Refuting A Mormon's Refutation Of Jeff Durbin

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When the scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment, He replied, You shall love the

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So, why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this? It had everything to do with how we talk about the

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What is this called, the Apology Academy? It's just called THE Academy. Okay. What's up, everybody?

01:39

My name is Pastor Jeff Durbin, and you're watching Collision Today. I'm going to be interacting with an atheist on TikTok.

01:46

So here we go. Unsupervised and unhinged. Welcome back to Cultus the

01:52

Aftermath. Hey, everybody.

02:00

Welcome back to another episode of Ask Me Anything. You are watching Apologia Radio's after show exclusively for all access.

02:19

Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it. Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite?

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We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah. Delusional's okay in your world view. I'm an animal.

02:35

You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay.

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It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me. What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Right. Don't go into the world and make homies.

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Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pasta.

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When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation,

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I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

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Once for all delivered to the saints. That's Jude verse 3. Jude verse 4. Jude verse 24 says, Amen. That's Jude written in the first century, y 'all.

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Earnestly contend for the faith, which was once for all delivered to the saints. It is a dominion, majesty, and authority that is now and forever that was said in the first century.

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Which is why, of course, Christians have believed that restorationist movements are not possible.

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They cannot be. It is impossible. More will be said about that today's episode today, but it's once for all delivered to the saints.

04:53

Kind of faith. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is

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Today, I want to announce we're actually doing some of our new content's actually happening today. So here's what it's going to look like.

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So we can't thank you enough. We mean that with all of our hearts. As I always announce, if you don't have a BonsonU account right now, you're missing out.

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You ready? Yeah. Yeah? Are you ready? So we haven't really announced it, have we?

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We did, yeah, two weeks ago. Oh, okay. Yeah. When I wasn't here. Yeah, the joys. I don't like to talk about it. Yeah, I don't,

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I'm trying not to talk about it until it actually happens. I don't like to do things, just pretend. What are we even talking about? Just push the grief off.

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Just push the grief off. The joy, the girl is moving with her husband and daughter to Louisiana.

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Louisiana. Louisiana is the reason they call it that. You're still gonna have joy. They're winning there. Stuff happening.

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It's just that she won't actually be sitting here and you know, the history of Apologia, just as you guys are getting on today, the history of Apologia is first I was doing a show called

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Redemption Radio, Terrestrial Radio here in Arizona, and then that moved into doing

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Apologia Radio. We were doing that together at the very start. It was wild and crazy and you guys can listen to some of those episodes.

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They're all up at ApologiaStudios .com. The whole history is there and that moved into Apologia Studios and now here we are.

09:54

But all good things must come to an end. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I mean, I feel like the whole studio is gonna keep happening.

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Yeah, but it just won't be the same. Yeah. We walked past Joy's office and it's just empty right now because she's clearing us, which

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I don't know why you had to clear it out so early. Yes, that's a good question. There's no reason to make us feel that much pain for that length of time.

10:14

You couldn't wait till like the last minute. You could have waited till two days before. He didn't have to do this to us. He could have done it in like the middle of the night when no one was here.

10:20

Yeah, just sticking finger in the wound, right? What's Joy doing? Oh, she's moving her stuff. What are you gonna do with the office?

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Well, we're not gonna be here much longer anyways. We're moving the studio anyways. So, you know, we're just gonna blow it up. I was gonna recommend that.

10:34

Just like hang a little rope in front of it. That's just like... Take a sledgehammer, break things. This once was

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Joy's office. Don't ever touch anything like Elvis's house. No one is allowed to use it ever again. You want me to just leave everything?

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Just leave it. It's like that scene in Office Space. We're gonna take all of your stuff out to like the desert and just smash it. Just cuz.

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And now you know why I packed up everything so early. Okay, touche.

10:58

Wise decision. Is it warm in here? It's warm in here, isn't it? Yeah, cuz the AC is not working. Yeah. Hey, uh, someone over there.

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Can you guys turn the AC down like crazy on that side? That way we don't die over here. It's Arizona.

11:10

It's getting hot. We have to turn the AC off in this room. You're gonna hear it come through the microphones.

11:17

So we always have to suffer through these shows and we do it because we love you. We sweat and we bleed in this room.

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And I sweat all the time. You do. You are a sweaty person. Usually Luke sets up a little fan under the table.

11:29

Just that side over there, Christine. Christine is literally crawling. Yeah. Oh Did you? Oh, we're okay. We're okay.

11:36

Thank you, Christine. Christine is amazing. She literally was crawling on the ground. Oh, yeah. Like a toddler.

11:41

Yeah, Christine will do whatever you need her to do. Picking up the snacks I dropped. You can always trust her.

11:48

All right. So hey, we are doing the show today to talk about What's the name of the channel again?

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Make sure I get this right here. So we ate something. It is Thoughtful Faith. That's it.

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The title of the video is Jeff Durbin Destroyed with Facts and Logic. There's I think four parts of this.

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Three or four parts of this. And three. Three parts. Okay, so he goes. How long are they?

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Not very long. The longest is like 16 minutes. Oh, yeah, that's right. So he had some stuff to say.

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Yeah. At least a fair amount. Six minutes is the first one. So we're gonna go into I think today.

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Hopefully we get to two of them today. So there's part one, part two, the apostasy and the nature of God. And so Thoughtful Faith.

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This guy is a Latter -day Saint. He is a Mormon. He tries to engage a bit with a video that we did years ago outside of the temple in Salt Lake City at about 1 30 a .m.

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Remember that? Yeah, I'll never forget that. Never forget that. We were looking in the windows of Brigham's house and there was nobody there.

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Yeah, so we filmed this video about 1 30 a .m. And they're sort of off the cuff and God has used the video of the

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Gospel for Mormons to bring a lot of Latter -day Saints to Christ into a saving relationship with the true

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Christ. And it's been a blessing. It's sort of used as an online tract for a lot of people.

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And so that's the video he's responding to, the Gospel for Mormons. And I think we'll just go ahead and get right into it.

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I'll just say it literally is an online track because we have the track that we hand out now is that video and actually has a

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QR code that goes to that video. Yeah, so I'll just start with some preliminary thoughts that I have. Thoughtful Faith, I believe that based upon what

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I saw here and what we'll show to everybody here, I believe that something like this would be an embarrassment to the history of your platform, your organization.

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I don't... And I want to look, I want to take guys seriously. You know, there's opponents to the

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Christian faith that I take very, very seriously. You know, you guys have heard me say before that Christopher Hitchens is one of my favorite atheists in history and in the world.

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I think the man had a very, very strong mind. I think he was a worthy opponent to the

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Christian worldview based upon how he could articulate his position. I think, of course, his position was bankrupt philosophically, but I take him seriously as an opponent and you know, there's people in other religions that I take very, very seriously as opponents.

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I know they're trying to be careful. I know that they want to have integrity in how they deal with particular things.

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Like, you know, for example, Christopher Hitchens, as much as he railed against God and just said awful things against God, the man did try to have integrity when he represented the

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Christian faith and what they believed. You could see that that was a pattern for him. That's why I liked him so much. You know, he was amusing at times even in how he would try to fight against the

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Christian faith. I think I would have really enjoyed time with Christopher Hitchens. He's somebody I'd like to hang out with, basically.

