All-British Dividing Line

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White And welcome to the dividing line live from London, England I am hearing the sound over this connection.

It honestly sounds very much like a death metal band singer

As soon as the music started I thought somebody had hacked our system and recorded some

Satanic message over top of the beginning of the dividing line. I'm like, oh, this is going to be an interesting

It's been an interesting trip so far. There's no no two ways about it My luggage has not yet arrived and I arrived yesterday morning.

So It's been it's been quite the interesting experience so far no no two ways about it but It was one of those things where you

Did the first leg of your trip ends up being an hour longer than it was supposed to be because they routed us

I thought I got to visit all the United States on the way from Phoenix to Philadelphia down near Georgia and everything else to avoid the weather and so you get in late you go running over to the

International Gates and you're one of the last people on the on the plane and Who sits down in the row in front of you but two ladies with babies?

One of whom has an earache You're now going to try to sleep for eight hours on the trip over to London and that's not going to happen so and then you get there and you stand there at that that wonderful luggage machine and and As you see more and more people walking away you start feeling ever more lonely

Until the machine stops and your luggage isn't there but That's just sort of how things go and we did have an opportunity last night to Do a television program that honestly we really didn't know exactly what to expect

Until it started basically, and there were three of us on a panel a black pastor by the name of Edward Wama and Then dr.

Tony Lane from London School of Theology now LST. I think it's

London School of Theology It's one school theology because he gave LST in his email address He's written a number of books on Calvin and issues like that and then myself and I guess what had happened is there had been a segment where Predestination had been discussed on this program and or at least had come up And so there are so many questions about they decided to have a program to discuss it and That's what we did for the first hour and then dr.

Lane had to leave and so the pastor and I stayed for the second hour, so we did two hours and It was taking live emails as they were coming in and live phone calls and some of those phone calls were quite interesting one got into Israel and predestination and eschatology and It's going

If he had turned to us with the Israel question I was going to Pat the pastor on the back and say you haven't gotten to say quite as much as you'd like so far

How about you think you know? He didn't he didn't bother to throw it our direction. So it was it was quite the the interesting experience, but We had to travel through London to get to the location of the of the the television studios and At rush hour basically so it was it was quite the interesting the trip through London across the

Thames and We went right past the eye of London Which I didn't realize that goes around what once every half hour.

I believe it. You've never been to London it It's not fair to call it a

Ferris wheel But it's it's very similar except it moves very very slowly, and I understand they even do weddings as far as you can get done

You can do weddings Looking over the that's really close to Parliament and things like that So it's right downtown where you can do

Big Ben and stuff like that. Yeah, so so I saw that We were moving so slowly to traffic.

I was able to actually see it moving So I figured out that it went around at a certain point in time, but it's

Coming back though. We were able to take the m25 Which is the the route that basically circles all of all of London and it was raining and I Not quite figured out yet, whether I was in a car or a low -flying aircraft

Sometimes it partook of both But I was so tired that it really didn't matter one way or the other at that point in time and Because I had been traveling for No 18 hours or something like that and had had almost no sleep and didn't have any of my own clothes

I'm just hoping that that everything I said was in fact orthodox. I didn't hear anything Afterwards it gave well unfortunately.

Yes, I'm not necessarily certain that that would have been detected one way or the other but We had some friends there.

I think they might have noticed something outrageously Out of the way, but Anyway, we had a good time on the program and hopefully some folks were edified by that we had a

Jehovah's Witness call in and he called in because Another woman had called in and had raised the

Israel issue and had attacked London School of Theology for not had being all

Premillennial and she got cut off pretty quickly So the Jehovah's Witness called in to defend the idea of not being

Like well, how do we change this topic into something worthwhile and so I I launched into something about oh,

I forget how I I got into who Christ was and you know, I tried to transition into something as meaningful and witnessing to a

Jehovah's Witness and it was Just very interesting the number of calls that we got in the directions that they went it was it was quite quite interesting

I guess that according to people in the channel. I'm Sounding far too happy. I guess when you're in London, you're supposed to be straight -laced and And very glum and things like that.

So I'll try to be Less happy in the rest of the program as we possibly can but actually tomorrow

Lord willing a piece of luggage will be delivered here and that way

I'll be able to Utilize my computer again since I'm slowly killing the batteries that I had brought with me and I've learned a lesson

I'll put a few things that you need the first couple days in your carry -on Rather than the other one in case it does not arrive with you or who knows where it was sent

I Would be interesting to be able to track which airport should ended up going through if we just got lost in Philadelphia Going to Philadelphia, I'm sorry to Spidey geek but going to Philadelphia is a very frightening thing

So I guess we do have some birthdays in channel. I don't want to even try to sing.

