RAAN and Feeling "Safe" Worshipping with "White People"

And good afternoon, welcome to The Dividing Line. I'm doing some advertising here. I hope

Joe Thorne's watching if he's not he will be Eventually but You know,

I got down to New Zealand and man, I'll tell you something need to pray for our brothers and sisters in New Zealand Did y 'all see that video?

Did you see the video of that the golf shop? That's Wellington, that's where I was

Okay, I slept through a 4 .4 on like Sunday morning or Saturday morning, I forget what I didn't even wake up Which sort of bummed me out cuz everybody's like, oh that was sort of cool, you know

Yeah, okay It's that's huge and I would huge huge And I would have been out in the street and I bet you that I bet you the flights were canceled

Oh, it would have been a mess would have been now's on Monday So exactly one week I would have

I'd still be there Wow anyway Get to Wellington and I see

Joe Thorne has this shirt and he he gives it to one of the elders, you know And uh,

I didn't I didn't get one So I had to buy one It's okay.

I'm not hurt But People's what now why would you wear somebody else's shirt?

We're not in competition That's what's so cool when when you're doing what you've been called to do and You you know what it is.

The Lord's called you to do and gifted you do you're not in competition I'm not in a competition with Joe Thorne, you know,

I was on his webcast Would have been nice to give me a shirt then But anyway, I was on his webcast and you know,

I sat down is in his hotel room and we did our thing and He talks about his stuff and I don't

I really doubt Joe has ever done a program specifically on Codex Bezet Canterbury Jancis's Lacunae in the page containing

John 2028 and what this might mean in Muslim apologetics

Probably not something that he'd have a whole lot of interest in doing and so we're not in competition So, you know people are always going man

I'd like to have some other things to listen to I can only listen you know, and I understand this can only listen to so much of the dividing line because I Can only listen to so much of it

That's pretty much only when I do it. But anyway, so Doctrine and devotion you got to Joe Thorne really good brother.

We he's one of those guys. We had never met We sit down to dinner and it's just like click and And you click, you know, there's just that connection and I think it's wonderful Just weird that it had to happen on the other side of the planet when he's actually from,

Illinois But there you go, and it may be the next time we see each other Side of the planet so anyway lots and lots and lots of stuff to Talk about today.

We'll probably open the phones later on just so, you know, maybe possibly we'll see fact probably will

You know, I had a lot of people suggest, you know, it's nice to have the the phones open once in a while Yeah, I know.

I know and I know I know that I need and I want to go back and Finish up the response to Brownson on Romans 1 we sort of got to the key issue and it was sort of like after that it's just sort of like but We need to do it and put all those videos together in one place.

I realize that that needs to be done That's that's important. And so we got to do that During the cruise an unbelievable radio broadcast cam and by the way,

I listened to the NT Wright Tom Schreiner unbelievable program this morning and Once it comes out on either audible or Kindle, I will probably listen to NT Wright's new book

What's the day the revolution began I think is what's called something like that It was an interesting conversation

If you go over to unbelievable, in fact, it was interesting one of the one of the letters that Was but Justin read toward the end of the program

This guy was saying he was listening to Unbelievable because he heard another podcast playing segments of the

Bart Ehrman Richard Balcom stuff. Well Who might that have been? Yeah, that was us.

And so once again, Justin gets a listener from our recommending the program so anyway

It was interesting and You know Wright's just a great speaker and Tom Schreiner's not as good a speaker and he'd say that he'd said he'd said immediately.

Oh, yeah. No, no question about that So you need to look past that and listen carefully what's being said

But it was it was a good conversation on the issue of the atonement and penal substitutionary atonement and stuff like that Yeah, I like hearing

NT Wright saying I believe in penal substitutionary atonement and Yeah, so so often with Wright it's like yeah,

I hear what he's saying But there's just I don't know something there

Anyway, you might want to go listen to that. It was it's it's interesting. And so we've got some well, hopefully

Probably next week got some announcements to make about some cool upcoming stuff

Cool upcoming stuff Can't can't pull the trigger quite yet, but And and there's one thing we're working on If it happens it will be

What was Saddam Hussein's phrase the the mother of all wars this will be the debate of all debates

No two ways about it if if Michael Fallon can pull this one off Ha ha

It's gonna be gonna be something we're gonna try to do a program on Thursday. I'm gonna do it via Skype I'm gonna be in Tucson This weekend is

El Tour de Tucson. I don't mind telling people my son doesn't think I should tell anybody where I'm going

I'm not sure how anybody would show up if they don't know where I'm going, but And I'm not Ernie Cantor, but he's you know, the big safety minded, you know defense, dude

But I don't care if people know I'm doing El Tour de Tucson because there's like 9 ,500 cotton spandex clad people wearing

Oakley's and helmets and we all look identical. So That's probably the safest place.

I could possibly be well except for all the crazed people riding bikes around me But I'm gonna be down there and I'm gonna be at I'm gonna be speaking this weekend faith community as I've done

Wow, I think for like three maybe four years now and I love doing it

I I sort of feel bad just contact him and say hey, I'm coming down for El Tour if you'd like that Oh, come on.

Yes. Okay. All right cool Love it. They're very generous very kind folks and the folks always receive the ministry

Well there and that's Saturday night and twice on Sunday. So three three sermons.

That's always a challenge man I could tell you and I guess I discovered that there are certain people who remain nameless That if you have more than one service in your church, you're not a church

Yeah, there's there's a major group out there that says if you have

More than one service that you're not actually a church That each service should have its own elders should so it should be its own church unto itself.

No, I'm I'll tell you later who that is, but That don't say it too too loud

I hear we can we can actually chat with each other via the phone thing Yeah, so anyway, don't you wish you could see what's on the screen no not at the moment all right, so one of the

Wow, how do I how do I even begin on this? Oh, by the way, please just because I'm wearing this t -shirt

Please don't hold them accountable for anything that I say today differentiate I Almost took it off and and put a regular shirt on because as I got to talk about some controversial stuff

And then it's like don't really have time. So Joe will just have to take his lumps For allowing anybody to buy a shirt.

