Beyond The Basics 8: The Church, misc

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Our father we thank you this morning for this opportunity to Just to meet and to look into what your words has about your church your body
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Lord we thank you for this wonderful warm weather For the blessings that you pour out on us constantly and most of all for your son
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Jesus Christ without whom Lord none of us would have any claim to Heaven any claim to righteousness
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Any claim to worth worthiness father we thank you for Jesus Christ who died for our sins in Christ's name we pray amen
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Well, good morning. I Thought we would start with something really really heavy.
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You know I like to really stretch your minds early on Sunday morning I You know as you all know
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I'm teaching this class on charismatic theology And I watch bad TV so that you don't have to that's kind of my job and For those of you are in the class
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I apologize for those who weren't For all of you, please turn to Ezekiel chapter 4
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That this just this just warms my heart. I have to say I mean you know
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I I mean I had several thoughts one of them. I didn't share the other night it just imagine a
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Thought question before I go to this important passage here. I mean they're all important, but for different reasons if you had a half an hour of national television and People were going to you, and you were on some religious network
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And they were going to your show to watch you for a half an hour. What do you suppose you might do? What would you do if you had half an hour of free
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TV time? the gospel message there's a thought and And it just occurred to me.
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I watched this guy for half an hour the other day. He never got within What's the furthest place in space?
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I? He never he never came close to the gospel not only did he not talk about sin which you generally don't expect sadly when you watch
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Christian TV, but there there was no concept of Jesus I mean
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Jesus was he you know what he called him. He actually called this is a just between us
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Peter Popoff, I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but the only really reference to Jesus was you know in Jesus name and Dr..
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Jesus you know the great physician who wants to heal you and He opened up his program, and you know during his commercials during this show he kept talking about Ezekiel 4 9
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Miracle manna He had these little wafers, and they were a miracle manna
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And he used Ezekiel for they were called Ezekiel 4 9 miracle manna, so let's let me just read
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Ezekiel 4 9 But as for you take wheat barley beans lentils millet and spelt
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Put them in one vessel and make them into bread for yourself You shall eat it according to the number of the days that you lie on your side 390 days now
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When we read that and we consider the concept of miracle manna
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What a couple of things a couple of problems that should jump right out at you One is there doesn't appear
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If we look at Ezekiel 4 9 to be a miracle here if a miracle is you know the supernatural power of God?
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Interrupting the natural processes and doing something spectacular. We don't have that here The other problem of course is this is not manna
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So Ezekiel 4 9 miracle manna, it's neither miracle nor manna other than that You know good to go, and he goes on to talk about how you can take this miracle manna
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Which again to me looks like a couple of graham crackers wrapped in cellophane? And if a person's sick,
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I really enjoy this part because you don't tell them to lie on their side for 390 days while they eat this Which would make some kind of sense
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I guess I don't know Instead you place the miracle manna on their forehead If you have bills that you can't pay you put the miracle manna on your bills.
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I don't understand that But again, you know if I had a half hour of national
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TV. I might want to spend some time Preaching the gospel, but that's just me anyway enough of that We're going to talk about the church.
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What is the church to begin with? What is the church
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Well, we talked about the church universal That is the brotherhood of believers, and we use a scary word here very scary
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Catholic But you notice I didn't capitalize it. Why didn't I capitalize it because it's small seed
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Catholic just means what? Universal there's nothing wrong with that word
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Nothing wrong with the word Catholic. Let's look at first Corinthians 12 13 and who has that Don't let the old guy beat you there
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Bruce Every single believer interesting to We were all baptized and the body made to drink of one spirit made to drink
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Wow Sounds like some sovereignty issues there, but whether Jews or Greeks were all in one body together
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Everywhere you go. There is one body one Universal Catholic Church Colossians 315 just to further
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Make the points Colossians 315. Who has that Steve?
