October 25, 2018 Show with Timothy Shafer and Dr. D. G. Hart On “Spirit & Truth: The Protestant Reformation & Worship Today”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth.

We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday.

On this 25th day of October 2018, I'm delighted to have two first -time guests

today.

The first guest for the first hour will be Timothy Schaefer, a professor of piano

at the Penn State University School of Music and an elder at Resurrection Orthodox

Presbyterian Church in State College, Pennsylvania.

And in the second hour, we're going to be joined by Dr. D .G. Hart, Distinguished Associate Professor

of History at Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan.

Both men are going to be speaking on the theme, Spirit and Truth, the Protestant Reformation and

Worship Today.

We're also going to be promoting a Reformation conference on that very same theme that will be held

on Reformation Day, October 31st at Resurrection Orthodox Presbyterian Church in State College,

Pennsylvania.

But first, let me formally introduce our first guest.

As I mentioned, Timothy Schaefer is professor of piano at the Penn State University School of Music.

He's an elder at Resurrection Orthodox Presbyterian Church in State College, Pennsylvania, music consultant for the

recently published Trinity Psalter Hymnal and an active performer and master class

teacher, having taught and performed solo recitals, concerts, and chamber music

throughout the United States, Brazil, and Asia.

His writings on music appear in several periodicals and in two volumes of The Pianist's Craft.

He has recently recorded a CD of newly commissioned hymn arrangements for two horns,

soprano, and piano with hornists Lisa Bontrager and

Grace Salyards, and I probably mispronounced both of those names, and I'll find out, and a soprano,

Sarah Schaefer.

The album will appear under the MSR Classics label and is due for release in late

2018, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio,

Timothy Schaefer.

Thank you, Chris.

It's very nice to be here.

So did I butcher the two names of the hornists?

Your pronunciation was perfect.

Really?

Okay, that always surprises me whenever that happens, and it does happen more than I believe.

Well, tell us something about Resurrection Orthodox Presbyterian Church in State College,.

Pennsylvania.

Well,

I'm glad

to.

We

were

begun

in 2011.

Well, you

gotta explain more

what you mean about the mobile church there.

Well, we don't have a building of our own in two different locations.

Okay, great.

Now, tell us about this upcoming conference on Reformation Day, Spirit and Truth, the Protestant Reformation, and Worship

Today.

Yes, the conference is taking place Wednesday

evening.

Well,

we're

going

to be

giving this

information later,

God

willing,.

But for those of you who want to attend the Spirit and Truth

conference on Reformation Day, go to resurrectionopc .org.

Resurrection O -P -C for Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

Resurrectionopc .org, and you can find out more information about that.

It's immediately on the screen when you go to that website.

Well, now I'd like you to do something that we normally have our first -time guests do if they are

Christians.

The vast majority of time, I guess, are Christians, but once in a blue moon, I do have somebody on who's not.

But if you could give a summary of your coming to faith in Christ,

what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what providential circumstances our Sovereign

Lord raised up in your life.

That drew you

to

Himself

and saved you.

Yes, my family

attended, and

that church, USA, and the materials

changed.

I still

have

many of those

materials.

Was that a mainline,.

More liberal church, or was it one of the few remaining

truly biblical, evangelical,.

Conservative

Methodist churches?

It was, I

would say, what

I believe,

providentially.

When did

Reformed

theology actually

take root in

your

life,.

Especially since that didn't seem to be a part of the reason you joined the OPC initially, but now since you're an

elder, I'm assuming that you are theologically Reformed.

How did you.

Discover and embrace Reformed theology?

It was largely through R .C. Sproul's writings and radio show.

Well,

praise

God.

Well,

how long has

music been a

part of

your

life?

When did you

realize.

That you had a gift in music, specifically the piano?

And tell us about the journey that you were.

On

excelling in that

field.

Five, my mom was a

pianist.

Oh

yeah,

right.

I

remember

seeing

a.

Documentary on Finney and hearing about his connection with that school, and also a very eye

-opening documentary about how far from the gospel he truly was.

Absolutely.

He graduated.

And went to Indiana

University.

Now,

for someone

who is an elder in an

Orthodox

Presbyterian

church.

And someone who is also involved in music in the secular realm,

I was wondering how broad your musical tastes

are, not only in regard to listening, but also playing and performing.

I happen to have a very wide spectrum of music that I listen to,

but having said that, I am fairly reserved and

strict as to what I believe is appropriate for worship

during the regular gathered assembling of

the believers on Sunday.