That's that's where the issue is uh, I was asked to listen to a webcast

We all know That in the not -yet -quite -weak sense

The election The response from the losing side

Has been What's that childish, yes, there has been a tremendous amount of demonstration of Rank immaturity on the part of many of course,

I think anybody needs a safe space is needs to grow up and That kind of stuff but there's been a lot of discussion a lot of argumentation

Most of which has not been overly helpful Obviously last evening we we got some of our first Indications People are trying to just disrupt me in channel, which

I find very You know just disrupting anyway

Yeah, yeah, I don't have Merc set up but I could do a massive banning of people

How do I how do I even that there have been people who said Don't talk about it.

Don't go there, but We don't yet know what

Donald J. Trump is gonna do. We knew what Hillary was gonna do Hillary was a known quantity corrupt evil anti -christian worldview the the the the candidate from Planned Parenthood Didn't have any questions at all

About where Hillary was gonna go what she was gonna do on her first day Anything like that fact the matter is we we don't have a clue nobody does

Because one of the main reasons that I opposed Donald Trump in the primaries and Would have preferred almost

Anybody that ran in the primaries to him? Was one of the main reason was this he has no formed worldview

You look back at his interviews in the late 90s things like that You know pro -abortion

Just your standard New York secular rich guy type thing very surface level

And we were told he's changed all the rest that stuff. Well So we got our first indication

From the 60 minutes interview last night. Well, you know that homosexuality stuff. It's it's gone Supreme Court.

That's settled on That's done But I'm gonna I'm gonna appoint pro -life

Supreme Court judges that would overturn Roe v. Wade if a

Bergafell is established law Why isn't Roe v. Wade? Roe v. Wade is 40 years More than 40 years

Bergafell's last year. How can one be settled law and the other is not and How do you choose a jurist that has a worldview

That would have them overturning Roe v. Wade But not overturning a Bergafell.

Oh, but that would require a consistent worldview thing and that's the problem I've never gotten any indication that the man ever even thinks about such things

That was one of my that was why I called him the Las Vegas candidate, well roll the dice

Roll the dice. We'll see what happens. That's that's that if you voted for Donald Trump you're all the roll the dice now you've seen the the

Signs of people saying your vote was a hate crime Now there are people who are saying if you voted for Donald Trump, you're guilty of a hate crime

Wow Don't recall this type of thing happening in the past but It's happening now and you know who you voted for used that used to be between you and God pretty much you it was almost

Something you didn't do you didn't ask people that well Would you like to it's almost like you're expected to answer that question now and and in the olden days you didn't you didn't do that But now you're being told if you support one side then you committed a hate crime now

Some of us tried to warn about this before it became two candidates Tried to say that this this is gonna create all sorts of problems if you go this direction

This man does not represent enough of us didn't didn't get listened to and Somehow he won now.

I firmly believe that he won Primarily because That I do not believe there's some groundswell of people who love

Donald J. Trump. I don't believe it I don't believe it for a second I think it was a combination of two things, but well if the primary thing was

Hillary Rodham Clinton Those of us that are older remember the scandal -plagued

Bordello that was the White House under Bill Clinton and Anyone who's done much in the way of digging into things even the left said she's just not a likable character

Everybody knows she treats her circuits secret service agents like dirt Military same way

Can can swear like a drunken sailor and does very often at everybody around her and So we all knew that there was the public and and of course then the emails just revealed that this was the reality there's a public

Hillary Clinton, and then then there's the real one and All of us are just sort of naturally turned off by someone who's completely different I Sort of like the fact that you know

I go travel one of the things that people say to me when they meet me while we're traveling is you're pretty much

Same on the dividing line as you are in real life as a yep Yeah, get what you see it whizzy wig.

I remember when we got our first whizzy wig Graphic design Word processing program,

I forget what it was called now. It wasn't Ventura publisher, but it was something else is even less advanced than that We did the

Roman Catholic tracts for the Pope's visit here the Phoenix on that you know

Nine pin dot matrix just but hey back then that's that's what that's what you did anyway whizzy wig

What you see what's good? That's that's the way I am and most of us sort of like that and other people, too But everybody knew that that's not what

Hillary Clinton was about that with Hillary Clinton your public persona and your reality very different things anyway

You put up a candidate That was absolutely reprehensible on every level one of the most corrupt politicians

America's ever seen and For many of us

While the strongest arguments was this this woman's not only against religious liberty she's not only against the

Christian worldview she is Bought and paid for by Planned Parenthood and there are a lot of us that really find

Planned Parenthood to be the modern incarnation of the cult of mulloch

Okay, I mean, it's just that disgusting and so Donald Trump Got a lot of votes from people

Who just were completely repelled by? This individual their worldview their history their corruption their dishonesty

Not because they've thought anything positive about Donald Trump But they decided you know hanging or get shot which ones which

I think getting shot might be faster Yeah, so let's go that way, you know, it's just which of my two poisons am

I gonna am I gonna go with here? That's that's that's pretty much what happened and so The number comes out

That 81 % of white evangelicals, it's funny I could not find a single

I Didn't have a whole lot of time this morning to look I did look though could not find a single statistic about black evangelicals

Maybe they didn't collect that information. I I can't imagine that almost every No, no, there's not an assumption there that there aren't any no, not at all

I Think if I recall correctly about 80 some -odd percent of the black vote

Went for Hillary Clinton that Trump did better than than Romney did interestingly enough

But still you're similar numbers between white evangelicals and blacks as a whole for different candidates now

Do you know what makes an evangelical today? And do you trust a pollster?

To accurately identify the evangel I don't Because The people they identify as evangelicals,

I just go really seriously no way Non -trinitarians or things like that obviously

The word itself is only mildly useful any longer. But for some reason it has been accepted in totality

With this 80 81 percent of Of White Evangelicals voted for Donald Trump and Okay twice now, okay just now once in channel and once in Twitter One guy says

I asked leading black evangelicals about those statistics they declined to answer and then in channel almost identically a URLs popped up evangelicals remain complicated

They don't want to identify themselves as evangelicals. Okay. Well makes sense

So I can't give I can't countercite anything as to how many conservative believing

Black brothers and sisters voted for Hillary Rodham Clinton or Donald J.