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Okay, one body. I Mean there's a local body certainly the
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Colossians church would be one body But we could even extrapolate from first Corinthians 12
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Paul wasn't part of the Corinthian Church and he said we were all made to drink of one spirit there is a
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Universal nature to the church and that Greek word there that you see in Roman numeral number two there a gathering
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Ecclesia Which simply means and by the way when you see B dag B D a g that's
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Bauer Donker aren't ones gingrich. Those are the four guys and it used to be called
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Let me see if I can remember what it used to be called. I think it was Bauer gingrich Aren't and donker but donker still alive and so he keeps moving up the alphabet pretty soon
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It'll be donker Bauer, you know Hey the last survivor just gets to keep moving up the line as they revise it.
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That's how it goes. So It just means a people with shared belief a community a congregation
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Not necessarily programs and property but people and principles The number of calls we get at the church where people want to know
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What sort of programs do you have for our youth What sort of programs do you have for singles
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What sort of programs you have for fill -in -the -blank and then the other questions they want to know what version of the
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Bible? Do you teach from? What form of worship?
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Worship Well, we we like biblical worship. How about you people confuse music with worship all the time.
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What kind of music do you have? You know and some people are like well, you know, how many lead guitarists do you have because you know if we don't have three guitar players
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They're not going to come or if we have a guitar player, they're not going to come. It's not about programs and property
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I remember once An unbeliever called here wanted to get married here and I was just like have you seen the place?
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I Mean, I like the church. Don't get me wrong. But if you look at it the outside, you just don't look at it and go Oh, it's one of those classic.
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What's that the painter of lights? What's his name? You know, and he Thomas Kincaid, you know
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I mean he does those New England church things and I go Of course, I think those things see if I I mean if you look at it
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Rightly, it'll probably seat about a hundred people and have no classroom or office space, but you know, it looks nice in the painting people get hung up on the wrong things and even pastors
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Elders leaders can get caught up in those things I had a seminary prof who used to say, you know, and that's what
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I listed here the three or the four P's programs property people and principles He says churches tend to have and he would draw this like pyramid of how people do it
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And it's wrong He goes everything is wrong. He says it needs to be about people first principles programs property
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People come first principles Not people in the sense that we water down our principles, but people in the sense that we care for those that we have
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Number four the object of Christ's love. That is the church. Let's look at Ephesians 525.
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We often use this in counseling husbands, but it's also a good insight
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I think into The nature of the church and the value of the church
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Ephesians 525 Carl okay
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We love to go to that and say, you know husbands you need to love your wives Look at how Christ loved the church and that's really the key here this morning how
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Christ loved the church He died For the church the objects of Christ's love how much did he love the church?
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We're going to see a little bit later. He promised to build the church and he gave his life for the church
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And I'm gonna ask this at the end we probably won't get there for another week or two if Christ Loved the church so much that he gave up his life for her.
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How much should Christians love the church? Should they be indifferent to the church?
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Should we not love what Christ loved point
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B local church development? Initially centered in Jerusalem, you know, why would that be?
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Well because that's where the Christians were Kissed mocker says good news travels fast travelers who arrived in Jerusalem reported to the church the phenomenal influence of the
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Christian faith and the resultant increase of believers in the city of Antioch first the
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Jerusalem Church received the news about the Samaritans who had accepted the gospel in Consequence its members sent
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Peter and John to them talking about This group here next the mother church
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Jerusalem heard about the Gentiles in Antioch who accepted the gospel in response the church commissioned
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Barnabas as a representative of the Apostles Note then that the
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Jerusalem Church remained in charge of developments abroad in the beginning. That's the way it was why because that's where the believers that's where the
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Seasoned Saints the leadership was so to speak. They didn't have elders. They just had new converts in different places
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Let's look at Acts 11 22 Yes, go ahead.
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Okay So they did indeed send Barnabas off to Antioch.
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I mean think about it if this was the center of the
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Early church and we heard that there were believers in the other areas wouldn't we want to send men out to them to teach them?
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the Bible That's exactly what we would want to do because we'd want to make sure that they grew and did things in the right way
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It's interesting though that in Scripture There is no indication. There's no structure laid if we read through First and second
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Timothy Titus first Corinthians sometimes called the fourth pastoral epistle, but if we if we read through any of the epistles, we wouldn't see a
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Hierarchy set up to where for example Paul might say Titus once you've appointed elders.
