Computer Problems and Some Lighthearted Fun

Casting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602, or toll free across the

United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. And good morning, good afternoon, whatever time it is for you, welcome to The Dividing Line.

We just barely made it today. I'm very thankful for our very tenuous backup solution of online instant fix stuff that we have set up.

We tried to start the pre -feed, it wasn't working, and so you go and channel and you ask someone in Canada to see if the fellow who runs the server in Nova Scotia is online on another service, and you get a message through that way.

Red alert! Red alert! Red alert! Shields up! Did CBS start this way? That's just, that's hilarious,

I tell you. But Pete to the rescue! The famous Nova Scotian, who is a superhero in his own mind, came flying.

I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to lie. Oh man, we need to have Angel draw a picture of Pete as a superhero server fixer guy or something like that, because that's the only reason that you're hearing my sonorous tones this morning, is because Pete came to the rescue, and we can't guarantee that it's going to continue working, however, because it could stop right now, for all we know.

But hey, you know, that's how we do stuff around here. Excuse me, people wonder why we don't do a lot of money begging and stuff, and it's not because we're rich or anything, it's just because this is sort of how we do things.

It's funny. Anyway, before the program began, I was playing some music, well, some stuff, and I thought, you know what, we normally do so much really serious stuff around here, that I'd like to spend a few minutes at the beginning of the program today doing something a little fun.

It's been a long time since I played on the air. We have played them on the air in the past, it's just been a while since we did so.

So, the tunes of my good friend Chris Arnzen.

A number of years ago, I would say, what was this, about six years ago now,

I think, he and I were at a youth retreat, and they would have a talent show, and of course you had to come up with skits and things like that.

Chris Arnzen is a comic genius. That is the only way to describe

Chris. Really, if he was in the secular field, he'd be in Vegas, he'd be on Letterman and Leno.

The guy is just absolutely, positively hilarious, and some of you have seen some of his comedy routines at the beginning of the

Great Debate series in Long Island. So for that particular talent show, he and I, first we did a song, and I have it, but I'm not going to play it.

He and I did a song, a very short little song about eschatology, which we'll never see the light of day.

But anyway, then I sat down, and lo and behold, he had two songs to sing, and we just about died.

He takes these old songs, these old tunes, he goes and gets the karaoke tapes, and then he writes new words.

What he did later on, since we just, everybody was begging to have those songs, is a few weeks later, he recorded them in a radio studio and mixed them together.

And so if you've got Total Recorder or something, and you want to, yeah, the reformed

Paul Shanklin, that's a good way of putting it. If you want to record it or something, you better fire up Total Recorder, because I'm going to play for you what

Chris produced. He starts off with an introduction, and then he provides these two wonderful songs.

So what I'll do is I'll play those two with the introductions, and then I'll play the actual recording of the first time he performed one of the two, and you can hear what it did to all of us.

It's just absolutely hilarious. So something unusual on the dividing line today. Here is, oh, and Chris named himself, he called himself

Party Hardy Marty Luther and the Protestors. So that's what's on the tape or the

CD that he sent to me, is Party Hardy Marty Luther and the Protestors. And so here's Party Hardy Marty Luther and the

Protestors, and you can figure out the rest of it from here. During the 16th century, the

Church of Rome reached its height of power as well as its depths of debauchery, greed, and corruption.

One of the most vile and greedy puppets of the papal throne was a member of the

Dominican Holy Order named Johann Tetzel. Tetzel sold indulgences to the spiritually ignorant and enslaved laity, warning them that this was a necessary means to purchase the souls of their deceased loved ones out from the torments of purgatory.

A limerick became popular in that day's advent when a coin in Tetzel's kaffa rings a soul from purgatory springs.

This abuse of papal power through pilfering the poor, pious, and peasant people did not go unnoticed by a young German Augustinian monk who was once one of Rome's most faithful and loyal subjects.

Outraged by the level of greed and wickedness that the Church sank to, this monk nailed his protest to the practice of indulgence -selling to the door of the castle church in Wittenberg, hoping to spark a debate with the intelligentsia of Rome.

The hammer blows as these ninety -five feces were nailed to the church door were like cannon fire heard round the world and ignited the blaze of a holy inferno that is still burning brightly today.

This holy inferno is the Protestant Reformation. That Augustinian monk who ignited it was me.

Hello, I'm Martin Luther, and this is my story. Oh yeah,

I'm the Great Reformer. Reforming the churches that I'm known for.

