August 29, 2022 Show with Garrett Walden on “The John Gill Project”

The Program Opens With Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and a John Gill Theme

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good Afternoon. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity. Living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com this is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Monday on this 29th day of August 2022. Many of you may have either read in social media or heard me Make an announcement on this program that a very dear friend of mine going back to the 1980s Reverend Peter El Padre Went home to be with Christ for eternity several months ago and I was very blessed Very recently to hear from his widow that she was giving to me a portion of a small portion of her late husband's my dear friends vast library and You should have seen the expression on my face like a little kid on Christmas morning When I opened up that box and I discovered the complete Commentary set on the Bible by dr. John Gill and very providentially at the nearly the very same time I Discovered something that is called the John Gill project.

Garrett Walden and the Mission of Grace Heritage Church

And that is going to be our discussion for the day Our guest today to discuss. This is Garrett Walden who is pastor at Grace Heritage Church in Auburn, Alabama. And he is a PhD student studying Baptist history and theology under my longtime friend.

Dr Michael Hagen at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and Garrett is also senior editor for the London Lyceum and An editor for the John Gill project and today as I mentioned we are going to be discussing the John Gill project.

And it's my honor and privilege To welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trump and Zion radio Garrett Walden with you Chris. Thanks for having me the pleasure is mine brother and first of all, let our listeners know something about a Grace Heritage Church in Auburn, Alabama.

Alabama and if you're familiar with the about two miles from confession and so Ecclesially in the same and so many for me my interest in in Gill and in Baptist history and theology Finds a lot of direct application and in my church context so wonderful deacons that serve our church.

So faithfully and so. It's been a wonderful place for my family to plant some roots.

Amen. Well if anybody either lives in or near Auburn, Alabama. Or you have friends family and loved ones who live there or you're visiting there for one reason or another traveling through there. The website to find out more information about this fine church is grace heritage org.

Grace heritage org. Before we get into the main theme today the John Gill project. We have a custom here a tradition which many people in my listening audience appear to love. Where whenever we have a first-time guest on the show?

That guest gives a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the kind of religious atmosphere if any they were raised in and What kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself?

And eventually led to their salvation. So I'd love to hear your story family.

Garrett Walden's Salvation Testimony

And so my mom and dad simply all through our childhood. We were there every time the doors were open and for that I'm so great is indebted to my parents attended a Pentecost in Sunday evening and Wednesday nights and Be part of you know, this is different from the way I was raised.

But nevertheless, I heard the gospel from a young age and I was Genuinely converted to articulate that immersion and so much of my experience is in a Christian home. I'm just so great putting me in my family and that my mom and dad had in raising.

Really when I got to high school I began to and he and I would have about theology and doctrine questions and make suggestions I suppose but we would get into these theological debates at the lunchroom table up and talk some more and we would always have our Bibles with us and we're examining the scriptures to consider a lot of issues, especially for You know teenage guy that friendship that stimulated a lot of my own spiritual inquiry and To that point.

I don't think I really speaking with that friend and really encountering some theological challenges to my faith and theology I began to read books and I became just a very started me down this doctrine and faith and to engage in evangelism and to Exercise the teaching and so he and I would lead some Bible studies together.

And we would go share the gospel with people restaurant and just speak to people who were sitting down and eating and so we Really kind of how I came into the faith and began to grow and then when I went off to college that I think is when the Lord started really helping me to find some solid answers to some of the Theological and doctrinal questions that my friend had been challenging with and so when I came to Auburn University I had grown up in the Pentecostal Church and loved it wonderful people there that loved me and my family however, there were a lot of questions that I still had that I wasn't finding answers to and within that tradition and so When I came to college, I made a different traditions I had really stream and the Roman Catholic Church the Baptist Church the Methodist Church the Presbyterian Church the Lutheran Church.

I had no idea what was really Sunday as a freshman in college I visited Lakeview Baptist Church in Auburn and I heard teaching Expositional missions and they genuinely loved each other and I could see it from week in the next week in the next week.

And I later to Lakeview Baptist and it was began to deepen and the Lord Led me to took a study and I was discipled and mentored by some godly men of the church I'm Names like black and Al Jackson may not mean much to the men that shaped me in some really significant ways and in college and Lord Began to put me overseas.

But just in God's kindness that led me to seminary Kentucky and made it in coming to the church here. Ask me any questions about that that may be.

Well, I think that we've heard Quite a good amount of your testimony and since we are going to be discussing another issue Perhaps another time will be to delve into any more detail that may come up in a future interview, but First of all before we actually get into the John Gill project.

