The Calvinism Debate with Michael Brown Pt 2

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I ignore those phone numbers. We're not going to be taking phone calls today. It is time for our debate with Dr.

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Michael Brown here on The Dividing Line. We're starting five minutes early so I can get the introductions in so that we have the full 90 minutes.

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Because of the format of the program, we're going to need all 90 minutes.

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Many of you heard the first two programs we did on Dr. Brown's program and the discussion we had.

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Then we decided it would be good to look at specific texts and do so we have a little more time.

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But I do emphasize the term little because here's the format for today's discussion and debate.

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Today we're looking at the three texts that I have chosen. John 6, 35 through 45.

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Romans 8, 28 through about 9, 24 or so. And Ephesians chapter 1, verses 4 through 14.

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Each one of us will have eight minutes. Eight minutes, my friends, is not a lot of time.

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When you're listening to a boring sermon, it might seem like an eternity, but it will not seem like much time today at all. We will each have eight minutes to provide our exegesis of the assigned text.

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Then we'll have four minutes each to ask questions of the other.

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We will stay in the order in which we're going. I'm going first this time around. Next time around,

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Michael will go first. We'll just keep that order. That's the only way to keep things straight and to keep the time frames correct as well.

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So we'll have four minutes to ask questions of the other on the specific statements made in our exegesis, obviously.

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Not about what we think about Obamacare or anything else. And then we will have three minutes each to make concluding statements on each of the texts.

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If my math is good, which it generally is not, that should be half an hour per text, which means 90 minutes for the three texts that we will be covering.

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I know it's not a lot of time, but it's more than you get in most webcasts and radio programs,

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I can assure you of that. Now, Dr. Michael Brown is founder and president of ICN Ministries.

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He is the president of the Fire School of Ministry. He is an Old Testament Semitic scholar holding a

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PhD in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University. He has served as a professor at Trinity, Fuller, Denver, and King Seminary, Regent University School of Divinity as well.

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Those of you who heard the initial encounters that we had know that they were, I think, done in a

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God -honoring way. We didn't compromise our positions, but we also did not condemn either one the other to the flames, which unfortunately is very common in these types of situations.

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And so our desire and our goal today is to clarify, not muddy, the issues.

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Obviously, you are the judges of this debate, as always must be in this situation.

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Of course, fundamentally, God is the judge of our hearts as we do the debates, but you are the judges of what we present.

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And it is our desire that the body of Christ be edified, caused to think about these things, think these things through for themselves.

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In fact, I'm not sure if I can say, think it through. Dr. Brown may have that particular phrase copyrighted.

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I'm not sure. But hopefully, he'll forgive me if I use it, because that is a documentary

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TV show, Jewish outreach program called Think It Through that he does. That's why I said that. Anyway, let's go ahead and bring

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Dr. Brown on. Michael, are you ready? Oh, James, I'm very ready.

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And I'm thrilled to be on the program with you. You know the utmost respect I have for you and your scholarship and debating techniques.

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And my prayer has been the same. Let God be glorified and his people be edified through our interaction. That's my desire as well.

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And of course, someone on the channel was asking if they could call in and ask you about Melchizedek. And I said, sure.

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You can call this program right after this one's over with. I'm sure he'd be happy to talk to you about Melchizedek all you want at that particular point in time.

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But with that, believe it or not, we've used up the five -minute introduction. So we're going to start in canonical order.

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John chapter 6 will be my text. And so with that, I'm going to go ahead and reach over.

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And go ahead and, yeah, that's right. We'll bring Dr. Brown up when I'm done speaking.

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And we're going to go ahead and get started with the debate right now with my eight -minute exegesis of John chapter 6.

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In John chapter 6, of course, we have the longest chapter in the Gospel of John. After the feeding of the 5 ,000, there have been men who have been looking for Jesus.

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They are actually seeking Jesus. They find Jesus in the synagogue Capernaum. These are called God -seekers.

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They're seeking after Jesus himself. And yet, after Jesus announces to them that he is the bread of life, and that the one coming to him will not hunger, and the one who believes in him will not thirst,

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Jesus says in verse 36 of John chapter 6, but I said to you that you have seen me, and yet do not believe.

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He identifies these men as unbelievers. And the rest must be seen.

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And he's explaining why it is that these men who want to make him king are going to, by the end of this chapter, walk away.

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Because Jesus is going to continually focus them upon himself as a source of spiritual life.

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It is in the context of saying, you do not believe. You are unbelievers. Verse 36,

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Egeus says, all that the Father gives me will come to me, and the one coming to me I will never cast out.

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Now, we all love that statement, the one coming to me I will never cast out. But it is part of a sentence. The reason that he will not cast out, the one coming to him, is because the

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Father has given them to him. Notice it says, all that the Father gives me will come to me.

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Now, there is a clear and basic rule of grammar here. The coming to the

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Son is predicated upon the giving of the Father. Which action comes first, that the

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Father has given someone to the Son, or that they are coming to the Son? Very clearly, it is the Father's action of giving to the

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Son that results in every single one thus given coming to the

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Son. Anyone who believes in a libertarian free will position needs to be able to explain how it is that the

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Father can give someone to the Son, and every one thusly given will come to the

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Son. But then the Son says, I will never, no never, error subjunctive of strong denial, cast out the one coming to me.

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Why? Because I have come down out of heaven, not in order to do my will, but the will of him who sent me.

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Once again, the unity of the Father and the Son expressed in verse 38. And then, what is the will of the one who sent him?

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Verse 39. This is the will of the one who sent me, in order that of all that he has given me,

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I lose none of it. Notice, now it's it. It's a group. The neuter wrapping up the entire group.

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I lose none of it, but raise it up on the last day. Being raised up on the last day, in John, especially in John 6, used of receiving eternal life.

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The will of the Father of the Son is that the Son lose none of those that are given to him.

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Here we have Jesus needing to be a perfect Savior. If it is the will of the

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Father for the Son, that he not lose any of those that are given to him. What must that mean about the power of the

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Son as Savior? He must have the capacity. He must have the power to save perfectly.

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I do not understand how that can be a synergistic salvation, since there may be one, there may be two, there may be a million who would say no, who would not cooperate, whatever else it might be.

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The result would be that Jesus would lose some of those that are given to him. But no, the will of the one who sent him is that of all that have been given him, he lose none, but raise them up on the last day.

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For this is the will of my Father, in order that everyone looking upon, present tense participle, looking upon the

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Son, and believing in him might have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. Notice the raising up on the last day.

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Who is it who looks upon the Son? Who is it who's believing upon the Son? The ones who have been given to the

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Son by the Father, the ones who are coming to him as a result. As a result of this teaching, however, the

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Jews are gungus mooing, they are grumbling. Who does man make himself out to be?

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We know his father and his mother. How does he say he's come down out of heaven? The grumbling goes on. Jesus answers them in verse 43 and says, do not grumble amongst yourselves.

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No one is able, udais dunatai, no one has the capacity, the ability to come to me unless something happens, unless there is a fulfillment.

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And what is that fulfillment? No one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

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Now, please note something about the text. Jesus does not seek to stop their grumbling on the basis of, oh, you don't understand, or, oh,

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I don't want you to be offended. No, he stops their grumbling by saying something that's even more offensive to them.

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In fact, if you look at the language here, you'll see that at the end of John chapter six, what offends the people and causes them to walk away is

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Jesus is repeating this. He's repeating this very point over and over again. No one can come to me unless it has been granted to him of the

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Father. And men find that to be highly offensive. They want salvation to be that which they are in control of.

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They can come to Jesus on their own grounds. No, Jesus says very, very clearly, no one is able to come to me unless the

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Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him on the last day.

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Now, who is he going to raise on the last day? Those that the Father gave to him in verse 37. Those that the

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Father's will that he lose none of them in verses 38 and 39. And so who is it that the

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Father draws the Son? The same group, the elect of God are the ones that are in line here.

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Remember, he's explaining why are these men unbelievers? Why are these individuals who are not willing to truly believe in Jesus Christ?

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Even though they've rowed boats across the lake, they've sought him out, yet he recognizes that they are not seeking him out for spiritual nourishment, but for physical nourishment.

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And so we need to take very seriously Jesus' words, no one is able to come to me unless something happens.

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And that which happens is not some kind of common grace situation, because it says, unless the

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Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. Most of the interpretations

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I've seen in this text try to get around the very particularity of this drawing of the elect unto Christ.

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Try to say, well, yeah, but there's two hymns here. Unless the Father draws him, and then

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I will raise him up at the last day is a different hymn. Because you see, it's the same hymn. And so if the

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Father draws everyone to Christ, then everyone's gonna be raised up the last day in salvation. If it's only a particular people that are drawn to Christ, then you have reformed theology.

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And so many people try to drive a wedge right into the middle of the text here and say, well, everyone's drawn, frequently jumping to John chapter 12 in a completely different context.

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And then only certain people are raised up because they have added their own personal faith, whatever else it might be.

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Verse 45 then just amplifies this, saying it is written in the prophets. They shall all be taught of God.

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Everyone hearing from the Father and learning from the Father is coming to me. Here's another description.

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What is involved in the drawing of the Father? It involves hearing and learning. And everyone who hears and learns from the

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Father, not everyone who chooses to accept something, everyone who hears and learns from the Father is coming to me.

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Those are the ones who will not be cast out. Now, this is not popular teaching because Jesus goes from having 5 ,000 excited followers, not including women and children at the beginning of John chapter 6, to having 12 confused followers, one of whom is a devil at the end of chapter 6, the beginning of the church shrinkage movement is how

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I've put it many times. And yet the reality is that what we have here is the proclamation on the part of the

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Lord Jesus in the Synagogue Capernaum of his own centrality in salvation and the sovereignty of the

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Father and the Son in saving perfectly a particular people under the glory of the triune

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God. All right, with that, believe it or not, that was eight minutes. And so let's move over to Dr.

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Brown. Dr. Brown, you have eight minutes as well. There you go. Thank you. All right, before we get to the section proper, it's already established in John that all who received him who believe in his name,

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God gives the right to become his children. John 1 .12, everyone who believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life.

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3 .16, the one who believes in the Son has eternal life, the one who rejects the Son will not see life.

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3 .36, whoever drinks some of the water I give him will never be thirsty again. 4 .14, the true worshipers will worship the

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Father in spirit and truth for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. Note that phrase, the Father seeks them.

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4 .23, 4 .35, the fields are white for harvest. And the

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Lord's intent is quite specific in 5 .34. I say these things so that you may be saved.

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Note also that many of the Jewish hearers use a rebuke for their unbelief and refusal to acknowledge Jesus. 5 .38,

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you do not have his word residing in you because you do not believe the one whom he sent. That's the continual argument.

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You are not really following the Father, that's why you're missing me. 5 .40, you are not willing, uthelite, to come to me so that you may have life.

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You do not accept me. 5 .43, 5 .44, how can you believe if you accept praise from one another and don't seek the praise that comes from the only

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God? 5 .44, and on with this in 5 .46 and 5 .47, if you really believe Moses, you'd believe me.

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So Jesus is clearly holding them responsible for their unbelief, pride, and unwillingness to come to him.

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6 .36, I told you that you have seen me and still you do not believe. And of course, when we get into 6 .35,

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the one who comes to me will never go hungry. The one who believes in me will never be thirsty. We have active present participles of coming and believing.

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Those are the ones who never go hungry and thirsty. And again, 6 .36, he's saying, you should have believed, but you don't.

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Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me. The one who comes to me, I will never send away. Who are the ones who were given, whom the

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Father now entrusts to the Son? Well, throughout the history of Israel, there was a remnant who sought after God, broken hearted, contrite, grieved over the sins of their nation.

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For example, Malachi 3 .16 -18, those who feared the Lord talked with each other. The Lord listened and heard.

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A scroll of remembrance was written in the presence, his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name.

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They will be mine, says the Lord, the day when I make up my treasured possession, et cetera. 57 .15,

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and Isaiah, the broken hearted and contrite dwell with him. Ezekiel 9 .3 -4, put a mark on those who grieve and lament.

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Jeremiah 24 .4 -7, which distinguishes the good figs from the bad. And then Luke 1 .17

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speaks of, regarding John the immerser, that he will come to a people prepared for the

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Lord. We also get a hint that there is this remnant who has been following the Father. They will now be entrusted to the

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Son, which is the whole concept in John's gospel. Matthew 21 .31 -32,

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I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. When John came to show you the way of righteousness, you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and prostitutes did.

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So we see the distinction, many verses, and right in John's gospel between those who repented and believed and those who refused to repent and believe, and it is the former, the humble and contrite, like the tax collector who said,

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God have mercy on me, a sinner, who are now given to Jesus for safekeeping by the Father. He entrusts the care of these people to the

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Messiah, the Good Shepherd. This is not a great distinction that's made among the Jewish people. Those who truly belong to God are given to the

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Son. And yes, verse 37b, Jesus will not drive us away from the table. This interpretation is also confirmed in verse 45, and it makes far more sense than importing an arbitrary predestination into the passage.

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638 and 39, I've come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

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The emphasis here is clearly on the keeping power of the Son of God. I'm not quoting the full text here for time's sake.

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We see the same thing in John 10, 27 through 29, and there are two possible ways to read this. That all those given to the

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Son will persevere and be infallibly saved, thus raised up at the last day, or that Jesus will do his part to keep and preserve those entrusted to him.

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Nothing can snatch us out of his hand. And yet those given to him can still turn away, as did

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Judas, of whom the Lord specifically says in John 17, 12, while I was with them, I was keeping them in your name, which you have given me, and I guarded them, and not one of them has perished or been lost, but the son of perdition, so that the scripture would be fulfilled.

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The sentiments expressed here in either case are similar to those in Philippians 1, 6, and 1 Corinthians 1, 8, which must be read along with other verses such as Colossians 1, 22, and 23, which speak of both

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God's ability to present us blameless before his throne and our responsibility to continue in our faith, established and firm, not moved from the whole hell out in the gospel.

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And Calvinists would say it is those who persevere to the end who are the truly saved. John 6, 40, early in this chapter throughout the book, we see that eternal life comes by faith, specifically in Jesus, as opposed to works.

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But we also see that it is persevering faith, it is the one who continues to look and continues to believe who has eternal life.

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Again, those, the true remnant, those following the Lord are the ones given to the son. 6, 41 to 44, once again,

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Jesus rebukes the pride of his hearers, they were ridiculing him, claiming he was speaking falsely. He informs them that unless God draws them to himself, they are utterly helpless to come.

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He was not mocking them, but telling them they needed God's help. As for verse 44, it is the one who was drawn and comes to Jesus who was raised up at the last day, as opposed to just the one drawn.

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It does not say here that all who are drawn will come. We can get into John 12, 32 later if necessary, but it's like saying you can't come to the party without being invited, but I assure you that everyone who was invited will have a great time, obviously, provided that they come.

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Notice also that we have a precedent for drawing. Nets can be dragged, but people are drawn.

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We have Hosea 11, 4, and Jeremiah 31, 3, the latter verse,

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Ken Mishathith Chesed, I've drawn you with loving kindness. God pulls nets,

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God draws people to himself with loving kindness. And interestingly, God's drawing can be resisted in Nehemiah 9, 29, and 30.

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Again, using the same Greek word, for drawing, the Septuagint, 9, 30. Look at this, 9, 29, and 30, and you warn them in order to turn them back to your law.

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So God's intent in warning was to turn people back, yet they acted presumptuously and did not obey your commandments, but sinned against your rules, which if a person does them, he shall live by them.

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They turned to stubbing shoulders, stiffened their neck, and would not obey. So God draws them.

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Here's what it says, many years you bore with them, in Hebrew, literally, he drew them, okay? And again, we have halkuo, draw, in the

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Greek, you warn them by your spirit, yet they would not give ear. So there's complete inability to come unless drawn.

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Those who are drawn and respond, we see earlier Jesus saying you wouldn't respond, you're not listening, he's rebuking them for it, you're not willing to come.

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Those who are drawn and respond have the promises and will be raised up the last day. 645, it is written in the prophets, they will all be taught by God, everyone who hears and learns from the

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Father comes to me. So we now have a specific description of those who come to Jesus.

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It is those who hear and learn from the Father. This is in keeping with our initial argument that those who are given to Jesus by the

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Father, all of them then come to the Son, are those whose hearts have been prepared, those who receive

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God's testimony, those who truly believe the Torah's truths. These are the ones who are now given to the

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Son, again, the ones who have been loyal to the Father and now entrusted to the Son, so that the true worshippers of Yahweh, the ones that he seeks, are now identified as followers of Jesus.

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As noted by Barnabas Linders, the point is that all those who do respond to the Father or are drawn by him come to Jesus because of the unique prerogatives which he has from the

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Father. And then if we just continue on verses 47 to 51, we see that Jesus is inviting, he's giving an altar call.

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Okay, Mike, we ran out of time there. Do you want me to give you any time, warnings or anything like that?

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No, I was looking at my stopwatch. I must have looked wrong. Okay, all right, no problem. All right, we're just got such a tight time schedule.

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I just didn't know if you wanted me to do that. We have more warnings against apostasy in Hebrews than anywhere else.

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And the text I quoted from John 17, Judas was lost, but that was by his own choosing to refuse

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God's grace. In verse 44, you seemed to be indicating that's this on the basis of Nehemiah, that the drawing of the

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Father can somehow be refused. How do you explain the fact that all those who are drawn by the

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Father are raised up by the Son? No, it's not all those drawn by the Father. It's all those who are drawn and come.

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We see several times the Hebrew mashach and then hakuah used in the Septuagint for a drawing of Israel that is refused.

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So we don't have to try to figure out prior usage. We already have it in the Septuagint and in the Hebrew backdrop to that.

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But again, just the analogy, everyone who's invited, you can't come to the party unless you're invited. Everyone invited will have a great time provided that you come.

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So everyone that the Father gives to Jesus will come to him, but not everyone who is drawn will come.

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However, without him drawing us, we have no possible hope of coming. Okay, your turn. All right, where do we go here?

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So we just covered some of the questions I was gonna ask you. Can you show me through other scriptures that God's drawing cannot be resisted?

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Well, what I want to do is exegesis of the specific texts. And if we wanted to go into that, we could go into that.

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Did you have anything specific in the text? And if not, then I guess we can do that. But my hope had been really to be focused upon exegesis in this particular encounter.

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In John 6, I would say that the clear evidence of this is the fact that you have a consistent testimony throughout this section, talking about a specific group that are given by the

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Father to the Son. Their coming to the Son is the result of their having been given by the Father.

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They're raised up on the last day, and the Son perfectly fulfills the Father's will in saving all of those that have been given to him, not based upon God's foreknowledge of who would actually believe, but I believe based upon God's sovereignty in giving a particular people to the

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Son. And so that drawing of verse 44 becomes the teaching, which is really what happens in regeneration, the revelation of Jesus Christ in verse 45.

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So there's obviously a difference between a drawing in some other context that's not talking about the specific work of the

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Spirit of God in drawing people to Christ, and this specific text, where you have this repeated emphasis over it.

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All, all, all, it's right there in the text. Right, of course, when we get to the all in John 12, 32, with drawing the identical two words there, which are quite striking, you want to interpret them differently.

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I guess when I do exegesis, my approach as a philologian is to try to look for word usage and see what concepts can be brought into this passage with prior understanding.