Now, I have a broader even spectrum of music that I listen to and enjoy

that is Christian outside of the confines of that.

For instance, I even enjoy, when it's done well and when you can understand

the words and the words are actually biblically deep, I actually enjoy occasionally hearing Christian

rap.

Having said that, I would never ever want that to be a part of a worship service.

So just tell me about yourself.

In that regard.

Well, I would say I

have a variety of music.

Oh, so

do I, so do

I.

The Whites, I love the soundtrack to Oh Brother Where Art Thou.

Yes, Dora Lawson, Quicksilver, groups like that.

I can enjoy country music

also.

Now, this

brings me

to a question that seems to.

Divide brothers and sisters in Christ, even very conservative ones.

I happen to believe that there are melodies and rhythms and beats

that are inappropriate for worship because there are certain melodies

and rhythms and beats that are purposefully intended to create a

mood and an emotional atmosphere that is not conducive of worship.

I think that there are melodies, rhythms, and beats that are purposefully created to

emote sexual desire, or at least the imagery of that.

And there is obviously melodies, rhythms, and beats that are intended for humor.

I mean, there's a reason that the circus uses certain kinds of music that would not

be appropriate in a church service.

There is reasons why the military uses music to

evoke certain moods in regard to the military and

so on.

So I think that it is a fallacy.

There are Christians, there are many, and maybe you're one of them, I don't know yet.

But there are many Christians that I've spoken to who believe that any melody, rhythm, or beat

is completely fine in a worship service.

It's the words alone, the lyrics to the music that matter.

I disagree with that because I think that you would have to be denying reality to

deny that melodies, rhythms, and beats create moods.

And you would have to be insane to believe that any mood is appropriate in a worship service.

So what do you have to say to.

That?

Well,

and

music taps

into

that, what we

look

like,

whom we feel sad, see

body languages,

music that the melodies

descend.

And there

are churches

that

gravitate

on

occasion to

one.

Mood or emotion over and above all others.

You have the Charismatic and Pentecostal churches that might only sing and

play music that evokes joy and excitement and exuberation and

so on.

And you may have some of our Reformed brethren who go overboard on the

solemnness, and you never feel like you are outside of a funeral

parlor when you're in the worship service.

I know that that is a caricature of all of us who are Reformed, which is a slanderous caricature when you broad

brush the entirety of the Reformed churches.

But we have to admit that we can be guilty of that, at least certain congregations can be.

But what is your opinion on that?

What kind of a mixture do you think that the sermon should dictate the

moods of the hymns, or should there always be both at least?

I mean, I don't have any problem with having a worship service on occasion or

even frequently where the music is predominantly joyful or emoting that kind of

an emotion, but I don't think that the somberness should be excluded entirely

always.

Just curious what your opinion is on this.

Martin Luther famously said that music is the handmaiden of theology, and

so as

what music

that day

might be more

solemn than it is

in the

Gospels,

hymns that are selected and

the psalms...

Now as far

as the lyrics are concerned,.

One of my great heroes of the faith, modern day hero, who is now with the Lord for eternity, Dr. James Montgomery

Boyce, former pastor of 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, and also a

very well -known author and Bible conference speaker, and

happens to still be used of our Lord through his writings and through his

DVDs and CDs.

He is still being used to lead people to salvation that I have met personally, and also lead people

into the Reformed faith.

Even pastors have been led to the Reformed faith that I know personally through hearing and

reading Dr. Boyce.

But I remember him on a number of occasions being very vociferously

opposed to Christian hymnody or Christian music

that contained lyrics that were little more than mantras.

The repetition of a few lines over and over and over again, and almost

to bring the singers and the listeners into some kind of hypnotic state.

I can remember, and I'm not exaggerating at all, and I hope that some of my friends, if

they're from this church and they're listening, I hope that they're not offended.

But I was invited to an Assemblies of God congregation, and I love the people there, I love the leadership there,

friends of mine.

But I sat in utter amazement, or should I say, stood in utter amazement during the opening

song.

And after a while, I stopped singing it.

I got so angry I stopped singing it.

But the only line in this song for about five minutes was,

this is how we worship him, clap your hands.

This is how we worship him, clap your hands.

And I remember thinking that I would have been upset even if I had a young child

in some kind of a Christian daycare or children's

worship service that was segregated from the major population of the church.

If the youth leaders or the caretakers of these children were teaching,

if I had a child, if they were teaching my child to sing in that way, I would even be upset then, let alone

a room filled with hundreds of adults.

So that was a long -winded way of saying, what about the lyrics?