I made my... Oh yeah, reforming the church was my pope threw me out.

Great Reformer, great reformer.

I turned Texas church on. Slice me and dice me and feed me to the papal palace puppy dogs, but I'll bet you that in the 21st century that I'm...

Here's one for the big man in the big hat, in the big chair, in Rome, the pope.

I desiccate this to him. You don't own me.

You push me around like you're papal punk. You don't own... I'm no longer one of your fear -filled monks.

Hello, there we go. Little delay there through the network as we communicate.

We need to do a direct connection type of thing sometime, something like that. So then, like I said, that was what he did in the radio studio.

But when it was done live, it was a little different.

And because the... Chris is a big guy, okay? And he can do facial expressions like you just wouldn't believe.

And so here he is with a boom box. And he's written all these words out on this yellow notepad.

And you've got... Already people are laughing because we've been doing funny things. And people on the channel have been saying, hey, you need to play the one that you and Chris did.

And since I have complete control of what I play, no. But we had just done that.

So everybody's already tackling as it is. And so this was actually the second song we just heard.

But here's what it sounded like when it was... You know the studio versions versus the live versions?

There's always a big difference between the two. Here is the live version of You Don't Own Me.

This is from Tuscarora Conference Center in Pennsylvania. Like I said, I think this was about 1999, maybe 1998.

Somewhere around in there. I forget which one it is. And here's how it sounded when it was first performed.

This is a song that I wrote. It's dedicated to Paul himself,

I think. You don't own me.

Ah, yes. Fun at Tuscarora. That was... Somebody on the channel was saying, yeah, it's too bad there aren't more

Reform Baptists with a sense of humor. Now please, please, please, do not flood us with requests.

We've already had our one... Oh! Man!

Okay, well I am saving a comment I saw on the channel and sending it to Chris. And that will be the last time that person ever gets to talk with Chris Ironson.

Because that's all there is to it. Anyway. There's Party Hardy, Marty Luther and the

Protestors from Tuscarora, 1998 -1999. Somewhere around in there.

I don't remember exactly which one it was. No, my song with Chris was not nearly as good as his was.

Because we didn't have a background track. He had spent a lot of time on those. And in fact,

I just realized, he told me he wrote those one night while I was preaching. And, but he wasn't there.

Because it had been snowing. That's that stuff that falls out of the sky. I live in Phoenix and I have to explain that to people. But it had been snowing and he couldn't get to where I was going to be speaking.

And so he didn't make it. And so he spent the night writing those two songs.

And that's lots of fun. 877 -753 -3341.

For those of you sitting there going, I can't believe that I tuned in to listen to this. But, hey.

You know what? We'll actually get complaints. We really will. We will get complaints about the fact that we did something funny.

Just like we get complaints when Angel draws a cartoon. And if you want to complain, all

I can say is get a sense of humor. You will live longer.

And sunsets will be prettier. And sunrises will be prettier. And life will be...

Your face will not crack if you smile. Really, honestly, it won't. Some of you seem to think that it will. If you smile, there's something unbiblical about smiling, you know.

There's people like that. So, anyway. 877 -753 -3341.

Believe it or not, despite my best efforts, we actually have phone callers.

Are these folks listening? I mean, you know. Yes, I want to be the first phone caller immediately after Marty Hardy, Marty Luther, and the protesters.

The transition here is going to be difficult, but I am your professional broadcast professional.

Professional broadcast professional. And we will make the transition successfully.

I will simply have to ask Charles up in Utah to work with me here,

Charles. We need to work together to make this... Do you sing or dance or anything, Charles? Don't tell me what...

Oh, I'm sorry. I was caught up, really. It's hard not to be, isn't it?

I was swept away. In fact, I'm urinating blood right now. Oh, no.

That's probably more than you wanted to know. It was. It was much more than I wanted to know, completely. Actually, good old

Chris has... I've got to tell... I don't know if you've ever heard it. Is it on the...

Hey, Rich, is Chris's introduction to the first debate on the tape...

I don't remember, because that was before we started doing them. But the first debate we did on Long Island, we have 500 people in this ballroom.

And you've got Catholics and you've got Protestants. And you can... It's really charged atmosphere.

And you can sort of tell that things were... I don't know. It's the first time we'd ever done this. And everybody...

I was a little bit worried. Chris was really worried. So he gets up there. And we're starting half an hour late. And he's talking about how so many people had opposed what we were doing and all this stuff.