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Well, did Jesus ever lose anyone? What of John 17, 12? Well, John 17 specifically states that he is the son of perdition.

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So the idea that the son of perdition was given to him for salvation when he's the son of perdition doesn't make any sense. These men were given to him, but he was,

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Jesus was never given to him for salvation, obviously, because he's called the son of perdition. But the philologically speaking, you just mentioned, you know, you want to look at what concepts can be brought in, but on that same basis,

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John chapter 12 is in a specific context of Greeks coming to Jesus. Greeks that Jesus does not reveal himself to.

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And so I believe context is absolutely central in lexical semantics and in determining how a term is being used, and therefore the range of meaning that could be assigned to any of those terms.

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And that's certainly the case in John chapter 12. I don't think we can take that and read it back into John chapter six as if it would have had any meaning to the people that Jesus was speaking to.

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And since they walk away when Jesus repeats this concept to them in John 6 .65, if he was understanding it in the

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John 12 .32 passage, why didn't he stop them? But he doesn't. Oh, no, they're refusing his grace.

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Again, I do see overwhelmingly the immediate context leading up to this. You will not come. You refuse to come.

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You will not believe he's chastising and forcing. Those who truly will listen to my father will come, but I suspect we're out of time on the four minutes here.

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No, actually, we still got about 45 seconds, but I'd like to comment on what you just said. I do not, obviously, the reformed person says, you bet, they are not willing to come.

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Why are they not willing to come? Because all that the father gives me will come to me. You are not willing to come because there's an inability.

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John chapter eight, he brings this out. Those who are of God hear the words of God. The reason you don't hear me is because you are not of me.

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And you're refusing to listen. So when he says, I say these things to you so that you may be saved in the fifth chapter, does he mean that or not?

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He means that to those that the spirit is going to draw to him. Preaching is always used as the means by which the elect people are brought into relationship with Jesus Christ.

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All right, that ended up our time. Now resetting for three o 'clock, three minutes. I'll have my three minutes, and then

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Michael will have his as well, starting right now. Well, once again, my primary desire here is to exegete these specific texts, not the whole concept, and go into many, many different texts in many, many different places in the

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Bible. Because I think that's where confusion comes in. And once again, when we go back to John chapter six,

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I think what we've seen here is, well, I believe that there is a remnant. Well, I do too. But the remnant was a remnant according to grace.

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It was remnant, God is the one who reserved these people. I'm concerned that it almost sounded like, well, there were some people who were better than other people, and they continued to follow

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Torah, and they continued to follow God. I would say that the remnant itself, at any point in time, the 7 ,000 did not bow their knees to Baal, did so solely on the basis of grace.

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And it was God who specifically chose those individuals. It wasn't that God wanted to have 17 ,000, but he can only come up with 7 ,000 because they were the only ones that would synergistically cooperate with him.

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But to insert this into the text here without providing a foundation in the text is what is concerning to me.

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When we look at the explanation that Jesus is giving, why is it these men have seen him, and yet they have not believed?

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Because they have not been given by the Father to the Son. That is why they do not believe.

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They grumble, and Jesus says, stop your grumbling. You don't need to be grumbling because you need to understand no one has the ability to come to me unless the

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Father who sent me draws him. Now, was the statement being made that God draws all men without distinction to the

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Son, or does he draw specific people? The drawing here does not in any way, shape, or form have any escape clause.

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God is sovereign in this matter. That's why Jesus saves all those that are given to him. And the one who is drawn, notice the emphasis became no one is able to come to me unless the

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Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him on the last day. Who? The one who comes, not the one who's drawn.

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You see, this is just a different way of reading the text. And when you come to the text with the idea that the key in verse 44 is my coming,

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God can draw, but I have to come to fulfill that rather than seeing no one has the ability to do this unless the

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Father who sent me draws him, and then what does verse 45 tell us? All that are drawn by the

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Father. That's the learning and the hearing. All that are drawn by the Father come to me, not just some, but all that are drawn by the

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Father. That's what hearing and learning from the Father is. And so the consistent reading of the text exegetically in its context speaks to us of the sovereignty of God and salvation, the perfection of the work of Christ.

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And once again, the focus is either upon God's accomplishment in Jesus Christ or what

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God's attempting to do in Jesus Christ, but that he doesn't always accomplish that. That would be a very different reading of the text.

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Okay, and now three minutes for Michael Brown. Go ahead. God's accomplishment is perfect that all those who believe in his

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Son will be truly and forever saved, and God fully accomplishes what he has established.

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A profound difference I think we're having in the approach to exegesis is if I'm gonna exegete

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John six, I'm gonna start in John one one, and I'm gonna go from there, and I see overwhelmingly an invitation to all.

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I see the whosoever calls, and I see on top of it that the very people that are not believing, the very people in John five, religious leaders and others who are not believing,

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Jesus is calling them to himself. Again, I repeat what he says in John five, I say these things to you, 534, so that you may be saved.

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Who? Those of you who are in unbelief, those of you who think you're right with God and are not, those of you who are not part of the remnant, those of you who didn't listen when

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John, the baptizer came and preached and humbled yourself, those are the ones that he is persistently calling to himself, and we see the calling continue in verses 47 to 51, as I began to quote before running out of time, that Jesus is saying there, come to me, believe in me, and that's why the whosoever verses are so powerful and profound throughout

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John. So those who truly humble themselves, those who believe it's not by works, and that's the great lesson in John six, they keep understanding on a carnal level, they were seeking him outwardly, he was seeking to get them to seek the other way by putting off their wrong understanding, by rebuking their wrong understanding, by showing them that their belief in their self -sufficiency couldn't possibly work, and the reason that they can't hear it is because they're not truly listening to the father, so what's he saying?

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Ah ha ha ha, you don't get in, the father's not drawing you, sorry, boys, no, he's saying humble yourselves and listen and believe whoever believes will come, and we don't know that later on some of those very same people did eventually turn and come.

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So we cannot come unless drawn, those that respond to the drawing by faith, which is the universal way in throughout the

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Gospel of John and everywhere else, those who receive God's witness in Jesus are then given to the son and he will keep us safely to the end.

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If we get out of Jesus, renounce him, deny him, he has not failed in any way, he has given us a door, if we want to depart from him, those that put their trust in him, he will never fail, he will keep us safely to the end.

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When God finishes, he starts perfectly and the door is open, whoever will can come.

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All righty, thank you very much, you're listening to a debate between James White and Michael Brown, the next section of the debate, half an hour on Romans chapter eight, beginning at verse 28 and I will begin my eight minutes right now.

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In this tremendous text, we have the sovereignty of God laid out with explicit clarity.

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We are told that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called, according to his purpose and then we have the golden chain of redemption, beginning with God foreknowing, foreknowing is an active verb, it is not merely having foreknowledge, it is not looking down the corridors of time, it is an action of God and every time

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God takes this action, when God is the one who takes the action, it is a personal object that receives this action and you foreknow someone, you don't foreknow what someone is going to do, at least when

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God does it and so on the basis of his choosing to enter into relationship with someone, just as he chose

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Israel, just as he chose Jeremiah, he predestined them to be conformed in the image of his son, those whom he predestined, he called, those whom he called, he justified, those whom he justified, he glorified, the golden chain of redemption gives us the absolute sovereignty of God in his accomplishment of his own self -glorification in the salvation of a specific people, as a result, he says, what shall we say these things?

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If God is for us, who is against us? He did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all, who is the us all?

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The us all are the same people that have been discussed before, how will he not also with him freely give us all things?

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Who is the us? Verse 33, who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies.

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The same group is in view here all the way through. It is God who's called, it is God who's justified, it's

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God who's glorified, it's God who's given his son in behalf of us all. He has also given to us freely all things.

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God is the one who's justified his elect people. No one can condemn his elect people. Christ Jesus is he who died, yes, rather, who was raised, who's the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

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For whom does the son of God intercede? But for a specific people by name, not just a nebulous synergistic group, but by name a specific group of people.

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And it is those people who then can claim the beautiful words of Romans 8 .35 and following about never being separated from the love of Christ.

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It was in that context then that chapter nine begins and Paul talks about the fact that he wished that he could himself were a curse, separated from Christ for the sake of his brethren, his kinsmen according to flesh, for the

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Israelites to have all these great benefits. But then he makes a very strong statement. Verse nine, chapter nine, verse six, it is not as though the word of God has failed for they are not all

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Israel who are descended from Israel. This is the key to the interpretation of Romans chapter nine.

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This is not about nations. This is not about privilege. This is not about blessings. It is the fact that from the very beginning,

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God's promises and God's salvation has been freely given by God himself on his own grounds.

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Not on our grounds, not on anything that we can do, nor are they all children because they're

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Abraham's descendants, but through Isaac your descendants will be named. That is, it is not the children of flesh who are children of God, but the children of promise.

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God is the one who gives the promise. And so that is traced through. And notice how personal all this is.

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When people try to turn this into nations, notice how personal all this is. Verse 10, and not only this, there is Rebecca also.

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When she conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac, for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose, according to his choice, would stand not because of works, but because of him who calls.

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It was said to her, the older will serve the younger. Just as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

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What's the center here? God's purpose, according to his choice. Not man's purpose. It is specifically being contrasted in this particular text.

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What then shall we say? Immediately the Apostle Paul brings up the objections. And we want to make sure that we are not making the same objections that the

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Apostle is responding to. What shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness with God?

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May it never be. For he says to Moses, I will mercy whom I mercy, and I will harden, and I will have compassion upon whom

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I have compassion. In other words, it's God who can freely give his mercy. Mercy that has to be demanded.

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Mercy, you say God has to be merciful to every person equally is not true mercy.

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That's not true compassion. Verse 16 says, so then, the apostolic interpretation of that text is, therefore, it does not depend on the one willing, neither on the one running, but on the mercying

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God. What's he talking about here? Is he talking about nations? Or is he talking about individuals?

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Is he talking, what's mercy needed for? What is this willing? What is this striving? This all has to do with salvation.

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For the scriptures say of Pharaoh, for this very reason, I raised you up, to do what? To demonstrate my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.

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As a result of that statement, remember, Pharaoh was raised up for what? For judgment. Not for salvation, but for judgment.

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He dies in the Red Sea along with his army. And what is the apostolic interpretation of this?

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So then, he has mercy on whom he wishes. Therefore, let's again, again, the

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English doesn't do well. He mercies whom he wishes, and he hardens whom he wishes.

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Parallel phraseology in verse 18. This is God's absolute freedom, because when it comes to the matter of mercy, we have transcended justice.

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God must be just and bring punishment against every sinner. Mercy and grace goes beyond those categories.

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And immediately, the objector, seeing this, brings up the objection that, well, we hear all the time.

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Verse 19, you will say to me then, why does he still find fault, for who resists his will? If his will is so sovereign, if his will is so powerful, who can possibly resist his will?

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And Paul gives a stunning answer. Oh man, who are you who is answering back to God?

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He reminds man of what he is and who God is. The thing molded will not say to the molder, why did you make me like this?

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And that is where we stumble, because we do not like the idea that God is our creator.

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We do not like the idea that God is the one who is the potter and we are the clay.

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Why did you make me like this? Will it or does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable or common use?

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What if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, things that he must do, this is what he's chosen to do, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

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The parallel has to be that this is the dishonorable use that the potter has for lumps of clay, prepared for destruction.

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And he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he called not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

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Notice that last phrase from all mankind. There is your all, there is your, the whole world right there, whom he has called not from among Jews only, but from also among Gentiles.

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Clearly in this passage, we have God's absolute sovereignty laid out. There is no break.

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There is no hiding from this drumbeat of God's freedom when it comes to the expression of his mercy and his grace.

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Yes, God has the right to demonstrate. God has the right to demonstrate his power and to make his wrath known as he sees fit.

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And the same way he has the right to demonstrate and make known his mercy and his grace as he sees fit as well.

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All right, eight minutes. I'm gonna take a breath, your turn. All right, beginning with the phrase for those whom he foreknew.

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This could potentially refer to a choosing based on foreknowledge. You have first Peter one, one and two, where the believers are elect according to foreknowledge with a prior example found in Genesis 18, 19 with Yadah in Hebrew.

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Or it could refer to God's corporate electing of a people, acknowledging them as his covenant partners. It is his plan, as in Ephesians one, to have a people who will be conformed to the image of a son.

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As to how an individual becomes part of this corporate body, Paul has told us repeatedly, they are those who are justified by faith.

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Note that the saving faith is mentioned 17 times in 321 to 425 alone. There is no mystery here.

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So the basic program then for this people, that the destiny of those, so to say, on the ship is set forth in verses 29 and 30, predestined to become like Jesus, called, meaning designated as God's own, called as sons and daughters, just as Abraham's seed was called or named through Isaac in 9 -7, identical

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Greek, justified, again, we know how this process takes place, and glorified, probably nomic aorist referring to what

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God does with this group. So one possible reading of the text,

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God foresaw everyone who would believe in his son and chose them, those who believe and persevere to the end.

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Or on another possible reading, which I have no problem with, God chose a corporate people, this church, Messianic Congregation, and established a program for the redemption from beginning to end, and all those who remain in that people will see that destiny fulfilled.

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Verses 31 to 39, just as in John 6 and 10 and other New Testament passages,

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Jesus will keep us safely to the end, and nothing has the power to pull us away from him unless we ourselves decide to renounce him and turn our backs on him.

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As Grant Osborne notes, the lists in this section are all pressures outside the person.

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A host of New Testament passages, not to mention the example of Israel in the Old Testament, remind us that apostasy is possible for the

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New Testament believer. As expressed by B .J. Orpeza, the readers as individuals could take comfort in the promises of this passage, but only as they are identified as members of the

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Christian community. And when we get to chapter nine, verses one through five, Paul expresses the terrible pain he experiences because of the state of his people.

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The ancient covenant people longing for their salvation. Presumably, he shared God's heart in this.

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It seemed that God's word had failed. The Messiah came and God's covenant promises to Israel were not realized. So Paul explains in nine, six through eight that there is an

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Israel within Israel, those who are circumcised in the heart according to the language of Romans two. As he states in nine, eight, this means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

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But it's here that Calvinists misread Paul's intent, interpreting the verses that follow as if they pertain primarily to individual salvation, rather than to God's corporate purposes.

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And it's important that we look at carefully at Paul's citations from the Old Testament, since roughly one third of all of his citations are found in Romans nine through 11.

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To emphasize the corporate nature of the discussion here, note that in chapters nine through 11, Paul never once uses the word

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Jew, but speaks of Israel 11 times. Whereas outside of nine through 11, he never once uses the word

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Israel in Romans. This is an issue of corporate calling and corporate purpose, and it's those who hold to faith who will be part of that corporate chosen people.

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Verses 10 through 13, note that the first verse cited is from Genesis 25, 23, two nations are in your room, two peoples from within you shall be divided, the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.

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So this is dealing with two nations, not two individuals. And note, of course, that Esau did not serve

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Jacob in his lifetime, but his descendants were subjugated by the Israelites. The second citation is from Malachi 1, 2, speaking of the nations of Israel and Edom.

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Surely not all Israelites were saved, and not all Edomites were damned. The same could be said of all

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Ishmaelites, surely not all of them were damned. And even if one argued that corporate calling made salvation more readily available, it remains true that participation in the national promises was by faith, and foreigners by that same faith could be part of the chosen people, even in Old Testament times.

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Now the objections that are raised beginning in verses 14 to 16. Jewish person could protest here that by claiming that God wasn't being fair.

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After all, they were the chosen people, believing they had special privileges by ancestry or works. Not so, says

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Paul. Carrying out the imagery of God loving Jacob, Paul emphasizes that God has mercy on whoever he wants to.

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There's nothing a human being can do to get into a place of God's favor without him first having mercy. At this point, however, it's important to remember that the subject of election is simply a sub -theme of the larger question of God's dealing with Israel.

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And so chapter nine must be read in the context of nine through 11. And the conclusion of Paul's discussion is glorious indeed.

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Upon whom will God have mercy? Everyone, 11 .32. For God has consigned all to disobedience.

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All human beings are consigned to disobedience that he may have mercy on all. As noted by F .F.

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Bruce, in some schools of theological thought, unfortunately, the doctrine of election has been formulated too much on the basis of this preliminary stage of Paul's present argument without adequate account being taken of his further exposition of God's purpose in election at the conclusion of the argument.

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In point of fact, this appears with blessed clarity later in Paul's argument, God's grace is far wider than anyone could have dared to hope.

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Even the citation from Exodus 33 .19 is in the context of God saying, okay, I will not destroy the whole nation as you have pleaded for mercy.

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I will have mercy. 9 .17 and 18. Now we begin to see exactly how

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God deals with people as already described in Romans 1. Those who refuse his grace are hardened as in the

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Exodus narrative with Pharaoh where he hardens his heart numerous times, Pharaoh does before God stiffens his resistance using a series of progressively stronger words.

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The first really meaning that God strengthened Pharaoh's resolve to sin. As for Pharaoh himself, as emphasized by Paul's quotation from the

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Septuagint, Craig Keener commented, apparently God chose this Pharaoh not so that an honorable man would become stubborn but so that God would judge a wicked leader revealing

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God's power. So he has mercy on him every wills and he hardens him every wills. Certainly does not apply to arbitrary acts of God in terms of individual salvation.

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The testimony of so much of the rest of scripture is against this idea. His mercy is free and undeserved.

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His hardening is utterly righteous that both are his prerogative. Within a verse 19, you'll say to me then, why does he find fault for who can resist his will?

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This actually forms a close parallel to 3 .5. But if our righteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, our unrighteousness rather serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say that God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us?

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On the one hand, Paul could say, yes, people reject God's purposes, Luke 7 .30. But no, Paul is after the deeper argument rebuking this arrogant attitude that would dare charge

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God with justice. Verses 20 through 24. On the one hand, Paul is simply saying,

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God can do whatever he wants to do. And if he wants to save some, damn others, that's his right. But if we go deeper into the text, we see a few things.

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First, we see that as we go on in Romans 9 .31, 32, and thereafter, the

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Israelites did not pursue righteousness by faith, but as it were by works. So that's why they've stumbled. We see at the end of the 10th chapter of Israel, he says, all day long,

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I've held up my hands to a disobedient and contrary people. And he speaks of trespass, rejection, unbelief.

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In point of fact, the strongest Potter image in scripture is Jeremiah 18, where God lays out his principle.

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He can do whatever he wants to do. When he decrees destruction, if people will repent, he will have mercy. So there are those who set themselves up now as objects of wrath and are hence prepared for destruction.

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But God's desire is that they turn and repent just as he put up patiently with the past objects of wrath.

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Then in the Gentiles, we Ephesians two, by nature objects of wrath. God in his patience puts up with us, offering us repentance.

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And the bottom line is, if we respond in faith, he will have mercy. It is a desire to have mercy on all.

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Okay, four minutes for me to ask questions. You indicated that at the beginning of Romans chapter eight, verse 28, the foreknowing section, would you agree that this is an active verb and that every time

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God uses it, the object is a personal? Yeah, I would say that primarily the usage is active.

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In other words, it's not that he foreknew something about someone, but that he chose a certain people in advance.

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And it could be based on things he knows about them or not. That's not said, but yes, primarily it's speaking of choosing out of people in advance.

