The Importance of Apologetics

This is episode 11 with my man Jeremiah Nortier, and it was awesome getting to sit down with him, talk about his apologetic platform, theological questions, his theological debates that he's been hosting and performing, and really just overall look at the church.

So big thank you to Jeremiah for coming on and making me really think sometimes, man I had a hard time keeping up with him, but as always appreciate y 'all, thank y 'all for everything, and enjoy.

Let's do it. What's going on everybody? I'm locked in today with my man Jeremiah Nortier.

I'm so happy you're here, dude. I've been waiting on this one, and it's been exciting. Thanks, bro. I've been looking forward to this as well, and I miss seeing you, so I enjoyed having some mama sayings.

Dude, it was great. It was great. I ate way too much. Oh dude, I ate way too much as well. It was good, that spicy tuna roll was hitting, that's for sure, but we got a lot of stuff to talk about today, man.

And you never cease to fail to amaze me how much you know, man. You're like a walking book.

Don't be telling your audience all that stuff, man. It's insane, dude, but so what all you got going now?

I mean, what are your focuses? Yeah, well, I run an apologetics ministry.

That is probably where my heart is at the moment in just terms of focus and praying for it, and I'd love to be able to explain a little bit about that.

It's called The Apologetic Dog. And the idea comes from 1st

Timothy chapter 6 verse 20, where the Apostle Paul tells Timothy, Oh Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you.

Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge. And so the apologetic dog is kind of like a guard dog mentality.

We are guarding the truthfulness of the gospel that's been entrusted to us for all saints, right, to contend for.

When he says avoid irreverent babble, he is saying avoid, beware of worldly philosophy that rivals against the knowledge of God's Word and His truth.

These philosophies are going to claim to be truth, right? They're going to claim to have secret knowledge, and we expose contradictions.

We use the tools that God has given us like logic, and we expose the folly of these pagan philosophies, and we hold to true knowledge.

The Bible tells us that the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom. And so you have to actually let the

God of truth reveal to us truth and knowledge from His Word. Yeah, which is awesome because that's essentially, in a nutshell, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's essentially what apologetics is, right?

It's a defense. Absolutely. Yeah, which is much needed. Yeah, it's a defense, which is great because there's other scriptures.

1 Peter 3 15 that says, sanctify the Lord in your hearts, being ready to give a defense for the hope that lies within you with gentleness and respect.

And so that's kind of that defense, but apologetics is also twofold. It's being able to provide a defense, but it's also going on the offense as well.

It's contending for the truth. That's exactly what Jude 1 verse 3 tells us that we are to contend for the faith that has been once delivered to all the saints.

So it's kind of offensive and defensive. Yeah, and that's awesome. I mean, that's a really, really cool thing, which that entails a lot of debates, which

I'd like to get into as well because it's very interesting, and you have so much knowledge about different doctrines.

Which we talked about that earlier, but tell me a little bit about the debates.

Dude, everybody loves the debates, or everybody has very strong polarizing opinions about debates.

Firstly, I want to say that something that the debates that I care about, what it's not, is it's not like the political debates that we've seen in the past with like Hillary and Donald Trump just yelling at each other, just hurling insults.

Yeah, ugly stuff. Ugly stuff. I try to tell people that's not biblical debate, and when

I say biblical, there's actually a time in the scripture where there was much debate, and it's very important. And a lot of people will say, why engage with debates?

Doesn't that cause more harm than good? Isn't that more divisive than unifying? And so I try to help remind people is that Jesus said in the

Gospels that I did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword to bring division with son and father, mother and daughter.

And the point is if we're gonna stand on truth in the gospel, it's actually going to divide from error.

But it's going to unify those who are being saved. So it just, it depends.

We want to think biblically about these categories. And so I don't want to do the worldly kind of debating, right, of the hurling of the insults.

But I do want to do the biblical kind of debating. I believe it's Ephesians 4 verse 15 where the

Apostle Paul says that we must speak the truth in love. So we hold firm to truth, right?

That's gonna divide from error. But if we speak in love, it's gonna bring great, wonderful unity.

And so I want to share a biblical passage that actually talks about debate. In Acts 15, this is the birth of the early church, and then you had this heretical group called the

Judaizers. They were trying to corrupt the gospel, and this is what we read in Acts chapter 15.

But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers. They said this, Cruz, Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.

Now in effect what they're saying is, okay, we understand that Jesus is the the Mashiach, the long prophesied

Messiah to come, that he came, he died, he was buried, he was resurrected, but you still have to become a

Jew. You have to obey these Mosaic laws. You have to become a Jew before you can become a

Christian. And so essentially what they were doing was adding the work of circumcision to the gospel.

Now listen to this next verse. And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension, they debated with them.

Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the Apostles and the elders about this question.

And so my point is, there was no small dissension amongst them about what the gospel is, what it means to be saved before God Almighty.

They debated these things. You know what their conclusion was? Was later in verse 11 of Acts 15,

But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of our Lord Jesus just as the

Gentiles will. So they concluded that it's, we are saved by grace through faith apart from works.

Right. And my point is, this is the apostolic witness that we have. When we look to Scripture, debating is a wonderful thing if it's done in love and it's contending for the truthfulness of the gospel, right?

Because to believe a wrong gospel, what happens? You'll be lost. Galatians 1 says, if someone comes along and preaches a different gospel than what the apostles preached, let them be accursed.

Anathema, right? Let them go to hell believing their lie because we are holding firm to the truth.

But if we love people, we would actually share with them the truth. We would try to help them in their folly and bring them out of them.

Right, which I think is essentially, I think that's the meat of it.

And I think that's what people need to hold on to, is that man, it's so important that that happens, that the debate goes on because it is out of love and that's what we're put here to do.

I was thinking today, I was thinking, man, I don't stress much anymore over what my purpose is here because I have one purpose.

That's the spreading of God's word. I mean, and that's it. You can fulfill that and your life is complete.

So, and that goes right along with the debates as well because it sounds like there may be a bit of a negative connotation around them.

Right, and I'd like to encourage your listeners, if you're interested in listening to some of these debates, my primary platform for doing my

Apologetic Dog ministries is going to be on YouTube. So you can easily search the Apologetic Dog.

You can also search my name, Jeremiah Nortier. And so it's all coming from YouTube and then

I'm hoping to stretch that out to put on different podcast platforms that, you know, things like that a different time.

But I've had the honor of being able to do five debates within these last two years.

Gosh, yeah. Five. They've got to be pretty strenuous stuff, too. I mean, it's got to be pretty intense.

It's pretty intense and they're really long. I tell people debates not for everyone just because that's kind of how

I think and hopefully we can get into this a little bit later, but I'm competitive in a way and I want to do it in such a way that is glorifying to God and I can show love to other people.

