August 29, 2022 Show with Garrett Walden on “The John Gill Project”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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It's iron sharpens iron.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

Arnzen.

Good Afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity.

Living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com this

is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Monday on this 29th day of August

2022.

Many of you may have either read in social media or heard me Make an

announcement on this program that a very dear friend of mine going back to the

1980s Reverend Peter El Padre Went home to be with

Christ for eternity several months ago and I was very

blessed Very recently to hear from his widow that

she was giving to me a portion of a small portion of her

late husband's my dear friends vast library and You should have

seen the expression on my face like a little kid on Christmas morning When I

opened up that box and I discovered the complete Commentary

set on the Bible by dr. John Gill and very providentially

at the nearly the very same time I Discovered something that

is called the John Gill project.

And that is going to be our discussion for the day Our guest today to discuss.

This is Garrett Walden who is pastor at Grace Heritage Church in Auburn,

Alabama.

And he is a PhD student studying Baptist history and theology under my longtime friend.

Dr Michael Hagen at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and Garrett

is also senior editor for the London Lyceum and An editor for the John

Gill project and today as I mentioned we are going to be discussing the John Gill project.

And it's my honor and privilege To welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trump and Zion radio

Garrett Walden with you Chris.

Thanks for having me the pleasure is mine brother and first of all, let our listeners know something

about a Grace Heritage Church in Auburn, Alabama.

Alabama and if you're familiar

with

the about two miles

from

confession

and so

Ecclesially in the same and so

many for me my interest in in Gill and in Baptist history and theology Finds a lot of direct

application and in my church

context so wonderful deacons that serve our church.

So faithfully and so.

It's been a wonderful place for my family to plant some roots.

Amen.

Well if anybody either lives in or near Auburn, Alabama.

Or you have friends family and loved ones who live there or you're visiting there for one reason or another

traveling through there.

The website to find out more information about this fine church is grace heritage

org.

Grace heritage org.

Before we get into the main theme today the John Gill project.

We have a custom here a tradition which many people in my listening audience appear to love.

Where whenever we have a first -time guest on the show?

That guest gives a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the kind of

religious atmosphere if any they were raised in and What kind of providential

circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself?

And eventually led to their salvation.

So I'd love to hear your story family.

And so my mom and dad simply all

through our childhood.

We were there every time the doors were open and for that I'm so great is

indebted to my parents

attended a Pentecost

in Sunday evening and Wednesday nights and

Be part of you

know, this is different from the way I was raised.

But nevertheless, I heard the gospel from a young age and I was Genuinely

converted

to articulate

that immersion and

so much of my experience

is in a Christian

home.

I'm just so great putting me in my family and

that my mom and dad had in raising.

Really when I got to high school I began to

and he and I would have

about theology and doctrine

questions and make suggestions I suppose but

we would get into these theological debates at the lunchroom table

up and talk some more and we would always have our Bibles with us and

we're examining the scriptures to consider a

lot of issues, especially for

You know teenage guy that friendship that stimulated a

lot of my own spiritual inquiry and To that point.

I don't think I really

speaking with that friend and really encountering some theological challenges to my faith and

theology I

began to read books and I became just a

very

started

me down

this

doctrine

and faith

and

to engage in evangelism and to Exercise

the teaching and so he and I would lead some Bible studies together.

And we would go share the gospel with people

restaurant and just speak to people who were sitting down and eating and so

we Really kind

of how I came into the faith and began to grow and then when I went off to college that I think is

when the Lord started really helping me to find some solid answers to some of the

Theological and doctrinal questions that my friend had been challenging with and so when I came to

Auburn University I had grown up in the Pentecostal Church and loved it

wonderful people there that loved me and my family however, there were a lot of questions that I still had that I wasn't

finding answers to and within that tradition and so When I came to college, I

made a different traditions I

had really stream and the

Roman Catholic Church the Baptist Church the Methodist Church the Presbyterian Church

the Lutheran Church.

I had no idea what was really Sunday as a freshman in

college I visited Lakeview Baptist Church in Auburn

and I heard teaching Expositional

missions and

they genuinely loved each other

and I could see it from week in

the next week in the next week.