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Is justification a personal or a corporate thing from your perspective? It is personal and it is the way that all of us get into the corporate body whom

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God has predestined. Okay, but each of the events of the golden chain in verse 30, calling, justification, glorification, are personal in their actual consummation and occurrence in time.

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Yes, in terms of our experience, yes. In terms of God's predestining, as we'll see clearly in Ephesians one, it's always a corporate people.

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There's never an example of him predestining one individual to salvation and another individual to damnation.

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Okay, the text that says that God did not spare his own son but delivered him over for us all.

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Would you not agree that Paul limits the us all here to God's elect? In that particular context, us all is specifically referring to all of us who are believers.

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In other contexts, the all in atonement and redemption that we'll get into next week with texts

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I'm asking you to exegete, those speak of his love for the entire world. But they're in context here, us all, absolutely.

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The son was given for every single believer, all of us without exception, yes sir. In light of that though, if you believe that he's also given for others, and it says in verse 34, who also intercedes for us, is it your position that this means that he's interceding, that this is just a statement that, yes, he's interceding for us, the same way he's interceding for, say, the

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Philistines or the Amorites? I would certainly see a different intercession for those who are within the body and those who have not yet come.

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And the primary emphasis of Jesus' intercession is for his own, but since he shed his blood for the entire world and weeps and mourns for the entire world, there's certainly an intercession for the entire world, but in the context here, it's an intercession particularly for us, and I'm sure there is a particular kind of intercession that is unique to us as God's children.

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So there are multiple kinds of intercession, is that what I just understood you to say? That's what I see everywhere else in Scripture.

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I would certainly believe it applies to the Son of God as well. So the high priest, as he intercedes, intercedes differently for believers, but he also intercedes for unbelievers?

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I'm just trying to figure out what you mean by that. Yes, certainly, just as we do. We pray that people will come to the Lord, we pray that the

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Holy Spirit will convict them of sin, we pray that God will draw them, and then we pray in particular for those within, that God will keep them strong, et cetera.

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Just like in Galatians 6, to do good to everyone, but in particular to those of the household of faith. So I would say that we pray in ways very similar to the intercession of Jesus, except not with his effectuality and perfection.

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Okay, I'm trying to understand, in Romans 9, you said that God chose a dishonorable pharaoh rather than an honorable pharaoh.

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Did God have to sort of wait for a dishonorable pharaoh to come along? Or I'm confused by what you mean by that, since the pharaohs were the head of the pagan religions of Israel and hence, of Egypt, hence any pharaoh would be dishonorable for a holy

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God, wouldn't he? Well, you could have had a foreigner that was a God seeker, you could have had someone who was responding to the light and revelation that was given.

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Not everyone is as hard or wicked, not everyone is a Hitler in that sense. God could have had someone die in infancy and another pharaoh be raised up.

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And again, Paul quotes the Septuagint, which is that God raised him up for this purpose.

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So he was the right man for the job, just like Nebuchadnezzar, my servant. God's infinite wisdom is gonna use the right people to accomplish his divine purposes.

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Okay, it's your turn. Okay, thank you. So is there any basis on which

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God chooses people, on which he foreknows? Yes, the good pleasure of his will.

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And nothing beyond that? Nothing beyond that, never. Okay, I understood you to say that, but just wanted it said more explicitly.

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Let's go to the climax of the discussion that God has bound all men over to disobedience, that he may have mercy on them all.

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Doesn't it follow that the same ones that he has bound over to disobedience, which is every human being on the planet, those are the ones on whom he wants to have mercy?

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No, because that would make me a universalist. The mercy of God in Romans chapter nine actually results in salvation.

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And so, no, I would clearly differentiate just as Romans five does, in recognizing that while all have sinned in Adam, the justification of life is only for those who are in Jesus Christ.

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So the distinction has already been made long before we get to Romans 11. I think it's reading the text backwards to come up with a conclusion out of Romans 11, then read it back in Romans nine,

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Romans eight and Romans five. The distinctions are made before we get to Romans 11. I don't think that the audience is gonna be confused as to what he's referring to.

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He's talked about Jews and Gentiles as those who are the recipients of God's grace already. So the all means some

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Jews and some Gentiles. Yeah, that's what the world is, is Jews and Gentiles from the biblical perspective.

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But the consign to disobedience and then the mercy on them only means some Jews and some

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Gentiles. Yes, God obviously has the right to show mercy and love to those who chooses to do so.

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And unless we are universalists and believe that that mercy is simply being shown, but not, how does mercy, this is why

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I tried to translate this way in Romans nine. Mercy is a verb, it's an active verb. Now we say have mercy because we don't have a verbal form to mercy someone.

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But as you know, the verb in Romans nine is he mercies freely.

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He chooses those whom he mercies. And so it's not show mercy as in show oneself to be merciful towards someone if they will do something.

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It is actually mercy someone. And so if we're gonna take Romans 11 and say, well, we're just gonna create an equation here.

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We're gonna ignore the distinctions that have already been made up to this point and say he's going to mercy everyone, then that's the only foundation

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I've ever found for universalism. And I'm not a universalist and neither are you, so. All right, okay, just for time's sake, let me move on.

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I'd like to pursue that maybe face -to -face. We can do that one day. When you say that the

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Old Testament texts are not speaking of nations and yet the citations refer to nations and then specifically Jacob, I love you, so I hate it.

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A national word in Malachi one, does that mean that all the descendants of Jacob are loved and all the descendants of Jacob are hated, therefore all

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Edomites are damned? No, I just don't think that that's the way Paul is using the text at all. The apostolic interpretation of those

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Old Testament texts is not one that says I'm going to take these as in reference to nations.

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I'm going to demonstrate that God has always had the freedom to choose his people freely and he has done so from the beginning and he did so with Isaac.

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That's why it's specifically, and I emphasize this, specifically before the twins had done anything good or bad, not before the nations had done anything good or bad, but for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad so that God's purpose according to his choice would stand, not because of works.

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I mean, talk about belaboring yourself. Not because of works, but because of him who calls, it was said to her, the older will serve the younger,

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Jacob I love, but you saw I hated. The argument is with Paul's utilization of the Malachi text, not with anything else.

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So what does it mean? Okay, we're, okay, sorry. Unfortunately, that's the case. I knew it was coming up.

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That's all right. All right, all right, three minutes, three minutes closing statements from each of us. I get to go first again, then next week, just for those of you listening, that will be reversed in case any of you are thinking that's unfair or something, et cetera, et cetera.

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Three minutes. I believe the text is very, very, very clear and once again,

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I have attempted to follow the flow as quickly as I possibly could all the way through.

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And I believe once again, if we look at the emphasis of the text itself, it's what

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God has done, not what God has made possible, but what God has done. God foreknows, God predestines,

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God calls, God justifies, God glorifies. Jesus intercedes and I think it would be very interesting someday to find out how it is that from the

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Old Testament, we can get the idea that the high priest did different kinds of intercession. I thought he offered only one sacrifice and I thought it was only for those who drew near, but we have this idea of multiple kinds of intercession being brought up and it is because Jesus intercedes and it's because God as judge has said that we are righteous and no one can bring a charge against God's elect and that includes the elect,

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I might note in the process who have been changed with the spirit of God and hence they're not going to bring about their own destruction in that way, meaning that apostasy has to do with those who have a false faith, not those who've been given by the

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Father to the Son. Then in Romans nine, Paul is explaining, well if this is true, then why do so few

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Jews relative to the entire number of Jews believe? And Paul is explaining that this has always been the case, it is not just being a descendant of Abraham that makes you of the covenant people.

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Before the twins were born, God freely chose the one to whom the promises would be given and the personal application, my assertion is that it's the apostolic interpretation of these texts that is so clear, he's not applying these to nations, he's not applying these to just privileges or anything of the kind and if we'll allow the distinctions that have been raised, that the potter has the right over the clay to make one for honorable use and the other for dishonorable use and then we follow those distinctions into 10 and 11 rather than going to the end of 11, coming up with a lack of distinction there and reading it backwards.

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Again, this is not how exegesis is done since John, I'm sorry, Paul has already made the distinction in Romans five, you have the two humanities, one in Adam, one in Christ.

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Here in Romans nine, you have the potter determining the vessels of honor, the vessels of dishonor, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

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We have to allow those particular distinctions to continue throughout the text and when we do so, we understand why it is that the objector says, how does he still find fault for who resists his will and the answer remains the same, who are you, oh man, not who are you, oh nation, but who are you, oh man, who answers back to God the thing molded will not say to the molder, why did he make me like this, singular.

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That's the application here, that's why Romans nine has for so many years been so clear in making this testimony and will continue to do so as long as the

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Lord tarries. All right, three minutes and it's back to you, Michael. All right, thank you.

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We've got to look at what Paul's after here in Romans nine through 11. And this is his section where he deals specifically with Israel, which is a fundamental part of his gospel,

01:00:29

Romans 116, the gospel is the power of God's salvation to everyone who believes, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile and the question of privilege and the question of national inheritance and the question of why haven't things panned out as expected.

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I would point out first that Paul's broken heart for his people makes no sense when he's about to argue, according to the

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Calvinistic interpretation, hey, God damns who he wants to damn and saves who he wants to save.

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And Paul is defending that, well, right here, he's broken heart and saying, I wish I could cut myself off from my people, why?

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Because God is longing for his people to come back as we have text after text after text in the

01:01:04

Old Testament where he says, even when I rebuke you, my heart longs for you. I desire to see you come back, why will you die,

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O house of Israel? That's a foundation that no one can argue with that's come emphatically up to this point.

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It's also important when Paul's raising a hypothetical argument, what if God wants to do this? Again, he doesn't specifically say it, he could have said it more profoundly, but he says, what if God did this?

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What if he did that? Well, let's just keep reading to see what the conclusion is. What we see in Romans the 11th chapter is that Israel, which is hardened right now, and Israel, which is now an object of wrath, according to Paul, if individual

01:01:42

Israelites will turn and believe because it's by faith and not by works, if they will turn and they will believe, then, praise

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God, they can be grafted back in. And as to the Gentiles who are now part of this privileged family, and the thing that to the

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Jews seems so unfair and not right, if they do not continue in faith, they will be cut off.

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That's what Paul lays out. It's also critically important to see, as we continue, first, the emphasis of the verses cited, it's not just the apostate interpretation, it's where they understand the scriptures properly or not.

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So before Jacob and Esau were born, God chose out a destiny for Jacob's people and Esau's people, having nothing to do with either one of them.

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The elder serving the younger does not happen in their individual lives, it happens in the lives of their descendants.

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Not only so, if Esau is hated, then why does he receive blessing from Isaac, hate it in the sense of reject it as a person?

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That's certainly not what was being understood, and Paul would not be violating the original text with his apostolic interpretation.

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If that was the case, he would then be a false prophet, no Jew should rightly listen to him. I think, though, it's important that we keep reading beyond when

01:02:51

Paul says the potter has the right, and again, I draw everyone back to Jeremiah 18, where the potter's sovereign right is laid out, and then the context is, if I prepare a vessel for destruction, if I prepare a disaster for a people, if they will repent,

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I will relent, and I have the privilege to do that as potter, that's what God is saying. But when we continue, the rest of Romans nine, if we just keep reading the immediate context,

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Paul doesn't say, well, the Israelites missed it because God destined them to miss it, he says, no, they did not pursue righteousness by faith, but as it were, based on works, they've stumbled over the somewhat stone.

01:03:25

Okay, thank you very much. We're actually, believe it or not, we're two minutes behind, I'm not sure how we did that, but we better hurry up, or you're gonna be just transitioning right into your own programs.

01:03:35

Yeah, and I can do Ephesians one in slightly less time, perhaps, perhaps.

01:03:41

We'll see, I doubt either one of us will do that. All right, now we turn to Ephesians chapter one, last round of the three rounds today, my eight minutes begins now.

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Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the one who blessed us, and please notice throughout this text, the direct objects of the blessings and actions of God will be personal.

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They will not be an impersonal group. That is a group, we are talking about the people of God, but that is always personal, and what happens in the blessings that are given, the things that happen, the forgiveness of sins cannot be understood outside of individuals being known to God.

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It's not that God blesses just a generic group, but it is a group that is chosen by God.

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The blessings that are given to us and all spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ throughout this text is only in Christ.

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There is no pluralism to be found in Ephesians chapter one, just as he chose us in him, not as he chose him, and then we can get in or out of him by our choice.

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The direct object of the choosing of God before the foundation of the world is us.

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It is personal, he chose us. The father set his love upon the individuals who make up the elect.

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He did not place his love upon a nebulous, faceless group called the elect, and then we choose to get in or out based upon our own alleged free will.

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Just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we might be holy and blameless before him.

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Holiness and blamelessness are not just simply saying, oh, God's just chosen the elect to be holy and blameless.

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The only way we can be holy and blameless is due to the work of the spirit of God within our lives. It has to do with sanctification.

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It has to do with justification. It has to do with forgiveness. All these things that will be coming up in the rest of the text are part and parcel of the entire doctrine of salvation itself.

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And so he chose us before the foundation of the world. This is God's not looking down the corridors of time saying, oh,

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I see you're gonna choose me, so I'll choose you. No, this is God choosing us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we might be holy and blameless before him.

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In love, he predestined us unto the adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself.

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In love, he predestined us. Predestination is a personal thing.

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God doesn't just simply have knowledge of, you know, he created, then he sits back and goes, oh, I see what people are going to do.

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No, this is God's sovereignty coming out in personal manifestation. He has predestined us unto adoption, that personal relationship that we have through Jesus Christ unto himself.

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And what is the basis of that predestination? Is it because he sees something in us? Is it because we've done something?

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No, according to the kind intention of his will. This is the only answer that is given to the question, why does

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God choose one and not another? Since this choosing must be free. Since this choosing cannot be demanded.

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Since if God were simply to be just, he would bring wrath against all the fallen sons and daughters of Adam, then his free choosing must be just that, it must be free.

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It is according to the kind intention, not the evil intention. If God were to save even one, it would be an amazing miracle that he would condescend and provide such a tremendous salvation.

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But it is the kind intention of his will that becomes the foundation of this predestination of us unto sonship.

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Sonship is personal. This cannot, groups do not become sons of God.

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Redeemed sinners become sons of God because it is the spirit of God that enters into us and cries out,

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Abba, Father. And so this could not be any more personal than it is. Furthermore, verse six says, this is to the praise of his glorious grace.

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How could it be to the praise of his glorious grace if his glorious grace is just a peanut butter grace that gets spread out all over the place and tries to save everyone equally?

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No, to the praise of the glory of his grace, his glorious grace, which he has graced us, literally he has gifted us in the beloved one.

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Notice this grace is saved is only in Christ. See the perfection we see, the harmony we see between this and Romans chapter eight.

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Who does Christ intercede for? The elect of God. Where is this grace found? In Jesus Christ.

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See, it's all in Christ. God has this purpose that he has accomplished in Jesus Christ, which is why any one of us this day bows the knee before Jesus Christ is because of what

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God has done, not just making it as a possibility, but he set his love upon us before eternity was.

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To the praise of his glorious grace, which he graced us in the beloved one, in him, in whom the beloved one, we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of his grace.

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Now there you have the fact that this is clearly salvation that is being discussed. It is not merely some general provision, but we have, not we might have, but in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our sins.

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And that forgiveness is not limited in any way. It is according to the riches of his grace, which cannot be numbered, which he caused to abound to us, lavished upon us in all wisdom and understanding.

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Can these be words that could be spoken of anyone, but the elect of God who've actually received the fulfillment of the work of the spirit of God under the praise and honor and glory of God.

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He made known to us the mystery of his will, according to the kind intention, which he purposed in him with a view to administration suitable to the fullness of the times.

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That is the summing up of all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth. So here you have the broad sweep of God's eternal plan.

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He's summing up everything in Christ. Those who are in Christ receive eternal life.

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Those who are outside of Christ will see Christ as their judge. He will sit upon the throne.

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The one that God has ordained, Acts chapter 17, to be the judge because he can do so justly.

01:10:13

He lived the perfect life. He has summed up all things in heaven and earth in Christ.

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And in him also, we have obtained an inheritance. We've obtained it. It is ours, but only in and through Jesus Christ.

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We have obtained an inheritance. Who has obtained this inheritance? Those who have been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will.

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There is no way to understand what Ephesians one is talking about if we do not understand that we are talking about the sovereign

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God who works all things after the counsel of his will. To the end, that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be the praise of his glory.

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And then he turns to Ephesians and you also, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in him with the

01:11:05

Holy Spirit of promise. The Spirit is the one who comes. And in opposition to what's been said a number of times so far today, the

01:11:13

Spirit is the one who comes. He is the Arabon, verse 14, the down payment, the pledge of our inheritance, the promise on God's part that he's going to finish the work that he's begun in that individual.

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Ephesians, you and us together, the Spirit of God binds us together just as the Spirit of God binds all believers together across this world, evidence that God is accomplishing in time what he chose freely to do in eternity past in glorifying himself in the salvation of a specific people in Jesus Christ.

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That's how Paul begins his message to the Ephesians. All right, eight minutes.

01:11:52

You still with us, Michael? I'm here. I actually agreed with a good part of what you said this time. Well, with more than the other.

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Okay, the key points that we need to make that our election is in Christ. And just as Israel's election was corporate, so also is the election of the church.

01:12:09

We, plural, are chosen in him. The end of verse one, the faithful in Christ Jesus, then even more emphatically, the end of verse three has blessed us in Christ where in Christo is at the end.

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Here's what we need to notice. The emphatic uses in Christ in Christo and similar phrases in verses one, three, four, seven, nine, 11, 12, 13, total of nine times in 14 verses and then in the beloved in verse six.

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So let's just hear this. In Christ Jesus, verse one. In Christ, verse three. In him, verse four.

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In the beloved, verse six. In him, verse seven. In Christ, verse nine. In him, verse 10.

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In him, verse 11. In Christ, verse 12. In him, verse 13. And then also the tremendous emphasis on we and us.

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According to verse four, God's eternal purpose was that he would fashion a people for himself in his son, a people who would love him and serve him and be holy and blameless before him, a people on whom he would lavish his grace.

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Verse five, the verb predestined per original means to decide on beforehand or to predetermine.

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And so God has predetermined a certain state of affairs that he will conform believers to the image of Christ.

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Same verb used in 1 Corinthians 2, 7, wisdom achieving the glory of his people. And then verses 11 and 12, that we will be for the praise of his glory.

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So Paul affirms that God determined to adopt us into his family through the redemptive work of Christ.

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As William Klein points out, I must observe that Paul never uses this verb to assert that God has determined the specific individuals to save, nor has he predetermined the means for specific individuals' salvation.

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In other words, God does not predestine that some have faith. From Paul's use, we see that predestination concerns

01:14:00

God's predetermination of certain goals for his people here that they become members of his family through adoption.

01:14:07

Verse six, we note the emphasis on God's grace, the praise of his glorious grace.

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Verse seven, the riches of his grace, repeat it in 2, 7, by grace you have been saved, 2, 5, for by grace you have been saved through faith, 2, 8.

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Everything we have throughout eternity will be through God's grace. All we could do is respond to his offer and say yes, put our trust in him.

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We who are lost, helpless, could not possibly save ourselves and forever and ever and ever, we will be floored and awed with the grace of God, which is why both

01:14:37

Calvinists and Arminians can sing hymns written by one another about God's amazing grace.

