. But it's the same thing. Yes, I can. Okay. Because it's like this, it's like this. Don't you believe with Joseph that there are three gods of this earth and many billions upon billions upon billions of gods outside of this earth?

17:32

How do you explain, okay? Because, because we got to. Can you answer that question? No, I can't answer it. Because, because listen, unless we're on the same platform, right?

17:39

Yeah, right. Okay, so here's the difference. So I believe that God, Heavenly Father, is

17:50

Jesus Christ's Son. Okay. Wait, say that again. Could you? I think, I think, wait,

17:55

I think, I think you misstated that. Okay, so Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, they're not the same person. Right.

18:00

They're separate individuals. They're separate individuals and beings. Yeah, exactly. Right. Okay, so, so, so.

18:06

That contradicts John 1. It doesn't. It does. Well, it doesn't, how, how do we explain, okay, all the things.

18:13

So how do you explain then the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the

18:18

Father? How do you explain that? The, the, I'm going to give it to you right now. Without like throwing out some crazy. What you do know it does not mean is it does not mean that the

18:27

Father created Jesus a second God because the Bible teaches fundamentally long before you knew anything about Jesus that there was only one

18:37

God by nature. That's your interpretation. No, I'll give you the, I'll give you the quotations. Deuteronomy 4, 35 and 39.

18:44

He is God alone in the heavens above and on the earth below. Correct. Deuteronomy 6, 4. Hero Israel, Lord our

18:49

God, the Lord is one. Isaiah 43, 10. Before me there was no God formed. Neither shall there be after me. I am the first and I am the last.

18:56

Besides me there is no God. Correct. So what you know it doesn't mean is that the Father created Jesus sexually. Now, just because it's important, the word only begotten, the text, let's say

19:06

John 1, the monogamous theos, the unique and one of a kind God, Jesus, He has revealed the

19:13

Father. And when it talks about Christ as the only begotten of the Father, it doesn't mean in creation, it talks about His position,

19:20

His unique position. Here's the deal, here's the deal. I, if you get into all those things, you weave them all together, it's logical, right?

19:31

It's biblical. It's biblical and logical. And logical. Biblical and logical. Yes sir, yes sir. You take all those things, you weave it together, it's biblical, it's logical.

19:38

Yes sir. Okay, so, but to, to any normal individual who doesn't have years and years of study and understanding and studying of different languages and different texts and, and, and,

19:51

Oh listen, listen. Okay. And being able to build off of other philosophers' understanding of the, of the doctrines that you're stating, okay?

20:03

Do you think that any, any normal person would be able to come to that conclusion by themselves by reading the

20:09

Bible beyond? How about one? I mean, let's be, let's be. How about one? Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

20:14

Okay. When Jesus, listen real fast. Let me finish, I'll let you finish the thought, let me finish the thought. Okay, alright, alright. In Mark 12, the guy asked

20:21

Jesus, Master, what's the greatest commandment of law? He says, Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the

20:26

Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself. He says the two greatest commandments, all the law and prophets are built upon this.

20:33

What's the, what's the guy saying in response to Jesus saying, Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one? You know what he says?

20:40

He says essentially to Jesus, you're right, there is only one God. Who did?

20:46

The, the, the person questioning Jesus. Okay. I think it was a lawyer. Okay. So he asked Jesus, and Jesus quotes,

20:53

Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one, and how does he interpret it? He says, you're right, there is only one God.

20:58

That's not complicated, my friend. The fact that God says he's the only God and there's none before and none after. Okay, so, so then, so in those contexts, looking at those scriptures,

21:06

I agree, it's biblical and it's logical, okay? Okay. Now, this reader's also reading in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the

21:14

Son of God. Yep. He's the only begotten of the Father, that he prays to the Father. Yep, yep.

21:20

That, that his, that his will could be swallowed up in the Father. He submits himself to the Father's will.

21:25

He submits himself to the Father. Yep. Now the same guy, without all the things, you think he can come to that, your conclusion, before he'll come to the other conclusion.

21:33

How do you think Christianity started? That's how it happened. Christians passed, the

21:38

Word of God created the church. The Word of God formed the church. Okay?

21:43

And so when... No, no, no. Christ, Christ created the church. What I, no, you're missing, of course, but the point is, is that it was the revelation of the apostles and prophets and Jesus Christ that actually formed these communities.

21:56

They looked at the scriptures and said, this is who Jesus is. And what did the Christians come up with? There is only one

22:02

God. It is, listen, it's, it's the historical teaching of the church. For 2 ,000 years, there is only one

22:07

God. Christ formed a church when he was on earth. Yes, he did. And he called apostles and prophets. And what did he say? He called pastors.

22:13

What did he say, though? He said that the gates of hell would never prevail against the church. Well, that's correct. That's exactly what he said. Now, you disagree with that.

22:19

No, I don't. What's with the restoration? What, what is with the restoration? What's wrong? Jesus, Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church.

22:27

Okay, so... Joseph taught they did. Okay, so, so when we talk about that, hold on just a second.

22:33

Okay. Is he, uh, he works here?

22:45

Is he working here tonight? I assume. Well, I'm surprised he came to talk to you, because they usually don't let him. They're going to call him away, probably.

22:52

He, uh, he was walking by, he... We're still live. Okay, yeah, we're still live, yeah. Okay. Hey, guys, pray for this guy right now.

23:01

He had kind of a funny look on his face, and I'm like, I didn't know what he was going to do or what he was going to say.

23:07

I could tell it looked like he was working anyway. Yeah, yeah. I was hoping he wasn't pulling something.

23:13

But anyways, yeah, he started talking. I mean, he's really nice and really smart and getting fired up, as you can see. Okay, sorry.

23:21

That's all right. Are you going to get in trouble for talking to us? No, not at all. Okay. Good. My wife might be after me.

23:28

Are you working here tonight, or you're here with family? Uh, I'm here with family. Okay. My wife's over there.

23:33

Okay. Well, I'm glad, I really am honored you're talking to us. So, okay, so, the, the thing is, is, so we're on, like, these different platforms, because obviously your understanding of God and my understanding of God are, like, they couldn't be farther apart from each other, almost.

23:48

But mine's based on the scriptures. So are mine. But I've given you scriptures that fundamentally contradict your most essential beliefs.

23:55

Yeah, but I give you scriptures that I believe are... You haven't given, you haven't given one.

24:01

What do you mean I haven't given you one? You haven't given me one scripture that contradicts my view as a Christian. Okay, John chapter 17, where Christ, uh...