But debates not for everybody. I also serve as a pastor at a new church plant here in Jonesboro for the past 18 months, 12 -5 church.

And not everyone's called to preach and be a pastor either, right? Some of us are called to be teachers for the flock.

And so what we're all called to do as Christians is to share the gospel with other people and to make disciples.

So understand there's different layers to this and God has just built me in such a way,

Cruz, where I can think in terms of debate, structure, back -and -forth dialogues, rebuttals, things like that, and I'm still learning and growing.

Yeah, but that's so encouraging to see you doing that, you know, for the glory of God because I read the other night in my Bible where it said that we were given different gifts and to live them out for the glory of God.

Which is, that's an amazing thing, you know, because some of that stuff flies way over my head, you know.

Dude, I'm right there with you in terms of ever, ever learning and growing and there's a lot of things that I still like.

I love studying the mysteries of the Trinity. I rise for the rest of my life. I will continue to be ever growing in that.

So with the debates, it's been interesting because like I said, I've been doing it for about two years and I've received a lot of positive feedback from people that I have learned a lot and caused good questioning and just further study.

And then I've also received the back side of that, the people that disagree and a lot of kind of hate for it. Yeah, I was gonna ask you what the feedback was like because I can see somebody getting their feelings hurt, getting offended and because it is the truth and the truth can be offensive.

So have you ever seen any overwhelmingly work done within somebody's life and then they're just like, wow, you know, and then they kind of come to a realization?

I've seen that time and time over again, and that's all to the praise of God's glory, not my own.

But I can't begin to explain the type of mental strain and preparation for these debates that I go through.

It's way more intense than preparing to preach a sermon because in a sermon you are about, you're gonna be the only one talking and everybody's gonna be looking at you, right?

And you're just trying to rightly handle the Word of God, you know what I mean? And there's a lot of time and preparation that goes into that, like your dad has done that and knows that, you know what

I mean? But with debate, you're doing that but also preparing for what they're gonna say in terms of telling you how you're wrong.

Right. So there's a different level to that. My point is, why would I keep doing that? There's a part of me that enjoys it, but there's so much.

I'm like, Lord, I don't know if I can continue to do this on a consistent basis and keep my sanity and all my other responsibilities.

But something that the Lord shows me is all those people that, you know, reach out to me and tell me how they appreciate somebody standing for the truth in the context of opposition.

And so that's really encouraging. And I just, I know that God has gifted me in ways that I can do that.

So as long as I'm doing it to glorify Him, there's a sharpening process with myself that I love as well.

Like I'm a teacher at heart and a learner at heart, and this is just one of those avenues to kind of declare

God's truth. And I let Him give the increase because I've had people say, you're just getting up there and you're never gonna change that person's mind.

And number one, we don't know. Number two, I'm really appealing to the audience.

I'm wanting them to think about these deep issues. And you know, it's such a cool thing she said about being a teacher but also a student because man, that's so important for us to be held in both of those positions because we need to learn and then we need to be taught.

It's essential that we're always a student throughout our whole life, man. But I really, really appreciate you doing that because it does take some confidence and it does take a bit of courage to kind of step into those realms and say, hey, here it is, you know.

Do you care if I tell your audience kind of the debates that I've done over the past two years? Maybe to pique some interest here.

Two years ago, I debated a Mormon on we titled the debate different worldviews.

So it was kind of a discussion and we had about six different topics within that whole dialogue.

And so it was a less formal debate with like, you know, opening statements, cross examinations.

It was just a topic in mind and then we were gonna talk about it from different worldview perspectives and we could ask each other anything under the sun.

So I definitely encourage people if they want to hear a Christian, especially coming from a

Reformed Baptist perspective, engaging with a Mormon. We talked about things like what the gospel is, his version of the gospel, how

I understand the gospel. We had back -and -forth questions about that. We talked about obviously their, the way

I see it, their religion is based on Joseph Smith. And so I was talking about the alleged miracles, the failed miracles and prophecies that he had and and then

I also talked about how they view how he came about receiving these golden tablets from an angel, the angel

Moroni. And Galatians 1 tells us if someone comes and preaches a different gospel, which I would say gospel of works, even if it comes from an angel, let him be anathema.

So we get to talk about Joseph Smith in relation to Galatians 1. We talked about the sufficiency of Scripture.

So we talked about a number of those topics that people might would benefit going listening to that back -and -forth exchange.

So that was about two years ago. My second debate was against a

Greek Orthodox individual. What is that? So it's funny because I didn't really know their position much before.

So I actually do a lot of these debates at the Gospel Truth YouTube channel with Marlon Wilson as the host.

And so he he asked me to come back on the show to engage with an Eastern Greek Orthodox individual.

And so when you look at church history, in about the year 1000 AD, there was a massive split in the church.

You had the East and the West, the Great Schism. In the West is what we know as the Roman Catholic Church today.

And in the East is the Eastern Orthodox Church. Okay, so they have a lot of similarities, but they have a lot of differences as well.

And so we debated on is Sola Fide true or biblical, meaning are we saved by faith alone?

Or are we saved by faith plus works essentially? That's a huge, huge question, isn't it?

It's huge. So what doctrines pertain to each side? Yeah, so we would be

Protestants. We are still in some ways protesting against Rome today.

We believe that they preach a false gospel. They preach a gospel of you gotta have faith in Jesus, plus your baptism, plus all these ongoing sacramental works that you can only have in the

Roman Catholic Church, like doing penance, confession, a lot of indulgences. Indulgences play into that.

This finds itself all the way back to the Protestant Reformation. This was a big split with Martin Luther protesting against them.

And so as Protestants, we believe that we are justified. Our sins are no more applied to our account.

We're no longer guilty of the penalty of sin by our faith alone, apart from our works in Jesus Christ.

We're saying Jesus Christ's works alone save us. Do you remember when Jesus said it is finished on the cross to tell us not?

We believe that that's true. We believe that he did all the works necessary to atone for the wrath of God the

Father. Okay, and so we're saying you can't add your works to the already finished work of Christ.

That's why you have to look to him in saving faith, and then a great exchange happens. This is the beautiful message of the gospel.

When you look to Jesus Christ in saving faith, you get his perfect righteousness, his perfect obedience credited to your account.

A transaction happens. So you get the perfect righteousness of Jesus, and then all of your sin gets put back in time onto the cross of Calvary.

And so when God the Father looks at you, he sees the righteousness of his Son covering you, right?

He doesn't see the dirty rotten sin of Cruz anymore, but he sees the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

And so that's the beauty of the gospel of grace, unmerited favor.

God accomplished salvation at Calvary. And so as Protestants, we're saying you can't look to your works, right?

