July 19, 2017 Show with Michael Haykin on “The Armies of the Lamb: The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming on ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 19th day of July 2017.

In studio with me is my co -host the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Hello. And we are excited to have back as a returning guest, indeed,

I say without exaggeration, one of my very favorite guests, Dr. Michael Haken, who is professor of church history and biblical spirituality and director of the

Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

Today we are addressing his book, The Armies of the Lamb, The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller, and it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr.

Michael Haken. It's great to be with you and Buzz. Hello. And Dr.

Haken, for our listeners, and this is kind of an update for you perhaps, but there has been some amazing things going on here with Iron Sharpens Iron.

We seem to have passed a certain mark in our history where there is a flood of new listeners who have discovered our program, and we're getting contacted every single day now by people who have never heard of the program, who are falling in love with it.

And so there may be a number of listeners who have never heard you on this program, and perhaps they know nothing about the

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. So perhaps you could tell our listeners something about that great institution.

Well, it's the oldest Baptist seminary in the SBC, founded in 1859 by four brother

Calvinists, James Pettigrew Boyce, Basil Manley Jr.,

John Broaddus, and a man named William Williams. It was founded in Greenville and would eventually move to Louisville in the 1870s after the

Civil War. But in its early years, the first 40 years of its existence, it was a

Calvinistic Baptist school. The Abstract of Principles, its time -honored

Confession of Faith was an abstract that was drawn from the Second London Confession by Basil Manley Jr.

During the course of the 20th century, it went through a variety of theological turns.

By the 70s and 80s, it was, from one perspective, a liberal school by and large, what they would call moderate, but it was definitely liberal theologically.

And then by the grace of God, with the conservative resurgence within the SBC, Dr. Albert Mohler was appointed president at the young age of 33 in 1993, and the transformation of the school has been absolutely remarkable.

From probably 90 % of the faculty opposed to his appointment, he assembled after they had all gone by 1995 -96 pretty well.

There would only have been two or three men who stood with him. He's rebuilt the faculty, it's a tremendous body of teachers now, and the school has increased from 1 ,200 when he was appointed president to well over 5 ,000 now.

And largest seminary in the world, God has richly blessed the school, given it a tremendous window of opportunity in our day, and would urge your listeners to pray and support the school in whatever way they can.

Indeed, and tell us something specifically about the

Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies, where you are the director.

Yeah, when I was appointed to the faculty in 2007, one of the things that came with me, as it were, was this center, and its immediate goal is to really educate and to remind people about our great heritage as Baptists, and particularly

Calvinistic Baptists, because Fuller was such. And so we put on regularly two conferences a year, a big one in the fall, one in the spring.

They don't always focus on Baptist history, but they certainly touch on key elements that are important for Baptists in our own day to know about our heritage as Christians and as Baptists.

We've also published a journal, we have an online presence with the website, theandrefullercenter .org,

and we're also engaged in providing a critical edition of the works of Andrew Fuller, who obviously we'll get into a little bit in the program.

Now that's quite a massive undertaking that you're involved in with Andrew Fuller as far as this new work regarding his life and his teachings, is it not?

Yeah, it is. It's at this point 16 to 17 volumes. I'm thrilled that the publishing house is

De Gruyter, Walter De Gruyter. It's an academic publishing house, so the editions that we're doing of his works are full -fledged, solid, academically solid, credible, critical editions of his work.

By that we mean that they are editions that go back to the last edition that Fuller would have had his hands on, in which he would have had a control of the publishing.

So we're going back to the very words we hope of Fuller, because documents and books get changed over the years.

People edit them, change them to sometimes fit different contexts. Usually the changes are minor, but sometimes they're major.

And also in addition to the critical edition, it's also fully annotated so that issues that may not be clear to contemporary readers are made clear, and then each of them has a substantial, ranging from 35 to 60, 70 page introduction that outlines the nature of the theology and the context of the particular work that is being published in that volume.

We have three currently out. They're not cheap. We are hoping, and De Gruyter has promised this, once all of the hardback editions are published, which we're hopeful we'll be able to get it done by 2020, 2021, they will publish a paperback version, very similar to what

Yale has done for the works of Edwards. They did the hardback version, 32, 33 volumes, and they're now publishing a paperback version of a good number of those volumes, which is considerably cheaper.

And I'm assuming that folks, if they have more information that they'd like to gather on that, they can go to andrewfullercenter .org?

Yes, there is contact info at the andrewfullercenter .org website. They can contact me, mhaykin, m -h -a -y -k -i -n -n -s -b -t -s -dot -e -d -u.

And it's a resource that should be in every seminary library that prides itself on being evangelical, conservative, biblical, and there may well be pastors who can convince their congregations, hey, this needs to be something that they give them.

If you buy the hardback, it'll probably run around $2 ,500 to $3 ,000.

So it's not a small investment, but the importance of Fuller, which will become clearer as we go along, is he really is the major theologian of Baptist life in the 19th century, and he stands at the fountainhead of the globalization of Christianity, because he's the man who really stands behind William Carey, who's often described as the father of modern missions.

And so Fuller is a very, very important figure. Well, I'm going to announce our email address right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Michael Haykin about Andrew Fuller, and our email address is c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Well, tell us something about Andrew Fuller's youth, what religious background, if any, he was raised in, and how our

Lord providentially, eventually drew Andrew to himself and saved him by his grace and mercy.

Fuller was born in really the heartland of Puritan territory in England.

He's born in an area of England that consists of four counties, Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, and Cambridgeshire, which is called

East Anglia, historically. And that's where significant numbers of the

Puritans came from. Cambridge University was kind of a seedbed of Puritanism, so he was raised in a

Puritan home, in some respects. You might, given the fact that Puritanism was a 17th century phenomenon, he's born in 1754.

It's a bit after the Puritans, but his family traced their roots back into that kind of milieu. Were they

Paedo -Baptist Congregationalists? Congregationalists. But they were not

Paedo -Baptists? One of his, his mother started to attend, and his grandmother started to attend a

Baptist, particular Baptist, or Calvinistic Baptist congregation in a place called Soham, S -O -H -A -M.

It's a market town, so about 3 ,000 people at the time when Fuller lived there. It would be the center of activity for a radius of about 20 miles.

It's not that far from Cambridge University, but most of the Baptists in Fuller's day would not have had the advantage of going to university, partly because of education, sorry, finances, but also partly because of the fact that you could not graduate from Cambridge unless you were

Anglican. And so Fuller was raised in a farming home. His parents were dairy farmers.

They rented a farm. When he was 12, he was taken out of school, as many would want to do in that day in the middle and lower classes, and he began to work the farm.

Regretfully, his minister was a hyper -Calvinist. One of the big issues that Fuller wrestles with in his ministry is hyper -Calvinism.

In fact, didn't you say that his mother was in a strict Baptist church, which would be very common among the strict

Baptists, the hyper -Calvinism? Yes, it was. Yes, very much so. Hyper -Calvinism, its roots probably go back, if you want to trace them, to a man named

Joseph Hussey in Cambridge, who was a congregationalist, but he had major influence upon a man named

John Skepp, who in turn influenced two key figures, John Brine, a

Baptist minister in London, and John Gill, also a Baptist minister, and probably the preeminent

Baptist theologian prior to Fuller. Between 1700 and the 1850s, maybe 19, even as late as 1900,

Gill and Fuller were the two major Baptist theologians, really, even upon American Baptists.

I mean, over here, there was division between what we call the Gillites and Fullerites. You find that kind of conflict, theological conflict, in Kentucky, for example.