Don't we need to be careful about that kind of thing?

Oh, absolutely.

The mantra -like repetition that you're describing is, I think it falls into two

basic categories.

It's, on one side, it's a little bit like we read of what Finney did

in whipping up attendees into a, this

is very similar to that

at the beginning of a

sort of

repetition.

Of course, repetition is not bad in and of itself, because even some of the Psalms

have repetition in it.

It's just when it comes to the point of being ridiculously excessive and so.

On.

Exactly.

Repetition is a vital part of music making, particularly.

All right, we're going

to come back after this first station break.

If you have any questions.

For Tim, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please, as always, give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your own congregation's choice of music or something, and you don't want to identify

yourself.

That's completely understandable.

But if it's not a personal and private matter, please give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

We may even have Tim play something for us on the piano.

If we reach that point, Tim, and I'm going to leave that up to you, please

put the microphone of whatever you're using, a phone or however you are conducting the interview, as close to the

keys as possible so that we can clearly hear what you're playing.

And don't go away.

God willing, we are going to be right back after these messages from.

Our sponsors.

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We are now back with today's guest.

And as I said earlier, we have two different guests today.

During the first hour, we have Tim Schafer, Professor of Piano at the Penn State University School of

Music and Elder at Resurrection Orthodox Presbyterian Church in State College, Pennsylvania.

And coming up in the second hour, we will be joined by Dr. D .G. Hart, Distinguished Associate Professor of

History at Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan.

They are both speaking at a Reformation Day conference on Wednesday, October 31st

at Resurrection Orthodox Presbyterian Church in State College, Pennsylvania, on the theme, Spirit and Truth, the

Protestant Reformation and Worship Today.

If you have questions for our guests, go to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at

gmail .com.

And Tim, do you have time now to play

some music for us and give us the reason that you wanted our.

Listeners to hear these bits of music from you?

Sure thing, Chris.

Thank you.

I mentioned the trip earlier this

year.

I think that there were about 40 ,000 copies printed, and those copies were all sold out.

We're now on our

second printing.

Wow.

To do one of those

complete setting of every

psalm, all set

to

one tune.

Musically, we thought very consciously

that we chose.

I'd like to

give

you a

couple of,

just

listen to these

opening two

phrases.

No harmony.

Yes, it

was.

Can

you

hear me,

Tim?

Yes, it

was.

Yes, good.

And

what

you

just

said, I

think,.

Is key to the conflict in the church over music in regard to worship

versus entertainment.

I mean, it has, I think, a place in what you're saying.

I mean, do you agree with that?

Yes.

Like one of the reasons, for instance, I mentioned earlier that on occasion when it's done very well,

I enjoy sometimes hearing a very biblical rap song.

There are some very talented hip -hop singers who are Christian who have very

deep theological lyrics and so on, and they do their raps very well, and I enjoy that.

But I don't want that in a worship service.

I would probably be tempted to walk out of a worship service doing that, because the

entertainment aspect of that kind of art so overrides worship to me.

In fact, I'm an enormous, for lack of a better term, fan

of congregational singing and congregational worship, and I think that even classical

Christian music, very well done, can become entertainment and override the

call and biblical duty of the congregation to worship.

But if you could just glue those things together for.

Us from what you just did.

Yes, I totally agree with what you said.

If the Lord calls us to make melody to

him,

not to

be

a part of that,

then...

We have Susan

Margaret

in

Dauphin

County,.

Pennsylvania, who says, I have heard that Martin Luther borrowed melodies for his

hymns straight out of the tavern.

Is that true, and is that an acceptable thing to do?

That's a myth.

And the myth...

Has nothing to do with a

tavern.

That's right.

It has nothing to do with a tavern.

These are musical structures, and they're Germanic.

They have their roots in Germany, and when Luther borrowed a bar tune, we're speaking about

a tune, and then a

repetition or a variation of that small phrase, and then a

contrasting

phrase.

Now, let's say, for sake of argument, it did, or some of the songs,.

One of the songs did.

Does that innately remove it from acceptability

as the melody for a hymn?

I mean, as I was saying before, I believe that melodies and rhythms and beats

produce emotions, and very often those that compose them will be very open and

detailed, explaining the very thing they are trying to produce in regard to emotion.

Many composers are very clear that I intended to produce a sensual, seductive

sound, or whatever the case may be.

But if you find a melody to a secular song, for instance, that is just a beautiful

melody...

Let's say, for instance, somebody took the melody to a very

horrible song when it comes to the lyrics.