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And I have great respect for him because he tried to have integrity with how he engaged with things. And something like this with thoughtful faith, don't have a lot of respect for.

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I'll say it off the bat. I have a lot of respect for a lot of opponents of Christianity. Not a lot of respect for this because I wouldn't call this actually anyone destroyed with facts and logic.

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I would call this slight of hand. Slight of hand, the abuse of history, lying to your audience about history.

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And we'll get to that in the video itself where he'll make claims about theological positions that have literally nothing to do historically with his position when he talks about theosis and things like that.

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So I think the man is ignorant. He's ignorant of history. And I think that he, like many Mormon apologists, actually abuses scholarship and abuses history even to make his point.

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And that's just not helpful, right? So if I misrepresent Mormon apostles and prophets in their statements, that's on me.

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And it's something I would have to commit to not doing. This man misrepresents Michael Heiser in this video.

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He misrepresents a theological position in church history. And so I just don't have a lot of respect for opponents to the

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Christian faith like this one because of the lack of integrity and the messiness.

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And so that's my initial thoughts. And of course you're going to say, well, Jeff, you got to prove that. And that's what we're doing today.

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I was just going to say my opening thoughts besides what you just said.

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His name is Jacob, by the way. And forgive me, my allergies are going bonkers. Welcome to Arizona.

16:38

Yeah, like the wind kicked up yesterday and now I can't. I know, my eyes feel like, I don't know.

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I sound like the Hodge twins today. My eyes get all dry and painful. Sorry, so way off track there.

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I've noticed a trend recently and I'm sure this isn't unique to this generation, but it seems like a lot of the older Mormons that we've engaged are just very gracious and kind and they're obviously set in their ways, you know, and they they firmly believe what they're saying is the truth, which

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I respect that they're committed to that. But a lot of these younger guys are just smug, haughty, arrogant, you know, and you'll see that in some of this video where he just kind of takes a little pot shots.

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You know, and it's just like, come on, man, like don't, let's, there's nothing cute about that. Like, you know, if you're gonna, like I'm all about let's have a discussion about truth, but there's no reason to like be personal about it and kind of be rude.

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So anyways, yeah, that's my thoughts. Yeah, I think that, and like I said, the key issue for me in dealing with something like this is

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I want to respect an opponent of the Christian faith. You know, I'll just give an example, like someone like Trent Horne is a

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Roman Catholic apologist. I really like the guy. I really like the guy. I know that Trent Horne, as much as I believe that he gets the gospel wrong and he's even gotten some historical stuff wrong before in church history, and you just see the whole pattern in the man's life that he wants to be held to the standard of integrity and how he deals with things.

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He's just, he just seems like a really nice guy to get along with, and he's an opponent to the gospel itself,

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I believe, and he knows that I believe that, and he believes I am as well. But I have respect for someone like him.

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I don't have respect for, and let me just give you, there's a bit of a history here, just, and I know that we're prolonging the getting to the video, but I want you to hear this.

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This is the standard MO of Mormon apologists.

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So you can go all the way back to like the history of like Dr. Walter Martin versus Van Hale. You can check that out, everybody.

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Just go, just YouTube after this, Dr. Walter Martin and Van Hale. Listen to the debate that Walter Martin had with Van Hale, and you'll see that Martin had the same problem with Van Hale that we're having with thoughtful faith, and that is that it's the abuse of church history.

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It's the abuse of other people's comments. It's the mixing of categories. It's the sleight of hand, honestly.

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Same problem existed after Martin and Van Hale with Dr. James White and Tanner.

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Same issue where they debated the issue of can men become gods, where Tanner does the same thing and gets absolutely refuted publicly, that thoughtful, the thoughtful faith channel does, and that is taking quotes from church history that have a completely different category and background and understanding, and trying to apply that to Mormon thought about men becoming gods in the issue of theosis.

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Same problem. Mormon prophets, sorry, Mormon apologists have a tendency to do those sorts of things, like quote mine from church history, take things that have literally nothing to do with the same categories, and say, look, these church fathers said this, too, and it's like, well, let's go back and read them.

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Were they saying what you're saying? Quite the opposite. And so it's sort of, it's a feature, it seems, of Mormon apologetics, is that you do these sorts of things.

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You engage in this. So all that lead in... One other quick thing, sorry. Yeah. I wanted to mention at the beginning, we talked about this.

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You will notice, as we go through, there also seems to be a slight shift in some

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Mormon theology with some of these younger guys. Yeah, yeah. Which we'll get into, but I wanted to give you a heads up before we get into it, so you can be listening.

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Yeah, you're making a good point. We're not gonna get to it today, but I think it's the third one where he talks about justification, faith works, all that discussion.

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Yeah, you'll see a marked difference between classic Mormons, even guys we know today that are like legit

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Mormons, classic Mormons, not these new ones, that actually believe what their church teaches, versus the guys today that just so badly want to blend in with the

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Christian church, whereas historically they would refer to us as Gentiles. There's a church of God. There's a church of the devil.

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These new guys are just like, no, we're just part of you. We believe kind of the same things, and it's all, yeah, we believe it's all grace and faith.

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You know, conversations I was having at the end of the 90s and early 2000s, they would have taken you to task on what you're saying, and so it's just, it's an attempt to blend in with Christianity.

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It's just like the, it's just like the the new modern marketing ploy, the marketing strategy of the

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Mormon Church today, like we're no longer known as the Mormons. Don't bother going to mormon .org any longer. We're not

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Mormons. We're the Church of Jesus Christ, and they just want so desperately to fit in with mainstream

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Christianity, and that's just, that's just not their history. So here we go. This is

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Thoughtful Faith, Jeff Durbin Destroy the Facts and Logic Part 1. So there's a very popular video by the

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Protestant pastor Jeff Durbin where he goes after the church. His video, which is actually really well done as far as music, cinematography, and style, was sadly pretty underwhelming for any serious student of theology, as it basically just hit on the same old tropes about Mormons that we hear all the time.

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Specifically, the video focused on three main lines of attack. The first was that the Bible refutes the possibility of a restoration.

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Second was that the Latter -day Saint conception of God is incompatible with the Bible, and third is that we believe we earn our way to heaven via good works.

22:35

So in this video, I'm gonna cut through the cool music and the good cinematography and examine if Jeff is making any solid arguments.

22:43

So just, just for fun, just for background, because I think it'd be good for you to know.

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Actually, I think the cinematography was not great. The lighting was terrible, and it's just, it was the very beginning of Apologia Studios.

22:56

We had a flight you and I were taking. You actually just walked in my door with the bags. We were taking a flight to go to Moscow, Idaho, and we got the notification that our flight was canceled, and we needed to get to Moscow, and so we tried to figure out a new way to get there, and they said, well, the only way to get there tomorrow early is to tonight fly into Salt Lake and stay the night for a couple of hours, basically.

23:23

And so we did it. We hopped on that plane. We got to Salt Lake City, and it was super late, and it was like, hey, we're here in Salt Lake City.

