Finishing the Hamza Tzortzis/Adnan Rashid Video, About 20 Minutes with Wael Ibrahim.

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Succeeded in finishing my review of the video on the reliability (or, in this case, non-reliability!) of the Bible from the Muslim perspective with Hamza Tzortzis and Adnan Rashid. Then got another twenty minutes or so in continuing by response to Wael Ibrahim from the debate in Hong Kong, and then took the last twelve minutes or so to respond to RonOFS on Twitter regarding Roman Catholicism.

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And greetings and welcome to the dividing line, my name is James white we are having technical issues today
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I have a fully pixelated screen and the main thing though is It's been raining for a week here in Phoenix and the result of that is we're in a bad part of town and stuff stops working because it gets wet which it normally isn't wet and And So as a result, we just can't connect up to YouTube to provide any type of live streaming right now and so we are going to record the program as we had to when we were having some problems like this a couple weeks ago and The live stream the audio stream is available, but I'm gonna be playing video
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But there's really nothing on the video that you wouldn't catch because it's all people talking So, I don't know that really makes any any difference.
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So it'll it'll work. So Anyway, we're gonna press on and Those of you who are listening only by audio.
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All you are missing is a glorious Coogee sweater. So that That is a major a major step down.
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That is that is a bad thing Because life is too short to miss any opportunity to see one of my
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Coogee sweaters. So They will have to endure it later on because we will be uploading you we will upload the video
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But you know, it's just just right now. I'll see if I can find a Screen cover or something like that.
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No, no, no. Yeah, this is one of my favorites. I just got this year It's really nice and light.
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So it's not I'm not dying in it or I've got a I have another one beautiful one. That is
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What's that stuff? Kashmir Kashmir. Oh my goodness The only place you can wear that is
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Antarctica unless you want to just die of the heat It's it's just that bad, but it it is it is beautiful.
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Anyway, what we want to do. This will be the Last dividing line for a couple of weeks.
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Well, actually it won't But I'm just not going to put any pressure on anybody is to tell you what's gonna be happening
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So I don't even know how that's gonna work But I'm just gonna leave that the power is it be
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I do refuse to allow anyone to use any of my teacups or anything related to program
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Just remember when the cats away the mice will the mice are gonna play while I'm away and So we'll see what that But that means
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I probably won't even have time to look I'll be teaching probably during this period of time Or whatever it is
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At least the first week and well actually most of the second week too, so very very busy trip back east
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Looking forward to meeting folks at the g3 conference Week from Monday This coming
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Monday on Homosexuality there at RTS and and so on so forth. So I've already talked about all that We want to finish up our response to the global Dawa movement video
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Featuring Hamza sort cease and Adnan Rashid we
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Thought I thought I'd get that done yesterday, and I didn't and so I'm gonna try to get to that get back to what ale and Before I do that though.
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I want to I hope to remember to put a link on The blog when we post this program
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We very rarely come to our audience and say we need your help with something
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We have the ministry resource list which is still out there And by the way, there's a few things sitting on it that I've forgotten to tell anybody about The ministry resource list is a great way for you to help me directly.
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I put stuff on there books Normally Kindle books, but sometimes hardback books if or you know paper books sometimes both
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Because it's extremely useful to be able to listen to it But then also have the references that you can go to you know, you can search on Kindle It's really great to have both.
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Anyways, there's a couple items on the ministry resource list right now But we rarely come to folks.
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We let people know we are We are not we do not have any rich donors.
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We do we do not have a staff that goes around cultivating You know donation lists you know
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The people that support this ministry do so because you know, I like that you all are like that I like that I can give to your ministry and you're not gonna be calling me during dinner six months from now
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Asking me to give that same amount again, and you're not gonna be using, you know
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Cold callers and I don't get my email box doesn't get filled with stuff and my mailbox doesn't get filled with stuff.
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We just It's I'm not trying to say there's something wrong with the people to do all that. It's just we don't do it
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And we're just as dependent upon if not more so because we don't have you know endowments and stuff like that everything we get comes from just plain old people and That's how we do what we do.
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So when I say we normally when I come to the audience, it's because we have something coming up and we need to cover the travel expenses and Just today
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I was Communicating with Rudolf Buschhoff in South Africa and it looks like what we're gonna do this year is
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Different time different location different time different station Looks like what we're gonna do is
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At least right now as to the conversation we've been having today Right now it looks like we're gonna do
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Cape Town only that there's plenty to do in Cape Town there's a group of reformed guys in Cape Town that want to work with us and setting up a full conference
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Thursday Friday Saturday conference on Inerrancy, they really want and need teaching on that which is great.
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I mean that just think what kind of effect in Africa that could have if we could really do a
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Bang up job in dealing with that subject and dealing with some of the toughest toughest
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Criticisms of Scripture dealing with issues like the destruction of the
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Amorites and How to deal with the synoptic issue and you know all that kind of stuff
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But we had already talked with a you Karim this past year
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About doing because he has He's not just there in Durban. He also has a location in Cape Town Never been to Cape Town before everybody tells me it's the most beautiful part of South Africa.
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Well I'm not gonna have time to be doing any sightseeing Other than I would like to do some runs along the beach.
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That would be not in the sand but like in Durban Gotta admit. It's amazing.
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How easy it is to run a 10k neck on a beach in comparison to next to the canal You know, uh, you know the canal which you know every once in a while you go by and there's a shopping cart
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You know, that's everything, you know the beach much much nicer. For some reason. It's a lot easier. Anyways We also have some other folks down there that are interested in debate so it looks like we'd be focusing on Cape Town for our our ministry this year but There was also a request would there be the option the opportunity of doing something at a different time and Right now
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The possibility exists and what we're gonna be pushing for is To do it in four months
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May of this year four months from now That's not a long time. Thank you for telling me these things
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Yeah, yeah, this is evidence. I tell people I find out about 30 seconds before they do.
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Yeah Here we are four months. All right. Okay, we're right behind you. Dr. White.
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There we go We're you know may right now. This isn't written in stone yet this is you know,
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Rudolph and I are talking and he's talking to folks at Cape Town and and obviously there's a multiple hour
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What is it right now eight or nine? I forget which one it is right now because it's it's changed Well, it's changed since I was down there.
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Hey, so something like that Obviously once it gets later in the day here, it's pretty late there.
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And so it isn't as fast. The point is If the opportunities
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Open up this would be just fantastic opportunity to do this in Cape Town to do this kind of thing but it's very expensive and We need your help and so I'm going to link to the travel link it's in the store
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You can find if you go to the store down at the bottom you have a travel thing but I'll put the link right there and this is one of the times we come to our folks and we say
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If you want to send me off to Africa to sue to encourage the brothers there and to engage in debate and to do stuff that We've been doing down there this is when we need your assistance what this also will probably open up the opportunity for is
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I would imagine it'd be a whole lot easier to arrange the Hong Kong trip in the September October time period which we normally keep
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Open for the South Africa time trip so the point is We've got opportunities for doing things on the opposite parts of the world
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About as far from Phoenix as you can get pretty much the other side of the world either direction and Those opportunities are things that require us to come to our listening audience and not just individuals but Some of you are you know sit on missions committees on churches and things like that Think about maybe taking something like this to the missions committee and saying here's a here's a one -time
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Thing that we can do is there is it would there be a way for us to help Get James White to Hong Kong or to South Africa or whichever one
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You know just donate to the travel link and and trust that we'll put it toward the Trip that we need at the most at that particular point in time
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To have these opportunities of engaging Even more people in different contexts and And trying to push that that conversation forward and Encouraging the
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Saints and and doing all the things we're trying to do. So there you go. I'll put the link up and Hopefully that will begin the process of Helping us to get to those those places.