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I want you to report to Archbishop so -and -so Cardinal so -and -so
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You know send a note with your nominees to the Pope. There is nothing like that in the scripture
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There's no indication of a central controlling authority overseers were to be appointed in Titus 1 5 it says in every city and That idea of appointed just means to assign someone a position of authority put in charge
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So it was this idea of him setting up all these churches in these different areas giving them elders
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Point C who is in the church? Well, I indicated already all believers are in the church the amazing part though from a
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New Testament Historical perspective would be that Jews and Gentiles were in the church.
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Let's look at Ephesians 2 11 through 16 It's an amazing
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Concept. I think we're familiar with Ephesians 2 up to verse 10 because So much of it deals with salvation
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Going back to verse 9 Well, I'll go back to 8 for by grace
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You have been saved through faith that not of yourselves is the gift of God not as a result of works so that no one may boast for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works
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Which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them then he goes on therefore
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Remember that formerly you the Gentiles in the flesh talking to the church in Ephesus who are called uncircumcision by the so -called circumcision
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Which is performed in the flesh by human hands, who's he talking about? Jews Saying listen the
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Jews say, you know, that's those Uncircumcised Philistines pagans
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Gentiles Verse 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ excluded from the
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Commonwealth of Israel and Strangers to the covenants of the promise having no hope and without God in the world
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But now in Christ Jesus you Who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ for he himself is our peace
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Who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall?
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What was the dividing wall? Let's keep reading by abolishing in his flesh the enmity which is the law of the
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Contained in ordinances So that in himself he might make the two into one new man
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Thus establishing peace and might reconcile them both into one body To God through the cross by having put to death the enmity the enmity was the law
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What was the purpose of the law? Why did God give the law? Well, we could come up with a couple reasons.
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What's one? Daniel says to point out our need for a
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Savior to show that we could never live up to the commandments of the law What why else Bruce a covenant between Israel and God exactly
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Charlie? school master to drive us to Christ What else did
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I do though, mr. Cooley? It's separated them.
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I mean he talks about it. It was a wall why because they weren't to be like the other people all their neighbors had their pagan idols and they lived a certain way and God said you guys are gonna be different you're gonna be set apart from my use and he gave them a bunch of rules and regulations a
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That nobody could keep perfectly but be because they weren't gonna be like these other heathen nations
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Right up to the the fabric that they wore everything about them was going to be different They were gonna be a distinct people a marked out people.
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And do you think that their neighbors said, oh, you know those Jews? They're a little funny there was
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Paul just told us enmity There was separation. There was discord. They didn't like them
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Think about it this way What happens at school What happens in the workplace?
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Doesn't happen to me very much here. But what happens when you try to represent Christ to a world that is hostile to Christ They go, you know,
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I really like that Steve He's a really nice guy who stands up for his principles and he just tells me the truth all the time
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Who do you think you are? You know you sit there and you've got all your goody -goody, you know
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That same way Same way there is enmity that is set up between the world and the people of God Jews and Gentiles together in one body a remarkable concept given everything that had happened and In Christ Jesus both are reconciled to God The enmity removed between them now who should lead the church?
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Who should lead the local assembly? I'm gonna spend some time in 1st
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Timothy, so we might as well turn their elders pastors Who has a 1st
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Timothy chapter 3? We'll see anybody else
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Charlie Thank you Yeah Okay, and you know typically
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I think we think that's a very high standard but I think as we go through this other than a
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Few things I think we'll see that this pretty much applies or should apply across the board to Christians obviously women should not be the husband of one wife, but they should be the wife of one husband, right?