23:30

I mean, it's like one in the morning, but let's go to the temple, and let's film something to like reach Mormons with the gospel.

23:36

And so you'll, it's funny when I watch the video, I know how difficult that was for me, because it was so bitterly cold that night, and the guys had me in the car with the heat turned way up to get me all heated up, and then

23:49

Marcus was outside getting the camera set up. He's all ready to go, and he was like, all right, ready, go, and like ran out, stood in front of the camera, and just started going.

23:57

Yeah, I actually waited outside because it was too hot in the car. Yeah, for me. Yeah, it was a cookie. We could bake things in there for sure.

24:03

You put some cookies on the dashboard, I think. So that's how the video happened. It was like 1 .30 in the morning, and I think we went back to the hotel, got like two or three hours of sleep, and then hopped on a plane in Salt Lake City to Washington, then on to Moscow, Idaho, but that's how, that's how it happened.

24:17

I appreciate the compliments and with the music and the aesthetics, and I'll just say that we believe that God is good at what he does.

24:26

He's innovative. He creates out of nothing. He's creative, and we should reflect his glory, so if we make content, we want to do our best to be good artists and make things beautiful, because God makes beautiful things, and so I appreciate the compliment, and he called me young.

24:39

Glad to hear that. I'm 45 years old now. Love to hear that I'm young. People still think I'm young -ish.

24:45

I got legitimately carded at a Trader Joe's the other day, and I was like, I don't know if this guy's just flattering me or what, but he was like looking at my picture even.

24:55

He's scrutinizing it? I was like, I'm 34. I like this. Okay. If anything,

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I just assumed he was like trying to be nice, I guess. Yeah, but I'll take it. You want to card me?

25:09

I'm fine with that. That happens to me every once in a while. The music is pretty good, though.

25:18

It is. So here's the thing. Mormons often say, but we're

25:26

Christian too, but why don't you just leave us alone? We're just another denomination. We're, I mean, it's in our name, the

25:32

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. It's not about Mormon underwear.

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It's not about coffee and tea and tobacco products and those sorts of things. It's really more foundational.

25:44

It's a question of what God do you worship? Who is God? And how do

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I come to know God? Again, the music and the temple in the background and the cool young pastor with the beard is, this is all really well done, so kudos to that.

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And yes, I actually agree. The foundational things are exactly where we have important distinction.

26:07

But let's get past the cool aesthetics and see what the arguments are that he brings to the table.

26:13

Mormonism at the very beginning began with a lie, and the lie was that Heavenly Father came to Joseph Smith and told him to join none of the churches for they were all wrong.

26:26

All their creeds were an abomination. All the professors, that's the Christians, were all corrupted. Easy there,

26:32

Jeff. That's your interpretation, not ours. Hold on real fast. Very important.

26:37

I didn't interpret anything. I quoted it. Easy now,

26:43

Jeff. That's your interpretation. That's his response to my quoting from the

26:51

First Vision account. That's your interpretation. Did you hear something in those words that actually confirm what we say about your church's teaching, that all of their professors are corrupt, all their creeds are wrong, all their creeds?

27:06

Let me just go ahead and do this. I'll go officially to the website. This is from the churchofjesuschrist .org.

27:15

Used to be mormon .org. Now it's churchofjesuschrist .org. I wonder how much they paid for that domain name.

27:21

A lot. Yeah. Yeah, for real. There is no way that was available. Someone had that and they probably paid a good penny for that one.

27:30

That's possible. It's shame on you for selling out to the Mormons, whoever you are. Yeah, seriously. You know, churchofjesuschrist .org.

27:36

So this is the modern official First Vision account.

27:42

If you guys look at the history of the First Vision account, even the churchofjesuschrist .org admits now the existence of all the differing

27:50

First Vision accounts. There is no way to make them come together in a coherent way.

27:56

They are different. The First Vision account wasn't a part of the early Mormon story.

28:01

It came later. But in the official version that Mormon missionaries will give to you when they come to your house on your first visit is this one.

28:11

Joseph Smith says, and this is really interesting, but exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me and at the very moment when

28:19

I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction, not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world who had just marvelous power as I had never before in any being, never felt before in any being, just at this moment of great alarm,

28:35

I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head above the brightness of the sun which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

28:41

This is Joseph Smith giving his story, at least again today, the official

28:48

First Vision account, they will read to you, of going to inquire which church is right.

28:54

So he says this, My object in going to inquire the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right that I might know which to join.

29:01

No sooner therefore did I get possession of myself so as to be able to speak than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light which of all the sects was right, for at that this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong and which

29:17

I should join. So what's he say there? It never in my mind before that all were wrong, all were wrong.

29:26

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong.

29:32

And the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt, that they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

29:42

They teach for doctrines the commandments of men having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

29:48

He again forbade me to join any of them and many other things did he say unto me.

29:54

So I was just quoting. So if I quote the First Vision account, I just give the words, that's it, and you stop and say that's your interpretation.

30:05

Do you hear something in those words that is God saying to Joseph Smith that all the churches are wrong, that they're all wrong, all their creeds are an abomination, all their professors are corrupt?

30:18

Interesting. I think it says what it says, and classic Mormons absolutely undeniably believe that.

30:24

They used to call us Gentiles. See, your forbearers used to call us

30:29

Christians Gentiles, and they would happily say, yeah, there's a church of God, and there's a church of the devil.

30:36

You, this is from the Book of Mormon, you are from the church of the devil. And so, you know, your interpretation,

30:45

I mean, I think it speaks for itself. It says what it says. I mean, this is one of those examples, like I mentioned, this is a shift.

30:53

Like you just said, they didn't used to think this way and refer to us this way.

30:59

And what he's about to say in response to that, they didn't used to say that. That's a new thing. Yeah. They believed in a complete apostasy.

31:06

Yeah, there's quite, we can do a whole entire episode just reading quote after quote after quote after quote from Mormon prophets and apostles about the great apostasy, it being total and complete.

31:18

And I'll give an example here. Twelfth President Spencer W. Kimball, it says, he says this in the teachings of Spencer W.

31:25

Kimball, page 423. He says, this is not a continuous church, nor is it one that has been reformed or redeemed.

31:34

Catch that. Spencer Kimball saying that the Mormon Church is not a church that has been continued or reformed or redeemed.

31:46

The language is not language of reformation and continuation to any degree. Mormon prophets and apostles have always decried any thought like that.

31:55

They said restoration. The church was gone from the earth.

32:01

And so here's what it says. It was lost. I'll say it again. This is the

32:06

Mormon prophet saying it was lost. The gospel with its powers and blessings sometime after the

32:14

Savior's crucifixion and the loss of his apostles, the laws were changed, the ordinances were changed, and the everlasting covenant was broken that the

32:22

Lord Jesus Christ gave to his people in those days. There was a long period of centuries when the gospel, ready?

32:29

Ready? When the gospel was not available to people on this earth because it had been changed.

32:39

What does lost mean? What does not available on earth mean?

32:46

That it's gone, that it has been destroyed. 13th President Ezra Taft Benson.

32:53

As the restored church, we affirm with the passing of the Apostolic Age, the church drifted into a condition of apostasy that succession in the priesthood was broken and that the church as an earthly organization operating under divine direction and having authority to officiate in spiritual ordinances ceased to exist.