That destroys this gospel of grace. And it's not just what we're saying. That's what Romans chapter 3 says. Romans chapter 4 and Ephesians 2, 8, 9, and 10 tell us that we are saved by grace through faith.

This is a gift of God, not a result of works. Which, it's an amazing thing because that is the gospel.

You know, that's it, and it's such an overwhelming thing once you're given eyes to see it.

Where do you think the opposition to that spurs from? The idea that it is through works.

Where do you think that's, where did that originate from? That's a really good question. Because the

Bible actually tells us very clearly that man is not born good or neutral or innocent for that matter, but man is born in spiritual opposition to his

Creator. Man hates the things of God. He's an enmity. And so Romans chapter 1 tells us that this state of man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

Meaning that they love their sin so much that they are going to try to drown out all of creation, pointing back to the

Creator, and even in their heart of hearts. We've been made in such a way to bear God's image that we know that eternity exists and God dwells in eternity and that we're held accountable to him.

And so this system of works, Cruz, literally, you've got Christianity, which stands alone as preaching a gospel of grace, and then literally all false religion of the world, they teach a system of works righteousness.

And so I'm just saying it's the age -old, I don't like the truth.

I love my sin. I want to feel good about myself. So I'm going to create a list of do's and don'ts that I have to do in order to basically tell myself

I'm gonna be made right with God. I'm gonna feel really good about myself. Right, because it's sounds like it's a, you know, almost kind of like a watered -down self -idolization.

And that's what it what I really think it holds on to. It says giving credit to yourself, which

I've heard more and more frequently in the past few days, it seems like.

And my eyes be maybe just being open to it, but it seems as if it's I was saved because I believe.

And because, you know, that could be something that somebody could look at and say, man, it's such a little thing.

You're just nitpicking. But in all reality, I'm not sure that that is just that it that's too much because it was not our work.

It was his and that is the gospel. Yeah, no, that's a really good point because what we would want to ask the question is, okay, why did you believe?

Exactly. Was it because you were smarter than the next guy? Were you more spiritual than your sibling that you grew up with that also, or now, you know, hates the

Lord? We would say no. None of those things you can look to yourself and think, wow, I came to this realization on my own.

We're saying you chose God because he first chose you. Right.

And that concept right there, I can tell you so much, Cruz, gets either a lot of people mad or they don't want to think about it.

And I'm saying what this is meant to do is to show you the sovereignty of God and that literally this creation is for his glory.

And if you've experienced that grace and that mercy, those things that you did not deserve, that coming to this, you know, realization of who

Christ is and your sinfulness and your need for him, it changes your life 100%.

I've had people say, well, it doesn't really matter these types of doctrine. I'm like, it matters enough that God will reveal it to us in his word.

And I promise you, it'll change how you literally see everything. How did it change for you?

So very slowly and gradually, I grew up at a church where I could tell, and I believe that this church that I grew up at preached the right gospel, that it's by faith alone, apart from any works that we do.

And the way I look to Jesus, but not a lot of depth of discipleship and sound doctrine and digging deep.

And growing up, I started having some of these questions studying the book of Romans, and I wasn't getting really any help from the pastors, you know.

And so I started to learn these things on my own. Very blessed in the age of technology and had some key people in my life to really help me study these things.

But I started having these questions about who God is, right?

And just to be totally honest, you know, growing up in a Baptist church, one thing that a lot of Baptists are told is once saved, always saved.

Once saved, always saved. If you walked that aisle or prayed that prayer, then you're good. And I always knew something wasn't quite right with just the simple once saved, always saved.

Like I knew it's more than just a decision. You know what I mean? It's deeper. It's faith. It's a heart that loves

Christ. But I believed, okay, if you're truly saved, then

God will keep you. Right? I just, I remember thinking that. And then once I started studying the sovereignty of God and the work that He begins in you, literally

Ephesians 1, 6 tells us He who begins that work in you is faithful to bring it to completion.

And I thought, oh, that's why I can't lose my salvation. This is a work of God that He is accomplishing in my life from beginning to end.

I think it's Hebrews 12, verse 2, but it refers to Jesus as the author and finisher of our faith.

So it's those truths that began to be a game changer because I think you can have assurance of your salvation.

1 John 5, 13 says, and you can know that you have eternal life. I believe you can only know that if when you look at your heart and your life, you see the work of God in you.

If you love the biblical Jesus, you can know that that love comes from somewhere outside of this world.

Yeah, it's supernatural. You can tell because it's not anything of natural desire and it's completely deflating to your self image.

And that's another thing too, is that I feel like a lot of these oppositions to this particular doctrine, it's rooted in the pride and you can see it through the motive.

And I didn't mean to cut you off. No, no. But that came to me because it makes sense, man.

That's our natural desire is to be prideful in that way. But you know, one thing I wanted to ask you in particular was that, you know, knowing you, if anybody knows you, they will know how much of a hunger you have to learn and to how much glorification you give to God.

And it's amazing, man. It's honestly, it's amazing. And you've helped me so much. But where do you think that spurred from?

I mean, because it doesn't resonate with every person that you say,

I'm a believer. It doesn't resonate with every believer. Do you think we're given different hungers? Mm hmm.

Yes. Well, I can tell you in my own personal life, really neat, because I remember basically where it began, that hunger for God's word.

I was actually 21. I was actually 20, just about to turn 21. I went through basically the first and only breakup that I've ever had back in college.

And I remember my world just being turned upside down. And, you know, all my future endeavors, plans were just kind of crumbling.

It just was no more. And I remember I was a sophomore in college, which you're just about to be done.

Yes, me. So it's great getting to talk with you because your age is when

God really started to mold my life at that age. So I didn't know a lot of the scripture when

I was 20, 21. But I knew that I had not been walking with Christ the way that he had called me to.

And so I'm not kidding, Cruz. Like in my dorm room, I remember crying out to God, basically just saying, okay,

I'm ready to start living the way that you want me to. Yeah. And I know it has to begin in your word.

So I did something radical. I don't necessarily, you know, encourage everybody to do this, but I memorized the whole book of James, which was,

I think it was 108 verses. And how long did that take you?

I was on a very slow, like every, a week at a time, I was learning four verses, right?

Four verses at a time. So I think it took many months, but with enough repetition and a drive to do it.

And my point is I was memorizing verses and I didn't really know the meaning or depth yet, but I knew

I had to be searching. I had to be searching after God and his word. Right? Right.

Yeah. Because that's insane though. I mean, how did you know that you did memorize it?

Could you recite it? Did you see it? Oh my gosh, man, that is crazy. I knew it so well. And I remember

I used, I don't know it now like I did back then, but it was in the New King James translation.

And a few years ago I switched to studying and preaching out of the ESV. So occasionally when I'm quoting something, it'll come out in New King James, but repetition.

I had MP3s of the whole book of James and I remember I would have verses on a loop on my phone as I'd go to sleep reciting it.

So it did not come easy. It took a lot of hard work, but I wanted it. Yeah.

And I'll tell you what, I think John Piper, John MacArthur, a lot of these men were very influential in my life.

But something John Piper said, he said, to invest time in a relationship with the

Lord is you pray to God. That's you talking with him. And he speaks back to you through his word.

And when you memorize God's word, you can talk to him wherever you go. I took that to heart in a big way.

And I just thought, I want to be able to talk with God and know what his will is for my life, wherever I go.

So I started approaching the word of God like that. Not just ink on a page, but the living, breathing words of God.

And that changes the way you approach scripture. When you look at it as living and breathing and active and sharper than any double edged sword.

When you look at this as this is a way for me to have relationship with the creator, like that changes things.

Yeah. And it's overwhelming, isn't it? It's so humbling because you're like, who am I to have that? I mean, that's an amazing thing, man.

I mean, that could bring you to tears. You're like, there's so much grace there. I mean, it's just so much grace.

And it's just, you know, I was telling dad this a while back.

I was telling him that it's so overwhelming. I have a hard time describing it.

It's like I can't find the words to describe it. I'm at a loss of words for him.

But like you were saying. Yeah. So that was just kind of the beginning stages of that hunger.

And to be perfectly honest, Cruz, it's really not died down ever since then.

No, it doesn't look like it. Well, that's like you've been saying all by the grace of God, where I'll be 30 in a couple of weeks.

So I'm feeling my age there a little bit. Is that crazy to you? Yeah, it is. Leaving the 20s doesn't seem right.

I still feel about 22, 23. Like that's how I feel. So knowing that I'm about, you know, almost 10 years down the road from that,

I'm like, reality check. Is it true that it goes by quicker as you gain more time? It becomes so unreal how fast time flies by.

Yeah. That is true. That's cliche, but it's also true. It is kind of crazy though.

You got to seize the day, man. Exactly. So I remember that. And so I was still in college and you just talk about almost an awakening of like, okay,

Lord, I really want to live for you. Like, I believe I was saved since I was 14, but there wasn't hardly any spiritual growth since I was turned 21.

And so I ended up marrying my wife. Obviously there was a whole dating period and whatnot.

But as we were dating, I told her, I think I'm feeling the call to ministry.

Because I was that guy in like a finance class in the back, not really paying attention and studying my

Bible. Like I just found myself, you know, some of those signs and Cruz, you're going to laugh at this, but I hated public speaking.

I remember praying, saying, Lord, I do not want to public speak. I think I remember you telling me that a while back.

I do. I think I remember you telling me about that. Cause you had, didn't you have one public speech that you did and like it kind of nerve wracked you, didn't it?

Oh yeah. I'm actually a major in communications. And so I did a lot of public speaking only to realize that I hated it, but I love the people of God and I love studying his word.

And I love teaching kind of like one -on -one setting right here. And I realized very quickly, you got to be willing to expand outside of just one -on -one, even though that's awesome.

I'll tell you another thing that started helping me tear down those barriers is realizing my anxiety to speak with people

I don't know. And just, I think pride, like you were talking about earlier. Yeah. I noticed

I'm called to share the gospel with people as I'm going, and there's no time to get, to be so, so focused on my image and my pride.

I just need to be faithful and obedient to what God has called me. That was a really, really good perspective, man.

That is a really good perspective and humbling as well. Because once you put it like that, you put

God first and then yourself on the back burner, which is the whole purpose of delivering a sermon.

So that's really good. That's really good stuff. Did it come, did you kind of grow into it or was it like when you had that thought, it was initially, okay, this is what

I want to do. And then you were comfortable with it. Definitely grew into it. I love how you put it that way.

Because when Allie and I first got married, I actually was sought out for a youth pastor position.

And I remember telling these pastors, I felt like I need to go to seminary first before I pursue a job in ministry.

And these men were great. They came to my life and just said, Hey, you know, we will come alongside you and mold you and equip you.

And I was like, okay. And so I felt like, Lord, I'm trusting you in this and definitely grew into it.

I would overstress and type out all my notes on like just a very typical

Wednesday night teaching with the youth. And so over time, I figured out kind of that group dynamic when you want to have a good

Bible study where you're not the only one speaking. And then, so I kind of got the hang of that. And then

I remember it like it was yesterday. My first sermon ever preached, Cruz. I'm sure my knees were shaking.

I did not look up at anyone. Oh my goodness. I probably would have vomited if I would have actually looked up.

And I spoke really fast. That's so funny, man. Oh man, it was trippy too.

I just remember kind of feeling sick. And over the years, Cruz, it's been about six years that I've been in ministry.

It's just God's grace has always been sufficient for my every need.

And more and more over time, I just trust him. And I typically just say yes, when there's opportunities to preach the gospel, teach, disciple, go speak at this event over here.

Even if I get nervous, God has been so gracious in those. And I'm reminded in my own strength, that's nothing, right?

That amounts to nothing, it's vain. But when I lean on his strength, he blesses it in ways that I wouldn't have been able to even understand.

Right. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's really the epitome of it is because of how weak we are and how strong he is.

That's why it's such a great combination, man. You know, I mean, you've got to get rid of the self -dependency.

You just got to throw yourself out. And then I had struggled with that so much, man.

And, you know, I never realized how prideful my motives, how prideful of a person

I was until I remember specifically, God gave me eyes to see who

I was. And it was just, it was almost like, well, it was shocking. It wasn't almost like, it was shocking.

And it was insane. I just remember thinking, wow, that's crazy. You know, I was like, what did

I become? You know, I was like a monster or something, man, the villain. It was, it was insane.

But yeah, that definitely resonates with me 100%. But it's so funny to see that you were, you know, afraid to public speak because you do such a great job pastoring now.

Well, your savings are amazing. Well, I liked how you said it just took time of growing into those things.

And it's identical to the debate arena too. You get all those same nerves, you know a person, you don't know a person, you don't know what's going to happen.

But at the end of the day, God is sovereign. When you're being prayerful about your study and you're going to speak the truth in love, you almost think, okay, it doesn't matter what the other guy says.

I know what I'm going to say ultimately, and I'm going to trust God with the results. And so earlier, we're talking about how

I debated a Mormon on different worldview discussion, debated a Greek Orthodox on faith alone.

Third debate was interesting. This was against a Roman Catholic. And the question was, is or was

Mary sinless? And so this gets into kind of Roman Catholicism and their doctrine of who

Mary is, the Immaculate Conception, and how she was born without the stain of original sin, and they believe that she was sinless.