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Let's look at Well the the concept first of all that they are accountable to God They are the ones who will
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Hebrews 13 17 you don't have to turn there says that they will give an accounting to God They will be held to account and his word look at the words there above reproach
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They must be above reproach. Well, what what do we do here? By the way, this would be a good time for me to address this
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You know somebody said are we going to have a and I need to send an email about this
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But are we gonna have somebody to replace? pastor Lewis We hope so, but there's no magic number of elders
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That's ever mentioned in the Bible you can have two or you can have a hundred and two
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I mean if we if we could have a hundred and fifty elders here our elders meetings might take forever
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But it would be a you know, that'd be a nice thing But there are a couple things that separate
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Elders from other folks First they must desire the office They must desire at the office
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And you know what? There are a lot of good reasons not to want to be an elder Because you
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There's a burden that goes along with that. I think if you talk to Pastor Dave or Pradeep they'll tell you not just the work that they are called upon to do but the burdens that they bear knowing
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What is going on in the body? Counseling people just the the constant concern that We bear for those who are suffering and struggling in different areas
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Must desire the office if you don't have that desire. You cannot be an elder Number three the husband of one wife literally that's in verse two
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Literally a one -woman man does not mean that he must be married. It's another question that came up a lot
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In terms of elders and deacons, you know, does that mean that he has to be married? No, it just means that if he is married his affections are directed only toward his wife
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There are a number of reasons why most people don't believe that this means that he has to be married For example, if we had an elder and his wife died does he need to step down because his wife died?
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I mean, there are all kinds of issues there Oh Moving along temperance verse two definition restrained in conduct self -controlled level -headed
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Doesn't fly off the handle Isn't known for you know going around town and thrashing people.
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I don't know, you know getting anything getting in trouble number five prudent,
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I mean listen to these Concepts you'll hear a lot of kind of repetitive themes
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Self -controlled level -headed prudent meaning thoughtful self -controlled This is a man who is under control
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Respectable Meaning having characteristics of folk admiration or delight an expression of high regard for person honorable also in verse two hospitable generous to guests
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Known for having a willingness to host others open their home. We won't have an elder who says, you know
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Nobody can come into my house. Are you kidding? That's not happening Again I think as Christians generally speaking we ought to be known as hospitable.
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We ought to be known as Respectable we ought to be known as prudent and temperance
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This next one again is a difficult And and again one that separates elders from Even deacons able to teach it literally means skillful in teaching skilled in teaching
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Meaning someone who when they open up the Bible when they preach a sermon whatever they're doing It it it makes sense.
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They're able to do it and they do it. Well number nine
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Not Addicted to wine or pugnacious and I put those two together Because in many ways
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I think they go together a Drunkard one who is known to drink a lot or a bully which is the pugnacious part
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Obviously if someone is given to drinking typically the bully part will follow
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There aren't many I mean I've probably dealt with more than my fair share of drunk people over the course of my lifetime
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Really not a great aspect of the job and There are very few
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Drunks when they when they are drunk who are nice Most of them are very belligerent and you know what?
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I I recall I arrested this woman For drunk once and she was just as obnoxious as could be until we got her to the station
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She settled down. You know what? She wrote a letter to the station thanking me for arresting her, you know, so you don't get that all the time, but That was nice, you know number ten, but gentle And I capitalized the but there because it is the strong contrast in the
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Greek Going to verse 3 so the idea being look not a drunkard not a bully but quite the opposite gentle Not insisting this is what the word means not insisting on every right of letter of law or custom yielding kind courteous tolerance in the old -fashioned sense
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When tolerance used to mean tolerance Also peaceable in verse 3 which
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Freyberg says not disposed to fight or quarrel Again, getting back to that concept of being self -controlled
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Not flying off the handle Number 12 free from the love of money
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Still in verse 3 not loving money not greedy not someone who's known for making a buck on The back of someone else and you know again getting back to these false teachers
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You just go almost every single one of them should be disqualified Immediately, you just turn on the
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TV and you go. Okay from beginning to end. It's money money money. No gospel. I Think they like money a lot more than they
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Do people? Number 13. He must be one who manages his own household.
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Well keeping his children under control in verses 4 and 5 Look at what
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Stott says Paul draws an analogy between the pastor's family and God's Church. Indeed.