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I'm I'm a little taken aback because I mean that's not a lot long For me either as far as you know preparation things like that go though.
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I'll be honest with you doing Some of the topics we're talking about is is pretty much what
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I'm doing all the time as far as my study goes and things like that, so That's that's useful.
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So there you go your prayers and support very much appreciated in in all of that So, let me see here did it did it did it today?
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Okay, just checking some of the some of the tweets are actually people are still listening listening now
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Yes, I'm plugged in I'm you don't have my you don't have the audio I haven't played anything yet I know but I will here in a moment
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But I didn't turn this off since last times that worries me a little bit that it may not be working, right?
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We'll find out here in a second. Let's get back to this. I want to finish this We only have four minutes and 41 seconds and you can figure the last 30 seconds is just credits and stuff.
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Anyways, so We have been listening to a discussion between two
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Muslims who engage in Dawa one of whom I have debated multiple times One of whom
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I was supposed to engage with I believe on the unbelievable radio broadcast, but we didn't get a chance to do that unfortunately due to the fact that driving in London is
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Difficult difficult. Hey, I got there on the tube and I'm a yank so Anyway still looking forward to have an opportunity of meeting
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Homs at some time in in the future But they have been discussing the
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Bible. We have been Pushing back. We have been asking questions. We have been pointing things out
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I've mentioned I that I I recognize this is an unusual kind of program a lot of people on Twitter respond
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Yeah, it's my favorite kind of program. I love when you go toe -to -toe with folks you do it with respect you do it focused on the arguments not the individuals and Just like a debate this this is similar to a debate in that you're hearing both sides now
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You're only hearing one side responding so it's not as good as a debate because you don't have the coming back to the direction, but the point is it is an unusual element of what we have on the on the web today and I do believe that it is important that we engage in this in a respectful fashion
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We're not focused upon the individuals and I would really exhort both people on my side as well as people on the other side,
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I believe that if we love the truth and If we want to demonstrate that that is our true focus and our true priority
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That we as a group Christians and Muslims together need to recognize
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That when we give in to the personal stuff when we give in to the temptations for Unnecessarily utilizing
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Disruptive language disrespectful language when you when you start off what you're saying with well, here's another video about that liar
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James White Okay I'm probably not going to find that overly useful.
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It's probably not going to help my response to it if I in 99 % of time I'm not even gonna respond to it
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It's probably not gonna be worth it. And when I have failed at that, I am a human being
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I have bad days I apologize and I can think of some individuals that Something tells me if we were to like when
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I come to London sit down with certain folks Over a nice hot cup of Roy bus tea
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See, this is the perfect temperature right now right now What time is it 1515 after so about about 20 minutes?
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It's sitting on my mr. Coffee warmer thingy. Oh, wait a minute. Ah It was sitting on my mr.
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Coffee warmer thingy I somehow turned the thing back off again Well, I thought it warmed and cooled off pretty quickly.
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Anyway, um, we can sit down over a nice cup of tea something tells me that a
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Couple of you with whom I have less than cordial relationships We could change that and maybe change the tenor of from both sides
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Along those lines. I'm certainly open to that I realize there are people on your side that Have the wrong motivations for doing what they do, okay that happens on both sides
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But the reality is You know we on as Christians we are absolutely
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Constrained by scripture constrained by the
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Commands of our Lord to put truth at the very top of our priority list and I Want to be a servant?
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I want to be a servant of Jesus Christ and his truth
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And that means I have to be willing to Put myself at a lower level than that, which
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I'm seeking to serve and when I don't do that, I apologize. So anyways with that said
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Let's get back to the let's get back to what's being said here. Hopefully Everything will work right here right from the start.
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Let's go. Well different churches believe in different things Okay, okay Eastern churches had a different view on Jesus Christ Western churches had a different view on Jesus.
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So the Christians in Antioch And even even even the documents were not being read at the same time a
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Document or even four Gospels were mentioned for the first time collectively by a man in the second late second century
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About the year 200 his name was Iranians. This is the first time when four
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Gospels were mentioned together Okay. Now now Irenaeus is extremely early and again
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One of the one of the issues here Adnan is that The the nature of the
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New Testament being much larger and being a collection of books authored by multiple people
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Actually bears more similarity to The hadith and it does to the
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Quran the Quran is much shorter you claim Anyways, and we're functioning on as far as providing criticism a unitary authorship
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But the Claims made for the hadith and the accuracy of the transmission of those cities over time
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That's that's much more of a parallel to the collation of The materials it becomes the
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New Testament but remember I think if you all were consistent you'd be a little slower to pull the cannon card and the reason for this is twofold a you you have to deal with the reality of the fact that you identify
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Jesus as a A Prophet of God now unless you just simply get to dismiss everything that's found in the text as to what
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Jesus said About the Old Testament, then he becomes a thorn in your side
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Because clearly He knew the extent of the canon He knew what was and what was not
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Scripture and So that process of the
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Old Testament Had his verification. In fact, you could argue that surah 5 indicates that He he testified to he confirmed that Which came of the
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Torah before him now? again, you make distinctions about what
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Torah is or is not but the word had a meaning when it was used in the writing of the
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Quran and I would challenge whether there is a real knowledge on the part of the
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Writer of the Quran of What for example the Tanakh was I mean don't don't you think that would be something?
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That would appear given how much? Interaction Muhammad had with the
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Jews in Medina Especially don't you think there'd be some recognition of the
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Tanakh the Torah the Nevi 'im and the Ketuvim things like that The point is
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Jesus recognizes the Old Testament canon and The process that brought about the
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Old Testament canon took place over time. I Would highly recommend again. It's a book. I think
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I've given to a number of you. I know I've given it I'm pretty sure I've given it to Shabir Ali. I Sure who else
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I've given it to Like I said, I need a list from each one of you as to what books I've given you so I don't don't double it, but Beckwith's book
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Roger Beckwith not Frank Beckwith Roger Beckwith's book the Old Testament canon the New Testament Church We carry it here in our bookstore
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I would highly recommend it to your reading. It's Not the most exciting book to read. It's it's rather technical
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But really good material really important as to the Process in history of the development of a theological reality, which is the canon
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So that's the one one problem is you have Jesus affirming that as far as the Old Testament can is concerned but then the other problem is on the other side
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I Don't see that there has been nearly enough at least amongst those who engage in Tawa Attention paid to the many questions that still exist as to the collation of the surahs of the
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Quran and The mechanism by which that took place the authority by which that took place
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Why are they ordered in the way that they are? Why do they have the form that they do? What about those troubling?