24:08

Believe it 100%. I believe it 100%. Okay. But, but I've given you scriptures that deny your fundamental belief system.

24:14

You believe you're going to become a god one day. Yes, I think that, I think, I think it's possible according to faith and grace and all the things that...

24:24

And your works. And works. And God says you'll never make it. Yeah, I know, I know. In Romans, it's taught very clearly.

24:31

We don't, we don't, we don't get... No, no, no, that's a different point. I'd love to get to that. But I mean in terms of you becoming a god one day.

24:37

God says he's the first, the last. And he says that there's none formed before him or after him. You're not going to make it.

24:43

Let me ask you something, Kate. Kate, you keep going to that scripture, right?

24:50

Okay. Because it's important for you to hear. I know it's important. I hear it. I know it. Okay. Okay? But how can you reject all the other, all the, all the evidence that shows that God and Jesus Christ are different?

25:01

I believe that. Do you see, this is the thing once again. I think that Mormons are often taught that Christians believe that Jesus is the

25:06

Father. We believe they are different, distinct persons. Persons. But they're the same being.

25:13

They share the one being of God. Right. A text that would show you to that would be John 1. Hebrews chapter 1 says the same thing.

25:20

That, that in my opinion is not logical. The three persons share the one essence or being of God.

25:27

Yeah, and first of all, that is not biblical because you... Well, first of all, I quoted it to you. Listen, you can't go in the

25:33

Bible and have that spelled out. John 1. Well.

25:38

I gave it to you already. Hebrews chapter 1. No. Philippians chapter 2. Colossians chapter 1, verses 16 and on.

25:44

It says that Christ, for by Him were all things created in the heavens and on the earth, whether they're visible or invisible, thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities, all things created by Jesus.

25:56

So how do you... How, listen. How do you explain... That fundamentally denies your belief by who Jesus is. How do you explain the only begotten of the Father?

26:01

Okay, Jesus... Because, because that's, that's different. It speaks, it speaks to His... Listen, if that, if that's the case, so if...

26:09

Well, okay, go ahead. Okay. So when the Bible speaks of, say, even,

26:15

I'll give you another one. Firstborn. Hey, the Bible calls Jesus firstborn. How can He not be the firstborn of the Father?

26:20

The word firstborn is in the same context in Colossians 1. In a very Jewish context, firstborn is prototokos.

26:28

It's the one who has the preeminence. He's the heir. It's very Jewish thinking. Now Mormons will look at that and say, see, firstborn.

26:34

But in Paul's Jewish context, calling Jesus the firstborn is He is the heir of all things. But He says in that same text,

26:40

He created everything in existence, all things. He created Himself. He created... No, not Himself.

26:46

He's God. God is the uncreated, eternal God. So how could He be the firstborn? Again, the word there, I'm saying...

26:51

I'm saying it's not logical. No, what I'm saying is that someone leaps onto a word like firstborn and says, see, He must have been created. When Jesus would deny that, the apostles deny that, they say it in the very text where it calls

27:00

Him firstborn, that He's the creator of everything in existence. The eternal God. Do you see?

27:06

So when someone says... So... Look, the word begotten is there. It does not mean created. It does not mean created in terms of the father had a sexual relationship with one of his wives to produce

27:17

Jesus. I think... John 1... I don't think you or I belong talking about that.

27:24

John... It's not... Your apostles and prophets have talked about it openly. It's in Mormon doctrine.

27:29

I know it is. Bruce R. McConkie. Yes, I know. Okay. So if they can talk about it, we can talk about it.

27:34

Every single day. I mean, the Mormon prophets and apostles... I'm just saying for you who... I know you know a lot about, obviously, about Mormon doctrine, but you don't at the same time.

27:47

Can I ask you to just... I'd like to hear you on this. I don't want you to feel like you have to simply defend yourself right now and provide an answer.

27:58

I want to ask you a sincere question as a fellow human being. Okay. We have to all come to grips with the fact, and I do too, that we're fallible human beings and we err.

28:09

Right. Okay? Absolutely. We have sometimes corrupt thinking. That we can... We sin. That we can agree on completely.

28:16

And I know that you and I would both agree. Right. We agree on that. Right. We both agree that there are people out there who think that they're following the truth and they're following a lie.

28:24

I agree with that. Okay. We can both be a hundred percent agreed on something. Would you consider something, and you don't have to answer me right now.

28:30

I'm not trying to beat you up with this. Would you at least agree with the fact that it's possible that these texts

28:39

I've given to you tonight actually say what they say and that Joseph has led you after a different Christ and different gospel?

28:45

Is it possible that you, as zealous as you are, as faithful as you are as a Mormon, is it possible that you've been led astray, like many of the people in the

28:54

Bible, the Bible even speaks about? So... Well, can you answer, is it possible in your mind?

29:02

It's absolutely, a hundred percent possible, right? So if we flipped it... Yes. Okay. Is it possible, because I'm fallible, you're most likely fallible...

29:11

I am fallible. Most likely. You give me too much credit. You're most likely fallible, right? Extra fallible. Yeah, yeah.

29:16

So we're all fallible. Right. Okay. That's on the board, okay. Is it possible that your understandings, because you're fallible, could be incorrect as well?

29:27

It is possible that I could be in error. Here's how I know I'm not. Because when my beliefs line up with the objective testimony of the

29:37

Word of God, that's how I know with certainty that I'm not wrong. Okay, so this is what I'm going to say.

29:43

Mine do too. But they don't. I've already shown you. But I've shown you tonight with a few texts that God disagrees with your fundamental beliefs about Him.

29:57

He says He's the only one in heaven and earth. Real fast. Let's focus on that point. Then what are you and I to God? What's our relationship to God, mine and yours?

30:05

Image of God, creatures made to worship Him. So we're not His children. We are His children by adoption.

30:12

Okay, are we His children? Not everybody. John 1 says that.

30:18

Only those who receive Him have the right to be called children of God. That's their adoption. What did Paul teach in Romans?

30:24

That we receive adoption through faith in Jesus Christ. We're children of God by adoption. He didn't use the word adoption.

30:31

He actually does use the word adoption. In Romans? I believe, yes, it's in Romans, yes. Our spirits cry out, yes, adoption as sons.

30:39

Yes, Romans 8. Romans 8. Is it Romans 6?

30:44

Yes, he teaches that we are the, we are the, we are. Romans 6 is about our union with Christ in His death and resurrection.