Is that because of the high Calvinism that Gill had and the more Irenic, if you, for lack of a better term,

Irenic Calvinism that Fuller had? Yes, that's exactly it. And if you could define,

I'm sorry if I interrupted you, you can complete a thought if you were going to say something, but I want you to define hyper -Calvinism, and I know that some of this may get repetitive, but since we have new listeners that discover this program, there are a lot of people, as you know, who, when they hear hyper -Calvinism, they're thinking of people like you and me.

They're not thinking of what it actually means. Yeah, I mean, frequently in the course of the late 20th century, since the rediscovery of the

Doctrines of Grace, you know, 1960s onwards, Calvinists like us are often described as hyper -Calvinists, but that's really bearing false witness on the part of those who so describe us.

Hyper -Calvinism is a distinct theological position. It never emerges without there being a substantial ground of Calvinism prior to it, and the

Puritan movement, which was the ground out of which hyper -Calvinism came, really stressed a biblical theology, and hyper -Calvinism emphasizes two or three things.

One that is critical is eternal justification. The hyper -Calvinists believe that justification is from eternity past, so that means that prior to one's conversion, you are not under the wrath of God, that God looks on you with favor in one sense, and this is obviously really dangerous, because it can lead to antinomianism, and frequently in the 18th century, antinomianism went hand -in -hand with hyper -Calvinism.

And I think, if I'm not mistaken, the last time we had you on the program,

I think that you and our mutual friend and brother Tom Nettles have a bit of a friendly disagreement over whether or not

John Gill could accurately be labeled a hyper -Calvinist. We do. Dr.

Nettles would dissent from that. I would affirm that, because although Gill is an avowed enemy of any form of antinomianism, doctrinal or practical, obviously, he does believe, and he is committed to eternal justification, very, very clearly.

And so whether or not Gill followed through in his own ministry with failing to urge the lost to come to Christ, Olin Sundry, that is, certainly men who sat under him or read his writings did fail in that regard.

And that would be the second major characteristic of hyper -Calvinism, which is a rejection of the free offer of the gospel.

And, of course, there are different mutations of that, like, for instance, there are the primitive

Baptists, many of whom believe that the gates of heaven are much wider than Orthodox Christians, meaning biblically sound

Christians, not Eastern Orthodox. And then you have, on the other end of the spectrum, you have many in the Netherlands Reformed movement and other branches that make the gates of heaven much, much, much more narrow than they actually are.

Yeah, so, yeah, you do. It's, again, very true to say that there are different permutations of the way hyper -Calvinism expresses itself.

And it's probably the two areas, you know, today, the two communions today that would be hyper -Calvinist are the, as you say, the primitive

Baptists, and also, and many of them are better than their theology, to be honest.

And then also some within the very conservative Dutch Reformed community, and the key one there being the

Netherlands Reformed. So this is the background that Andrew Fuller is raised in, and when in his life did he actually realize that he needed a savior, and when is there a noted conversion that took place in his life, or a transformation?

Yeah, in the late 1700s, around 1799, he was asked by a young woman in Liverpool named

Mariah Hope, if she knew of him because her father was a very key financial supporter of Fuller, and his ministry, and the

Baptist Missionary Society that Fuller was involved in. And she asked

Fuller if he would write out for her the story of his conversion. That story would be picked up, and he wrote it in two letters, two or three letters.

That story would be picked up, published. The original letters, it was thought, were long lost, but very interestingly, and this is going to be of great value to the critical edition we're doing,

I was contacted by a woman about two years ago now from Australia who actually possesses the letters, and everybody thought they'd been lost well back in the 19th century, but they had actually been transmitted in a body of letters to this woman, to a friend of this woman.

Anyway, Fuller sat under the preaching of this man, John Eve, who was a

Hyper -Calvinist minister at Soham, and basically turned him off. By the age of 13, he knew the man had nothing to say to him as an unbeliever, and he stopped listening to him.

But God obviously had different plans for Fuller's life. Now, one of the supposed marks of spirituality in Hyper -Calvinist theology was that if a person who is unconverted is going about their daily work, and suddenly, unbidden, unplanned, a

Bible verse came to their mind, that was a word from God. Very interesting that the

Hyper -Calvinism, at least in the English variety of the 18th century, had a kind of charismatic element to it.

And people were looking for this word from God, even an audible word from God.

Yeah, this is true even with the Netherlands Reform, some kind of strange thing similar to that, maybe not identical, even though they're strict cessationists in most respects.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And so, Fuller was working out in the field, and suddenly, a verse from Romans 6, you are not under the law, but under grace, came to him.

And he assumed God was telling him he was converted, because this was part of his tradition.

He spent that day rejoicing, weeping with joy, but he said the next day dawned, and the event was as if it had been, you know, the blowing of the wind through his hair, it was gone.

And Fuller had a deep religious experience, but he was not converted, which is very, very telling, especially important for our day, that men and women can go through deep, profound religious experiences, but that's not conversion.

And so, Fuller spent the next six months, he said, and still wedded to his sins, and then about six months later, he had a similar event, where he began to think about what had taken place, and realized he had spent the six months without any concern, a love for God and His Word, or His people, and concluded he was backslidden.

God had told him he was generally converted, but he must be backslidden. And again, he said,

I went through the day weeping in remorse for having wasted all those months, and my eyes, my cheeks were swollen with weeping.

Again, the following day, I woke with nary a thought for prayer or for God. And he would spend the next year again like this, or a good part of the year.

Finally, he had the third experience, where he realizes that he is not saved, and he has abused

God's grace, and that God would be perfectly just to send him to hell. Another part of hyper -Calvinist thinking was that you had to go to Christ for salvation.

You had to first figure out, are you among the elect? Because God's only going to save the elect.

Which is true, but they get it backwards. They get the idea, you first figure out, if I'm among the elect, then

I can go to God. Because one of the reasons why they did not offer the gospel freely to all and sundry, was if you urged somebody who was not among the elect to turn to Christ, then you were telling him something that God wasn't going to do for him.

And so Fuller is laboring under this misapprehension, but in the meantime, he's going through a genuine conversion.

He said, I did not believe I had a warrant to come to Christ. But he said, taking Job's verse, if he slay me, he slay me.

And he took also comfort in the example of Esther, who, when she went before the king,

Ahasuerus, did so at risk of her life, because it was illegal to go into the presence of the king without a warrant, without him calling you.

But Fuller did so, trusting in the mercy of the Lord Jesus. And in 1769, in the fall of 1769, he said,

I found rest for my soul. And that was his genuine conversion, age of 14, 15.

Praise God. And when did he in his life realize that he had the call to the ministry placed by God upon his heart?

Well, he's baptized the following year in 1770, in the spring of 1770 in Soham. There's a little river that runs through the town, and I found that river, and that's where Fuller would be baptized.

None of the Baptist churches except for one in London had an indoor baptistry. And in fact, some of the strategy of the

Baptists, some Baptists, was to do open air baptisms in rivers and lakes and ponds, because it would invariably draw a crowd, and they could preach.

So Fuller was baptized. There was a controversy within the congregation.

Eve had to leave in 1771, and within a year or so, Fuller is being asked to speak, to give a word.

And by 1775, he is called to be the pastor. The only problem is, the only preaching he knows is that of John Eve.

And so he begins initially to preach like a hyper -Calvinist. He knows it didn't do him any good, but he doesn't know any other

Bible. And does he actually believe it, though, even though he knew it didn't do any good?

Does he believe? What are you saying? Well, yes, in a sense, but he's not freely offering the gospel, even though he knew that Eve's ministry hadn't done him any good in that regard.

But he won't offer the gospel either. He said, working my way through to the free offer of the gospel was like working my way out of a labyrinth.