And so finally, he says, in fact, let me read you an example of just how much people have opposed what we're doing.

And he starts into this letter. And I'm going to tell you, this letter was talking about how

I hope that you spiritual Neanderthals crawl back into the caves from which you crawled out of.

You're bringing dissension. And it just ripped and shredded.

And I was... Everybody in the audience is just sitting there with their mouths hanging open and their eyes wide.

I can remember exactly what it was. And he gets to the second page. And it says something about how the world will be better when people like you are simply wiped off the face, the earth, and all the rest of this stuff.

And then he says, and P .S., please pick up a gallon of milk on your way home. Signed, your wife.

And there was silence. And then the place absolutely fell apart.

Just erupted in laughter when we realized this was actually one big, long, huge joke.

And he got us all. Nobody saw it coming. Everybody was blindsided. And it sort of helped because it sort of got rid of some of the tension beforehand a little bit.

Because you could just tell there was a lot of it. So now most people come. They don't come to listen to the debates anymore.

They just come for Chris's dialogue. So anyway, that's the story of how that all started.

But that's not why you're calling, is it? Well, I do have an idea since you just said that. What's that? Maybe the next time you're in a hostile

Catholic environment in the East, just let him break out that song on the crowd.

Yeah. See how that goes. You know, we've pondered that.

We thought about that. And we sort of decided against it. Yeah. Well, yeah, he did take some liberties.

I mean, the text seems to come directly from Bondage of the Will, from what I can tell. But I think the translation was very loose.

It was very loose, but he wasn't quite as nasty to be pronounced with you as Luther was a number of times.

So anyway, I think we've transitioned well enough. No one remembers what we were talking about. Good. Good. Okay, well,

I want to ask you something about this. Something I read on your site. Yes. That I don't think most people know about.

Yes. I was oblivious to it. Until one person I know suddenly spiraled headlong into it.

And, of course, that is the Mark Carpenter cult. Mark Carpenter cult.

However many of them there might be. And there can't be many. I really honestly can't imagine that they would get a very large hall of their all to visit together.

I mean, there's, you know, narrow is the way, and then there's narrow is the way. Tightrope is the way.

I mean, and really, you know, we make a lot of jokes about it, but it's really sad.

It is. Because for those few people who are, I mean, at least

I'm judging by this one guy, who are such usually clear thinking,

I mean, solid -minded people who have read all the good stuff, and in a sense, he likes them.

He likes people who have prepared their mind, who have been trained already on Calvin, and the whole tradition, and Edwards, and this was the kind of guy who read all that stuff.

He ate it up. He loved it, and he was very, very committed to the purity of the message, and was an evangelist, by the way, a personal evangelist.

I mean, very bold and outspoken, but not hyperish in that sense, because he really, I mean, led people to Christ.

Then along, then the deeper he goes, suddenly he finds himself face -to -face with the

Carpenterian extreme, and as you pointed out, you know,

Carpenter condemns pretty much everybody but himself. Yeah, just about. I don't know who makes it. Well, I guess over a period of about six months, this guy was just taken in, and now to talk with him, obviously,

I mean, completely frustrating, but to talk with him is to talk with Carpenter, because everything on Carpenter's website, this guy parrots exactly all of the seven points, you know, that you mentioned, the extra two.

This guy now believes he was never truly a believer until he understood Carpenter's view.

Even all those years he spent evangelizing people, reading Calvin, knowing, you know,

I mean, reading all of Spurgeon's and Whitfield's sermons and everything, didn't matter.

He was lost. He didn't know the true gospel, and because, at that point, he supposed that there were some people who were, you know, what they call universal atonement advocates, he supposed at that time that some of those people might actually be saved.

Therefore, he was lost. And he's even told people that he led to Christ, that they, oops, you're unregenerate.

Oh my. It's really sick. Oh my. Well, for those, I should have mentioned this earlier, but for those who don't keep up with the blog,

I didn't receive it, but in fact, interestingly enough, it was Chris Arnzen who received this and sent it to me.

Chris Arnzen received an email from Mark Carpenter. He is the originator, the person running outsidethecamp .org,

I believe is the URL. And he is a very, very well -known hyper -Calvinist.

He is one of those folks, and his brand of hyper -Calvinism is primarily marked by the idea that if you believe that a, quote -unquote,

Armenian, and that's a very broad utilization, that's a very broad term for him, if you believe a person who does not believe in particular redemption, specifically believe in particular redemption, can be saved, then you yourself are not saved.