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He uses the word oikos household of both of both
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Meaning talking about the pastor's family in the church in verses 4 5 and 15
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So the married pastor is called to leadership in two families His and God's and the former is to be the training ground for the latter
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The argument is straightforward if he cannot look after his own family He cannot be expected to look after God's if a man's household is falling apart
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We're not going to call him into leadership in the church Makes sense, right?
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It's a demonstration of His capacity for managing his household
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Doesn't always translate perfectly to the church, but it's a good indicator number 14 not a new converts and And that by the way, the
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V is an N in the Greek so it's neo photo photos I Even transliterated it for you.
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Whoo -hoo From which we get neophytes. We all know what a neophyte is. It's some new guy play a
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Board game and you know the first time somebody plays the game They're probably either gonna like it or hate it
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But if somebody does really well we go hey, that was pretty good for a neophyte for a first -timer a good job
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But we're not going to take a new converts and say hey you're in charge of the church congratulations
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That'd be foolish and yet in our culture where we value so much celebrity, you know
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The first time somebody famous gets saved they want to trot them out up on the stage They want to give them some kind of platform and have them testify and basically have people start following them
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They almost thrust them into leadership. I mean, I remember a few years ago, and I don't know where this guy is
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Spiritually, I have no idea but you know the hot rumor on the Internet four or five years ago Was it
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Alice Cooper, you know for those of you as old as me, you probably remember who he is I don't even know what his real name is Was saved
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And I'm going well, I don't know, you know, I mean, hey several years ago. We heard Jane Fonda was saved.
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I don't know But the point is we don't take somebody who just makes a profession of faith and Throw them up as a leader or 15
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He must have a good reputation with those outside the church So that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil
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Look, we've already talked about he must be above reproach. He has to be
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He has to have a good reputation within the church and he also must have a good reputation outside the church
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Stott says this by outsiders Paul means the non -christian public
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He wants the people of God to remember that the world is watching them again Think about how this applies to every single person not just elders
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The world is watching them to be wise in their behavior towards Outsiders and to win their respect.
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This is especially true or especially true of pastors It has been said that candidates must be above reproach now
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Paul Emphasizes they must have a good reputation outside as well as inside the church He evidently thinks of the pastorate as a public office requiring public esteem
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I mean, it's so funny to me. I go to the bank and they're Pastor Steve, I mean it it's a good thing.
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I mean, it's a good thing for them to think of it as Now, this is funny. Where was I this happened?
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Oh, I was visiting Judy Fruze dead a few weeks ago before he
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Passed away and I came out of the Nolwood Convalescent Hospital I was walking out.
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I don't know what I was wearing but a lady is Coming in as I'm going out and she goes good afternoon father and I go
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But I wasn't wearing a collar by the way. I just thought it was funny But I mean there are you know people automatically if you put that on I don't care who you are
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Probably if you're a woman if you if you you know walk around wearing that people are just automatically gonna respect you because you know of the uniform or whatever
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But he thinks that the office of the pastorate Should be held in public esteem
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Otherwise those who hold it will suffer public disgrace and fall into the devil's trap that is in his malicious
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Eagerness to discredit the gospel the devil does his best to discredit the ministers of the gospel
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It is an old trick with a long history the devil has used it for centuries it remains an effective stratagem today
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How many times do we see? so -called evangelical ministers involved in You know some kind of major sexual scandal.
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There was a man in Colorado a few years ago allegedly, you know with a homosexual prostitute and that was on the news for several days and So what's the underlying you know when it's on the news for several days, what's the underlying theme that they're trying to get across?
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Not oh, we should have compassion for this man. But well, how can the guy be a
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Christian or look he's a leader? He's a leader. How can you take this
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Christianity stuff? Seriously? Look what happened to this guy? He's no different than the rest of you Daniel did he know
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No, that's shocking Daniel was just saying that that man yesterday came out and said the church has a wrong view of I presume on the homosexual issue
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It's amazing how You know when you're caught up in a sin all of a sudden the church is wrong about that but you discredit the message by attacking the messenger
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I Mean so much of what we see When Paul is really defending himself in 1st and 2nd
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Corinthians against the The false apostles why because they were attacking him personally as a means to do what to discredit the gospel?