30:59

Yeah, it is Romans 8. Well, in the, in the, I don't think he uses adoption in 8.

31:06

It is 8. He says that our adoption as sons, that the whole creation itself groans in eager anticipation for the revelation.

31:14

Are you talking about the, are you talking about the, are you guys reading from the

31:19

King James? Yes, sir. All right, 8 .15. Wait a minute, that's 7, here's 8.

31:31

Sorry about that. Oh, for you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear, but you have received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry,

31:41

Abba, Father. You have received the spirit of it, of adoption, whereby.

31:50

And in John 1 it says. No, right here in Romans it says that we are. He's talking to the church.

31:57

Right, he says we are the children of God and that we're. Heirs. We're heirs.

32:03

Yep. We're heirs with Christ. Yep. Correct? Right. So, but your interpretation would say that we're not the children of God, that we're adopted.

32:13

We're adopted as adopted and not everyone is a child of God. Well. Only those who receive

32:19

Him have the right to be called children of God. That's what John 1 says. You need to hang out a lot in John 1.

32:25

A lot. Listen, listen. Paul taught that we're the children of God and we're heirs.

32:32

Through adoption. Well, I. Brought out of death. Well, yeah. Brought out of death.

32:38

Here you go. All right. You can use it as much as you need. So, so here. So, you're saying.

32:43

This is, this is the thing is. So, you're saying we're not, we're, we're not children of God. We're not a spiritual offspring is what you're saying.

32:50

That we're, we're creatures. We're created by. By. You're saying we're created by Christ. We're, we were created by Jesus Christ, which is also

32:58

God is basically what you're saying. Jesus is God and He created us. Yes. And the Bible teaches that we're in the image of God.

33:05

And it teaches that. Did you know, you know this. You've got to know this. That many of the early, early

33:12

Christians believed. That. We were children of God and had the potential.

33:20

No, no. The early church fathers never. That we can become gods. They taught that God was.

33:27

Every, every church father believed that God was without beginning. Without beginning. They all fundamentally believed that.

33:33

That's, that's. No church father. No church. I can get you several. No, no, no, no. I can get you several references. You can, you can most certainly.

33:39

I can get you a lot of references. You can most certainly get references pulled out of context. No, no. Absolutely. It's, it's, it's clear.

33:46

I mean, it's a great debate. I'd encourage you to listen to it. It's between Martin Tanner and Dr. James White. I've. On this very issue.

33:52

And you'll see in that very debate, Tanner is, it's demonstrated that Tanner oftentimes has probably never even read the context he was pulling from.

33:59

Because when it is quoted in full, you see that the church fathers never taught that God had a beginning. They never taught that God was created.

34:05

And anytime a church father spoke about a union with a divine nature in ours, it had to do with regeneration and new life.

34:14

Not becoming a god one day. No Christian has ever believed that you can become a god by nature.

34:20

Why? Because the Bible teaches that there were no gods formed before God, none after him.

34:25

Can you just do this? I've tried to answer kind of your query. What would you say to God?

34:33

When you say, I believe as a faithful Mormon that through the grace of God and faith in my works, I have the potential to work through it to exaltation to become a god on my own planet.

34:43

When God says in his word, long before Joseph ever came with this revelation, he says, I am the first and I am the last.

34:53

Besides me there is no god that he doesn't even know of another god. What would you say?

34:59

I'm saying I can't understand it. Could it just be a contradiction? Could your beliefs just be contradicting

35:07

God's? But I can't contradict all the other evidence that indicate that we're children of God, that Jesus Christ is the son of God.

35:14

We are children of God through faith in Jesus Christ, but we're not literal offspring of Elohim and one of his wives.

35:19

That's your interpretation and that's where I feel you need to repent. I believe, Jeff, I believe that you take too much liberty in interpreting these doctrines.

35:29

Have you noticed that the person having the liberty tonight has been you? When I quote a text to you and I just let it hang there, you say, well, we don't know and maybe it could mean this.

35:38

No, I say I don't know. Right. I don't say we don't know. Okay, you say, forgive me, you say I don't know and I just can't comprehend it and you've given all kinds of really interesting interpretations on top of text that very clearly, very vividly say that he is the only

35:53

God and you're never going to become a god. I would say this, you called me to repent of one thing tonight and that's in terms of even talking real fast.

36:00

I would just want you to hear this. Just let me hear this. I want you to hear this one thing. After you hear that, I'll say it.

36:05

Okay, and I want to listen to you. I would want you to hear this, that you need to hear the call of the gospel of repentance from all your sin to trust in the true and living

36:17

Christ. I want you to hear that tonight. Okay, well, I reject that. I know.

36:23

Without God opening your eyes, I believe that you would. Here's the deal. Well, I don't reject that,

36:29

Craig, because I don't reject it, but I believe you're casting improper judgment.

36:39

I'm just giving you the message. That's the call of the gospel. Repent and believe the gospel. But you believe in a different Christ.

36:46

No, that's incorrect. I've demonstrated it. I reject that completely. So you believe that Christ created everything?

36:53

I believe that Christ is the son of God. Did he create everything?

37:00

He created. That's hard for me to answer because I believe it's beyond my comprehension.

37:10

What about Colossians 1? Is that beyond your comprehension where it says that he created everything in existence, visible or invisible, on heaven or on earth, everything, all things?

37:20

He says all things. Jeff, you brought up this earlier. You brought up, can you comprehend that God's existed forever that he's all -powerful?

37:30

That's an attribute that's incomprehensible. Right. Okay. So is it possible that what you're stating right now is to me and you possibly, to you, specifically you and me, but is it possible that that creation that you discuss, there's more to it than you understand?

37:52

Well, I would say there's definitely aspects of creation that would have to be more than I can understand as a creature.

37:57

However, whether or not, let me finish and answer your question.

38:03

Whether or not Jesus Christ is the brother of Lucifer or the creator of Lucifer is not an issue of comprehensibility.

38:11

That's an issue of in terms of the God that we worship and what did he do.

38:17

Now, I believe Jesus created everything. Well, it matters. You've been fighting over words all night. Now, I would say address that.

38:25

Address the fact that Colossians says that Jesus created everything, all things in heaven and on earth, all things created by him.

38:32

You don't believe that. Address, address. Can you answer it? I can't answer that.

38:37

I can't answer it. Would you meditate tonight without somebody poking you or standing above you? Would you meditate on just that point?

38:44

Is that a Christian gave you the word of God and it so fundamentally militates against your position.

