Should We Pray for Derek Webb?

The Bible’s Warning Against Praying Against God’s Will

Warning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences. These audiences may include but are not limited to, professing Christians who never read their Bible, sissies, sodomites, men with man buns, those who approve of men with man buns, man bun enablers, white knights for men with man buns, homemakers who have finished Netflix but don't know how to meal plan, and people who refer to their pets as fur babies.

Viewer discretion is advised.

People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio. The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone, and any who reject Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin, and the wrath of Almighty God is hanging over our heads. They will hear his words, they will not answer.

Derek Webb as an Example of Apostasy

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we're joined by Pastor Conley Owens as we answer the age-old question, should we pray for Derek Webb?

Now, before we get into the discussion, the meat of this episode, I guess first I just want to say, welcome back, Conley. This is like episode four or five for you, so you might as well, five. So, you know, we're getting to the point, man, we probably just need to have like your own dedicated part in the podcast.

Yeah, we got to hire you on, man. It's free. At least it's like a contract worker or something, man. We got to do something for you. But it's good to have you back. It's good to see you again.

Thanks, good to be here.

So, you know, like we said, the title question for today is, should we pray for Derek Webb? Now, I'm going to confess to you guys that I actually, you know, as a younger guy, I don't know much about Derek Webb.

So, I'm going to defer over to Conley and let Conley explain a little bit about why we're even mentioning Derek Webb in this episode.

Can I defer over to Tim and have him explain?

Who wants to be the oldest guy here right now?

So, I guess the context here is I never really was that into music. So, I don't know a whole lot. But Derek Webb was the guy who was part of Cademan's Call. I remember some song that I had on some, you know, worship music album I used to listen to way back in 2003 or something like that.

And so, I was like, I'm going to go with Derek Webb. And so, I was like, later on, and I wasn't really paying attention to any of this. So, this only became, I only became aware of a lot of this very recently.

But he left the faith at some point in the early 2010s, I suppose. And now he's started making, quote unquote, Christian music again, or at least it's music about Christianity, but he's not making it as a Christian.

He's making it as one who has left the faith about Christianity. And anyway, recently, I came across a Facebook post that had a picture of him in a dress and said, pray for Derek Webb. And I responded that we shouldn't pray for Derek Webb.

And so, yeah, I'd like to get into that today, because I think Bible actually does give us pretty clear guidelines on who we should pray for, and who we shouldn't pray for, and how we should pray for each person.

So, I don't think that we can just broadly say that we should pray for each and every person the same way.

Why Prayer Must Follow God’s Prescriptive Will

Yeah. So, right now, Derek Webb is kind of wrestling with this category of an ex-Christian. So, I think it's safe to put him in the category of an apostate. But what did you have, Harrison?

I was just going to say, you know, as someone who is just, like, I don't know anything about this guy, all I have is I watched the, I guess this is one of his most recent videos, the one that you're talking about, Conley, where he's, number one, he's singing the song with someone who's named Flamie Grant.

And it's the person Flamie Grant is a man in drag. And then, well, they're both in drag. They're both in drag. Derek Webb is in drag as well with blue hair and, you know, blue eye shadow and these ridiculously large eyelashes.

It's pretty bad. I'm definitely, I'm putting this the thumbnail. So, if I had a good way to show the video right now, we would be playing the video because this is just, I mean, it's utterly astounding, honestly.

So, it's very disturbing to look at, you know. And I think some of the lyrics, the lyrics were pretty blatantly, you know, like anti-Bible, you know, where basically it's the same tired, you know, hey, if the church doesn't celebrate you for who you are, then the church is wrong.

And, you know, you're beautiful. And it's like, I'm looking at Derek Webb in drag and he's anything but beautiful.

You're not persuaded, huh?

I'm not persuaded at all, you know. And I guess, you know, hey, look, if you're a murderer and the church doesn't celebrate you, then I guess the church is wrong there too, you know. And if you're a thief and the church isn't celebrating you, then the church is wrong there too.

I mean, the church just needs to celebrate everyone. That's what Jesus would have done, apparently, according to Derek Webb.

Jesus wanted us to be true to ourself, so.