And I later to Lakeview

Baptist and it was began to deepen and the Lord

Led me to took a study and I was discipled and mentored by some

godly men of the church I'm Names like

black and Al Jackson may not mean much to the men that shaped me

in some really significant ways and in college and

Lord Began to put me

overseas.

But just in God's kindness that led me to seminary Kentucky and

made it in coming to the church here.

Ask me any

questions about that that may be.

Well, I think that we've heard Quite a good amount of your testimony

and since we are going to be discussing another issue Perhaps another time will be to delve

into any more detail that may come up in a future interview, but

First of all before we actually get into the John Gill project.

Obviously the logical thing to do would be to let our listeners know about

who John Gill was and when you first became acquainted with his

writings and when you began to develop a

deep appreciation for his writings his legacy his teachings and I am just

thrilled that this John Gill project is now in

formulation because I think that he is tragically a

Great figure from history That far too few

people have either even heard of or That

they have an exaggerated negative Kind of

Expression that has been made about him by even knowledgeable

historians and theologians who I think far too often and

and far too and in far too an exaggerated way

Discount him as being a hyper Calvinist and so on but tell us about John

Gill how you discovered him and how.

What are the circumstances behind your?

Developing this appreciation for him certainly certainly so John Gill is.

One of them like you mentioned often doesn't get the respect and

attention that he deserves.

He was born in 1697 and he dies in 1771 so

writing

and

confession the American Revolution.

Happening in in England during that time.

He's born in in Kettering and He eventually becomes a pastor in London.

So he's most often associated seen in and around

London.

And so he's one of the towering intellectual figures in Baptist

history his nickname Paul.

A few things maybe just to kind

of and he's the first

thematic

theology in his cold divinity.

He's also the first Baptist person to write a commentary on the entire Bible.

So he wrote this Old and New Testament.

He wrote

this on top

of that he had

others of it and so about the doctrine of free destination

he wrote a lengthy defense of the doctrines of grace.

He wrote a massive and just wonderful Defense of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Oh, he was just so wonderful so many things that That Baptist value today.

They can find in those ways.

There are certainly some some areas in which we would disagree with John Gill.

We'll talk about those a little later on but for the most part.

He's just one of those wonderful Baptist forefathers that Is certainly worth?

Investigating and exploring and so Maybe just another thing to

our hearers his he pastored the The Goat Yard

Chapel in Horsley down and kind of the southern part of London.

Later named Carter Lane Baptist Church.

And so he was a pastor there for 51 years.

So he was there from 1720 to 1771 imagine 51 years as pastor of one

congregation.

But this wasn't just an ordinary congregation.

This was the church that was pastored by Benjamin Keech.

And so if you're familiar with Baptist history, Benjamin Keech was one of the one of the

great early Baptists in the

17th century.

Yeah, in fact that many reformed Baptists still use his catechism today and

In fact, I heard That the 19th century Prince of Preachers

Charles Haddon Spurgeon Had Entombed in the I

believe the cornerstone of Metropolitan Tabernacle among other things

the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith and Keech's catechism.

I heard that about

Benjamin Keech it didn't take over first

and then.

After Gill is another really influential Baptist minister John Rippon.

John Rippon is there for 63 years.

And it's from Carter Lane to New Park Street a

couple of other pastors New Park Street called New

Park Street.

Eventually, they moved to the Metropolitan Tabernacle.

So Spurge is there for 38 years until his death in 1892.

And so this same church the same.

Well, of course the congregation ages and and people are brought in and people are removed for various reasons.

But this the same church had Benjamin Keech John Gill John Rippon Charles Spurgeon all in the

same in the same 200 years

what it was just an amazing testimony.

It's just God's provision for this church.

Now.

What is it about? John Gill in your opinion that he

is Hardly known except for those in the

holes of academia today.

You you could hardly find any Christian That has not heard of Charles

Adams Spurgeon Crossing denominational lines.

I mean you could even speak to a Seventh -day Adventist and they May likely have heard of him and may

likely even have a very high opinion of him.

And I have met unfortunately a handful of people over the years who had no clue

Who Spurgeon was even though they claimed to be Christian in fact that included.

Back in the 90s, I remember while working for WMCA radio

Which is an affiliate of one of the in fact the largest Christian radio network in the world

Salem Communications.

While working there at the time of this station was located in Hasbro

Kites, New Jersey we had a visit from the very first general manager of

The very first Christian radio station in London England.