I mean, it's not just, the email basically said that the debate between myself and Bill Rutland on the subject of can a non -Christian enter into heaven is actually going to be a debate between two non -Christians.

That is, Bill Rutland and myself. I am not a Christian, even though I hold to all five points of Calvinism.

And we're getting an odd tone between us here.

Charles, let me just mention this real quickly and we'll get back to your question because it may indicate that we're going to lose your phone line,

I'm not sure. Anyway, he's saying that I'm not a believer because of this, and I responded on the blog, if you don't follow that, you might want to take a look at it.

I really, really, really dislike hyper -Calvinism. I dislike having to respond to the constant accusation that anyone who is a

Calvinist at all is a hyper -Calvinist. That is the standard argumentation that is utilized by people.

But I detest it because here are people who should know better. I mean, you're telling me this fellow was very, very well -read.

He must have heard warnings about this stuff. He had read balanced material on it.

And yet, they go off into this stuff, and it really leaves you wondering what was missing in the foundation at the start that would lead to that.

Yeah, it's really sad because you're exactly right, it was a shocker. For a lot of people, it was stunning that somebody could be taken in, and I think that's why there is a kind of, you know,

I know maybe the word is overused and it would really tick people off, but there is a cultic power here that sort of draws a person in and he likes to use these really lame syllogisms.

You know, you believe that you've seen these, right? Well, Carpenter Included won his letter.

A really lame syllogism there where well, if this is part of the gospel, and this person doesn't believe this, therefore and it's never overly lengthy it's nice and short and straight to the point and black and white.

Exactly, and of course, you know, this guy that's his response to everybody and, you know, that tight circle that sort of idea only a few of us really get it this guy's actually contemplated moving out

Carpenter's actually told this guy to disassociate with his family disassociate with everybody and possibly have suggested him to move out to where he and his family live in Vermont that sort of even has a strange wilderness compound feel to it you know, you may actually know something about this because because I know that you are

I know that you know you know, the guy out here at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church is

Wallace Jaywall is what we call him, actually the Jaywall and he he's familiar with the situation oh,

I see, okay he knows this particular guy and it's sad in Utah I mean, we need all the solid people here's a guy who was an evangelist to Mormons in fact, he was a plague to Mormons because he was so relentless and, you know, had such razor sharp, you know debating skills with them almost to a fault, you know, sometimes people saw him come and they just ran, you know they didn't want to tangle with him but now, he's almost given up you see, it's obvious by the fruit of it he no longer evangelizes

I mean, not a bit unless you want to count standing kind of behind a safe wall and lobbying condemnation at fellow

Christians including his own family, his own flesh and blood so, I don't know, I just appreciated that you put that on there because I thought, who is this guy?

nobody seems to talk about this and I think through your site and talking about it we gotta let people know and really call this thing what it is it's just completely it's totally jacked up well, you know, it's funny

I had someone comment to me that they had never ever heard of hyper -Calvinism and had never met a hyper -Calvinist and didn't think they actually existed and I'm like, well, okay let's be honest they are not the largest group on the planet but in reality they are there and they unfortunately cause problems to those of us who are seeking to properly present a balanced view of the doctrines of grace so, thank you very much for your call, sir and for helping me,

Charles, to transition out of the Chris Arnzen music and we're going to go ahead and take our break a little bit late, but come back and have a post -modern emergent church commentary to read, and then maybe if we don't get any more phone calls, we'll be looking for some more of the

Patterson sermon all depends, 877 -753 -3341 be right back music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music

March. Now, please remember something. This is one of those horrible months where your bills come early and you have less time to pay for them, you know?

I mean, you know, let's at least try to be fair and note that I think we had to just change the whole calendar and make every month the same amount.

But, be as it may, that means, if I'm counting correctly, six days, including today.

That's not a lot of time. And, therefore, we really, really, really, really, really, really need to get everybody who's been thinking about it on board

ASAP because, I guess, our ship is filling up quickly.

And, unlike some of our past situations where we were able to, you know, squeeze folks in and things like that, there's going to be limits on this trip as to what we're going to be able to do and how many people we can squeeze in and the rates and all the rest of that stuff.

And, so, if you've been thinking about it, now is the time to get it taken care of.

Just, yeah, we have the only cabins left. The rest of the ship is sold out.