Yeah, he wanted us to follow our hearts and, you know, forget the fact that your heart is evil above all things, you know, just ignore that tiny little detail and you're golden, I guess.

Well, I guess, Conley, like the broader question we're asking, you know, we're asking, should you pray for Derek Webb is the question, should you pray for an apostate? So, what do you think, Conley? Why don't you tell us first what an apostate is, because maybe everyone doesn't know what that word is.

So, tell us what an apostate is and tell us why we shouldn't be praying for them.

Sure. Maybe I can say even before that, you know, part of this, you know, a lot of these, a lot of the titles of these episodes are for their shock value, right? Because it sounds like, it might sound like I'm saying that, you know, someone's sin is bad enough.

Therefore, we shouldn't pray for them because that sin is bad enough. Not exactly. I'm not, I'm not saying that there aren't people who God can radically save from the great sins or that he ever doesn't acknowledge repentance.

Rather, he's revealed in his word something special about apostates. And an apostate is, that word can be used in different senses, but the primary sense is someone who leaves the faith completely, having been part of it, and then renounced it, saying they, you know, don't believe its core tenets anymore.

Now, this is, this is different than another sense, which some people use the word apostate, where it's someone who has left the practice of the faith, but not the belief of the faith. So, for example, you might see the word apostate used to describe someone who has fallen into great sin or something like that.

But I'm, I'm using it in that first sense, someone who has rejected the tenets of the faith. And so, the Bible, yeah, the Bible talks about this on a number of occasions, and I guess we could, I don't know if we want to get into all those right now, because man, I could just talk for a long time.

But basically, God has revealed that this sin, there is no turning back from it. There is no repentance granted to the one who has apostatized, and therefore, if we were to pray according to God's will, to pray contrary to that revealed will, that there is no repentance for one who has apostatized would be to pray against his will, and very simply, not a prayer that would be answered.

Fair enough. So, I mean, I think you've said a lot of things there in terms of, like, basically, you've spelled out this responsibility to actually pray according to God's will. And I don't know that everyone intuitively thinks that way about prayer in general, like, as if the prayer has guardrails on it or any responsibilities.

I mean, in fact, I mean, most of the time when I'm getting in trouble as it relates to the topic of prayer, it's normally related to the subject of mentioning that there's any responsibility that a Christian has to pray in any specific way at all.

So maybe you could comment on that and, you know, make your case as to why we're supposed to actually pray in specific ways. I mean, isn't it fine—I guess the question I would ask along those lines was, like, isn't it fine just to pray for anything?

Like, why can't we just pray for.

Anything and let God figure it out, you know? Right. Yeah, it is something that a lot of people don't get. I remember talking to one person who said, you know, I know the Bible says that not everyone will be saved, but isn't it good to hope that everyone could be saved or to pray that, you know, that everyone would be saved?

Right. And yeah, his idea seemed to be that this is a better outcome than the one that God has determined, and therefore I'm going to pray for that thing even though God has determined otherwise. Yeah, it's—no, we are never to pray against God's will.

We're never to think that our will is better than God's will. And so just like Jesus did, not your will, but mine. We're to pray according to God's will. Yeah, I guess that's kind of an.

Interesting thought because, you know, I think most Christians probably think the same way that that person, you know, whoever it is that you're talking about in terms of, like, hey, I'm just—I know not everyone is going to be saved, but I want to hope, you know, that everyone will be saved or at least, like, you know, most of them will be saved or something along those lines.

And I don't necessarily imagine that those people are thinking that, you know, coming from a place of, like, hey, I know better than God here. They're not—I don't think they're, like, probably consciously thinking I know better than God, but then the reality is if God has said, you know, not everyone will be saved—and I mean, just go read Romans 9 and what it says there about, you know, how God is determining who He's choosing to redeem and who He's not choosing to redeem.

Whether you're consciously thinking it or not, it does seem like what you're hoping for is essentially saying, like, hey, I am more merciful than God because I want everyone to be saved and God doesn't want everyone to be saved, right?

That's what you're getting at, basically.

You're asking Him, and you're kind of asking Him to be more merciful than He's told, like, revealed Himself to be, essentially.

Right, and then at that point, you're basically—you're also, at the same time, asking God to not be perfectly just as well, right?