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Elements of the tradition that talk about how one surah of the
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Quran used to have You know, it's only a third of the length that it once was and and things like that I think these are issues that need to be looked at Before a confident
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Pulling of the canon trigger, which is sort of what we've what we've got going on here Got to find my my cursor here now
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So that makes sense of this this there's some shoddy ground here Basically, yeah, the other point is what was the criteria for canonicity?
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That's important. So the church wanted to have a canon What was their criteria to canonize the
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Bible to have the Gospels together when it comes to canonicity? And it's I Watched what the criteria is to establish canonicity
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Bruce Metzger is an authority on this field and he has written a book titled the canon of the
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New Testament in this book He gives the the criteria for canonicity basically, the criteria is that you establish a belief or you start to believe in something and then you start to accept
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Documents against that belief agree with your belief. They have to the documents have to agree with you
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But it's not the other way not give it like a second argument exactly not the other way around We the Muslims we form our beliefs based upon the
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Quran Yes, the Quran as a document came to us and we base our Quran is our criteria not our belief, but in the early church, it was the belief that was used as criteria to Okay Okay, we got
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We've got some problems here First of all, I would just point out to you The rules
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By which Hadith are identified as sound or questionable, you know sahih and and and weak
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To be rejected or the various levels there if you'll look at them carefully they
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Contain the same kind of Circular problem that is one of the rules is is it consistent with the
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Quran? Well according to who's interpretation? But what I really think you're missing here and which ties in with the last review
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I did here is And and I'm not faulting you for this. I'm not I'm not
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I'm not faulting you Hamza. I'm not faulting you for this because Most Christians fall into the exact same
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Problem and trap that you have and so I can't I certainly if if that happens to Christians all the time
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I'm not I'm not faulting you but what I am inviting you to do along with my fellow Christians is to get out of that trap and see the issue of the canon of scripture in a much clearer way and that is
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I Mentioned this had a chapter on this didn't go as into as much depth as Dr.
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Michael Kruger has But remember in the last installment I talked about Michael Kruger's books on the canon again highly recommend them to you my book scripture alone has a section where I deal with this and What I'm focusing on here is the need to recognize that the canon is
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Theological before it's historical the vast majority of books Metzger Even when
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Bruce addresses it the majority of books that deal with the subject of the
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New Testament canon Approach it first and foremost from a historical perspective.
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But what is the canon? Let's let's leave the Bible out of it What is the canon in regards to the
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Quran? Is it first and foremost a historical thing or is it a theological thing?
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Well, obviously it's theological. It is assuming that something has happened. It is assuming that there has been a revelation and in fact
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From the Islamic perspective again, depending on exactly how you understand this, but most
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Muslims with whom I've had conversation Believe that the Quran was sent down on Laylat al -Qadr on the night of power
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It was sent down as a whole to Jabril and then is sort of parceled out over 22 years to Muhammad but it's all sent down as a as a body as a body of divine and so Who who determines?
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What ends up appearing in history? but a law based upon the extent of what he sends down to Jabril so the first element of a
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Discussion of the canon of the Quran is a theological issue from the Christian perspective
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The same thing is true but not But not for the exact same reason because again we have a fundamental and important and different understanding of inspiration
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God breathes out his word By his sovereign decree he does so at the exact time that he chooses to do so in the exact way he chooses to do so using the instruments that he has chosen to use which again demonstrates the overarching necessity of recognizing the sovereign decree of God over all events in time because if he wants his word to be in a certain form and He chooses the
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Apostle Paul to be the one who gives that form to 13 of the books of the
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New Testament Then Paul needs to come into existence. God can't be running around going.
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Oh Man, a camel just ran over Paul. Oh, man, and he ain't gonna make it What is this?
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I gotta come up with somebody else and so that's gonna change why what my word would have been and so on and so forth and obviously doesn't work so all of these modernistic ideas of Man's sovereignty over time and open theism and all the rest that kind of stuff
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Really doesn't work for either one of our systems when you think about it, but what's different between us is
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That when I talk about God's Sovereignty his kingly freedom his creating the very fabric of time
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It has similarities to what is taught in classical Islam regarding Qatar But it also has fundamental contradiction to that Because while both of us well again,
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I'm not sure where you guys come down on this I realize you guys have your your divisions as well.
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It just seems to me in the Hadith and the Quran. It's pretty clear that Allah does what
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Allah wills and You know, I don't know. I'd like to find out if you guys would accept for example the
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Hadith That narrates that there are people who do the deeds of the people of the fire
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Throughout their lives until there are hands breath away from entering into the fire And then what is written of them overtakes them and they enter into Jannah paradise and there are people who do the deeds of the people of paradise their entire life until there are
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Hands breath away from entering in and then what was written of them that writing 40 days after conception
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Overtakes them and they enter into hellfire now, I'd be interested As far as I can tell all
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Salafi oriented conservative Sunnis would have a hard time rejecting that sahih
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Hadith But I've read I Just started rereading a book by a
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Muslim scholar saying we have to we have to change our views on all of this and he specifically mentioned that Hadith as being one that goes against any moral reading of the text of the
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Quran now that big area of Argument and disagreement on your side.
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I get that. I'm just simply pointing that out I'd be interested to know whether you would accept that to be the case or not point being the difference between us in regards to Qatar is
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As a reformed Christian, I believe absolutely in the sovereign decree of God But I believe absolutely that sovereign decree of God involves his
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Personal interaction in the events of time including the very incarnation itself and you and I both know you say no way
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No way Which means all the guys on my side
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That try to criticize either you or me by saying that you and I are saying the same things
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Don't know what they're talking about. It's not uncommon. They do it but anyway That's that's how it goes so How did
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I get on this from Canon, oh, yes inspiration God obviously from our perspective
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Did determine with specificity exactly what would be in the scriptures but not by a simple method of Dictation It's much deeper than that.
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It's much fuller than that and it involves his personal interaction with us in time
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Which is a part of his sovereign decree Don't know if that helped anybody but it is a top
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It is a subject I get asked a lot about and you know, it's a topic that we need to put on to the list
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I think it would be very useful. And like I said the beginning of program If this in South Africa works out for May What I said last time was
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I'm thinking about trying to make something happen in London either going or coming and so Adnan I'm that Maybe when we're talking about a list here.
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We're talking about Maybe something we could throw at Justin at the very least possibly for a discussion on unbelievable
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I'm not trying to take over your show Justin, but I've done I've been on before and and we behaved ourselves better than some people you've had in studio and or formal debate
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I I've not heard a debate on Qatar now it would take
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It would take someone on your side that is really willing to reign in the desire to throw red meat
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To the Salafis in the audience, okay It would take a real focus upon both of us
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To engage in a respectful debate that seeks to increase understanding from both perspectives, that's what
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I'd like to see happen and Maybe we can find someone there. It would do that But I think it'd be a fascinating discussion what is what is the difference between the
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Islamic understanding of Qatar and the Christian understanding of the sovereignty of God Oh Inside baseball.
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I mean those always work great inside baseball you realize you just lost everybody in Australia in England You do realize that?
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when you can go to London and Spend a few days doing
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Ministry there. Oh, it makes the trip to South Africa so much and then go from there to whether we've you know
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We've sent you to various. I mean didn't we do that when you went to Australia once no No, every trip to Australia has been straight from LA was it was it
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Ukraine May have been there was a some point in which you yes a few days in London Did ministry there and then went on to the next it makes the whole trip a lot easier.