So, it's an incredibly popular cruise, beautiful itinerary.

And, so, if you get on the ship, you got to go through us. So, in the next six days, before the prices go up, up, up.

So, that's what's going on. And, you need to remember, when you think about Alaska, okay, you never say it the same way.

Yeah, you need to say, Alaska. We'll never say it again the same way.

Never the same again. No, you can't say it fast either. You have to say it slow and with a lot of breath, real breathy.

Alaska. That's all I had.

And, we love Mike, too. And, he talks to you more than he talks to me, so you're going to pay for this.

Yeah, I know. You have to admit, it's probably the only cruise commercial you've ever heard,

Alaska. And, you feel like you're going to get to go sunning on the beach. I want to be a mouse in the corner when your cell phone goes off.

I'm so dead. Oh, you are so dead. You are a historical novelty, a historical artifact right there.

Just never forget. Did you see what Centurion just said? Alaska. That was almost identical. I can't do it.

I just can't do it. Alaska. I would have to have a little cuddly teddy bear in front of me named Alaska to be able to do it that way.

That's the only way I could do it, and I don't have one. So, it just doesn't work for me, you know. But, it's going to be a fantastic cruise, man.

It is. Don't forget that. Except, if you come up with missing, we know who to look for.

Today, in the Gulf of Alaska, Michael Fallon was found in a lifeboat trying to get away from the ship after Rich Pierce went missing.

Yes, indeed. And, you bail out there. Thanks a lot.

It's just one of those days. It's a beautiful day here. It must be what it is. We Phoenicians aren't used to this amount of oxygen in the air, because normally, this time of year, the air just gets horrible.

It gets real stagnant. We get this inversion layer thing, and we look like he's on the phone. We get this inversion layer thing, and you can't see, you know, for a mile or anything like that.

But, we have gotten so much rain that it is absolutely unbelievable.

The air is clean and clear. What? He wants to go out in the air now? Does he want to defend himself? Is that what it is?

Is that what this is all about? So, this is actually a call, huh? It's Mike from Florida.

Now, I'm going to bring a little bit of marketing to the table. You get a I mean, what are you going to do?

We love you, Mike, really. I never would have done that, honestly. I could not resist.

Until Rich opened the door, I had thought of it. That's the voice that I use to get croissant and bourgogne.

Hey, guys. This is going to be a sweet debate.

Did they teach that to you? Where did you go? FSU? No, the

University of Florida, but that's mainly from my Catholic upbringing. Oh, I thought it was maybe some of the voice training that you received there.

No, that was usually the voice training that we received when we were in auricular confession. Okay, guys.

Well, we've pretty well blown this one right out of the water, what do you think? In fact, I think Pete's probably sitting there going,

I shouldn't have fixed that service. Hey, Mike, is there anything else you wanted to say about this before the cruise?

Rich and James, we're not kidding. The ship is completely sold out except for our cruise cabins that we have.

So the only way you can book on the cruise right now is to go through Alpha and Omega Ministries.

So if you wanted to go on this ship during that time, that's the way to get on. And you've got to think about that this is not just Alaska, but you're getting all the apologetics as well as the debate on the ship, which is something that a lot of people are looking forward to.

I've been telling folks about it, but you know how people are, they're procrastinators. This pretty much means that we have,

I think, basically 53 cabins left and that's it. Wow. So as soon as those are sold, we're done.

Well, you'll put together a list for the inevitable cancellations, but that's putting your entire thing on the basis of somebody else allowing you to go, basically.

Correct. And I mean, we can always bump you off or Rich or whatever. Oh, well, yeah, sure. I'd like to know exactly what do you mean by bump off?

I'm just kidding. Okay, let's do something oddly strange, like something serious here for a second.

I have this little RSS reader program and one of the blogs that I sort of monitor is an emergent church blog.

And I was reading a new post.

One of the problems with this RSS reader is it'll frequently pick up old posts as if they're new.

That's the only drawback I've found to it so far. But it's free and that's a good thing.

But this is from Bob Robinson. And it was posted this morning about two hours ago.

So we are actually right up to the right up to the moment here. Apologetics and theology both need to change is the topic.

Apologetics is the ready defense that we need to be prepared to give anyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you with gentleness and respect.

In the past 100 years, this has taken the form of using reason and philosophy and argument to try to help people with modern enlightenment sensibilities to get past their mental stumbling blocks on their way to meeting

Jesus Christ. I think since we are entering a postmodern age that such techniques need to be replaced with a more embodied apologetic displayed in the way we live and love and worship.