Because believe it or not prior to the 1990s It was illegal to have religious

radio in the UK and this was a new Thing that began

and the general manager of this very first station in London came to visit us.

So he could learn more about how to operate a Christian radio

station and during our meeting with him and the conference room

I said to him I I've always wanted to visit London and Especially

to visit the Metropolitan Tabernacle.

And he said pardon.

I said the Metropolitan Tabernacle Sorry not following you.

You know on Elephant and Castle in London the church where Charles Haddon Spurgeon the Prince of Preachers was

the pastor in the 19th century writer of

Numerous books Quoted heavily by churches of all denominations

to this day.

Sorry never heard of him.

This is the general manager of a Christian radio station in London.

But but although that in my experience was rare or is rare

To come across such a person who never heard of Spurgeon it's it is just as

uncommon to hear from people who know and appreciate Who John Gill was.

Do you have any explanation as to why?

Well, I think there are

there are

publications with

a turning

Interprets it as a picture of God and his people

and well, that was a wild

publication for Gil.

So during his own day as he of course he produces the

commentary on the whole Bible that is widely accepted and used and then his body of

doctrinal and practical divinity comes out and it's widely used.

And so during his day and and

maybe the 19th century if you're a Baptist pastor in

England and in some the the average pastor might have

30 to 50 books on his shelf and that's it.

And among those 30 to 50 books that a pastor might have during

most of the 18th and 19th

century three volumes of his doctrinal and

practical divinity and.

So, you know if you if you're a pastor You got 50 books and a dozen

of them are from John Gill.

Huge influence when you think about it all over all over the UK.

And appreciated by Baptists.

And really and once you get to the rise of higher criticism in the mid to late 19th century

He begins to be I guess less

huge

shifts in a huge way.

And so he kind of falls out of favor in some ways.

I would say nowadays people who are familiar with Gil they probably hear

about Gil when they're studying the doctrines related to Calvinism and Often

Gil is portrayed as one of the bad guys and so that I think puts a bad taste in people's mouths.

Concerning John Gill.

So if you're studying the doctrines of grace often your

distinction between evangelical Calvinism

most most academic people would prefer the term high Calvinism.

Hyper -Calvinism has kind of a negative connotation.

But a very negative.

Hyper -Calvinism is no one

ever for themselves.

You mean if I

can help it, but high Calvinism.

So a lot of times high associated with John Gill.

For some reasons that we can discuss.

Yeah, even Spurgeon referred to him using that trick, correct?

So there are some interesting features of what that conversation really entails.

So high Calvinism is the kind of a variety of Calvinism that

Accents a few particular points that leads to what we would say is a major

Deviation from teaching so

non elect

people

have a duty

to a denial of the author of the gospel so the language of

author gospel becomes hugely controversial During Gil's time and

in the generations after so most famously Andrew Fuller

1785 worthy of he's

trying to

push back on this high Calvinism and richly

theological and Orthodox evangelical Calvinism so often Gil is pitted against

Fuller and certainly Fuller is engaging with Gil so it's not totally unmerited but often Gil is viewed

as the bad guy and Fuller's the good guy and Gil is a bit more complicated than that.

And so there arise terms and labels like the Gillites versus the Fullerites.

That sort of thing and so often, you know to be associated with Gil is to be

Embracing of high Calvinism, which is basically said to oppose international missions to

oppose evangelism.

It can it can express itself in those ways.

Sometimes high Calvinist if you know God's elect are going to be brought in no matter what

there's no real place for the means proclamation

that would lead people to a kind of Doctrinal or practical antinomianism where they would

deny the use of the moral law as as meaningful in any way for a Christian,

so Gil was not an antinomian by any means so that that

whole discussion is sometimes called the modern question, which is Related to do non

elect people Have a responsibility Christ.

It wasn't that one of the primary.

Disputes that Century after Gil Charles Haddon Spurgeon

had with the strict Baptists on the one hand.

He was battling Those involved in the downgrade controversy and on the other side of the

spectrum.

He was battling with those Who were claiming to be Calvinist but were

strict that in the denomination known as the strict Calvinists who were denying that very thing of the

Duty faith that Spurgeon defended.

Am I right on that?