Happy birthday to anyone but Rosie and I Don't think that Sheffy is actually a proper pronunciation of that term

But looks like we have some ladies who are up celebrating getting younger today in channel

So we say say happy birthday to to them as well Yes, we do have the all

British dividing line today. And if you if you would like to call in and request a British accent It must be a company with the proper donation

The ministry but eight seven seven seven five three three three four one I do not have that number

Well, there it is at the top of the channel thing. That's good. I do need that. No, no, don't no don't a no

Donation is large enough for that Can't be done

Well, now why is that rich? I mean, don't you know the field saying that's when and when in London do is the

Londoners do I? Had not I had not heard that Well, I know that the

Italians think they have copyright on that but it actually came from London so So but no,

I could use everyone. Let me just remind you Let me just remind you about a certain politician on this side of the pond who likes to you know changes

Yes, yes in order to to blend in with their audience

Dissuade you No, we can't discuss politics on the dividing line

That's I'm certain we'll get sued by someone if we do and I wouldn't know who you were talking about Oh, no one.

No one would ever do that. No, there's never Pretend that they were something that they were not

That would just never happen, but I did hear that the Suns had a game stolen from them

And that the big question right now in Phoenix is how San Antonio by Stern for and can we

Just in Phoenix. It's all over the sports Nationally the a lot of sports people are very very angry with with David Stern from what

I've seen It's it's it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in my life. Just unbelievable Dirty play, but anyway

Primary topics here. No, not exactly. Not exactly Well, do let me know

I will be able to see your little things start blinking here on my screen. Should someone Assist us with the program today at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

I have been taking some time to be looking about the the net and picked up some some interesting stories

I think one of the reasons that we closed the the window So it was that no one passing by would hear me talking about Islam here in London because I'm not certain that that's actually legal making sure

Now he's opening all the windows, okay Don't mind having a little breeze through there actually, but do that as it may

I was looking at the Christian Today article that was linked to by Jeff Downs on our on our website where it says

Christians in Karsada a town in northwest frontier province in Pakistan Have been warned that if they do not convert to Islam by today 17

May which for people outside the United States is an appropriate means of indicating

The date we would say May 17th, but we're sort of backwards the rest of the world They will face dire consequences and bomb explosions that's that's a

Obviously a difficult way of translating that in English Christians Christianity has learned the threats were made in a letter circulated last week to the town's

Christian population according to the all Pakistan minorities alliance and So here you have believers some of you may recall the program that we did

Interestingly enough interviewing a man that we called Peter who was here in London actually at the time

Man who was converted to Christ by the reading of the New Testament in a testament that had been left with his father there in the borderland between Pakistan and Afghanistan and it was the reading of that text that to convert him to Christ and those who are converted to Christ in that area face a tremendous difficulty and certainly, it's

One of the things I'll never forget about the interview with with Peter Was the statement that he made that he

Having only a familiarity with what the Quran teaches When he read the

New Testament to hear about to hear Christ's own teachings Was was a complete revelation to him and as I have since then become more and more familiar with the

Quran There's there's no no question whatsoever. I I heard a a quotation

I need to track down the actual source of quotation so I can properly Credit the man who said it.

He is a liberal Islamic scholar Which means he could not live in a number of nations on this earth when you think about that for a moment

I think that says something but a liberal Islamic scholar has said the

Jesus of the Quran is an argument not a person and He is an argument for the prophethood of Muhammad and I am reading through the

Quran again but this time I'm reading through it in a chronological reading that is from the earliest of Surahs to the last surahs as best you can some surahs are somewhat mixed and there is

Question among scholars as to exactly how to order of this material, but it is interesting to see the can the first appearances of Isa of the

Christ the Messiah in In the Quran and the fact that he is a contextless a historical argument in favor of Muhammad as a prophet

He's not talking about himself. He's not talking about Just completely different than what you find in the

New Testament. So it certainly is understandable how someone if all they've ever heard has been a

Recitation or a rephrasing of the very Small amount of material in the in the

Quran about Jesus to read the New Testament is a Incredible thing, but I have met so few

Muslims that have Despite the fact that the Quran speaks of the gospel They've been they have been told by their leaders so often that that gospel has been robbed from the

Bible It's been taken from the Bible that they don't they don't bother to read the New Testament And and if they do then of course, they and they they're facing the decision either they have to reject this this entire

Book because it's so different from the Quran. No one could possibly put the two together or they they must abandon

Muhammad as a prophet there is there is really no way of putting the two together and so here we have

Christians in Karsada and I have not seen any any Discussion of whether this has taken place or anything else the fact matter is

Pakistan in fact did I I'm I think I had another

Oh, yeah, it's in the same story. It's in the same story. Let me read you They started talking about the fact that there had been a mr.

Bandara Who is Parsi? who had attempted to bring into Pakistan's National Assembly a

Modification of what's known as 295 C of the Pakistan Penal Code if you if you keep up with voice the martyrs if you

And you've heard me saying much more about this You cannot study Islam without constantly being count encountering the fact that Muslims persecute

Christians all around the world. They they it is it is a part of those nations that become

Islamic nations to persecute Christians to have the Capital sentences for those who convert to another religion and things like this

And as you read about what has taken place in these in these nations

You see that when a particular nation has a blasphemy law as Pakistan does then the means of persecuting the

Christians basically becomes Accusing someone whether falsely or truly of blaspheming

Muhammad. Well, how would you define blaspheming Muhammad? I mean is there is it's very easy to determine the blasphemies that take place daily against Jesus Christ but if you're a

Christian and Someone asks you the question. Do you believe Muhammad was a prophet and you say?

No, I do not believe he was then that's easily interpreted as being a blasphemy of the Prophet And so to have that kind of a law on the books is in essence to say this is an

Islamic country that is not open to anyone else living within it and So very often when you read the stories of false imprisonments and and false accusations

They are based upon these blasphemy laws. Well, this mr. Bandara had attempted to bring into the

National Assembly a Modification and a change in reference to these particular laws and in particular

If you're an atheist if you're an atheist in Pakistan, I think you you probably would keep that to yourself to be sure

He He wanted to have a modification of the blasphemy laws and here's what the article says

It says his proposals were agreed with cries of shame From government and opposition benches and were rejected by the

Parliamentary Affairs Minister as un -Islamic Quote Islam is our religion and such bills hurt our feelings

This is not a secular state, but the Islamic Republic of Pakistan Now the hurt our feelings part definitely leaves me going excuse me

Okay, if you're the Islamic Republic of Pakistan fine, that's that's one thing but please hurt our feelings

Is a little bit difficult to? To stomach at that point, but this is what is going on all over the world in these nations and it is

Many many innocent Christians this day are separated from their families and If you go back on the blog,

I I spent some time Preaching on this particular subject a few weeks ago at the

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, and I would direct you to that as I was reading this was brought to my attention a large article

In the Daily Mail, which is a major News publication news journal, what would you there's a plain newspaper here in in London and It's a large

Center Point here on page 42 and 40 That's odd 42 to 47.

I guess there was something in between them anyway stone to death for love it is the story of a

Dwa Khalil Aswad a 17 year old a very pretty young lady

I guess and I did not do so know what I really want to but I guess you can go online and watch the video of her being stoned to death in Iraq up near Mosul and She is was stoned and killed

For having fallen in love with a Sunni boy and She is not

Sunni She is a part of religion that I will confess until this afternoon. I had never heard of before in my life

She is a part of the Yazidi religion I looked it up online.

It's yes either Yazidi or Yazidi and This is a form of ancient

Gnosticism with certain elements of Islam involved

Mosul is the center point of about half a million people who follow this particular religion and when when she fell in love with a

Sunni boy Then a death sentence was issued out for her and she was publicly

Publicly stoned over the course of about half an hour I guess it was just incredibly brutal and this is just takes place in the streets of these of these places and I looked up the

Yazidi religion online, and it was quite fascinating again if you are familiar with the

Book of Colossians and first John you would find a number of Parallels to the the situation they they have in essence the

Heavenly beings that they don't they don't worship actually the God who created all things they

They they worship a lesser being that is in charge of this world called

Malik house Yazidi accounts creation different from that of Christianity Islam.

They believe that God first created Malik house From his own illumination and the other six archangels were created later on God ordered

Malik house not to bout other beings and God created the other archangels which interestingly enough

Not only would that be Gnostic the emanations and things like that, but that sounds a little bit like Jehovah's Witnesses I mean when you think about it the first thing

God creates and the only thing God creates directly is Michael the Archangel an archangel and it's one of the reasons

I've Frequently said to Those who defend the Jehovah's Witness reading of Colossians chapter 1 you are in essence arguing for the very

Position that was being argued against by the Apostle Paul you're turning his own apologetic on its head

So anyway, these folks are still around there are still in essence Gnostic religions

In in the world and here is a situation where the followers of this religion Killed one of those that fell in love with a

Sunni Muslim boy who I don't no one knows who he is or anything like that, but That's a sad story.

She's a very pretty young girl. And that's the situation that goes on in those places now, of course as everyone recognized

Yesterday Jerry Falwell passed away and I'm starting to become somewhat concerned about going to The airport because the last time that I went to the airport to go overseas

Or one of the recent times I went to the airport to go overseas the

Situation with Terry Shivo took place and she passed away while I was in the waiting area well,

I get to the waiting area at the airport and breaking news Jerry Falwell has been taken to the hospital gravely ill and So I'm I'm like, okay.

Well, I should stop going to the airport because this is not a not a good thing and Given his health history when the initial comments the initial report came across I had a feeling what we were going to hear and of course that is what eventually ended up being the situation so Yeah day before yesterday yesterday for me yesterday was just yesterday was approximately 36 to 40 hours in length.

So just you know, just scratch off, you know, it's Seven o 'clock at night, but on what day

I don't know Here, so I just had I just crammed all of two days into one day

And so, you know, whatever quit picking on me so anyhow Obviously, I extended my condolences as best

I could on my BlackBerry from the the waiting area itself and It is sad to see some of the responses that have come out

I've noticed That the gays and lesbians held an anti memorial

For Jerry Falwell in San Francisco. Now the irony is that They don't bother saying how many people showed up.

I guess when you are a part of the you're you're a Homosexual in San Francisco, all you gotta do is call a newspaper and Say that you're going to have an anti memorial and it doesn't really matter if anybody shows up now if Christians do something if Christians want to make a public statement, then you have to have 10 ,000 people show up and they'll report is 2 ,000 and will be on the third page of the seventh section of the newspaper but as long as you're homosexual in San Francisco, you have super rights and so they have this this anti Jerry Falwell memorial

And no one will talk about the hatred, you know The fact that this is this this would qualify as a hate crime

If it was a non homosexual If it was a Fred Phelps type, they would be talking about hate crimes, but as long as you're a

Homosexual you can't commit hate crimes. You can only be the object of hate crimes. You can't commit them Even though I was looking at a story online of just a terrible story of the murder of two individuals back in I believe

January that has simply been Just they won't cover it in the mainstream media because it's not a politically correct a crime and So you you just the the inconsistencies of Journalism in our in our world today is just terrible 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number?

Yes, if you would like to speculate on Who's going to be in charge of Liberty University next I suppose you can do that obviously, that's been a question in everyone's mind, but I have no special insights into such things and We'll be monitoring events just like anybody else will be for that matter, but I honestly have no no concept of where the

University is going to go obviously Eric and Kanner is a well -known person there, but Eric and Kanner is likewise

Very much an unliked person by many other people and so will there be a political battle.

I don't know It would be sad if there was But the fact is that that's the kind of world we live in so I have no way of knowing

But it will be it will be very very interesting To see what so what takes place in that a particular way.

There was a another article since we were talking about Quote unquote hate crimes and the the passage of the

House representatives of the bill regarding hate crimes of 237 to 180

That's the bill that I believe President Bush has promised to veto

So we have at least about 18 more months worth of safety from that one but this whole issue of hate crimes and this whole issue of Trying to discern the intentions of people's hearts rather than being a nation of laws

Where it is the law that is looked to not to some psychological Examination of why people did what they did

That has been used in Europe in Australia in Canada as the means of intimidating people into silence of Making people worried that when they open their mouth and they they speak what they believe to be truth that When they do so they will have to pay for so doing and certainly minority groups, especially homosexuals, but abortion rights advocates

Want to make people very concerned about what they say in an attempt to intimidate those who would speak about them and That's it's coming to the

United States It's just coming a little bit more slowly than it has in other places people won't bother to look and see the effects elsewhere

But that's that's that's what's taking place Now over here in in the

UK It's a little bit of a gray day here just shocking that there would ever be a gray day in London I mean,

I just expected the bright blue skies and sunshine and everything else But it's a little bit of a gray overcast day here in Enfield, which is the north north west east just straight north, okay north of downtown

London and Nice breeze as I'm looking at my Actually, it's not my computer.

It's Rogers computer, but looking at my Google homepage. I see that it's 93 point two degrees

Back in Phoenix and it's not going to be 93 degrees here probably for yeah Does it get it get up to 93 95?

Doesn't doesn't get that hot here. Okay. Well, so it's already warmer back at home than than it could ever be here

And I don't even know what the temperature is I guess I should have put that in to figure out what the temp is, but it's low 60s

Yeah, it's around 60 degrees. Of course. I'm not using the centigrade thing there, but Oh, you saw some speculation that the fall of Sun was day.

Well, maybe so that would be That would be interesting. But anyway, it's it's nice here and I as I was looking for material on the program

Since no one has bothered to be kind enough so far Even all those folks in the in the chat channel who are busily chatting with one another

But they won't pick up the phone and they they won't Assist me in the all British dividing line today.

Oh, oh, oh, I Excuse me while I try to try to recover here

My good friend Roger has a question for me and and now I just need to mention to rich You cannot complain about the fact that he has a

British accent because he lives in London So so so this is this is for real. He's not

He's the one who's mentioned to me that I sound like Dick Van Dyke when I try to do a British accent

But actually we do have a question So I'm going to be passing the phone off here to my brother Roger and then

I will do my best to answer it Of course, it could be a very difficult question mate. I may have to take a break to figure it out But hold on just a moment.

Yeah, it's Dr. Wise. It's obvious you're a Calvinist But over here in England, we want to know the burning question is are you a self -respecting?

Calvinist Well, Roger I don't I don't know what you could possibly referring to unless possibly you're referring to that the fact that every

Self -respecting Calvinist is a pre -millennialist. Is that what you're asking about? You didn't try to get me in trouble here, aren't you?

Oh my I See rich has a oh good good.

All right, we do have a Call a call coming in which doesn't mean I'm going to I'm going to ignore your question

But so evidently a certain beginning sermon at the recent

Shepherds conference has made it all the way across the pond a little bit and Has left you just as befuddled as it left everyone else didn't it?

Now, I guess I'm not a self -respecting Calvinist I can say You're gonna say easy to get rid of me without a luggage

Anyway, if you don't just throw your tablet out the window and you're ready to go. Yes, indeed So some of you know what

I'm talking about Some of you have no idea what I'm talking about And unfortunately those of you who do know what I'm talking about are probably get me in trouble for having said what

I said But no, I am NOT a self -respecting Calvinist to that particular point in time Wait a minute now people are picking on my

British accent. I haven't even used it. That was you and you're British That's good, that's good.

Well, anyway, all right, we actually do have a a phone call and I appreciate that and Up from my actually my it's where I was born

I was born in Minnesota, but I don't call it my homeland because I'm my ancestors came from Scotland, of course

But I was was born up in Minnesota and so let's let's talk to Karen up in Minnesota.

Hello Karen Hey, how you doing doc? This is here. I'm doing pretty well given

Given the circumstances of the traveling out here and everything else. So we're They're trying to stir up the

Scottish. I hear that Sean Connery may come home at the right party wins Sean Connery might come home with the right.

Yeah, I read in one of the papers that Some more fake

Russian accents for it Listen, I was wanting to know I'm doing this some study on Mormonism and I was wanting to know the

How the Mormons deal with the word everlasting in like Psalms or the Isaiah Passes where God that dwells or inhabits eternity

And I was kind of curious as to since they don't believe that God has an eternity. They must somehow

Look at these verses some way and can you tell me how? Yeah, actually if you if you look up the term in the

Doctrine and Covenants, you will see Well, let me back up for people

I Wanted to start posting and I wanted to have queued up to post on the blog while I was gone

An entire introductory segment on the Mormon Doctrine of God because obviously with Mitt Romney's run for the presidency there is a

Heightened interest in the theology of Mormonism and it comes at an interesting time Where Mormonism is struggling to really be very consistent in its own definition of its own theology

Mormonism is undergoing a lot of stresses and strains right now. Their their numbers are down.

Their numbers are weak As far as their popularization pretty much just natural growth rather than the huge explosion that they had in the 1970s and 80s in the early 90s and There's there's confusion on leadership of the church as to what direction they're to go it used to be that Mormonism was very very clear in not defining itself as a as a

Christian faith in the sense of of Just being in one of many but because they've been trying to mainstream a lot of their own people are now confused as to what is

Really central in their theology and what is not the doctrine of God, which of course is what you're looking at there

Is part and parcel of where there is a lot of confusion now not because there's been some official repudiation of what

Mormonism is taught in the past but through a less consistent emphasis upon What used to be?

what even the youngest Mormons were taught when I first went out to the Salt Lake to Mesa and Began witnessing the

Mormons back when I myself was about the same age as the missionaries You could talk to young Mormon guys 12 13 years old who would be able to give you a really clear definition of what

Mormons believe now you can talk To 25 girls out there and you have to bring out your LDS scriptures and your your other works to even explain to them

The concept of exaltation to godhood and things like that. There's been a tremendous change over that period of time

But again, not that the church has changed its teaching So the same thing is true the doctrine covenant in a sense when you go the doctrine covenant or the

Book of Mormon for example you will use Everlasting in pretty much the same way you and I would because you need to remember when

Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon He had not yet developed the concept of the plurality of God Yes, and so that terminology and that language you'll find the

Book of Mormon is Drawn directly from his experiences in Methodism and Presbyterianism and and is very much in a biblical sense at that point

Then we get in doctrine covenants the earlier revelations are going to be

Along the same line because they're contemporaneous with the period of the writing of Book of Mormon immediately thereafter

Then when you get into the middle 1830s, this is when Joseph's theology begins to change and you start getting these odd Redefinitions of words for example, and this is directly relevant to your question when you

Talk to a Mormon and you use the term everlasting life now for you and I anyone who's familiar with the

Bible, there's a Fairly obvious meaning to that kind of terminology and we would share that in common

But when you read LDS writings you discover that in their mind, there's a subtle Redefinition to where it's everlasting lives is that L I V E s and instead of it referring to a kind of life

That is never -ending that is given to us by God as part of salvation in the

Mormon concept Everlasting lives is the ability on the part of an exalted man to produce offspring with his wives so that he can have

Celestial celestial children see once everybody who goes to heaven In Mormonism except those who are exalted to godhood

So even Mormons who go to the celestial kingdom, but they were not married during the eternal marriage ceremony and hence will become angels

Even they and everyone below them are said to be damned But here's another place where the term has two different meanings not damned in the sense that you and I would use that but damned as in damned up And unable to finish their progression to their fullest extent

It is the only those at the top who are who become exalted who have the ability to have spirit children

And that is one of the two definitions of God the power of the priesthood and the power of procreation so eternal lives is the ability to give life to to procreate spiritual children in this

Pre -existence populate a planet and then become the god of that planet worshipped by those who were who are on that planet

So you can see that there's a massively different lexicon being used by the more than is used by Christians at this point so when they talk about God and They encounter these texts to talk about God being everlasting

Omnipresent having all knowledge Older Mormons that the Mormons who would be more consistent with Joseph Smith more consistent with Utah Mormonism.

Let's put it that way will Interpret that in a sense of in reference to this creation

Oh, and so when you go to Colossians 1 you talk about how Jesus Christ created all things were in heaven earth visible invisible

So on so forth they say yes Jesus is the creator of this world the Bible is only relevant to this world and so all the terms

Used in the Bible are only relevant to this world or sometimes they'll even go to the point of saying this universe

But you need to recognize that they don't believe there's only one universe They believe that there are many universe says plural and so they they will limit all these words

To having reference only to this particular creation So as to leave room for not only the progression of God the status of godhood

But the fact that Mormon leaders have said from the beginning that if you take a Million worlds like this world the number the particle of matter in those worlds you'll see that there are more gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds and So Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion that I know of and so they have to redefine the language

To to allow for that kind of a thing now I don't know which

Mormons necessarily you might be talking with or what their background is But you do need to realize that there is there's change afoot, but it's it's more public relation change than anything else right now that is

Gordon Hinckley when he became the prophet had spent over 30 years in The public relations department of the church and so he knew how to spin things so when he's been on Larry King for example

He's known how to de -emphasize things that would make the Mormons look bad and emphasize things would make the Mormons look good and so on so forth

Combine that with what's been going on at BYU where there has been a purposeful Orchestrated attempt over the past 25 years

To get their people into non LDS schools get non

LDS doctorates and non LDS training Well, they want to do that to to enhance the the status of Mormonism, but it's had

I think from their perspective A rather unexpected result and that is these people come back to BYU And they're bringing all sorts of different ideas that were never a part of the nineteen thirties nineteen forties nineteen fifties

Mormonism of Utah and so you're getting people in at BYU Who are trying as it's

I think it's an impossible task to be very honest with you, but they are trying To to carve out for themselves amongst non

LDS philosophers non LDS theologians non LDS secular Scholars are trying to carve out for themselves a niche

Get respect for themselves. Yeah, and as a result there's on the part of of some almost a wholesale redefinition of The terms that when

Joseph Smith used them when Brigham Young used that when the prophets used them There was no question what they meant by them, but that stuff just doesn't work

I mean you cannot turn Joseph Smith into a person who really had a scholarly insight into what was going on You know his gross mistranslation of the book of Abraham.

For example, it's embarrassing. You've got to start using terrible and Metaphor and to try to come up with with something like this.

I don't know if you saw the Of the clip that I played on the blog just a few weeks ago

But I played a cross -examination and I think now I think about I think tomorrow the the next portion of that cross -examination to myself and Dennis Potter is actually scheduled to appear on the

On the blog so you might find that interesting. Okay. All right, but I'm sorry. No, that's fine.

No, I'll listen to it and see Yeah, yeah Happening with the BYU is what's happening in Catholicism I got a lot of liberals are trying to come along and change things

And kind of redefine things and you know When you were talking about that it kind of made me think of what's going on a lot of Catholicism Among the least well, and that's been going on a lot longer

Oh, yeah, it has amongst the Mormons to be to be sure but yeah they're all almost always is some sort of a strain between what might be called the

Orthodox religious leadership and the universities of a particular religious movement and that's what you're having take place would be why you and there is honestly,

I've detected many times a a Dismissive Arrogance on the part of some

BYU scholars toward the general authorities the Mormon Church They look at them as uneducated men and obviously when you think about Mormonism That is an inherent element of the

LDS faith is to distrust worldly learning and relies solely upon the charismatic spiritual experiences of men like Joseph Smith who himself was greatly unlearned and so it's it's odd to see the same kind of Conflict developing within within Mormonism and where it's going to go.

I don't know because I can assure you There are Mormons many of those Mormons and those exceptionally

LDS towns in southern Utah or around Manti Have no interest in following the

BYU scholars down the liberal road of becoming just another denomination Okay, and so I don't know where the

LDS leadership is going to go and how they're going to be able to deal with all These things but as it stands right now when you go through the

LDS temple and you enter into the celestial room and You sit around enough to one place on earth where you can discuss

The endowment ceremonies and you can discuss the temple the what goes on the temple and things like that There is still a tremendous amount of discussion of exaltation to Godhood.

You've just seen representations made to you of the of the plurality of God and and all of this is meant to be

Illustrating for you how you can become a god yourself and within that context That's still a very much a part of the

LDS faith But in its external discussions with others it has become greatly diminished and So as far as the term everlasting is concerned they would

There are some at BYU today who would try to find a way To make that term actually have meaning

Within Mormonism that would be related to the historic meaning of the term

Eternal but they just Joseph Smith theology is too clear within the context in which it was it was stated

To honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say yeah, this is what he intended So they they're having to develop these these paradigms very carefully because obviously it was only 10 -15 years ago that the church moved against a number of BYU type scholars who were just getting too liberal for them.

So there's yeah, you know, there's an uneasy truce there but I think that the you know, the emphasis is still that direction and so now

Can I ask a question if I if so if I were to go to the their their website and do a search on the

Doctrine of Covenants on the word everlasting That's where the evolution takes place in Smith's writings, right that the everlasting kind of takes on a different slant

Right, you'd be able to see even within the Doctrine and Covenants because remember the Doctrine and Covenants represents revelations

Later on specifically in regards to Joseph Smith that are in the earliest portion contemporaneous with the writing of the

Book of Mormon and the founding the earliest church in the 1830s April 1830 for the beginning and Then the later ones come much much longer after that and he's trying to put together this

Massive shift that has taken place in his own teaching where he's gone from being a basically a modalistic

Trinitarian because if you read Mosiah chapter 15, it's very obvious in the Book of Mormon He's trying to express the

Doctrine of the Trinity, but he does so in error. He does so in a modalistic fashion Well, it seemed like in that thing.

Yeah, it seemed like in the book Yeah, it seemed like that in the Book of Mormon that he that he's almost a

Trinitarian I mean when you read it There's some things that he says that you kind of say well Where you know, there seemed to be a shift later on with this many gods

But he talks about the Father and the Son being one God And so I kind of found that interesting

But and not only that but it creates all sorts of problems one of which you can actually

Utilize and in helping to witness to a Mormon that is if they believe in the first vision

I don't know if you've seen online my book letters to Mormon elder. We're actually putting that back in print

Because there's so much interest in this subject as well But I document the fact that the first vision story found in LDS scripture

Which supposedly takes place in the spring of 1820? Simply didn't take place in the spring of 1820 and Joseph Smith's own writings indicated this is the case this is the story that developed about 1838 and This is where he allegedly saw

God the Father in Jesus Christ a separate distinct personages. You can go to Doctrine and Covenants section 84 and You can demonstrate that in in Joseph Smith's writings at that point in time in DNC 84

Which is I'd if I recall correctly somewhere in the early 1830s. I don't have a DNC in front of me

He says that no man can see God the Father Without the priesthood and live nothing about it according to LDS theology

Joseph Smith received the priesthood The Aaronic priesthood from John the Baptist and then the Melchizedek priesthood from Peter James and John in 1829 1830 and yet according to the later story

He saw God the Father in the spring of 1820 nine to ten years earlier And so you can see right there in the doctrine doctrine of section 84

He has not even yet claimed to have seen God the Father in Jesus Christ It's a distinct individuals that the whole first vision story which is normally what the missionaries start out with was something that evolved tremendously over time and a careful examination of the

LDS scriptures bears these things out and and it can be useful in talking with Mormons to know these things because Generally, they're they're going to take their scriptures with them

So if you demonstrate something to them from their own scriptures, even if they won't take out a literature from you. They That's wonderful information.

I appreciate it very much. All right. Well, thank you for your call today. Bye. Bye. All right. Bye. Bye Yeah, lots lots of reason right now,

I apologize, I Had wanted to have up on the blog and I will try to Maybe tomorrow get a couple more put together for at least next week but continue the presentation of letting the

Mormon leadership speak for themselves in defining the the

LDS viewpoint because it has been tremendously disappointing to listen to the utter lack of Meaningful discussion of this particular subject on the part of Americans today because of Mitt Romney's presidential run

You know without getting into politics. I'm sure the man's very nice, man But the problem is we're in essence being told we cannot speak the truth about Mormonism Mormonism is just another

Christian domination and this is what the conservatives are saying This is what the alleged cultural conservatives are saying is it's bigoted and it's wrong to take the time to actually speak the truth about Mormonism and So few people have any knowledge of what

Mormonism actually teaches that it's it is absolutely Terrible and as a result, they want to say well look we don't really care about that stuff

Mitt Romney is a nice guy. He talks about Jesus That's all that matters to me and you're being a closed -minded person now, of course at the same time

I've also seen clips I even posted a clip on my website of a guy who approached this in the completely wrong way

I mean to be at a political rally and stand up in an audience question and basically say you don't believe in God It's sheer stupidity

Because you don't have time to define what it is. You're talking about but certainly within the ministry of the church certainly within teaching certainly within the

Sunday school and In the in the conversations we have with one another Seeking to encourage one another in the faith after services, whatever

There should be a a clear understanding of the actual teachings the official teaching of the

Mormon Church And this is this is an opportunity So someone in jail just said if you can get your book back into print just change the title is

Mitt Romney my brother You'll make a fortune You know what she's exactly right, there's absolutely no question about it.

Yeah Get the guys over the bookstore to start drawing up a cover for it right now

Get pictures from the debate the other night, you know That's all you got to do You know, we can get hold of Mike pretty quick change title and is

Mitt Romney my brother. Yeah, I'll just change the introductory Chapter and Goodness that's right though.

That would sell like hotcakes What's that? Oh There you go.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah letters to a presidential candidate That one actually came from a certain mr.

Hunt in the UK in Channel Which mr. Mr. Mr. Roger here knows who that is.

So Yes letters to a presidential candidate would work fairly well, too So and then someone just asked what kind of a name is

Mitt anyways? Someone who very much likes the baseball

I think I don't know where that one came from Romney, of course is a good Mormon name there's no question about that, but Mitt is not a big name

That's a Alma or something like that is much more of a good LDS name than than anything else

There really does need to be though much more discussion of this subject within our within our culture now very quickly

Since I'm looking at the watch here and we've got just a few minutes left and I'm sure there's just all sorts of numbers I'm not calling the the number right now

But I was going to mention at one point earlier before I saw that we had a call If I'm going up to I'm going up to Scotland And I can't wait to be in Scotland with my friends and my my all of my all of my relatives from way back but Things in Scotland aren't overly exciting these days.

I Have I have the BBC edition of the Scottish BBC edition on my RSS reader and I saw

I saw a fascinating story. It was one of the top stories in Scotland today I want to read it to you, and I hope you all are excited as excited as all my

Scottish friends are it says Seagull lays egg on roof of car

It says I'm reading it. It's from Thursday, May 17th 2007 this is a confused seagull gave a new meaning to the word hatchback

When it nested on the roof of a car at Inverness Airport's long stay car park

The car park means it's Scottish because you don't say parking lot. They say car park

The bird was incubating eggs on a bundle of twigs and other debris it has formed on top of the

Citroen Berlingo That's not a normally pretty car is it no I just saying no it's not a pretty car at all

I've got a picture of it here, too The bird says the specialists were brought in to destroy the nest and the eggs to minimize the risk of bird strikes

No, it's a bird strike what I think it is The birds hitting people.

Oh dive bombing them. Okay, I thought it might be something you have to clean off of your car later on Okay RSPB Scotland said laws stopping people from disturbing

Nests were not equipped to deal with that kind of situation It says that George Mayer 66 from Portnokie Who knows it's

Scottish Portnokie was shocked to discover the nest and took a photograph and y 'all want you should look this up as fascinating and I was just walking past and thought

I had to take a picture. He said and so there you have just an amazing Just it is so wonderful All this time which has been this has been telling me that he's hanging up on me.

He's going to turn it off We're out of time I checked in my watch

With your your voice At the beginning of the program. Are you telling me that your countdown can sometimes be a little bit up inaccurate?

Well, I I have to admit I did tell you no British accents Goodness I talked with my good friend

Jim hand decide today with Glasgow and it's just like it automatically came back How you how you're supposed to speak when you're in Scotland, uh -huh

It's a British it's a Scottish story I had to read it as hanging folks closer comes in 10 seconds

There it is listening to the dividing line today live from London you would you like to do an all -scottish one next week they're rich We gotta go now

Thanks for listening to the dividing line, we'll see if we can convince rich to allow us to do a Scottish Dividing line sometime next week.

Maybe who knows but thanks for listening. We'll see you later. Bye Oh The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or write us at p .o

Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks