The Importance of Apologetics

Episode Introduction and the Purpose of the Conversation

This is episode 11 with my man Jeremiah Nortier and it was awesome getting to sit down with him talk about his apologetic platform theological questions his theological debates that he's been hosting and performing and Really just overall look at the church.

So big Thank you to Jeremiah for coming on and making me really think sometimes man I had a hard time keeping up with him. But as always appreciate y 'all. Thank y 'all for everything and enjoy.

Let's do it.

Apologetics as Guarding the Gospel

What's going on everybody? I'm locked in today with my man Jeremiah Nortier. I'm so happy you're here, dude. I've been waiting on this one and uh, it's been exciting.

Thanks, bro. I've been looking forward to this as well, and I miss seeing you. So I enjoyed having some mama sayings, dude. It was great. It was great. I ate way too much. Oh, dude. I ate way too much as well.

It was good that spicy tuna roll was hitting. That's for sure. But we got a lot of stuff to talk about today man. And you never cease to fail to amaze me. How much you know, man, you're like a walking book.

Don't be telling your audience all that stuff, man. It's insane, dude, but. Um, so what all you got going now? I mean, what are your what are your focuses? Yeah. Well, um,.

I run an apologetics ministry that is probably where My heart is at the moment in just terms of focus and praying for it. And i'd love to be able to explain a little bit about that. It's called the apologetic dog.

And the idea comes from first timothy chapter 6 verse 20. Where the apostle paul tells timothy? Oh timothy guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.

And so the apologetic dog is kind of like a guard dog mentality. We are guarding the truthfulness of the gospel that's been entrusted to us for all saints right to contend for. When he says avoid irreverent babble.

He is saying avoid beware of Worldly philosophy that rivals against the knowledge of god's word and his truth. These these philosophies are going to claim to be truth, right? They're going to claim to have secret knowledge.

And we expose contradictions we use the tools that god has given us like logic and we expose the the folly of these pagan philosophies and we hold to true knowledge. Um, the bible tells us that the fear of god is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.

And so you have to you have to actually let the god of truth reveal to us truth and knowledge from his word.

Yeah, which is awesome because that's essentially in a nutshell and correct me if i'm wrong. But that's essentially what apologetics is right? It's a defense. Absolutely.

Yeah, which is much needed. Yeah, it's a defense which is great because there's other scriptures. Um, first peter 3 15 that says Sanctify the lord in your hearts. Being ready to give a defense for these for the hope that lies within you with gentleness and respect.

And so that's kind of that defense but apologetics is also twofold. It's being able to provide a defense, but it's also going On the offense as well. It's contending for the truth. Um, that's exactly what.

Um jude verse uh one verse three tells us that we are to contend for the faith that has been once delivered to all all the saints. So it's kind of offensive and defensive.

Why Debates Can Be Done in Love

Yeah, and that's awesome. I mean that's that's a really really cool thing which.

That.

Entails a lot of debates which i'd like to get into as well because It's very interesting and you have so much knowledge about different doctrines. And uh, which we talked about that earlier.

But um.

Tell me a little bit about the debates.

Dude, everybody loves the debates or everybody has very strong polarizing opinions about debates. Um, Firstly I want to say that Something that the debates that I care about what it's not is it's not like the political debates that we've seen in the past with like Um hillary and donald trump just yelling at each other just hurling insults ugly stuff ugly stuff.

I try to tell people that's not the that's not Biblical debate and when I say biblical there's actually a time in the scripture where there was much debate. And it's very important and a lot of people will say why why engage with debates?

Doesn't that cause more harm than good isn't that more divisive than unifying? And so I try to help remind people Is that jesus said in the gospels that I did not come to bring peace on earth. But a sword to bring division with son and father mother and daughter.

And the point is if we're going to stand on truth in the gospel, it's actually going to divide from error. But it's going to unify those who are being saved. So it just it depends. We want to think biblically about these categories.

And so I don't want to do the worldly kind of debating. Right of the hurling of the insults, but I do want to do the biblical kind of debating. I believe it's ephesians 4 verse 15 where the apostle paul says that we must speak the truth.

In love.

So we hold firm to truth, right? That's going to divide from error. But if we speak in love, it's going to bring great wonderful unity. And so I want to share a biblical passage that actually talks about debate.

In acts 15, this is the birth of the early church. And then you had this heretical group called the judiazers. They were trying to corrupt the gospel. And with this is what we read in acts chapter 15.

Um, but some men came down from judia and were teaching the brothers they said this cruz. Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of moses. You cannot be saved. Now in effect what they're saying is okay.

We understand that jesus is the the mashiach the long prophesied Messiah to come that he came he died. He was buried. He's resurrected. But you still have to become a jew. You have to obey these mosaic laws.

You have to become a jew before you can become a christian. And so essentially what they were doing was adding the work of circumcision to the gospel now. Listen to this next verse. And after paul and barnabas had no small dissension.

They debated with them paul and barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. And so my point is there was no small dissension Amongst them about what the gospel is what it means to be saved before god almighty.

They debated these things. You know what their conclusion was.

Was.

Later in verse 11 of acts 15. But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of our lord jesus just as the gentiles will. So they concluded that it's we are saved by grace through faith apart from works right.

And my point is This is the apostolic witness that we have when we look to scripture. Debating. Is a wonderful thing if it's done in love and it's contending for the truthfulness of the gospel, right?

Because to believe a wrong gospel what happens. You'll be lost. Galatians 1 says if someone comes along and preaches a different gospel than what the apostles preached let him be accursed anathema. Right, let them go to hell believing their lie because we are holding firm to the truth.

But if we love people We would actually share with them the truth. We would try to help them in their folly and bring them out of them.

Right, which I think is is essentially I think that's the meat of it. And I think that's what people need to hold on to. Is that. Man, it's so important that that happens that the debate goes on because it is out of love and That's what we're put here to do.

You know, like I was thinking today I was thinking man. Um, I don't stress much anymore over what my purpose is here because I have one purpose. That's this pretty scarlet word. I mean and that's it and You know, you can fulfill that and your life is complete.

Yeah.

So.

And that goes right along with the debates as well because you know. It sounds like there may be a bit of a negative connotation around them.

Right, and i'd like to encourage uh your listeners. If you're interested in listening to some of these debates my primary platform for doing my apologetic dog Ministries is going to be on youtube so you can easily search the apologetic dog.

You can also search my name jeremiah nortier. And so it's all coming from youtube and then i'm hoping to Stretch that out to put it on different podcast platforms that you know things like that a different time.

But i've had the the honor of being able to do five debates within these last two years. Gosh, yeah five.

And they've got to be pretty strenuous stuff, too. I mean, it's got to be pretty intense. It's pretty intense.

Um, they're really long. Um, I tell people debates not for everyone just because that's kind of how I think.

Debates on Mormonism, Greek Orthodoxy, and Roman Catholicism

Um.

And hopefully we can get into this a little bit later. But i'm competitive in a way and I want to do it in such a way that is glorifying to god and I can show Love to other people but debates not for everybody.

Um, I also serve as a pastor at a new church plant here in jonesborough for the past 18 months. 12 5 church. Um, and not everyone's called to preach and be a pastor either, right? Some of us are called to be teachers for the flock.

And so what we're all called to do as christians is to share the gospel with other people and to make disciples. So i'm just saying there's different layers to this and God has just built me in such a way cruz where I can think in terms of debate structure back and forth dialogues rebuttals.

Um things like that and i'm still learning and growing.

Yeah, but that's so encouraging to to see you doing that, you know for the glory of god because I read the other night in My bible where it uh, it said that we were given different gifts and to live them out for the glory of god.

Which is.

It's an amazing thing, you know, because some of that stuff flies way over my head.

You know, dude, i'm right there with you in terms of ever ever learning and growing. And there's a lot of things that I still like. I love studying the mysteries of the trinity I rise for the rest of my life.

I will.

Continue to be ever growing in that. So with the debates. Um, it's been interesting because like I said, i've been doing it for about two years and i've received a lot of positive feedback from people that have Learned a lot and caused good.

Um. Questioning and and just further study and then i've also received the back side of that the people that disagree and a lot of Kind of hate for it. Yeah.

I was going to ask you what the feedback was like because I can see somebody getting their feelings hurt getting offended. And because it is the truth and the truth can be offensive.

So.

Have you ever seen any overwhelmingly work done within somebody's life. And then and they're just like Wow, you know. And then they kind of come to a realization.

That.

I've seen that time and time over again, and that's all to the praise of god's glory. Not my home. Yeah. But I can't begin to explain the type of mental strain and preparation for these debates that I go through.

It's way more intense than preparing to preach a sermon because in a sermon You are about you're going to be the only one talking and everybody's going to be looking at you, right? And you're just trying to rightly handle the word of god.

You know what I mean, and there's a lot of time and preparation that goes into that like your dad Has done that and knows that you know, I mean. But with debate you're doing that but also preparing for what they're going to say in terms of telling you how you're wrong.

Right. So there's a different level to that. My point is why would I keep doing that? There's a part of me that enjoys it, but there's so much i'm like lord I don't know if I can continue to do this on a consistent basis and keep my sanity.

And all my other responsibilities. But something that the lord shows me is all those people that you know, reach out to me and tell me how they appreciate somebody standing for the truth in the Context of opposition.

And so that's really encouraging. And I just I know that god has gifted me in ways that I I can do that. So as long as i'm doing it to glorify him. There's a sharpening process with myself that I love as well.

Like i'm a teacher at heart and a learner at heart and this is just one of those avenues to kind of Declare god's truth and I let him give the increase because i've had people say well. You're just getting up there and you're never going to change that person's mind and number one.

We don't know number two. I'm, really appealing to the audience. I'm wanting them to think about these deep issues.

And you know, it's such a cool thing. She said about Being a teacher but also a student because man that's so important for us to be. Held in both of those positions because we need to learn and then we need to be taught.

It's essential that we're always a student throughout our whole life, man. But I really I really appreciate you doing that because it does take some confidence and it does take um, A bit of courage to kind of step into those realms and say hey here it is.

You know.

Do you care if I tell your audience kind of the debates that i've done over the past two years maybe? Maybe to pique some interest here. Two years ago. I debated a mormon on. We titled the debate. Um Different world views so it was kind of a discussion and we had about six different topics within That whole dialogue and so it was a less formal debate with like, you know opening statements cross examinations.

It was just a topic in mind and then we were going to talk about it from different worldview perspectives and we could ask Each other anything under the sun. So I definitely encourage people if they want to hear um a christian.

Especially coming from a reformed baptist perspective engaging with a mormon. We talked about things like what the gospel is his version of the gospel How I understand the gospel. We had back and forth questions about that we talked about.

Obviously their the way I see it their religion is based on joseph smith and so I was talking about the alleged Miracles the failed miracles and prophecies that he had.

And.

And then I also talked about how they view how he came about Receiving these golden tablets from an angel the angel moroni. And galatians one tells us if someone comes and preaches a different gospel, which I would say gospel of works.

Even if it comes from an angel let him be anathema. So we got to talk about joseph smith in relation to galatians one. We talked about the sufficiency of scripture. Um, so we talked about a number of those topics that people might would benefit go and listen to that back and forth exchange.

So that was about two years ago. Um, my second debate was against a greek orthodox Individual. What is that?

So.

It's funny because I didn't really know their position much before. Um, so I actually do a lot of these debates at the gospel truth youtube channel with marlon wilson as the host. And so he he asked me to come back on the show to engage with a eastern greek orthodox individual.

And so when when you look at church history um in about the year thousand a .d There was a massive split in the church. You had the east and the west. The great schism in the west is what we know as the roman catholic church today.

And then the east is the eastern orthodox church. Okay, so they have a lot of similarities, but they have a lot of differences as well. And so we debated on is sola Is sola fide true or biblical meaning are we saved by faith alone?

Or are we saved by faith. Plus works essentially huge. Huge question, isn't it? It's huge. It's what doctrines pertain to each side.

Yeah, so we would be we would be protestants you know, like we are still in some ways Protesting against rome today. We believe that they preach a false gospel. They They preach a gospel of you gotta have faith in jesus.

Plus your baptism plus all these ongoing sacramental works that you can only have in the roman catholic church like doing penance confession a lot of indulgences. Indulgences play into that this it finds itself all the way back to the protestant reformation.

This was a big split with martin luther protesting against them and so as as protestants, we believe that we are justified our sins are No more applied to our account. We're no longer guilty of the penalty of sin by our faith.

Alone apart from our works in jesus christ. We're saying jesus christ works alone. Save us. Do you remember when jesus said it is finished on the cross yes to tell us die. We believe that that's true.

We believe that he did all the works necessary To atone for the wrath of god the father. Okay, and so we're saying you can't add your works to the already finished work of christ. That's why you have to look to him in saving faith.

And then a great exchange happens. This is this is the beautiful Message of the gospel when you look to jesus christ in saving faith you get his perfect righteousness his perfect obedience. Credited to your account a transaction happens.

So you get the perfect righteousness of jesus. And then all of your sin gets put back in time onto the cross of calvary. And so when god the father looks at you, he sees the righteousness of his son covering you.

Right. He doesn't see the dirty rotten sin of cruz anymore. But he sees the righteousness of jesus christ.

And so.

That's that's the beauty of the gospel of grace unmerited favor. God accomplished salvation at calvary. And so as protestants we're saying you can't look to your works. Right. That destroys this gospel of grace and it's not just what we're saying.

That's what romans chapter 3 says. Romans chapter 4 and ephesians 2 8 9 and 10 tell us that We are saved by grace through faith. This is a gift of god not a result of works.

Which it's an amazing thing because That is the gospel. You know that that that's it and it's such an overwhelming thing. Once you're given eyes to see it. Where do you think the opposition to that spurs from?

The idea that it is through works. Where do you think that's? Where did that originate from?

That's a really good question. Um. Because the bible actually tells us very clearly that man is not born good or neutral. Or innocent for that matter, but man is born in spiritual opposition to his creator.

Man hates the things of god. He's an enmity and so romans chapter 1 tells us that this state of man Suppresses the truth in unrighteousness meaning that they love their sin so much that they are going to try to drown out all of creation pointing back to the creator.

And even in their heart of hearts We've been made in such a way to bear god's image that We know that eternity exists and god dwells in eternity and that we're held accountable to him. And so this system of works.

Cruz literally you got christianity which stands alone as preaching a gospel of grace. And then literally all false religion of the world. They teach a system of works righteousness.

And so.

I'm, just saying it's the the age-old. Um, I don't like the truth. I love my sin. I want to feel good about myself. So i'm going to create a list of do's and don'ts that I have to do. In order to basically tell myself i'm going to be made right with god.

I'm going to feel really good about myself, right?

Because it's it's. Sounds like it's so. You know almost kind of like a watered down Self-idolization. Absolutely. And and that's what what I really think it holds on to it says giving credit to yourself, which I've heard more and more frequently in the past few days, it seems like and my eyes be maybe just being open to it, but it seems as if it's I was saved because I believe.

And because and and you know. That could be something that somebody could look at and say man, it's such a little thing. You're just nitpicking but in all reality I'm, not sure that that is just that it that's too much.

Because it was not our work. It was his. And that is the gospel.

The Sovereignty of God in Salvation and Human Pride

Yeah, no, that's a really good point because what we would want to ask the question is okay. Why did you believe? Exactly. Was it because you were smarter than the next guy? Were you more spiritual than your sibling that you grew up with that also or now, you know hates the Lord.

We would say no none of those things. You can look to yourself and think wow. I came to this realization on my own. We're saying you chose God because he first chose you right. And that concept right there I can tell I can tell you so much.

Cruz gets either a lot of people mad or they don't want to think about it. And i'm saying. What this is meant to do is to show you the sovereignty of God. And that literally this creation is for his glory.

And if you've experienced that grace and that mercy those things that you did not deserve that coming to this. You know realization of who Christ is and your sinfulness and your need for him. It changes your life 100.

I've had people say well, it doesn't really matter these types of doctrine. I'm, like it matters enough that God will reveal it to us in his word. And I promise it'll change how you literally see everything.

How did it change for you.

So.

Very slowly and gradually I grew up at a church Where I could tell and I believed that this church that I grew up at preached the right gospel that it's by faith Alone apart from any works that we do and then we all look to Jesus.

But not a lot of depth of discipleship and sound doctrine and digging deep. And growing up I started having some of these questions studying the book of romans and I wasn't getting really any help from the pastors, you know, and so I started to learn these things on my own.

Very blessed in the age of technology and had some key people in my life to really help me Study these things. But I started Having these questions about who God is right.

And.

Just to be totally honest, you know growing up in a baptist church one thing that a lot of baptists are told is once saved always saved. Once saved always saved. If you Walked that hour or prayed that prayer then you're good.

And I always knew something wasn't quite right with just the simple once saved always saved like I knew. It's more than just a decision. You know what? I mean? It's deeper. It's faith. It's a heart that loves christ.

Right, right, but I believed okay. If you're truly saved then God will keep you, right? I just I remember thinking that and then once I started studying the sovereignty of God. And the work that he begins in you literally ephesians 1 6 tells us he who begins.

That work in you is faithful to bring it to completion. And I thought oh, that's why I can't lose my salvation. This is a work of God that he is accomplishing in my life from beginning to end. I think it's hebrews 12 verse 2 but refers to jesus as the author and finisher of our faith.

So it's those truths that began to be a game changer because I think you can have assurance of your salvation. First john 5 13 says and you can know that you have eternal life. I believe you can only know that if when you look at your heart and your life.

You see the work of god in you if you love the biblical jesus. You can know that that. That love comes from somewhere outside of this world.

Yeah, it's supernatural. You can tell. Because it's it's not it's not anything of natural desire. And it's completely deflating to your self-image. And that's another thing too is that I feel like a lot of these Oppositions to this particular doctrine.

It it's rooted in the pride and you can see it through the motive. Yeah. And I didn't mean to cut you off. No, no, but that came to me because uh. Because it makes sense man. That's our natural desires to be prideful in that way.

But you know one thing I wanted to ask you in particular was that you know. Knowing you if anybody knows you. They they will know how much of a hunger you have to learn. And to how much glorification you give to god and it's amazing man.

It's it's honestly it's amazing and you've helped me so much.

But.

Where do you think that spurred from. I mean?

Because.

It doesn't resonate with Every person that you say i'm a believer. It doesn't resonate with every believer. Do you think we're given different hungers?

Hunger for God's Word, Seminary, and Ministry

Yes, um. Yeah, well I can tell you in my own personal life. Um really neat because I remember. Basically where it began that hunger for god's word. I was actually 21. I was actually 20 just about to turn 21.

I went through basically the the first and only breakup that i've ever had back in college. And I remember my world just being turned upside down. And you know all my future endeavors plans were just kind of crumbling.

It just was no more and I remember I was a sophomore in college, which. You're just about to be done. Yep. Yes. So it just it's great getting to talk with you because that. Your age is when god really started to mold my life.

Um at that age. So I didn't know a lot of the scripture. When I was 2021. But I knew that I had not been walking with christ the way that he had called me to. And so i'm not kidding cruz like in my dorm room.

I remember crying out to god basically just saying okay I'm i'm ready to start living the way that you want me to. Yeah. And I know it has to begin in your word. So I did something radical. I don't necessarily, you know encourage everybody to do this, but I memorized the whole book of james, which was 100.

I think it was 108 verses.

Um, how long did that take you?

I was on a very slow like every a week at a time. I was learning four verses right four verses at a time, so I think it it took Many months but with enough repetition. And a drive to do it. And my point is I was memorizing verses and I didn't really know the meaning or depth yet.

But I knew I had to be searching. I had to be searching after god in his word. Right, right. Yeah.

Because it that's insane though. I mean, how did you know that you did memorize it? Could you recite it? Did you see it?

Oh my gosh, man, that is crazy. I knew it so well and I remember I used I don't know it. Now like I did back then but it was in the new king james translation and a few years ago I switched to studying and preaching out of the esv.

So occasionally when i'm quoting something it'll come out in new king james.

But.

Repetition.

I had mp3s Of the whole book of james and I remember I would have verses on a loop on my phone as I'd go to sleep Reciting it so it did not come easy. It took a lot of hard work, but I wanted it. Yeah.

Yeah, and I'll tell you what I think. John piper john mcarthur a lot of these men were very influential in my life. But something john piper said. He said To invest time in a relationship with the lord as you pray to god.

That's you talking with him and he speaks back to you through his word. And when you memorize god's word you can talk to him wherever you go. I took that to heart in a big way. And I just thought I want to be able to talk with god and know what his will is for my life.

Wherever I go, so I started approaching the word of god like that I'm, not just ink on a page. But the living breathing words of god. And that changes the way you approach scripture. When you look at it as living and breathing and active and sharper than any double-edged sword.

When you look at this as this is a way for me to have relationship with the creator.

Like that changes things. Yeah, and it's overwhelming isn't it? It's so humbling because you're like who am I? To have that I mean, that's an amazing thing man. I mean that could bring you to tears. You're like there's so much grace there I mean, it's just so much grace and it's just Like it, you know, I was telling dad this a while back.

I was telling him that it's. It's so overwhelming. I have a hard time describing it. It's like I can't find the words To describe it. I'm at a loss of words for him.

But.

Like you were saying.

Yeah, so, um, that was just kind of the beginning stages of that hunger and to be perfect honest Cruz. It's really not died down ever since then. No, it doesn't look like it. Well, that's like you've been saying all by the grace of god I'll be 30 in a couple weeks.

So i'm feeling my age there a little bit. Is that crazy to you. Yeah, it is. Leaving the 20s doesn't seem right. I still feel about 22 23 like that's how I feel so knowing that i'm about you know, almost 10 years down the road from that i'm like.

Reality check. Is it true that it goes by quicker as you gain?

It becomes so unreal how how fast time flies by. Yeah. That is that is true. That's cliche, but it's it's also true. It's kind of crazy though. You got to seize the day man.

Exactly. Yeah.

Um, so I remember that and so I was still in college and you just talk about. Almost an awakening of like, okay lord I I really want to live for you. Like I believe I was saved since I was 14, but there wasn't hardly any spiritual growth since I was turned 21.

And so.

I end up marrying my wife. Obviously, there was a whole dating period and whatnot, but Um as we were dating I told her I I think i'm feeling the call to ministry. Because I was that guy in like a finance class in the back not really paying attention and studying my bible.

Like I just found myself, you know, some of those signs right and cruz you're gonna laugh this but I hated public speaking. Hey, I remember praying saying lord.

I do not want to public speak. I think I remember you telling me that though a while back. I do. I think I remember you telling me about that because you had. Didn't you have one public Speech that you did and like it kind of nerve-wracked you didn't it?

Oh, yeah.

Um, I i'm actually a major in communications and so I did a lot of public speaking only to realize that I hated it. But I love the people of god and I love studying his word. And I love teaching kind of like one-on-one setting right here, right?

And I realized very quickly op you you got to be willing to expand outside of just one-on-one even though that's awesome. I'll tell you another thing that started helping me tear down those barriers is realizing my anxiety to speak with people I don't know and and just I think pride like you were talking about earlier.

Yeah, I noticed I'm called to share the gospel with people as i'm going. And there's no time to get to be so self-focused on my image and my pride. I just need to be faithful and obedient to what god has called me.

That's a really really good perspective, man. That's a really good perspective and humbling as well because Once you put it like that you put god first and then yourself on the back burner, which is the whole purpose of delivering a sermon.