And he begins to write a book, which will become in, published in 1785, it'll become

The Gospel Worthy of All Acceptation. And it's a tremendous, tremendous book in which he defends the free offer of the gospel, and also emphasizes the onus that lies on the minister, that if they do not urge the lost to come to Christ, the blood of those souls is on their hands.

It's a very short step from that to the idea of missions. Why did you title one of your books that discusses

Andrew Fuller, The Armies of the Lamb? Well, because this rediscovery in Baptist circles of the free offer of the gospel also involves a rethinking of the nature of ecclesiology.

What is the church? And Fuller had inherited from his Puritan background, which goes back into the

Reformation, and then the group of people we call separatists, people like Robert Brown and so on, that the church is marked by three things.

The preaching of the word, the proper administration of the ordinances, a baptism in the

Lord's Supper, and church discipline. And what Fuller comes to realize is that the church also has an imperative of mission.

And this goes, obviously, out of his fight with hyper -Calvinism, that many of these churches justified their failure to not only engage in home evangelization but oversees evangelization by arguing that the gospel in the apostolic era had been sent to the nations.

The nations had refused it. It was no longer incumbent upon any of God's churches to take the gospel there again.

And so Fuller comes to the conviction that the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ are the armies of the

Lamb in this great battle against Satan and extending the kingdom of the Lord Jesus to the ends of the earth.

Amen. We're going to go to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, and there are already a number of people waiting to have their questions asked and answered, and we will get to each one of you as God permits in regard to the time restraint we have.

But if anybody else would like to get online, as it were, send us an email with a question for Dr.

Michael Haken at chrisarnsen .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter such as if you disagree with your own pastor's theology or something like that.

We'll be right back, God willing, after these messages with Dr. Michael Haken and our discussion on The Armies of the

Lamb, The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller. So don't go away. One sure way all

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This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Dr. Michael Haken, a professor of church history and biblical spirituality and director of the

Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. Today, we are discussing

Dr. Haken's book, The Armies of the Lamb, The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller, published by Joshua Press.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

We have a number of callers, as I mentioned earlier, not callers, emailers, listeners who have submitted questions via email to us that are waiting to have their questions asked and answered by you,

Dr. Haken, and one of them is a very fascinating individual who is actually going to be my guest coming up soon on Iron Coming up in September, on September 8th, and his name is

Costi Hinn, C -o -s -t -i Hinn, H -i -n -n, and if that name

Hinn sounds familiar, he is the nephew of none other than Benny Hinn, the world -renowned

Word of Faith Pentecostal faith healer, and as Costi would say, world -renowned heretic, even though he loves him as an uncle, but Costi Hinn has become a

Reformed Baptist, a believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace, and he is pastor of adult ministry at a thoroughly

Calvinistic congregation in Tustin, California, Mission Bible Church, so he will be our guest coming up,

God willing, on Friday, the 8th of September, 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, so mark your calendars for that, but Costi has a question for you,

Dr. Hakin. His question is, you've written about Andrew Fuller's statement in his final letter to his friend

John Ryland in which he wrote, I have preached and written much against the abuse of the doctrine of grace, but that doctrine is all my salvation and all my desire.

I have no other hope than from salvation by mere sovereign efficacious grace through the atonement of my

Lord and Savior. Clearly Fuller thought the grace of God and his sovereignty in salvation were doctrines worth living and dying for.

Why is his understanding of the doctrines of grace and having a proper view of the sovereignty of God and salvation essential to a healthy spiritual life?

Excellent question. Yeah, Fuller would argue that this, first of all, puts us in a proper perspective to God.

I mean, if, as Fuller argues, and I think rightly so, God is the author of our salvation from beginning to end, we understand that getting out of bondage to sin, addiction to sin as we might call it today, getting out from a state of death under the wrath of God, it's

God who has to rescue us. It's deeply humbling. We realize that we can do nothing to save ourselves, that we have to have

God save us. And so right from the very get -go, it sets us in a proper perspective to God.

God is sovereign, is Lord, he's our maker, creator, we're his creatures.

And so this, for Fuller, would then be foundational to any sort of biblical spirituality.

The whole idea of knowing who God is. God is a sovereign, Lord, creator,

Savior, and then knowing who we are. That we are inherently, because of the fall, crooked, bent, dead in sin, etc.

And so Fuller would see this as utterly foundational to any sort of spirituality. And I think

I would, without a doubt, affirm that this perspective on spirituality is vital in our day.

Especially in our day, although Fuller would have wrestled with this to some degree as well, but in our day where our culture affirms the innate goodness of man, and that the problem with the human condition is nothing from within, but is found in a variety of other factors, be it environment, be it the political structures, be it economics, etc.

And Fuller would say, no, no, the problem is within. It's not simply that there is a social sin, but within my heart,

I'm crooked or dead in sin. And so this is where spirituality has to begin, with a due recognition of who is

God and who we are. And then obviously, if God is going to save us, how is that being done?

And there are two parts to that. One is the incarnation and the death and resurrection of the

Lord Jesus Christ, and his session in heaven, and ongoing advocacy of his people.

And so the Lord Jesus as Savior is critical, but also the gift of the

Spirit. And so there is in Fuller a Christ -centeredness, a cross -centeredness.

These are essential aspects of his spirituality, and also a focus on the necessity of the

Spirit enabling us to do works that please God. And without the new birth, there is no salvation, and the

Spirit is the one who brings about that new birth, based on a person's flying to Christ alone for salvation.

So Fuller's understanding of spirituality, he deals with those very, very big, basic issues, and I think those big, basic issues are essential for our own day.

Well, thank you so much, Pastor Costi, and I'm looking forward to our discussion on Friday, September 8th,

God willing. So let's keep in touch from now until then.

And you have also won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today,

The Armies of the Lamb, The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller, edited and introduced by Dr.

Michael A .G. Haken, published by Joshua Press. And this will be shipped to you, no charge to you or to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for their faithful support of Iron Trip and Zion Radio by shipping out all of our winners, their free

Bibles, books, and other items that they have won by submitting questions to our guests.

And guess what, Pastor Costi, because you're a first -time questioner, for lack of a better term, you are also receiving a new

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, and that will also be shipped out to you by our friends at cvbbs .com.

So thanks for listening and writing in the question, and I hope you keep listening regularly and keep submitting questions for our guests on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Now Dr. Haken, before I go on to another listener, it's interesting that you affirm what

Pastor Costi says about the proper view of the sovereignty of God and salvation held to by Andrew Fuller.

And yet he has critics, as you are aware. In fact, some would even accuse him of being an

Amaraldian, not that that's the worst thing in the world you could be. Amaraldian, meaning a person who believes in all of the so -called five points of Calvinism with the exception of limited atonement, believing in four of the five points.

But if you could address that accusation, is that an accurate accusation? Is he a hybrid of some kind between five -point

Calvinism and Amaraldianism, or what is the reason that people say that? Some people, I should say, say that.

A lot of that arises from a controversy that emerged in Fuller's own day.

In 1803 -1804, Fuller began to receive criticism from a very significant source, namely a friend named

Abraham Booth. Abraham Booth, unlike Fuller, had come from an Arminian background.

He had been converted among Arminian Methodists and then become Baptistic, and over the course of time become

Calvinistic Baptist. He had written a tremendous book called The Reign of Grace, which is still in print, and he probably, in Fuller's mind, was the leading living theological figure within the

Calvinistic Baptist in England. And Fuller had a good relationship with him, but in 1801,

Fuller reprinted the Gospel Worthy of All Acceptation, and in the section that dealt with particular redemption, and Fuller's enunciation of that,

Booth was concerned about a number of things that he saw there. And he was particularly concerned about Fuller's use of governmental language.