I think Imagine by John Lennon is a horrible song as far as what the

lyrics teach.

But the melody is a captivating melody.

There's something quite beautiful about it, and I think that that's why many people love the song Imagine

without even really paying attention to the lyrics.

I'm amazed at people who have chosen that song for a funeral,

especially the funeral of a young child, and I've seen that happen and heard that

happen, where after the death of a child, the parents have chosen Imagine as one of the songs during the funeral.

I'm thinking to myself, imagine there's no heaven?

You want to imagine that after the death of a child?

But anyway, what I'm saying,.

Does it

make sense?

It does make sense.

I don't think it

automatically precludes three,

and I

don't think that they're precluded, but I think that we have to be very careful with this,

but it also communicates...

For instance, a 16th century

tavern song, few people today would recognize one.

Exactly.

Right.

It would not have strong associations today.

I think we have

to be very

careful about that.

We're ought to be,

and that culture of the liturgy...

Let's see here.

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks,

can music itself, no matter how beautiful and biblical it is, dominate a service

where it.

Far out times, excuse me, far out

times, I guess he means the length of time,.

The actual preaching of the word?

I think we can find examples of that, yes.

You can find examples in the Bible, or do you mean just historically?

I mean, I think in even current modern day worship

practices, not a music center.

Well, thank you, Arnie.

Keep listening in Perry County, Pennsylvania, and spreading the word in Perry County and beyond about Iron Trip and

Zion Radio.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, I think far too

often when we sing the beautiful hymns that we have come to love in our faith,

at times the hymns contain words that neither the pastor nor the

song leader define for us.

Don't you think that we should know what these words mean, such as bring

forth the holy diadem and so on?

Shouldn't we know what these words mean before we're singing them?

Yes.

RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, could you list a few of your favorite.

Contemporary Christian artists?

Well, at the beginning of our, I mentioned that my

texts run toward, I'm from

West

Virginia

originally,

so it's kind of

the music of my style,

it's

additive.

Now, it's interesting

that you said that, because one of my favorite.

Contemporary Christian artists, I don't know if he would fit in that category, but sometimes his music

certainly drifts into that category.

Michael Card has always been one of my favorite Christian artists, contemporary Christian artists,

and sometimes he's got some real hard guitar, electric guitar jamming in there,

and many other times he's just got very tranquil music accompanied by piano

and so on, but he does seem to utilize both styles, but he happens to be

one of my favorites.

Keith Getty and his wife, they have written some really wonderful

modern -day hymns that, in fact, the congregation where I'm a member, Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, which is a very

traditional Reformed Baptist Church when it comes to worship, you don't get

too many very upbeat contemporary songs

sung in that congregation, but we do sing quite a bit.

Of Keith Getty's music.

Are you familiar with him?

Yes,

I'm looking to be spiritually moved.

I quite often listen to hymn

arrangements.

I want you to

have the

next three minutes to just.

Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners.

Uninterrupted.

Before our

time is over

for this

first

hour.

I would

say to

think on

the things

we

create of

our day,

that it's hard to

listen to

music for

us,

to take advantage of listening to the great music that is available there.

We think about music for worship, we need to think,

what does the Word say?

What does

that,

can that?

Well, let me remind our listeners, if you are.

Interested in attending the upcoming Reformation Day conference, it's actually being held on

Reformation Day, not Reformation Sunday, but Wednesday, October 31st at the Resurrection

Orthodox Presbyterian Church of State College, Pennsylvania, featuring Timothy Schaffer, who you

just heard as our first guest, and also our second guest, Dr. D .G. Hart.

That's Wednesday, October 31st in State College, Pennsylvania.

You can go to the website of Resurrection Orthodox Presbyterian Church, which is

resurrectionopc .org, resurrectionopc, for orthodoxpresbyterianchurch

.org.

Thank you so much, Tim, for being our guest.

I look forward to.

Your return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Thank you.

It's my pleasure to be here.

Tell Daryl that we're really looking forward to his visit next week.

I will do that.

Well, God bless you.

You.

Too.

Bye -bye now.

And don't go away, folks, because as I mentioned, after this midway station break, we're going to be joined by D

.G. Hart, aka Daryl Hart, who is the Distinguished Associate Professor of History

at Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan.

He is going to be continuing our discussion on Spirit and Truth, the Protestant Reformation and Worship today.

If you have a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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James White here, co -founder of Alpha Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm so delighted.

My friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 Conference from January 17th to the

19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme, A Biblical

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Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Bodhi Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe,

Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more.

I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event.

