April 6, 2021 Show with Phil Johnson on “Are Naive Christians Unconsciously Helping Pave the Way to Greater Waves of Persecution of the Church?”

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Persecution, Church Closures, and the Meaning of Christian Fellowship

Are naive Christians unconsciously helping to pave the way to greater waves of persecution of the Church? Well, we're going to discuss that question today with Phil Johnson, one of my favorite guests of all time here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

In fact, I still don't think anybody has beat him as far as being the most interviewed guest of all time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Phil is the Executive Director of the Media Ministry for Dr. John MacArthur.

Grace to you. And we are going to be addressing that theme that I just mentioned, and it's an honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Phil Johnson.

Thank you, Chris. Good to be here.

And why don't you very quickly give us an update on how Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, where you are a member, the church pastored by John MacArthur, and where you also basically pastor a church within a church there.

Tell us how you folks are faring with all the persecution you've been receiving locally in California due to your refusal to shut down during the coronavirus pandemic hysteria mandates.

Yeah, actually, things are going very well. We just had, of course, Easter celebration, one of the biggest. We don't know where every Friday night. It had to be one of the biggest. We haven't done anything since it started.

Well, there's Romans 828 going into action right there.

Yeah.

And in fact, I know a number of churches that refuse to shut down who have grown substantially in size because many people were tired of having the churches where they were members being so obedient to the secular authorities and keeping their doors shut, and even going beyond what the secular authorities asked, and certainly what they had the authority to do, just out of some kind of expression of love in their minds to the community, when I think it's the exact opposite.

The church is supposed to be expressing their love by ministering to the community with the gospel, with a call to repentance and discipleship and counseling and all things like that that go on, in addition to meeting the physical needs of folks in the surrounding areas of a church.

So, isn't it ironic that people...

Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, the history of the church is dotted with incidents, and the church has been there through one of the famous outbreaks of the start of Spurrow. He just continued to minister to people saying, you know, it's dangerous to come into contact with people who are infected.

He went and prayed with the sick and dying, and has always responded until now. Higher existence is not really to proclaim the gospel, because they don't do that, or they don't do it clearly. That is the biggest problem.

They'll use entertainment or any means they can. They have less to do. He said, all the churches I know of about the gospel shut down. The few remaining believers in those congregations...

Further threats or anything like that coming from governing authorities and the police department and so on?

You know, I think still, yes, we're giving the opinion on the matters, but I know that there are hearings. The county hasn't backed off. The state government here in California is things like that, while the rest of us not to go indoors without...

Praise God. And if anybody wants more information about Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, and also the ministry for which our guest, Phil Johnson, serves as executive director, grace to you.

You could go to gty .org, gty .org. In fact, I'm going to take this time to quickly plug an excellent book, a very important book for our time, Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church, A Sacred Trust Broken.

My personal physician is one of the authors, Dr. Joel Yeager of Heritage Family Health in Newmanstown, Pennsylvania. He co-authored that along with Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke, another physician, and Ernie Springer, who is the publisher.

And in fact, I've got to get a hold off the air, of course, of your mailing address, Phil, because the publisher would love for you to have a copy.

Of this in your hands. Yeah, thank you. I'll text my address to you. Oh, that sounds great.

Well, we have a pretty heavy theme today, and I want you to answer the question. Are naive Christians unconsciously helping to pave the way to greater waves of persecution of the church?

Yeah, I think there's no question that that is happening. You can see it in pretty much any venue where people exchange ideas and talk. Professing believers, evangelicals, some of the harshest critics of those of us who continue to meet, continue to talk about in the midst of a situation that really ought to shut us down.

You know, it's ironic, isn't it? Scripture says one of the chief things is to deliver those. So here we are in a situation where the media and our government and pretty much every major institution seems to be doing everything they can to prolong the crisis and maximize the fear.

And it's disturbing to me that so many Christians are playing along with that narrative and fomenting that scenario. They want to be more fearful than we are. I think that's persecution. Persecution, not only in the end, it turns out that in the.

Evangelical community. Yeah, it is quite a disturbing scenario that we are facing where people very quickly, immediately believe in things they are taught and mandated by the secular media and by secular politicians and scientists, even those that are known to, for lack of a better term, hate Christ and his gospel and his scriptures.

And even though that the Christians who are bowing down to these mandates so quickly and the urgent call for vaccinations and other things, they know that these people also believe that a nine-month-old baby in the womb is not worthy of the protection of its own life from being murdered by the mother and the mother's physician.

They know that these same politicians and many of the same scientists will allow a man to be identified as a woman just because he feels like one. I mean, we could go on and on with the insanity and Christians who believe in the inerrancy of scripture are just immediately jumping on the.

Bandwagon and siding with these individuals. Yeah, look at the case of Alberta, even though they decided to... It was definitely at least a couple of weeks or more. Even coming from, is going to open the door from the government, yelling at them, I don't necessarily am a.