38:51

No, no, it doesn't. It does. That's a different God. I reject it. Okay. Do you reject?

38:57

I'm telling you this right now, Jeff. Okay. Please don't offend me in this, okay? Okay. Okay. The Jesus that you believe in is the same

39:05

Jesus I believe in, okay? And I know your belief that we have but it's the same man, it's the same

39:14

God, it's the same individual that suffered in Gethsemane, who was hung on the cross and who raised on the third day.

39:21

That's the same Christ I believe in. So don't tell me that I don't believe in that Christ, okay?

39:27

But you've expressed more than that. You've expressed more than that. No, you've expressed more than that. No, you have. No, you have.

39:33

You've said that you do believe that. You believe that Heavenly Father with his wives produced Jesus. No, you said that.

39:39

No, you said that. Would you like me to get the quotation where Mormon prophets and apostles have taught that? No, but you're the one that said it.

39:45

I didn't bring it up once. But you believe it, right? I do believe it. Is that the Mormon Jesus? It is.

39:50

Okay, thank you. So that's a different Christ. Okay. So you've already demonstrated that you would say to the

39:56

Muslim— This is the point. Don't twist words and— I'm not. Yes, you are. How? Because you're saying that the—because

40:03

I believe in the Christ, the Garden of Gethsemane, who hung on the cross, Son of God, Savior of the world—

40:10

Son of God means? The Son of Elohim. Literal? With one of his goddess mothers?

40:16

No, don't say that. But that's what Mormonism teaches. I didn't say that. But that's what Mormonism teaches. But I'm not saying—I'm not talking about—

40:22

So listen, listen. What if I told you I was Mormon? What if I told you that I'm actually Mormon? I wouldn't talk about it. Okay, ready?

40:28

Let's try this as a thought experiment. Because you're trying to say, let's just give the minimal effort required to take a definition.

40:34

So let me try. Let me finish. I'll let you finish. Before you start. Before you start. Listen. We're on plus and minus addition, subtraction.

40:44

No. Very simple stuff here. No, no, no. Listen. Listen to my analogy, okay? Right? Okay. So God and Heavenly Mothers and that's like the deepest—

40:53

Nope. Basic Mormon doctrine. No. It really is basic Mormon. Exaltation is basic Mormon doctrine.

40:59

Jeff. Okay? Our prophets and apostles don't— every six months when we have a general conference, nobody talks about it.

41:08

This is what we talk about. We talk about faith and repentance and baptism. Sure you do. And then—

41:13

Wait, wait, wait. Listen. Listen. Jeff. Jeff. So don't manipulate and twist. I'm not manipulating. No, you're twisting.

41:19

I think the manipulation is happening on your side because what you don't want to do— What you don't want to do is face the facts that Mormonism teaches these things about God and Jesus Christ.

41:29

I think it's— And when I bring it up, you don't want to address it. No. I'm happy to address it, but—

41:35

No, I'm not happy to address it because here's the point. I'm working on faith, repentance, and baptism. That's where I'm at.

41:41

So does that make sense? Faith in who? Jesus Christ. Which one? The one I believe in.

41:46

You know— The one that didn't die on a cross? The one that did die on a cross. Which one should I believe in? The one that didn't die on a cross or rise from the dead?

41:53

Should I believe in the Jesus of the Rosicrucians? I understand— The Jesus of the Christian scientists who's just the divine ideal of God?

41:59

I understand— Do I believe the Jesus of Jehovah's Witnesses who is Michael the Archangel, the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God? I understand your point.

42:04

Which Jesus? I understand your point. Okay. But I disagree with it. 2 Corinthians 11.

42:11

Just remember that. Paul says in the first century that he's worried about them, that they'll be deceived by Satan to follow another

42:19

Jesus. That's in the first century. Is it possible that that's still true today?

42:28

That in the 19th century, there was an American prophet named Joseph Smith who claimed to have a revelation from God.

42:34

Absolutely. And he led you after a different Christ. Absolutely. Okay. Will you do this? Because we've had a great conversation.

42:40

I'm going to— Do you have a pen? Not on me, no. My name is Jeff. Yeah. This is a way to get a hold of me.

42:47

I will buy you dinner, and we can hang out and continue this conversation if you want.

42:52

I know your wife's over there waiting for you. She's right there. Okay. So here's the deal. Okay. Okay. I would ask you, because I believe that you are—

43:16

I think it's offensive for you to call me not a

43:22

Christian. Is it offensive for Paul to condemn false prophets in the

43:28

New Testament? He said that they weren't Christians. How about John? 2 John 9.

43:33

John says to the Gnostics, who were using Christian language, just like you and me, and they denied

43:39

Jesus. God became flesh. And he says that anybody teaching that doesn't know

43:45

Christ. They don't know Him. And they denied what? They denied one thing, that He actually took on flesh.

43:50

They thought the material world was evil. And they said that God would do that? No way. Jesus, He's the

43:56

Messiah. Yeah, but He didn't take on flesh. And John says, those people, don't even let them into your church.

44:02

And they don't know God. They don't know Him. Now they use the Christian language, all that stuff, but they denied fundamental things about who

44:10

Jesus was. Yeah. Was He being offensive? And so do you from our interpretation of the

44:16

Scriptures. Can I say something? So Jeff, so equally to you, to, yeah, just one second.

44:22

But the Word of God came before Joseph's Revelation. What? This isn't Biblical.

44:28

I'm sorry, I misinterpreted what you meant in terms of, I disagree with your Scriptures. No, no, no. Okay, I'm sorry. No, no, no.

44:33

My point being, is your interpretation of the Scriptures. Just read it.

44:39

This is your interpretation. I've just read it. Numerous times tonight, I've just read it, and you've said, well, I just don't,

44:44

I don't, it's incomprehensible. It is. And I've just quoted it to you. Are you saying you understand it as fully?

44:50

Isaiah 43, 10, Before me there was no God formed, Are you telling me, are you telling me, Jeff, you understand that completely and of all its power and glory.

44:57

That wasn't the point, that wasn't the point we were just making. Well, that's the point I'm making now. Okay, okay, now you're making that point.

45:03

I was making the point in terms of the Word of God tonight, I've just quoted it.

45:08

And just through the quoting of God's Word, you feel the antithesis. You feel that what

45:15

I'm saying to you disagrees with your fundamental beliefs about God when I just quote it.

45:20

Yeah, but, but, but, but here's, I believe your interpretation of what you're quoting, of what you're just quoting.