And we believe, as we look at scripture alone, that's another $5 word in Latin, the sola scriptura, very important, when we look to the scripture as our ultimate authority, man, you just don't see that.

You see, Jesus was without sin. But when you look at Mary, she's praying to God and praising him as a savior.

Well, that should cause you to be like, if she's without sin, why would she pray to God being her savior?

Yeah, why would she reach out? Yeah. And the point is, she's a sinner saved by grace through faith, just like the rest of us.

So that was the third debate. Really enjoyed that. I learned a lot of things about Catholicism that I just had no idea, probably wouldn't have unless I intentionally studied for that debate.

So that was really good. Number four, number four has probably been my favorite debate so far.

It was a live in -person debate here at ASU, live and in -person, had over 200 people in attendance.

Really? Yes. Dude. Yes. And so far, we've had over 3 ,000 views on my

YouTube page of that video, which is not terribly a whole lot, but it's a... That's what's up.

That's what's up. And on Marlon's page, we have a second copy and it has about 2 ,500 views.

Oh, that's awesome. And we debated on basically if water baptism saves a person or not.

Now there's a more technical thesis that people can go look up, but that's really what it boiled down to.

And we're saying, no, your baptism, nothing that you do, none of your accomplishments, no ceremony can save you before God.

It's by His grace. His grace is sufficient. And it's by His grace working in us to give us faith as a gift to look to Jesus.

That's no works on our part, right? Is baptism important? Yes, as a picture of what

God has already done in our heart, in our life. Right. And, you know, it seems like there's a very familiar theme and it seems like there is an overarching theme of all of these doctrines outside of this that it looks like the basis of them are works.

And that's what it boils down to is instead of, for instance, with the baptism, it seems as if, you know,

God is the power that does the work. It's not us. It seems like that's what it boils down to.

And correct me if I'm wrong. I think so. The way that I've always understood this is you have two religions in the world.

You have the religion of human achievement, which is, take your pick.

It's all the religions of the world that say, I'm going to accomplish X, Y, and Z, and that's going to gain me paradise.

That's going to gain me favor with God. That's the religion of human achievement. And then you've got this system of grace, of divine accomplishment.

God does it, right? And you look to him in faith. That's no works on your part.

That's nothing that you do in terms of your external actions of obedience and to be able to point back and say, hey, look what

I did over here. No, when you look to faith, you're recognizing your utter depravity, that you don't bring

Jack to the table. You're trusting in the one that accomplished everything. And so, no,

I think you're right. When it boils down, there's something that all these false religions have in common, and the truth is left shining by itself.

Exactly. Boom. That's it. That is it. But you know, the irony that, you know, the work, if, you know, you put a,

I guess, a definition of truth on that the work lies within us. I don't see a reason why anybody would cry out to Jesus in the first place, because if you're capable of that strength, you wouldn't have any need for that, because it'd be suppressing.

Yeah, and this is where the scripture actually speaks very clearly of what man's nature looks like.

So we would say, what is biblical anthropology? How does the scripture teach us about who man is?

Well, scripture teaches us that we're born dead in our sins and our trespasses. Romans chapter three quotes the

Old Testament and says that there is none good, none righteous, no one seeks after God.

And a good illustration of this is Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus. He wasn't seeking after God.

He was actually going down the road to persecute and kill Christians. And then you see the picture of what happens for every single saint is that Jesus interrupts

Saul's life. Remember Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? Right. Yeah. And, you know, he was changed in a moment and he said, what would you have me do,

Lord? Right. He recognized Jesus, whom had already he had had a helping hand in killing, is now standing resurrected.

And he is believing that he is the divine name Lord. And he's saying, well, what shall I do? Acknowledging his authority.

Right. And so I say I go look to the testimony of the

Apostle Paul, which is Saul of Tarsus. He was not seeking after the Lord. He was actually suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, his love for sin and his legalism.

And God is the one that intervened his life. And that's how it always works.

Yeah. And that's an amazing example of it, because that kind of puts it into a biblical story for me.

I think that's why that story is so powerful. That's such a powerful story. It's amazing. I mean, that one,

I think that one resonates with any believer. It's got to, because then you see, you reflect on who you were.

And man, we were all that equivalent of Saul. Yeah. And earlier, you were talking earlier about the close connection between being a learner, a student and a teacher.

Right. And the chapter right before the conversion of Saul is the story of the

Ethiopian eunuch and Philip. And what I love about this is this Ethiopian eunuch, he was actually studying from the scroll of Isaiah, Isaiah chapter 53, one of the best passages in all the

Bible. It's predicting the suffering servant, the Messiah, who is to come, that he must suffer and die in such a way that he would atone for his people's sin.

It's so descriptive about, you know, by his stripes, we are healed. How really grabbing these old phrases about him, his hands and feet having to be pierced on our behalf.

I mean, the secular world, when they look at Isaiah 53, they probably just say, oh, that was fabricated to tell us about Jesus.

And it's like, that was actually written 700 years before he even walked the earth. I'm just saying that it's amazing.

So the Ethiopian eunuch, he's reading that. And then Philip comes along. He was kind of led by the spirit.

And Philip asked the eunuch, do you understand what you are reading? And I love what the eunuch said.

He says, how can I, unless someone guides me? Is Isaiah 53 talking about the prophet Isaiah himself or someone else?

And the text says, meeting him where he was at, beginning with Isaiah 53, began to teach him the gospel.

And you know, it's funny because, you know, I'm a teacher. And so obviously I identify as Philip there in that story.

You know what I mean? Right. A lot of times I see myself as the eunuch. I need a teacher to help guide me in the scripture as well.

That's why we need discipleship. That's why we need good Bible pastors, right? They're going to exegete the word on the

Lord's day that are going to guide us in his truth and equip us for the good work. And so anyway,

I was just saying that that's a rich story that I've often thought, you know, I want to be equipped to be a

Philip to somebody else, but I also want to have that heart of the eunuch of saying, Hey, I just want to be a learner. Exactly.

And you know, I was thinking about this. Do you think that these doctrines that hold on to the human achievement, to that perspective, do you think there's truly work done through Jesus in their heart?

That there's... Yeah, I think people can have a misconception about these things and be saved.

If that's where you're asking. Yeah. And, you know, people that say, well, Hey, I remember when

I was saved, I believed in Jesus. It was me. It was me. And I'm like, fair. It was you.

But we would say the Bible actually tells us why you chose Christ. It didn't begin with you.

It actually began with God. Exactly. So, and I think when people, you know, don't have a firm grasp on the sovereignty of God, man, he is gracious with all of this, even in our bad theology.

Right. I mean, but what matters though, is who are you ultimately trusting in?

Is it Jesus alone? Which everyone wants to say, but are you also trusting in yourself a little bit?

Because the moment that your trust is divided, wrong gospel. The moment that it's no longer a repentant faith from the heart loving

Christ, then it's not the true gospel. And you got to believe in the right Jesus. Remember, we talked about this earlier.

The Mormons believe in a Jesus that is spirit brothers with Lucifer. That's not, that's not the

God of scripture, right? Jehovah's Witnesses believe that God, the father created Jesus first of all of his creation.

Well, Jesus isn't a part of the created order, right? You got John chapter one, Hebrew chapter one, Colossians chapter one.

Jesus is the creator and all things are made for him and for his glory. Correct. So not only do you have to believe from the heart in repentant faith, but you have to believe in the right

Jesus. The one that can truly atone and forgive sin. Right, right. So you can be wrong on a lot of things, but those are the fundamental gospel issues that you can't be wrong.

Where is your trust at ultimately? And that's perfect. Yeah. Because, and you know,

Harold too, which is awesome, but that's what we talked to. We touched on that just a bit. We didn't get as, as deep as you and I have into it.

We were talking about the fundamentals. I love Harold. It's awesome. Harold, I hope you're listening, man. I love you, brother. That's so cool, man.

You sent me a picture of it. It was a selfie. And I was like, no way. I was like, I know those dudes. Me and Harold were like, how do you work this selfie?

Yeah. All the old heads, man. Oh, that's funny.

But, uh, what debate that you've had? What was your favorite? Okay. So the number four was the one with the church of Christ with, and it was live and in person.

And real briefly, this fifth one, real interesting. It was a two on two debate. Um, so the thesis was, is sola scriptura true?

And so it was me and a Protestant friend of mine that I've met through social media. And we versed, we went against two

Roman Catholics and these were two very, um, very scholarly

Roman Catholic apologists. And so that was fun to do a two on two debate. I've never done that one before.

And sola scriptura, just for your audience, basically is arguing, is the scripture, our

Bible, is that the ultimate authority in our life? My position is yes and amen. And Roman Catholics say, well, it's not the only ultimate authority.

It's not the sole ultimate authority. It's scripture's important along with the church and tradition.

They're all equally ultimate in their authorities. And I'm saying, no, God's word reigns supreme and guides the church and guides tradition.

Tradition may be right, may be wrong. But God's word is truth. That's what Jesus said in John 17, 17.

He said, Father, sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth. So God's word rises to the top above everything else.

So I'd encourage people to go listen to that. Um, but you gotta get your popcorn because it's over three hours.

I'm pretty sure. Gosh, dude, that's gotta be so intense. When you ask me, when you ask me which is my favorite,

I'm sure it's like a parent asking which is one of their favorite kids. Exactly. Um, cause

I got one. You just don't want to say, well, you're probably right with parents thinking that. Um, but I loved all the debates for different reasons.

Yeah. You know, just different doctrines got to interact with different people, but perhaps my favorite was the church of Christ one for a couple of different reasons.

Cruz earlier I said, because it was live and in person had over 200 audience, but I'm very passionate about informing people about the church of Christ.

Now this is a polarized polarizing statement, but I'm convinced that the church of Christ movement, which began not too long ago, they don't want to look into the pages of history, but they're not that old of a movement.

And I believe that they preach a wrong gospel and therefore are a cult.

Now that's a strong word. And that makes a lot of people mad. I don't say that out of meanness. I say that to warn people.

I really think that is a cult because a cult is a group of people that were within orthodoxy.

Held to the fundamental truths of the gospel, but then they departed. And so it actually begins with Alexander Campbell.

And like I said, if you talk to church of Christ, they don't like this because you're opening up their dirty laundry. You know what

I mean? And what breaks my heart is I love Acts 2 38, Mark 16 16, Galatians 3 27, first Peter 3 21.

I love all these same texts that are their go -to to kind of say, see baptism, baptism, baptism.

I'm like, look, anytime you read all those verses in their context, you will see that baptism is not the mechanism that declares us right with God.

It's by faith, right? And the just shall live by faith. I know you studied Martin Luther and the

Protestant Reformation. That was one of those verses where he was really, I say illuminated.

He really saw for the first time that the justified by faith now live to demonstrate that faith to the world, to give

God glory. And so our baptism is basically a public declaration of our faith, right?

Of our justification before God is by faith. And then we live to do sanctifying works to the world.

We don't hide it under a basket, right? But we're like a lamp stand and it's meant to shine to everyone.

We're that city on a hill. And so, I mean, it just defaults back into what we talked about earlier.

The church of Christ make baptism a necessary work, just like all false religions and cults do.

It devolves into a works righteousness system. And I say that from a place of love, because I care about people enough to tell them the truth.

And to say, don't look to yourself and your works that time that you did a baptism, and they believe that you got to continue to live a holy life, to continue to do obedience, or you can lose that grace of God.

And I'm saying that is not a gospel of grace. That is works righteousness from beginning to end, if that makes sense.

It does. Yeah. And what you said about how you care for somebody and you want to guide them to the truth, man, it's so important.

And that's such a message that should be vocalized and publicized everywhere, because that's what it comes down to.

That's the root of it. I mean, that's our jobs, man. You know, given the lens that I see through, that's my job.

I'm not doing that. I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing it for God. I'm doing that for the glory of Him. And that's what it all boils down to.

But it's very interesting that you do the debate thing, you know, and I think it's really cool.

I don't know if I could take it or not. I feel like it'd wear me out. Well, it wears me out.

It sounds like it, man. But you know, do you think that the debates would even be possible without the

Reformation? It was interesting because Luther paved the way in a lot of ways for the debate.

Like, you know, him nailing his 95 Theses at Wittenberg. He was wanting to debate these arguments.

He never intended to reform in the sense of break off and cause these denominations and so forth.

And to be honest, there's a ton of denominations. I wish there was less, you know what I mean? Yeah, and that's so interesting because before I really started to read into it, you know,

I had the idea. I didn't really have the background that Martin Luther was doing it just out of doing his job as well.

He was just holding them accountable because of the corruption that was going on. And he was coming from a theological stance.

Hey, this is wrong. But it uncovered just a huge mess. I think you're right, though.

I think he paved the way for a lot of it. Remember that Latin phrase that I taught you post

Tenderbreast Lux? Yes, yeah. What I see in God's providence is looking back how the gospel light never was fully extinguished.

Out of the darkness of Rome came forth the true gospel light, the gospel of grace that God is redeeming a people for his glory.

And so I love church history for that. Now, I'm never going to look at church history the same way that I look at Scripture, you know what

I mean? But I want to encourage the audience, look into church history.

It's to our benefit. A lot of our questions that we're asking today is not new under the sun. This has already been dealt with, you know, centuries ago.

So much you can learn from church history. And that's another thing that I've noticed with a lot of Church of Christ is there's no, it's kind of just my

Bible, me under a tree. No creed, but Christ. I don't need to look at anything else.

And it's like, well, think about this. Jesus said he is going to be the one to build his church.

He's been building his church for 2 ,000 years. The Spirit has blessed men and women of the past, right?

With teaching and wisdom. And we would glean wisdom too if we look at their arguments and test them with the word of God.

Paul says, don't despise prophecies. Don't despise the prophetic word that has been given to us, but test all things and hold fast to that which is good and true according to God's word.

So it's to our benefit to be students, to be learners, especially from the saints of old. I have so many wonderful theologians that I love.

And guess what? I don't agree with everything they say. Right. Yeah. You know, I think,

I can't remember if we talked about this while we were recording or not, because we had a long conversation before we started recording.

We should have recorded it. But did you, were you ever interested in philosophy?

Oh, bro. So it's funny that you asked me that. I used to hate science and philosophy about when

I was 21, because you got to think, the only thing I could think about was, I just want to know the word, just want to know the word.

But as I've grown, I would say spiritually and matured, I love science.

Science literally means knowledge, right? Knowledge is only possible in God's world, right?

The principle of uniformity only works if God is sustaining his creation to allow for order.

So on the same thought, I love philosophy now, but I will say philosophy is the handmaiden to theology.

Right. Colossians 2 tells us to beware of worldly philosophy. And so it's not that all philosophy is bad, but any good philosophy will be rooted in the principles of scripture itself.

Yeah, which was what I was going to ask you, because it's, you know, they go hand in hand, but they pertain to different perspectives.

Because it seems like philosophy is the question of why everything, and it's purpose, and here's the answer.

And there's more questions that branch from the biblical philosophy. Philosophy essentially boils down to being a lover of wisdom, right?

And so to me, that should be the Christian, right? The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.

So that's why I like how you say it's almost hand in hand, right? We ask the why questions, but we go to the creator who knows all things and revealed himself to us to tell us why.

Yeah, and it's that simple, man. You know, I think I saw something a while back that was saying the gospel is so simple, people will miss it.

You know, but it's like what you said earlier. The gospel is simple, but we must depend on God's grace illuminating the heart and mind, because you've got people.

It is simple, right? It's so simple a child can understand it, and yet it's so deep that theologians can spend a lifetime pondering.

You know what I mean? But it is so simple, and I don't think it's that, oh man, I just overlooked it.

But man loves his sin. So unless God illumines his heart, takes that heart of stone out and gives him a heart of flesh, a living beating heart, it's a moral issue, right?

It's not a matter of intellect. People know, you know what I mean? Right. But it's a moral issue.

They love their sin, and they don't want to bend the knee to the creator. So I think for guys like me and you, we pray for God to, number one, equip us through his word and through, you know, getting us plugged into godly churches to be discipled.

Then we pray for opportunities to share the gospel with people, and we present the gospel of grace, and we pray for their salvation, and we trust

God with the increase. You know what I mean? Because at the end of the day, he is the one that has to grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth.

Right, right. You know, when I say this, obviously I'm not questioning your reasoning.

I'm just, I'm actually curious because I want an explanation. You can tell me I'm wrong. I can take it. I'm not telling you you're wrong.

No way, dude. You got the book of James memorized. I'm not going to question this, dude. No, but when you say everybody acknowledges that, where is that?

Yeah, so Romans one tells us that all men know God exists, but they exchange the truth of the creator for the creation.

And it says, despising essentially the creator, they become fools. And it says that in verse 18,

I believe that they suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness.

So even though people know God exists, they love their sin so much that even later in scripture tells us that they will sear their conscience with a hot iron.

Right. Meaning that there's a level of self deception. It's not that they're going to look at me and say, Jeremiah, I actually,

I really believe in God and I'm just lying to you right now. I don't think that's what's going on. They know intuitively by looking at creation as a creator and they know in their heart of hearts,

God's law is written on their hearts. They know that they're accountable to their creator, but they love their sins so much over time.

They reason within themselves that the creator is actually not there. So do you think the point where it's seared, do you think it's just, it's over?

It's not too far gone. No, I think that's a great question. I'm of the opinion, if someone is living and breathing, it's never too late for God to grant them repentance and faith.

Right. I don't, I can't know that. Right. And I know we are told to not cast our pearls before swine.

So if I'm interacting with somebody, praying for them, trying to share the gospel, and they just take it every opportunity to blaspheme

God, I'm going to dust off my shoes and I'm going to go somewhere else.

You know what I mean? Yeah. So that's God's prerogative. That's a great question. And from a human perspective, man, it seems like some people are so far gone that it doesn't seem like there's any hope for them.

Yeah. And that's, you know, that's really why I was asking because, and it does, and that's almost a selfish thing to think.

Because we could be in the same position if it wasn't for God's grace. And it's very interesting because you do see how sinful and how rampantly sinful just the world is in general.

And I love what you said because it's not that we're better than them. Right. If it was not for God's grace, we would be right there in the midst with them.

And when you have that perspective, that changes how you live your life. When someone approaches you that's a sinner, unbeliever, right?

Well, we're going to meet them with grace because how can they understand, right? Because they're dead in their sin, their trespasses.

They need a Christ -like love that, that loves the unlovable, that shows them forgiveness even when it doesn't make sense.

Because that's how God interrupted my life, changed my heart. I was about to say

I was in the same position and that's what makes sense about it. And you know, you saying that you were dead in your sin, trespasses, it makes me think of when

I was really early in my faith, which is kind of odd to say because, you know,

I had, it was very testing and the conviction was eating me alive. And I remember

I was growing through it. And I remember God opened my eyes to that this life is basically, it's going the extension of life.

I mean, this life is leading to death and sin is synonymous with death. And Jesus said,

I'm the way, the life and truth. And that's what life is. I mean, that's life right there, man.

That's living. You know, we're able to live through Jesus. And if you're on the other path, it's not living.

There's a very odd and hard to grasp unless you have eyes to see it.

But I'm sure that you understand what that is. Yes. And when someone doesn't know

Christ and they're open about that, I just start praying for them in my heart, right?

Start praying for them. God, open up more opportunities for them to hear the gospel.

Lord, I pray that you would save them. Now, do I know if God's going to answer that prayer? I don't know. I don't have that knowledge.

Remember we talked about that verse that says the secret things belong to the Lord, but what he has revealed is for his children for eternity.

Right? What he's revealed to us in his word, we know that for certain. But I don't have that knowledge if someone's ultimately going to be saved.

But that's why I'm going to pray that God would save them, that he would use me as a means in their life to continue to minister to them and share the gospel with them.

And so, yeah, I'm just saying that I realize that they cannot be saved apart from God's grace, opening up their heart and their mind to these truths.

And so I trust God with it. God's word never returns void.

The Bible teaches us that. So when we're loving on people, showing them grace, showing them forgiveness, speaking the words of truth, all that has a divine purpose, the exact way that God intends it to go out.

Yeah, and you know, and this translates to this other theological question, which is a big question.

And I've had this question for a long time, man. This is a question that actually it kind of bothered me because I didn't have a good grasp on it.

And what is the explanation behind, which

I think this does divide theology and theological perspectives, but whether or not you can lose your faith, you can fall out.

Right. No, that's a great question. Man, you should ask Harold that. You always ask me the hard questions.

Man, Harold's got it easy, man. He's got it easy. It's a great question. It is a good question because, you know, another thing is, is that if you consider yourself a believer, you're going to ask that question.

Absolutely. You're definitely going to ask that question. I mean, your heart's going to be longing for an answer for that because it's so important to you.

Yeah, so I'll start off with the short answer first and then maybe the long one second. So someone who is regenerated, born again, it is impossible for them to lose their justification, their salvation that God has begun in their heart and life.

It's impossible. Now, for some people, that's a dissatisfying answer.

And for one, it's because they don't know what it means to be born again and they don't understand the word regeneration. But to help them, people that have been taught the opposite, what

I would just say is something that we would agree is not everyone who claims to be a Christian is saved.

This is where we find some almost common ground. Just because someone says they're a Christian, that doesn't mean that they are.

If someone says, I'm a Christian, and even they show up to church, they may know some Bible verses, none of that means necessarily that they're once saved, always saved.

They prayed that prayer. They made a confession. They open up their Bible occasionally and go to church. That doesn't mean you're automatically going to heaven.

You know what I mean? In fact, I would argue the opposite is, you know, if there's not a genuine heart change and a love and a desire.

Earlier, you're asking me about, you know, hunger. First Peter chapter two begins, I think, in verse three.

I can't see someone's heart. I can't see their desire to know their Lord and Savior. You know, you're talking about what is eternal life.

I believe it's John 17 three. Jesus says, this is eternal life that you may know the one true

God and his son, Jesus Christ, whom he sent. So knowing him intimately in a personal relationship, that's eternal life.

I can't see someone's heart to know that. But if someone just spouts off a few things here and there, they kind of externally do a lot of the right things.

But man, I don't, I don't really see that, that heart desire. I'm just saying, I just don't know. Just because someone says they have a said faith.

James chapter two in verse 14 begins this way. Just because someone says they have faith, but if their whole life denies what they're professing, they have a dead faith.

They don't have a faith that saves. So on the flip side, going back to your question, someone who is born again, their nature has changed.

And it didn't begin with their decision. It didn't begin with them. They weren't seeking God. So when their nature changes, that's a supernatural force that happens outside of this creative world.

God doesn't make mistakes. When you're born from above, when God takes out that heart of stone and gives you a new heart, you can't go from, okay, well,

God did this work on me and I'm regenerated and born again. But you know, later, even though I have this new nature,

I think I'm just going to go live back like the rest of the world. That's not how it works. It's changed. All things behold are new and become brand new and different.

And you're going to want to too. Let me ask you this. Um, did you have any say so with being born physically?

No, I did not. We, we, we didn't contribute jack to that. No. And if anybody listening did get in touch with me,

I'd love to have you on. I'd love to hear that story. And so the, the same principle applies for us being born again, spiritually.

You didn't contribute to that. Right. God did that to you. And so you have a new nature.

So it's impossible to undo the process of being born again. And when you're regenerated by the spirit, which means new birth, that's a good work that Philippians tells us that he is beginning.

He began in your life and he is the one that brings it to completion. So I want, I want to throw out some really strong verses to show that there's this golden chain.

When the Holy spirit begins that good work in you, it's impossible for you to fall away. Now there are some verses that the church of Christ and other denominations, they don't like the term denomination, but they are by definition.

They're a gathering of people around a particular form of doctrine. That's a denomination.

Anyway, um, there's a lot of people that believe you can lose your salvation and they point to certain verses and you'll hear me say this all the time.

But if you ever go to any one of those verses, you just examine the surrounding context and realize, Oh, that was a proof text taken out of context to kind of push this external idea onto the scripture.

But Romans eight, there's various other passages that we've been alluding to all night, but this is, this is so near and dear to my heart.

Um, Romans eight, 28 through 30 to me, make it inescapable to realize that someone that's truly been called by Christ, it's impossible for them to lose that saving, loving relationship with Christ.

Verse 28 says, and we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose.

Now this good Cruz is not like a health, wealth, prosperity. You're going to morally right, right.

This good, he actually goes and Paul explains in verse 29, it's for our sanctification. It's to mold us more and more into the image of Christ.

He says, for those whom he foreknew, right? God is omniscient. God knows things beforehand, right?

For those whom he foreknew, he had this wonderful, loving relationship. Even before we were born, there was that connection.

He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. That's that sanctification in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

And verse 30 here is called the golden chain of redemption. Okay. And those whom he predestined, he also called.

And those whom he called, he also justified. And those whom he justified, he also glorified.

You notice all those words are in the past tense because from God's perspective, it's a done deal.

Okay. And so this chapter goes on to say, so like when God begins that work, he's bringing it to completion.

From his perspective, it's already done. But this chapter winds down and says,

Paul says, for I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor death, nor anything else.

That's pretty extensive, right? Nothing else in all of creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our

Lord. He gave the most unexhaustible list that you could give to show that once you're in Christ, nothing's going to separate you out.

I've had Church of Christ tell me, well, nothing else can cause you to fall away, but you can.

And I'm like, well, it says that nothing in all of creation. Are you a part of creation? I'm like, oh, you are.

So not even yourself, but that's because your will has changed. You have a new nature. And he began this letter by saying, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

There's no more condemnation over our account. That's how we've experienced this love of the biblical

Jesus. We can know that it's a transcendent love, that it's a work of God. Even when I'm faithless,

He is faithful. And I have people say, well, I guess that means you can just go live however you want and God's grace can just abound because you're saved and nothing's going to change that.

Well, they forget about regeneration. I don't have the same desire I did before I was saved.

And so I don't want to sin because I want to live my life to glorify

God. Now, will I war against sin and will I fail? Absolutely. But that's where going to the

Lord and confessing my sin and truly begging Him to help me repent. That's what the

Christian life of sanctification is all about. Dude, you wrapped that up perfectly, man.

I mean, that was perfect. Well, I probably said more than I actually know. Dude, I so appreciate you and I enjoyed this so much, man.

This was awesome. And we're going to have to do another one. Let's do it again, man. We're going to have to do it again.