Yes, and it is interesting that quite providentially the theme for the conference that you and I will be attending, where you will be one of over 20 speakers, the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, September 30th through October 2nd.

The theme is Christ is supreme over all, and really Christians are... I would have a hard time believing they'd be conscious of this, but they're really allowing governing authorities to have supremacy over Christ because they're allowing governing authorities in some places even to forbid Christians from doing things they're commanded to do.

Am I right?

Yeah, no, that is exactly right. It started with the fact that we are commanded to meet. I mean, that's the whole meaning of the word church. It's a called out assembly, an assembly. It's not an assembly of the saints, and we're not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, even under government order.

And, you know, we said this more than a year ago. Look, if there's a legitimate health crisis, people are dying and the streets are full of bodies, yes, we can suspend the worship of the church. You know, you don't come to church if you have a contagious disease.

The command to not forsake the assembling of yourselves together isn't so absolute that it means you should never... you're always in sin if you ever miss a Sunday. But once it's gone for more than a year now, in fact, I would say by the time it went for two months, and there weren't signs that people were dying in droves, the disease at a rate that was actually killing large numbers of people.

As soon as that was clear, it seems it comes a time when, and say, we have to obey God rather than men. You obey God rather than men. And there's an element of subjectivity in the question of how long, how long do you obey a quarantine, and when do you go back to work?

By any measure, the church has been suspended for more than a year, the church anyway, because you can't, as a believer, throw your sanctification the way you should and live a healthy... of all fellowship for months on end, like common sense for anyone who understands the whole point of the church assembling.

And yet, there is no end of people out there who self-identify as evangelicals, actually, and angrily believe, are somehow, they're the ones in sin.

What do you think is the root of that phenomenon, where you have... I mean, because I know folks that are just as conservative as you and I, who are just as committed to reformed soteriology as you and I, to biblical inerrancy as you and I, who even may have openly despised the presidential candidacy and election of Joe Biden as much as you and I, and yet, they are among these cheerleaders for all of the mandates that are being declared, whether they are legally declared or strongly recommended under the language, or using the language that it sounds like a mandate anyway.

What do you think the root of that is?

Yeah, I don't have a good answer for that question. I've wondered about it myself. There aren't many like that. I do think the lines generally break down between those who are totally committed to biblical inerrancy and the authority of Christ over the Church, typically are the ones who say, no, the Church needs to meet.

And it's people who are more pragmatic, who think the point of the Church is to gather a crowd and influence the world by persuasion or whatever. They tend to be the ones who think, no, no, no, we have to go along with for the sake of our testimony and loving our brethren.

That's generally how it breaks down. But as you say, there are some whose theological opinions I would normally agree with, interminable quarantines and our perfect live stream church services. I think it reflects the doctrine of the Church.

I'm willing to argue that anywhere. But you can see, for example, the inconsistency of thought in a group like Nine Marks, Mark Devers, who gathered to meet anyway. And yet, one of the core principles of centrality of the Church and the biblical attendance at church, that's still one of the doctrines they've stressed.

And yet, many months being critical of churches that were meeting, then ultimately they decided how long is too long and all that. And so I can appreciate that, I can live with a bit of disagreement, but here we are more than a year after the quarantine started, and those Christians who are still content to sit home in their pajamas and drink coffee and live stream on TV and think that that's as healthy as going to church, understand that attitude.

I don't think that's Christ, I think that's a worldly attitude, and I'm not ashamed to say that.

Live Streaming, Corporate Worship, and the Limits of Online Church

There have been some closer to or right on the same spot that you and I are on on this issue, who have even said that that is not worship. And gathering around a TV or computer screen, although is a beneficial aid at times, especially for those who are homebound, it is not a substitute in any way for worship, and it really isn't.

How do you respond to that level of critique over what's going on?

Well, I do agree with that. I think, you know, live streaming the church service, I'm not opposed to that, because I think it serves a very useful purpose of necessity, shut in. And my dad, who died last year, was confined to a care living place for months, and his only source of biblical teaching and sort of online thing, and plus people who came to visit him.

I appreciate that. You know, he sensed the need for fellowship. He said that. He could not get out, and I think the church owes people like that all kinds of ministry, both in person and to make it available online so they can watch it and participate at least on that level.

Dogmatically, that is not a valid substitute for church. It's not an option if you're able to attend to say, no, I just don't feel like getting up and getting dressed this week. I'll watch the live stream on.

At best, a temporary short-term substitute. It's better than skipping it all together, but not much. And after a year of nothing but online, watching a service online, priority of course, in the long term, it doesn't accomplish what you'll get if you cut yourself off from any kind of contact with your brothers and sisters.

Well, we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody wants to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire program is Phil Johnson, the president of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur. And we are discussing, Are Naive Christians Unconsciously Helping to Pave the Way to Greater Waves of Persecution of the Church?