Theology is our in -house debates, discussions about things we are trying to understand the

Bible. Things like the nature of God, the end times, Calvinism versus Arminianism, the meaning of the atonement.

These are not concerns of those outside the faith. They're concerns of those already in. It is a noble pursuit to seek to more purely understand

God, which is what theology is supposed to be. So here's what needs to change. Our apologetics needs to change from a purely reasoned argument, though we cannot ditch reason and become unthinking, toward an embodied incarnational apologetic.

We still need to know how to answer people's questions, but before that we need to show them that God is real and that living in Christ's kingdom is a superior life that is attractive to the outsider.

And our theology needs to change as well from purely academic exercise, though we must always love

God with our minds, toward an embodied incarnational theology that takes those intellectual concepts and immediately applies them to the way we live in the kingdom of God.

Theology needs to be moved down from the ivory tower and put on the streets. Theology needs to be figured out not in isolation by individual scholars but in community.

Now, you might be thinking you've heard a lot of that recently.

And I hear a lot of people repeating these things endlessly in various contexts. There's no two ways about it.

But there was just so much in that that completely goes against everything that I have ever said.

And why is it that emergent church postmodernists have to so poorly represent what they're seeking to differentiate themselves from?

Isn't your position unique enough that you can actually accurately represent those of us who are not postmodernists who do not believe emergent church stuff is biblical or proper or that we should embrace postmodernism or should do anything other than call people to live the way

God created them to live and postmodernism is a worldview that's opposed the image of God created with us.

Why not accurately represent what those of us who don't go that direction say?

Isn't your position significantly unique enough to differentiate itself without the misrepresentation?

I mean, for example, in the past 100 years, apologetics has taken the form of using reason and philosophy and argument to try to help people with modern enlightenment sensibilities get past their mental stumbling blocks in a way to meet

Jesus Christ. Well, maybe there's an element of apologetics that's there, but it's far broader than that and it's not just modern enlightenment sensibilities.

Apologetics involves responding to the attacks of false teachers. Apologetics is found in almost every single book of the

New Testament. It's not just simply been geared toward one particular way of thinking.

In fact, since it's biblical, it's always opposed to whatever the prevailing mood of the world is.

I mean, when truth wasn't something that was, when we didn't believe that truth could be something that's really known, apologetics was against that.

Apologetics was against the idea that man could figure out all things because we have to be based upon revelation.

We are dependent upon revelation, etc., etc., etc. So that just doesn't follow. But notice the descriptions.

Theology is said to be our in -house debates and discussions. Wow. How about that which

God has revealed about himself? How about that which is derived from a

God -honoring reading of the God -inspired scriptures? What is,

I don't understand this, just in -house debates and discussions? That has got to be the worst description

I've ever heard of theology. I mean, it defines that as nature of God.

Is that just an in -house debate? The End Times? Okay, I'd put that one in the in -house debate.

Calvinism versus Arminianism, the meaning of the Atonement? These things cannot be determined. These are not concerns of those outside the faith, that's for sure.

They are concerns of those already in. It is a noble pursuit to seek to more purely understand

God, which is what theology is supposed to be. Well, to more purely understand, there isn't a theological foundation that every

Christian shares together. I would think that there would be. That's why I don't find this description to be overly useful.

But that's especially the description here of what needs to change. Our apologetics needs to change from a purely reasoned argument, though we cannot ditch reason to become unthinking, toward an embodied incarnational apologetic.

We still need to know how to answer people's questions, but before that, we need to show them that God is real, and that living in Christ's kingdom is a superior life that is attractive to the outsider.

Is this really meant to be seriously suggesting that those who have practiced apologetics prior to postmodernism and the emergent church believe that apologetics is merely the giving of answers that is completely and totally disconnected from how you live your life?

I have a presentation on Mormonism that I've done in churches for coming up fairly soon on two decades, at least 15 years.

And right in there is a discussion of how we have to live a life that is consonant, consistent with the apologetic that we offer to Mormonism.

That loving God and living in holiness and living under the lordship of Christ, this is all part and parcel of how we respond to Mormons.

Now how did I do that when I'm not an emergent church guy? This is not what apologetics ever was.

Now there may be somebody out there, I can see that some person off in some odd place who thinks that's all apologetics is, and that's all their life is about.