Trump. I don't know Evidently the information Isn't out there. Okay, since we can't go there

I was directed to a podcast and I'm going to play a portion of the podcast

I'm gonna comment on a portion of the broadcast. I'm gonna try to keep this brief because I've invited

The person making the comments to join me on the dividing line probably next week That's certainly don't want to do a

Thursday if I'm doing it by Skype that that wouldn't work But maybe next week if he chooses to do so I listened to all of it twice this morning it was a long ride listen to it twice and There'd be a lot of people would say oh don't don't touch this again.

You didn't didn't you learn the first time? Well, I don't want to go through what

I did in May But this if this was any other issue if Well, let's listen to it first and then let me give you the counter citation and We'll we'll figure out from there.

What? What we're looking at you got queued up I've got it plugged in Here we go.

Well There we go. Would I go to my pastor and especially how would an african -american in a predominantly white church?

Go to their pastor and even begin to have the discussion of the pain that they're feeling

Whether it with kind of understanding that based on those statistics that pastor may have been a Trump supporter mmm

You told me to be honest right Bo is honest So I'm just I'm gonna say where I am.

And so I'm really can only Definitively speak for me But I don't think it's going too far out on a limb to say that there are many other

Black Christians who may feel the same way and this is probably gonna surprise a lot of white people and maybe even

Feel offensive to them. But but here it is. Just the raw honest truth. I Really this

Sunday don't feel safe worshiping with white people

I Go to a church that is Predominantly white and reformed.

I am part of a denomination that his overwhelmingly white and reformed and I know

Dozens and dozens and dozens of people personally who are great people Individually good relationships with them generous all of those things

But right now I feel betrayed by The church Not the church universal.

I know that Christ is still the cornerstone. I know that in you know eschatological sense

Nothing will prevail against the church and that this is this is my home We are Christ's Bride and and that's that hasn't changed and certainly not because of a little thing like a presidential election however

Let's be real we live in the real world on Sunday. I have to go to a physical building with a local congregation filled with people who just like me are sinners and I know for certain that in Many of the congregations in which

I've been a member or worshipped in There are folks who were overtly outright boldly

Trump supporters and Are happy right now, and I cannot emotionally bring myself to Be comfortable with that And going in on Sunday morning and singing songs and praying with this group of people who seem

So out of touch with my experience of America It's painful right because we we hear the stats we hear the talking about Evangelicals turning out and for many of us we think well, that's that's that that's like a false

Evangelical ism right? That's that's a misrepresentation of the gospel. Surely These are not the true Christians, but as you just kind of painted a picture of I mean in your very church

I mean, this is this is happening. And this is of course happening across the nation where Many don't feel safe.

So how how do we process this reality of? being Being in community with people that we are not in community with Okay, I wanted to stop there being in community with people we are not in community with back in May Hornets Nest was kicked over because I dared wander into an area that my melanin count does not qualify me to wander into and We lamented the

Reality of ethnic Gnosticism the idea that you have to experience what

I experienced to be able to say anything criticize anything be concerned about anything and What's really concerning me here is this is this is becoming a gospel issue if you didn't hear

Gospel issues and that you weren't listening. You weren't listening. How can you be a part of a community that you're not a part of the community?

So which community is is being seen this is this is Jamar Tisby is the speaker and then someone else is interviewing him sort of And he's one of the primary people in Ron the reformed african -american network remember

Ron went after me for a 540 word article and Which community is primary here the body of Christ or The ethnic community and in that question, there's no question what the answer is

The the first and primary is ethnic the Ecclesiastical is secondary and to me

That is dangerously Unbiblical Dangerously unbiblical.

I don't understand it. In fact, I was thinking I was thinking about being down in in Wellington and In the church there where we had the conference

It was sort of a I don't know how to describe it they they rent it from a it's actually a music studio and so sort of dark and It's black and gray and I was thinking about the people that I met there.

I was thinking about one particular fellow in a wheelchair and I really spent some time with him we talked with him chad with him and and Really sort of went on my way to greet him and stuff and I was thinking was he black

I Don't remember in fact I started thinking about everybody was there and see down in down in New Zealand and in Australia They have their own native populations you have to be very careful about the

Aboriginals in Australia and the Maori in New Zealand and there's actually sort of like rules as to what you can and cannot do and stuff like that and The only time

I ever Thought about race or ethnicity at all

In the entire time I was in New Zealand was when I was rowing in the little gym and There was

TV and I tried to find Something to you know to watch

Rowing can be somewhat tedious and It turned out that the

TV station was a Maori station it was a local you know the local indigenous people and I just was it was in the

Maori language I may even be mispronouncing it, but it was in that language and had subtitles and About the only time

I ever thought when I was in the church. I'm sitting here thinking about people who came up and talked to me

I Don't care what color they are I don't think about what their ethnicity is

They're just brothers and sisters in Christ. I just don't understand this dedication to making race

Absolutely the lens it's it's the glasses. It's it's it's you know. It's just I'm gonna look at everything through this

I Will not I refuse you can't force me to do it. You can you can call me of all the names in the world and I know there are big names in evangelicalism that are pushing this stuff.

I know I know who they are Ain't going there you can stop inviting me to stuff.

Sorry nothing I can do about because the gospel I understand Says that the primary community,

I'm a part of is the kingdom of God Everything else is secondary

Everything else is secondary I'm not a Scotsman first I'm a

Christian first so but what

Jamar said at the beginning some of you I saw people on channel going

But what what? You What what let's let's try that let's try it again, let me let me back it up here

I'm gonna say where I am and so I'm really can only Definitively speak for me, but I don't think it's going too far out on a limb to say that there are many other black

Christians who may feel the same way and this is probably gonna surprise a lot of white people and maybe even

Feel offensive to them, but but here it is just the raw honest truth. I Really this

Sunday don't feel safe worshiping with white people

This Sunday, I do not feel safe Worshiping with white people now what

Jamar needs to understand is most of what we're hearing is so you think we're gonna beat you up on Sunday because Donald Trump won the election

I Didn't vote for Donald Trump But leave that aside because the 80 % of what they call evangelicals look let's be honest

That's they don't know who evangelicals are that's a grossly inflated number, but Leave it aside

When we hear safe, we're not using it in the modern liberal socialist construct of safe spaces

What you're saying is I think what you're saying is I won't feel comfortable and later on that's like that I did catch it this time.