Obviously the logical thing to do would be to let our listeners know about who John Gill was and when you first became acquainted with his writings and when you began to develop a deep appreciation for his writings his legacy his teachings and I am just thrilled that this John Gill project is now in formulation because I think that he is tragically a Great figure from history That far too few people have either even heard of or That they have an exaggerated negative Kind of Expression that has been made about him by even knowledgeable historians and theologians who I think far too often and and far too and in far too an exaggerated way Discount him as being a hyper Calvinist and so on but tell us about John Gill how you discovered him and how.

What are the circumstances behind your?

John Gill's Life, Writings, and Baptist Legacy

Developing this appreciation for him certainly certainly so John Gill is. One of them like you mentioned often doesn't get the respect and attention that he deserves. He was born in 1697 and he dies in 1771 so writing and confession the American Revolution.

Happening in in England during that time. He's born in in Kettering and He eventually becomes a pastor in London. So he's most often associated seen in and around London. And so he's one of the towering intellectual figures in Baptist history his nickname Paul.

A few things maybe just to kind of and he's the first thematic theology in his cold divinity. He's also the first Baptist person to write a commentary on the entire Bible. So he wrote this Old and New Testament.

He wrote this on top of that he had others of it and so about the doctrine of free destination he wrote a lengthy defense of the doctrines of grace. He wrote a massive and just wonderful Defense of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Oh, he was just so wonderful so many things that That Baptist value today. They can find in those ways. There are certainly some some areas in which we would disagree with John Gill. We'll talk about those a little later on but for the most part.

He's just one of those wonderful Baptist forefathers that Is certainly worth? Investigating and exploring and so Maybe just another thing to our hearers his he pastored the The Goat Yard Chapel in Horsley down and kind of the southern part of London.

Later named Carter Lane Baptist Church. And so he was a pastor there for 51 years. So he was there from 1720 to 1771 imagine 51 years as pastor of one congregation. But this wasn't just an ordinary congregation.

This was the church that was pastored by Benjamin Keech. And so if you're familiar with Baptist history, Benjamin Keech was one of the one of the great early Baptists in the 17th century.

Yeah, in fact that many reformed Baptists still use his catechism today and In fact, I heard That the 19th century Prince of Preachers Charles Haddon Spurgeon Had Entombed in the I believe the cornerstone of Metropolitan Tabernacle among other things the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith and Keech's catechism.

I heard that about Benjamin Keech it didn't take over first and then. After Gill is another really influential Baptist minister John Rippon. John Rippon is there for 63 years. And it's from Carter Lane to New Park Street a couple of other pastors New Park Street called New Park Street.

Eventually, they moved to the Metropolitan Tabernacle. So Spurge is there for 38 years until his death in 1892. And so this same church the same. Well, of course the congregation ages and and people are brought in and people are removed for various reasons.

But this the same church had Benjamin Keech John Gill John Rippon Charles Spurgeon all in the same in the same 200 years what it was just an amazing testimony. It's just God's provision for this church.

Why John Gill Is So Little Known Today

Now.

What is it about? John Gill in your opinion that he is Hardly known except for those in the holes of academia today. You you could hardly find any Christian That has not heard of Charles Adams Spurgeon Crossing denominational lines.

I mean you could even speak to a Seventh-day Adventist and they May likely have heard of him and may likely even have a very high opinion of him. And I have met unfortunately a handful of people over the years who had no clue Who Spurgeon was even though they claimed to be Christian in fact that included.

Back in the 90s, I remember while working for WMCA radio Which is an affiliate of one of the in fact the largest Christian radio network in the world Salem Communications. While working there at the time of this station was located in Hasbro Kites, New Jersey we had a visit from the very first general manager of The very first Christian radio station in London England.

Because believe it or not prior to the 1990s It was illegal to have religious radio in the UK and this was a new Thing that began and the general manager of this very first station in London came to visit us.

So he could learn more about how to operate a Christian radio station and during our meeting with him and the conference room I said to him I I've always wanted to visit London and Especially to visit the Metropolitan Tabernacle.

And he said pardon. I said the Metropolitan Tabernacle Sorry not following you. You know on Elephant and Castle in London the church where Charles Haddon Spurgeon the Prince of Preachers was the pastor in the 19th century writer of Numerous books Quoted heavily by churches of all denominations to this day.

Sorry never heard of him. This is the general manager of a Christian radio station in London. But but although that in my experience was rare or is rare To come across such a person who never heard of Spurgeon it's it is just as uncommon to hear from people who know and appreciate Who John Gill was.

Do you have any explanation as to why?

Well, I think there are there are publications with a turning Interprets it as a picture of God and his people and well, that was a wild publication for Gil. So during his own day as he of course he produces the commentary on the whole Bible that is widely accepted and used and then his body of doctrinal and practical divinity comes out and it's widely used.