Yeah, you're introducing some new standard of goodness that you're asking God to conform to, not recognizing that He is the standard of goodness. And yeah, just to point people to some scriptures on this, James 4, 3 says, you ask and you do not receive because you ask amiss that you may spend it on your pleasures.

So, yeah, if we ask just what pleases us rather than what pleases God, we won't receive it. And that's what you see throughout Scripture, is that David, he asks things that he desires, but he makes sure that they are in line with God's desires, where he says, in order that your mercy may be known, in order that your glory may be seen, so that I can praise you.

You know, he has ways of tying this in to what God has revealed about Himself, that He desires to show these things to man. But you see later on in—I guess not necessarily later on, because it's not the same book, but 1 John 5, 14 says, and this is the confidence that we have toward Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.

And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the request that we have asked of Him. So, there's an assurance that as we ask according to God's will, because God does all that is His will, and His will is good, if we are asking for good things, they are actually— there is a 100 assurance if we happen to know God's will in a matter.

For example, if we pray for the return of Christ, we know that He will answer that prayer. There are things where we're feeling out God's will, and we don't know for certain because we're fallible beings.

But in as much as we are praying in line with God's will, we can be that assured that we will get the answer that we're anticipating.

I think it's just so—I mean, that really is such an important concept that I think most people don't realize about prayer in general. I mean, before we dive into more of the reasons why you're going to tell us it's wrong to pray for apostates.

But I think it's such an important part of prayer in general that most people— I think most people are just kind of treating prayer like they're blindfolded and they're throwing darts at a dartboard or something and hope they stick.

Instead of just—instead of thinking about, like, what is God's will and how can I pray what I know His will to be? And so, people have—I mean, people obviously have that kind of concept to some limited degree as it relates to, like, I shouldn't ask God to let me sin or something like that, right?

So, I think most people would—like, if you're praying for something that's explicitly condemned in the Bible as, like, a sin that you shouldn't do, I think most people would maybe have some sort of break at that point.

But then, you know, just related to the concept of praying towards God's will in general, you do have to kind of know what His will is for the world and try to align your will towards that will. And, you know, there might be a lot of things that are just purely neutral, but, you know, trying to think, well, what—you know, how do I, like, align this request to God's priorities and God's values?

And it might be that there's a lot of things that you're asking for that have nothing to do with any of His priorities and values at all.

So, okay, I have a question along the lines of this, maybe to help some people think through this issue, and we'll just use my life as the lab work on this. So, recently, I found an auction for some guns that I want to buy.

And so, I put in some bids for them, and then I remember thinking to myself, I was driving home, and I was thinking, I wonder if I should pray to God and ask Him to give me those guns that I put in bids for, right?

And then, you know, I started thinking about it, and I was like, man, that really feels like selfish desires that I'm asking for right there, you know? But so, that feels like selfish desires, right? Now, let's assume it hasn't happened yet, so I don't know what is going to happen with all that.

But let's assume, you know, I actually get some of them, right? Whether or not, you know, whether or not I actually prayed for it, let's just assume that I do get some of them. Now, that means that it was God's will for me to get some of them, right?

So then, am I, you know, am I still praying contrary to God's will at that point? Because, you know, in the future, I did actually get them? Or, you know, does it not matter? Because, hey, you know, like, that's obviously just selfish desire type stuff.

How does that work?

Well, there's a distinction between God's prescriptive will and His decretive will. So, or other categories people use are secret and revealed will. Basically, He has revealed, He has prescribed what is good.

So, for example, you know, His glorification is good. He has prescribed that different good works are good, that other things are evil. And evil things happen all the time. So, just the fact that it comes to pass and it's part of His decretive will, that it occurs according to His decree, does not necessarily make it something that was good to pray for.

You know, you couldn't pray for, you know, the death of 100 people or whatever, right? And the fact that 100 people die, that would be a good thing necessarily, right?

Right, right.

So, you can't just, yeah, you can't just pray for something and it become good because it comes to pass. Rather, yeah, what we're talking about God's will here is that His priorities be glorified in the occurrences that happen.

I mean, He could give you those guns so that your wife could shoot you with them.

I mean, we do have an assurance.