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And this is as old as that This is what they do This is what false teachers do.
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This is what Satan does and So the idea here is don't make it easy
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Pick people have a good reputation outside of the church as well as inside the church to lead
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The men must be up to that level Deacons I'm not going to read all the requirements for deacons
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But again similar requirements except they need not be able to teach and I would just challenge every single man here you ought to look at these list of Qualifications and think you know what
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I should be living like this for every woman here You should be looking down that list of qualifications and applying it to your own life
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Why because it really is the Christian life. This is what we should all be doing We should all want to have a reputation outside of the church.
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That is good and inside the church That is good. We should be known for being patient and long -suffering
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Not being greedy Now in terms of we're talking about church government
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And let's talk about bishops popes priests Etc.
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This is one of my favorite verses in the entire Bible I have to say let's look at Galatians 2 and who has verse 11 pretty
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Okay. Now who is who is Cephas? Peter and why would why did he stand condemned?
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I mean we're talking about you know the head of the church Why do you stand condemned
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Charlie started floating back to the law -keeping, right and So think about this
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Catholic historians will say that who was the first Pope? Peter So here's
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Paul noticing that Peter is slipping back into Judaism. He's mixing. He's he's lost sight
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He when he's in sin He's he's adding to the law of grace by adding all these works because it's this kind of idea that well
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I'm a Christian, but I still am a Jew and I still need to obey certain things in the Jewish law And so what does
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Paul do Paul goes to and so is that a theological issue or not a theological issue?
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It's a theological issue right Because Peter is sliding back
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He's in sin He's mixing bad theology with good theology. And any time you mix bad theology with good theology you get bad theology
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And so Paul comes to Peter the alleged first Pope and He opposed him to his face
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That's why I go that Paul was pretty bold guy And then he says because he stood condemned
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Strong very strong. There is no indication of What Spurgeon and others have called potpourri, it just doesn't and not potpourri
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Yeah, which is a very nice thing, thank you But That the office of the papacy none of those things exist anywhere in the
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New Testament and of course, you know if you talk to a Catholic theologian, they'll say well, you know, you just don't understand
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Matthew 16 18 where Jesus says You know upon this rock.
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I will build my church and he's talking about Peter. Well, he may well be I mean That's a difficult passage. The question is was he talking about him in a
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Pope sense and There's no indication of that any more than there's any sense
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In hail favored one where the angel talks to Mary that that means that she was born without sin
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I mean, that's these are the sort of extrapolations they make and Just as a little
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Side show here Roman Catholic I speak for a living
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Roman Catholicism says they believe scripture is the ultimate authority, but then they bring tradition and church teaching and they say we also have these sources and when church teaching or A papal authority contradicts scripture which one loses
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Scripture and so scripture is not the ultimate authority. Yes Right.
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No, he doesn't very clearly not good Good point.
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I mean there there just no is is no indication of that. Okay, we do have though a priesthood of all believers
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Let's look at first Peter chapter 2 and by the way, this is not an exhortation to go out and buy collars
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Wear them around town so that we can all be priests, right? Who has that?
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Just verses 5 and 9. I mean we could read all in between there. I guess we can't all read it
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You also as living stones are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ For this is contained in Scripture Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone a precious cornerstone and he who believes in him talking about the
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Lord Will not be disappointed This precious value then is for you who believe but for those who disbelieve the stone which the builders rejected this became the very cornerstone and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word and To this doom.
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They were also appointed but you are a chosen race a royal priesthood a holy nation a people for God's own possession so that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness and into his marvelous light
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We are all priests in this sense that we are set apart We are a holy nation a called -out people a people for God's own possession
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Why When you see those words so that it explains why so that You may proclaim the excellencies.