Okay, but is that actually meant to define what apologetics has been for all of us?

Let's remember, to be apologetically minded, to be able to give an answer, that's not really what all Christians are supposed to do in 1

Peter 3 .15, that's one of the requirements of the eldership. Is that what all the elders have been doing? Is this disconnectedness between a life that shows them

God's real? Now of course, automatically, I would say excuse me, but there's a problem with this entire definition as well when it says that God is real and that living in Christ's kingdom is a superior life that is attractive to the outsider.

No, sir. No, sir, I'm sorry. It's not attractive to the outsider. That's one of the biggest problems here.

Jesus called the crowds and his disciples to himself and said if you want to follow me, you take up your cross and you join the death march.

You die daily. You deny self. That is not attractive to the outsider.

If by outsider we mean someone who remains outside of Jesus Christ, only the person who's had that heart of stone taken out and a heart of flesh put in, something that Norman Geisler mocked in Chosen but Free as a brain transplant, only that person is going to be the type of person who is going to find living in Christ's kingdom, which involves taking up the cross and denying self and living by a completely different standard than the world would have us live by, is going to find that attractive.

So, two problems. A, it's a misrepresentation of apologetics prior to emergent church to say that it's just simply a purely reasoned argument.

That's not ever been the case. And no one who is a reformed apologist could ever believe that that's what apologetics is about.

That's the first thing. Secondly, you don't make dying attractive to a dead man who doesn't know why he needs to die.

You don't make the faith attractive to people and then they slowly come and meet

Jesus. That's, I'm sorry, not the biblical view. I blogged late last night the section from John chapter 8,

John chapter 9 and the blind man and the fact that Jesus said,

I came into this world for judgment that those who are blind might see and those who think they see might become blind.

Those are not post -modernist concepts. Those are not pomo words. Those are not emergent words.

That's not what Jesus came for. Then theology. Theology needs change from a purely academic exercise.

Oh, I just, you know, I know other folks who constantly make the accusation that that's where I am, that's where we are, that's where the old, purely academic exercise.

There's no passion, there's no heart, it doesn't touch your life. Theology is as dry as studying the internal networking connections of a

IRC network. You just sit down with some documents and this is connected to that and this command does that and that's all theology is and you can just put it aside and go do something else.

It doesn't impact your entire life. It's baloney. Who really believes that?

Have there been people who've lived that way? Yeah, but if you ask them if they believe that, they wouldn't even say they believe that.

Even they recognize the imbalance of such a thing. So theology needs change as well from a purely academic exercise toward an embodied incarnational theology.

What does that mean? Have you read B .B. Warfield? I mean, there would be a perfect example.

There would be somebody, people would read Warfield. If they don't know anything about the man and they go, see, now here is this purely academic exercise, look at all the big words and you know, the man took care of his ailing wife, his ill wife, for years and years and years and still produced that body of work.

What he was writing determined how he lived his life. That's how it has to be.

If you're really believing what you're saying, this disconnection can't exist. If it does exist, it indicates there's no spiritual life.

I'm not saying anything new. This isn't shocking or surprising. We've been saying this all along.

Why do these folks have to make it sound like we've never said this? I don't understand it.

If your position is so anemic and so lacking in any meaningful substance to itself that all you can do is sit around and misrepresent other people and say, you all just believe it's a purely, where did you ever get that?

Document that. Prove that from something we've written. Don't just sit there and repeat it so often that it becomes an axiom that is to be accepted without proof.

It just amazes me. Theology needs to be moved down from the ivory tower and put on the streets. What do we do on this program every day?

We've been doing this long before anybody came up with this emergent church stuff. Of course it needs to be taken.

It can never just exist in the ivory tower. When it exists in the ivory tower alone, it becomes perverted.

That's why you don't see any of that in the New Testament. That's why I've attacked that kind of ivory tower theology for a long, long time.

And we'll continue to do so. Just don't call me a postmodernist or a supporter of emergent church stuff in the process.

Well, it's been an odd one today. I think Pete's sitting in Nova Scotia going, man,

I shouldn't have reset that server. I shouldn't have done it. But he did, and so it's all his fault.

So we will send all of the complaint emails to Pete. And he will go, yep, that makes sense.

That's what people do. Thanks Pete for getting us up. Thanks for listening. God bless. We'll see you next time on the Bible. Or write us at P .O.

Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the

World Wide Web at aomin .org, that's A -O -M -I -N dot O -R -G, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.