Associated

with and

Some Baptist churches were accepting

to the Lord's table, which is

who would accept them and others who would accept non credo

baptized Christians into membership,

so really their station concerning or

maybe you could think of it as restrictive and mixed Baptists during the

18th century and the 19th century as well and so all those

things was to see kind of where

the a lot of times these

essays that were published by the hundreds and just hand it out and.

In fact if you could pick up right where you left off there because we have to go to our first break and When

we return we'll have you pick up on the the pamphlets that were used to make

Debates public over theological issues.

And if anybody would like to ask a question of our guest today send an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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On iron sharpens iron.

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned in today.

My guest today has been and will continue to be for the entire two -hour

program Garrett Walden Who is discussing the John Gill project.

If you have questions of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence.

Before the break you were just About to get into the fact that during the

18th century and perhaps even the 19th century as well it's very common for

Pamphlets or booklets or tracts or something to that extent

to be distributed among the population that Involved heated theological debates of the

day.

And if you could pick up where you left off.

So this is

kind of in the context of

publication.

So people had his commentaries people had his body of divinity

pamphlets and tracts and Small booklets could be easily printed and circulated

and that was a purges on my

computer here at kind of a table of content and so

They they would be something like, you know an answer to the Birmingham one and

two.

And so he was he was responding to something that he read and it's it looks like it's uh, it's to

roughly 30 page Responses so think like a pretty substantive book chapter or something

like that.

Here's one called truth defended an answer to a pamphlet on the super lapsarian scheme.

And so he is responding to something that he read there.

Here's one the moral nature and fitness of things.

There's another called the necessity of good works unto salvation considered and then he's got

possibly 10 at least tracks and pamphlets on The the

on the issue of baptism examining the historical and

theological claims of infant baptism and of course He's he's seeking to refute

those historical and theological claims and seeking to establish a historical and theological affirmation

of Believers baptism by immersion and so that that would have been a really common practice In his

time to have those pamphlets circulating and so it wasn't just that Gil was

Academic people it would have been a little bit more popular level than that and You know nowadays

maybe a modern Comparison would be something like a blog.

Sometimes blogs can become so casual and people can say all sorts of things

that are sometimes not the most Gracious in blogs and that sort of thing.

But that is often a way of back and forth and of course social media as a whole another complexity to it.

But over the course of time the rise of higher criticism in Europe and kind of a shifting

social context of dialogue Gil kind of fades from from

people's Interests and accessibility and so a big part of people being

unfamiliar with Gil now has to do with accessibility.

So there's not a lot of great publications of Gil's writings ago.

There was the Baptist standard -bearer

body of doctrinal and practical divinity and also his

testament commentary.

Yeah, and they were actually operated by the strict Baptist today, aren't they?

I believe so.

I think they maybe

they're God in truth and

writing and the the formatting.

It's not the the easiest to read.

I've got a copy of that edition of the body of doctrinal and practical divinity and it's

it's really.

Quite tedious to read.

Yeah, I looked at the commentaries that my Beloved friend Pete Padre

or should I say his late wife? Gave to me and I opened up the commentaries and sure enough

exactly what you're describing.

I'm gonna need Both reading glasses and a magnifying glass.

I think.

Way to navigate to a particular chapter and verse

of a book is not always very Easy to find.

And so, you know a big part of the the challenge of

deepening our love of Baptist theology and learning Baptist history is to take some of these

resources that were so influential in their day and bring them into the 21st century while

preserving them, but also just Representing them in a way that is more agreeable to

modern expectations of Typesetting and formatting and and printing and

and binding and those sorts of things.

And so that's a big impetus for the John Gill project is to bring these works of Gil into them

into the modern day.

And I can immediately think of one reason Why Gil may not be as?

Prevalent a name that is lauded Today.

Usually for the most part not always but usually reformed Baptists and

our conservative Bible believing Presbyterian brothers enjoy a lot of

warm camaraderie and Fellowship and pulpit exchange and so on.

And from what I have read Gil was far more caustic in his References to infant

baptism than Charles Spurgeon was.

I'm not saying that pastor Spurgeon did not get

Heated in his criticisms of those he with whom he disagreed at all.

In fact, he had some very harsh comments for those who have an Arminian concept of

salvation and equated their understanding of the

Accomplishment of Christ on Calvary's cross as Monstrous

and and fitting of a god of the pagans and thugs because they because he

said that the Arminians believe in a God who punishes People for

their sins in hell after he allegedly already paid for them on the cross.