01:14:43

Note though that the word mystery, mysterion, occurs six times in Ephesians. As we look in verse nine, here chapter three, verse three, then four, nine, five, 32, and six, 19.

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And Paul explains the meaning in three, four, and three, eight, through 12. The mystery is that the

01:14:59

Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

01:15:08

To me though, I'm the very least of all the saints, this grace was given to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things so that through the church, again, it's a corporate purpose, a corporate calling, the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

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And this is realized in Christ Jesus, our Lord. So we individually partake of the blessings by faith just as God called corporate

01:15:41

Israel and then individuals partook of the blessings by faith and it was always by grace. Israel could never boast of anything, so the same for us.

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Because it is by faith, we cannot boast. We are simply receiving God's offer of mercy because love cannot be coerced.

01:15:56

Because love is relational, God offers it to us freely. And those who respond are then lavished with his amazing and extraordinary and breathtaking grace that floors me every time

01:16:08

I think of it. In verse 11, Paul is not saying here that everything that happens is

01:16:15

God's will. He's not saying that God causes everything to happen, but rather in Christ, God is accomplishing a very carefully worked out plan for his people.

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The message, paraphrases it correctly, long before we first heard of Christ, got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone.

01:16:35

Or in the New Living Translation, paraphrased again, he makes everything work out according to his plan.

01:16:41

So the text certainly does not state that God causes all things to take place as they do. The scriptures testify against this consistently with God grieving over the actions of his creation, often distancing himself from their actions and making clear that he desired their obedience.

01:16:55

But rather than in and through everything that happens in the world, he is accomplishing his plans for his people chosen in Christ.

01:17:01

And verse 13 lays out the way in which we're saved, through hearing and believing the word of truth.

01:17:06

Again, no mystery here. As for being sealed with the Holy Spirit, the NET renders marked with the seal of the promised

01:17:13

Holy Spirit. The NLT paraphrases, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit. Freiberg's Lexicon says that the word seal speaks to providing a sign of identification or ownership.

01:17:25

Verse 14, the spirit here is spoken of as the deposit or down payment that guarantees our inheritance. God will, using

01:17:31

Arabon in Greek, a loan word from Hebrew, guarantee the future inheritance.

01:17:38

BDAG says this is the payment of part of a purchase price in advance, first installment deposit down payment pledge.

01:17:46

Interestingly, in secular Greek documents, the same word Arabon could be used for a deposit given to a man who upon filling certain contingencies would then receive everything else that was contracted for.

01:17:56

Note carefully though that neither the sealing of the spirit, which is simply a mark of identification, nor the spirit as a down payment guarantee an individual's future salvation outside of Christ, which is why

01:18:07

Paul warns the Ephesians so clearly in Ephesians five, five and six, for you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral, impure, covetous, et cetera, has no inheritance of the kingdom of Christ and of God.

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Don't let anyone deceive you with empty words. Our assurance, our security, our inheritance are in Christ.

01:18:26

And it is an absolute testimony to the grace of God that this cannot be earned or worked for, but the miracle of the gospel presented so radically and clearly in the

01:18:36

New Testament, laid out so powerfully by Paul is that justification is by faith and not by works.

01:18:41

And that is the pathway to receive all of God's grace and to be part of this people whom God has predestined from before the foundation of the world.

01:18:48

I'm done. All righty, thank you, sir. So four minutes for our interaction.

01:18:54

Let me start off. You're presenting the concept of a corporate election in this particular text.

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Doesn't your understanding mean that a group was chosen in him, but I as an individual, I was not?

01:19:10

That God did not specifically predestine you or me to salvation. He predestined the people in Jesus just as he predestined the nation

01:19:18

Israel by calling Abraham and participation in that people, being recipients of God's grace is entirely by faith, not by works.

01:19:26

And yet you just said that love is relational, which I understood to mean love involves persons.

01:19:34

And yet all through this text, yes, we have in him and in Christ. And I emphasize that all the time, but we also have in love.

01:19:42

And so in love in verse four, well, it might be verse five, depending on how you divide it up.

01:19:48

But over and over again, we have this idea of in love. How could predestination be done in love if it's an impersonal group that is being predestined?

01:19:58

It's actually the exact opposite. If God arbitrarily predestined someone to believe in him through no choice of that own person, then there isn't relational.

01:20:08

What God says is I am going to have a family. I have determined from before the foundation of the world, I will have a massive family from Jew and Gentile alike that no one can number, that will come through faith in my son and all who receive my love become personal objects of my love.

01:20:23

That's why you never see Paul speaking in his personal epistles about you were predestined. And when choosing to speak it out, spoken of it, spoken of vocation personally.

01:20:32

But whenever he uses the predestination language, it's always in terms of us every single time. He had opportunity to use it otherwise.

01:20:39

But I don't think I got an answer to that one. You said, well, if it's the way

01:20:46

I understand it, then it's not really love or something like that. But again, this predestination is in love, but you're telling us that this is predestination of a non -personal group.

01:20:56

Just, I'm going to have a family. I don't see how you can lovingly predestine a family.

01:21:04

Love involves persons, does it not? Oh, look, you used the family analogy.

01:21:10

So you and your wife get married and say, we want to have a family. The kids haven't been born yet, but you are full of love.

01:21:15

And as those kids are born, they now become part of your family. Full of love for who? Full of love for who?

01:21:21

First is love. Okay, in terms of God's love, it's love for the entire world. John 3, 16, which obviously you differ on.

01:21:27

It's love for the entire world. God's heart goes out to the entire world. And in particular, he expresses his love through Jesus.

01:21:33

All those who receive his son's love are especially loved by God in a personal, particular, wonderful way that I experience every day of my life.

01:21:41

Okay, at least three times so far in our exchange today, you have said that Paul never speaks of personal election or predestination, but only to positions of service or something like that, which

01:21:54

I believe is what Dave Hunt says over and over again. But feel free to say,

01:22:01

I don't want to go there because it's not in Ephesians 1, but since you've mentioned it three times, Paul said in 2

01:22:06

Thessalonians 2, 13, but we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation, through sanctification by the spirit and faith in the truth.

01:22:16

Is that not an example of the choice of God in love from the beginning unto salvation by means of sanctification of the spirit and faith in the truth?

01:22:29

Yeah, I'm happy to go to that text, albeit quickly. The issue there was that they were Gentiles.

01:22:35

Paul was quite emphatic when he gave his witness in Acts 15 that the sign that God had given the spirit to the

01:22:41

Gentiles just in Acts, the 10th chapter, meant that they also were chosen. That's the big issue there. Just as you're so careful to point out that the all passages have to do with Jew and Gentile, the

01:22:50

Thessalonians were some of the early ones to come to faith, some of the early ones that Paul wrote to and say, hey, God's chosen you from the beginning.

01:22:57

You're also in his plan, and we know it because the spirit has come to you. And how do you experience that by being part of that family, part of that body?

01:23:05

Again, it's always in a corporate context when the words are used. Okay, your turn. All right, thank you.

01:23:12

So if we turn this around, can you give me an example in any other literature where Paul is writing personally, the pastoral epistles, et cetera, and ever says that you, an individual, were predestined or chosen for salvation?

01:23:26

Well, first, I disagree with the interpretation he just gave us like Thessalonians. That's not the context. The context is talking about the end times judgment and the

01:23:36

Antichrist and things like that. And so it's not in any way, shape, or form talking about Jews or Gentiles.

01:23:43

In fact, it goes on to say after saying that we shall always give thanks for you. And I'm certain there were

01:23:48

Jews in the Church of Thessalonica as well. Brethren, be loved by the Lord because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation, the sanctification of the spirit and faith and truth.

01:23:57

It was for this he called you through our gospel that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm.

01:24:03

He makes no differentiation there. But I would say that Second Timothy very clearly does possess that very same assertion that in talking to Timothy and encouraging him to be faithful and strong in his ministry as a servant of God in the

01:24:18

Church, what does he base that upon? He bases that upon the fact that we as believers have received this grace from God from before eternity itself.

01:24:27

And that we know whom we have believed and are persuaded he is able to keep that which we've committed unto him against that day because of the fact that he is the very origin and source of our salvation.

01:24:37

So that would make no sense if Paul was not indicating that Timothy was participating in this as well.

01:24:43

So it would be a twofold answer. All right, of course, he doesn't use the same terminology with Timothy, which is one of my points.

01:24:50

And then for Thessalonians, we need to really start in 1 Thessalonians 1 and get the larger context there.

01:24:55

But that takes us a bit away. Why the warnings against apostasy in Ephesians the fifth chapter?

01:25:04

Why these strong urgings and saying that certain people not get in and don't let anyone deceive you with this and don't live like this?

01:25:11

If that's an impossibility, if the ceiling, the guarantee is such that it would be impossible for any individual that was part of that body receiving that letter to ever fall away.

01:25:21

Well, I'll say there's a problem with the question right at the end. I've never even suggested and don't know of anyone who has suggested that simply being in a body means that you will never fall away.

01:25:32

The entire reality is that when you're talking to the gathered church, you're talking to a mixed company. And when

01:25:39

Paul says that don't be deceived, no one who does these things will inherit the kingdom of God. He started off the letter talking about the fact that we've been called unto holiness and sanctification.

01:25:48

So there would be a gross contradiction for someone to come along and say, well, you can simply live your life as you wish and you can engage in these sins.

01:25:56

We have been called unto holiness and sanctification. Those who accept that and see that and experience that by the work of the spirit in their lives, give demonstration of the fact that they have truly heard the spirit of God and have been changed by the spirit of God.

01:26:10

Those who come along and say otherwise have a false faith. They were of us, but they were not truly of us as 1

01:26:16

John describes them. Okay, so even though they're hearing this letter, chosen you, chosen we, we, us, us, it may not apply to all of them.

01:26:24

Of course not. So that you as a member of the elect, assured of your salvation, it is impossible then for you to ever fall away.

01:26:32

A person who is in Jesus Christ, it is impossible for Christ to lose one of his elect. That is true.

01:26:38

So you can, so it's 100 % impossible that James White will ever fall away. No, I didn't say that.

01:26:44

I said that Jesus Christ would not lose any one of his own. The question, you're confusing the reality that Jesus Christ would be a perfect savior with my knowledge, or actually not even my knowledge, your knowledge of my standing before God.

01:27:00

I mean, and anyone who's been in the church knows that we've met people that sat next to us in the

01:27:06

Lord's Supper for years on end. And if you had asked, is this person in Christ? I would have said, as far as I can tell, he most certainly, certainly is.

01:27:15

And then that person went back to the world. It's possible, so then it's possible then that you are not actually in Christ.

01:27:21

The only way to know for sure is that you persevere to the end. He who endures to the end shall be saved because saving faith endures.

01:27:27

Okay, so I have a witness and a total assurance I am in Jesus because I've entrusted my life to him. I don't worry, don't fear, ever question that.

01:27:35

But with your viewpoint, you would actually have to make it to the end until you know for sure.

01:27:40

No, I certainly have a witness that I'm in Jesus Christ. But you could be saved. But I cannot know the reality of your witness simply by your statement of it any more than you can know the reality of mine.

01:27:52

What is the only infallible evidence of that is, of course, enduring to the end because that demonstrates the supernatural faith.

01:27:59

But we've gone way over there, and in fact, we'll do the, no, no, he'll still have about 20 -some -odd minutes to rest up before he gets to it.

01:28:11

You have to actually drive to the studio. Oh, I didn't know, I thought you were in your studio. No, I did it from a different location, but I'm 10 minutes away, so I'm good.

01:28:18

All right, okay, all right. So I've just got a three -minute closing. You've got a three -minute closing. Please, please do. All right, okay, here we go, three -minute closing.

01:28:25

We didn't spend as much time in Ephesians 1 as I would like to, but I think everyone understands what the difference is here.

01:28:32

In essence, I am saying that when Paul says, just as you were chosen in him before the foundation of the world, that God's choice of individuals makes up the corporate body.

01:28:44

The other side is saying God chooses a corporate body that you then, by your faith, fill up by joining.

01:28:53

There is the massive difference between the two readings of this text, and I simply submit to you that when you talk about spiritual blessings in Christ, when you talk about being holy and blameless before him in love, when you talk about adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, when you talk about forgiveness of sins through his blood, redemption, all these things can not be predicated of a nameless, faceless group.

01:29:20

This is the very foundation, and again, with all due respect to my good brother here, and in so many ways, we argue similarly when we're dealing with Muslims and we're dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses or people who deny the deed of Christ.

01:29:36

We're right next to each other. But when it comes to this, I think what we've seen today is when we read these texts, we don't read them in the same way, and you as the audience have to judge why is that?

01:29:48

Because when I read these texts, I see what God is doing. I see God as the subject.

01:29:54

The verbs are God verbs. He's the one doing them, and we are the objects. I never see a situation where our decision determines whether God is gonna be successful in glorifying himself.

01:30:08

And really, when we consider this to the praise of his glorious grace, if this grace is trying to get everybody into this group and yet failing, then why is it being praised?

01:30:22

These are the questions that must be raised. And yes, the text goes on to explain why it is that we have this experience in our own lives of repentance and faith.

01:30:35

And the point of the text is the reason you repent and believe, the reason that you do these things is because of what

01:30:41

God has done in eternity. Not just that he made it a possibility, not that just he laid out a plan, but that he himself is active.

01:30:50

He has a sovereign decree. And I do wanna say that when Paul says in verse 11, the

01:30:56

God who works all things after the counsel of his will, that is the God of the

01:31:01

Old Testament who brings Assyria and brings Babylon and says, I will accomplish all my will.

01:31:08

I am the sovereign who can stay my hand. That is the sovereign God of the

01:31:13

Old Testament that Paul is talking about here in the New Testament who is accomplishing his will in Jesus Christ.

01:31:20

Okay, Michael, all yours. Three minutes. Yeah, let me affirm again my love and appreciation for James and the work that he does.

01:31:29

I was praying for him on his ministry in England. I'm praying for the upcoming debates that he has. And I had to actually stir myself to be willing to argue strongly against a brother like this, but I knew it wouldn't be hard once we started to go at it.

01:31:43

Okay, so Ephesians one, there's nothing nameless and faceless. We're talking about God.

01:31:49

And God, from the beginning, knew those who would respond to his offer of grace and be his people. He knew me by face before the foundation of the world, before I ever had a face, before the idea of me ever was conceived in the heart of my mother or father.

01:32:04

So in that sense, the choosing is absolutely personal, but it's personal by being part of this body in Christ.

01:32:11

What could be more clear than that? And God does two things by the cross. He makes salvation available to the whole world as his call consistently goes out that he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but desires that all will come and be saved.

01:32:24

And then he 100 % saves fully from beginning to end those who do put their trust in his son,

01:32:30

Jesus. And it is all by faith, which is the consistent testimony of the scripture.

01:32:36

All we can say is I receive your gracious offer, helpless, worthless as I am, and then we become adopted into his family.

01:32:43

And he knew us by name, by face, from the very beginning that we would be part of that people that he predestined to glory.

01:32:53

So there's no failure. There is the perfect accomplishment of God's plan. And part of his plan was to give human beings a choice.

01:33:00

The God of the Old Testament grieved over the actions of man, hence a flood. The God of the Old Testament often said to Israel, I never intended this for you.

01:33:08

This was absolutely not what I wanted for you, and offered them life and grieved over it, which is why

01:33:13

Jesus said that he often desired to gather Jerusalem to himself, but his people were not willing.

01:33:20

It's God's willingness and man's unwillingness. And yet through it, God gets for himself a people that no one can number.

01:33:27

That's the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament. And I take very seriously the fact that the Spirit's been given to me as a deposit, and I've now been identified by the

01:33:36

Spirit being given to me as one of God's own. So I have no fear. I never worry for a split second about apostatizing.

01:33:43

I don't see it as a possibility in my life because I've put my trust in a good and gracious Savior who will keep me to the end.

01:33:48

Should my heart become hard and I turn away from them, I have nothing but fear and trembling because anything that is promised to me is wrath.

01:33:57

But I say that those who believe as I believe have far more assurance and far more peace than those who say

01:34:03

I can only know for sure that I'm truly one of God's own if I persevere in holiness to the end.

01:34:08

But let me again emphasize our deep commonality. We're saved through the blood of Jesus.

01:34:14

By God's grace, we will be together forever, and then we'll find out who was right and wrong at that point.

01:34:20

All right, thank you so much for having me on. Thank you, Michael Brown, for being on the program today.

01:34:26

We'll get this up online next week, Thursday, same time. Different set of verses and a reversed order in the debate on next

01:34:36

Thursday. The fact that it's April 1st has no relevance whatsoever. It just happens to be how it worked out.

01:34:43

And Michael will be on his program here in about 25 minutes or so. You can,

01:34:49

I don't know what he's gonna be talking about. He said he didn't know what he was gonna be talking about. I don't know if he'd want you to call him and talk about this or not.

01:34:55

I don't know. But we'll be with you on Tuesday here on The Dividing Line. We'll see you then. God bless. And good afternoon, good morning.

01:35:05

Welcome to The Dividing Line. This is part number two of the debate between myself and Michael Brown.

01:35:12

Today, we have texts chosen by Dr. Brown. And unlike the first part of the debate where I chose the text and I went first, this time since he chose the text, he will be going first.

01:35:24

And so without further delay, I welcome you back. Michael Brown, how are you doing? Great to be on the air with you again today.

01:35:31

Hey, it's good to be with you too. Dr. Brown's coming to us via Skype. Let's hope no one launches a

01:35:36

DNS attack on Skype just simply to mess everything up because the sound quality is so good.

01:35:43

It's not like when Skype first started when it would be something like this, but you talk with him. So he sounds like he's right here in the studio with me, but I think he's on the other side of the

01:35:52

United States right now actually. But today we are beginning with Luke chapter 13 verses 34 and 35.

01:36:01

And so Dr. Brown, your eight minute opening statement. Go ahead. Luke 13, 34 of Jerusalem.

01:36:07

Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you. How often I've longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

01:36:16

The meaning of this short and poignant passage, which has a parallel in Matthew 23, 37 is quite straightforward.

01:36:22

And not surprisingly, it's one of the passages that persuaded the respected Calvinist scholars Ned Stonehouse and John Murray to write, we have found that God himself expresses an ardent desire for the fulfillment of certain things which he has not decreed in his inscrutable counsel to come to pass.

01:36:37

This means that there is a will to the realization of which he has not decreed of the will, the pleasure towards that which he has not been pleased to decree, which they say is indeed mysterious.

01:36:47

But what may be mysterious, especially for Calvinist based on a host of biblical texts, it's quite obvious. Here in Luke 13, 34, we have a moving expression from Israel's Messiah.

01:36:56

He addresses Jerusalem as the personification of the nation as a whole, just as the prophets often did as in Jeremiah 2, 2, go proclaim to Jerusalem.

01:37:04

As I noted in my commentary there, Jerusalem represents the people of Israel, not merely a city or geographical location, but the people themselves, both past and present.

01:37:13

Jesus longed to gather her children together, meaning the inhabitants of Jerusalem represented the nation as a whole. As a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but she again represented the people and their leadership, were not willing.

01:37:24

In fact, the Greek twice uses the verb fellow to will, wish, desire. The Lord is saying,

01:37:30

I was willing, in fact, over and over again, but you were not willing. As expressed by D .A. Carson, Jesus claims to be the one who has longed to gather and protect his rebellious nation.