I was listening really carefully. You did use that term later on Wouldn't be comfortable. So The first thing is to us that sounds like you're saying we're we want to beat you up which

We just we just go Huh? Huh? Total disconnect complete and total disconnect and Do you do you not realize what you're saying about your brothers and sisters in Christ to make that statement

You know, you keep saying well you need to understand what our experience is So you you get to basically say that we're murderers at heart all the time because of our skin color of our skin and That's okay

Really? Okay, all right Leaving whether safe means safe or safe means comfortable off the side for a moment worshipping with white people

Let's could could we for just a second put the shoe on the other foot for just just a moment.

I realize A lot of people say nope, you can't We're absolutely unique We have an absolutely unique it's the ethic

Gnosticism. Nope, you cannot you cannot apply the same standards in reverse

Won't work. We just won't we will not even discuss it But but here's the question I would have all through and I list

I said I listened to it twice. I listened to it twice All through this was this lamenting

Limp and and I kept wanting to ask so You would have rejoiced

That one of the most corrupt Anti -christian politicians

Ever to walk on the stage in the United States was elected a

Woman who would be absolutely certain To not only continue but to promote the

Holocaust Amongst unborn children amongst african -americans

Amongst black americans She would be certain to make sure to murder as many as possible because that's what

Planned Parenthood is about But you would read choice in that You wouldn't be lamenting that I'm just I'm left stuttering.

I Really am I don't I don't understand Because the only the only thing

I could understand was you were saying yes I'm lamenting because Trump won and I wouldn't have been lamenting had

Clinton won and I'm just left going I'm lamenting both of them, but for different reasons.

I'm lamenting Trump Because we don't know where he's gonna go and we're gonna find out that he

Said what he needed to say to get elected Now I want to give him a chance. He hasn't started yet.

I want to give him a chance But it was plain as a nose on her face that He's just an unregenerate playboy and he's gonna act like an unregenerate playboy and we can expect you know, we can hope that maybe some people around him might do something good, but Scraps, it's best we can hope for but we knew what we were gonna get with Clinton.

All right, so let's say for the fun of it that Hillary Clinton won the election and the next day

We fire up a webcast here and I'm lamenting and I am just Shaking my head going.

Oh, I just can't believe this has happened. And then

I made the statement I'll be honest with you. I just I Just don't know if I'm gonna feel safe on Sunday worshiping with black people if anybody said that In my church

And I'm stealing this from rich because rich mentioned this beforehand. I think if anybody said it in riches church

They would be pulled over by the elders So quickly and what do you mean by that?

What are you talking about? That's racist and divisive. What are you talking about?

Don't you all know we're all one in Christ you what do you mean you you wouldn't feel safe worshipping with black people

That's absurd That'd be the first thing that would happen. Boom And it should

How does anyone get away with saying this kind of stuff?

That's what I want to talk to you about because I'll be perfect house with Jamar. I find that absolutely sinful.

I Find it sinful. That's a sinful attitude and what what just leaves me again my naivete

What leaves me come, you know, and it's and it's all I know it's all because I won't buy the narrative

You know, I just I just you just once you buy the narrative then you discover that this isn't racism

This is just you know, whatever. Oh Let's let's do what let's do the only thing that actually should be done in a situation like this

Let's go to the word, please Can we do that? Colossians chapter 1 in whom we have the redemption the forgiveness of sins verse 14

It's textual variant there by the way, but I'm not gonna get into that. We've discussed it before Who is the image of the invisible

God the firstborn of all creation firstborn means one one has preeminence over Because in him were all things created

Whether in heaven or earth visible invisible thrones lordships rulers principalities or authorities

Top on to do to kite ice out on ecstasy all things top on top

Not the not the pawn not just the all things in an ungeneralized but concrete reality

All things were created through him and for him Ice out on is also used interesting of the father in this context elsewhere over.

I think it's in Romans 11 and He is prop on tone. He is before all things and top on to an out and out

Oh Soon as they can the the the all things in him hold together

So we've gone over this many many times because it's it's one of the key Christological passages Deity of Christ is creator of all things antinostic

Etc, etc, etc, etc, and he is the head of the body the church

Who is the beginning the RK the origin the source or it could be the first in the sense of?

Prototic us act tone Necron. He is the firstborn from the dead in order that so we're talking here again,

I'm trying to get to a particular point, but Just so we're not running past things the

Jewish mindset resurrection end times But God has upset that traditional

Jewish idea. You have the resurrection of the Messiah. He's the first fruits and And So he is the the firstborn for the dead in order that he might come to have the first place protean in all things because He was pleased

It pleased him pleased the Father That in him that is in the

Son the Incarnate Son if you go back to verse Well, it's actually come out again a little bit later on but you go back and He entered into flesh

It was pleased that all The play

Roma the play Roma. Sorry, there's no word right after play

Roma the fullness should dwell in him and here's the key and D out to through him by means of him

To reconcile to reconcile

Reconcile what top on top ice out on?

through him to reconcile all things unto himself now, this has been somewhat of a

Challenging text for me because it's a proof text for the

Universalists Universalists are people who believe that everyone will be saved

That there will eventually be the salvation of every single individual and and many would go so far as to say

Satan himself through him to reconcile top on top ice out on so how

How has top on top on top on top has been used always is all creation. How has top on top been reconciled to the father?

Well, we tend to think of reconciliation Solely in soteriological categories

We have been reconciled our our relationship to God has been made right.