And so during his day and and maybe the 19th century if you're a Baptist pastor in England and in some the the average pastor might have 30 to 50 books on his shelf and that's it. And among those 30 to 50 books that a pastor might have during most of the 18th and 19th century three volumes of his doctrinal and practical divinity and.

So, you know if you if you're a pastor You got 50 books and a dozen of them are from John Gill. Huge influence when you think about it all over all over the UK. And appreciated by Baptists. And really and once you get to the rise of higher criticism in the mid to late 19th century He begins to be I guess less huge shifts in a huge way.

And so he kind of falls out of favor in some ways. I would say nowadays people who are familiar with Gil they probably hear about Gil when they're studying the doctrines related to Calvinism and Often Gil is portrayed as one of the bad guys and so that I think puts a bad taste in people's mouths.

Concerning John Gill. So if you're studying the doctrines of grace often your distinction between evangelical Calvinism most most academic people would prefer the term high Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism has kind of a negative connotation.

But a very negative.

Hyper-Calvinism is no one ever for themselves. You mean if I can help it, but high Calvinism. So a lot of times high associated with John Gill.

For some reasons that we can discuss. Yeah, even Spurgeon referred to him using that trick, correct?

High Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism, and the Duty of Faith

So there are some interesting features of what that conversation really entails. So high Calvinism is the kind of a variety of Calvinism that Accents a few particular points that leads to what we would say is a major Deviation from teaching so non elect people have a duty to a denial of the author of the gospel so the language of author gospel becomes hugely controversial During Gil's time and in the generations after so most famously Andrew Fuller 1785 worthy of he's trying to push back on this high Calvinism and richly theological and Orthodox evangelical Calvinism so often Gil is pitted against Fuller and certainly Fuller is engaging with Gil so it's not totally unmerited but often Gil is viewed as the bad guy and Fuller's the good guy and Gil is a bit more complicated than that.

And so there arise terms and labels like the Gillites versus the Fullerites. That sort of thing and so often, you know to be associated with Gil is to be Embracing of high Calvinism, which is basically said to oppose international missions to oppose evangelism.

It can it can express itself in those ways. Sometimes high Calvinist if you know God's elect are going to be brought in no matter what there's no real place for the means proclamation that would lead people to a kind of Doctrinal or practical antinomianism where they would deny the use of the moral law as as meaningful in any way for a Christian, so Gil was not an antinomian by any means so that that whole discussion is sometimes called the modern question, which is Related to do non elect people Have a responsibility Christ.

It wasn't that one of the primary.

Disputes that Century after Gil Charles Haddon Spurgeon had with the strict Baptists on the one hand. He was battling Those involved in the downgrade controversy and on the other side of the spectrum.

He was battling with those Who were claiming to be Calvinist but were strict that in the denomination known as the strict Calvinists who were denying that very thing of the Duty faith that Spurgeon defended.

Am I right on that?

Associated with and Some Baptist churches were accepting to the Lord's table, which is who would accept them and others who would accept non credo baptized Christians into membership, so really their station concerning or maybe you could think of it as restrictive and mixed Baptists during the 18th century and the 19th century as well and so all those things was to see kind of where the a lot of times these essays that were published by the hundreds and just hand it out and.

In fact if you could pick up right where you left off there because we have to go to our first break and When we return we'll have you pick up on the the pamphlets that were used to make Debates public over theological issues.

And if anybody would like to ask a question of our guest today send an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a are n z n at gmail .com. As always give us your first name at least. Your city and state and your country of residence.

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Augustus Toplady, Friendship Across Denominational Lines, and Baptist Distinctives

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned in today. My guest today has been and will continue to be for the entire two-hour program Garrett Walden Who is discussing the John Gill project. If you have questions of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence. Before the break you were just About to get into the fact that during the 18th century and perhaps even the 19th century as well it's very common for Pamphlets or booklets or tracts or something to that extent to be distributed among the population that Involved heated theological debates of the day.

And if you could pick up where you left off.

So this is kind of in the context of publication. So people had his commentaries people had his body of divinity pamphlets and tracts and Small booklets could be easily printed and circulated and that was a purges on my computer here at kind of a table of content and so They they would be something like, you know an answer to the Birmingham one and two.

And so he was he was responding to something that he read and it's it looks like it's uh, it's to roughly 30 page Responses so think like a pretty substantive book chapter or something like that. Here's one called truth defended an answer to a pamphlet on the super lapsarian scheme.