01:37:39

Or as noted by R .T. France, as Jesus contemplates what lies ahead of the people he came to save, it gives him no pleasure.

01:37:46

He had wanted to gather them, not to condemn them. The simple and undeniable sense of the passage is plain, and according to John Calvin, Christ speaks here in the person of God.

01:37:55

James has written that, quote, a vitally important point to make here is that the ones the Lord desired to gather are not the ones who are not willing.

01:38:03

Jesus speaks to the leaders about their children, that they, the leaders, would not allow him to gather. Jesus was not seeking to gather the leaders, but their children.

01:38:10

This one consideration alone renders the passage useless for the Arminians seeking to establish free willism, end quote.

01:38:17

Actually, the reverse is true. First, although the context in Matthew 23, 37 in particular focuses on the

01:38:24

Jewish leadership, this is not the case in Luke 13, so it must be demonstrated rather than assumed that Jerusalem speaks only of the leadership rather than the people as a whole.

01:38:32

Where else is this usage found in Scripture? Thus the ESV renders with O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets.

01:38:40

This would be in keeping with other New Testament passages like Acts 2 .36, which indicts the entire house of Israel at 1

01:38:45

Thessalonians 2 .14 and following, where the Jewish people or Judeans are held responsible for killing the prophets and the

01:38:51

Messiah himself. Which major lexicons or top gospel scholars understand Jerusalem here to mean the

01:38:57

Jewish leadership only? Second, to more specifically challenge James's argument, who says that Jesus didn't want to gather

01:39:04

Jerusalem's leaders together? On what textual basis can he make that statement? And third and most importantly, even on James's interpretation, we see that Jesus was seeking to gather the children of the leaders, yet what he wanted to happen did not happen.

01:39:17

The children of their leaders called here Jerusalem's children, if we follow James's interpretation, suffered terribly just as their leaders did.

01:39:25

This is confirmed in Luke 19, 41 to 44, where we read that when Jesus drew near to Jerusalem, he wept over it saying, would that you even you had known on this day the things that make for peace, but now they are hidden from your eyes for days will come upon you when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you.

01:39:47

They will not leave one stone upon another because you did not know the time of your visitation. Note carefully these words, you and your children within you.

01:39:55

There can be no possible mistaking of the fact that Jesus wanted to gather Jerusalem's children. And over here in Luke 19, that Jerusalem cannot simply refer to the leadership, but they were not gathered.

01:40:04

What he so fervently desired did not happen. This was a cause of profound sorrow for our Lord who did not rejoice at the impending destruction of his beloved city and his beloved people saying, yes, this is what my father and I decreed for you and so shall it be.

01:40:17

No, he wept over Jerusalem saying, if only you had known, if only you had understood the time of your visitation. Again, the text is abundantly clear and is in harmony with many other biblical passages.

01:40:27

Our sovereign God, because of his own free choice to create human beings with a measure of free will, often desires things for his people and for this world that do not happen, causing him grief and pain.

01:40:36

That is the world he chose to create in his own inscrutable wisdom, one in which he allows us a measure of free will and seeks a reciprocal love relationship with us.

01:40:44

And in the midst of it, he continues to work out his sovereign purposes, bringing good out of evil and life out of death, ultimately for his eternal glory.

01:40:52

Next passage, Deuteronomy 5, 28 to 29. In context, these verses follow

01:40:58

Moses recounting to the children of Israel what happened when God spoke the 10 commandments to his people from Mount Sinai one generation earlier.

01:41:05

The people were terrified at God's voice and asked that Moses speak to them on God's behalf, saying that they would do whatever the

01:41:11

Lord required. God accepted their request and then said, if only it would really be their desire to fear me and obey all my commandments in the future so that it may go well with them and their descendants forever.

01:41:21

This was God's desire. But of course, what else would a loving father desire for his children? What else would a devoted bridegroom desire for his bride?

01:41:28

What else would a compassionate creator desire for his chosen nation? Again, the meaning of the text leaves no ambiguity as the opening

01:41:34

Hebrew phrase, mi yitein means would that, if only. It speaks of an ardent wish or desire as in Job 6, 8, where he cries out, oh, that I might have my request.

01:41:42

In fact, the expression occurs nine times in Job, pointing to the passionate desire inherent to the phrase. Also using the same idiom as Psalm 14, 7, oh, that the deliverance of Israel might come from Zion.

01:41:53

The new Jewish version to the passage under discussion here in Deuteronomy 5 bears citing, I have heard the plea that this people made to you.

01:42:00

They did well to speak thus. May they always be of such mind to revere me and follow all my commandments so that it may go well with them and with their children forever.

01:42:08

God wants things to go well for his beloved people. Thus Moses says in Exodus 20, 20 in a similar context, immediately after the giving of the 10 commandments, do not fear for God has come to test you that the fear of him may be before you that you may not sin.

01:42:23

Parallel to this is the expression of God's desire in Isaiah 48, 17 to 19. Thus said the

01:42:28

Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy one of Israel. I, the Lord am your God, instructing you for your own benefit, guiding you in the way you should go.

01:42:34

If only you would heed my commands and your prosperity would be like a river, your triumph like the waves of the sea.

01:42:41

Both this passage in Deuteronomy 5, 28 and 29 persuaded Murray and Stonehouse to recognize that God does not decree that everything he ardently desires will come to pass.

01:42:50

And as I stated at the outset, while they call this mysterious, from a biblical perspective, it is quite obvious how utterly contrary to the clear and consistent testimony of the word is the notion that one,

01:43:02

God did not desire the salvation of the entire nation of Israel. Two, he did not desire that they would obey and hence be blessed.

01:43:09

Three, while repeatedly proclaiming his desire for their wellbeing, he secretly decreed the destruction of many of them.

01:43:15

And four, the unequivocal words of the father in the Old Testament and the son of the New Testament do not mean what they say, must instead be turned on their heads in order to fit a theological system, not so.

01:43:25

And I remind you, these passages cannot be passed off to what is sometime called the prescriptive will of God found in his law, where God commands his people, do not murder, do not commit adultery.

01:43:34

In contrast with an alleged secret, so -called decreed of will, which amount to what God really wants to happen, irresistibly causing his people to do whatever they do by way of an unconditional decree, including all their sin and evil.

01:43:45

To the contrary, God does not want his people to sin or do evil. And these passages describe the heart and mind and desire of God.

01:43:51

He desires blessing, not cursing for his people, life, not death, which is why he says elsewhere in Deuteronomy, choose life, that you and your descendants may live.

01:44:01

All right, thank you very much. And now my eight minutes begins now. In eight minutes of discussion, we never had any demonstration that the term gathered means

01:44:11

I want to save. It was just assumed, but it was never proven. It was never even attempted to be proven that gathered means the same thing as bring into eternal life.

01:44:23

There are all sorts of covenant, all sorts of covenant language here. And it was also very confusing to me that it sounded like Dr.

01:44:29

Brown was somehow distinguishing between Matthew's use of this logia and Luke's. Both are judgment passages, even though Luke only provides a small snippet of this and places it within the context of Jesus going to Jerusalem and a prophet must not perish outside of Jerusalem.

01:44:45

Still, it's the exact same logia. And so to attempt to interpret it outside of its Methean context, where it's given its full context in regards to the specific

01:44:54

Jewish leaders, I find that not to be a meaningful approach to exegesis.

01:45:01

First of all, it is very clear, despite the denial that was just offered, that Jesus himself is the one who provides the contrast between the

01:45:11

Jewish leaders and those who Jesus was seeking to gather. And that in the context of the destruction, the coming destruction of Jerusalem, which in both of the

01:45:22

Matthew and Luke references comes right after this, behold, your house is left to you desolate. I say to you, you will not see me until the time comes when you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the

01:45:33

Lord, both end with the exact same judgment narrative. I find it odd that we are attempting to overthrow the entire biblical testimony about God's decree on the basis of a judgment passage rather than upon a didactic text that specifically addresses these issues.

01:45:51

I think we're gonna see that in each of the examples that have been provided in our debate today. It was to the

01:45:57

Jewish leaders that God sent the prophets. It was the Jewish leaders who killed the prophets and sent them, was sent to them, hence the use of Jerusalem, the capital city, as the symbol for the leadership.

01:46:07

It would be similar to my saying addressing someone in Washington, D .C. Everyone recognizes

01:46:12

I'm talking about the leadership of the nation. Jesus speaks of your children, and yet the vast majority of the time this text is used, that is simply dismissed.

01:46:22

In fact, frequently isn't even quoted because they don't see the distinction here because they don't see the judgment that is being brought upon the

01:46:30

Jewish leaders for what it is that they are doing. And this comes out very clearly in the Mathean context in Matthew 23, 13, which comes before Matthew 23, 37.

01:46:41

But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people and you do not enter in yourselves nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

01:46:51

Jesus comes proclaiming the kingdom and those who are already in charge of things say, no, we do not want to have your message.

01:46:59

The judgment that comes in Luke 13 and Matthew 23 is upon individuals who have stood in their rank, religious rebellion against God.

01:47:08

The very ones that are in the very danger of committing the unpardonable sin. They have stood before the very

01:47:14

Messiah himself and have resisted his preaching of repentance and his ministry of warning about what is coming upon Jerusalem within Jerusalem itself.

01:47:24

This is the great judgment that is going to come upon them. So where or how does a judgment logia establish the idea that the gathering mentioned is a synonym for salvation?

01:47:36

Dr. Brown didn't tell us. If this is anything other than salvation itself rather than the proclamation of the coming judgment upon Israel to which there would be mixed response, how is this text even slightly relevant to the issue of God's decree or the allegedly all powerful will of man?

01:47:53

There are just so many questions that are raised by this. And I just might note, very little time was spent in exegesis of the

01:47:59

Luke and passage. It's alleged clear meaning was brought forth with dozens of other passages, but immediately went to this idea that the desire of God expressed in his holy words, the fact that he desires holiness, the fact that he says thou shalt not kill, that somehow this means there is no decree of God that includes the evil of man.

01:48:23

And so, and we immediately leave a judgment text upon the scribes and Pharisees and expand this out to a

01:48:30

Bible wide denial that results in the scriptures being tremendously contradictory to themselves.

01:48:37

We have all these examples of where God hardens the people's hearts.

01:48:42

I mean, how are we supposed to understand this in light of Jesus' own words in John chapter 12, that God had hardened their hearts so they could not believe?

01:48:51

These are gonna be some of the questions that I'm going to be asking. We also had Deuteronomy chapter five presented.

01:48:58

And again, I'm not sure what exactly is being said here other than, well, this is what

01:49:03

God truly desires to happen. Well, of course, God's desires are always holy and just and representative of who he is.

01:49:11

But evidently the idea is, well, and if he has those desires, then he would never decree anything other than that.

01:49:19

Folks, simple question here. Did God desire Pilate to do what Pilate did?

01:49:24

Did God desire Herod to do what Herod did? Did God desire the Jewish leaders to turn over their own

01:49:30

Messiah to the Romans for crucifixion? What was the answer of the early church to that? In Acts chapter four, verses 27 to 28.

01:49:38

They did exactly what your hand had predestined to occur. Not what you saw in the future, but was against your desire.

01:49:47

They did what you had predestined to occur. You see, once again, we come back to the same issues that Dr.

01:49:53

Brown and I raised when we first spoke on his program. And that is he denies that there is a decree of God that gives form to what happens in time despite the many texts of scripture that make reference to this and says, no, that is not the case whatsoever.

01:50:10

Since God says, I owe that you would do that. That means that's the only desire he has.

01:50:16

And that's the only will that he has. And that's just all there is to it. He's just like a man. He really wishes we do these things.

01:50:23

And yet I know that Dr. Brown rejects open theism. And so if he rejects open theism, then we have an even odder situation here.

01:50:31

And that is we have God, oh, that you would do this. I know you're not going to. And I brought this creation into existence.

01:50:38

And when I brought the creation to existence, I knew you weren't going to. And so I brought creation existence just simply so that I would be eternally disappointed in these situations.

01:50:49

Is that really what a synthesis of all of scripture revelation rather than just taking a part of it?

01:50:56

Now, Dr. Brown's already said, already made the accusation. Well, you're turning a text on its head simply for a theological system.

01:51:03

Well, we both feel that that's what the other one's doing. I believe Dr. Brown is ignoring the many texts of scripture where God talks about accomplishing all of his holy will, bringing about his purpose and simply asking the question, does that please

01:51:17

God? When in the final analysis, we saw this in the preceding part of the debate, we look at Ephesians one, it says that he is accomplishing all things according to the counsel of his will.

01:51:31

Is that the case or not? I think Dr. Brown was saying, no, he's not accomplishing all things according to the counsel of his will.

01:51:37

There's all sorts of other wills involved and there's all sorts of other wills that are doing the exact opposite of what God would have to do.

01:51:43

We need to have a completely biblical view of these things. And the idea that God expressing his holy desires in consonance with his own nature is somehow to mean that he can, excuse me, he can not have his own holy decree just simply does not follow.

01:52:02

We now have four minutes of cross -examination each and then we have three -minute closing statements.

01:52:08

We are in the first part of the debate. Dr. Brown, your four minutes. Okay, no debating hype here,

01:52:14

James. I'm kind of stunned by the comments you made, both for putting words in my mouth that I never spoke, which I hope to clarify, along with when we get to Deuteronomy five, you accuse me of going over the passages.

01:52:23

I didn't even hear a syllable about Deuteronomy five. So let's go back to specific texts. I never said that gathered meant save.

01:52:31

What do you believe gathered means in the passages in Luke 13 and Matthew 23? I certainly did not attempt to put any words in your mouth,

01:52:40

Dr. Brown. However, everything that you said led to the conclusion that that's what you were talking about.

01:52:46

So if you want to clarify that, that'll be great. I did actually refer to Deuteronomy chapter five, especially in regards to his desire that they would walk in his law.

01:52:56

So I want to correct both of those statements right from the beginning. The gathering that Jesus is talking about is the same gathering that isn't found in Deuteronomy 23, 13.

01:53:08

And that is Jesus seeking to proclaim the kingdom of God to all the inhabitants of Israel.

01:53:15

We'll use the term generically here and not make the division between Galilee and Judea, and specifically the proclamation of repentance and the coming judgment of God upon Jerusalem.

01:53:26

All right. So he wanted to gather them. And who are the children? The children would be the people under the authority of the

01:53:33

Jewish leaders. Oh, okay. They were not gathered. It didn't happen, which is my whole point. I didn't say anything about save, even though you kept arguing as if I had, or that's what

01:53:43

I was alleging. My whole point was that Jesus wanted to gather them as many Calvinist scholars recognize, but they weren't gathered.

01:53:50

Hence Luke 19, you and your children are going to be destroyed. Yes. The preaching of the prophets has always been under the assumption that if they were to respond, then they would receive

01:54:03

God's blessing. The whole reason, as Jeremiah 7 makes so clear, the whole reason that you have this constant lack of hearing, this lack of obedience, is the demonstration that it is not simply being amongst the people of God, it makes you the people of God.

01:54:19

All right. I'm still not getting an answer to this. Jesus longed to gather them together and it didn't happen.

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How often would I have gathered you through the ministry of the preaching? Yes. Oh, okay. So what he desired to happen didn't happen.

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That was my whole point in the passage. As expressed through the preaching, yes. That does not mean, again, you just assume that there can be no consistency between the preaching of the word of God, the prescriptive will of God in his law, and the decree of God as to what's going to take place.

01:54:53

Okay, so in a, which is really properly, not just a judgment passage in genre, but a lamentation passage.

01:54:59

So he is lamenting, pouring on his heart. This was his fervent desire, yet he decreed the opposite of that. That's what you believe?

01:55:05

He decreed the judgment of Israel, yes. There's no question about that. Oh, okay. So when we get to Deuteronomy 5, we're not looking at prescriptive will, do not murder.

01:55:14

We're looking at God's desire for his people. So again, you're saying that God desired that his people would not murder, but decreed that some of them would.

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Okay, do you have any reason then for why so many other Calvinist scholars read these passages differently than you do?

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I can't answer for them. I just simply recognize that the scriptures are very, very plain in making the assertion that anything that takes place has a purpose.

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God has not created purposeless evil. He is over and over again in the same text talk about hardening hearts.

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There are times when he does not allow preaching of the word of God that would result in the salvation of people. I simply have to take all that the scripture says.

01:55:59

I can't just take one section and say, ah, here it is, God's desire is that everybody's good, and therefore, if there's anything that goes against that,

01:56:07

I'm just going to dismiss it. It's right there in the text. Right, and I would look at it, let's just be consistent with what the text says, and it's much easier to put things together.

01:56:16

Okay, my turn for the four minutes, and so I'll ask you the question. In light of what you just said, did

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God desire to harden the people of Israel's hearts so they would not believe, as in Isaiah 6? No, his highest desire, as we'll see in other texts, was that they would repent and live.

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If they refused to, then he desired to bring judicial punishment upon them. That's the way it always works.

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So there are multiple desires from your perspective in God's heart? No, it would just be like a parent.

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I desire that my child does not sin and mess up. If he does sin, I desire that he learns properly from his punishment and does not escape punishment.

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That's what I desire. So the hardening that God brings is actually the same thing as a parent punishing children?

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Well, the hardening, we know from God's perspective, you have to look at the vocabulary that's used. Vocabulary that's used, say, for example, with Pharaoh begins with chazak, or chazek, to strengthen.

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God does not take someone that desires or is crying out or is longing to, and then hardens them. He confirms us.

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Like it's often been pointed out, the same sun that bakes the earth melts the clay.

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So sometimes God's loving word coming to someone produces hardness. Could Pharaoh have done other than what he did?

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Pharaoh was set in a certain course. God confirmed him in his course. If at any moment he chose to repent, I believe there would have been grace.

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But God also raised him up knowing exactly who he was. Well, wait a minute. So if it was God's intention to demonstrate his supremacy over the gods of Egypt in the

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Exodus and in the plagues, Pharaoh could have frustrated that by repenting, right? No, God foreknew this man.

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That's why he raised him up. That's what Paul says in Romans 9. For this very purpose, I raised you up.

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Amazingly, though, of course, we have to get away from the text we're exegeting to try to argue your points. Well, you raised all sorts of points that go far beyond the text.

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So I'm just simply having to answer the very issues that you raised up. So God raised up Pharaoh based on his foreknowledge of what

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Pharaoh would do, not for any other reason. So Pharaoh could not have done any other than what he did because God foreknew what

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Pharaoh was going to do. In that sense, yes. Okay. So that knowledge that God has of this foreknowledge, are you taking a middle -knowledge perspective here or a simple foreknowledge perspective?

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I'm not looking at it from a theological perspective, but from an exegetical perspective, to be honest. And we see in the text that he hardens himself over and over and over before God then confirms him in his hardness.

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So there's consistency there. We don't see that Pharaoh was seeking to fear

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God. We don't read that God hardened the magicians who were saying, come on, stop already. We see that God confirmed in his hardness a man that was already set in that course.

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It's consistent in scripture. You don't see anything contrary to that ever happening in terms of hardening in scripture.

01:59:06

Really? So when you're talking about your understanding of the

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Lucan passage, when Jesus specifically addresses this issue in John 12, 39, and I'm sorry, when

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John specifically addresses this text in John 12, 39 and says, for this reason, it was impossible for them to believe.