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There's no question That is really ideal. Yeah, it is it is I've I've I've still got my oyster card so I can get around the tube and I've got my and I stopped
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I've got my app right here on my phone I stopped returning all the foreign currency back to the banks. Oh, I know.
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I told you just leave the pounds there, man We're going back Lord. We're going back
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So anyways, let's do it guys. Let's let's let's be talking about this. I this is exciting.
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This is a I want to it's not That the debates that we do on the deity of Christ the reliability.
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It's not that those things are not worthwhile There's always a new audience. There's people haven't heard the other ones. There's always Something different about the character of the individual that with whom
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I'm dialoguing that might make things more clear for some person another I'm not Saying we stop doing those things, but there does need to be an expansion there does need to be a continuation of interaction on a broader spectrum and I I'm excited about the possibilities that of that happening documents and that's how the cannon was so anyway
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That's why massive documents. Well, of course, it's like basically saying so early church
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Christianity Why are your beliefs true and they may say because we have a
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Bible then you ask Why is the Bible true because it agrees with our beliefs, but why are your beliefs true?
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Because we have a Bible Why is your Bible true because it gives you a belief. So that's the kind of secular Yeah, and if that was if that was how
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The cannon was determined and that would probably be a problem but you see Who determines cannon?
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You're actually arguing against your own position here or you're you're arguing Who determined the can the
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Quran you say God did and how do you do that? Well, he only inspired Certain things there is a there is delineation to the to the body of revelation
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Given by Allah to Jabril and then through Jabril to Muhammad over time, right?
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So That's what we say we say It's not the the theological aspect of what the can is comes first Then what you're talking about is a hundred and fifty years later when
38:20
Marchione comes along and Comes up with his own cannon and starts rejecting things that Christians had always believed or Comes up with edited versions of these documents now the question is
38:36
Well, how can we determine what is what? and We're stuck looking back at this
38:44
We're stuck that by just simply the fact that we live at a later time period and so it's a matter of having a historical perspective, but to have a meaningful historical perspective is to always recognize we're looking backwards and Not to force the people at the time to have the same perspective that we have because they weren't looking backwards and so I Know you this is probably all you've heard from people or to be honest with you
39:13
I didn't mean to freeze Hamza looking like he's holding his nose on his face, but Most Christians have never thought about this any more than Muslims have thought about why they have 114
39:28
Surahs rather than 100 or 150 So again,
39:35
I don't fault you for this but I would recommend that you step back read
39:42
Kruger Hill some of the others and see that there's a
39:49
Another perspective that's much more much more consistent. And in fact, I don't know that you'd have a
39:54
Whole lot of me a grounds for really objecting to it given again
40:01
Where you have to go to establish the canon of the Quran? Which again most
40:07
Christians never thought about that either so it rarely comes up in the conversation Effectively, this is what Metzger is saying
40:12
Bruce Metzger said this is how the Bible was put together This was the standard that was used by early church fathers and and there was no agreement on the contents of the
40:24
Bible Christians to this day do not agree on the contents of the Bible.
40:30
So now that What do you mean by that? on any meaningful level the only serious canonical question
40:43
Amongst any major group you might find some little National church someplace that's sort of idiosyncratic or I suppose you could point the
40:50
Mormons or something as if they have something to do with Christianity Which clearly they don't But the only meaningful canonical argument that exists in worldwide
41:03
Christianity really is the Apocrypha and That's really not much of an argument even amongst
41:09
Roman Catholics. I'm not I know that I've done two debates on it So there there are those who get all excited about it, but let's be honest even
41:17
Rome Other than second Maccabees and some utterly absurd attempt to ground some belief in purgatory in the
41:32
Prayers of the people after finding the dead soldiers with the idols on and blah blah blah There really isn't much of an argument on that particular subject
41:42
And even a lot of Roman Catholics are willing to identify him as deuterocanonical on a second secondarily canonical basis
41:52
But like what what what issues are there with the New Testament and The books from which we would argue for example prophetically about Jesus There's no question about Isaiah or anything like that.
42:09
So so why just throw that out? You know, you've got a much we've got 66 entire books
42:21
You've got a hundred and fourteen chapters Again, it the playing field isn't the same
42:30
You have a much younger much smaller Mono authored at least from your perspective work and the necessary complexities
42:45
For a book that is written not only over 22 years but over 1 ,500 years and two major languages one minor dialect difference in some texts
42:58
But over 1 ,500 years over 40 authors Don't you recognize that it actually takes much more a much greater divine action
43:14
To produce that than a mono authored book written over 22 years that is focused upon one little area
43:21
That's only 14 % the size of the Bible. I Mean from my perspective seems fairly clear but anyway
43:31
Day from from a social cohesion perspective because we're Muslims really of tolerate with other faiths
43:37
Yes How would you take all of this practically in a few words and just basically articulate a compassionate view on that?
43:44
Look, we don't believe in the basis of Christianity biblical Christianity today because of his corruption. How would you? Articulate that to our fellow brothers and sisters in Christianity.
43:52
The best way to do that is now now Hamza. I hope I Hope you hear when
43:58
I say I Don't think you establish that and And I think now, of course,
44:05
I've had a lot more time. You're doing something brief something short. I understand that but I think most people listening to the program would probably say no you
44:12
I Think there's been a sufficient response given that you really haven't established
44:19
What you're saying is your very foundation? There's I think there's a lot more work that needs to be done here
44:26
Kit our fellow humans Brothers and sisters in humanity Christians and Jews talk to them compassionately nicely
44:34
Explained to them and put these things in front of them. A lot of them don't know these things
44:40
I have met priests in Africa priests pastors, you know people who have been bishops in some cases
44:47
They don't know these things. They don't have a clue about these things now not Adnan two things.
44:53
I've met plenty of Muslims That had never read the Quran Couldn't narrate to Hadith if their life depended on it so we all have nominal
45:08
Christians nominal Muslims and even people in leadership, but by the way had none
45:13
I Don't know if you ever saw it, but I think I played I certainly saw a video on YouTube of you taking on a
45:23
Minister in Africa in a village someplace and it really offended me.
45:31
It really offended me and here's why If I were taking on any mom in a village in Africa You know
45:44
Adnan I would use the same arguments that I use in debating you but the fact the matter is
45:51
Adnan You used arguments with that minister in Africa that you would never use with me
46:00
Because you know, I would knock them right out of the park That's a colloquialism too.
46:07
Sorry You know that I would decimate them. I would destroy them in a second.
46:12
You'd never even attempt To make the arguments you made to that minister to me
46:20
But you made them anyways and this was after you and I have debated so you knew I'd none
46:28
That is something I cannot ever do I don't know how you Explain why you would use an argument with someone, you know is unschooled and ignorant an
46:41
Argument that you know has answers That you cannot yourself Reply to but because you know that this person doesn't know the answers.
46:53
This will be effective to the group. And so you use that That is not something a
46:58
Christian can do. I did not say that's not something a Christian never does But that's not something a
47:04
Christian can consistently do and I've still
47:11
Call you on the carpet for that. You know what I'm talking about. You you know, what's on YouTube? You know what shows you in a village in Africa?