45:30

Give me, give me, give me another interpretation in context of Isaiah 43, 10. Before me there was no

45:37

God formed, neither shall it be after me. I'm not, I can't interpretate it. I mean, the only thing

45:43

I could say is, is that I just can't interpretate it, I guess. My friend, can you, can you, let me ask you, are there, are there scriptures that you cannot interpretate?

45:54

Oh, I, I, there, there are scriptures and scripture, scriptures in the Bible that I'm working on understanding. Yeah. Okay.

46:00

Here's, here's how, watch, here's, can I say this? Here's how. I'm, I'm trying to understand it in the light of God's Okay.

46:12

So that's, that's fair. So would you remember this? Isaiah chapters 40 through 46.

46:18

No one's standing above you. No one's standing there next to you, talking to you. Just go read it. Just go read it.

46:24

Whoa. That's all. Well, I'm happy to read it. Okay. Isaiah 40 through 46. And I've read it.

46:29

Those chapters. Okay. And would you do this? In an honest moment between you and God, would you read that and ask

46:35

God, God show me the truth and, and do this. Let the text speak for itself.

46:41

I'm not asking you to look for a feeling. I'm asking you to, because our feelings can deceive ourselves. Wait a minute.

46:46

Wait a minute. Look for what the text says. So, okay. How, according to the scriptures, the biblical scriptures.

46:59

Yeah. How did Christ teach his apostles to know the way? He says, Father, sanctify them.

47:04

The same text you went to. John 17, 17. Father, sanctify them in your truth. Thy word is truth.

47:10

How did Jesus want us to be set apart and sanctified by God's truth? His word is truth.

47:17

That's what God intends. So, so, yes. The Bereans, you know who the

47:23

Bereans were? No. So they were, they were commended because they sought the scriptures to see if the things were so.

47:32

Paul came to them and was preaching and it says they were more noble minded than the ones in Thessalonica because when he preached to them, they actually received what he said and they searched the scriptures to see if what he was saying was so.

47:44

So, I don't agree with searching the scriptures, right? You do? I do not. You don't agree with searching the scriptures?

47:50

I agree with searching the scriptures. I don't disagree with not searching the scriptures. I think I said that right. Okay, gotcha.

47:56

Yeah, yeah. I thought you meant that. I was like, wait, okay. I agree with searching the scriptures. Good. All Mormons are going to agree with that.

48:03

I'm glad. That's good common ground. Right, that's good common ground. So, but,

48:10

I also believe that for us to search the scriptures and not rely upon the

48:17

Holy Ghost for his help. We should. We have to. We should. There's no,

48:23

I mean, otherwise, otherwise, error isn't like going to happen for sure.

48:30

Would you agree? Have you ever run into somebody that says that they're walking with Christ and then living in sin and they say, oh,

48:37

I have it right with Jesus. I feel good about it. Right, for sure. We can't trust our feelings. Well, we have to though.

48:43

No, you can't. No, you're wrong. Here's the thing. Okay, okay, listen. Are there people who feel very strongly that they're not really a male, they're a female and they cut their genitalia off because they feel strongly that they're a female?

48:56

Listen, listen, I get your point, right? Can they trust their feelings? Well, we have to trust their feelings.

49:02

Would you tell them to trust their feelings? Well, that's, let's talk about this.

49:08

Hold on, no, you know, this is important. You like the scriptures. I know I do. But you know the point we're getting to right now.

49:14

Let's go to Matthew. Exactly, you have to trust the objective revelation of God, not your feelings. Well, you can err trying to read the

49:21

Bible. Sure, and how do you know you're an error? Because you don't have the Spirit. No, no, no, no, no. How do you know you're an error?

49:27

How do you tell the Muslim that came to you and told you that Jesus died and died on a cross? How would you tell him?

49:33

Hi, I'm Jeff. Here's your husband. He's amazing. I bet you you would do what

49:39

I would do. I bet you would because he tells you, watch, just to get the point across, he tells you Jesus didn't die on a cross and rise from the dead.

49:47

He did not. Would you say, hey, you just got to feel it, bro, or would you say go to the

49:53

Bible? You would have to go to the Bible. Well, let's just go to the scriptures. We like the scriptures. Amen.

49:59

We're talking about the scriptures and our feelings. The scripture does tell us about our feelings. In some regards, we can't trust it because it says our heart is wicked above all things who can know it.

50:09

That's exactly right. Our reasoning faculties are corrupted by sin. okay, let's, we can't just like just zone in only on the scriptures because there's other scriptures, right?

50:21

See, that's the problem. Let's go to Matthew. Let's go to Matthew because we've got to look at all the scriptures in their totality.

50:28

Amen. That's called tota scriptura. Yes, yes. So listen, in Matthew, Jesus comes to his father and says,

50:35

Hey, what are the people saying about me? And they start saying, Well, some say they're John the Baptist, Jeremiah, Elias.

50:40

And he says, Who say you that I am? And they say, and Simon Peter says,

50:46

Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And what was Jesus Christ replied? Blessed are you. He said,

50:51

Blessed are thou, Simon Bar -Jonah. He said, For flesh and blood is not revealed to none to thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

50:57

Yeah. So what's unique about that? The revelation of God that opens our eyes to see the truth.

51:02

So Peter, okay. So Peter is walking and talking with Christ.

51:08

He's witnessing miracles. This is what happens. He says,

51:14

He says, Blessed are thou, Simon Bar -Jonah. Because flesh and blood didn't. Right. Right.

51:19

Not flesh and blood, but my Father. Okay. So who revealed it to him? The Father. Okay. Yes. How?

51:26

Through his grace. Like, through his feelings? Oh, wait. Hold on now. No, no, no.

51:31

No, no, no. Hold on. Now I see where you're going with that. That's a strange thing to import into that text that it was feelings that Peter had there.

51:39

Okay. So how did he get it? Here's how. The same way Jesus says in John chapter 6. He says,

51:45

I come down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of him who sent me, that of all that he has given to me, I should lose nothing but raise it up to the last day.

51:52

And he says, No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up.

51:58

God has to be the one who acts to open our eyes to truth, to bring us to the truth. I wasn't, by the way, maybe you misunderstood.

52:05

I wasn't poo -pooing emotions and feelings with God. I said that you have to test all things.

52:12

Yeah, I agree with that. Test the spirits. How do you test it? Through the scriptures. Because, here's the answer, just so you understand my perspective so you're not aiming in the wrong direction.