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Do you believe that that is simply because of what they had done or because of what

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God had done? Judicial hardening, beginning with their own hardness, God confirmed them in it.

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And just as second Thessalonians two, those who do not love the truth, God will give over to delusion.

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So they believe a lot. It's consistent. There's no mystery here. So that's true. I agree a thousand percent, but so their free will is taken from them.

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There's, you at one point it said, well, Pharaoh could have done other, how about those people in John 12, or is it over with for them?

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I said, no, in John 12, it was at that moment. It doesn't say for all time, doesn't say that they were damned and doomed for all time, but at that moment they were blinded and there was judicial hardening.

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Sometimes God gives us over to our sins and we're captive in them. God can draw us again and grant us repentance, but he does give us over to our sins.

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Again, it's consistent the way it's used in scripture. And your three minutes for your closing statement.

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All right. Really, there can be no exegetical denying of the plain sense of Luke 13, Matthew 23, as reformed

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New Testament scholar, D .A. Carson explained, Jesus often long to gather and shelter Jerusalem by metonymy, including all

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Jews, as a hen gathers her chicks, for despite the woes pronounced, Jesus, like the sovereign Lord in Ezekiel 1832, took no pleasure in the death of anyone.

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According to the Puritan author, William Perkins, the things which he willeth, namely the gathering of the Jews by the ministry of the prophets was begun and practiced long before his incarnation.

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Wherefore, as I take it here, his divine will is meant to the will of his Godhead, which is also the will of the Father and of the

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Holy Ghost. According to the Calvinist author, Walter Chantry, notice that Jesus is speaking to a people who are finally going to perish and he knows it.

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That these people are about to be consumed by the wrath of God is the main intent of Christ's statement. He's pronouncing a curse upon them, yet in the midst of sentencing them,

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Jesus expresses his love for them and a desire that they would repent and believe. He reminded these very people who would soon perish that they had been repeatedly invited to come to him.

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He assured them that even at that moment, he desired them to freely partake of his saving mercy. In verse 37, our

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Lord said, I would have gathered you, but you would not. The Savior sincerely desired their conversion. He wanted to gather

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Jerusalem into his saving and protecting grace, but they spurned his sincere invitation and refused to turn.

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Finally, writing in the banner of truth, Gerald Hamster expressed how fervently the Savior longs for the salvation of the lost.

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If only the unconverted sinner could know how rich a love dwells in the heart of our precious Redeemer. He understands the plight of the sinner is no one else.

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His gracious warnings are a proof of this. No less so are his tears. That's why they cry out to the sinner, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but whether that the wicked turn from his way and live.

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So not only does James miss the overwhelming clear sense of the passage, namely that what Jesus so fervently desired did not happen, but he also rejects the interpretation of many top

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Calvinists past and present. As for Deuteronomy 5, 28 and 29, there's no reason to get ourselves twisted in some kind of a theological pretzel that God ardently desires that his people do not sin and yet preordain some of them to sin, that God longs to see his people repent and yet has a system set up that he has preordained that many of them will not repent.

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No, he has set up a system in his own sovereign will, giving limited free choice so that people can refuse his grace because love cannot be coerced.

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God wants a reciprocal relationship. This is what our sovereign God set up and according to Ephesians 1 .11, in the midst of everything that is happening, he is working out his sovereign purpose and he will get for himself the people for his glory and his glory alone.

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His desire is that people will turn and repent. He grieves when they do not, but ultimately, in the midst of it, he will accomplish his sovereign purpose.

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All right, thank you very much. I agree with much of what Dr. Brown has just said. Unfortunately, he seems to be trying to drive a wedge between myself and others that others have tried to do too.

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In fact, I'm sort of sensing their influence in some of this as well. What happens in Matthew 23 is a condemnation of the

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Jewish leaders. Even just now, Dr. Brown had said, how often I wish to gather you, but you were not.

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Jesus never said that. He said, how often would I gather your children together, but you would not.

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The condemnation of the you would not and anything in regards to the ability of man has to do with the

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Jewish leaders and their resistance to the ministry of Jesus. Any other use of this text simply is inappropriate.

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Now, Dr. Brown has said, ah, but all I'm saying about this text, which is not the normal Arminian use of this text, is that Jesus desired to do something that did not happen.

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And once again, we are driven back to the necessity of recognizing that God's holy will expressed in his law is that we be perfect even as our heavenly father is perfect.

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His holy desire is for that which is good and just and righteous. But God is not a man.

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And God's desires also include his own decree, which gives form to the very substance of time.

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You see, God desired to save many people alive in the days of Joseph. To accomplish that, he decreed the selling of Joseph into slavery in Egypt.

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That involved the evil actions of men. But God was sovereign over those things and his sovereign purpose was holy and just.

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In the one action, you have the desires of men that are evil and the desires of God that are good.

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Now, if we have simply a foreknowledge perspective here to where, well,

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God created and then he saw these things were gonna happen, then how can God be said to be accomplishing his holy will?

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It's not his holy will. He's not accomplishing anything at all. In fact, all of prophecy seems to be nothing more than God acting as a

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CNN reporter and telling us what he's already seen in the future rather than the accomplishment of his will.

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And folks, this is a major difference because in one, God has a specific plan that he is accomplishing.

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Not just major goals. I'm gonna try to work things out at the end. Think of how any one of those events, and especially the crucifixion itself, was the result of the decree of God or thousands and millions of free will choices of human beings.

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In one of those instances, God is worthy of being worshiped for accomplishing all his holy will. In the other,

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I don't know that he is. And that's really what we're talking about here is allowing all of scripture to speak this vitally important matter.

02:06:05

Okay, now we are moving on as quickly as we can to the next section, eight minutes.

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This time, looking at Ezekiel chapter 18. Actually, I think there were three or four texts that were cited, but we'll see how many are gotten to.

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Dr. Brown, your Ezekiel exegesis, please. All right, I'm determined to let the text speak for itself and not cram it into some preconceived theological system.

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So back to the scriptures. I've selected these texts in order to reinforce the scriptural concepts that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather desires that they repent and live, that he ardently desires certain things that do not come to pass since he has given his creation the choice to refuse his grace, and that there are times when our response or lack of response to him changes his course of action, all based, of course, on the principles on which he decided to create us to accomplish his ultimate goals.

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It's his almighty will. We have no almighty will. The backdrop to Ezekiel 18 is simple.

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The prophet is writing to Jews living in Babylonian exile. To a certain degree, they seem to be suffering for the sins of their fathers.

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Lamentations 5 .7 even states, our fathers sinned and are no more. We must bear their guilt. Well, Jeremiah 15, one through four, indicated that the current generation would suffer because of the prior atrocities committed by King Manasseh.

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Because of that, a proverbial saying had developed. What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel?

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The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. The exiles felt the Lord was being unjust.

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First, the Lord said that the proverb would no longer be applicable. Rather, sin would be judged more quickly and the person who sins, only he shall die.

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Second, the Lord demonstrated his justice on an individual level, explaining that if a wicked man had a righteous son, the son would not die because of his father's sins.

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Conversely, if the righteous son in turn had a wicked son, the latter would not live because of his father's righteousness. It's in the midst of this explanation that God reveals his heart towards his people, including the wicked.

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Thus, in Ezekiel 18 .23, the Lord states, is it my desire that a wicked person shall die, says the

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Lord God. It's rather that he shall turn back from his ways and live or as rendered in the ESV, have

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I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live.

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These sentiments are repeated at the end of the chapter. Therefore, I'll judge you, O house of Israel, everyone according to his ways, declares the

02:08:19

Lord. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

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Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God, so turn and live. If this was not clear enough, the

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Lord says again in 3311, in the context of warning the wicked, as I live, declares the Lord, it is not my desire that the wicked shall die, but that the wicked turn from his evil ways and live.

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Turn back, turn back from your evil ways that you may not die, O house of Israel. The Hebrew verb used frequently here, hafatz, means to desire, take pleasure in, want, wish.

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And it is used in Micah 718 to give us another glimpse into God's heart. It was a God like you who pardoned sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance.

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You do not stay angry, but delight to show mercy. Is it possible that in the case of persistent, unrepentant sin,

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God desires to put these sinners to death for their sins? This is certainly true. As in Isaiah 48, 14, which speaks of God's hafatz, desire, will to bring judgment on wicked

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Babylon. But if we keep reading this very same text, verses 18, 19, we see that God's ardent desire is that his people obey him and be blessed, which is exactly what the passages in Ezekiel, of all the texts already discussed in the first segment teach.

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God does not desire the death of the wicked. He desires that they repent and live. That's the heart of our God. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

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1 John 4, 8 tells us that our thrice holy, all powerful, perfectly just sovereign God is love.

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In Jeremiah 3, 19, 20, our next text gives us another glimpse into the heart of our loving heavenly father.

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The verses come in the context of severe warnings and rebukes with the impending punishment of exile hanging over the nation.

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But exile and destruction were not what God desired for his children. As rendered in the ESV, I said how

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I would set you among my sons and give you a pleasant land, a heritage most beautiful of all nations. And I thought you would call me my father and would not turn from following me.

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Surely as a treacherous wife leaves her husband, so have you been treacherous to me, O house of Israel, declares the Lord.

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Once again, just as in Luke 13, where Jesus desired to gather Jerusalem's children together like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but it did not happen.

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The Lord here expressed his desire to bless his children with the land of Israel, expressing his longing that they would follow him as faithful sons, but it did not happen.

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They behaved treacherously and so terrible punishment had to come. But I asked once more, what were God's sentiments in this?

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Listen to Lamentations 3, 31 to 34. For the Lord does not reject forever, but first afflicts and pardons in his abundant kindness for he does not willingly bring grief or affliction to man, crushing under his feet all the prisons of the earth.

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And then hear God's heart again in Jeremiah 31, 20. Is not Ephraim my dear son and the child in whom

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I delight? I often speak against him. I still remember him. Therefore, my heart yearns for him. I have great compassion for him, declares the

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Lord. It's amazing that I'm accused of not using the consistent biblical witness when the text says the same thing over and over and over and over.

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Even when they're under his judgment, he still longs for them. We turn now to Ezekiel 22, 30 and 31.

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I sought for man among them who should build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land that I should not destroy, but I found none.

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Therefore, I poured out my indignation upon them. I've consumed them with the fire of my wrath. I have returned their way upon their heads, declares the

02:11:28

Lord God. The imagery used here is very graphic. Walls protected a city. When they became broken down and full of breaches, the enemy had easy access and the city had limited defense.

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A true prophet or intercessor would, spiritually speaking, build up the wall or climb into the gap in the wall itself, thereby warding off the enemy attack with his own life.

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That's why the false prophets are indicted for not doing this in Ezekiel 13. This can be contrasted with the intercession of Moses as recorded in Psalm 106, 23, using identical terminology in Hebrew.

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Therefore, God said he would destroy them had not Moses chosen what stood in the breach before him to turn away his wrath from destroying them.

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In Ezekiel 22, God looked for someone who would climb into the breach and intercede for the people at a critical time in Israel's history.

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Because he found none, he had to bring judgment. If a faithful intercessor had been found, he would not have destroyed. This is hardly the message of everything happening according to a preordained, unchangeable course of events.

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And it is in keeping with the description of Yahweh the potter in Jeremiah 18, 6 through 11.

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Oh, house of Israel, can I not deal with you like this says the potter, just like clay in the hands of the potter, so are you in my hands, oh, house of Israel.

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At one moment, I made decree that a nation or a kingdom shall be uprooted and pulled down and destroyed. But if that nation against which

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I made that decree turns back from its wickedness, I change my mind concerning the punishment I plan to bring on it.

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But then the text states the reverse. And now say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, thus said the

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Lord God, I am devising disaster for you and laying plans against you. Turn back each of you from your wicked ways and mend your ways and your actions.

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Note that the Hebrew participle used for devising is Yotzer, meaning both potter and foreman. As the text we've just examined indicate clearly, should the people have repented,

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God would have been glad. Their failure to repent brought him grief. And clearly God desired their repentance.

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Could the text be any more plain? To borrow a phrase from my esteemed colleague, this is the potter's freedom.

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And he is determined to interact with his people in conjunction with choices we make. And what makes him all the more worthy of praise and adoration is that ultimately, he brings his purposes to pass in the midst of human sin and satanic activity, not by pre -programming billions of robots.

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This is our sovereign all wise king. And he is the one who says to us, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that he turn and live.

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When he brings judgment, it is a necessity, but his higher goal, his greater desire is that they repent. A .W.

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Tozer said this, God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice.

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And man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God, but fulfills it.

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And as much as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make, but that he should be free to make it. If it is absolute freedom,

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God has will to give man limited freedom. Who is there to stay his hand or say, what doest thou? Man's will is free because God is sovereign.

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A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon his creatures. He would be afraid to do so.

02:14:19

A .W. All right, thank you very much. Dr. Brown said, I am committed to scripture alone rather than cramming it into a preexisting theological structure.

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And yet we have heard a number of citations from other scholars today, including the very last one given that is a preexisting theological structure that presents a concept of divine decrees and sovereignty where basically

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God's sovereignty is limited to his granting sovereignty to mankind. And where do we find the basis of that in scripture?

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Is that the statements that are given to us in the Old Testament itself? I don't believe that that's the case.

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But I again want to focus again upon a text that I believe has been expanded out once again in contradiction to plain didactic passages into an expression that, well, if this is what

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God's desires are, then there can't be anything beyond just a simple understanding that if God desires this, there can't be anything to his decree.

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There can't be anything to the interaction of God with evil. God's limited to only bring good out of evil rather than actually having a purpose in the evil that takes place.

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There's a huge difference between those two. Ezekiel chapter 18 is specifically about the refutation of a false proverb amongst the people.

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The word of the Lord came to me. What do you mean by repeating this proverb? They were saying it over and over again. Concerning the land of Israel, the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge.

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As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.

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Behold, all souls are mine. The soul of the father is well, the soul of the son is mine. The soul who sins shall die.

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So we have a specific situation that is in view here, a situation unlike the vast majority of the applications of this text.

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That is God's covenant people using his own law, the law of Deuteronomy that says,

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I will visit the iniquity of the fathers upon their sons and their children's children for generations.

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They're using God's own law and saying, there's no reason for us to repent. Why? Because your law has doomed us.

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We are living what we are experiencing. These judgments are due to what has happened before us.

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Therefore, there's no reason for us to listen to the prophetic call for repentance. Now that is an incredibly narrow application.

02:16:35

And therefore, you have to provide some means of foundation for expanding the conclusions you draw to any other application of these things.

02:16:45

Notice then below verses 29 through 32, after a discussion of God's law and what the righteous man is, yet the house of Israel says, the way of the

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Lord is not just. Hear that, the house of Israel, God's covenant people saying of their covenant

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God, the way of the Lord is not just. Oh, house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

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Therefore, I will judge you, oh, house of Israel, everyone according to his ways declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.

02:17:14

Cast away from you all the transgressions you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

02:17:20

Why will you die, oh, house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God, so turn and live.

02:17:27

Earlier in verses 20, he had said, I take no pleasure in death rather than, and Dr. Brown brought this out accurately, rather than you should repent.

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This is the kind of pleasure in the death of the wicked that he's talking about. Those individuals, rather than repenting, just bringing his judgment upon them, which is what they were saying he was doing.

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They were saying, you're unjust. You are punishing us. You are not allowing us to do what we desire to do.

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Even if we repented, it would not matter. But God is not saying that at all. He is contradicting their argumentation and saying, why will you die, oh, house of Israel?

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For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God. So turn and live. Do not use that proverb ever again as an excuse for not repenting.

02:18:12

That is the prophetic message. Now, the only way that there can be a problem with that is if you say, ah, and that means there is no eternal decree of God or something like that, which the text is not even addressing.

02:18:25

The prophet doesn't know who the remnant are. In fact, we have to ask ourselves a question. Who did repent and believe?

02:18:32

Well, the clue is right there, what I just said. Make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

02:18:39

In Ezekiel, what is that? What's gonna happen? Look at Ezekiel 36, Ezekiel 37.

02:18:45

Where's the new spirit and new heart come from? God takes out the heart of stone. He gives the heart of flesh.

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He blows his spirit over the dry bones and they come together and form living beings. This is the prediction of the coming of the new covenant, the new covenant made with the true people of God that God writes his law upon their heart.

02:19:06

But ironically, when the writer to Hebrews interprets texts like this about the old and new covenant, interestingly, he makes a statement in Hebrews chapter eight that he did not care for them.

02:19:17

And so he brings about a new people with a new covenant. Now, why would he interpret it in that particular fashion?

02:19:23

I don't know. But what's being expressed here, if the idea is, well, we need to expand this out to where God could not possibly have an eternal decree that includes the destruction of the evil to the glory of his justice, to the glory of his holiness.

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It could only be a decree where he wants to try to save everybody. He knows he's not gonna accomplish it, but he's just gonna try to save.

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And that's all that God can do. Well, I think we've seen that this is a rather slim foundation upon which to build something like that.

02:19:59

In light of what is actually being said. In reality, then, a number of other texts to look at.

02:20:05

One of them that I guess in Ezekiel 22, I think I just heard Dr. Brown saying that if an intercessor had been found in Ezekiel 22, then

02:20:15

God would not have destroyed his people. And yet there were all sorts of people who interceded for the house of Israel at times.

02:20:22

And in fact, Jeremiah, at one point, once God has made the decree, this people is going into destruction.

02:20:30

What does he say to Jeremiah? Do not intercede for this people. So the question then becomes, is

02:20:39

God only saying these things on the basis of passively taking in knowledge of, well,

02:20:44

I know what's gonna happen. I know what these people are gonna do. So now it's time to say, I'm gonna destroy them because I know they're gonna be destroyed anyways.

02:20:50

Is that the kind of sovereign decree that is going on here? Again, we want to allow scripture as a whole to speak.

02:20:59

There were times when God forbade people from doing things, such as he forbade the disciples from going into Asia to preach the word.

02:21:10

People died without Christ as a result. He forbade Jeremiah from interceding for the people.

02:21:17

Jesus in his high priestly prayer says, I do not pray for the world. We have to allow those texts into the discussion.

02:21:23

We cannot come to conclusions based upon God's refutation of a proverb that his covenant people were using by twisting his own scriptures.

02:21:32

We can't allow a conclusion based on that to overthrow the plain statements of scripture everywhere else that are actually addressing these particular issues.

02:21:41

I think it is significant that the text we looked at in the first half of the debate were specifically on the subject of salvation, justification, predestination, et cetera, et cetera.

02:21:51

Now we're taking texts to say, well, I think that because God expresses holy and just desires for his covenant people, therefore it means there cannot be anything about a specific predestination of a specific people, et cetera, et cetera.

02:22:06

I think that is a significant difference between the two positions as we look at these texts.

02:22:12

Okay, of course, the text last week, I believe I adequately exegeted contrary to the interpretations you were putting on them.

02:22:19

So now we're coming to other texts. First, the idea that Ezekiel 18 is addressing the concept that repentance would do no good,

02:22:28

I don't see that at all. They were simply saying we're suffering for what our fathers did and it's not fair. And God was saying, no, you do what's right, you'll be blessed.

02:22:37

But I see nothing in the text that says that they were using God's law to say that repentance was precluded.

02:22:43

No, I wasn't saying repentance was precluded. I'm saying that they are complaining. The ways of Yahweh are unjust.