47:21
Rippin and snortin on this guy mocking him And you know that if I walked in there,
47:27
I would have handed you your head on a platter debate wise and The difference
47:35
Trina says that would never be turned around. Oh I I'm not saying
47:40
I would not have a debate with any mom any in a village and the mom might be very ignorant But I'm not going to use arguments that I know do not have meaningful responses from the other side and that's a difference between us that I will allow the
47:57
Lord to speak to your heart about Take Bible as if it came down from sky in a box and it was taken out as an established
48:04
Text without any differences or without anyone adding into it or taking out of it and they accept it as the
48:11
Word of God Okay, that's not the case as we know So in other words, the Bible has a history and a lot of Christians are ignorant of it, man
48:20
Anyone ever heard me say that to like audiences like all over the United States and other places where I've been teaching.
48:26
Yeah Can't argue that one. I I agree Problem is it's even worse on your side because your book has a history and And a much higher percentage of your people are ignorant of its history
48:49
To the point where even you have said That there is not even the slightest text of area now use of this mail recognizes.
48:57
That's not the case Your scholars recognize that's not the case But the vast majority of even imams made the statement
49:06
There is that 1920 note that that school district in Egypt got it.
49:11
Perfect And it it ignores the reality of the historical situation now again
49:22
Smaller book much younger. There's not going to be nearly as much to deal with but it still has a history and You still don't have one of these with the wonderful footnotes down there at the bottom and you
49:38
All need to have one of those you have to explain this to them with compassion And not be hostile not be polemical
49:45
Our tone has to be friendly as the Quran clearly states that you have to reason with your fellow humans
49:52
In the best way possible in the best manner possible So this is what we should do
49:57
And that doesn't mean that we hate them the fact that we are highlighting these points does not mean that we hate
50:03
Christians or Jews We don't we actually love them That's why we are taking the initiative to explain these things to them if we didn't really care about them and their salvation
50:12
Why would we talk to them? so the point here is love the point is love that we are told to love humanity not hate humanity and Part of that love is educating humanity educating ourselves primarily first of all, of course, and then educate
50:26
As the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasalam said love for an ass. Yeah, there's a tradition in Bukhari and Nass The words are and Nass itself what you love for you, which means people you say so love for and that's what you love for yourself
50:37
So it means people in general not just specifically Muslims, but people in general. That's correct Bro, does not let him Allah bless you.
50:42
Thank you for those. I mean brothers and sisters This is a summary of a very complex topic we're gonna have a start
50:48
Adnan Rashid back again to discuss these deep these topics in further detail and May Allah bless you share forward and like salam alaikum.
50:56
Rahmatullahi wabarakatuh All right, we got through it. I mean, it's only it's only a 16 and a half minute video.
51:05
It took me three programs What can I say What what can
51:12
I say? Well, what I can say is I need to go back up here and get the other one up because Did he did he did he did a quick time player there should have?
51:25
Should have our friend. What ill Ibrahim up now Hamsa I'm not
51:32
I I hope that my interaction was useful for you and I hope to be hearing from you in regards to the possibilities of things
51:42
Coming up in in London Because we may have to move quickly To put all this together.
51:50
Well, it's not uber quickly. We've done stuff faster obviously, we've got we actually have plenty of time, but you know
51:58
May is May May's may means we need to be getting to it and I'm excited about the possibilities and I hope again you will you will pray for us.
52:08
We are going to press on Because I want to get a little farther into the whale Ibrahim response
52:15
So that I can write back to him and say, okay Here's where we've been responding as it is.
52:20
It's gonna be difficult I'm gonna have to I think I'll have to ask somebody in the audience to go back over the programs
52:30
Yeah, I need I need a volunteer any volunteers in the audience Yes, you you you
52:36
Please come on for it. I need Someone to go back over the dividing lines and send me the timestamps and the dates of the programs with URLs For what
52:54
I've done so far in response to Yl So that I can put all that into a list.
53:01
It's just to give it to him. So, okay, here's Here's everything you need to look at now obviously,
53:06
I'll tell him I just did this response to Adnan and Hamza I think there's a lot of stuff there that would be of interest to well if he has time to look at it, but obviously the most important thing would be for him to be able to see the responses that I've done to him and So we need to get back to that.
53:24
So if you recall we're gonna do another 37 minutes, so we're gonna it's gonna be another jumbo.
53:30
So three jumbos in a row three days 90 minutes Shouldn't be too much grousing and complaining
53:42
Next week or next two weeks Once you know, well, we'll see we'll see how that how that works.
53:49
But anyway Where we left off back around the holidays somewhere was
54:02
What ale saying that remember when Christians say God Every time they mean father son
54:11
Holy Spirit. I think it's gonna replay here from where I've queued this up And I specifically point out no, that's not true that is not what we believe
54:27
There are many times and and I and again, this is in my book the Forgotten Trinity the
54:34
Greek word to us is generally in the vast majority of instances
54:41
Used of the father it is used a few times of the Sun as well. There's no question about that Is to 13 second
54:47
Peter 1 1 so on and so forth, but the normative Trinitarian name for the father by Paul for example is to us
54:58
The normative Trinitarian name for the Sun is courios Very rarely is the father identified as courios
55:07
Does that mean that that the father is not Lord? No, of course not
55:13
No more than is It true that the courios is not God Because in both those instances
55:21
I've now changed from using the word God as a identifier to a descriptive of nature in the same way
55:29
I did with Lord and so most of the greetings in the
55:34
New Testament in the name of God our Father in the Lord Jesus Christ, right, you know the grace of God the love of the
55:40
Lord Jesus Christ so on and so forth, these are very very common terms, but You are creating a category error a
55:50
Fundamental category error when you say well when Christians talk about God what they mean is
55:56
Father Son Holy Spirit If you're talking about that only in the broadest categories Yes, but not when we get to the text of the
56:05
New Testament Is that the case so we pick up with that? again the debate between while Ibrahim and Lincoln Liu One God and one mediator listen to this carefully first Timothy 2 5 2 5 it says food
56:22
There is what one God and and another addition now after one
56:27
God and who is one God Father Son and Holy Spirit Remember this every time the Christians say God that God is three persons.
56:34
Remember this But after that God three persons, there is another one called mediator
56:40
Who's that mediator between God and men the man Jesus Christ now now that's a that's a a very very fundamental
56:50
Misapprehension misrepresentation misuse the text. I don't I don't know of anyone Anywhere in what would be called
56:58
Christendom from any perspective that would accept that reading That's certainly not what
57:05
Paul intended by any stretch the imagination Again in his normative use when it says high scar theos
57:18
There is one God He is making a simple statement of monotheism and he's saying
57:26
High sky mess it ace. They you tie on throw pwn
57:31
There is one mediator between God and men on throw pass Christos.
57:37
Yes, oohs so Jesus holds an absolutely unique position as mediator as the one who brings about the possibility of peace and communication and reconciliation
57:57
Between God and man because of his unique nature as the
58:02
God man. He is truly man he's truly Messiah and It's interesting you didn't quote the next verse, okay, it's not relevant to your point
58:13
I get it, but you don't believe the next verse. Well You reject it
58:19
How do you say out on on T Lutron who pair upon tone? the one who gave himself
58:28
Reflexive pronoun hailed on Who gave himself in behalf of all the testimony at the proper or right time?