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We are to proclaim Christ. He has called us out of darkness into his marvelous light there is no indication of some kind of priest again the way
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Is practiced where you know, somebody needs to sit there and take your confession all these kind of things just do not exist in the
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Bible let's talk about women elders women pastors, I just Elaine sent a note that a church.
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I've driven by there a couple times st. John's and I think it's in Worcester It's right on the Worcester Holden border it's closing st.
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John's Episcopal Church and I suppose that means that their Pastorette Will be moving on as well.
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So I I don't know. What's the correct term? Is it past arena? I don't know
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But I'm sure she's nicely. I'm not it's just kind of when you read this you just go.
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I I don't understand how they get this I if we were to look Well, let's just go back to first Timothy 3 for a moment.
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It is a trustworthy statement if any man Aspires to the office of an overseer.
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It would have been very easy for Paul to write if any one if any person he could have done that but he didn't say that said if any man and if we go through it is consistently male well, why
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Well, if we look back in first Timothy chapter 2 We'll see why first Timothy 2 verses 9 to 15
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Likewise I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing modestly and discreetly Not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments but rather by means of good works as is proper for women making a claim to godliness a woman must
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Quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness, but I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man
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But to remain quiet. Well, I guess if a church was entirely filled with women you could
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Maybe have some kind of female leadership I don't know if it sure it's like that Verse 13 for it was
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Adam who was first created and then Eve and it was not Adam who is deceived But the woman being deceived fell into transgression
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But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self -restraint
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Listening going back to verse 14. He says Here's the reason women are not to exercise authority.
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They're not teach men why? Because it was not Adam who was deceived but Eve This is part of the fall.
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This is one of the consequences of the fall. Women are not to be in church leadership and The argument is often made well this refers to that particular culture
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Paul was only addressing this particular church Well, the problem was he didn't nail it to that church.
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He took it back to creation He went back to the very beginning he said look
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Eve fell first and As a result of that women are not to teach
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I don't know how you can put that on a particular church or a particular situation since That would be like saying
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That you know, it would be essentially the same as saying that Adam's sin is not passed on to everyone.
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That's just not right Daniel okay.
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So the idea being the Daniel was just saying he's also heard it Explained this way if we go back to verse 12
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But I do not allow a wife to teach or exercise authority over a husband again.
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I think that's a potential Scenario because you have to be open to the idea that a woman the word for woman can be translated wife and the word for Man can be translated husband
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But you have to continue on to verse 13 For it was Adam who was first created and then Eve and then 14 and it was not
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Adam who was deceived But the woman being deceived fell into transgression so I To limit it to a household, especially
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If you just continue on to verse or to chapter 3 It's not like you know, I mean if Paul just ended it at verse or a chapter 2 that might be a legitimate argument
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But he doesn't stop there. He continues to build on the same argument. I Mean we have these chapter divisions now
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But Paul didn't write those chapter divisions So it would have been part of his same flow of arguments
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He's saying listen women can't be in leadership and here's who needs to be in leadership husbands
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Men well men An overseer then must be above reproach the husband of one wife and you can't change that to the wife of one husband
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It's just not gonna work. You can't do that grammatically Yes, right
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Good excellent point. Yeah, that's a verse 15 and chapter 3. That's the way to contact yourselves in the household of God So yeah that does
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Close the door on that argument. I Have a
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Point that you're trying to prove again I said this I guess I've been saying this in class on Thursday nights when someone says and this is the concept now
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You know, well those those concepts are dated those concepts are you know, they're misunderstood
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They're cultural or whatever and we have new truth We have to update the scriptures.
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We have to update doctrine Run Don't walk run for the exits because anybody who has anything new is adding to What is to be done?
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I also have first Corinthians 14 verses 34 35 and you know, you can argue this is the
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Corinthian Church, but then They won't argue that anywhere else. These principles are only for the
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Corinthian Church first Corinthians 14 34 35 the women are to keep silent in the churches
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For they are not permitted to speak but are to subject themselves Just as the law also says if they desire to learn anything
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Let them ask their own husbands at home for it is improper for a woman to speak in church But it's okay for her to preach a little asterisk caveat