02:22:48

Why are they unjust? Well, because we're suffering for what our fathers did and they were using that, however, as an excuse not to do what is right.

02:22:56

That's what the whole point. I didn't think that was even a disputable point. We have both come to the same conclusion that it is that proverb and the twisting of the

02:23:04

Deuteronomic law that is in view here. These people are saying, no, we don't have to listen to the prophetic word because the suffering is already predetermined for us.

02:23:14

So we're suffering for what our parents, our forefathers did. Okay, then just exegeting the text, you mentioned there's no reference to an eternal decree here, of course, because it's got to do with Ezekiel, that the texts were exegeting.

02:23:27

The question is, did God mean what he said? Did he genuinely desire that the wicked people would repent and live?

02:23:34

Even if he knew they wouldn't or in your theology ordained they wouldn't, did he genuinely desire that they would?

02:23:40

Again, we come back to the same question that we keep addressing over and over and over again. And I have affirmed over and over and over that God's law represents

02:23:49

God's holy desires. I do not believe, however, that that means that God was ignorant of what was happening, ignorant of their hearts, or that this overthrows

02:24:00

Ezekiel's own message, that he's the one that has to give them a heart of flesh before they can do any of this.

02:24:07

And it is his desire to give them a heart of flesh and he does, but he only does that to those who are the objects of his grace.

02:24:14

And clearly not all of Israel was. All right, so he only truly desired it for those that he had preordained it for, or did he have equal desire for some, in which case his desire is disappointed in some cases?

02:24:24

Again, you are confusing the desire represented in God's law that every person do exactly what is right before God with the desire that is expressed in his decree that he himself reserves for himself 7 ,000 to not bow the knee to Baal.

02:24:41

You have to see, Michael, there has to be a difference between God's desire in regards to 7 ,000 that he reserves and the 7 ,000 and first that he did not.

02:24:56

His actions demonstrate that there is some distinction. I simply have to allow that.

02:25:03

Okay, so you keep mentioning the eternal decree. So for you, that's a double decree.

02:25:09

He predestined some for eternal life and predestined some for damnation. Where is that ever, you constantly reference it as if it's written somewhere explicitly.

02:25:16

Where is that explicit decree of double predestination in a biblical text?

02:25:22

I'm seeking to just let the text speak for itself. You keep bringing up this eternal decree, which is a double predestination.

02:25:28

Where is it plainly expressed? Well, not only do I not believe in the form of predestination that you just mentioned, because you have committed the error of equal ultimacy, but I have not limited

02:25:41

God's eternal decree merely to the matter of salvation. I believe that it includes all of the actions in time, rendering purpose to every action in time, which includes the sins of men.

02:25:52

And I've brought those out in regards to the text in Isaiah, where he is with the beginning and the end, he accomplishes all his perfect will.

02:26:00

And unfortunately, I'm out of time. I'll try to add a few more to those in my closing statement as we go.

02:26:09

Michael, God reserved for himself 7 ,000 men who did not bow the knee to Baal, the remnant. Why is it your position that God's desire, because you've once used the word higher desire, and I don't think you used the term lower desire, but you used higher desire, and the only other complementary term would be lower desire.

02:26:30

Was it God's desire to save every Israelite equally?

02:26:37

Certainly. So, when he reserves 7 ,000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal, the remnant, what's the difference between number 7 ,000 and number 7 ,001?

02:26:53

The difference is the remnant. Many of the texts I quoted last week, that those that fear the Lord, God sets aside.

02:27:00

God preserves. God, in the midst of calamity, God will keep his people. It's always the way he set up.

02:27:06

His decree is that he would have a people after his own heart, and his decree will absolutely 100 % come to pass as we see in the book of Revelation, chapter seven.

02:27:14

So, his desires for Israel are expressed in all these texts that I've been quoting, and if we had time, I could have quoted many more.

02:27:20

And those that respond, those that hear, and those that humble themselves, he reserves. He sets apart. So, the reason that there are 7 ,000 is because there were only 7 ,000 people who feared the

02:27:32

Lord. God could not have reserved to himself 8 ,000, or he could not have reserved to himself 6 ,000, because the actual number was determined by men's free actions, not by God actually doing something according to his goodwill, because his goodwill is to reserve everybody.

02:27:53

His goodwill is that those who will humble themselves and repent will be blessed. His goodwill is that those who fear him and respond to his drawing will be blessed.

02:28:02

So, he accomplishes his will, and I would like it for everyone to do really well in a class, and I set things up that those that will abide by the rules will do well.

02:28:13

So, no, there was not a predestined 7 ,000 and God hardened the rest and made it impossible for them. There was just a tiny remnant that really feared the

02:28:20

Lord and responded. And the text really makes that clear when you look at it in context. So, God could not have, if those

02:28:27

God fears had not been there, God could not have had a remnant. Would he have had to start over with a new people? Ah, in the brilliance of God, God set things up that he would have a remnant.

02:28:37

See, you can only see his purposes being accomplished if everyone is turned into robots somehow. I see

02:28:42

God as so brilliant and sovereign that he brings his purposes to pass with limited freedom for his creation. Have I ever introduced the concept of robots?

02:28:50

No, but when you use monages and synergies in certain terms, they can be misunderstood. So, I threw out a term that could, that's the way what you're saying can sound to certain people.

02:28:58

Okay, well, but you've used it twice now. Was Herod a robot when he did exactly what

02:29:05

God's hand predestined to occur? It doesn't say that God predestined that Herod would do particular things before the foundation of the world, but that this man

02:29:15

Herod was the one that God was gonna use to accomplish a predestined purpose. In other words, God is working in the midst of billions of possibilities to bring out exactly what he wants.

02:29:26

And that's amazingly sovereign and wise. That's why we bow down and worship him. Mike, Michael, that's Molinism. I thought you did not embrace

02:29:32

Molinism. Why don't you define Molinism for your listeners? Well, what you just said was that God is working among all these billions of possibilities.

02:29:43

These, that's the concept of counterfactuals in these possible worlds.

02:29:50

And he knows what men are gonna do. And so, are you seriously saying then that that's your position?

02:29:58

I did not think that you held that position. No, I'm exegeting texts and just responding to questions.

02:30:04

And because you think in very sharp, clear terms, theological, philosophical terms, that I may not think in, that's how it may sound to you.

02:30:12

No, all I'm saying is that God uses certain people to accomplish certain purposes. So Herod was the right man to accomplish that with his wickedness, with his heart.

02:30:21

God can intervene whenever he chooses to, but the ultimate relationships he will bring about by response to his will.

02:30:30

I think we have to just go back to the fact that I'm doing my best time after time to quote scripture after scripture after scripture to say we're basing things on what the

02:30:39

Bible says. There is the prescriptive will of God where he says, don't murder, don't commit adultery.

02:30:45

And then there's his heart desire expressed in Deuteronomy, the fifth chapter, where he says, if only my people would keep my commands, that's my desire.

02:30:54

Ezekiel, the 18th chapter, this is what I desire. Matthew 23 that we quoted, I desire to gather your children together.

02:31:01

And then many other passages that we'll still look at in the last segment. The idea that God preordains people's sin and yet he commands them not to sin and not only commands them not to sin, but expresses his desire that they not sin speaks of a schizophrenic

02:31:17

God, not a sovereign God. The idea that God cannot give limited freedom to people and yet accomplish his will speaks of a

02:31:24

God that is less than sovereign and less than free himself in that sense.

02:31:31

And I noticed that Ezekiel 22, you never explained what it did mean, you just explained what it couldn't mean.

02:31:38

Without question, things get to a point and in my commentary on Jeremiah, I had to look at this very carefully where there's a point of no return and judgment must come and that is just when it happens.

02:31:48

But God's desire is always expressed in the same way, an ardent desire that people turn and live, an ardent desire that people repent.

02:31:56

You say, but that makes him powerless. No, that makes him feeling and compassionate and caring.

02:32:01

That's why right from the beginning of the Bible, by the time we get to Genesis 6 with the flood account, that God is grieved in his heart over the sins of human beings.

02:32:10

We have Jesus weeping over Jerusalem and says, if you've seen me, you've seen the father. This is not to trivialize

02:32:17

God, this is to magnify God. And again, the constant appeal to an eternal decree, alleged eternal decree that predestines even sinful actions of human beings against God's prescriptive will and against what he says he desires is contrary to scripture after scripture after scripture.

02:32:36

In certain instances, he will harden. In certain instances, he will cause certain things to happen but it's always in keeping with his justice, always in keeping with his goodness.

02:32:44

We have any question about it, we look ultimately at Jesus. Those are the texts we'll get to next in 1

02:32:50

John and 2 Peter as the son of God lays down his life for a sinning world. All right, since it was just mentioned,

02:32:58

I didn't give a positive exegesis of one of the numerous texts. The point of Ezekiel 22 is that God did not find any of his

02:33:06

God -fearers in Jerusalem at all. The people were totally corrupt. The time had come for destruction and so it's not that, well, if I found somebody that I wouldn't have done this.

02:33:18

The point was that the people are totally corrupt. He found no one to intercede. But it is amazing to me, again, it keeps coming back and I'm glad it is coming back to this.

02:33:27

Does God have a purpose that he is accomplishing in this world? Now, we keep hearing of the dozens and dozens of scriptures.

02:33:33

I wish we'd leave that out because I consider and say, oh, the dozens and dozens of scriptures. God accomplishes all his holy will in Psalm 135 and Nebuchadnezzar himself, who can stay in the hand of God?

02:33:44

He accomplishes it. I mean, we can go through all of these. But I think it's most important in this context to look at what was just said in regards to Herod.

02:33:54

One side is saying God raised up Herod because he knew what kind of a person

02:34:00

Herod would be and therefore he could use them in this way. Is that what you really think, listening audience?

02:34:06

Is that what you really think the early church was saying when after being persecuted, they gathered together, the church prays and part of their prayer in Acts 4 .27

02:34:15

through 28 is, for truly in this city, they were gathered together against your holy servant,

02:34:20

Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the

02:34:26

Gentiles and the peoples of Israel to do whatever your hand and your purpose predestined to occur.

02:34:35

Here is the early church absolutely affirming that the cross of Jesus Christ was the result of the father's predestination and the actions of all the men who will be held accountable for what they did.

02:34:53

Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Roman soldiers, the people of Israel all having completely different roles in this and different desires in this did whatever his hand and his purpose predestined to occur.

02:35:08

Now, I simply suggest to you that all statements about schizophrenic gods and everything to the side, the idea that God is schizophrenic is simply an unwillingness to recognize that we cannot see how

02:35:22

God's decree is always being worked out, but we know that it's there. We saw it in Ephesians 1, we saw it in John, we saw it in Romans 8 and 9, before the twins did anything good or bad, and we see it here, the early church believed that what happened with Jesus Christ is what his hand and his purpose had predestined to occur.

02:35:43

Not that he was working through all these possible worlds and coming up with the one that works,

02:35:49

God has a purpose that he is accomplishing. And we're now going to 1

02:35:55

John 2 .2 and Michael Brown, your eight minutes. All right, actually we start with 2

02:36:02

Peter 2 .1 which reads, but false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

02:36:14

Although there's a massive scholarly debate as to who the intended recipients of 2 Peter were, with the consensus being

02:36:20

Gentile believers in several locations, this issue need not detain us since the language of the passage is too clear and the implications too obvious.

02:36:27

Jesus bought people for himself who denied him and were bringing damnation on themselves. Let's focus on the key terms beginning with the

02:36:34

Greek word despotis, master, clearly borrowed from Jude 4 where Jesus is called despotis.

02:36:40

Elsewhere in the New Testament, despotis refers to the father, but here both the key terminology, which we'll examine next, and 2

02:36:46

Peter's dependence on Jude confirm that the master here is the Lord Jesus. The next important word is agorazo, bought, which occurs in several key redemptive contexts and ties in directly with the idea of Jesus being master.

02:36:59

A 2 Peter scholar, Richard Balcombe observed, Jesus is the master of his Christian slaves because he has bought them at the cost of his death.

02:37:06

It is implied the only allusion to the cross in 2 Peter. Thus we read in 1 Corinthians 6 .20 and 7 .23,

02:37:11

you were bought with a price, using the same Greek verb, speaking of the price that was paid for redemption. More powerful still is

02:37:17

Revelation 5 .9, you were slain and with your blood, you bought men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

02:37:24

As for the final key term, denying, the standard Greek verb are neomi is used and it's familiar to us in many contexts, such as Matthew 10 .23,

02:37:31

whoever denies me before men, I'll also deny before my father who's in heaven. Acts 3 .14, but you denied the holy and righteous one.

02:37:37

2 Timothy 2 .12, if we deny him, he'll also deny us. The meaning of 2 Peter 2 .1 is abundantly clear.

02:37:43

So clear in fact that without an external theological system being imposed on it, its meaning cannot be denied. As explained by Balcombe, 2

02:37:50

Peter does not deny that the false teachers are Christians, but sees them as apostate Christians who have disowned their master.

02:37:56

This would also be in harmony with Hebrews 10 .28 and 29. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses died without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

02:38:05

How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the one who has spurned the son of God and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and has outraged the spirit of grace?

02:38:14

Notice those words, the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified. Returning to 2 Peter 2 .1,

02:38:20

even if one wanted to argue that these false teachers were never believers, the overall truth emerges remains just as powerful as ever.

02:38:26

Jesus, the master, paid for their sins with his blood, but they denied him. The universal scope of the atonement is reinforced in 1

02:38:34

John 2 .2. He's the propitiation for our sins or the atoning sacrifice or the sacrifice that turns away

02:38:39

God's wrath, not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. To quote Stephen Smalley, one of the foremost scholars on the

02:38:46

Johannine letters, as in the Gospel of John, the scope of divine salvation is ultimately regarded as all -inclusive.

02:38:52

The fourth evangelist describes Jesus as the savior of the world. And here, John refers to him as the one whose atoning sacrifice relates to the sins of the whole world.

02:39:01

The adjective whole is intensive. The sacrificial offering of Christ is effective not just for the sins of the world, still is for our sins, meaning

02:39:08

John's immediate circle alone, embraces the sins of the whole world. Question is, how could this have been expressed any more clearly?

02:39:15

So let's examine the use of cosmos world in 1 and 2 John 2 .15

02:39:21

-17, repeatedly do not love the world and do the things of the world. 3 .1, the reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

02:39:28

3 .13, do not be surprised brothers that the world hates you. 3 .17, that if anyone has the world's goods.

02:39:33

4 .1, many false prophets have gone into the world. 4 .3, the spirit of the Antichrist is in the world already.

02:39:39

4 .4, he who's in you is greater than he was in the world. 4 .5, they're from the world, they speak of the world, the world listens to them.

02:39:45

4 .9, God sent his only son into the world that we might live through him. 4 .14, the father has sent his son to be the savior of the world.

02:39:52

4 .17, as he is, so are we in this world. 5 .4, everyone who's been born of God overcomes the world.

02:39:58

This is the victory that's overcome the world, our faith. 5 .5, who is it that overcomes the world except the one that believes

02:40:03

Jesus is the son of God? Then using the identical term, the whole world, 1 John 5 .19,

02:40:09

we know that we are from God and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. Then also 2 John 1 .7, for many deceivers have gone out into the world.

02:40:17

The evidence is overwhelmingly clear and consistent. The world, let alone the more inclusive term, the whole world, under no circumstances means the elect.

02:40:25

To quote Smalley again, the term cosmos appears in the letters in Gospel of John with two basic meanings, the created universe or life on earth and human society temporarily controlled by the power of evil organized in opposition to God.

02:40:39

As for the word holosomos, often translated propitiation, there's actually great scholarly debate about the precise meaning of the term as indicated by some of the alternative renderings suggested before.

02:40:50

As a footnote in the NET translation explains, the term can convey both the idea of turning aside divine wrath and the idea of cleansing from sin, both of which are certainly present in the cross through which

02:41:00

God offers cleansing to the entire world and through which he personally saves all who truly believe.

02:41:06

What is interesting from a philological and exegetical point of view is that holosomos sometimes translates Hebrew kippurim, atonement in the

02:41:13

Septuagint, as in Leviticus 25 .9, speaking of the day of atonement. And this provides a perfect parallel.

02:41:19

Just as the sacrifices offered on this day by the high priest made atonement possible for the entire nation, turning

02:41:24

God's wrath away from guilty sinners, it was effectual only for those who participated in the sacred rites of the day, according to Leviticus 23 .27

02:41:32

-30. As for the Calvinistic argument that John's readers were Jews and when he said the whole world, he meant the

02:41:38

Gentiles, not only is this stand in total contradiction to John's use of the term world elsewhere in his letter, but there's little or no evidence that John's readers were in fact all or even primarily

02:41:47

Jews, with many scholars taking this as a general epistle to believers in Asia Minor as per Revelation 2 and 3.

02:41:54

As for the notion that by our, John meant his circle of associates, the fact is his uses of the whole world would be strange and unprecedented way of speaking of the elect only.

02:42:04

If you say, but how could God love the whole world when we were told not to in 1 John 2 .15 -17, there's no conflict here since John is speaking of the ways of the sinful world in John 2 .15,

02:42:15

while he's speaking of the people of the sinful world in John 3 .16 and 1 John 2 .2. In both verses, however, it is clear that the world does not mean the elect.

02:42:23

If you say, but Jesus himself did not pray for the world in John 17 .9, but only for those whom the father gave him, that only further supports my point since one, in context, he was praying here for the first disciples only, and two, in John 17 .21

02:42:36

and 23, he prayed for unity for his disciples in him and with one another, quote, that the world may believe that you've sent me, that the world may know that you sent me and love them even as you love me.

02:42:47

There can be no doubt about the meaning of cosmos world. Looking then at the overall testimony of scripture, there's unanimity and clarity.

02:42:55

John 3 .16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

02:43:01

John 4 .42, we know that this is indeed the savior of the world. 1 Timothy 4 .10, the living

02:43:06

God who is the savior of all people, especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 2 .5 and 6, for there's one

02:43:11

God and one mediator between God and men, and the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all. Hebrews 2 .9,

02:43:17

Jesus crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God, he might taste death for everyone.

02:43:23

And again, 1 John 2 .2, he's the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

02:43:29

Let's let the word of God speak for itself. Jesus died for the whole world, and God in his predestined plan brought events, people, things together to carry out the crucifixion of Jesus and then to resurrect him from the dead.

02:43:42

That is our sovereign God. We bow down before him. His will is accomplished in breathtaking fashion, and he gets for himself a people from every tongue, kindred, nation that fear him and love him by the blood of Jesus.

02:43:54

Salvation is made possible for all and effective completely for those who put their trust in the Son of God.

02:44:01

All righty, right at exactly eight minutes. I am not going to carpet bomb with verses like this.

02:44:07

Obviously, I could respond to every single one of the texts that were just cited, but not in a debate format.

02:44:12

That was one of the reasons we wanted to do specific verses. Further, when Dr. Brown emailed me, the text for the third part is 1

02:44:19

John 2, 2 Peter 2 is put in parentheses, which was if you have time to get to it. So unfortunately, the majority of the time was spent on one that was actually in parentheses, at least as we communicate.

02:44:31

We might have had a problem with communication there. So I'm going to start with 1 John 2 because that was what we had posted.

02:44:38

And once again, the question really is not about the word world. It is about the word halasmos and what it means to have a parakletos.