58:39
Um So you have the NT Lutron you have a ransom and Jesus is the one who gives it in his own self giving in his own self giving so That's actually set us set apart in the
59:01
Nestle on 28th edition as Again poetry very similar to what we had in 1st
59:08
Corinthians 8 6 as well, but you just quoted in other words it's seen as being a early creedal statement of the church an early confessional statement if you want to use something less technical and creedal a confessional statement of the church possibly a part of the hymnology of the early church and What that means is your own book?
59:30
Well at surah 4 1 2 7 again stands in alterably against the facts of history
59:41
I think that's important as well. But the reading that you gave there no
59:47
Christian would even begin to understand it That that is that is not something that anyone who is actually familiar with Paul Would come up with that's not a
59:57
Pauline reading by any any stretch of the imagination To this earlier we said what
01:00:04
God is Father Son and Holy Spirit right or wrong Then who's that mediator?
01:00:12
Jesus now how many people we have here Not only that we don't have only four
01:00:19
Jesus the Christians would say have got two nature Divine and Human Nature's do not make persons what you'll and as I explained in the
01:00:32
Forgotten Trinity again, this is This was the poorest part of your presentation
01:00:38
It really was. Um, I remember right where I was on my ride when I first heard it and I was just like whoa
01:00:45
This is this shows a real fundamental misunderstanding of the topic.
01:00:51
I mean on a level that Needs to be corrected it really does
01:00:58
You're wrong in your understanding of one God Father Son Spirit in this context
01:01:04
Because very clearly if you for example had read this in light of Romans 8
01:01:12
That tremendous passage that talks about God as judge and yet there's one mediator the intercessor
01:01:21
Jesus Clearly showing the distinction between father and son you're reading of one
01:01:30
God is wrong and Then your understanding of the hypothetic Union is wrong
01:01:37
You don't you the man Christ Jesus is functioning a positively to mess it ace they ooh
01:01:48
And so you have the father and You have the son who has taken on human flesh and so he has he is one person with two natures
01:02:00
That's what Paul's talking about and my question for you is Even though you're completely wrong at this point and you're reading of this text
01:02:09
It still seems that you know more about what Trinity what Christians believe then the author of the
01:02:15
Quran did Why is that? Why do you seem to know more about these issues than the author of the
01:02:25
Quran did Because you've had more exposure to them But of course if the author of the
01:02:32
Quran is Allah Allah knew exactly what Christians believed. So why is there no meaningful interaction?
01:02:40
That's a question. I keep asking I get lots of different answers Not necessarily consistent answers, but I do get lots of your answers.
01:02:47
So how many do how many do we have now five? Apparently five three persons and another mediator and that mediator
01:02:56
Jesus Christ. So how come Jesus Christ is here and there How come it's quadrinity now, it's not
01:03:02
Trinity anymore This is where the confusion came from. Okay, the word.
01:03:08
Okay, the confusion didn't come from the text the confusion came from from you We're not confused about the text
01:03:16
And it's it's fairly easy to demonstrate where your confusion Came from and it's because you're trying to read a
01:03:24
Trinitarian text through the lens of a Unitarian book That's always going to lead to major problems and The interesting thing is well, you would be one of the first people to recognize when
01:03:38
Christians Import a lens into the reading of the
01:03:43
Quran That you would say they shouldn't import into it. Now, of course,
01:03:49
I would argue that there should be a Consistency in light of surah 5 from Torah through injeel to Quran if the argument of surah 5 46 and following is to 45 follow is to make any sense, but there isn't that consistency between these two
01:04:12
Intimate knowledge on the part of the New Testament of the Old Testament constant textual citation then you have the
01:04:19
Grand Canyon and Then you have the Quran No, no vocal only oral tradition only
01:04:30
No intimate understanding Grand Canyon Sort of makes that argument
01:04:37
And see the problem is that that surah 5 argument sounds to me like one of the places where Muhammad is actually establishing his credentials
01:04:43
As a prophet as one to receive revelation in the great Abrahamic tradition So that thing falls apart
01:04:51
You've got a problem got a problem. Do you remember all who Allah who I had we mentioned earlier? He is
01:04:56
Allah the one and only the word I had in Arabic means one and only there is another Hebrew word called
01:05:01
I had actually my Excuse me My friend Lincoln spend about one hour explained to us the word
01:05:07
I had in one of our private discussions and I'm refuting that today What does it really mean?
01:05:15
Lincoln would argue that the word I had means compound unity. It doesn't mean one single being it means compound unity
01:05:22
The Christian would read Deuteronomy 6 4 as follows. You know Israel the Lord our God the
01:05:28
Lord is Compound unity. How did you come up with this description? The word is very innocent.
01:05:34
Okay now Hopefully if you've listened to my response of this point, you already know where you're wrong here, right?
01:05:42
I Mean, I understand what Lincoln is saying If God Is in fact used in the
01:05:49
Old Testament, you know You're even gonna bring up the the the one cluster of grapes
01:05:55
It's a cluster of grapes, but a cluster of grapes is a compound unity, but that's not the point
01:06:02
You're assuming and and this is where I've corrected you in in the past I'm not holding you accountable for it be it'd be sort of like one
01:06:11
Roman Catholic apologist did to me where he came out with a book and Criticized me for not refuting his book, even though his book was written ten years after my book had been written
01:06:24
So so it would be just as silly for me to be sitting going. Well, I already told you about this
01:06:30
Well, I told you about this after you did this so but I do have to make reference back to things that we've said we've said before just so that we we can keep the
01:06:41
The program going and actually accomplish something eventually get to the end of this But as I said earlier
01:06:49
Hopefully you you see where your problem is. Now you think that we are saying that from the beginning
01:06:58
God's revelation of his nature has been triune There are some people who actually say that well your argument you can take that up with them.
01:07:06
I believe that while God has always been triune and While there are a number of prophetic
01:07:15
Statements in the Old Testament that in light of New Testament revelation
01:07:21
Show us this Yahweh and Sodom and Gomorrah and kissing the
01:07:28
Sun and and All the proof all the messianic prophetic, you know Isaiah 9 and and there's there's a number of places where were these these issues come out
01:07:40
That the real Revelation of the Doctrine of the Trinity is between the
01:07:46
Old and New Testaments. And so I don't have to argue About I don't have to try to shoehorn
01:07:57
Plurality or or Person nature person being distinctions into a cod in Deuteronomy 6 for I don't have to do that Because this is before the incarnation of the
01:08:13
Sun and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit instead what you should see is
01:08:19
What I point out in 1st Corinthians chapter 8 and that is that this echad
01:08:26
Becomes the the twice repeated haise In 1st
01:08:32
Corinthians chapter 8 there is one God haise theos echad
01:08:39
Elohim and There is haise kudios echad
01:08:44
Yahweh Jesus Christ so you have to deal with the expansion of These words by a monotheistic
01:08:57
Jew Now you may be one of those that you know, try to do the Paul's terrible horrible guy thing
01:09:04
I don't know but That's what you have to deal with and So this isn't this isn't really a big argument for us.
01:09:14
I Mean there are places where echad is used of groups of people clusters of grapes that kind of stuff but Since you're not making the distinction between being in person.
01:09:26
You're really not dealing with what our argument is anyways Because we believe that God is one in being
01:09:35
We just don't believe he's one in person and In light of 1st
01:09:41
Corinthians 8 6 and 7 this text is ours you have to cut that off you have to and again,
01:09:48
I see that as a difficult thing for you to do as a Muslim because You're on the far side of us and your own text
01:10:01
As Far as I know and maybe you you can think of something that I'm not really thinking of but as far as I know the only positive thing that Quran says but Any other religion at all is about us my
01:10:16
Christians so you've got to somehow get over us to get back to this text and try to try to cut the connection between Old and New Testament and Again You may do so but it will require you.
01:10:32
This is interesting. Think about it this way It will require you to argue on a higher level and with more information than the
01:10:40
Quran ever does on this subject And why might that be?
01:10:46
didn't Allah know in Eternity past when the well Ron wasn't written.
01:10:53
It's it's eternal. So can't even ask questions about that, I guess but I often wonder in light of the
01:11:04
Orthodox Sunni understanding of the eternality of the
01:11:10
Quran How you would answer a question? Didn't God know
01:11:17
The context into which the Quran was going to go Because it strikes me that One of the things that has shown that has greatly enhanced biblical studies and greatly enhanced the
01:11:33
Christian faith Has been the result of the attacks of Unbelievers post -enlightenment unbelievers on the
01:11:48
Bible has been an ever deepening scholarship of the Bible and Some of the things that for example for me are most
01:11:59
Comforting to my heart most assuring to my heart come from recognizing the ability of the scriptures to withstand the most rigorous examination, but That doesn't seem to be the case for the
01:12:16
Quran I mean from a critical perspective The Quran You can't ask the questions of it
01:12:30
That give so much light to those of us who believe in the Bible You can't ask did
01:12:37
Muhammad's How was Muhammad's understanding of Christianity impacted by his meeting with the
01:12:47
Christians from Najran and Is this reflected in the text of the Quran?
01:12:52
I think it is. I think surah 3 shows this but If there's nothing of Muhammad in the
01:13:00
Quran then What his understanding was is irrelevant.
01:13:06
It would it would only be relevant to The The scholars of Hadith and the study of because at least in Hadith you as long as it's not
01:13:16
These could see but you as long as it's just Muhammad and it's not a revelatory thing
01:13:22
Then you might be able to ask some questions about did he grow in his understanding is like that But you can't and when it comes to Quran because of its uncreated nature because of its
01:13:34
It's disconnected from history, but revealed in history. It's Very difficult to get a handle on that and it
01:13:44
Just just an area that you might want to think about. I think it's I think it's important one. How did you make it compound?
01:13:51
That is what we will see now and as I said earlier This is the question for Lincoln if I give the Bible to anyone and ask him to explain this he wouldn't ever
01:13:59
Come up with the conclusion that God is more than one person. So But well, you have not even started to touch the reason why we do
01:14:09
You have you haven't started You seemingly accept that the father and the son are distinguished from one another
01:14:18
Um, you have no reason for believing that the Holy Spirit is Jabril that that's just didn't even go there but If you're going to make this kind of statement, then why not deal with the text that plainly identified
01:14:34
Jesus as Yahweh Deal with the text where Jesus is worshipped
01:14:41
Deal with Jesus's use of the I am sayings of himself Deal with the text where Jesus is called
01:14:47
God Um Creator eternal
01:14:54
Where he himself describes himself as the Son of God in the context of people accusing him of blasphemy
01:15:02
Which if he were merely a razzle of Allah his first words would have been
01:15:09
No, I am would never make such a claim. I've never made such a claim, you know, sir 5 1 16 17 so -and -so
01:15:17
Um, so you're really not interacting with The argument as we present it
01:15:25
There is strong evidence. I mean if someone like Bart Ehrman can come to the conclusion that all the gospel writers presented
01:15:34
Jesus as A divine figure in different ways, but as a divine figure
01:15:41
There's got to be something behind that now for Bart, you know, he's just your good old agnostic guy
01:15:50
But one of the series is someday I'm gonna have to finish up because we were doing it and I haven't gotten back to it In forever, and I'm sorry about that but You know his his debate
01:16:02
On the deity of Christ amazingly clear Where he he's he's having to be to just simply say well, you know,
01:16:10
I just I just reject this I reject that he just rejects it on different foundations than you do and that's that that's an interesting thing to To look at as well.
01:16:22
Does it mean what does the word ahead means it means numerous things? It means a lot of things and none of them mean compound unity
01:16:32
None of them there is another word for one means compound unity. I will show it to you soon. So first it means
01:16:39
The Cardinal number one as found in Genesis 1 9, then
01:16:44
God said let the okay you spent a lot of time on this You did spend a lot of time on this and you didn't need to I Think what
01:16:54
I'm gonna try to do is I'm gonna find Where you got past this?
01:17:01
And I think we're getting pretty close to the end of your opening statement here Because this isn't really
01:17:07
You know, maybe you and Lincoln had some discussion about it. Okay fine, but it's in light of what
01:17:14
I've said It's clearly not Overly relevant because we're not disputing it
01:17:23
And if the primary revelation of the Doctrine the Trinity is between the Testaments Then this becomes irrelevant.
01:17:30
So I'm gonna pick up at that point I'm gonna find if there is anything else in your opening. I will pick it up I'll try to track it down But what
01:17:39
I want to do in the last 12 minutes or so of the program is actually to completely shift gears and What I want to do is
01:17:52
I want to respond to someone on Twitter. I want to respond to a fellow by the name of Ron OFS Ron OFS a
01:18:06
Roman Catholic who wrote me two tweet short Messages and I just want to respond to them in the last few minutes the program here and The Akkad thing gives me an opportunity of doing so This was a day ago, so this is yesterday
01:18:24
Dr. White first of all, I admire you and your apologetic work with Muslims and Mormons, JWs, etc I listen to the DL occasionally and enjoy the discussions
01:18:31
I also listen to your debates on sermon audio. Actually, he says I did have solo Ecclesia in mind when
01:18:36
I tweeted I just listened to DL where you were discussing a caller's interaction with Catholic apologists So Ecclesia, of course came up and you did your usual explanation.
01:18:45
So I fired off a tweet to you I think Father Pacwa answered your claim regarding solo Ecclesia in the soloscripture debate
01:18:50
And if you're looking for a challenger for future debates on that subject, please look no further than that fine gentleman
01:18:55
Now, let me just stop right there. I do not believe that Mitch Meaningfully refuted the charge of solo
01:19:02
Ecclesia And I'd like to see how you think that he did
01:19:08
The reality remains that every single Roman Catholic I have ever spoken to Ron.
01:19:14
Do you believe in? the bodily assumption of Mary You believe it is a dogma of the
01:19:20
Catholic faith Revealed by God and that you cannot even so much as think otherwise
01:19:26
Without being excommunicated from the church, that's what munificent munificent isimus deus
01:19:35
Said as you know, if you believe that then you believe in solo
01:19:40
Ecclesia call it what you want Avoid the proper terminology if you want but the fact the matter is
01:19:49
No apostle ever taught it no apostle ever bound it to anyone Nobody in the early church believed in it
01:19:56
Nobody nearly church bounded to anyone and the only way you believe it as a dogma is because you believe in solo
01:20:01
Ecclesia because you believe that the church the Roman Church defines what scripture is infallibly defines a canon and What scripture says?
01:20:15
well infallibly define scripture infallibly defines what is tradition and And infallibly defines what tradition means what it says
01:20:26
Now no Church can be under the authority of that which is dependent upon that church for its definition
01:20:37
So you cannot say that the Roman Magisterium can be corrected by Scripture and tradition when only the
01:20:47
Registerium can tell you what scripture is and what it says and what tradition is and what it says and the result of that has been the dogmatization of beliefs
01:20:56
That have nothing whatsoever to do at all With the teachings of the
01:21:03
Christian faith That's solo Ecclesia What term do you use?
01:21:11
For the positive Roman Catholic teaching that includes the infallibility of the church the infallibility of the
01:21:18
Pope and The ability to define dogmas such as the Immaculate Conception bodily assumption of Mary What do you call that?
01:21:28
What do you call a church that powerful is
01:21:33
Rome reformable on what basis? It certainly seems to me at the current Pope Okay, you've got you but those though that's an epistemological problem you have
01:21:44
If y 'all want to start backtracking on stuff, that's up to you Most of my Catholic apologist friends aren't interested in doing that So it's a rather me rehashing the same arguments, which
01:21:54
I'm not sure you listen to anyway or that I accepted or that were acceptable With either
01:21:59
Aiken or Pacwa and we had talked about the only debate Jimmy Aiken and I've ever done
01:22:05
That was a radio debate on On basically perseverance of the
01:22:11
Saints where Aiken Slaughtered the Greek syntax of John 6 and later admitted that his argument on John 6 was completely bogus
01:22:19
I'm sorry, if your primary argument is based upon is bogus. You didn't win that debate
01:22:26
I Just pointed you back to them 140 140 characters only a soundbite
01:22:31
I wasn't aware of this app then to write longer responses, which is tweet short As far as Aiken's argument, he may have fumbled the
01:22:41
Greek in John 6, but I think the rest of his argument was pretty sound Well, how is his main argument and that left my entire argument on John 6 untouched?
01:22:51
I don't think you're overly fair in your analysis I've never met anyone who thought Jimmy Aiken won that that encounter not once nobody at least knows anything about the subject
01:23:00
I did not think that this was his main argument, but I will listen again Perhaps you are correct though incorrect about your premise.
01:23:06
Then the other one was this When you talk about the Catholic faith,
01:23:11
I do not recognize it as the faith I have grown in and come to love over the last 31 years really
01:23:19
That's interesting Is that because I'm being inaccurate, you know, you accuse me of inaccuracy and the only thing you come up with Was so it was your disagreement with the term sola ecclesia.
01:23:31
I've addressed Papacy priesthood purgatory
01:23:37
Mary the Saints justification Indulgences, you mean I've been accurate and everything
01:23:44
I've said about that. Then how can you not recognize Rome in that? Unless you're picking and choosing
01:23:51
Are you a cafeteria style Catholic? I mean, I don't know
01:23:56
I can't tell from this It is like if I'm remembering correctly the analogy used by Thomas Howard in lead the kindly light
01:24:05
That you are staying on the outside of a great Cathedral with a large stained -glass window You try to make sense the window But all you see is muddled and dark
01:24:12
Were you standing on the inside you would see God's light illuminating the story told in the window of the work of the Holy Spirit Of the centuries.
01:24:18
Well, that's really nice, but it doesn't change the fact that the Bishop of Rome murdered Murdered the
01:24:24
Waldensians, does it? Does that change the fact that I can stand in st.
01:24:30
Peter's today and look up in the cupola and See the alleged
01:24:35
Petrine promise which Rome has lied about forever in a day as far as patristic interpretation goes and that it's up there in gold and That gold came from people selling indulgences
01:24:49
Do you recognize that Rome Ron? I?
01:24:56
I've stood in that place in that gaudy gold encrusted
01:25:03
Marble encrusted place and it disgusted me Yeah, we see different things but I don't think it's because of What you think it is?
01:25:13
That's a sense since I get when I hear you trying to make sense The mystery is the sacraments and the Word of God given to us in Scripture apostolic tradition the teaching authority of his church um,
01:25:22
I don't believe the Word of God is Given to you in apostolic tradition because you can't tell me what it is
01:25:33
You've called the bodily assumption Mary apostolic tradition. It's a lie Ron The Apostles never taught it it's a lie.
01:25:40
You can't prove that you can't back it up. You just accept it because you've been told but it's a lie and The teaching authority is church is what tells you that's in the apostolic tradition.
01:25:53
Hmm. That sounds like so like lazy again, doesn't it? Yeah, it does St. John knew what
01:26:00
Jesus meant when he said truly I say to you that a man must be born of water in the Spirit And he passed that down to his disciples and they passed it down and so on That is apostolic tradition no apostolic tradition
01:26:11
Ron is Accepting what the
01:26:17
Apostles said and Not modifying it now the
01:26:24
Apostle Paul said therefore having been justified by faith We have peace with God through our
01:26:29
Lord Jesus Christ and If you want to stand in the apostolic tradition, then you believe what the
01:26:35
Apostles taught The Apostles didn't teach about purgatory they didn't teach about indulgences.
01:26:41
I didn't teach about Popes They didn't exalt Mary didn't do any of this stuff and they taught the gospel
01:26:47
That was based upon a completed and finished work of Christ. Not a miraculous transubstantiation That requires you to have some kind of philosophical system
01:26:55
That would not become general in Western culture and civilization till after a thousand years after Jesus. That's not apostolic tradition
01:27:06
So that if you are standing outside you don't get that tradition Yeah, um,
01:27:11
I don't get those additional things that are used to overthrow the teaching of the Bible, you're right I don't get them because I want to stand with the
01:27:17
Apostles not with those who have perverted their message That is the tragedy of the Reformation. I know you'll have something to say and reply, but I just wanted to leave you with that Yes, I do have something to say and reply as I just did
01:27:30
The tragedy Ron is that you have accepted the perversions of God's Word Over God's Word.
01:27:40
You are in the same position that the Pharisees were who accepted the Korban rule and Jesus told them you are responsible to examine
01:27:50
Any tradition even one that claims to come from God on the basis of Scripture Not the other way around.
01:27:57
You're the one standing on the outside and the only thing excluding you from the inside is your acceptance of human tradition that Violates the very teaching of Scripture So want to respond to those managed to sneak them in there right there toward the end fit everything together.
01:28:15
I Take absolutely no responsibility for what's coming over the next couple of weeks Hands -off
01:28:24
I'm gonna be gone So we'll see we'll see you Who knows who knows but keep an eye on the blog keep an eye on the
01:28:34
Facebook page and we'll see what happens Looking forward to seeing my friends in the Charlotte area and then down the g3 conference in Atlanta pray for us and remember
01:28:45
We're trying to get to South Africa and Hong Kong. The travel link is there on the website.