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Got that? Very important. Ezra Taft Benson, prophet of the Mormon Church.

33:19

He says that the church ceased to exist. This is attested by history.

33:27

We affirm also that all this was foreseen and predicted by the Apostles when they were living, yea, and by the

33:33

Master in his day. The apostasy had started during the days of the Apostles and was referred to frequently by them.

33:40

God the Son, this is Benson again, told Joseph Smith not to join any of the churches.

33:47

Joseph was to learn that the Lord's true church was not on the earth. The Lord's true church was not on the earth.

33:55

So I'm sorry, thoughtful faith, not very thoughtful of you. Your interpretation?

34:01

We could do this for days. Do you, would you want to? Would you want to go through the quote after quote after quote in context of your prophets and Apostles saying that it was lost, that it ceased to exist, that it was gone from the earth, and that this is not

34:16

Reformation. We are not a continuing church. We are a restoration because it ceased to exist on the earth.

34:24

That was Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Reports, October 1949, page 26, and Ezra Taft Benson, Listen to the

34:31

Prophet's Voice, Ensign Conference Edition, January 1973, page 58.

34:38

We could, we could go on. There's plenty more here, but I think you get the point. Sorry, we're not getting very far very fast, but this actually brings up a really good point.

34:47

And again, this is a shift with the younger guys, is this idea that we can disagree with the prophets of old because the prophets of old may not have had it right.

35:01

And actually there was, at the General Conference this year, one of the main talks was, and I don't have the quote in front of me, but basically he's, the guy, the their prophet now said that the prophecies of old don't age well, like wine, for example, or things that, you know, that gain value over time.

35:21

And the point he was making is that we can say things now that disagree with things in the past because we have new revelation.

35:29

And so there's a definite shift in these younger guys where they're, they have no problem, even if, even if we were to talk to this

35:36

Jacob and Jefferson present that stuff, he may say, yeah, well, they're, they were wrong. Or yeah, we have new revelation.

35:43

I mean, I had a conversation with, with Hayden. I know if you guys have watched any of our stuff that he was part of the debate with Oscar and Daniel and you know,

35:53

I brought this point up to him and he agreed. And so there's this idea that yeah, they may have said that in the past, but that's not what we think right now.

36:01

So. Which I guess is just interesting because that, that shift isn't happening out of nowhere.

36:07

That kind of is a shift that's happening as everyone shifts to this more postmodern version of thinking, which is that everything can kind of change according to what we, like we didn't know it all back then.

36:21

So now we know so much more and we can make less superstitious, intelligent deductions based off of, but that's just, that's not an uncommon arc right now for anyone to be taking.

36:35

I feel like that's pretty much everyone that doesn't have any sort of objective standard.

36:41

They just are, they all tend to be trending one way. Isn't that interesting? Go figure. Yeah, and you know, modern

36:51

Mormons that do the, that engage in this sort of thought that, you know, we can, we can refuse to believe what some of the prophets and apostles have actually taught.

37:02

Would do well to listen to their own prophets and apostles when they say things like, when

37:07

Brigham Young says that he's never yet given a sermon or sent it out to the sons of men that they might not call scripture. And so he saw his messages, his sermons, as actual scripture in line with Old Testament, New Testament.

37:17

I'm giving you as a prophet of God the words of God. These are inspired words. These are scripture.

37:23

And that's the point of the prophet. That's the point of having the prophet. Like what would be the point of having the prophet if, right, if 50 years in the future it might change.

37:33

Yeah, I was saying, you know, the response we get now to that quote is, well, they, they, they're not like the

37:38

Pope. Right. They're infallible men. Right. They're fallible men. Or fallible men. Yeah, exactly.

37:44

But Brigham Young didn't take his position that way. Yeah. And so you either believe him or you don't.

37:50

Yeah, that's not the way that the prophets have ever been treated. I'm speaking from God.

37:55

Oh, yeah. I disregard it. That's not how it works in scripture, and that's not how early Mormons believed their statements were to be taken.

38:01

Well, and if you were so committed to being a Mormon, I just wouldn't think that... I don't know.

38:07

I wouldn't wear that as like... Well, the classic Mormons hold to that position. Right. Yes. Yes. Right.

38:13

That's why you'd be a Mormon, is if you trusted the words of the Mormon prophets.

38:18

Right. Because you would trust that they were words from God. Speaking from God. Right. Yeah. These new guys coming out of BYU, different breed, for sure.

38:28

We don't hold that all Christians were or are corrupt. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong.

38:46

And the person who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination and a sight, that those professors were all corrupt, that they draw near to me with their lips, their hearts are far from me.

38:59

I'm sorry. This is too easy to see. It's far too easy to see. You don't believe your own prophets.

39:07

That's the point. You don't believe... We're not saying that God said all. No, he said all.

39:13

Do you believe your first vision? I'm wondering, are you a return missionary? Did you go on your mission? Did you read people this first vision account?

39:21

If you were a missionary, you certainly did. And the word all is there. All wrong. All of them corrupt.

39:29

That's what the text says. That's what your prophets have spoken. And so the problem here is not a problem of Jeff Durbin's logic and the facts that I'm drawing from.

39:37

The problem is you don't agree with your own prophets and apostles. Oh, look, he has a picture here of the

39:43

Pope talking to the prophets. Oh, there you go. Look at that ecumenical behavior of the modern

39:49

Mormon organization. Let's not pretend either that there is no case for significant corruption within Christian history.

39:56

I mean, you guys are Protestants, which is and was literally an entire movement based on the idea that the

40:03

Roman Catholic Church was corrupt. Your movement started under the same basic premises as ours.

40:10

Nope. That's a rewriting of history if I ever heard one. Nope. You need to study the

40:15

Reformation and the fact that the Reformers went to great lengths, constantly, to point to the fact that their challenge to Rome at that day was not a challenge that looked like yours.

40:31

It was not, they said, a Restorationist movement. They believed that the church in Rome, and by the way, there's also the church in the east as well.

40:41

They knew about that as well. The Church of Rome was not the only church on earth. They said that the Church of Rome had become corrupted, that they had added things to the

40:50

Christian faith, they added things to the gospel, and they saw them as they came out of Rome. They believed in a continuous work of the

40:58

Spirit of God and Kingdom of God on earth since the time of the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus and the

41:04

Apostles. They would have never believed what you believe in a Restoration, as though the

41:11

Christian Church and the gospel had been lost at any point in history. That's why they were called

41:17

Reformers. They were reforming the church that was there on earth, that was unbroken, that had never been lost from the earth.

41:25

When we say that we're Protestants, we're not saying that the church was gone, and we're just a

41:30

Restorationist movement. It was all gone, and we're just redoing this sort of a thing. No, that's not what the Christian Church has taught or believed in the history of the church.

41:37

The church cannot be restored because the faith was delivered once for all to the

41:42

Saints. That's Jude verse 3, once for all. There's more to be said here in a moment. We're gonna do more

41:48

Scripture. But you're mixing categories here, friends. There is the

41:53

Restorationist movement, which is impossible according to Scripture, Daniel chapter 2, Daniel 7, 13 through 14,

42:01

Matthew chapter 16, Jude verse 3. We can keep going with this, but it is impossible for the church to be restored because it will never be lost.