Fuller began to use a governmental model of the nature of the

Atonement, that Christ's death was efficacious because it affirmed the moral government of God over the universe, and showed sinners what

God would do to those who broke his law. And so the death of Christ becomes kind of an exemplary death, one in which we see the seriousness of sin, and would be a vehicle, then, to lead men and women to faith in Christ.

Fuller picked up some of that language from people called the New Divinity Men. These would be the followers of Jonathan Edwards, people like Samuel Hopkins, Stephen West, Joseph Bellamy, Jonathan Edwards Jr.,

all of them New England theologians. Fuller never abandoned penal substitution atonement, but he was concerned that some of the understanding of penal substitution atonement was wrong -headed.

For instance, that penal substitution atonement was really kind of some sort of commercial bargain, that Christ died for the exact number of sins of the elect, no more, and that therefore, because Christ has died for the exact number of my sins, and because sin cannot be punished twice,

I can therefore go to God and demand my right, quote -unquote, as a sinner coming to God, and one for whom

Christ has died, that he must give me salvation. But for Fuller, this was abhorrent. We are always supplicants.

It undermines the whole concept of mercy, and so Fuller tried to rethink certain elements of the spirituality of particular redemption, how it played out in the life of a sinner, and eventually, he argues that Christ was punished for sinners, but Christ's death for sinners was a death that, if God had elected to save all the world, would be sufficient, so sufficient for all efficacious in the elect, which is the argument of the

Synod of Doris. But Booth was coming at it probably from a perspective that was much more akin to, say,

John Owen, and was critical of Fuller, and believed that Fuller had given up penal substitutionary atonement and was on his way to becoming an

Arminian. That is not true, and Fuller met with Booth.

A number of Fuller's friends, like John Ryland Jr., wrote to Booth. Booth was an old man at the time, and that may have had some effect on his intransigency in recognizing that Fuller was not what he claimed him to be.

But once those charges were made by a man who had universal respect as a very profound theologian within the

Calvinistic Baptist community in England, the charges stuck down through the years. And there's always been a string of very strict

Baptists who would have hyper -Calvinist leanings, the gospel standard in England, who would definitely be hyper -Calvinist, founded by men like William Gadsby, who were very, very critical of Fuller.

I love Gadsby's hymnal, though. Sorry? I love Gadsby's hymnal, though. Yes, his hymnal is great.

He's recapturing the hymns of people like Joseph Hart, John Berridge, but he was deeply critical of Fuller, and couldn't stand

Fuller, to be honest. And that laid the foundations for a wrong thinking about Fuller's understanding of the cross.

So, yes, there have been those charges. I wrote a major article on Fuller's understanding of the cross, and I've gone back in recent years and reviewed it, and I would still stand by what

I said there, is that Fuller started to use governmental language. I don't think that was a good idea.

I don't think governmental language is supported by Scripture in the way that Fuller did. But he never gave up penal substitution in language, and he always came to believe that the particular redemption meant that Christ's death was sufficient for all, efficaciously elect.

And in that, I think he's right. But that goes all the way back to the

Sinner of Dorrit, possibly Calvin, depending on how you read Calvin. But it certainly is a legitimate understanding of the nature of particular redemption within the five -point

Calvinistic tradition. And so,

Fuller, I don't think departs from Calvinism at all. You know, there is a reverse situation, as you know, where there are critics, not critics,

I'm sorry, those who really revere many of our

Calvinistic heroes from history and yet impute Arminianism to them, not because they think that that is derogatory, but because they are

Arminian themselves, or believers in free will at the very least, non -Calvinist, many of them wouldn't identify themselves with the label

Arminian. And I know that my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, is a graduate of Bob Jones University, and I don't know what's going on there now in this regard, but haven't they, when you were there, and I know have over the years adopted some of our

Calvinistic heroes, but not been very open about the Calvinism of these heroes, such as Spurgeon and others.

Oh yeah, they like Spurgeon, but we were not allowed to discuss the Doctrines of Grace. Right, but I think that that has changed in recent years.

I'm not really sure. Well, I know that the current president is preaching at conferences alongside with very strictly

Reformed people. Well, I've run into a few of my classmates. Steve Pettit, I'm talking about, the new president.

Well, as you know, some of the conferences we've been to, I've run into some of my classmates, and they're ending up Reformed.

But that is true though, isn't it, Dr. Haken, that some people are shocked when they discover that some of these men like Fuller and Spurgeon and others were really thoroughly

Calvinistic, as our friend that we mentioned earlier, Tom Nettles, has beautifully documented in By His Grace and For His Glory.

Some of them intentionally, and some of them naively perpetrating the myth that these men were

Arminians. Yes, it really is amazing that obviously there is a admiration for some of our forebears who are

Calvinistic, and that by those who aren't Calvinistic, and they want to claim them as their own and therefore kind of downplay their

Calvinism. So it's really, in some ways, it's absolutely bizarre.

Men who have traditionally been understood as five -point Calvinists are now being told, well, they really didn't believe in particular redemption, and this needs to be qualified, that needs to be qualified.

And rather than simply admitting, okay, if you don't like Calvinism, fine, you can still admire somebody who came before you.

I mean, I have a significant degree of admiration for a man like Charles Wesley. I don't think he was a

Calvinist. He wouldn't have described himself as a Calvinist. I think he came actually very close to Calvinism in many respects.

But I think we have to deal fairly with historical figures. Yeah, like A .W. Tozer was not a

Calvinist, and yet many Calvinists love him and are honest about his being not in full -blown agreement with us.

Yeah, yeah. And so it's just a very, it's a disturbing methodology because it means, well, if they're fast and loose with this truth, what other things are they not telling us?

Yeah, it's especially disturbing when they are at war, some of them, within the

Southern Baptist Convention, for instance, and are vilifying Calvinists and acting as if the very cornerstones, the very foundations of their own organization, the

Southern Baptist Convention, was some kind of a non -Calvinistic, freewill -believing institution, rather than the red -blooded

Calvinist organization that it was founded as. Yep, yep, exactly. We're going to a break right now, and we will get to as many of our listeners with questions as we can.

And if you would like to join them, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back, God willing, right after these messages with Dr. Michael Haken and more of our discussion.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the

Pastors Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastors Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

Yes, that is the most, or those are the most unfortunate call letters for a

Christian radio station on the planet Earth, WLIE. But that is not in regard to the fact that there are liars on the station.

That's because of the Long Island Expressway that is right nearby the radio station there in Ronkonkoma, Long Island.

Welcome back to our program. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Dr. Michael Haken, and we are discussing

The Armies of the Lamb, The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller, his book by the great

Andrew Fuller, published by Joshua Press. And we will be returning to that discussion momentarily.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Haken about Andrew Fuller or about the doctrines of sovereign grace or Baptist history in general, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. And I assure you, I'm going to get to as many of you already waiting as possible, and hopefully we'll have time for even more listeners before we run out of time.

But before I go to our friends who are listening, I have some very important announcements to bring up regarding our listeners and special events that they are having, including my friend and sponsor,

Pastor Bruce Bennett. Pastor Bruce Bennett, who is the pastor of the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. And he's been a dear friend of mine for quite a number of years and supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And the Word of Truth Church are having a couple of special events. They are offering two free classes this summer on the

Book of Romans and an Old Testament survey. The class on Romans will meet on July 19th and July 26th from 7 to 9 p .m.

Eastern Time. And the Old Testament survey will meet the week of July 17th through the 21st, that's this week, from 7 to 9 p .m.

With the exception of, I believe it's today, with the exception of today, they meet 5 to 7 p .m.

on that class. So in order for you to attend, you'd have to leave right now to make it there.

Their address is 1055 Portion Road in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. The phone number to register is area code 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614.