52:20

The Bible says in 2 Timothy 3 .16 that all scripture is breathed out by God. Peter says that holy men of God spoke as they were carried along by the

52:29

Holy Spirit. So, the scriptures are God's breathed out revelation. It comes from the

52:34

Spirit of God Himself. Here's the point. Whatever feeling you have, if you want to know if it's truly from the

52:40

Spirit of God, you've got to go to what the Spirit of God already revealed. And if your feeling is different...

52:47

then how do you talk to the Romans and the Galatians and all these people? They didn't have a Bible. So...

52:53

They did have a Bible. Okay, they had some letters. No, hold on, they had... They did not have the Bible like me and you.

52:58

Wait a second. They did not have the Bible like me and you have it. No, no, no, no. The canon wasn't finished until about 70 AD, around there, before the fall of the

53:05

Temple. Right. Okay, but what did they have? Paul says in 2 Timothy 3 to Timothy, he says that since he was a child, he's known the scriptures which are able to make him wise for salvation.

53:16

Which scriptures? The Old Testament scriptures. That they were able to make him wise for salvation.

53:21

Yeah, but everyone didn't have an Old Testament in their living room. Oh, I know that. Of course, we have a huge blessing now.

53:26

But hold on, they did have it laid up in the Temple. They did know what the scriptures were. The Jews appealed to them all the time. They read it in synagogue.

53:32

They knew the Word of God. They knew what it was. But they couldn't go and grab it and look at it. And they knew that in order to know...

53:38

Hold on, this gets to a really important point. You've got to capture this. They knew that in order to know if someone's really a prophet, that prophet had to speak in accordance with God's previous revelation.

53:50

Two texts, Deuteronomy 13, 1 through 4, real fast. If a prophet comes, the

53:57

Holy Spirit was poured out. But real fast, the Old Testament revelation makes clear that if a prophet doesn't speak according to God's Word, they have no light in them,

54:04

Isaiah 8, 20. The Holy Spirit of God was poured out on God's people. I believe that the Holy Spirit of God indwells me and in Him.

54:11

The Holy Spirit of God is active, but the Holy Spirit of God will never contradict what He already said. Correct.

54:17

Agreed. Good. Agreed. That's all we need to stand on. Okay. Would you take that one admission and agreement, and would you read

54:26

Isaiah chapters 40 through 46 and ask, ask if your feelings about God and Joseph's revelation match

54:33

Isaiah 40 through 46. I will not because... You won't do it? Well, I won't do that because I disagree.

54:43

I asked you to read it by yourself before God. Restate what you're asking me to do.

54:48

Okay. I'm asking you... Because I'm thinking... To see if your emotions and your feelings and Joseph's teachings actually match what

54:55

God says in Isaiah chapters 40 through 46 about Himself. Well...

55:02

Why are you nervous about that? I'm not nervous at all. At all. At all. Because if you asked me that, I'd say, yep, I'll test it.

55:08

No, I'm happy to test it. Okay. All right. I guess my immediate concern is that when

55:18

I... I cannot reconcile... So there's other beliefs that I have, like Jesus Christ being a separate individual, the

55:27

Son of God, the only... Separate being. Being, correct. Different God. Right. Different God, separate being, correct.

55:35

So I believe doctrinally that is well supported biblically, okay? By the scriptures.

55:41

By the scriptures. Even though Isaiah 43... Yes... 44...

55:46

Yeah, because I'm not looking at Isaiah, because... I know. Right? I'm looking at the other scriptures. What other scriptures say that Jesus Christ is a created being and say that He's one

55:56

God among many? Well, we know that in Genesis it says, let us go down there.

56:01

We know that. Let us create man. God speaking as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Let us create man in our what image, singular?

56:08

Listen. Well, I disagree with it. Because look at all the other things about Jesus Christ.

56:16

Baptism... Uh -huh. I've already explained that. Jesus became a man. That's your interpretation. No, I explained God became a man.

56:22

It's not a matter of interpretation. Do you disagree with that? That... God became a man. Took on flesh.

56:27

Right. He's a different person than the Father. Then what happened to Him after He was resurrected? He was resurrected in the same physical body and He ascended and seated.

56:34

And now He's still a physical human being like me and you. He's resurrected in His glorified body. Like me and you as a physical body.

56:40

Does He still have His physical body? Of course. Okay. Yes. But does that make Him of a different nature than the

56:46

Father? No. They are the same nature. They always have been. Jesus took on flesh.

56:52

He didn't abandon being God. He is the God -man. That's what Philippians 2 says. No, no.

56:58

That's what John chapter 1 says. I reject it all. You reject God becoming a man? No. God...

57:03

Jesus Christ... Yeah. You know, obviously... Yeah, you know what I believe.

57:09

So don't... don't play word games. I'm not playing word games. I'm asking you to... You know what I believe. I'm asking you to define what you believe so we can interact with the

57:17

Scriptures. I want to just point out to you. Um... Okay. Isaiah...

57:22

The texts that we've done when I've given them to you... So, listen. If we look at... If we look at the Scriptures that you say, okay?

57:27

Yes. I agree. It's logical. Okay? But my point is being that our minds...

57:35

There's more than we can understand there. What if it's just a contradiction? Uh... What if it's just a contradiction?

57:41

Like the guy I brought up earlier. Remember the example I gave you? I gave the wild example. The guy says, I believe Jesus says to beat my neighbor.

57:47

Would you... Would you accept from him him saying it's incomprehensible and we just don't know, bro? I would reject it. I would reject it.

57:53

Why? There's too much evidence against it. Like what? Where's the evidence? Where's the evidence?

57:59

He says, Jesus says to beat my neighbor. No, there's a lot of biblical text showing that that's not true. So there is the perspicuity of Scripture.

58:06

There is... Scriptures are clear. Yeah, but that is a deep Scripture. You've got to admit that's a deep Scripture. That there's only one

58:11

God? Yes. That's deep, yeah. There is only one God. No, that... It's a deep

58:17

Scripture. There's... It's a deep Scripture. That he's the first and last? That's very deep? Yeah, he's the first and last.

58:22

He doesn't know of any other gods? It's deep. Now Joseph says that there's a council of gods and you've got to learn to become gods yourselves the same way all the gods have done before you.

58:32

I know. So how is it deep when God says he doesn't know of any other gods and Joseph says that you've got to become one and there's a council?

58:38

Well, okay, because this, okay? If... My belief, which

58:44

I believe is very well biblical and logical...