But but Gil was as far as infant baptism was concerned called it a remnant of potpourri and

in fact, I think he had a In fact, I know he had a booklet specifically on that issue that used

some harsh rhetoric.

Yes, yes.

Related to fit into

that so or maybe don't maybe doesn't fit into that I think he probably does.

So there's when we think of the word Catholic there's Catholic with a uppercase C.

So you would think of Roman Catholicism and.

Do I have to?

I'm a former Roman Catholic.

So.

Any any Baptist or Protestant for that matter would would have a negative conception of that use of the word Catholic.

But if you think back to them to the 19 creed There's a use of the word Catholic with a lowercase C

so that that notion of Catholic with a small C is this idea of this universal Church

of All of the people of God from all time and across all space.

Yeah, even the Presbyterians sometimes those that are more liturgical and even some Reformed Baptists will recite the

Apostles Creed which has the reference to the Catholic Church.

Small C.

Certainly.

I think I'm having in mind that the Apostles Creed as well.

So, um, so yeah, so there's a movement now trying to situate Baptists in

that small C Catholic Dialogue, how is it and

relate to other denominations and other church traditions and the broader Christian tradition and.

So doing some wonderful work there,

you know, John Gill is kind of an interesting piece of that.

You know, he had some dear friends who were not

he was.

He was he was a friend of Augustus top.

Yeah Rock of Ages him writer Rock of Ages Clef for me, right?

So Augustus Toplady was a major figure during the kind of the middle

Middle decades of the 18th century.

I think he died in 1778.

In fact, do you pick up when we return from our midway break on Augustus Toplady?

We have to go to our midway break now and please be patient with us folks because as always the midway break is a little Longer

than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a

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So, please be patient with us.

And if you have a question send it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris ARN z en at gmail .com.

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That's also the email address where you could send in a question to Garrett Walden and We are discussing the John Gill project

that's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Give his first name at least city and state and country of residence.

Garrett we were just getting involved in a discussion before the break where we were

continuing to talk about Theological divisions that

created debates amongst brothers in Christ.

Sometimes those debates appeared to be quite heated but did not

Reflect a reality that often was existing behind that that heat.

Sometimes there were cherished friendships and Beloved brotherhoods that

existed even though the rhetoric of debate was sharp such as the

one of the most notable examples of that was the The heated debates it was usually

more heated on John Wesley's side but the heated debates that existed between George Whitfield and John

Wesley and They loved one another so much that what that Whitfield requested that Wesley

Preach at his funeral when he died and and Wesley did exactly that but if you want to pick up where you left off there.

Certainly certainly so I think there is a lot that can be learned.

But positive and negative so Gil really is not kind of a

grumpy sometimes people make him out to be.

He did have friendships with people that were quite different from him.

So for instance, you know, Augustus Toplety I mentioned Before the break just he's a great

hymn writer.

He's a theologian during his day and he was Different.

He wasn't a Baptist and also there is fear.

So Pantichellin, he

wrote the hymn guide me.

Oh thou great Jehovah.

And he was part of the kind of the Welsh movement.

And so he was just this wonderful Wonderful Christian man, and he lists Gil

among some of the most influential figures in his spiritual formation alongside Thomas Goodwin and

John Owen and Walter Marshall and and he lists Gil on that list.

It really is quite, you know.

These friendships often it would have been through letter correspondence.

Another was.

So there was friendship that extended across these kinds of doctrinal lines.

Yes, even.

Samuel Stennett who was a Seventh -day Baptist he worshipped on Saturday and

he and Gil cherished a friendship between the two of them and did pulpit exchanges and

Stennett as as Whitfield requested of Wesley

Stennett preached at Gil's funeral and in fact Chapel Library has a

printed copy in booklet form of that sermon by the Seventh -day Baptist

Samuel Stennett at Gil's funeral.

And let's keep in mind folks.

I want to make it clear.

It was a Seventh -day Baptist not a Seventh -day Adventist.

The Seventh -day Adventist didn't even exist at the time.

But that's just another example.

Certainly certainly and so I do think there is a lot of a lot of evidence of

Friendship and classes that they had

and so particular Baptist of this time Which would be the Calvinistic Baptist

of this time to

not maintain a friendship with someone.