02:44:48

My children, I am writing these things to you in order that you may not sin. And if anyone does sin, we have a paraklete.

02:44:55

We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. And he is the halasmos, the propitiation concerning our sins and not concerning ours only.

02:45:07

Notice that term manan only, but also concerning all the world. So we have a text here that emphasizes that the atoning blood of Christ is relevant to all the world, just as we had had in, for example,

02:45:23

John chapter 11, where the same author, unless you're Richard Baucom and you think they're different authors, but whereas the same author in discussing the issue of the high priest and his prophecy after the resurrection of Lazarus, if we let him go on like this,

02:45:40

John 11, 48, all men will believe in him and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation. But one of them,

02:45:45

Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, you know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people and that the whole nation not perish.

02:45:54

Now, he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation and not for the nation only, but in order that he might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

02:46:08

Same kind of language which we then find in Revelation chapter five, which again, most people think is the same author when he introduces us to those who have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb for by his sacrifice, he has made men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation a kingdom of priests unto

02:46:24

God his father. This is what Jesus Christ does. But what does 1 John 2 say?

02:46:31

That he is a halasmos, a propitiation. Well, I have a simple question for you. Is he or isn't he?

02:46:37

If the idea is that Jesus has substitutionally atoned for the sins of every single human being, and that's what this means.

02:46:47

Not that the gospel messages go out to everyone and that the gospel message will be valid in every generation and in every land and in every language, tribe, tongue, people, and nation.

02:46:57

If we wanna go beyond all of that and say, no, it's substitutionary atonement for every single individual, then we have two problems.

02:47:05

First of all, all their sins now have been propitiated. The very reason for the wrath of God, which is inherent in the term halasmos has been removed from them.

02:47:15

Not just potentially, but he is. It doesn't say he might be. He is the halasmos concerning our sins.

02:47:23

Not potentially, must be. And if you want to make this for every single person who has ever lived or ever will live, then that means that Jesus propitiated the wrath of God on behalf of the

02:47:34

Amorites before the Israelites came in and destroyed them. But what's more is, notice

02:47:40

John himself makes connection with parakletos, the paraclete, the intercessor. And that would mean we would have to believe that in this text, we are being told that Jesus is not only the halasmos, but he is also the paraclete, the one who intercedes in behalf of all those for whom his blood has been shed.

02:47:57

That was the role of the high priest. And so we are then being given the presentation.

02:48:04

And obviously this is going way beyond what the text says. I believe that the text simply says that we have warrant to preach the forgiveness of Christ to all men in every tribe, tongue, people, and nation, the whole world.

02:48:15

And that has been fulfilled and continues to be fulfilled this day. But to expand that out to assert substitutionary atonement in behalf of every single individual means that Jesus Christ must atone.

02:48:27

And intercede for every single individual, including those to whom God never even so much as sent an apostle.

02:48:36

And that is to go far beyond anything that the New Testament teaches, and to contradict the teaching of the book of Hebrews in regards to the perfection of the work of Christ.

02:48:45

And of course, the fact that his intercessory work and his sacrificial work are one in the same work and hence have the same audience.

02:48:52

Now in regards to 2 Peter chapter two, we had the emphasis that agaradzo here must mean purchased with his blood.

02:49:01

And yet, if you listened carefully, and if you've read the appendix that I've added to the Potter's Freedom, you'll see a discussion of this.

02:49:09

If you listen carefully, all the other texts that Dr. Brown cited where agaradzo was used had the price mentioned, did they not?

02:49:18

But not here. This would become the hotbox, the one place where if agaradzo means to buy by atonement, hence to propitiate, that this would be the one exception to the rule.

02:49:31

But I was interested that I did not hear any discussion of Deuteronomy chapter 32, which is a parallel text to this, where we have again talking about God's sovereignty.

02:49:44

They have acted corruptly toward him. They are not his children because of their defect, but are a perverse and crooked generation.

02:49:53

Do you thus repay Yahweh, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not your father who has bought you?

02:50:00

He has made you and established you. Notice that the terminology used here is directly parallel to what we have in 2

02:50:09

Peter. And as Gary Long has rightly deserved, the Hebrew term translated here in the

02:50:15

Greek Septuagint the Greek term is kata 'amai. The two words kata 'amai and agaradzo, agaradzomai, used interchangeably in two

02:50:25

Old Testament parallel accounts. He gives the references. These two words are also closely related in the New Testament compared to Peter's use of kata 'amai in Acts 118 and 820, where kata 'amai is translated respectively bought and buy in the

02:50:36

NIV and acquired and obtained in the New American Standard Bible. To assume that, especially in light of the use of despotas here, despotase, rather than kureas, which is almost always the terminology used in soteriological concepts, that this, again, judgment narrative is meant to lay out a doctrine of atonement is just simply in error.

02:51:02

I'm not gonna have time to read all of this, but Wayne Grudem says, so the text means not that Christ has redeemed these false prophets, but simply that they were rebellious

02:51:10

Jewish people or church attenders in the same position as rebellious Jews who were rightly owned by God because they had been bought out of the land of Egypt or their forefathers had, but they were ungrateful to him.

02:51:21

Christ's specific redemptive work on the cross is not in view in this verse.

02:51:27

So once again, why are we going to a text like 2 Peter 2 when we have

02:51:32

Hebrews 7 and Hebrews 10 that are specifically on this subject addressing the specific issue of the result of the atonement and the extent of the atonement?

02:51:44

And yet when we go to those texts, well, what do they say? That the atonement perfects those for whom it is made and that it has a specific audience for whom it is made as well.

02:51:55

Very important things to observe. We are at the point where Dr. Brown has four minutes to ask questions of me.

02:52:02

So Dr. Brown, your four minutes, sir. Just for the record, I did spend about two thirds of the time on 1

02:52:08

John 2 .2, but you said that, what John is saying is that the atonement is relevant for the whole world.

02:52:15

I don't see the word relevant there. I see that it is a propitiation for the whole world.

02:52:21

So on what basis do you add the words is relevant? No, I just simply said that, obviously, since we can go out and preach the gospel to every tribe, tongue, people, and nation, that means it is notus manna.

02:52:31

It is not for us only, but for the whole world. So there is absolutely no basis upon which saying this atonement, we've got it, it's for nobody else, that was clearly a concern in the early church.

02:52:45

We see that in the Acts Council, Acts 15. We don't want these other folks in there when it goes out to Samaria, et cetera, et cetera.

02:52:52

And so the assertion is this propitiation is, and I say relevant, what that means is, what

02:52:58

I meant by that is I can preach the gospel today to men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation because those are the ones who receive the benefit of Christ's perpetuatory work.

02:53:11

All right, so Acts 15, the question was, did these Gentiles have to become Jews? The question was not, was the atonement relevant?

02:53:17

No, I realize that, but it was also about the fact that there were Jewish people that were saying you had to become

02:53:22

Jewish before you could become a Christian and that would have created a Jewish Christian church and a

02:53:27

Gentile Christian church, and I think that was a pivotal point in church history. Right, but the point is,

02:53:33

I mean, looking at a text that does speak quite explicitly of the extent of the atonement, it says the whole world. I gave reference after reference to say how is kosmos used in 1

02:53:42

John? It's never used with reference to the elect or the elect only. I never said it was.

02:53:48

In fact, I didn't even address any of your discussion of kosmos because it was irrelevant to my position. There's at least 14 different uses of kosmos in Johannine Corpus alone, numerous in 1

02:53:57

John. The point is the contrast between manan and halu in 1

02:54:03

John 2 .2, that's all there is to it. All right, but none of the 14 uses in any major lexicon will say the elect, so how could it be put any more plainly?

02:54:13

I noticed you quoted a bunch of texts. Michael, Michael, I don't say it's the elect, so I'm not sure why you're asking me these questions.

02:54:19

Where am I saying it's the elect? He is the propitiation for the whole world and that in John is speaking of unregenerate.

02:54:27

That is speaking of, in your view, non -elect people. 1 John 5 .19 uses the identical terminology. The whole world lies under the power of the evil one.

02:54:35

How can you get around that? How is it? I'm not trying to get around anything because you're not listening to my interpretation.

02:54:42

I, one more time, not concerning ours only. What does that mean? I'm clearly, that would be an irrelevant statement if this was not part and parcel of what the apostle was trying to warn against.

02:54:58

Not concerning ours alone, but concerning the whole world. And so we don't keep it to ourselves.

02:55:05

There is no limitation to it. We can preach the message to anyone. It does not follow, however, that it is a substitutionary concept because of what holosmos means.

02:55:16

All right, there's great, we have no evidence, but by the time of 1 John, people were debating whether they should share with others.

02:55:22

So let's just straighten that point out. But when we try to find what holosmos means, massive scholarly debate in the lexicons, but thankfully we do have it used prior to that in the

02:55:30

Septuagint for the Day of Atonement, Kippurim. That was a perfect sacrifice in its time for the whole nation, but if you did not participate by faith and repentance, you were cut off.

02:55:42

It did not avail for you. That's the same with the blood of Christ. Well, interestingly enough, and I think that was meant to be a question, interestingly enough, that's the whole point.

02:55:50

The offering was never meant to be substitutionary for the whole world. It had a limitation in the

02:55:56

Old Testament. When the high priest offered it, it was only for those who drew near. There was a specificity in it at that time, just as there is a specificity in it as well now.

02:56:06

Four minutes. Dr. Brown, continuing that phrase then, do you believe that the wrath, that the term holosmos includes the concept of removing the reason for wrath on God's part?

02:56:21

Yes, and when we come to God by faith, that's fully realized. Just as you and I, who are believers now by God's grace, according to Ephesians 2, once were objects of God's wrath by nature.

02:56:32

So we were under wrath, even though Jesus had already died for us. So we came in repose of faith, then the punishment is removed.

02:56:38

So if a uncircumcised Egyptian came to Jerusalem at the time of the offering, then you believe that the offering would have availed for him as well, as long as he said,

02:56:52

I believe. If he joined himself to the people of Israel, of course, the foreigners were taken in, like Ruth and others like that.

02:57:01

And again, the atonement was for the entire nation, just like the sacrifice of Jesus is for the entire world, but it was made for the entire nation.

02:57:09

The text is explicit, but it only availed for those who came in repentance and faith. So there was a limitation when the high priest went into the

02:57:17

Holy of Holies and presented the blood, for whom was the blood being presented?

02:57:23

The entire nation. The entire nation, not those who believe. The entire nation, only those who believed would benefit from it.

02:57:31

So it did not, it only removed wrath. It was only partially propitiatory or fully propitiatory.

02:57:41

It was fully propitiatory because God at that moment should have wiped out the whole nation and he didn't. Yet, if you did not come in repentance, then your sins would be on your own head once again.

02:57:49

So is it your belief then, given what you just said, that Jesus is acting as an intercessor, pleading his blood in behalf of Pharaoh, his army, and the

02:58:03

Amorites? Where would we tie that in with the discussion that we're having?

02:58:09

Just so I answer correctly. Because if his atonement is for the whole world, and I'm assuming you mean all men past, present, future who've ever lived, all the human race, and his intercession is clearly for the same people, unless the high priest was interceding for somebody different than the people for whom the sacrifice had been offered, then it would follow that you believe that Jesus is interceding before the

02:58:33

Father for Pharaoh, his armies, the Amorites, Herod, Pilate, because they're all part of the human race, right?

02:58:42

The whole damnable human race, just as on the cross he says, for they know not what they do.

02:58:49

Yes, he lays down his life for an entire sinning world that God should have wiped out, and if we come to repentance in faith, it avails for us.

02:58:57

There are also different types of intercession, as we see in John 17, where he first praised just for the first disciples, then praised for others, et cetera.

02:59:04

So he's praying for me and you differently than he's praying for someone that's not in the faith yet, and we don't have further details on that, so it's unwise to speculate and go beyond what's written in scripture.

02:59:14

Except it is written in scripture that he enters into the holy place having obtained eternal redemption.

02:59:20

Isn't that a very explicit statement? He has absolutely obtained eternal redemption, and I am eternally redeemed, and the way that he set it up was that all who respond in faith, whoever believes, will be saved.

02:59:31

I mean, there's verse after verse after verse after verse. So he has obtained, purchased the eternal redemption of all those who put their trust in him.

02:59:38

As some Calvinists will say, it's sufficient for the entire world, but it's efficient only for the elect.

02:59:43

But if it is substitutionary, that means the wrath that was due to Pharaoh for his sin fell on Jesus, right?

02:59:52

The wrath that was due to every human being for their sin fell on Pharaoh, but again, as I pointed out, we were, in our unsaved days, we were objects of wrath.

03:00:01

So even though Jesus had paid for it, until we put our faith in him, the wrath remains upon us.

03:00:07

Okay, I'm out of time. Three -minute closing statement, here you go. You know, I'm asked to bring a text that speaks of the extent of the atonement, and I do.

03:00:17

And then I quote many other passages to point out that this is the overall plain sense of the scripture.

03:00:23

That's why it's so shocking to many non -Calvinists to hear that Calvinists do not believe that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world.

03:00:30

I don't know how it could be said any more clearly. I don't know how we could exegete the text any more clearly in terms of John's use of cosmos, in terms of what it means both in the gospel of John and in 1 and 2

03:00:41

John. The whole world that lies into the power of the evil one is the whole world for which Jesus died.

03:00:46

That's the incredible message of the gospel, that the sinning, profane, ugly world, rather than God damning and destroying all of us, instead he sends his son to die for us, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

03:00:59

When we get back to 2 Peter chapter two, I was a little surprised in the treatment of Agorazzo when you said that the rule is it's always used with the price that's actually paid.

03:01:07

Well, it's used three other times, one in the context of 1 Corinthians six and seven, the other in the context of Revelation the fifth chapter.

03:01:15

It's hardly a pervasive usage. And if that is not a reference to the cross there, then there's actually not an explicit reference to the cross and all of 2

03:01:22

Peter. I also find it interesting that you have to quote a passage in Deuteronomy 32 and then say, but actually in the

03:01:27

Septuagint, it doesn't use the same word, but it's a similar word. Well, hang on. New Testament authors are very careful in their quotations from the

03:01:34

Septuagint. And the fact is Agorazzo, as best as I can tell, in Septuagint, the reference is never used for God redeeming his people out of Egypt.

03:01:43

It's not the word that's used. So the only references that we can find would be references that speak of the cross.

03:01:49

But again, this is consistent New Testament usage, as I quoted from Hebrews the 10th chapter, that people can sin against the blood by which they were sanctified.

03:01:59

It doesn't mean the blood by which Jesus was sanctified as commentators recognize, but the blood by which we have been sanctified.

03:02:05

We can sin against that grace. We were objects of wrath, even after Jesus died for us.

03:02:11

But when by God's grace, he responded to his loving call to repent and believe, we have been eternally saved.

03:02:17

The blood of Jesus accomplishes what God desires. And I want to reemphasize God's sovereign will is done.

03:02:23

He's the only one with an almighty will. He brings his will to pass and gets for himself a people from every tribe, tongue, nation.

03:02:30

The blood of Jesus avails. God's purposes are accomplished. We bow down and worship before our sovereign

03:02:35

God. And it has been a joy and a privilege, James, to engage you. All right, thank you very much, Michael.

03:02:41

I think we might get somewhat close to time here. Just very, very quickly in passing, it was just mentioned that in Hebrews 10, well, no, that's the blood by which the apostate was sanctified rather than Jesus.

03:02:54

Well, I would just direct you to John Owen's fine comments on that in his massive commentary on Hebrews as to whether that is the case or not.

03:03:01

But I would direct folks. We just heard, I think, the presentation idea that there's different kinds of intercession before the father in regards to the finished work of Christ.

03:03:12

Where were the different kinds of intercession by the high priest in the Old Testament? I don't believe that that's the meaning of intercession in the

03:03:19

New Testament. In Hebrews, when Jesus intercedes, he intercedes for a specific group and he saves them to the uttermost as a result of his intercession.

03:03:29

It says, why can he save them to the uttermost? Because he ever lives to make intercession for them. The whole idea of the text in Hebrews 7 is that Jesus intercedes before the father on your behalf.

03:03:40

Your salvation is absolutely certain. And this is why I debate this issue because it seems to me that what my dear brother is saying here is that Jesus, if I think he just said that Jesus is interceding for Pharaoh and for the

03:03:58

Amorites. And if that is the case, then there remains no longer any real confidence to stand before a holy

03:04:09

God, because that isn't enough. You have to add something to it.

03:04:14

The wonderful message is that what the accomplished work of Jesus Christ has given to us is not only that the wrath due to our sins has been propitiated fully by our

03:04:25

Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. As Paul says, I have been crucified with Christ.

03:04:30

I say to you, no person in hell will ever be able to say those words. But not only has my standing with God been purchased by that perfect word, but everything that I need to experience that, including the gifts of faith and repentance.

03:04:48

That is why he can justly treat me with mercy because his perfect wrath has been propitiated in my place.

03:04:59

And if that is the case, then why is Pharaoh suffering today? If the reason of God's wrath, which includes unbelief has been propitiated.

03:05:11

Truly, when you listen to what has been said here, you need to go back to the foundations.

03:05:17

Dr. Brown says, well, I just want to execute the text of scripture. We both say we're doing that. We both want to believe only what scripture says, but there has to be a recognition of what is the most important foundational things and what comes secondarily.

03:05:33

And I believe what God has revealed about himself and his relationship to his creation as the creator must come first.

03:05:41

It doesn't come after what we determine about the creature and his creation. All right, well, that makes for three hours of exchange.

03:05:50

Thank you very much, Dr. Brown. I'm going to wrap this up very quickly because I know you have a program to do in only half an hour.

03:05:57

What's your topic today, by the way? Today, I do questions and answers because we have a prerecorded show tomorrow.

03:06:06

So any folks that are listening to the debate that want to call in and challenge me on the air, go for it. And then

03:06:11

I've got another broadcast to do after that. Well, hey, I gave you a new listener last time because Johnny called in and asked about Melchizedek and you seem to enjoy the questions.

03:06:21

So there you go. Johnny's one of our regulars. Let me just say again that I take this debate so seriously because I know you love the

03:06:31

Lord and you're committed to truth and you're zealous for it and you're serious about the word. So I really count it a joy and privilege to engage you in the text.

03:06:37

Well, Michael, I think we've set a standard. I think we've demonstrated that, especially today, you can speak your mind, but you don't have to do it with anger towards somebody else.

03:06:52

It, for a lot of people, as I mentioned in my blog article, makes them very uncomfortable that we are doing this.

03:06:57

There's people on both sides of our dispute that probably aren't happy with us for doing this, but I think it's important that we did it, that we demonstrated that it can be done in an appropriate fashion.

03:07:09

And as such, I thank you very much for engaging with me and I look forward to when we do this in a more face -to -face setting sometime in the future.

03:07:21

Alrighty? Did we lose him? Nope, still there? Still there, Michael?

03:07:27

Well, I guess we lost him. All right. All right, well, thanks for listening to the Voting Line today. It has been quite the interesting exchange.

03:07:34

Go back, we'll put all these, let's just go ahead and put these together and make it one debate.

03:07:40

I think that'll be easier for folks to listen to. Thanks for listening to the Voting Line. We'll be back again on Tuesday, Lord willing, the regular time, 11 o 'clock.