58:50

But it's not. It contradicts. Listen, listen. It does... Well, it contradicts if we interpret the

58:56

Scripture the way you interpret it. I just read it. Well, the way you read it. Okay. Okay? Do you want a different tone?

59:03

Well, Jeff, so listen. I don't... I'm just saying I think there's more to it.

59:10

That's my point. Can I just say two quick things about the Scriptures? So there's definitely some things we talked about.

59:17

Some of them that are incomprehensible but there are some things that God definitely wanted us to know.

59:22

He used the Holy Spirit to carry men along to write the Scriptures and we've been in much more than than one passage.

59:30

We've been in the Old and New Testament. Jesus said that the most important command is that there's one

59:35

God. Carried on from there, you know, the gold and the silver rule. But that's part of the Shema, the prayer that there's one

59:42

God. So it's almost if you rethink your golden rule the very top of it is that there's one

59:47

God. It's so important that Jesus said it's the most important thing. So there's things that are deep but there are things that God really wants you to know.

59:54

Fundamentals. So clearly. And here's the thing that we can that I think we can't we won't disagree on.

01:00:03

There's one God meaning that Heavenly Father God. The Father of my spirit.

01:00:11

Okay? That I am a child of God. That He's my God and there's no other God from me to Him.

01:00:19

Joseph didn't believe that. He taught that there are three gods of this earth. The Father is

01:00:24

God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Three distinct persons He says. And three gods. That's right.

01:00:29

Right. So but my Heavenly Father Elohim Okay?

01:00:36

Yeah. He's my only God. The only one with whom we have to do. What's that? The only one with whom we have to do.

01:00:41

Right. Right. And the problem with that again is that the God of the Bible long before Joseph's revelation says that He doesn't know of any other gods

01:00:48

He's the only one. There's none before and there won't be any after. What about all the scriptures that talk about You can't just pass that up.

01:00:55

Yeah, but you can't pass up mine either. No, I answered it directly. What would you like me to answer? How do you explain the intercessory pair?

01:01:03

I happily explain it. Jesus as a man is speaking to the Father.

01:01:09

Jesus is not the Father. He submitted Himself as a man as a representative our substitute. He is the perfect man.

01:01:15

That's why He's the perfect Savior because He is God who is righteous and blameless and He is a sinless man.

01:01:23

That's through a Trinity belief. No, I just gave you basic Christian teaching. I can't imagine that you would disagree with anything

01:01:29

I just said. Absolutely. Do you think Jesus actually was sinful? No. Okay, that's my point

01:01:35

I was getting at that He was our perfect representative there before the Father as He's praying to the

01:01:41

Father He's praying as our representative. Don't you believe Jesus died for sinners? Yes. So you don't disagree that He was a representative.

01:01:47

So when you bring up the fact that Jesus is talking to the Father I'm actually stating things that are common ground but you seem to have a misunderstanding of what

01:01:56

Christians believe about the Trinity what the Bible teaches about the Trinity. There's only one God the

01:02:02

Father is God the Son is God the Holy Spirit is God there are not many gods there's only one God and the three persons according to the

01:02:09

Bible are co -equal, co -eternal. John 1 it says that He always existed alongside the

01:02:15

Father. So do you, I mean is that logical to you? It's biblical. Is it logical?

01:02:21

Of course. If it's biblical, it's logical. God doesn't contradict Himself. Can I admit something about it?

01:02:27

Yeah. That it's so unique it's an attribute of God it's so unique that there's nothing we can relate it to.

01:02:35

Yeah. I don't well I mean Some people use false analogies that we reject.

01:02:43

For example there's a water one which is kind of similar to what it sounded like you thought we believed and then we really clarified the

01:02:51

Trinity so you've gotten off that which is awesome. Well I just don't understand the

01:02:57

Trinity. Well would you do this? I know your wife is probably going to kill you when you get home. Would you do this?

01:03:04

My name is Jeff you know that. That's the way to get a hold of me. Do you live in town? Yeah. Do this man.

01:03:09

We've had a good talk good relationship I care for you. I don't have any desire I don't have any desire to like beat you up.

01:03:16

I will honestly take you out for lunch for dinner a cup of hot chocolate we can hang out and talk

01:03:21

I'll give you even resources you can give me resources I'll read your stuff you read my stuff. Okay.

01:03:27

I'll make a deal with you. What? I'll read whatever you give me you read what I give to you and let's have a relationship as a

01:03:35

Mormon as a Christian let's get together and let's have a relationship and communicate. But okay do you think if we can't come together like so so we there's the scripture

01:03:45

I'm not saying we're going to agree. Right. I'm just saying let's let's talk. And I'm not opposed to that so.

01:03:52

Okay. Alright Jeff. You have a way to get a hold of me okay? Alright great. Jeff. Alright man. God bless you. Thank you for giving your husband up to us.

01:03:59

He's an amazing man. Thank you. He's a rascal. By the way where do you live?

01:04:06

Do you live in Mesa? Yeah I live in Mesa. Okay. Right on. I live over there like Sossaman and Southern.

01:04:11

Good. Okay. Alright. That's pretty far east dude. You got a long drive home. Oh no. Thank you.

01:04:17

Thank you again. Alright. What's your name? Blake. Blake. Nice to meet you. Alright.

01:04:22

God bless you man. Thanks for talking to us man. Alright. My hands

01:04:29

I can't even go on my phone because my hands are frozen. I think we're still live. Oh. Are there really?

01:04:35

Oh hi we're still live. This is my daughter Saylor. Um. So Blake come on over.

01:04:40

Come on over. Just speak into the chest. Just be like be like this. So this is this is

01:04:46

Blake. This is Blake. He's a member of Apology of Church. Well except except he's trying.

01:04:52

He's trying. Um. So Blake's been out how many years is it now you've been out here with us? Um. What is it?

01:04:58

Two or three? Two. Yeah I was thinking I was thinking maybe three. Um. So he was here tonight actually before me.

01:05:04

Um. I don't know. Let's unpack for a minute. Um. I don't know. You talk.

01:05:09

What do you I mean what So. What's your experience like out here? What happened? So one thing about our new friend

01:05:15

Robert was he was really offended when you would bring up the Mormon doctrine.

01:05:20

Yeah. To him he was like I don't think that you can do that. You should repent of that. He was remember him saying that?

01:05:27

So right before him um. I I talked to quite a few

01:05:32

Mormons quite a few people who were Christians quite a few people who just were a question mark.