And even though the Romans class has already started, they are accepting new students. And if you would like to investigate their website, the website of the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island is wotchurch .com. W -O -T, for Word of Truth, church .com.

wotchurch .com. And then another one of our sponsors that I am delighted to promote anything that they are doing is the

Fellowship Conference New England. And their next event is August 3rd through the 5th at the

Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. And speakers include Don Curran of HeartCry Missionary Society, which is the organization founded by Paul Washer.

My friend Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who is an author, and he is also the pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

Pastor Jesse Barrington, who is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, the sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, who has a radio station that airs

Iron Trump and Zion Radio every day in a pre -recorded form. And last but not least, Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who is the author of Reviving New England and Why We're Protestant.

He is the pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire. If you'd like to register for the

Fellowship Conference New England, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. That's fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

and you'll find out all the information that you need. And of course, we cannot forget our friends at the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, who sponsor this program. And they are having a special event where I will have an exhibitor's booth,

God willing. And that is the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology. This year on the theme for Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously referring to Satan from the classic hymn written by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress.

And the speakers at this conference include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, who we've been speaking about throughout this show,

Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant. If you would like to attend this conference, which is

November 17th through the 18th at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania, to register, go to alliancenet .org,

alliancenet .org, and then click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

Then we have the G3 Conference, which is returning to Atlanta, Georgia, January 17th through the 20th, on the theme,

Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. On the 17th, it is exclusively a

Spanish -speaking conference, and from the 18th through the 20th, they are having their English conference, featuring,

God willing, such speakers as Stephen Lawson, Bodie Balcombe, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Krueger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

If you would like to register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

And now, again, I have to do that very uncomfortable job of asking you for money.

I'm doing that because the advertisers who keep this program afloat have kept it on the air as long as it's been on the air.

Those advertisers have urged me to make public appeals for donations to further ensure that the program remains on the air.

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And I appreciate it more than the English language can possibly convey to you. So now we have returned to our guest,

Dr. Michael Haken, and our discussion of The Armies of the Lamb, The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller.

And we do have quite a number of people still waiting to have their questions asked.

And let's see, let me go to another first -time listener.

Or should I say first -time questioner? Because I don't know, he may have been listening for years and just never sent in a question.

So first -time listener. And that is, yeah, well, what else can I say? How else would you phrase that?

Well, he said questioner and then he went right back to listener. I just thought that was kind of, oh, okay. We have

Luke from Macon, Mississippi. And Luke says, thank you for your great show.

I have a question for Dr. Haken. I understand that Andrew Fuller was involved in some controversy concerning his view of the atonement.

We just addressed that. Specifically in his view of imputation of sins to Christ.

I believe that this was a topic of disagreement between him and Abraham Booth. Would you explain what the differences were?

Well, we kind of stole Luke's thunder there, unfortunately, Dr. Haken, but do you have anything to add to it?

Probably not, but I would be happy, as I said, I wrote a major article on this, and I'd be happy if the person sending in that email,

Luke, would want to, if he wants to see the article, I'd be happy to send it to him. I go into this in significant detail, and he could email me at mhaykin, h -a -y -k -i -n, at sbds .edu,

and I'd be very, very happy to send him a copy of the article. That's m -h -a -y -k -i -n, at s -b, for Southern Baptist, t -s, for Theological Seminary, dot edu.

That's mhaykin, h -a -y -k -i -n, at s -b -t -s, dot edu.

And Luke, well, you know, actually, did you cover in your specific explanation the area of the imputations of sins to Christ?

Did you cover that? No, I didn't. But if you want me to get into that,

I'm happy to do so. Sure, sure, we have plenty of time. Yeah, so again, the issue here was, was

Christ's death specifically for the exact number of the sins of the elect, and there were a number of hypo -Calvinists, and they generally were found in the hypo -Calvinist camp, although there were others like Booth, who seemed to lean that way, who argued that.

Fuller felt that that opened up the door to a kind of commercial understanding of the

Atonement, that the Atonement was understood to be quid pro quo, as it were.

You know, there are so many sins and so much grace, and that that seemed also to open the door to the sinner, therefore, going to God and saying, look,

Jesus has suffered once for my sins. You need to now give me salvation. And it undermined in Fuller's mind that sort of thinking that fleeing to Christ for salvation, going to God for salvation, is always a supplicant.

One is always a supplicant for mercy. And there is no sense that I deserve anything but justice and damnation.

And so, as Fuller kind of worked those things out, he came to the conviction, as Senator Dort did, that the

Christ's death, considered in itself, because of the infinite nature of the divinity that was yoked together with the humanity, that the

God -man who is Christ, in his death, if his death, if the

Father had wanted his death to cover all of the sins of humanity, million times over, it would have been sufficient for all.

But in the application of the work of Christ, God's purpose stands, which it is applied to the elect.

Well, thank you so much, Luke. I didn't even know there was a Macon, Mississippi. I've heard of Macon, Georgia. But it is a delight to have you join us in our listening audience.

And guess what? Not only have you won a free copy of The Armies of the Lamb, The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller by our guest,

Dr. Michael A .G. Haken, compliments of Joshua Press, who published it, and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will be shipping it to you.

You've also won a new New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the

NASB, since you are a first -time questioner. So please make sure we have your full mailing address in Macon, Mississippi.

I'll only have your city and state, so your full name and full mailing address. We will have

CVBBS .com ship those two items out to you as soon as possible.

It is such a pleasure to hear from you for the first time, and we hope we keep hearing from you in the future.

Luke, God bless you. We have Daniel in San Jose, California.

I have a few questions for Brother Haken. What was the primary focus of Andrew Fuller that led him to be such a powerful and spiritual writer of gospel truth?

I'll start with that one. Well, I think it was the fact that he learned the truth at the fountainhead of Scripture, and he was in his own struggles after his conversion.

And then once he was appointed pastor, he had very few people to turn to.

There was an older man in the congregation who helped him for maybe a year or so before his death.

But Fuller, in many respects, in those early days of struggle, theologically was on his own.

He would eventually have a circle of friends, men like John Ryland, Jr., John Sutcliffe, William Carey, Samuel Pierce, and a man who was a later kind of mentor,

Robert Hall, Sr. But Fuller learned a very, very important truth in those kind of struggles in those early days of his life, which is that God has given us, in His Word, a sufficient foundation, not only for our theology, but also for our spirituality and our walk with God.

And so I think that's something that makes Fuller, gives

Fuller a strength in his theology, is that he is deeply reliant upon the

Scriptures. And then also, Fuller was converted during those great 18th century awakenings.

And in many respects, the strength of our contemporary evangelicalism goes back to probably three things.

One is the great 18th century awakenings, and the emphasis on the outpouring of the Spirit, and the resulting missions that flowed out from it.

The second would be the Puritan movement, which emphasized that the Spirit's work is always yoked to the

Word. And then the third would be Reformation understanding of salvation by grace alone, and by faith alone, and through Christ alone.

And Fuller has all of that. And he knew awakening, he knew revival, he was deeply schooled.

Eventually, he reads a lot of Edwards, but he's grounded solidly in the Scriptures. So there's a number of areas in which he is enormously helpful for us.

Great. And we have another question by Daniel. For someone like me who has never read

Andrew Fuller, but is eager to, which of his works, along with the book under review during this interview, would be a great book as an introduction to Fuller?

Well, I think probably the best place to begin to get a kind of feel for Fuller is his

Memoirs of Samuel Pierce, which we've just done the critical edition that's appeared with Walter de

Correta. But there is also an edition available in a paperback version from Solid Ground Christian Books, Michael Gaydosh's ministry.