For more details, go to g3conference .com.

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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We have a few announcements before we move on to our second guest,

Dr. D .G. Hart on Spirit and Truth, which is our theme today.

First of all, next month, November 9th and the 10th, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their

annual Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quakertown.

I hope you join me there.

The theme is the glory of the cross, and the speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and

Carlton Winn.

If you would like to join me there, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events,

and then click, or should I say scroll down to Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology.

Then coming up in January from the 17th through the 19th, that's a Thursday through Saturday, the G3

Conference returns to the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of

Atlanta.

The roster is, as always, enormous and really impressive at the G3

Conference.

Dr. James R. White, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson,

Voti Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M. Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson,

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J. Nichols, who is the president of Reformation

Bible College, the college founded by R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on the roster at the G3

Conference.

Go to g3conference .com to register, g3conference .com.

There is also a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference on Wednesday the 16th of January, so tell your Spanish -speaking and

bilingual friends about that.

But for the English Conference, that is the 17th through the 19th, Thursday through Saturday in

January, and I hope you join me there.

I hope you also register for an exhibitors booth because they are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000

people there, so if you have a church, parachurch, ministry, or business that you want to promote in that

crowd of between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people, I highly recommend that you do just like I did and register

for an exhibitors booth, and I hope to see you there at the G3 Conference January 17th through

the 19th in College Park, Georgia at the Georgia International Convention Center.

Last but not least, if you love my show, Iron Trip and Zion Radio, you love the guests and the topics we

cover, you love sharing the free MP3s with others,

well, please donate as heavily as you can and as frequently as you can to Iron Trip and Zion Radio to

keep us on the air.

Go to IronTripandZionRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now,

and you will be able to donate instantly with a debit or credit card.

You can also send in a check via snail mail the old -fashioned way to the address that appears on your screen when you click support

at IronTripandZionRadio .com.

My caveat every day that I announce to you is never, never siphon money away from your regular giving to the

local church where you are a member in order to give to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Those two things are commands of God providing for your family and church.

Providing for Iron Trip and Zion Radio is not a command of God, but if you're financially blessed above and beyond your ability to

obey those two commands and you love this show and you don't want it to go away, please go to

IronTripandZionRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now, or send in a check via

snail mail.

If you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com and put

advertising in the subject line and we would love to help you launch an ad campaign as long as whatever it is you are promoting

is compatible with what we believe on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

You don't have to believe identically with me, you just need to believe or promote something I should say that is compatible

with what we believe here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

That is by the way the same email address where you can send in a question to Dr. D .G. Hart.

That email address once again is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail

.com and please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And that leads me to introduce our second guest today.

Our second guest is Dr. D .G. Hart, Distinguished Associate Professor of History at Hillsdale College in

Hillsdale, Michigan, and he is going to be continuing the theme that we began with our

first guest, Timothy Schaeffer, who is also speaking at the same conference, which is

Spirit and Truth, the Protestant Reformation and Worship Today, the theme of the upcoming Reformation Day conference

being conducted by Resurrection Orthodox Presbyterian Church in State College, Pennsylvania.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Dr. D .G. Hart.

Thanks, great to be with you.

And why don't you tell our listeners about Hillsdale College.

I know that Hillsdale College has become fairly well known amongst

conservatives in America regardless of their religious affiliation.

I know that you will hear occasional ads on the radio during the Rush Limbaugh program and other places

promoting Hillsdale College.

Why don't you tell us about.

That?

Well,

we as much in

some of the

STEM,

but we've

been 70 or

so

when

on campus,

it's a

profile would suggest.

And tell us about the history course that you teach there.

Well, I teach, everyone in the

history department

teaches two weeks,

but we

try to

cover

the main develop

a number

of different subjects.

Great.

Well, if

anybody has any further information.

That they'd like to discover about Hillsdale College, go to hillsdale

.edu, H -I -L -L -S -D -A -L -E .edu.

Now, this is a very important subject that

we are addressing at the upcoming Reformation Conference being conducted by the Resurrection Orthodox

Presbyterian Church in State College, Pennsylvania.

Spirit and truth are obviously two very important elements, vital

elements of the Christian faith.

Tell us why on a subject that is subtitled the Protestant

Reformation and Worship today, the two words spirit and truth are used in this theme.

In on the planning is not necessarily foreign to

me, but obviously it's a biblical phrase that for

sure it

goes back to

John four and

going to

matter as and

worshiping the Bible

to standing

for

responsible for inspiring the

authors

of

scripture

connotation is

a kind of

from the Bible.