42:09

The gates of hell will not prevail against it. It is an everlasting kingdom, a dominion which will not pass away.

42:15

That's what the Scriptures plainly teach. Once for all delivered to the Saints. And so, restoration is impossible in the

42:23

Christian faith. Reformation, however, is of course possible because you have a standard operating outside of the people of God that they are being sanctified by.

42:32

Reformation, listen, get this, is happening in the New Testament itself. What do you think the letters of Paul are when he writes to the church in Corinth?

42:41

Or he writes Galatians to the church in Galatia. What are those letters?

42:47

They're letters where Reformation is taking place, where error has crept into the church and is being confronted by an inspired

42:53

Apostle through inspiration. This is wrong. Be changed. Here's what the

42:59

Scripture teaches. Conform yourself to the Scriptures and the Word of God. That's what you see in the New Testament itself.

43:05

So this whole idea of like, oh, you got Reformation happening now during the time of the Protestant Reformation, isn't that weird?

43:10

Well, it's happening in our New Testament itself because we have an objective standard by which we're all being sanctified. And so, of course, the church is always going to be reformed.

43:19

We're not shocked by Reformation. Reformation is happening in Galatians, 2nd Corinthians.

43:25

It's happening throughout the New Testament itself because we have an objective standard, a word from God. That's the reference point that we're all being changed by.

43:32

Listen, somebody who makes the claim that you guys did what we're doing doesn't understand history, is playing fast and loose with history, and I would say you have probably never actually read the

43:44

Reformers, have you? Because the Reformers made it very clear they did not believe anything like you are saying.

43:52

No restoration was necessary or even possible because of what Scripture says about the gospel itself and the church itself.

43:59

It will never be destroyed, ever. You have a restorationist movement. It was gone from the earth.

44:05

It was lost. It ceased to exist. It's gone. The Christian church will never, ever experience that because God, by his

44:12

Spirit, says he's able to keep us forever and that it will never be destroyed. That's what the

44:18

Bible teaches. Because of another R -E word, remnant. Mm -hmm. There's always a remnant. Yep.

44:23

And so that's where we're coming from and there is no remnant in there. Ceased to exist, lost, gone from the earth.

44:30

That's what your church teaches. Again, fast and loose. This is why I said, I don't have respect for opponents of Christianity like this.

44:38

Namely, that the church in the time of the 1500s had gone astray and a Reformation was needed.

44:44

Joseph told the world that God had told him that the Christian church had fallen away and it needed to be restored.

44:52

And that's just, it's just a lie. It's a lie because 2 ,000 years before Joseph came along with this revelation,

44:59

God had already said that he would build his church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

45:07

Yeah, we know. It didn't prevail. That's kind of our message. But, of course, your apostles and prophets have taught that it did.

45:20

The gates of hell did prevail. The church... Let's do it again.

45:27

We just make sure if anyone's jumping in, they're gonna hear this as well. As the restored church,

45:32

Ezra Taft Benson, we affirm with the passing of the apostolic age, the church drifted into a condition of apostasy, that succession in the priesthood was broken, and that the church as an earthly organization operating under divine direction and having authority to officiate the spiritual ordinances ceased to exist.

45:48

The church, according to your prophet, ceased to exist on the earth.

45:56

How's that sound? Sound consistent with what you're saying? Absolutely not. Lost and ceased to exist are very different from what you're saying.

46:05

Let's go to another one. This is churchjesuschrist .org under apostasy.

46:10

This is from your official organization. You guys can see it right there on the screen, if you like.

46:16

Church Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. churchjesuschrist .org. Listen to how your church explains.

46:24

Apostasy overview under Latter -day Saints. Latter -day

46:29

Saints believe that, through the priesthood conferred to Joseph Smith by the ministering of angels, the authority to act in God's name was brought back to the earth.

46:40

Brought back to the earth. This is...oh look, they seem to understand the categories that he doesn't.

46:46

This is restored, not reformed Christianity. Isn't that interesting?

46:53

They seem to understand a difference that you don't understand. The difference between Reformation and Restoration. They get it.

46:59

You clearly don't get it. And so, restored versus reformed.

47:04

They say this is restored and it is not reformed Christianity. Their belief in a restored

47:09

Christianity helps explain why most Latter -day Saint converts from the 1830s to the present, converted from other

47:14

Christian denominations, none of these converts thought they were leaving Christianity. They are simply grateful to learn about and become part of the restored

47:22

Church of Jesus Christ, which they believe offers a more complete and rich Christian Church spirituality, organizationally and doctrinally.

47:29

During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God and the

47:39

Father and Jesus Christ. To God the Father and Jesus Christ. Parts of the Holy Scriptures were corrupted or lost.

47:46

Yeah We could do a whole show on that one. And no one had the authority to confer the gifts of the

47:54

Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances. And here we go. We now live in a time when the

48:00

Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored, but unlike the Church in times past, the

48:06

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, listen to this, will not be overcome by general apostasy.

48:13

The Scriptures teach that the Church will never again be destroyed.

48:21

Never again be destroyed now means that it once what? Was. Which is why it's called restoration.

48:31

Who destroyed the Church? Yeah, restoration and not reformation. Your church seems to understand those categories.

48:37

You don't. This is why I say it's sleight of hand. It's sleight of hand because your church teaches this plainly.

48:43

It's in your whole church history. It's on your church's website now. You are not being honest with your viewers.

48:50

I wonder, will you go on and say, you know what? Yeah, I got those categories wrong and you know that actually is what we believe that it's all all all and it was lost and ceased to exist and that it was destroyed.

49:04

Trying to compare that kind of restorationist movement with Reformation within the church is an unbelievable mixing of categories.

49:14

And I would say also doesn't fit with somebody who says they're using logic to destroy somebody because that is not logical.

49:20

It's a mixing of categories, which is a logical fallacy. Your church says that it was destroyed, but it will never again be destroyed.

49:29

And isn't this, watch, this is interesting. Watch this. Look at the verse that's quoted. Daniel 2 44.

49:38

Your church quotes, and in reference to it'll never again be destroyed, it quotes a verse from Daniel 2 that's talking about Christ's kingdom that arrived during the time of the fourth kingdom, which was

49:50

Rome, that it would never be destroyed. I want you guys all to see it. You just got to see this for yourself. In Daniel chapter 2, which is quoted here on the official website.

50:00

In Daniel chapter 2, this is the vision that Daniel sees about the kingdom of Christ, right?

50:06

So if you could, you, I'm not going to read the whole thing for you here, but in Daniel chapter 2, he's told about this, he's, there's this vision, right?

50:13

And the vision represents four kingdoms. And it's during the time of the fourth kingdom that Mashiach's kingdom,

50:20

Christ's kingdom, is going to arrive. And here's what the text says about when Christ's kingdom arrives. It says in verse 44 of chapter 2 of Daniel, And in the days of those kings, the

50:30

God of heaven, listen to this, will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people.

50:42

It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and ready? And it shall stand forever.