How did he do so? well There is a

Singular word singular. It's it's a hotbox Only one time use so it's one of those places where the

Apostle Paul likes to sort of The Apostle Paul had a German streak

If if you know the German language the Germans love to take multiple words just Just pile them on top of each other in one word and just make this long

Cool sounding thing that you can spit all over yourself with well he takes

Peace the word peace. I rain a boy. Oh to make turns it into a participle

Having made peace Dia to haima toss to staru out to through the blood of his cross

So There's something about reconciliation That has to be defined by the making of peace that has to be defined by the making of peace and this happens through the central act of the

Incarnate Son of God the God -man He made peace through the blood of his cross and Then he he wants to make sure

Paul wants to make sure we understand Through him whether taught epitapes gays

Ita taught and toys or annoyance. So that's the things in on earth or the things in heaven. There has been a reconciliation there has been

Something that is directly related to the blood of the cross that makes peace that results in reconciliation now the

Universalist says see there it is. Everyone's gonna be saved Everyone's going to heaven. Well, I suppose this is all you had

If you only had this text you could argue that this very same

Apostle very plainly very clearly Teaches that that's not the case, but he does teach

That the judgment That is going to come upon those that are outside of this one who made peace

That that judgment will be a just judgment and that God will be justified

This is what theodicy means they asked in Dickeye Oh To justify the justification of God.

That's what theodicy is about the God will be justified in his having

Created in the first place Because what's one of the big arguments? Well, there could be people in hell the why

God create well, there's something about Having made peace the blood of his cross

That will allow for this Reconciliation of all things my understanding is what this means is in the demons in the self giving of the cross in the condescension of the

Sun in The perfect bearing in his body of the wrath that was due to his elect people

You have not only the grounding of their own peace with God But you also have in that self giving of the

Sun the foundation for the justice of the judgment of God and This is the sense in which

There is peace that is made that peace is because there's no

Injustice we've said many many times you either receive justice from God the just penalty of your sins or You receive mercy and grace mercy and grace are not in the categories of justice

They are not injustice because God's law has been Satisfied satiated probe his holiness propitiated not just expiated in the work of the

Sun Upon the cross of Calvary Now, what does this have to do? What we're talking about right now.

Well, it's that term Reconciliation we're hearing a lot about racial

Reconciliation, what does that mean within Christianity?

Well, I demand I Demand that the terms we use in our discussion be defined by God's Word and not by socialists

If you are going to demand That we take left -wing leftist socialist

Marxist theory and Allow it to determine our exegetical methodology.

I'm out of the conversation Can't go there won't go there respect the word too much to go there

Okay Is that fair? I think it is fair Because in no other area

Would we be asked to do this in no other area? So there is a reconciliation and this is something that he has accomplished

And it is through Christ. This reconciliation has taken place

This is a reality this then Results in The bringing together of Jew and Gentile now you want you want to have huge massive cultural and ethnic

Divisions Look at how the Jews looked at Gentiles Look at how they treated

Gentiles and Paul says can't happen in the church Can't that's the whole thing of Galatians 2

It's whole reason to stand up to the Apostle who walked with Jesus and walked on water and Was considered the leader of the

Apostles by the oldest certainly the most mouthy stand up to Peter when you were the

Apostle Paul were called late and People lay their garments at your feet when they stone Stephen and and yet you dare to stand up to Paul and say

You're not walking straight in accordance to the truth of the gospel and he accepts it This is the foundation of that No, Jew, no

Gentile. You're all one in Christ. Jesus. You're all one in Christ Jesus and Once you understand that that middle wall of separation has been broken down It's been gotten rid of then you need to understand that there has been a renewing there is a new creature and Your community is defined by that new creature in Christ Not by anything else it is not by the color of your skin

It is not by how much melanin you have there is one race the human race and Then there is one community the kingdom of God Not multiple communities.

That's why he emphasizes whether things on earth or things in heaven Everything God has done in creation

Reconciled blood of his cross result he can speak of a renewal in Colossians chapter 3 a

Renewal in which there is no distinction Between Greek and Jew circumcised and uncircumcised barbarian

Scythian slave and free man, but Christ is all and in all how much more clearly does he have to say it a person who understands this renewal will not even think in the categories of Worshipping with black people or white people

That's not even a valid category It's just not there

So as those who have been chosen of God hmm hosts

I Collect toy this brother.

We've been listened to is reformed well, then apply your theology the elect are made up of every tribe tongue people and nation and It is the work of the

Lamb who has made them a kingdom of priests unto God. That's our definition That's our identity nothing else nothing else

It can't be not in Christianity anyways not in biblical Christianity as Those who have been chosen of God Holy and Beloved put on a heart of compassion kindness humility gentleness and patience

They were talking about stuff That has happened To black people since the election now

I've seen videos of thugs Dragging people out of their cars and beating them up and I've heard about this happening and that happening and I happen to know we did we learn something from wikiLeaks

You know paying people to go and and start trouble at the other guys campaign to make him look bad

But let's say There was someone mentioned who drove by a

Black man and yelled Trump Trump Trump at them Christian man.

I don't know what you can do about someone's driving by but if I was in a situation If if we were out

If we were out with members of my church Who are black or Hispanic or whatever?

Asian and some moron Decided to start yelling about Trump at them.

I'm getting between them and that person and I'm getting that person's face I'm gonna try to bring peace, but I'm not just gonna stand there and go

Because what unites us is not our skin color. It's our common confession of faith in Christ So all of that goes back to my asking the question

If Clinton had won and I had showed up on this program the next day and said

I'm not I'm not I don't know if I feel safe worshiping with black people. I would hope you'd shut us down.

I Can't conceive of it. I can't it's wrong.

It's just gonna be brief It's just gonna be brief I really was early was

I am really concerned Because I know the pressure is being put on pastors

To spread this stuff in Their churches and to tell people we need to be working toward racial reconciliation.

What on earth does that mean? We need to be rejoicing in the reconciliation that is ours in Christ Jesus, isn't that what the body is about?

Look my friends If if you if you're sitting there and you heard me saying earlier

I Was talking about I was talking about being in a church in New Zealand and as I sit here

I can honestly say I Don't remember What anyone's ethnicity was?

That I mean there's there's a lot of mixture in New Zealand's there's a lot of different shades of skin but It just it just never crossed my mind

It just never crossed my mind and Some of you're sitting there saying I don't believe you if you can't even conceive of What it's like to live without race as the defining factor of all your thoughts

You and I can have a hard time talking Jean -pierre Cote, I don't know what the percentage is, but we have a number

Does it matter what's the percentage of Asian Americans in our we have

Filipinos and Chinese and blacks and Hispanics on my on the street that You've you've been gone for a while, but on the street where I live if there's a third left

One third left in that neighborhood that are white. I'd be surprised. I really would

I Don't live in an all -white lily white neighborhood and upscale and all the rest that type of stuff

Get out of your Marxist mindset people Listen to what

I'm saying. Yeah reconciliation.