That's interesting.

Could you give more detail on what you just said?

Well, to

recover the Bible for Christian

worship,

talk to

the woman at

the well,

the disciples that

it's going to look like a bad, I'm going to be ascended in effect, but I'm going to send

my spirit all truth.

This is by filling books of the

New Testament and read

that

word upon that ministry of the word.

Again, the spirit is going to be present in worship in way.

A lot of times of the Bible is being

central, but again, because.

Yeah, there are many people in the modern, uh, evangelical

realm who base so much of worship on

emotion that they will deem something as either

wonderful worship or horrible worship according to how they feel.

And you really have what they think is a worship guided by the spirit,

uh, where we who are, uh, theologically reformed.

And of course, I'm not saying that, that, uh, the reformed church is not immune to this,

this, uh, the symptom that I'm talking about, but, uh, it's, it's

predominantly modern evangelicals outside of the reformed faith that seemed to be most prominently involved in, in

worship that they think is being driven by the spirit, not spirit and truth, although they might not ever

admit that.

But if you remove truth from the equation, you're really not worshiping according.

To

the spirit.

You

can't

ordinarily God

doesn't.

Now, uh, a part of

this, uh, theme

of the.

Conference, spirit and truth, the Protestant reformation and worship today, uh,

the, the part of the theme that I'm wanting to address right now is worship today.

Why are you comparing and contrasting and tying in together the Protestant reformation and worship

today?

Because, um, Tim

Schafer, for

him

though,

one of the

things

about

that

Presbyterians anyway, but

I'm not

sure that it

had a

complete

only sang psalms, which

was the past

century when hymnody

reform

branch of

why they

did it and

the tradition, but we may be able to.

Yes.

And, uh, very often we who are reformed, uh, or if we include in

the mix, even fundamentalists and so on like to beat up on contemporary artists and music, but there

is a lot of music that can date back a hundred years or more, uh,

that is really, uh, unbiblical and appeals to sentimentalism and,

and things like that.

Uh, sometimes even bizarre lyrics.

You're wondering what is actually being meant by, by some of the things that are being sung.

And just because it's an old fashioned melody, people can think, well, this must be God uttering and it must be biblical.

Because it's old fashioned, but that's not

the case, is

it?

Right.

I,

I, I go back and forth.

If I want to figure out I'm singing in worship, um, then

Isaac Watts or

John Wesley, something wrong with

the biography of

what Watts or

Wesley, um, good

thing.

It's more fruitful meant to

be,

could have also tried to be from the new Testament.

I'm in

hymns

that Paul

wouldn't have.

I'm not

as.

Yeah, I think, uh, I'm not an exclusive Psalm singer either, but I

think that it is wise to include the Psalms in your worship.

I'm glad that the church where I am a member of Grace Baptist church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, we have Psalters in our, in

our pews.

And I'm glad that the, uh, great commission publications has this new, uh, Psalter

hymnal available, the Trinity Psalter hymnal.

Uh, it really connects us with the people of God of all ages, even the

old covenant all the way up through the present day.

When we sing the Psalms, we are connecting with the entirety.

Of the universal church,

aren't we?

It's problems to be sure.

And there is

the service of a more,

and it really is a glorious thing.

I mean, chanting the Psalms, his

psalmody is, these are paraphrased

with

chanting.

Would that

be something

that, uh,

requires acapella,

uh, singing?

Not necessarily.

I've,

I've

seen congregations

and chanting.

We're going

to our,.

Uh, second to last break.

Actually, we're going to have one right after our current guest D .G. Hart leaves.

He has to leave at 10 minutes early, and then we're going to be joined by Pastor Zachary of,

of the Resurrection Orthodox Presbyterian Church in State College, Pennsylvania

for the last 10 minutes.

But, but we're going to a brief break right now.

If you have any questions for D .G. Hart on spirit and truth in regard to worship, uh, give us

an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question.

Is personal and private.

We'll be right back.

Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS

Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of

God in the churches of our Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth

of Holy Scripture.

I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture,

and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths.

Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them

to all of God's people.

If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.

My name is Steve Lawson, Founder and President of One.

Passion Ministries, as well as Teaching Fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

I serve as Professor of Preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC.

They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www

.ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching,

in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

The best conferences in the country and it is.

It's a great conference i love it.

And chris arnson was there last year.

He's been there i think every year.

It's great to see him there.

You and i actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place which is a highlight.

Tons of stuff going on tons of great speakers.

And no matter where you are in the building you will hear chris arnson's laugh.