Yeah, we do have an assurance that all things come to pass for the good of those who love God in Romans 8, 28. So, we do know that anything that does come to pass does glorify Him. So, in that sense, but if you're praying for it with the wrong, you have to do it, you know, with the right reasons.

You have to know how it would play out to, you know, His glorification, etc. If you're just using that as a phrase, it doesn't mean anything.

Now, counterpoint here, though, and, you know, I think this is, you know, I don't know what you're going to be able to say against this, basically, but, you know, guns, guns equals freedom, and freedom is good.

So, you know.

God's a God of freedom, right?

Yeah, God loves a gun-toting American, you know. So, there you go. I don't, you know, I don't know what else to tell you, man.

Well, you know, I do think there are legitimate reasons to own guns, as do you, apparently, right?

Yeah, and multiple.

And so, if we're told to pray to God for daily bread and for other things, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with incorporating anything you might do that is reasonable into your prayer life.

However, you know, once again, is it for your own pleasures? If it is for your own pleasures, should you even be purchasing the thing, right? So, like, the command to pray in this way is not just a command to limit what we speak to God about.

It's also a command to change how we're living our lives. So, if you are doing something that you can't pray for God's blessing on, maybe you shouldn't be doing that thing. If you're doing something and it is reasonable, then yes, it's perfectly appropriate to go to the Lord with that in a way that is acknowledging where it would fit into his priorities.

Once again, not for your own pleasures, but with his priorities.

That's something that, yeah, that's something as I've looked at James 4, and I've tried to pray prayers that weren't violating the spirit of James 4. It really does cause you to think about, well, why am I asking for this?

And am I asking for this for the right reason? And it really does help you to think about what you're actually doing in your life and the decisions you're actually making. And, you know, if you can't pray for it with a good conscience, then as you're saying, it really is an indication that maybe you shouldn't be doing the thing anyway.

All right, I'll go. All right, fine. I'll go cancel the business I had on this stuff.

Hey, you may need them, you know, in order to stop this tyrannical government. Conley really needs them because California just passed that bill, or is trying to pass that bill that will throw him in jail if any of his kids start to feel confused about their gender.

I'll send you the link to the auction, Conley.

Get your collection out before then. But all right, so back to the title question, should we pray for apostates? What do you think? You gave one kind of answer, but maybe elaborate on some more answers.

So what's the case? What's the case you have?

So I'm sure your listeners are, you know, just dying to know the answer.

Because we haven't really gotten to, like, why shouldn't they?

The very next verse, I read 1 John 5 .14 that says, if we ask for anything according to his will, he hears us. And then 15, the very next verse addresses this matter. It says, if anyone sees his brother committing a sin, not leading to death, he shall ask and God will give him life to those who commit sins that do not lead to death.

There is sin that leads to death. I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin that does not lead to death. So there is a sin that leads to death that we should not pray for it.

Now, I've pointed this out to people and they have said, well, saying that you don't have to pray for this is not saying not to pray for this. And I would argue that there's no reason that John would mention that someone doesn't need to pray for this unless the point is that shouldn't be praying for this thing.

Yeah, we are not to pray for this one who's committed the sin that leads to death. And so the question is, what is the sin that leads to death? And there is enough other scripture that confirms that this is referring to apostasy, a complete leaving of the faith, a rejection of the faith.

Before you give those reasons, maybe you could spell that out a little bit more as to why the explanation you just give is necessary. I've talked to people about this verse in general, and they will instantaneously go to the argument that you just made.

And they will say, well, he doesn't say that you shouldn't. He just says he's not telling you to. So why is that such a poor response? Maybe elaborate on that a little bit.

Yeah, well, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts, too. But basically, if we're supposed to be praying, I think it's a poor response. If we're supposed to be praying according to God's will, and he has revealed his will for him to say that we should not be praying for that, or that he does not say pray for that, then it either means that God has not revealed about this matter, in which case, why not pray for it?

If it is possible, then you should pray to lead this brother away from death. Or that he has revealed contrary, in which case, you shouldn't be praying for it. So either way, James should be giving a firm answer to pray or to not pray.

The idea that he's just leaving it up in the air, I don't know whether or not you should pray, or that it's of a lesser priority or something. Yeah, this is a poor way of approaching Scripture that I think comes from a desire to a predetermined answer, basically.

Yeah, I think the whole idea, too, just to piggyback on that a little bit, too, like the whole idea of praying according to the will of God, that seems like a positive instruction that we're actually told to model our prayers after.

And I think that that's the thing that many people, I really think most Christians think that praying according to the will of God just simply means adding that phrase, Lord willing, at the end. And so I think in their mind, what they think is, you just pray anything you want to pray for whatever reason you want to pray it.

And that's totally cool, right? As long as you don't hold onto it too tightly and say, Lord, you can do it if you want or don't do it if you want. So I think most people in their mind, that's kind of the hang up.

The hang up is they have this view of prayer that you just, like you're just, like I said, you're like a blindfolded person standing in front of a dartboard and hoping something sticks or something like that, instead of there being a real obligation that you pray according to the will of God.

And if there's a real obligation, even in that passage, to pray according to God's will, and then he says, I don't say that you should pray for that, then that should tell you that if you want to pray confidently, you need to figure out what God's will is.

And John just told you he's not telling you to pray for that, right?

So, yeah, exactly.

All right. So along those lines, then, I mean, what's your case? So what's your case? So first, John is talking about the sin leading to death and you're tying that to, like, how do we know what that is, right?

So the next response that people are going to give is, well, whoever knows what that means, right? So who knows what that means?

Why do you think you know what it means?

Who are you?

How dare you?

You know, so tell us why it's what it is.

Hebrews 6, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and Apostasy

Yeah, well, if John expects his readers to understand what he's saying, we are those readers, you know, we should know what he's saying. And as I said, Scripture gives us enough hints. They're not just hints.

Scripture interprets Scripture, and it lets us know what this is. Jesus is clear. There's only one unforgivable sin. You know, he talks about all the different things that will be forgiven. But the one thing that will not be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

And so if this is the sin that can't be forgiven, that we shouldn't be praying for God to forgive, and Jesus told us what that one thing is, that gives us an answer. And then furthermore, there's the related passage in Hebrews 6, which likewise speaks of the impossibility of repentance for the one who is apostatized.

And so when you realize that none of this makes any sense, unless all of these passages are talking about the same thing, that's when you are able to build this together and say, these are all talking about apostasy.

So why does it not make any sense unless they're all? I mean, I agree with you. I'm just asking you to spell it out. So spell out why they all go together and then spell out why it wouldn't make any sense.

Right.

Well, it wouldn't make any sense in that we wouldn't be able to understand completely what's being said and they are written for our instruction, right? These words are written for us to understand. So in order for them to be understood fully, and that's what I mean by making sense, is to be understood fully, which we know is a guarantee in a passage that's didactic like this.

So if we can understand it fully, we should be able to know what the sin leads to death is. Given that Jesus has said that there is this unforgivable sin, we know that that's the same thing. Now, when Jesus talks about this blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, it's a little difficult to discern what that is, I would say, apart from having the interpretation of Hebrews 6, which also describes what it means to be one who cannot be forgiven, who will not be granted.

Maybe you could read Hebrews 6 for us.

Yeah, where it clearly describes apostasy. So yeah, let's go ahead and look at Hebrews 6. It says in verse 4,. For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

So yeah, just to point out some things here. This is one who has once been enlightened, has tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come.

Now, a lot of people worry or wonder, is this talking about the process of losing salvation? You know, someone who has the Holy Spirit and then loses it. Like, isn't that talking about losing salvation?

Or there are some people who say, who have a Calvinist understanding of salvation. They say, you can't lose your salvation, but this is actually talking about losing your salvation. You know, Charles Spurgeon, if you go and you read his sermon on this, he basically says that.

He says, this is talking about losing your salvation. Now, this has never happened before, and it won't ever happen, but it's a hypothetical that could happen. It's a really weird take on it.

It's that, like, treating the warning passage as essentially an impossible hypothetical that's meant to bring about perseverance, essentially. So it's a means of perseverance by telling you, by warning you against something that functionally can never happen.

Exactly. Yeah, and I don't think that's a very sensible interpretation of this. Rather, you know, we can see lots of examples in scripture where someone has the influence of the Spirit on their life that is temporary, right?

Like Saul in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit comes on him and he prophesies. Now, a lot of people really get hung up on the pronouns of in versus on and stuff, and I think that's honestly, like, a little misguided.

But also, talking about tasting the heavenly gift, talking about being enlightened, having tasted the goodness of the Word of God, what I think this is all really getting to is not an experience of salvation, but rather an experience of the goodness of God so that your knowledge of the truth is not merely a propositional one when it comes to the truth of salvation, but an experiential one where you have felt the goodness of what God is doing in his church in an immediate sense, not a mediated way where you've heard about it or even, you know, even gone to church and heard about it, but rather have experienced it more fully.

So when I'm talking about leaving the faith, I'm not talking about necessarily the child who grows up in the church and then they, you know, when they get to their adulthood, they have more freedom and so depart from the faith, you know, say they don't believe it.

I think there's still hope for such a person typically. However, because, and the reason I say that is because they haven't necessarily experienced what this is talking about. You know, they haven't necessarily participated in the fellowship in such a way to have been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift.

But one who has been a part of the church in a larger capacity, we have reason to say that they have tasted the heavenly gift. They have experienced these things. And as such, then when they reject the word of God, not just as a proposition, but as something that they have no excuse to reject as the one who has experienced this goodness, they're not losing their salvation, rather they're one who has experienced the realities of salvation without having experienced, without having been saved and then reject that truth.

Would you think that part of that is, you know, I'm kind of thinking out loud here, but this is something I've thought about over the years with these passages, but related to like tasted the heavenly gift and like once been enlightened, having tasted the heavenly gift, I mean, over and over again, as you're reading through Hebrews, it seems like the frequent kind of admonition is, you know, today, if you hear his voice, you do not harden your heart as they did in rebellion.

And I mean, obviously like the Holy Spirit, he works on people in different ways. And one of the ways that he works on people was to convict them of sin, righteousness and judgment. And so, you know, if I'm trying to describe the difference between maybe like the kid growing up in church, who as compared to the difference between what you're talking about, it seems like part of that might be just a real experience of conviction of the Holy Spirit that they have, like he's been convicting them and convicting them and they're suppressing that and unrighteousness and ignoring that.

But what do you think that that would be part of how you would explain the Holy Spirit language in there? Or how do you explain the Holy Spirit language in there? Are you more talking about it in terms of just like phenomenologically, like experiencing the work of the Holy Spirit with other people?

Like, is there any aspect of the Holy Spirit being at work in the apostate, short of, you know, obviously indwelling or something like that, that you think that this is referred to?

Right, yes. There is some work short of indwelling, short of what the believer has where, and that's why Jesus is willing to call this blasphemy of the Spirit, right? Because it is. And he says that blasphemy against the Son will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit, you think, why would he distinguish the Son and the Spirit this way?

It's not like the Spirit is higher than the Son. Rather, it's that the Spirit is the one who communicates these convictions, these truths to the heart of someone. And then if they reject that truth, there is a higher level of culpability such that because they are crucifying the Son of God again, and that's the way it phrases, you know, the guilt of having done this, because they are doing this, God will never grant them repentance.

Now, it's not saying that he would never forgive one who comes to him in repentance. So, you know, a lot of people get concerned that maybe they've committed the unpardonable sin or something like that.

If you come to God in repentance, you can be assured that you are not one who has committed the sin. But he is saying that he will never grant repentance to the one who has committed the sin.

So basically, you're saying there that, you know, someone who apostatizes himself, they're never going to want to come back to the true church in the first place, right?

Exactly. Yeah, they may be tormented of soul. They may have regrets. You know, later on in Hebrews, it talks about Esau, you know, who found no place for repentance, right?

Hebrews are diligent with tears and all that.

Right.

Yeah, so there might be torment of soul. You know, you even think of Judas, right? He had a lot of regret, but he found a place for repentance. So it's not, that worldly sorrow is not godly repentance.

But yeah, godly repentance will never be granted to the one. They will never have that in their heart. The Holy Spirit will never regenerate them so that they would be born again and have that level of repentance.