50:51

Forever. Never be destroyed. It shall stand forever. That was talking about Jesus's kingdom and when it was going to arrive.

51:00

And lo and behold, it arrived on time and as planned. And John said it arrived. Jesus said it arrived.

51:06

The Apostles all said that kingdom had arrived in the first century. He has all authority in heaven and on earth.

51:11

Matthew 28, 18 through 20. He's the king of kings, king over all the kings of the earth, ruler of the kings of the earth.

51:17

They believed that Christ was on his throne in the first century and he had inherited that messianic kingdom. That kingdom was there.

51:23

It would never be destroyed. Daniel 2 is about Christ's kingdom and it arrived in the first century, time of the fourth kingdom, which was

51:29

Rome. And isn't it interesting that your church says here on this website, it says here that it was destroyed, but it'll never be a destroyed again, and proof that it'll never be destroyed again, they quote the actual text from Daniel 2 that says that Christ's kingdom will never be destroyed, period.

51:47

So they refute themselves with the very text they appeal to. I wonder how many

51:54

Mormons actually go to that text and do the research and say, well, what is Daniel 2 actually about?

51:59

It's about Christ's kingdom that arrived in the first century, during the time of the fourth kingdom, and isn't it interesting, that's why

52:05

Christians have always believed that restorationist movements are impossible, because Daniel 2.

52:11

But there's more. Daniel chapter 2 is one. Daniel chapter 7 verses 13 through 14 is yet another.

52:18

We could do this for days. Daniel 7, 13 through 14 says this, I saw in the night visions and behold with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man and he came up to the

52:28

Ancient of Days and was presented before him and to him, Jesus, was given dominion and glory and a kingdom that all people's nations and languages should serve him.

52:41

His dominion is an everlasting dominion. What's everlasting dominion? What's that mean? What's another word for everlasting?

52:47

Eternal, never -ending. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

52:56

The Mormon Church, Mormon prophets and apostles have said both things about Christ's kingdom, that it actually was lost, that it did pass away, and they actually used the word destroyed, that it was destroyed.

53:08

Daniel 7, 13 through 14 says it would never be destroyed. It would never pass away. And your prophets and apostles have literally gone on record to say, yep, it was.

53:16

And that's why this is not a reformation. This is a restoration, because it was destroyed. It was lost.

53:22

It ceased to exist. Sir, you lack integrity.

53:28

You just do. You lack integrity, because I would be very shocked if you didn't actually know what we're talking about.

53:38

If you didn't know that your prophets and apostles actually taught these things. The churchofjesuchrist .org

53:44

clearly knows and isn't ashamed of what we've been saying about your church's teachings.

53:51

Now, you're trying to do a video to actually minimize the differences between the

53:56

Christian Church and the Mormon organization. You're trying to minimize it, but your church isn't trying to minimize it.

54:03

Your church says it, clearly, plainly. It's on your church's website today. Go look it up, churchofjesuchrist .org.

54:09

Look up apostasy. You'll see the page that I'm referring to. Sir, I think you need to be a little more honest with your engagement with others.

54:18

...world. The Lord has not allowed his kingdom to be snuffed out, though, as both your prophets and apostles said that it had.

54:30

Again, I only read you two or three quotes from more modern prophets. We could go on and on and on and on.

54:38

An entire episode just about the great apostasy, what your church teaches. Protestants and Mormons agree

54:44

Christian history has not been a smooth ride without its share of division and apostasy.

54:49

Our message actually is that the gates of hell have not prevailed. Jude verse 3, we're told to earnestly contend for the faith, which was once for all delivered to the saints.

55:00

The promise in the Old Testament was that the Messiah would come and he would have a kingdom that would never be destroyed, ever.

55:07

Daniel chapter 7 verses 13 through 14, and Jesus came and he said that he brought that kingdom.

55:13

John the Baptist said that that kingdom was at the fingertip reach. It was right there at hand.

55:19

The Bible says that the Messiah has been seated on his throne. He is king of kings and Lord of lords.

55:24

He brought the kingdom, and so Joseph is just 2 ,000 years too late. He seems to imply that Matthew 16 and these other verses say that there's no chance of the people of God ever corrupting his church and falling away.

55:39

But that is his poor interpretation. No, by the way, that's not an engagement with those verses.

55:46

Just let's just say at the outset, that's not an engagement with the verses that I pointed to.

55:52

This is the waving of the hand sort of a thing. No, actually, if you knew what

55:57

Scripture teaches and what we actually believe, apostasy is always possible, but it will never be complete.

56:04

It will never be total. Apostasy is always, I mean look, it's in the

56:10

New Testament itself. How could you make the claim that we seem to think that apostasy isn't possible?

56:15

It's in the New Testament. What does the Apostle John say? He says they went out from us in order to show that they were never really of us.

56:24

Or how about the book of Galatians? There's apostasy taking place in the book of Galatians by the addition of another thing to how a person is justified before God.

56:33

That's apostasy. Paul believes it's such apostasy from the truth that he actually says in the first century that if I come back and an angel from heaven preaches that,

56:41

Galatians 1, let me be anathema, eternally separated from God, because what they're teaching is an apostate doctrine.

56:48

So where would you ever get the idea that we don't believe that apostasy is possible? The point is, complete apostasy is impossible because Christ rules and reigns forever in a kingdom that will never be destroyed.

56:59

It's a faith that is, Jude verse 3, once for all delivered to the saints.

57:05

Once for all, friend, you don't believe. You do not believe that the faith was delivered once for all.

57:13

You do not believe that. Have integrity, sir. I've got Mormon friends.

57:19

We have a very close Mormon friend. Who does not agree with us. He was a Mormon apologist that even wrote for some of the more popular apologetics websites for the

57:28

Mormon Church many years ago. He has integrity. We love him. He has integrity.

57:35

I respect the man. We disagree. We always go out to dinner together before the Mormon temple

57:40

Easter pageant. We eat together. We love each other, but he has integrity. He believes

57:46

Mormonism. Sir, I would say it doesn't seem like you actually believe what your church teaches.

57:53

So, that's a total strawman argument. You know, he just you just defined it well, but like we're not saying there's no apostasy, like you said, and that's his argument.

58:05

It goes back to the terms, understanding terms. We talk about this all the time with LDS is like, you gotta define terms for them.

58:13

You know, we believe there can be an apostasy, but again, it goes back to the remnant, but we believe there will always be a remnant.

58:20

And so his definition of apostasy for us is not our definition of apostasy.

58:26

And so it's a total strawman. Yep. Let's keep going. There's more. Ignores all sorts of other verses.

58:33

Paul, for example, when teaching about the day of the second coming of Jesus, literally said to the church in Thessalonica, Let no one deceive you by any means, for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first.

58:49

And guess what the original Greek was for the falling away? Apostasia.

58:55

Apostasia, meaning apostasy. Meaning Paul literally prophesied an apostasy to come to the world after his time, but prior to the second coming.

59:09

I need to get one of those buttons that goes err, you know what I'm saying? Like err, like, yeah. Let's just go back real fast though.

59:15

There's something you got to see here. So let's go back. Where's that slide? Maybe it's just there. No, is it there? How far back do

59:21

I want to go? Let's see here. Paul literally prophesied an apostasy. Let's see. There you go right there.