And that's worth the price of admission alone if you would like to join.

Phil me chris.

And a cavalcade of great preachers.

So it should be a cavalcade of great preachers.

And me.

G3 conference .com.

G3 conference .com.

Chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio.

Here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many years.

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Hi.

I'm pastor bill.

Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study.

Every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m eastern time on wlie radio

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Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit.

To the pastor's study.

Because everyone needs a pastor.

Welcome back.

We are now returning to our interview with dr dg hart who is one of the

speakers at the upcoming reformation conference on wednesday october 31st at the

resurrection orthodox presbyterian church and state college pennsylvania.

The theme is spirit and truth the protestant reformation and worship today.

If you'd like to join us with a question i would do so immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

We have an excellent question.

Uh from uh john and bangor main.

And john and bangor main says will dr hart please give us

three primary things that he would say if he was sitting in a pastor's study

with people on both sides of the music divide when it comes to worship those that are

staunchly defenders of what would be considered traditional worship and those that

are passionately wanting to introduce if not dominate the church with modern

contemporary music how would you biblically drive these two sides to

some kind of harmonious agreement.

Obviously this may never happen.

But what.

Would you use as argumentation to at least attempt to bring about this

agreement.

If if you only sang

psalm

psalmody you

everyone would be a good thing.

But i

i do think

um pretty basic some

some contemporary songs maybe phrases from

the

truth

of

scripture

songs do

i think a related concern

though

have music at

least

to give

don't know a song and there's no music to help you sing it but

still for one or two times through that song you're just going to be

this one

section

of

the

service

to song.

Which

is you in the

sermon.

That's all

right.

Um one

of

the

things

that.

Concerns me when i hear christians who advocate contemporary music.

Uh and obviously uh contemporary music can be just as biblical and wonderful as

centuries old music.

Uh like i was saying in my first hour i love the music of of the gettys and so on

which is contemporary uh.

But but sometimes you will hear the argumentation is if you want the lost to

come to your worship services and you want them to stay there you don't want them to be bored you've

got to have contemporary music.

And it really bothers me when people make that argument especially christians who make that argument because i don't

think that we in fact i know we are not supposed to be uh drawing

people in to the the worship of god with a lore that appeals

to the appetites and tastes and desires of those that are goats those that are

lost those that are still in darkness.

We're not to like entice people with something that pleases them before they're even regenerate into the church.

Uh.

And so even though there are some remaining fundamentalist and reform

churches that might not care at all about what christian young people

would like to sing uh and what kind of worship they would like to be involved in in

the modern church i think it far more dominates the the modern evangelical scene where

christians do not care at all about older people they could care less if some old

folks senior saints are offended by some of the more raucous and loud

contemporary music.

In fact i think they would be happier if they were all driven out anyway.

Uh and i don't think i'm exaggerating what are your thoughts on what i just.

Said well i'm studying more about

worship.

I've also.

I mean

contemporary worship has been 40 years so

it's not as if if you're trying to attract 20 somethings today you're going to use

music from this whole inn.

We've hidden deceivably temporary music.

I there was

an assumption i guess and i think was novel compared

to hymns.

Back in signal to visit your signaling

church

by using music from the 80s you're not exactly on the cutting

edge.

And i've been in

some the women in the 60s that are raising their hands.

It's not the young people.

We've we've got it.

We've got a generational divide now even with music scene.

Yeah you're right.

I guess i would just say you know find that

this singable for the whole congregation from young to old.

Or the point

of your you

know i

think

you want to more

relevant

somehow

can be

evangelistic.

It is

evangelistic.

Worship is also believed.

If you want to actually please someone in worship you should.

Think somehow about how do you please god in this.

Amen.

And we are out of time for your portion.

I know that you had to leave early right.

So i hope and pray that you have a wonderful time that edifies all and blesses all at the

reformation conference.

Uh coming up in state college.

Pennsylvania.

Great.

Well good to talk to you and i apologize for having to leave early but i appreciate your letting me do that so my pleasure brother all right.

Take care.

And uh by the way.

We're going to be joined by pastor zachary coming up in just a matter of a couple of minutes uh pastor of

the resurrection orthodox presbyterian church of state college pennsylvania.

He's going to conclude the last 10 minutes of the the program approximately and we're just going to go to another brief

station break so don't go away we'll be right back after these messages from our.

Sponsors.

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Paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying

to please man.

If i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ.

Hi.

I'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church.

We are reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689.

We are in nofolk massachusetts.

We strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do

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But since that wasn't the apostle's priority it must not be ours either.