Yes, he is my very first pastor as a born -again Christian. Very good. So that would be probably the first place

I would begin. And then the second place is that he wrote a number of circular letters that addressed a variety of things, from things like revival all the way over to taking care of widows in our churches.

And there's probably about a dozen of these, and they can be found in volume three of the standard edition of his works, which was the standard up until we hope that de

Correta will become. That standard edition is a three -volume set reprinted by Sprinkle Publications in Virginia.

And it's an 1845 edition that was originally put out by the American Baptist Sunday School Society in Philadelphia.

And volume three has these circular letters. And then if you really want to get into his rich theology,

The Gospel Worthy of All Acceptation, published first in 1785, reprinted into 1801.

The 1801 version that is available, and we hope to change that when we do the critical edition, and we'll actually do the 1785 and the 1801 together.

But the 1801 is the version that's available. And then the other one will be Scriptures on Sandemanianism, S -A -N -D -E -M -A -N -I -A -N -I -S -M,

Sandemanianism. And it's basically the very wrong thinking of that salvation is by intellectual commitment.

Easy believism is what we would call it today. And Fuller was the theologian in the 18th century, early 19th century, who theologically destroyed it.

That's the opinion of Martin Lloyd Jones, who gave a paper on Fuller and Sandemanianism in the 1960s.

And it's a little heard of era today, but it is enormously influential.

It was foundational to Campbellism, this era, and so it's important to us that Fuller responded to that.

And his response to that is tremendous, absolutely tremendous. That's probably the four things.

His circular letters, his memoirs appears, his gospel worthy of all acceptation, and then his

Scriptures on Sandemanianism. Now that unique error, when you bring up easy believism, many people think of people who go forward on altar call invitations and then live like Satan the rest of their lives and are convinced that they're saved.

But isn't there another branch of that that would not include giving people a license to live libertine lives, but still has a view of the faith that justifies as purely mental assent?

And I'm thinking some of those that are adherents, and I know I'm probably going to get some nasty emails or phone calls or letters, but some of the adherents to Gordon Clark's theology, wouldn't would that be somewhere in that orb, too?

I think so, but I say that very tentatively because, and you probably know better than me,

I really don't know Gordon Clark's work at all. I've read a couple of things over the years, and I think from what

I've read in some of its secondary literature is that he probably falls into that category. But you're right, it's basically, it believes that in asserting that mental assent to the gospel without recourse and without any consideration of what is going on with our affections and what is going on in our wills is a way of safeguarding justification by faith alone.

But I think, bottom line, it fails to understand what faith is. That genuine faith, surely it involves a decision of the will to embrace

Christ, and surely that decision, there is a love for the Lord Jesus. And this is the way

Fuller argues, that the way that the Sanemonians had come to define faith was indistinguishable from the faith of devils.

They believe, but they have no love for the Lord Jesus and no desire to do His will. The opposite of saving faith is not a lack of mental assent, it is an aversion to the gospel that issues in disobedience.

Now you brought up Campbellism, and today in the 21st century that is a broad scope of people, not necessarily that Campbellism is, but those congregations that would consider

Campbell one of their forefathers, if you will. The Campbellite movement would be a broad spectrum today.

I know people who are within that movement that are very theologically sound, albeit most of them being

Arminian. But it surprises me that you would bring that up, because the more severe members of that movement who would be definitely towards the heretical end of that movement seem to be more

Pelagian and works righteousness rather than easy believism advocates. Yes, that's the way it's developed, but in its early days

Sandeman had a significant influence on Alexander Campbell.

Campbell's understanding of faith as intellectual assent was deeply shaped by his reading of Sandemanian literature.

Mm -hmm. And believe it or not, I even know a couple of Church of Christ ministers who are

Calvinistic, believe it or not. They do exist. Yeah, Campbellism today, as you say, is a very broad spectrum, and where a person stands today who's within that stream doesn't necessarily indicate what the fountainhead of that stream looked like.

Right. And last but not least, Daniel in San Jose, California says, let's see, does there seem to be a decline in spirituality among Christians today compared to Fuller and other

Christians of his day? Well, that's obvious, isn't it? Is there a question?

Well, he says, does there seem to be a decline in spirituality amongst Christians today compared to Fuller and other

Christians of his day? Yes, I think, you know, Fuller would say that he would sometimes compare some of the spirituality that he saw in some of the

Hyper -Calvinist congregations to the Puritans, and would say things like, you know, the

Puritans made a business of their religion, and it wasn't a thing by and by that, you know, they believed on God, and then they tacked to the idea of perseverance and somehow hoped to make it to heaven, and they would ask the question, what must

I do for God? You know, what's the bare minimum? But rather what, Fuller would say the Puritans would ask the question, what can

I do for God? And they made a business of living for God out of all their life.

And I think the same kind of critique can be made of early 21st century evangelicalism.

In so many spheres, it's indistinguishable from the world. And the zeal that gripped men like Fuller that led them to really, the cost of their lives led them to engage in global mission, and all of the challenges that that had in their day, you know, the length of time it would take them to get to the mission field, the lack of medical assistance they would have when out there, the fact that so many died out there.

When William Carey went to the mission field, he never came back. And Fuller and his close friends,

Ryland and Samuel Pierce and John Sutcliffe, went with Carey to London, and they asked a man named

William Button, who was a minister in London, if they could use his church to celebrate the Lord's Supper. Very unusual.

Fuller was very convinced that the supper is a local church ordinance. But on this occasion, he felt we will never see this man,

William Carey, ever again in the flesh. And we feel together that we are one heart and one soul in the celebration of that which makes us one, namely the death of the

Lord Jesus. And I think the other thing that is so attractive about Fuller is the friendship that he was able to inculcate in men.

When William Carey heard of his death in 1816, the late 1815, well, probably would have been 1816, because it took six months for the letter to get to Carey in India, and Fuller died in May of 1815, when the first thing

Carey said was, I loved him. And I just think that one of the things

I love about Fuller and this whole group of men is they're able to combine, there's just a rich, rich theology.

I don't necessarily think that Calvinism has gotten everything right, but it's the best option available to us theologically.

You know, understanding the scriptures. But these men had that, but they also had that rich sense that pervades the

New Testament congregations. They were one heart and one soul. Samuel Pierce sent his copy of the

Greek New Testament to Carey, and what he put in the beginning of it was in Greek, that little phrase from Acts 4, one heart and one soul.

And these men, they built ties of friendship, which we desperately need today. We need

Biblical truth, so our congregations also have to be places in which there is this love for one another that will go to the point of giving our lives for each other.

And these men had that, by God's grace. It wasn't a creation of inner virtue, it was the

Spirit of God acting remarkably in their midst. And that's why I think the life of Pierce is so important.

You see that. Fuller said that what was the mark of Pierce's life was holy love, and we need that.

Amen. And Daniel from San Jose, California concludes his email,

I am a student at Boyce College, and Lord willing, plan on attending Southern Seminary.

It would be a great blessing to sit under your teaching there at the seminary. Thank you, brothers, for your ministries.

Thank you. And Daniel, guess what? If you give me your full mailing address in San Jose, California, you have also won a free copy of The Armies of the

Lamb, The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller by our guest, Dr. Michael A .G. Haken, compliments of Joshua Press, and that will be shipped to you, compliments of our friends at cvbbs .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. And so keep your eye open in the mail for a package with cvbbs .com

and the return address of the shipping label. And thank you again for submitting a question, an excellent series of questions to our program.

We're going to go to a break right now. And Dr. Haken, I emailed you or forwarded you an email from our listener,

Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania. I emailed it to you because she has two questions, and I thought that you might want to mill them over while we are on our final break.

I'll read the first one right now on the air, and you can answer both of them later when we return.