01:05:38

Yeah. Yeah. Um. This this one girl I encountered she was extremely knowledgeable and right to the point.

01:05:45

Infinity gods. Mm -hmm. Straight to the point. Yeah. She she had she had no shame in it.

01:05:51

Um. And it it cleared up a lot of the dust. It surprised me. Um. But that yeah that was just that was something that blew me away.

01:06:00

I hadn't seen somebody who knew so much Mm -hmm.

01:06:05

in a long time and wasn't afraid to step out ahead of me and go right. Infinity gods. That many gods.

01:06:11

I believe that. Right. And I'm like OK. I was getting to a lot but you're you're just going to go straight into it.

01:06:19

Well because also not all Mormons agree on that. You know we can't push them into a box and tell them.

01:06:24

Yeah. And a lot of Mormons haven't thought about it. And um. Yeah. But a Mormon doctor is pretty clear.

01:06:31

God's without number. So yeah. Well um. What would you say to Christians who are watching this right now and they're seeing this for the first time.

01:06:40

You know two two guys on the street talking to Mormons in a random conversation. What what you've been here for three years now so obviously you're still coming.

01:06:49

You believe it's useful. What would you say to Christians that are maybe for the first time starting to think oh maybe

01:06:54

I could do that. Maybe I could talk to Mormons. I mean is this is this so terrifying? Is this is this something that doesn't work?

01:07:02

Is it not useful? What would you say to them? Uh it's it's absolutely useful. I had an experience one time.

01:07:08

I I came out and I was the I was the only one.

01:07:14

And Where was where was I that night? Um I'm not sure maybe I got the day wrong. But Okay. Um I I was thinking to myself what's the point?

01:07:24

Because you encounter a lot of hostility uh nastiness uh sometimes people they do frivolous police calls all kinds of all kinds of things you run into Right.

01:07:33

that might even as even you've been doing it for a while that makes you think what's the point?

01:07:38

And so there there was a group there was a group of people walking by and the young man walked ahead of all of his friends and he said he he kind of put his his arm around me and he said uh he said are you a

01:07:49

Christian? And I was like yeah. And he kind of whisked me away from all of his friends and he said how do you know something is true? And I said okay well this kind of gets into philosophy and epistemology and he's kind of looking back at his friends and back at me and he's like right.

01:08:01

So you know and he's kind of like so get to the point and I'm like long story short the Bible I'm like that's

01:08:07

I'm like is that what you thought I was going to say? And he's like yeah that's what I thought you were going to say and we just we jumped right into it and so yeah there and you're by yourself yeah yeah and that's as I was

01:08:18

I'm sorry by the way that's okay and that's that's as I'm thinking what's what's the point after so much hostility and you you're not going to get to witness the fruit right on the sidewalk and that's you know that's not that's not what

01:08:29

I come here for and that's I know that's not that's not what you come here for Yeah planting seeds and some people get frustrated like why don't you just lay into them and like just crush them and just scream at us you know like repent sinner it's like because I need to give him truth and let

01:08:41

God do the work not me and then maybe even have the opportunity to have an extended conversation later where we can actually like let him have time to digest the word to work through these things so that he comes to Christ and that happens people like come here the first time they get a track we have a five minute conversation they go home and they spend three months in this thing in the scriptures and they end up coming to Christ sometimes it takes they have like I told him you need to go wrestle with God yeah you know and sometimes you just come out here to plant the seeds so they can go wrestle with God yeah and a lot of the time we're not the first one speaking to them yeah you don't know how

01:09:18

God has been working in that person's life and also the people who just kind they have like a light conversation they might not talk a lot you don't know what they're not saying and as far as like interacting with strangers on the sidewalk well

01:09:32

I can almost guarantee that everyone knows a Mormon even a friend or a family and they spend they spend time with them they may may have even tried to share the gospel with them at some point

01:09:42

I had a a co -worker he was from Hawaii and I found

01:09:50

I found out he was LDS he was from Utah well after Hawaii and then he found out that I was a

01:09:57

Christian diehard Christian like into apologetics all that jazz yeah and we both just kind of gave each other the look like we're gonna have to we're gonna have to do it one day and so the second time we met we talked about it and he goes alright this is what

01:10:13

I do he's like he's like when I meet a Christian a serious Christian and they want to talk to me about it

01:10:20

I set aside a few hours and I I talked with them and so you know they're they're ready yeah and they you know he was expecting it so I don't think it's unfair for us to expect to give our defense to anybody who asks and especially something is heartbreaking as that LDS faith which is a complete corruption a perversion of the scriptures yeah love you dude

01:10:57

I love you too alright man so it's been a long live stream right see the thing is that's cool about these is you never know what's gonna happen you never know it can end up being 20 minutes of questions it could be 2 hours of conversation with a

01:11:14

Mormon so it's pretty cool right so here's what you guys do pray for Apologia Church if you would pray that God would give you opportunities to reach

01:11:23

Latter Day Saints in your community if you want more go to ApologiaRadio .com

01:11:29

sign up for all access partner with our ministry to make this sort of thing possible what you don't see right now is the almost $10 ,000 of equipment that's making this possible and the 2 people that are working right now on making this possible

01:11:43

Marcus, Carmen you have our team out here you have the stuff that we give away all of that is made possible ultimately through the people that partner with us around the world so you sign up for all access it's just a $7 .95

01:11:58

donation you partner with our ministry you get access to all of our TV shows our after shows our

01:12:04

Apologia Academy and when you do that you make this possible and you actually get a lot of really really helpful content that will bless you and maybe people in your family and your friends and hold a party and hold a

01:12:17

Bible study weekly and go through the Apologia Academy and when you do that I think you'll be really encouraged by the content and I think you'll be encouraged by the knowledge that you're partnering with a ministry that God is using to put legs on the gospel around the world so thank you guys for watching love you guys thank you man for coming out tonight we were like sidekicks tonight that's awesome where was everybody tonight?

01:12:41

it was just me and you? I don't know and our camera crew? yeah last time there was like 15 people tonight it's just it's just Bilaki and me yeah my phone was blowing up I tried to let people know in advance usually it's buzzing in my pocket and I'm like afraid it's my wife and I'm like I don't know if I'm supposed to get that so usually if it's buzzing me for like 10 minutes straight

01:13:01

I'll usually answer it's my wife and it's usually like an emergency kind of so anyway so that's it for tonight we'll catch you guys next time

01:13:10

Marcus did I miss anything? alright god bless you guys Blake?