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Welcome back.

We are now being joined by pastor zachary simmons of resurrection orthodox

presbyterian church in state college pennsylvania.

And he's going to wrap up the program to give you more information and more reasons why you should attend the

upcoming conference on reformation day october 31st at resurrection opc in state college and

it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron trip and zion radio.

Pastor zachary simmons.

Hi chris.

Well uh we've only got a few minutes.

Uh why don't you let our listeners know why this is such an important issue.

Why this is something that they should perhaps even cancel previously scheduled

plans to come to the resurrection opc to attend this conference on spirit

and truth the protestant.

Reformation and

worship.

Today salvation comes christ alone to the

glory of god alone.

And we've come to know this through a reformation of

the church's worship as well.

Greeted by god at beginning of our service uh he takes the initiative we worship by faith

alone simple way the

way he instructs.

And we worship according to the

glory of god alone not not for our own glory.

And and those are key reformational principles that really ought to be shaping the church's worship.

And those are the sort of sorts of things we feel burdened about.

It will be an opportunity make those biblical ideas

known um in our community and to others in in central pennsylvania.

Um we're really excited to be able to have uh dg heart that

have been a big influence on me

personally and my understanding of principle is a protection on christian

liberty not a violation of it.

So we're delighted to have him with us.

Publication of the trinity's altar hymnal uh by the opc and urcna is a major

uh milestone in reformed worship uh

timothy

schaefer principles behind it that went into its creation to

be a great opportunity for anyone who comes.

So we warmly invite everybody and hope that it'll be a great opportunity for us to honor the lord

together and learn and grow together in in our now let me ask you a

question although you may have many in the modern.

Evangelical church who put far too much emphasis on

aesthetics and the quality the sound quality of music

because in reality they are really intending to entertain people as much as they

intend to worship uh god but the aesthetic part the

beauty aspect and the skill and the talent.

With which we worship that is not altogether unimportant is it.

It's very important uh worship.

Biblical worship ought to be to be simple it ought to be word -centered uh but it also ought to be excellent

the idea of to fit the content that

the lord has given to

us and he's given to us a beautiful

message a weighty and glorious message.

And and we should strive as we're able and as we have opportunity to

complement those great truths.

Amen.

And that does not mean that.

People who have horrible singing voices should not sing worship to our lord.

It's kind of interesting.

How when when you have especially with a larger uh group in a congregation when when we

are all singing together people like me who don't really have the greatest voices in the world it seems to.

All blend together uh in a beautiful way doesn't it.

It does.

We encourage one another in those psalms and hymns and spiritual songs as

lord together and

with a variety of skills and allowing those more skilled among us uh the rest of the

body with their gifts.

Amen.

And you know uh just speaking.

About this uh this as far as the skill and quality of the music is concerned

uh i don't understand why some of our churches uh who do not have a

talented and gifted and skilled pianist uh they have to

throw anybody in there that has any kind of uh ability more perhaps

more ability in their minds than they actually possess to play the piano or other instrument during a worship service.

Even if it's horrible.

It's so distracting now you think that even for those who don't believe in exclusive

acapella worship that sometimes acapella is better than having somebody who is not gifted playing a piano or

another instrument if they are not at all skilled at that that instrument.

Sure there's definitely a place for acapella singing and that can be

a very uh music that we

are when there are not musicians available with the with the skill to be able to serve uh god's people

on the other hand

you know when when there's somewhere

they get that that they bring to the congregation particularly a congregation that

um may not be as gifted uh musically to be able to

sing acapella so there's a balance and also to be patient with one another.

And to grow in love.

Right right.

I didn't really mean that we should only allow somebody to play an instrument if they are on a professional level of skill.

But what i meant is that somebody who clearly has no talent that maybe have have been given some lessons as

a child and they have some rudimentary uh remembrance of how to play the instrument.

And they're distracting everybody from worship because it's really just abysmally bad.

That's what i was really talking about.

But no doubt.

No doubt.

But uh we are out of time now.

But i want to make sure again that our listeners have the website for the resurrection orthodox presbyterian church

in state college pennsylvania.

It's resurrectionopc .org.

Resurrectionopc .org.

Thank you so much pastor zachary simmons for joining us.

Late notice for the last 10 minutes or so of the program.

I hope that you have a lot of people visit the church on.

Uh on reformation day october 31st.

That's wednesday october 31st at the resurrection orthodox presbyterian church in state college.

I want to thank everybody who listened and i want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater

savior than you are a sinner.