It appears that Andrew Fuller was quite an active debater. He spent a great deal of time in defense of the governmental theory of atonement against hyper -Calvinism.

Can you explain what is the governmental theory of atonement in more modern terms? Okay, we already did address that, but perhaps you could address the debating aspect as well, which

I don't know if you actually discussed that aspect of her question. And, of course, she has another question as well.

And anybody else who wants to join us, I would do it now before we run out of time. Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzin. If you've just joined us, this is the final half hour of the program with Dr.

Michael Haken, and we have been discussing his book, The Armies of the Lamb, The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller, published by Joshua Press.

If you'd like to join us on the air, do it quickly. If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnzin at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And we have, as I read before the break,

Dr. Haken, the first of two questions by Jenny from Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, that says, it appears that Andrew Fuller was a quite an active debater.

He spent a great deal of time in defense of the governmental theory of atonement against hyper -Calvinism. Can you explain what is the governmental theory of atonement in a more modern terms?

And we already addressed a lot of that before Jenny, well, before I read Jenny's question.

She may have sent that in before you already addressed that.

But if you could discuss something in that question that we haven't focused on for perhaps like his debating and so on.

Yes, I mean, Fuller was very gifted as an apologist. And so he, he not only debated

Sanamanianism, hyper -Calvinism that we've looked at, he also had a major debate with Arminianism, wrote a book against Arminianism, antinomianism.

And then probably his some of his greatest work was a rebuttal of deism, which is very common in the 18th century, which argued for there being one

God who's revealed in nature, nature alone. And the most prominent figure that he wrote against, and that is

Thomas Paine, a key figure. And then the other area that he wrote against was

Sassinianism, named after a man named Fausto Sassini or Sassinus. And Sassinianism was basically

Unitarianism, argued that the scriptures were against Trinitarianism, and Fuller defended the

Trinity against the Sassinian views. Fuller is an important apologist, but he did more than apologetics, and that's why the sort of things that I emphasized, his circular there, his life of Samuel Pierce, indicate some of the range of his writings.

Governmental Theory of the Atonement, I touched on earlier, it basically argues that Christ's death is an example of how

God will deal with evil, and he will brook no rebellion, and Christ dies in the place of rebels, as an example of God's moral government.

So there's a second question. Yeah, she says, how important was his self -published sermon called

The Nature and Importance of Walking by Faith? Yeah, that's a very important sermon.

He preached that in 1784, and it was to an association of Baptist ministers and churches.

The association of which his church belonged was the Northamptonshire Association, and every year, like other

Baptist associations in Britain, they had an annual gathering. For about three days, they'd be preaching, praying together, fellowship together, and the ministers would always draft a letter, a circular letter, and a number of them would preach, and Paul was asked to preach on that occasion, and on his way to the meeting, which was held in the spring of 1784, his horse, he's riding his horse, and he came across an area of the road that was flooded, probably some of the winter thawing of the winter snows, and the roads in Britain during the 18th century were not the best, and he starts to urge his horse through the water, little knowing that it was very deep, and by the time that he's, the water was up to the saddle.

That's how deep it was. Wow. Turning back, and there was a bystander sitting on a hill watching the whole thing, and when he noticed his puller was about to turn around, he yelled out to Fuller, go on, sir, it's safe.

And so Fuller changed his topic to, we walk by faith, and not by sin.

And so he preached this sermon, The Nature and Importance of Walking by Faith, emphasized that the

Christian life begins in faith, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, death for our sins, but it is a walk of faith, and emphasizes things like that walk involves self -denial.

Self -denial is one of the initial laws of Christ's kingdom, he says, and such a walk, he emphasizes, brings great glory to God.

Let the glory of God lie near our hearts. Let it be dearer to us than our dearest delights. Here consists the criterion of true love to Him.

Let us, after the noble example of Joshua and Caleb, follow the Lord fully. And that following is by faith.

And it's very interesting, as a result of that preaching, and that particular association, the

Baptists began to pray for revival. It's known as the Prayer Call of 1784, and it will issue in remarkable awakening, one of the fruit of which is the

Baptist Missionary Society and the globalization of mission. So it's a very, very important sermon.

Well, thank you so much, Jenny, from Ben Salem, Pennsylvania. You have also won

The Armies of the Lamb, The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller by our guest, Dr. Michael A .G.

Hakin, who was the editor and wrote the introduction, and it is published by Joshua Press.

And please make sure we have your full mailing address so we can have that shipped out to you by cvbbs .com.

Thanks a lot, Jenny. And we have Joe in Slovenia. Joe asks,

Please ask Dr. Hakin about Fuller Seminary in California. Is it named after Andrew Fuller?

I have a couple of questions of my own, Dr. Hakin. Did he also own a brush company, a soap company? Fuller Brush Company nor Fuller Seminary have anything to do with Andrew Fuller.

Now, I know that it is liberal today. In fact, it was even liberal when Dr. James R.

White, our mutual friend, went there in the 1980s or earlier. In fact, it might have been earlier because I think

James White went to college, entered into college when he was about seven years old. But it was liberal then, and I think it's even more liberal now.

But was it ever a biblically sound college? Yeah, it was founded in the late 40s, and it was founded to be basically the evangelical answer to places like Princeton, which had gone liberal in the 20s.

How ironic. And within 15 to 20 years, it was in problems.

And part of the problem with this, they brought together a cluster of men.

They were all brilliant in their own fields, but they couldn't work together. They were all prima donnas.

And that's part of the problem. There was theological downgrade, the refusal to embrace inerrancy, and the departure of a number of sound men who,

Wilbur Smith, for example, they went and founded Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, which has fared very well.

But in the early years, the 50s, it would have been fine. But there's an event,

I forget which year it is, it might be 61. It's called Black Friday, when a majority of the faculty refused to subscribe to a document, a confession that involved the commitment to inerrancy of Scripture.

And the handwriting at that point is on the wall. So it was founded by Charles Fuller, not

Andrew Fuller? Yes. I mean, Fuller is not a common surname, but it's not an uncommon one either.

And as far as I know, there's no connection at all between them. And Joe in Slovenia also says, please ask

Dr. Haken to access the cooperative program, in light of his understanding of Andrew Fuller's emphasis on local church responsibility and missions.

Some have said that the cooperative program, while having been a wonderful force in the funding of missions and theological education, has also heavily contributed to theological and missiological ambiguity and confusion.

Would Southern Baptist Seminary do well to reform the nature of the cooperative program funding to strongly encourage and facilitate direct involvement of the local churches in the oversight of IMB missionaries' education and ministry?

Well, the cooperative program, I mean, is part of the entire structure of the SBC, and part of that structure involves the appointment of the trustees.

And so the local churches appoint the trustees for the Board of Trustees at Southern, as well as the other seminaries.

And so the local churches do have a direct, you know, role in the control of the seminaries.

I'm not sure exactly how it works in terms of the areas of home and for missions, but the cooperative program has, when it's worked well, it's been brilliant.

And there are two ways of doing missions. One is a local church -based, in which one local church has the funding to support a missionary or a group of churches, and then the other is to form a society of people who financially then support missions.

And in the early days of the BMS, the Baptist Missionary Society, they did not have enough financial support from enough churches, and so they basically formed as a society of committed individuals.

And it's only in the course of the history of missions in the 19th century that Baptists begin to emphasize, as the

SBC has done historically, that it should be churches sending missionaries and churches working together.

Most churches, I mean, the average church in the SBC is about 100 to 150 people, and there's no way financially it can support, you know, one missionary by itself completely, given the cost of missionaries, and therefore it's important that associations of churches be supportive of missions and theological education.

And the cooperative program, when it's worked, has done that really well. And obviously a lot depends on the health, the theological health of the churches.