59:26

Okay, apostasia. All right. I want everyone to look at this real fast. Look at the word there, the

59:32

Greek word apostasia, and there's more expansive studies you can do in this word right here, but defection, apostasy, and look at the word revolt.

59:43

This word has also been used to refer to political rebellion as well.

59:49

So revolt. So to the text, first of all, it would be actually a very inconsistent view that Paul and second

59:57

Thessalonians, Thessalonians, the church in Thessalonica, that Paul was talking about the final coming of Christ in judgment, second coming in chapter 2.

01:00:09

In chapter 1, clearly he is, he even uses a different word. He doesn't use the word parousia for the coming of Christ in chapter 1.

01:00:15

He uses a different word in chapter 2. He refers when it says in chapter 2 verse 1, second

01:00:21

Thessalonians, now concerning the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being synagogued together to him, gathered together to him, we ask you brothers not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed either by a spirit or a spoken word or a letter seeming to be from us to the effect that the day of the

01:00:42

Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. Okay, hold on now. Let's let's try this.

01:00:49

Do you think that the parousia, the coming, this day that's coming of judgment, do you think that he's referring to the second coming here, the resurrection of the dead, and final judgment?

01:01:04

If so, then pray tell, how did people think that that day had already happened?

01:01:12

How could anybody believe that that day of the final coming of Christ and judgment and resurrection of the dead had actually occurred?

01:01:21

Or, or Paul isn't referring to the final judgment and final resurrection in this passage.

01:01:28

The parousia he's referring to is the same parousia that Jesus referred to in Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13.

01:01:34

The Great Tribulation, all of those texts that show that it had to happen in that generation. Now, he's not talking about the final coming of Christ and judgment and resurrection here, clearly, because nobody could have been deceived into thinking that day had already come.

01:01:50

They're still there. Life is still going on. How could anybody be thinking that the second coming of Christ had actually come?

01:01:58

I wonder if this gentleman has actually read the text and tried to draw the text it's meaning, because he said that this is about the second coming and a great apostasy had to happen before the second coming.

01:02:08

No. Couldn't be talking about the second coming and the final judgment because they're still there.

01:02:14

How could it have already happened? How could anybody have actually believed that? No, that doesn't work with the text.

01:02:19

Next, he says, let no one deceive you. Verse 3, in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed the

01:02:30

Son of Destruction. That word there, rebellion, revolt, apostasy, defection, that's what it means.

01:02:39

The apostasia comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed the Son of Destruction. There's a number of ways of looking at this.

01:02:46

First and foremost, you know, this could not be talking about final judgment and resurrection because nobody would have thought that that actually had already happened.

01:02:54

It's talking about the coming judgment of Christ that was going to happen in their generation before they all died.

01:02:59

They all knew that it was coming. And so these people in Thessalonica are living far away.

01:03:05

Maybe they thought that those events had already begun, the destruction of Jerusalem and all of that.

01:03:10

Maybe they got word that it had already begun. Maybe, we don't, I mean, possibly that's maybe an explanation as to why they thought the day had already come.

01:03:17

They don't have Internet. They didn't even have Morse code at the time. I mean, it was very difficult to know what kind of news was taking place in that very moment because of travel and all the distances it took to get messages across.

01:03:28

But the point is, is he says that day, the parousia, the judgment of Christ that they were all expecting in their generation, won't happen until the apostasia comes first.

01:03:39

Now, here's the point. There's a number of ways to look at this. Could it be referring to apostasy within the

01:03:44

Christian Communion? Yeah, but it wouldn't be total and complete because that's not possible according to the scriptures. Or, or, or the word apostasia is also used in reference to political revolt.

01:03:57

Is Paul saying that that day won't come until the revolt happens first? Never forget that up until the time of like the mid -60s, before the fall of Jerusalem, Rome and the

01:04:09

Jews were kind of like this. I mean, not, not a great relationship, but they were like, they were like this.

01:04:15

Who were the two greatest antagonists towards the Christian Church in the first century? Who were they? It was the

01:04:20

Jews and it was the Romans, right? In the book of Revelation, you see exactly that.

01:04:26

You see the Jews and the Romans as the enemy of the Christian Church. That's who's martyring them.

01:04:32

That's who's killing them. It's the beast and it's the Jews, the synagogue of Satan, the covenantally unfaithful

01:04:38

Jews of the first century. But as you get into the mid -60s and you get into the fall of Jerusalem and the war between the

01:04:45

Romans and the Jews, now all of a sudden it switches and now it is Rome going to war with the

01:04:50

Jews. So is Paul referring here to a political revolt? That kind of apostasia needs to take place first?

01:04:57

Well, it's a better interpretation and explanation of the text itself than yours because Paul didn't believe in a total apostasy as possible.

01:05:06

He says there always will be a remnant and that this is, he believed what the Bible said. This is a kingdom that will never be destroyed.

01:05:12

It'll never pass away. He believed, of course, what you see in Jude, that it's a faith that is once for all delivered to the saints.

01:05:17

But here's what he says. Listen to this. Yes, yes, yes.

01:05:35

I'm not going to spend the whole day today talking about that. Let me tell you, there are, there's disagreement about who's the man of sin.

01:05:40

Is it this guy? Is it this guy? Is it the guy who actually came into the temple and set up, you know, idols and they worshiped him and, you know, destroyed?

01:05:48

And, you know, there's questions. But the point here is not to talk about the man of sin here so much. do you not remember that when

01:05:55

I was still with you, I told you these things? And here you go. Ready? Here. And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

01:06:06

So Paul is referring here in the text to this man of sin as present in his day.

01:06:14

Right. And he was being restrained at that time. Here's the point.

01:06:20

You're wrong on the text. You took a text that is about first century events and you placed it into the final coming of Jesus.

01:06:27

It doesn't even fit with a text. How could they have thought that the final coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead had actually already happened?

01:06:34

They're all still there. And this man of sin is still, is there in Paul's day. Paul says he's there in the day and he's currently being restrained.

01:06:42

He's not let go yet. Here's the point. The word apostasia there could be referring to the political revolt that took place in the 60s.

01:06:51

It could refer to general apostasy, but that apostasy isn't total. And guess what? Did you notice something?

01:06:58

I know what that text says. Like Jeff, he's just not letting you know about all these other texts.

01:07:05

Did you notice something? Jeff knows what that text says. Jeff actually knows what that text says, and this is not about me.

01:07:12

This is about any Christian. We've known about this text forever. Jeff knows what this text says, but it doesn't say what your church is saying.

01:07:19

Right. That's the point. I'm not keeping this text from anybody. I teach on this text anytime anybody brings it up to me.

01:07:25

I know this text. I've spent hours on this text, exegeting it, looking at the language, going into the background, studying who the man of sin could possibly be, who were the candidates, all of that.

01:07:34

We've looked into that. Jeff's not hiding anything from anybody. The problem is, is this text doesn't say what you think it says.

01:07:40

That's the problem. Meaning apostasy. Meaning Paul literally prophesied an apostasy to come to the world after his time, but prior to the second coming.

01:07:57

Where's that buzzer? Did he say after his time? Doesn't Paul actually say in the text that that man of sin, that this current thing going on, is actually occurring in his day, and that that man of sin is currently being held back in his day?

01:08:14

Isn't that actually what the text says? I'm wondering, friend, have you read the text before you did this video and tried to use this text in the way that you have?

01:08:24

It doesn't seem as though you have. Well, this is why eschatology matters. Eschatology matters. Because he obviously would say that the

01:08:31

Lord hasn't had a second coming. You know, and so, I mean, to be fair, some

01:08:37

LDS say that the Apostle John is still alive. So, but anyways, just a little.

01:08:42

Yeah, and even with him alive, the church was lost. It was destroyed. It was gone from the earth. Great point, yeah. You see,

01:08:49

Paul knew very well that the church could fall away, and even seemed to predict it. To Timothy, he said,

01:08:55

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts they shall heap up to themselves teachers having itching ears, and they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned unto fables.

01:09:11

It's kind of telling that Jeff is ignoring the verses that cut against his narrative. And it's weird that he is ignoring the fact that Protestantism, literally and historically, is about the reformation of a church which had been corrupted.

01:09:28

Reformation. Restoration. Friend, you need to learn those categories.

01:09:34

Again, your church knows those categories. That your church teaches those categories.

01:09:40

Apparently, you don't. Now, I understand that much of what is coming out of BYU today tries very, very hard to diminish these differences and to try to whitewash them.

01:09:51

But that is what your church teaches. By the way, 2 Timothy chapter 4, verse 1.

01:10:21

And we'll turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths as for you. Okay, that's gonna happen.

01:10:27

As for you, always be sober minded. Endure suffering. Do the work of an evangelist.

01:10:32

Fulfill your ministry. That says nothing about a complete apostasy.

01:10:39

It's saying there's gonna be this problem of people who do this. Some people. Some people. As for you, you fulfill your calling.

01:10:47

As for you, you live like this. Do you see the difference there? Nothing in that text at all.

01:10:55

Nothing in that text says at all that there's going to be a total apostasy, a complete apostasy, and the destruction of the church of off the earth.

01:11:03

Nothing at all. I was gonna say, it sounds like one of y 'alls is leaving parts of the verses out.

01:11:10

Right. Yeah. We'll let you draw your conclusions as to who that is. Right. Our message is simply that a restoration of priesthood keys was needed rather than simply a theological reformation.

01:11:23

Now, he will switch gears into the second argument and challenge our view of the nature of God. But we will tackle that subject in the next video.

01:11:32

And there you go. I'm actually, I was more excited. I'm disappointed because I like to do this all day.

01:11:37

I was actually more excited to get to his next video on the nature of God because let me just say something.

01:11:43

I mean this with all due respect to this gentleman. What he does in the second video,

01:11:49

I don't say this about everybody. I mean this sincerely. He ought to be embarrassed about.

01:11:55

And once we engage with it, and I show you how he manipulates history, manipulates even

01:12:01

Dr. Michael Heizer, who is now dead, and with the Lord, how he tries to use

01:12:07

Heizer for his position shows that he doesn't understand Heizer, he hasn't really studied

01:12:13

Heizer the way that he needs to, and he's abusing Heizer. If Michael was still alive today,

01:12:18

I have disagreements with Michael Heizer. I think he was sloppy in some areas. But however, if Michael was still alive today, he just recently died.

01:12:26

What was it a month or two months ago? I would be called, be on the phone with Michael, calling

01:12:31

Michael and saying, Michael, you need to come on the show and let's deal with this gentleman who is trying to use your quotations and your explanations to prove his

01:12:41

Mormon position. And I could tell you right now, without question, Michael would be on the show with me, because guess what?

01:12:48

He's on our side. And the way you abused his quotes is embarrassing.

01:12:55

And let me just say this, in terms of the realm of public debate, it is shameful how you abuse

01:13:01

Michael Heizer's quotations. And so, I hope you leave up the video. I am definitely going to download it, and I'm going to pull it, because we're going to engage with it.

01:13:12

And when I demonstrate what you did with Michael Heizer, I think you're going to owe your viewers an apology.

01:13:18

And I want to just say, again, for the record, I think we need to know the difference in speed limits, like on the sidewalk versus the freeway, right?

01:13:29

Two different speed limits for a reason. And I do handle and engage with people in different ways based upon where they're at, and what they're doing, and what they're claiming.

01:13:39

I'll engage with the average Mormon on the street in a different way than I'll engage with someone like this from thoughtful faith.

01:13:44

When you lie about history, when you lie about Christian theology, when you misrepresent Christian scholars like Michael Heizer, I'm going to handle you in a much different way, because I don't actually respect people who lack the integrity to actually represent others rightly.

01:13:59

And so we're going to do it. So hopefully next week, you guys will get the part two,

01:14:05

Dealing with the Nature of God. Get ready for it, because we're going to dig in a bit to Michael Heizer, and we're going to hear some quotes from Heizer that are going to,

01:14:13

I think, allow all of us to have some very serious questions for thoughtful faith.

01:14:20

Very serious questions. And so that's coming. Any last word? Oh, here we go. I was just going to say that.

01:14:25

Yeah, we got the the Super Chats. Jacob Florentino, Jesus is

01:14:30

King. Amen. Thank you for blessing us very, very much. Ty Thomas, God bless you.

01:14:37

Brothers and sisters, is there currently a playlist specifically for your teachings in Proverbs?

01:14:43

I really need some wisdom as a 26 -year -old in this climate. Amen, Ty. So do I. So do we all. I think that playlist should be just under Apologia Sermons.

01:14:52

Yeah. We should break them down at some point, Ty. You're right, into categories of like the

01:14:58

Gospel according to Matthew, Romans, Proverbs. But for now, they're up.

01:15:03

They should be up in the playlist. You can also go to ApologiaStudios .com and just in the search bar put in Proverbs, and they'll come up there.

01:15:10

Yeah, Apologia Sermons. You'll find them there for now. Hey, brothers. God with us.

01:15:15

My name's Enoch, and I've been watching for a couple of years. Thank you for sharing with conviction and educating those who are hungry.

01:15:21

Jesus was, is, and will be forever. Amen. Victor, thank you for blessing us.

01:15:27

Thank you all for watching today. We're grateful for all of you guys. Be on the lookout for next week as we engage with the next video on the nature of God.

01:15:36

I'm actually very excited to do that. But for now, we're gonna leave from here, and we're gonna go over to Apologia Studios.

01:15:43

This is gonna continue over there for the Apologia After Show. And so I'm gonna have some continuing things to say to everybody at the

01:15:49

Apologia After Show. Apologia All Access partners with us in ministry. Thank you for partnering with us in ministry.

01:15:55

Go over there and get this additional content just for you. We want to bless and encourage you and equip you.

01:16:02

And so it's heading over there right now. Apologia Studios All Access. You'll be the first to see this very first Apologia After Show on the new platform.

01:16:09

And that's Luke the Bear. Peace out. That's Joy the Girl. See ya. I'm Jeff the Culminator Ninja. We'll catch you next week right here on Apologia Radio.