Our email address, if you have questions of your own, is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us, as always, your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you disagree with your own pastors over some of the issues we're discussing today, and you obviously don't want to draw attention to your identity.

Perhaps you're even a pastor. You disagree with your fellow elders over what we're discussing, or you disagree with your denomination, or what have you. Well, we understand that those would be reasons, and there would be other reasons why you might want to remain anonymous.

But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Phil, we have a first-time questioner, Andrew in Brooklyn, New York. How does the modern church's compromise on critical race theory and intersectionality compare to the church's compromise on evolution and a literal.

Genesis? Yeah, you know, I think it comes from the same source. There's been a significant and natural aptitude when, in fact, confound the wise. The last thing the church needs to be doing is watching what the secular economy is thinking at the moment, and trying to adapt.

And yet, that has been there for trying to jump on another bandwagon. Now, by the way, thank you.

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Something that is interesting, an interesting phenomenon. Why do you think it is? I mean, some people might be listening, and they might be saying, what is critical race theory and intersectionality have to do with the main theme of shutting down of churches over Coronavirus hysteria mandates?

Well, it does seem to dovetail. I mean, not always. I mean, I know folks that are very opposed to critical race theory and intersectionality and all of those nonsensical, insane and dangerous and bigoted things that are under the umbrella of the woke movement and the social justice warrior movement, who are opposed to that and yet are right on the bandwagon with the mask mandates with the shutting down of churches with rushing as fast as you can to get a vaccine.

But there is, it seems an overlapping though, where there are many who have as much a part of their agenda, the pushing for these mandates as they are to promote the woke movement.

Social Justice, Pragmatism, and Contextualization

Yeah, that's the social justice agenda and the health mandates become evangelicals. That would be the most common group, as you say, reject the social justice agenda, and yet they're all in favor of them.

It doesn't often go the other way. You don't see many people who say, no, the church needs to meet, we need to go ahead. And I think, I mean, you don't see many people who say that and then say, church to meet, and we're in favor of social justice.

And I think the reason you don't see that very often is because people, evangelicals in this agenda and evangelicals similar motive, and it's what I was just talking about in response to that question.

It's a desire to gain some kind of stability or where these ideas are popular happens to dominate the secular mind at the moment, is easily adopted by people who think that, you know, the church can't have influence with the world if we disagree with them, so let's agree with them as much as we can.

And the picture that the church is called to confront culture, not adapt to it. But if you think, no, what we have to do is contextualize everything and adapt to the culture as much as we can, then you're going to be just as government intrusion into price of respectability and.

Worldly-minded people. What do you foresee being, I mean, I know that you're not a prophet. I know that you're a very strict cessationist. I know that you're not into extra biblical divine revelation occurring in the 21st century, so I know that you don't know anything with infallibility, but do you have any idea or any biblically trained thoughts on what you see as a possibility for, or not only biblically trained thoughts, but even from what you know from history and from what you see going on in the world around us now, what you expect might be greater waves of persecution specifically for the church, especially here in the United States and.

North America in general? Yeah, you're right, I'm a cessationist. But I don't claim any special in the health quarantine would cause. I did not foresee that coming. If I had to guess, church is going to recognize required, and I think there's going to be an effort for, in fact, some of the politicians' discrimination on the basis of sexual discrimination should be required by law even in Turkey quickly, and it already exists in some countries right now.

Yeah, I rarely.

Agree, well, maybe that's a stretch or an exaggeration. I very often disagree, not all the time, but I very often disagree with Pastor Jeffers in Texas, one of the pastors that was most frequently featured on Fox News and other conservative outlets during the presidential race and even subsequent to that.

I mean, I believe he's my brother in Christ, and I just don't agree with all of his rhetoric or his discernment, especially when he was linking arms with some of the lunatic fringe Word of Faith movement leaders just because they were supportive of President Trump.

But he said something recently that I agreed with when he was being asked about the recent polls that church attendance, in fact, all attendance in houses of worship across the board has dropped dramatically.

In fact, for the first time in the history of the United States, apparently, church attendance has only been something that is being participated by less than half of the population in America. In other words, prior to recently, and since they started taking these polls, more than half, the majority of Americans were churchgoers and also attendees regularly at their houses of worship of choice.

But Pastor Jeffers, I think rightly said that, well, that's just nominal Christianity, who are basically starting to live and act according to their true worldview and belief system. They're just not going to church anymore because they never really believed to begin with, likely.

And I see a lot of validity in that. What do you have.

To say? Yeah, he's absolutely right about that. And it is one of the more than becomes higher price you have, you're going to see. We have to go to our midway break right now, folks. So if you.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Phil Johnson after these messages. As host of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations. A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Dear ones, my name is Justin Peters and my friend Chris Arnzen,.

Host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the United States. We'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme, Christ is Supreme Over All.

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