And if the churches are theologically robust, biblical, then you'll get men who they send out, men and women who they send out, are the same.

During the period of time when they're not so, which was certainly a factor in the SBC, you know, in the 50s through the 90s, the early 90s, then, you know, before the success of the conservative resurgence, then you're going to have a weakness in missions.

But the SBC cooperative program has been a tremendous boon, and it's a great blessing to Southern, because it enables us to offer theological education at a vastly diminished financial rate to students.

To do a PhD at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School is going to cost you upwards of $90 ,000.

That's just fees. Wow. At Southern, it's around $28 ,000 over five years, which is incredible.

Oh, yeah. I can remember when I went to college in the 1980s, it was $40 a credit.

Well, thank you so much, Joe, in Slovenia, and thank you for giving us an American address where your daughter lives in Georgia, and we are going to be shipping out to you the

Armies of the Lamb, the spirituality of Andrew Fuller, compliments of Joshua Press, and compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

who are actually the ones shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to us. We have

Gordie in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, in your book on Andrew Fuller, Life and Legacy, you talk about Fuller's unceasing commitment to the ministries he was involved in, which led to some serious health issues that would hound him until his death.

What advice would you give to those in full -time ministry as far as maintaining a healthy balance between work, recreation, and rest?

Wow, that's an excellent question. It is a very good question, and I don't think Fuller always got that balance right.

You know, on one occasion, his wife looked at him, you know, because he was so overworked, and, you know, pled with him to take time for rest, and he said, my rest is changing my work.

You know, so instead of focusing maybe on preaching, preparing sermons, he was writing letters for the

Baptist Mystery Society. And I don't think he got that balance right, and he died very young, you know, comparatively, in his 60s, early 60s.

I think it is critical for ministers to find that balance, and among those who embrace

Reformed theology, it's amazing that we are committed to, you know, the

Lord's Day as a day of rest, but the Lord's Day is, you know, a very busy day for ministers, and if they're not careful, they can find their entire week easily a round of activity without resting.

And for everybody, it's different. For some, it might be, you know, sports.

For others, maybe cultural activities, but there has to be that finding that place of balance.

And I think what's very helpful here are congregations. Congregations have to help their ministers find a place where they can have relaxation and find the balance of rest and activity.

I mean, Fuller's generation are typical evangelicals. They are activists.

They're busy doing things for the sake of the kingdom, but we need to relax also because it enables us then, when we're involved in activity, to give more energy and preserves us in the long haul.

Amen. Well, thank you, Gordy, for your excellent question, and since you live about 10 minutes away from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, why don't you save them some postage and head over there and pick up your free copy of The Armies of the

Lamb, The Spirituality of Andrew Fuller by our guest, Michael A .G. Hagen. And if you would like them to mail it to you, let me know.

Either way, otherwise it will just be there waiting for you to pick up since you're so close. Something that I wanted to make sure we addressed before we ran out of time, as our co -host here today,

Reverend Buzz Taylor, was mentioning before, when he went to college, there was a distortion of some major figures from church history where students were given a misleading understanding of what those great men actually taught and believed in and lived for.

And don't you think that is very dangerous, and it's a very serious sin, actually, because you have people who are gleaning and growing much in the faith from some of these writings and heroes of the faith, and then if they're being misled that those figures believed other things that are not true, that are not biblical, that's a serious sin.

You're really bearing false witness, aren't you, when you present characters, figures from the past, heroes from the past, and then tell people that they believe something that they never believed or stood for?

Yeah, it is. Yeah, and I agree fully with you. And as I say, playing fast and loose that way with the theological convictions of our forebears, you know, if that's the way you deal with it, with people who are no longer able to respond,

I mean, what do you do with theological opponents today or those who disagree with you today, or how do you deal with, you know, what

Scripture says about issues? Do you give the full truth? Yeah, it's very disturbing that, you know, somebody could read

Spurgeon and say, hey, you know, he did not believe that regeneration preceded faith.

I mean, I've heard somebody argue that Fuller believed, sorry, Spurgeon believed that faith preceded regeneration.

I mean, it's bonkers. It's absolutely bonkers. You read Spurgeon, and it's quite obvious that he's part of that Calvinist dream, which believes that without regeneration, there can be no living faith.

And not that faith produces the experience of being born again. And I just, yeah, and then you find out that the person arguing that, well, he believed the same thing, and so he's basically twisting

Spurgeon's words to support his own convictions. You know, the

Bonners, you know, we're getting a bit afield here, obviously, but Horatius Bonner and Andrew Bonner, I think the world is their witness in so many ways, and a number of years ago, when we celebrated the 200th anniversary of their birth,

I was asked to give a number of lectures on them in different contexts. I mean, one that you come across is that both of them were committed to premillennial theology.

I'm not a premillennialist, but I'm not going to try to make them out like they were all male.

You know, they may have sounded like they're premill, but really in their hearts they were all male. No, no, they were committed premillennialists.

I don't agree with that, but that doesn't affect that in other areas. I can learn from them deeply and appreciate them in their amillennialism.

They were sincere. They believed the scripture supported them. I want to understand why they adopted that. You mean in their premillennialism, you mean?

I'm sorry? In their premillennialism, you mean? Yes. What did I say? Amillennialism.

All right. Yeah, but you have to be fair with those who come before us, and likewise with those with whom we disagree.

When we disagree with a theological position, when we're disagreeing with it, you should always find the best representative of that position and show why you don't agree with it theologically.

You don't find the worst representative. Well, it's kind of interesting that two men that I mentioned during this interview who disagree with each other on certain things, such as the hyper -Calvinism of John Gill, my guest

Michael Haken, and Tom Nettles. Tom Nettles wrote the foreword to this book we've been addressing, The Armies of the

Lamb, so we can still have fellowship and great love and cooperation with those whom we have disagreement, and we're not going to be in lockstep until we're in glory for eternity.

Yep. I mean, Tom and I, I mean, I think the world of Tom, and he is one of the most brilliant Church historians

I have ever met. Yes, he is. And I was always, when he was on full -time faculty and we would have, we had a thing called the

PhD colloquium, where all the PhD students and all the Church history, in Church history, and all the

Church history professors would spend an hour and a half together going over various issues every week, and Dr.

Nettles is no longer a part of that because he's not full -time at Southern anymore, he's retired. He still teaches for us, but not full -time, and when he was full -time, it was amazing to me how he knew the entire range of Church history.

I mean, I focused on certain areas, and there's just so much, and his counsel, his interpretation was, there was such depth of wisdom, and, but in certain areas, he and I disagreed.

And we have to be able to do that as brothers. Amen. I think

Fuller, again, illustrates this. I mean, Fuller was closed membership, that is, you had to be a baptized believer to be a member of his

Church, and closed communion, you had to be a baptized believer by immersion to partake of the

Supper in his Church. His closest friend was John Ryland, who was open communion, if you were a believer, you could partake of the table in his

Church, and also open membership. It's kind of like an evangelical free church.

Yeah, and Fuller, Ryland had a man named Trender, who was one of his deacons.

He was a deacon for six years before he got baptized as a believer. Fuller would never have tolerated that for a minute, but they were the closest of friends.

Well, we're out of time, and the website for Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is sbts .edu,

sbts .edu. The website for the

Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies is andrewfullercenter .org,

andrewfullercenter .org. The website for Joshua Press is joshuapress .com,

joshuapress .com. And again, any other contact information, Dr. Haken, that you care to share?

Oh, I think that's great. Thank you. All right, if you could hold on, I want to schedule you for another interview, if you don't mind holding on for a couple of minutes.

Well, I will be happy to do that. Thank you so much for today. Hey, thank you, and I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater