September 26, 2019 Show with Dr. Michael Haykin on “Augustine’s ‘The City of God’ (& Why a 5th-Century Book Has Timeless Value For Christ’s Church)”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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your own questions.

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of

humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 26th day of

September 2019.

And I have on the program today one of my favorite guests of all time to interview,

and that is the illustrious Dr. Michael A .G. Haken, Professor of Church History and Biblical

Spirituality and Director of the Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies at the Southern

Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

Today we are going to be addressing the theme, Augustine's The City of God and Why a Fifth

Century Book Has Timeless Value for Christ's Church.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Michael A .G. Haken.

Great to be with you, Chris.

Thank you.

And as always, for the sake of our listeners who are new, perhaps

they're new believers, they're unfamiliar with you, and they're unfamiliar with the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in

Louisville, Kentucky, why don't you tell us something about that fine seminary?

Amen.

And the website is sbts .edu, S -B for Southern Baptist, T

-S for Theological Seminary, S -B -T -S .edu.

And I interviewed Dr. Mohler once on this program, and if you could send my greetings to him and

tell him that I want him back on the program again at some point in the near future, God willing.

And I was just before the show started watching a new documentary that

Dr. Mohler has participated in, Puritan, All of Life to the Glory of God.

He is one of the 20 featured speakers on this documentary, and it's

extraordinary.

I highly recommend the Media Gratia documentary, Puritan, All of Life to the Glory of God.

So you folks listening can look that up later on.

Today we are addressing Augustine's The City of God and why a 5th

century book has timeless value for Christ's Church.

Before we do that, I know that sometimes this may appear to be redundant for you

because of your scholarly and historian background to

remind our listeners who Augustine was, but as I said, we do have very often new

believers listening, and even non -Christians, even Muslims and so on listening.

So for the sake of our audience who is unfamiliar with Augustine, if you could please give us a little background in a

summary form on who Augustine was.

Yeah,

Augustine

was born in 354 AD

in a

western

individual.

Now would the Eastern Orthodox agree with your assessment that they are Augustinian?

No, they would not.

Eastern Orthodox, if they've not been raised in the United States, raised in the

West, are to

some degree

influenced by them.

Now I don't know if the Eastern Orthodox would actually openly identify as

Pelagian, but is some of the reason that Augustine so much

opposed Pelagius and his understanding of the innocence

of the human race, even at the moment of conception, and so on?

Well, that's where

it prominently was.

Oh, where the spirit proceeds from the father and son?

I think it's right to emphasize that because...

Okay, well, this classic work, The City of God,

why is it that that was, in fact, you chose the topic for today?

What was so compelling about, or what is so compelling about this book that you wanted to

focus on it for a two -hour interview?

And it's obviously something very important in your heart and mind, and a

very important addition to the resources God has blessed us with to bless your faith.

So why don't you tell us a little bit about the background of this book and why it is so important to you?

Yeah, I think the book is a very...

Now, would that be one of the primary reasons that it's timeless?

Because as much as we in the 21st century

look around us and see the horror of evil

triumphing, it seems, the infanticide rampant globally

with the celebration of abortion, late -term abortion,

allowing babies to die that have accidentally been born, quote -unquote accidentally, been born during an

abortion attempt, letting them die in a shoebox or something, the marriage of men to

men and women to women, the celebration of that abomination by clergy

globally.

Even though we see this in the 21st century and we cringe, and many in our ranks

because of that expect Christ to return within our lifetime, these things

obviously, although not the same things, but the horror of the triumph of

evil has been something that the church has witnessed for centuries going all the way back to

the first century.

People forget that Nero had Christians burning his torches to light

his way in his palace and so on.

But is this reason, as you just confirmed, the reason

that how we as a church are to respond to the evil surrounding us, that's why

this book is timeless.

Now the original title, Was It Not the City of God Against the Pagans?

And I think that the fuller title is more descriptive and should be brought back into more

common use.

It's typically abbreviated The City of God.

Now, Augustine himself, before his conversion, as you, and by the way I want

to make sure that our listeners know that if you want to hear a two -hour interview that Dr.

Haken and I conducted not long ago on the life and legacy of St. Augustine, if you go to www

.irontrapandzionradio .com and go to the archive of Past Programs

Podcast, it says, or Past Shows Podcast, if you click on that, you can type in H -A -Y

-K -I -N into the search engine and you will

be directed to the link where you can hear the entire interview.

But you go into the fact that Augustine was

not always in his youth a Christian, was quite rebellious and so on.

Before his conversion to Christianity, how did he

get along with the pagan society around him and interact with them, etc.?

Can you

describe

some of the

ideology,

theology,

mindset of those

pagans

that were

in

the culture.

From which Augustine came so we can get an idea on how that may mirror today, and as

you were even saying, how 9 -11, when that horror occurred,

the greatest loss of life on American soil at the hands of a

foreign enemy in our history, why that book immediately became even more

important to you.

What was that culture like, that enemy pagan culture, enemy to the cross of Christ, that is?

Yeah, so it's not like, it's unlike our...

Now how much of an impact has this book had on Christendom

within the last nearly 2000 years?

He was a 5th century writer, born in the 4th.

I mean, obviously we have much more recent, and it was still centuries ago, but we have much more recent

works like The Pilgrim's Progress that have had a phenomenal impact on Christendom ever since

John Bunyan wrote that in prison a number of centuries ago.

But where would this book stand in comparison to the impact that it's had on Christendom?

It's

had

an

enormous

impact

in

many

ways.

And subjects meaning the people that live in the areas where they reign.

Yeah, and he argues that the hunger and desire for power is not a fitting to

have a love for

and a desire to benefit,

even despite the political theology of a man named

Machiavelli.

It would be

interesting to ask genuinely...

Go ahead, I'm sorry.

And then the other thing I think that comes out of that is...

Yeah, and that clearly comes out today when we

see the polar opposite ideologies

clash in our culture.

We see, and of course I'm not saying that everyone on one side is

necessarily a child of God who has their priorities in an

appropriate level, and that everybody

who necessarily is on what might be called a liberal side is

totally dismissive of God and the scriptures.

Although, I think that there is an extreme on the left that has become

monstrous and frighteningly satanic and astonishingly evil.

But it's kind of interesting how this is a reoccurring theme in the 21st century.

Wasn't one of the primary purposes of Augustine in The City of God

against the pagans to set out a proof that

Christianity was not to blame for the fall of Rome and a refutation of that

idea and that paganism itself had within it the key elements that

brought about its own destruction, which is what we hear today from many leftist

totalitarians.

They blame Christianity and biblical morality other than those

things that they borrow unconsciously from the scriptures themselves.

They blame us, really, for everything that's horrible in this nation and

perhaps this world that is bringing us to the brink of collapse.

We could even think of the global warming alarmist scenario where they view those

who are the evangelical Christian right as the primary evil voice in

this world trying to minimize the severity of this so -called threat that they imagine.

But anyway, I'm speaking on too long here.

If you could respond to that.

Yeah, that is a key

divided

into

two main

sections

that you find in...

Right.

Yes, and by the way, there is a documentary that you can watch and listen to

that came out in 1979, hosted by Leonard Nimoy, the actor that played Mr. Spock in

Star Trek, where it demonstrates the scientific

consensus of the 70s that we were facing at that time, global destruction

because of a fastly approaching Ice Age.

But I want to continue on that thread about Augustine's

refutation of Christianity being at fault for the fall of the Roman Empire.

When we return, we have to go to our first break right now.

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We are now back with our guest, Dr. Michael A .G. Haken, and he

is discussing a classic work of Christian literature that is Timeless,

The City of God by St. Augustine.

If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot

com and please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

And we have John in Bangor, Maine, who has a question.

He said, Is this work of Augustine at the root of Two Kingdom theology?

I have heard people, even within the Reformed faith, who

disagree strongly with their own Calvinistic brethren over whether or not Two Kingdom theology

is biblically sound, and if you could, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, give a very brief

description of this.

Am I right on this assumption that this is the basis for Two Kingdom theology, the book you are discussing today?

Yes, yeah, that is an accurate

after

Pentecost,

since the time of Christ, the Two Kingdoms.

Now, my listener, our listener, insinuated, and I know this to

be true, because I actually, several years ago, had a debate between two Reformed Christians

on this subject, one who was a proponent or is a proponent of

Two Kingdom theology, and one who is an opponent.

Can you give us a little bit of an idea of what the conflict is about that, that even Reformed people would disagree with each other

on it?

Well, the conflict obviously has to do to the degree,

what

that

was

meant

for is

with the

New

Testament.

Now, I know of brethren who may be doctrinally

nearly identical, who disagree as to how, when, and if the

Church as a corporate entity should ever be involved in politics.

And the only professing Christians I am aware of

that are even against individual Christians as citizens being involved,

like the Amish, some of the Mennonites, and varying degrees of that, and

Seventh -day Adventism and other places.

But is this also a part of this conflict where you have

some Christians who believe, although a Christian either has a liberty or even a

duty to be in some fashion involved politically, even if it just means their vote, where you

have, on the other spectrum, Christians saying that the Church is

neglecting its duty to be salt and light in the world by not being more involved politically as a

corporate entity.

Am I anywhere in the right realm there?

Those are also issues that are bound up with this.

They're not...

Well, I know two...

Go ahead, I'm sorry.

The idea that a Christian should...

Generally not...

What I was referring to as far as within Reform circles is I can think of

two of my modern -day heroes, one who is still with us and one who is in Heaven,

who disagreed sharply on this but were both thoroughgoing Calvinists or are thoroughgoing Calvinists.

You have Dr. John MacArthur, for instance, who does not believe the Church as a corporate entity should be

involved politically and that pastors should not be involved in rallying support

for specific political candidates while at the same time thinking it very appropriate for

Christian individuals to be involved.

And on the other hand, you have the late Greg Bonson.

He's been in Heaven so long, I don't know if the term late would be appropriate grammatically, but he would be

more when he was with us in favor of the Church as a corporate entity being more strongly involved

as a voice for politics.

So that's really where I was coming from.

Yeah, so I guess when I was thinking...

Right, yeah, that's an extreme view, obviously.

By the way, John in Bangor, Maine, thanks to our friends at Hendrickson Publishers,

you have won a free copy of The City of God, their edition of it, their 900

-page edition of it that retails for $18 .95.

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After the show, if you place any order of Dr. Michael Haken's

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Going back to what we were originally discussing before the break,

the charge that Christianity is at

the root of the blame for the fall of society and culture,

which has been going on for millennia, even when it

is believed that Nero is the one who had ordered the burning of Rome so that the

Christians would be blamed, can you go into a little bit more detail about that concept of that being

a perpetual thing from not only Nero's day, but Augustine's day, into the current day?

Yeah,

and

that

if

the

gods

were to begin to

accept

the Tertullian type of rites,

tend

to want the violent world Christianity

became

in

the years

prior.

In fact, he points out,

because many of you pagans, the only reason you attack

anybody in the churches.

Wow.

And so...

Well, we have to get to our midway break right now.

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Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues some of my

very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope

Reform Baptist Church now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and have always

been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be

accurately taught discipled and edified by the Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving

and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder

Pastor Christopher McDowell.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church go to hopereformedli .net

that's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711

that's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Here I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the Evidence for the Bible.

Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country.

Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently his firm has over 100

cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10

different states.

In Illinois his lawyers had the 4th largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state I recommend that you

call Dan.

Consultations are free.

There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800

-669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrough, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.

God tells us in James 1 -27 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

In the providence of God.

3 years ago I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia in a township called Cabanana who

were taking care of 24 orphans.

I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

What was I to do?

Could I just say God bless you and walk away?

The situation of the children set heavily upon me.

As I was praying concerning this need it came to me, I trust from the Lord to tell the orphans' plight to a broader audience.

The entire need for their clothing, food, education and some medical services is $73 per month per child.

If just 50 of us would give $35 a month we could meet the need.

Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there.

So if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans.

In this season of hope and giving will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans?

Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel,

Mississippi 39443 or donate through our website bbclaurel .com.

Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi

39443 or bbclaurel .com.

Thank you.

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Every day at thousands of community centers high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions

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Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World

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Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages.

Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ.

In fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402 That's 516 -599

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS which stands for Cumberland Valley

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It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical and

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Before we return to Dr. Haken we just have a few exciting upcoming events that we want you to know about.

Our friends at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania are having a

conference that features a friend of my guest, Dr. Michael Haken.

Dustin Benj is the speaker at this conference on the theme, The Bible's Continued Relevance,

Authority, and Sufficiency and that is Saturday, October 5th

and Sunday, October 6th.

By the way, Dustin Benj is going to be my guest here on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on

October 1st, that's a Tuesday, October 1st and he's going to be speaking on a different subject The

Angelology of Jonathan Edwards which is the thesis of his doctoral dissertation

and if you want to get more information on this conference, the Reformation Conference

2019 at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church

of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania just go to their website and to get all the details that you need

GraceBFC, that's GraceBFC for Bible Fellowship Church dot com.

GraceBFC dot com.

Once again, that's Saturday and Sunday October 5th and 6th in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

We have also an event that I'm excited about that's coming up before you know.

It seems like it's far away but it will be here before you know it that is the Foundations Conference in New York

City that's December 19th and 20th which is a Thursday and Friday and there is no better place, in my

opinion to be spending the Christmas season than in Manhattan so I'm looking forward to my return to my old

stomping grounds December 19th and 20th for the Foundations Conference which is a conference of sermon audio.

This is a conference only for men in ministry leadership so keep that in mind.

The speakers include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Paul Washer Jeff Thomas, Reverend Ormond Tomassian Richard Colwell

Jr. and Andrew Quigley.

If you would like to join me there in New York City, December 19th and 20th at the Foundations Conference

go to thefoundationsconference .com.

Thefoundationsconference .com.

Then in January I'm packing up my bags again and I'm heading down south this time

to Atlanta, Georgia more specifically College Park, Georgia a suburb of Atlanta

to the Georgia International Convention Center where they are hosting the G3 Conference

the G3 Conference standing for Gospel, Grace and Glory this January the theme is Worship Matters

and they have always a phenomenal and very long list of speakers.

The longest list of speakers I think that I've ever encountered at any conference.

Once again we have Stephen J. Lawson on the roster.

We have Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

We have Phil Johnson, the Executive Director of John McArthur's Media Ministry grace to you.

We have Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio.

We have Derek Thomas, world -renowned Presbyterian writer and

speaker and pastor and preacher Dr. Tom Askell, who is the

Executive Director of Founders Ministries, the Calvinistic Ministry within the Southern Baptist Convention.

Dr. Stephen J. Nichols, the President of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier

Ministries.

Dr. Kosti Hinn, or should I say Kosti Hinn, I don't think he's achieved his doctorate yet but Kosti Hinn

who is the nephew of the notorious heretic and charlatan Benny Hinn and

Kosti doesn't mind me saying that because he says just as much if not more in

refutation of his own uncle when he is especially outside of his own pulpit speaking at conferences and

writing Kosti has renounced the word of faith heresies of his youth and is now a

Reformed Baptist pastor and cessationist who was in California and just recently took a call to

Arizona to be on the pastoral team of a church there and many more and as you may have heard

John MacArthur himself is on the lineup at the G3 conference, if it was just John MacArthur all by himself I would make the

trip to Atlanta to hear him and see him preach, he is one of my greatest heroes of modern times

and if you want to join me there go to G3conference .com G3conference .com and you

will have all the information that you need to register and I strongly urge you to register for an exhibitors booth if you have a

business or para -church ministry because they have over 5 ,000 people that attend this

conference every year and with John MacArthur on the lineup I think they are going to have over 6 ,000 people, so register

not only to attend but if it applies to you, an exhibitors booth before they run out of room at G3conference .com

G3conference .com.

I hope your exhibitors booth is near mine for the Iron Trip and Zion Radio table that I will have as I have for

the last three years, this will be my fourth G3 conference, I hope to see you there.

Last but not least, if you love Iron Trip and Zion Radio and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves

please go to IronTripandZionRadio .com click support then click, click to donate now you can donate instantly

with a credit or debit card, we are in urgent need of your donations.

We are facing a very frightening month of October, we barely are squeaking through September

please help us if you can please never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church where you are a member to help

us and never put your family in financial jeopardy to help us, never do those two things, those are two

commands of God to support your family and your church but if you are blessed above and beyond your ability

to obey those two commands you have extra money for trivial purposes, for recreational purposes,

the money that's sitting around collecting interest in you can use some of it for benevolent reasons, please help

us if you don't want us to disappear, please go to IronTripandZionRadio .com, click support then click,

click to donate now you can also mail in a check made out to

IronTripandZionRadio to the address that you see on the screen when you click support at IronTripandZionRadio .com

you can also advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line, as

long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what we believe, we will help you launch an ad campaign.

You don't have to believe identically with me but you need to be promoting something that's compatible with what we believe, chrisarnson at gmail

.com and put advertising in the subject line, if you are not a member of a local bible believing church and you're not

even looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God, I can help you find a church no matter where you live in the

world, God willing, because I have lists of biblically faithful churches globally and if

none of the churches on my list are close enough to you those pastors that are

reasonably close may know of a church in your backyard or know of a church

where you are vacationing.

I've helped many people in our audience find churches where they have joined or have visited on vacation or

have recommended to their own family and loved ones, so send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the

subject line, that's also the email address for a question for Dr. Michael A .G. Haken on

Augustine's City of God.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania wants to know.

Is the City of God difficult to read?

I have never picked up a book that is of that level of antiquity that I could comfortably

read or even understand with ease, can you give me some assistance perhaps even in finding a

version or edition that is in modern day and easy to read English?

Yes, I

do have a reading

guide, oh

great so I'd be happy to mhaken at spts .edu

m -h -a -y -k -i -n at spts .edu.

If you email me, there is a version is a

modern translation.

The amount of things that he's talking about

that demand a degree of knowledge of Roman history and so the

second detail,

but would enable you nonetheless to have a good.

Well, guess what.

B .B. you've won a free copy of the Hendrickson Publishers Edition compliments of

Hendrickson Publishers and also compliments of cvbbs .com.

We'll be shipping that out to you once we get your full mailing address.

That is if you could send us your mailing address as soon as possible, we'll get that to

you.

Sorry folks, I got distracted for a moment because I thought a new question was coming in, but it was something

totally irrelevant to our discussion today.

So, by the way, if anybody else would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We have Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, who wants to know.

Can you describe those specific things that you're aware of that the pagan culture had

innate to it that aided in the collapse of the Roman

Empire.

As I mentioned earlier the Christians actually were running the

empire, there

being the idolatrous

euthanasia.

Well, not all, but by the time that

he died in 337, he became

so, 100 years on is when the empire,

running the empire and so often.

The argument, one of the arguments that

I've heard

now,

and Augustine obviously has

to deal with

this, that's why he distinguished, cannot know

the

kingdom

of which.

We have Susan Margaret of Dauphin County Pennsylvania

who asks, I know that there are earthly reasons, such as the one you mentioned

regarding an inadequate military that bring down a culture into

ruin, but do you believe that the sins and moral

evil of any given society could bring it to ruin, not necessarily for a

comprehensible earthly reason but because of the wrath of God himself bringing down such a culture.

Yes, I think so, I mean I think that you do

find that in the, you know, the proverb that.

Well, guess what, Susan Margaret, in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania you have also won a

free copy of Hendrickson Publishers edition of The City of God by St. Augustine

and we want to thank our friends again at Hendrickson Publishers for their generosity, and in

particular Meg Rusick, who made this possible who is involved

in the publicity department there thank you so much, Meg, for expediting this

offer that we have for our listeners.

Make sure you give us your full mailing address in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania so that cvbbs .com who will be

shipping it out to you can get it in your hands.

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who wants to know,

I have often heard that sodomy being rampant in a culture is

often historically the reason for its collapse, no doubt from the very hand of God, but

also from making it an easier target from invading enemies.

Is this something that is a realistic idea, in your opinion from history?

Yes.

You obviously have the situation of Sodom and Gomorrah, the overthrow of those cities.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, were you saying that it was only

same gender same sex marriage that would be illegal, or was it even just the

practice of it of homosexuality that was illegal in that.

Day?

No, I mean same sex marriage

that was the only.

Right.

Okay, but I mean, was the concept even thought of as a possibility for

people to have same sex marriages.

Back then?

No.

The only one that I have heard of although I have heard some Christian

authors and so on claim that there were marriage ceremonies going on for homosexuals in the

ancient world, I don't know if that is true.

If they're claiming that, then I think I know that world very well.

Marriage.

Okay, yeah, and

by the way.

I wasn't referring to liberals defending that, I was just saying that.

I've heard some saying that that sin and that false understanding of marriage even

existed long ago, but will you just confirm that at least in the Middle Ages it occurred?

Even

among the

Greeks.

Yeah, and in certain Islamic cultures like in Afghanistan I have heard that they turn

a blind eye to homosexual relationships amongst the unmarried young men

but not when they get older and get married.

I'm not saying that they think it's not a sin, but they seem to tolerate it at least in Afghanistan.

I've heard from experts on Islam.

The one marriage that I have heard of that seems to have come from credible

sources in the ancient world between a man and a boy was when

Nero had kidnapped a young man.

Had his armies kidnap this young man that resembled his late wife and had that young

man, as best as they could in the ancient world somehow surgically altered if

not probably just castrated or something and he married that man.

Have you ever heard that story of Nero?

No, count that Nero was bisexual as were a number of

these wrong.

We have, let's see here CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

Who wants to know what in your opinion was Augustine's greatest

ammunition in setting forth the idea that a Christian ideology in a

culture is the best ideology to preserve it rather than bring it to ruin.

Now

he's

not

talking,

he

wouldn't

be

democratic in his understanding but he is talking about

rulers

is

deeply

indebted to

people

like Augustine.

Yes, I've heard the case for Calvin being very indirectly of course

responsible for the American Republic that we enjoy, at least for now.

Yeah, I think you could say this, that if Calvin had not lived and engaged in.

We

have.

Christopher from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks Can you compare and contrast the

love that Augustine speaks of that is the major and key element of

preserving a society with the love that is claimed by those in our day

who hate Christianity and hate the scriptures who claim love as well.

There obviously is a difference.

Yeah, I mean.

The enemies of Christ very often borrow where they find things comfortable

to assimilate into their world view.

They borrow from the Bible even if unconsciously all the time.

Yeah, even for example

Christianity

in

the

20th

century.

Now this is a professing Christian author this woman, the handmaid, who wrote the book.

Oh no, Margaret Margoble.

Does this have something to do, I can't remember the title of the TV series because I've never seen it.

Would the women look like nuns?

They're dressed like in traditional nun habits or very similar?

Okay, well we have to go to our final break right now, it's going to be a lot more brief than the last one, if you have a

question, please submit it quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And as always, give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if

your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

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Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

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I'm so grateful to our Sovereign God that while manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron, a major Bible

conference, I providentially met Pastor Andrew Smith of Christ Reformed Community Church just

south of Jacksonville, Florida, right off I -95 in St. Johns County.

Andrew is certainly the kind of pastor that is a perfect match for my radio show and has already proven to be an

ideal guest.

Christ Reformed Community Church shares my conviction that God is both creator and sustainer of the

universe.

He rules and reigns providentially over our lives.

He directs not only the historical events of the world, but also the personal events of individuals.

I agree with Christ Reformed Community Church that the very purpose of the church is to make disciples, that we are tasked

with the responsibility to evangelize locally, nationally, and globally, and that we are to equip

the saints for the work of service.

Unlike the man -centered, seeker -sensitive movement, they do not gauge the success of biblical discipleship by

how many people are in a church, but by the faithful ministry of God's Word and Gospel.

For more details on Christ Reformed Community Church, visit ChristReformedCC .com.

That's ChristReformedCC .com.

Or call 904 -955 -9881.

That's 904 -955 -9881.

Tell Pastor Andrew that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm Pastor Andrew Smith, and I'd like to urge you to consider joining Christ Reformed Community

Church of St. John's, Florida in financially supporting Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And we are so thrilled that Pastor Andrew Smith is going to be joining us monthly with

highlights from history that involve Christianity, and he's actually going to have two coming

up in October that I'm looking forward to.

By the way, I want to just remind you quickly, keep praying for my dear friend Joe Jackiewicz, the founder of

First Love Radio, First Love Publications, and First Love Missions, First Love Radio livestreams

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio every day.

And as many of you know who listen to the show regularly, Pastor Joe was diagnosed with a very

deadly and aggressive form of leukemia, but much to the praise and honor and glory of

Jesus Christ, he amazed the doctors by going home two weeks early when they

discontinued his chemo and radiation because of the fact that they believe he is in remission.

And I just want to thank all of you who have prayed for Pastor Jackiewicz and his family.

Please continue to pray that this remission remains, that he is completely healed, that

he has many years ahead of him to bless the body of Christ through serving God and

serving his fellow man.

And we also want to remind you to pray for the family of my other dear friend of many years, Richard Bennett.

Richard Bennett, well known to many of you as a former Roman Catholic priest who discovered and

embraced the doctrines of sovereign grace, became a Reformed Baptist evangelist, has written a number of books, including those

published by Banner of Truth and others, and founder of Berean Beacon Ministries.

He went home to be with the Lord just about three days ago, and he was about 80 years

old, so was not a shock, especially since he was in poor health.

I dearly miss him already, and I just ask you to pray for the surviving family of Richard Bennett, especially his wife, Lynn, who is in

four -stage cancer, battling four -stage cancer right now.

But now we have a final few moments to wrap up what we've been discussing today.

Dr. Haykin, if you could just, for about two minutes, summarize what you most want etched in the

hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to the City of God by Augustine.

Yes, I

think it would be

this, that in which

we find

ourselves...

Thank you so much, Dr. Haykin, and I want to remind our listeners that if you want to find out more

about the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, go to sbts .edu.

And you had given us your e -mail address for anybody interested, and I believe it was a study guide for the City of God?

That's a one -page study guide for the City of God.

And what's your e -mail address again?

Mhaykin, so m -h -a -y -k -i -n at sbts.

M, as in Michael, haykin, h -a -y -k -i -n at s -b -t -s dot e -d -u.

I also want to remind our listeners that if you want to find out more about the Hendrickson Publishers

Edition of the City of God by St. Augustine, go to Hendrickson .com.

Hendrickson .com.

You can also order that edition and others at cvbbs .com, cvbbs

.com.

Don't forget about the discount, 5 discount, off the already heavily discounted prices

at cvbbs .com by entering the coupon code HAYKIN5, that's capital H,

lowercase a -y -k -i -n 5.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.