It's another thing to a particular

within the church.

So sometimes that would be a limitation on pulpit exchange depending on the nature of the

difference in doctrinal view sometimes that would be not welcoming.

But there's a diversity of view on this among

Baptists and even among particular Baptists During the 18th century and prior in the 17th

century as well in the second London

Confession for

intercession of

the church It essentially

and that's

usually usually a gifted brother, but it could include visitors in some ways.

It's also silent in the confession about Who Specifically may

participate in the Lord's Supper that's because there's a debate that goes all the way back to the 1670s between William

Kiffin and John Bunyan on this question and it's revived again in

Time period as well in the 1770s.

There's a Jonathan Edwards was involved in one wasn't in one of those

debates, you know, I'm actually I'm not familiar with With that side of it.

I know on the on the British side people that

drew Welcome and who's not welcome

in the Lord's Supper and so they would have these friendships that would abide but they still felt a

responsibility to maintain their Baptist distinctives and their church polity.

And so one of the interesting questions, you know, you mentioned Gil's pamphlets against refer

to it as an

interesting term, but intense to say the least

about his opposition to popery and To papists and so he he

would view infant baptism as one of the one of the kind of I

guess he calls it.

A part and pillar of.

Yes, that's that's right.

You just jogged my memory that I can vividly remember owning that in booklets one.

Yes.

Yes, so he would say that, you know, I think he would be along the same lines as some of the 17th century Baptist he would

say that Presbyterians and

congregate pain infant baptism.

They basically did not reform all the way.

They didn't complete the Reformation.

So the Baptist

polity including the Baptist including he

does draw lines.

He also had a really interesting eschatology his view

of the end times

is me

Ecclesial power and so or his spiritual power.

And so he has nothing but Critical words to say about Roman Catholicism.

And so I guess that we would say that, you know coming back to that term Catholic There is an element of

Catholicity Small C in Gil because he does have friendships and

Christian relationships from other denominations

and a recognition of.

But he is not large C Catholic far from it.

In fact, and so he's quite critical of the Roman Catholic Church.

And so One of the other kind of evidences of that is Gil's Just wonderful

scholarship in the early church.

He was he was a very Accomplished patristics scholar.

So he quotes from Augustine he quotes from Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil of Caesarea, so

many of the great church fathers and he's reading them in the original Latin and

Greek and.

And so he's just a really so he doesn't he's not

averse to tradition.

He's not averse to Christians who think differently, but he's He is very committed to

his Baptist distinctives.

And that's one of the things that I really have valued about Gil.

Earlier, you'd asked me when did I first encounter Gil and it was in studying the doctrines of grace and

sometimes I think we can get into a mentality that to be.

There's a famous quote.

I think it's by Cardinal Newman to be deep in

history

study

Christianity is Roman Catholicist sucked me into studying history

is to see that's just simply not true.

And I think Gil is a good representative of that.

He he is very deep in history.

He goes all the way back to the early church and he's deriving biblical and spiritual and theological truths from

from history and tradition and so all of those things make me just really excited to study Gil and to to

see his works reprinted or for a new generation and he really is just a wonderful

example in so many ways of Baptist history and theology while we can still be

critical of him in some other ways.

There are some elements of his theology that are that are problematic.

For instance his doctrine of eternal justification where he basically says that

When God elects people in eternity past he also He

also in eternity past

there is no in time when they're converted.

It's not that they receive justification for an eternally

adopted it's as an eminent act of God and so that ultimately leads to a lot of major problems and

Some of the major I guess Deviations into high Calvinism.

Yeah, I believe that I believe many if not most Of the primitive Baptists have that

concept from John Gil In

the 18th century

as well Gil and Brian and some of the ways that there

took those doctrines and made them Greater than they should

be or even just

so in England during the time.

There's general Baptists who are mostly Arminian and there are particular

Baptists pretty pretty thoroughly denied the doctrine of the Trinity and the general Baptist ran into a lot of

problems in the 18th century because they largely become Unitarian they

Preserve the doctrine of the Trinity largely through the influence of John Gil.

But they fell into some other errors influenced

by

John

Gil began to

fizzle of

the 18th century.