What's the basis of reconciliation between any two Christians? What did Jesus say it was where did

Jesus talk about race Where did Jesus say that we needed to reconcile races? What's the basis of any reconciliation between two believers it's their shared forgiveness of sin that's the basis and If you try to come up with something else if you try to demand that I somehow need to buy into some kind of paradigm

That you just need to understand what our experience is So what you're telling me is how

Christians are to relate to one another in America is Going to be fundamentally different than how Christians supposed to relate to one another in other lands where it's a completely different social mix

Right, is that how it works? You don't see the danger of that Paul did that's why we have

Galatians 2 That's why we have Galatians 2. It's a biblical issue

And I seem to recall the last time when this came up. It was when we went to the Bible that things just sort of went silent

Because you I've seen the best efforts and I do have one of the question while we're at it

Just for the fun of it just to bring it around to something else. Maybe Make it possible to open the phones and actually has because right now no one's gonna call

Right now it's like no. No, no. No, no, not no not calling that number. Not now. Mm -hmm.

I Since we've we've spent all this time And I've raised this question. I want an answer

You know, I'm gonna I can start writing for people the Facebook post right now about my insensitivity and all the rest that Silliness, it's gonna be flowing my direction but the

Reformed African American Network just a couple weeks ago.

I Did a search on the website and maybe things have changed the past couple of weeks I'd like to think that they have no one's bothered to tell me that they have

I did a search for Hebrew Israel ism because here is a move.

Here is a Pick me pick me Kofi what do you want me to do dude?

I'll pick you Look, you know Kofi is just one of the guys that I I love him and I I know he hears me on this and I Just you know,

I don't want to embarrass guy, but I just wanna go look at that guy You know, he's he's as black as night, but I don't

I don't see it in that way. I'm sorry That I'm not a part of that he's just my brother doggone it and I'm concerned about His passion for Christ and his growth in Christ and and that's all

I care about I Don't care about the rest of that stuff. And and I don't want him to To be thinking oh

Given James's experience and you know, should I should I avoid saying anything about William Wallace?

Would it would it infuriate him? Stop. Oh Just just love each other as brothers doggone it now

I lost my Made me lose my oh, okay found my okay. Here we go. Oh Yeah, that would cost you money to call dude because our toll -free number doesn't count for you

But if you want to call in I'll take it But here's the question. I want to I want to ask

Hebrew Israel is Is ravaging black churches all across North America, it really is had a lot of people contact us and Black pastors struggling to deal with it

Losing sheep right and left and you would think

That if your concern is really for the African American community then the health of the

African American Church And hence one of its primary predators

Would be right up front right when I checked the Ron Network website a few weeks ago

Nothing Not a single mention of it certainly no resources no responses

Why is the silly -looking lily -white guy The one that you can find dozens and hundreds anymore at least many dozens of videos on YouTube filled with black racism

People calling for my beheading disemboweling Their their their foots gonna be on my neck.

I'm going to be enslaved. I am Satan. I am Lucifer I'm the devil

Not a word about a like that kind of stuff. No one came rushing to my defense and you all seen him

Half of my can't even play on the air because they're filled with so much profanity Why is it that I'm the one debating elder a car hmm strange

Seems like an inconsistency there to me. Anyway, so I'm asking the question. Why not

Provide resources to help the church with one of the I mean

I've I've It's clearly obvious to me The one of the reasons there's so little information on the

Hebrew Israelite movement is Because of a distinction a wall that should not be there and You know, it's what a lot of people say

I thought don't don't go after some topics like we've seen people set free already We'll do more in the future.

Well, that's not saying that say well, maybe not but Needs to be done Might it not be easier for other folks to do it

Yeah seems so but Some reason it's not getting done Hmm.

Oh Gonna isolate that one sentence. Whatever one said. Well, you know when people isolate sentences, what can you say?

What can you say? I'm just looking at Yeah, it's free with Skype.

Unfortunately, we're not set up to To do that right now Someday someone is going to reestablish all of that, right?

Someday I'm just looking

I'm just glancing at Twitter here Just to see what's what's there

I Don't know if he's listening

And this has really scrolled a very very long way I have not seen everything

Seiko Woods was Ranting and raving about something Victor Hernandez says that's such a ridiculous statement.

I'm Mexican and feel just fine worshiping the predominantly white church. Well, of course as long as you understand What what makes us brothers and sisters?

Few people quoting me But anyways, I had contacted

There are all sorts of video Things that were posted to me. I can't play videos while I'm doing the dividing line because you can't really you know

Listen to it and that was the other way would hear it and stuff but I'm boy.

Look how many I'm having to scroll through here. Yikes There we go.

So it's been over an hour and I had sent Jamar Tisby a

Tweet and I said, would you if you still believe what you said in what

I played? If you believe that's an appropriate statement to make That that I do not feel safe worshiping with white people.

I Said would you be willing to come on the dividing line discuss it and That that invitations open

Because I don't think most of my audience, you know at the very least you can explain hey This is why

I feel that's an appropriate thing in light of a Reformed understanding of the gospel which says there is no barbarian

Scythian Jew Gentile bond -free male female those distinctions

Don't hold for the cross So Why is there a

Active I mean y 'all Y 'all are raising money as a ministry

To promote this perspective, I think a lot of people go, um, we don't get it and You say we don't get it either but I we'd like to we'd like a biblical explanation of How anyone could say how any

Christian reformed Christian your Presbyterian? You said your denominations called the frozen chosen.

Now. The reality is both PCA and OPC argue over who's More frozen and more chosen

So, I'm not sure which one that is but our people

I think would like to hear a Reformed exegesis of the inspired text

That would substantiate any Christian Making the statement that I do not feel safe worshiping with Fill in the blank white people black people brown people

Asians Whatever because we don't get it.

Don't get it So That's why

I asked first do you still stand by this because maybe it was just I Was up to three o 'clock yesterday morning.

I've only gotten a nap and Maybe now you'd go. Yeah, that was yeah.

No And I would like to hear that the problem is my experience back in May is there's a lot of people that will say that There's a lot of people will say that My position is no reformed person no reformed person can defend that I just don't

I just don't think any can't I'm willing to listen I'd like to hear but I get to ask questions and And Generally in my experience when that happens people go.

Yeah, maybe not I've been known to be able to ask questions that are pointed and sort of seek to Get to the real issue

So we'll see what if that happens now, we have strange people.

Well, of course, I always have strange people I don't understand one of these

You didn't understand either Seiko wants to come over I don't feel warm worshipping with Eskimos Something tells me that there is a thermal

Equivocation on the term warm there Thermal yes. Yes. There's a black reformed brother on YouTube who debated them them's who's them

Ron maybe Thank You James, but once the incoming starts exploding, will you still be behind me?

Yes Yes Yes, dort in channel. We always have strange people.

We do always have strange people, especially on Twitter and in channel both So, there you go.

Well, I really don't think opening the phone is doing any good right now.

I really don't So here's what we're gonna do I'm gonna see what

Mr. Tisby has to say and We will not be doing this on Thursday because we can't technically

I don't know what we will be doing on Thursday I'm sure some weird stuff will have happened. I'm sure there'll be some Facebook articles and everything else

But I'm actually getting interviewed I think on Friday Oh Hey, let's do let's do all the trouble we can in one day.

Why not? Let's just let's just blow everything up on one day Okay, I mean I'm wearing a

Joe Thorne shirt. There are certain people that aren't gonna like Joe Thorne. All right, so Just opened a

Pandora's box again with the racial issue and Then what was the third thing?

What was the third thing I was just about to mention Well, the phone started ringing and it totally distracted me

There was one other thing man.

I've lost my mind Okay, can I still can I still? Who is it?

Oh Okay, I can I can Maybe I can think while we're talking to him

There was something There was something in Twitter that he said That had me thinking about something. I totally lost it now, especially with We got it because this is well, you know, it's not all that expensive anymore.

It's not as bad as it used to be All right. Let's talk to brother Kofi. Hi. Hi, dude

Well, I don't know I went and I went and did it again but I just I'm sorry, but when

I hear someone say I don't feel safe Worshipping with and then you fill in a a descriptor.

I I felt like something had to be said No, no, it has to be said you had to be said.

I mean, it's funny enough. You mentioned this today. Um So I was with a bunch of our folks in church yesterday after service.

We went out to eat and this whole question came up of the growing discussion of race and Racial issues within the church and you know

I kind of sit in a weird place with this box, right because part of me understands the conversation that people want to have in that you know it is particularly for those of us who've come from other contexts and we get exposed to the reformed faith and We're learning all this great theology

But it's so markedly different culturally to a lot of what we grew up in I can understand that sometimes we feel that Okay, we're not really listening to and there's a conversation that needs to be had there that much

I understand but My big issue and the reason why I was so shocked when I heard that clip you played from the um, the podcast

My issue is and I said this to them yesterday at the heart of it Is this us versus them mentality?

When it comes to discussing these issues that is ultimately counterproductive because if you start viewing it as us versus them on either side

You get people who want to be defensive and people who see the defensiveness and feel oh you're running away

So they end up being more aggressive and as a result that conversation is not being had and actually You're having the inverse effect of what the gospel is supposed to do because the gospel is supposed to as you said

Unite it's meant to reconcile but how can it reconcile when you've got this group of people who you set as the other and this other um

To say something like I don't feel safe worshipping with and then like you said you put this descriptor in there

That's making this us versus them without realizing these are brothers and sisters in the lord jesus christ now

I personally think like I love my american friends. I'm marrying an american next year, but I think you've all gone crazy

If those are the two candidates you can put up I'm sorry, it just I got a begs belief.

I don't know what to say. Oh, I know. I know. Hey, i'm i'm with you Yeah, so In that sense, okay, either way it was not going to be a great um result come wednesday morning

We all knew this no, but to sit there and say oh because you voted for this particular person. I no longer feel safe Really?

So you felt let's take this back a couple of years ago when we didn't even know trump was gonna run or not You felt safe then but you don't feel safe now.

Yeah, what if it had been another republican candidate? Would would that have been the same issue?

It just gets so messy and you know for me as a young black man who Knows these are stuff like I feel like a man without a country sometimes.

Yeah, I can't say I agree with that And at the same time I want to try and emphasize to a degree

And if I'm also being unable to do that, you just you throw your hands up and just say what do you do? What do you do?

Well now my understanding is you're heading our direction after you get married, aren't you? That's the plan so it's going to be president trump for you, too pretty much

I guess that's why i've kind of taken more of an interest than usually yeah knowing what's gonna happen But even then you know, like I don't feel unsafe, you know,

I I know people who voted for trump I'm sure we'd disagree if you know, we were sat across from each other, you know having lunch or something but at the same time i'm not going to sit there and say that every person who doesn't does this because of Um, there's some racial feeling that they have or you know, they're a racist or you know

They're just being discriminatory. No, there were a bunch of other reasons why people felt in good conscience. They could vote for trump

I disagree with them. No problem But to sit there and say what every person who voted for trump is a racist or is a xenophobe that makes zero sense to me and it's disappointing when you hear

Believers saying that about other believers, right? Well, and I think that's that's the thing that really uh caught me is was the use the term worship

I cannot worship. I I do not feel safe worshipping Worship is the one thing that that binds us all together

I mean, we we're all supposed to have the same object if if anything is the great equalizer

It should be worship because I mean it it you look you look at the the throngs before the throne

I I mean, are they divided by race when they're before the throne? No, it it's it's all directed to one thing that's what what

I anyway Yeah, I mean again that feeling of not knowing what to say is something that I feel constantly and um

And you get tired of it. I've seen you a number of times say i'm i'm out of here. Um, i'm not i'm too much

I mean I had someone just today get upset because I Um responded to a tweet and they felt that what

I said was insensitive They asked me a question Don't you know how many people have left the church over there? Who are you trying to preach to just your reformed theologian friends?

And I just said You know No, i'm not trying to preach to anybody. I'm just a guy with an opinion. Um, you're free to listen to you're free not but Yeah, it just becomes so messy and like the like you said the ground is

The ground is level at the foot of the cross all of us who are believers. The thing that unites us is Our lord jesus christ and It just bothers me when we start finding ways to put up barriers and put up divisions once again

Rather than trying to unite the body which let's face it There's enough things that go on that divide us as it is.

We need to add one more thing to the mix Yep, no question about it. Well, I appreciate you calling in and um listening and uh,

I I just I hope people will hear what I had said. I I know that there are some who just constitutionally will not do so um, because to even hear what

I said is to Fundamentally say that that paradigm doesn't have to be embraced by everybody.

But you know, I I get it and um, so so next year um

I I I just have to say i'm never really going to be able to join with you.

However In pulling for the giants. I just can't do it. I'm, sorry um, it's just Just just inappropriate and uh

So we can have our divisions we can have our divisions along that line and uh, And uh, that doesn't really have anything to do with anything else.

So hey, thanks for your thoughts today. I appreciate it All right. Anytime. All right. God bless. All right. Bye All right.

Go. All right one more person Then we're going to pull the plug on this and that's because you're about to explode. I realize that but All right,

Seiko, uh, you've got you've got your you've got your your moment of fame Uh, you know while I was sitting here waiting and listening to the to the comments and the and the

And the sound bite that you put up and and also just you know hearing that I've already taken my blood pressure pills, but i'm already reaching stroke status.

So if something happens, I can tell you know Yeah, I can tell since your tweets were all in caps.

Um, yeah Yeah, could you help me on this? Okay. So then I didn't vote for I didn't vote for either candidate

So no, I didn't either should I feel unsafe around both both parties? Yes, uh, you should feel unsafe around both white and black people, which means okay

Which means you need to hide forever never come out of coalition We can have like a little swirl. I can have a swirl umbridge against you know

Anyone that basically voted for either candidate black and white I guess Okay I don't know.

I don't look I understand look if you I I one of the things that concerns me is that um,

The the left has painted I mean I painted But I think it's an accurate picture of of donald trump the the left painted a picture of donald trump where he's you know, uh

Got swastika tattoos and and stuff like that and is you know, and unfortunately they ended up believing the

Caricature they created and so I understand that there are people that are just frightened out of their minds

Especially if they have no earthy idea how the american government works and especially because hey

Wow, we did have a president for the past eight years. It sort of ruled by presidential proclamations.

So Uh, you know you put two and two together and all of a sudden you're thinking this guy I mean

I saw I actually saw a video of a guy Who was saying well, I understand donald trump's wife is from like czechoslovakia.

Is he gonna send her back, too? And the the the reporter goes well, actually those people you're talking about all came legally

He's not talking about them and the guy was stunned like uh So so it's not a whole lot of thought that's been going on in those areas

But I I get what's going on, but this is supposed to be within a reformed Christian dialogue here and that's what's gotten me when you start talking about worship

I was just saying with kofi when you're saying I can't worship with someone That is a fun what you're saying is this is gospel.

This is foundational This determines how we can even worship god and i'm just like whoa, stop stop cease desist

You've got to really think about what you're doing here. And what really what it is, uh, dr White is manipulation. I mean if we really just drill it down To the to the source.

I didn't get my way my my candidate of choice which as a black man And this is you know, everybody does everybody know i'm black on this call.

Uh, well, I don't I would You are a little bit on the either famous or infamous side.

So either one. Yeah. Yeah, probably Our last two callers are significantly darker than I am.

Okay. How's that? Is that good? That sounds good So as a black man hearing hearing what you know jamar said that just really bothered me and grieved me because You're basically telling people that when

I don't get my way I can manipulate and then if you have a platform it makes it worse Because not everyone is discerning and and this has been the most emotionally charged.

Oh, yeah election cycle that I have ever witnessed uh in my whole life, so Um, it's it's

I guess the sad thing about it for me is that you know When these brothers make these statements and you want to challenge them and have a conversation

They don't want to spend time or even want to give you the time to have a discussion It seems like it's just this this one -sided you know, uh

Platform that they want to engage people that just that agrees with them But the but those who disagree with them like myself, you know, like kofi, you know black people

Um, because you don't count dr white because you know, you're you're pigmentation and melanin is kind of deficient it is very deficient

Yeah, you don't count. No, you know, let us deal with that. But that's my point. So People like myself and kofi and others who say wait, hold on.

Excuse me. We're black We disagree biblically with you. Let's have a conversation

We hear crickets and so we have to have these discussions and unfortunately i'm struggling. I know that lets you go but i'm struggling with even going to this, um

A conference I believe next year that uh, tibidi and yubile is having are called just the gospel

I'm struggling. I want to go. I think I might go I've been i've been asked to go with some other brothers and stuff to to have this type of uh conversation, but it's like okay

If there's a struggle in even the body of christ and saying listen Why are we acting as if the gospel is not enough the gospel is enough if you preach the gospel that the gospel affect

One's life then it will change how you see your brother or your neighbor. Yeah Oh, I agree.

I agree very much. So well, I think you should go just simply because I would I would like to uh hear you know a report and uh

What's it supposed to be about? What do you mean? Just the gospel? Yeah, but it's supposed to be about if they're saying is the gospel enough?

Well, they believe the gospel is enough But does the gospel is the gospel enough when it comes to race issues and things like that?

I'm like, yeah, bro It is that would I would like to hear what that I would like to hear what happens there so maybe maybe you could go but um, hopefully

Being able to call in and say a few words has has lowered the blood pressure just a little bit and it did

I did a few wolf house. Okay, you did some deep deep breaths and things like okay. All right. Good good We don't I don't want to be

I don't want to be held accountable because I would be blamed Yeah, yeah, you would I would be blamed there's and and yeah, that's just sort of how it works.

So Thanks for calling in bro Take care. All right. God bless All right, that pretty much takes us right to a perfect jumbo length anyway, uh, so we it's almost like we planned that which we didn't

Um, but thanks to both for calling in there at the end Not sure when on thursday

We'll let you know on thursday when we'll have an opportunity to come back via skype, uh from tucson

If everything works out, of course, I could have really lousy internet and who knows but we're gonna make an effort

And then we'll let you know whether next week we'll have a conversation on this subject. We'll see we hope we will