And so he is responding to something that he read there. Here's one the moral nature and fitness of things. There's another called the necessity of good works unto salvation considered and then he's got possibly 10 at least tracks and pamphlets on The the on the issue of baptism examining the historical and theological claims of infant baptism and of course He's he's seeking to refute those historical and theological claims and seeking to establish a historical and theological affirmation of Believers baptism by immersion and so that that would have been a really common practice In his time to have those pamphlets circulating and so it wasn't just that Gil was Academic people it would have been a little bit more popular level than that and You know nowadays maybe a modern Comparison would be something like a blog.

Sometimes blogs can become so casual and people can say all sorts of things that are sometimes not the most Gracious in blogs and that sort of thing. But that is often a way of back and forth and of course social media as a whole another complexity to it.

But over the course of time the rise of higher criticism in Europe and kind of a shifting social context of dialogue Gil kind of fades from from people's Interests and accessibility and so a big part of people being unfamiliar with Gil now has to do with accessibility.

So there's not a lot of great publications of Gil's writings ago. There was the Baptist standard-bearer body of doctrinal and practical divinity and also his testament commentary.

Yeah, and they were actually operated by the strict Baptist today, aren't they? I believe so.

I think they maybe they're God in truth and writing and the the formatting. It's not the the easiest to read. I've got a copy of that edition of the body of doctrinal and practical divinity and it's it's really.

Quite tedious to read.

Yeah, I looked at the commentaries that my Beloved friend Pete Padre or should I say his late wife? Gave to me and I opened up the commentaries and sure enough exactly what you're describing. I'm gonna need Both reading glasses and a magnifying glass.

I think.

Way to navigate to a particular chapter and verse of a book is not always very Easy to find. And so, you know a big part of the the challenge of deepening our love of Baptist theology and learning Baptist history is to take some of these resources that were so influential in their day and bring them into the 21st century while preserving them, but also just Representing them in a way that is more agreeable to modern expectations of Typesetting and formatting and and printing and and binding and those sorts of things.

And so that's a big impetus for the John Gill project is to bring these works of Gil into them into the modern day.

And I can immediately think of one reason Why Gil may not be as? Prevalent a name that is lauded Today. Usually for the most part not always but usually reformed Baptists and our conservative Bible believing Presbyterian brothers enjoy a lot of warm camaraderie and Fellowship and pulpit exchange and so on.

And from what I have read Gil was far more caustic in his References to infant baptism than Charles Spurgeon was. I'm not saying that pastor Spurgeon did not get Heated in his criticisms of those he with whom he disagreed at all.

In fact, he had some very harsh comments for those who have an Arminian concept of salvation and equated their understanding of the Accomplishment of Christ on Calvary's cross as Monstrous and and fitting of a god of the pagans and thugs because they because he said that the Arminians believe in a God who punishes People for their sins in hell after he allegedly already paid for them on the cross.

But but Gil was as far as infant baptism was concerned called it a remnant of potpourri and in fact, I think he had a In fact, I know he had a booklet specifically on that issue that used some harsh rhetoric.

Yes, yes. Related to fit into that so or maybe don't maybe doesn't fit into that I think he probably does. So there's when we think of the word Catholic there's Catholic with a uppercase C. So you would think of Roman Catholicism and.

Do I have to? I'm a former Roman Catholic. So.

Any any Baptist or Protestant for that matter would would have a negative conception of that use of the word Catholic. But if you think back to them to the 19 creed There's a use of the word Catholic with a lowercase C so that that notion of Catholic with a small C is this idea of this universal Church of All of the people of God from all time and across all space.

Yeah, even the Presbyterians sometimes those that are more liturgical and even some Reformed Baptists will recite the Apostles Creed which has the reference to the Catholic Church. Small C.

Certainly. I think I'm having in mind that the Apostles Creed as well. So, um, so yeah, so there's a movement now trying to situate Baptists in that small C Catholic Dialogue, how is it and relate to other denominations and other church traditions and the broader Christian tradition and.

So doing some wonderful work there, you know, John Gill is kind of an interesting piece of that. You know, he had some dear friends who were not he was. He was he was a friend of Augustus top. Yeah Rock of Ages him writer Rock of Ages Clef for me, right?

So Augustus Toplady was a major figure during the kind of the middle Middle decades of the 18th century. I think he died in 1778.

Gill, Catholicity, and the John Gill Project

In fact, do you pick up when we return from our midway break on Augustus Toplady? We have to go to our midway break now and please be patient with us folks because as always the midway break is a little Longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires of them to localize Geographically all of their programming including iron sharpens iron radio to Lake City, Florida.

And they do so with their own public service announcements and other things while we air our globally heard commercials. So, please be patient with us. And if you have a question send it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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