So it really is just an amazing thing to see so many things wonderfully exemplified in Gil but

also some things to be critical of and so it's not a We're not trying to repristinate Gil as an

infallible source but as a helpful way just like your program iron sharpening iron there

there's a there's a Contrast there's a conflict.

There's a hammering out that we have to work on with Gil.

We need to read Charitably and we need to read critically

and we need to read brotherly warmth.

He's a he's a senior Scholar, he's an older brother who we can bring into the dialogue for

our good.

And I'm assuming You and your colleagues at the London

Lyceum and more specifically at the John Gil project find more That is

favorable and valuable about Gil than anything that Anything over which you

disagree with him?

And so tell us about why the John Gil project was Started

how it started and exactly what it what what is it?

Certainly certainly so the John Gil project is a collaborative effort To

bring the works of John Gil into the 21st century.

Describing into modern

types to make it a really attractive and appealing

book and something that people could actually read.

Without like you said that

we're trying to bring him to a more accessible format for people.

And I mentioned that it's a collaborative effort.

It's between the Andrew Fuller Center That is run by dr. Michael

Haken and dr Jonathan Swan is one of his colleagues there.

So the Andrew Fuller Center focuses on 18th century Baptist history and theology

Primarily and so they're doing wonderful work.

And so they're partnering with us giving some Some content and academic oversight to the

project because we want it to be quality and not shabby.

We're also partnering with H &E publishing HESED and MS publishing and

so H &E publishing is led by a man chance Faulkner and

his colleague Chris Osterbrook and They're a Canadian publishing house that

specifically is seeking to promote Baptist history and heritage and it's just a wonderful

wonderful group of people there at H &E publishing and then for the London Lyceum

Jordan Stefaniak and I along with some other brothers who work with us are Are

grateful to be a part of this as well.

So we're doing a lot of the.

A.

Good bit of the on the ground work to raise support for the project and to do some fundraising.

We're putting our hand to the plow to do some of the transcription and footnoting and

formatting and and stuff like that.

So the London Lyceum is a kind of a center for Baptist theology

and history for analytic philosophy and So it's it's just a really

wonderful community of people.

We have a podcast and a website and it's on our website that you can find some information about the London Lyceum

so specifically what's going on with the London Lyceum and and the John Gill project is We're

going to be reproducing Gill's works in about 20 volumes several years.

We're trying to have it out by

essentially Gill's introduction What is theology

and it's his kind of prolegomena, it's his introduction to the theological task and the work of the

theologian and It's going to have a new introduction from Jonathan Swan who is a

Wonderful Gill scholar and so that first volume is coming out.

It's well underway and then shortly thereafter.

We're going to have a few other projects coming out.

We've got a Gill on the doctrine of the Trinity.

That's on its way.

We've got a volume on Gill on the divine attributes coming out.

Hopefully next year I'm working on a section on the blessings of grace

in Gill's body of the nature of redemption

appreciation atonement reconciliation adoption

regeneration

20 volumes projected over the next part

of that is his body of doctrinal

and practical divinity.

Where we've taken some of the some just really influential and meaningful selections.

We've kind of brought it into modern English and we're abridging it to where it's a good volume for

church members and church leaders to use.

The full volume will come out as well, but first we're going to give out an abridged volume to

hopefully get people's Interest get their get their feet wet and reading Gill and help them to understand the value of

something like the John Gill project.

So That's really kind of where we are.

We do believe that there's so much to appreciate from Gill there are What important areas where you need to read critically,

but there's so much more Richness to be gained than there are dangers to be avoided in Gill.

And so we want to make him more accessible and readable for this

For this generation.

So like I said, there's some coming out by the end of the year and then over the course of the next several years.

They're going to be produced by H &E Publishing.

So that that's kind of the heart of the project and There's there's more

that can be said but well, we have a couple of

listener questions already.

We have.

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania and Arnie says I

have heard Chris Arndt's an interview on iron sharpens iron radio men who?

Strongly and adamantly Defend John Gill as not being a hyper Calvinist.

That would include Dr. Tom Nettles who was formerly in the faculty at the Southern Baptist Theological

Seminary and also more recently Reverend Roger Salter the

rector of st. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

Who conducted an interview with Chris on the theme?

John Gill and Augustus top lady.

Two compatible Calvinists both of these men Salter and Nettles love

Gill and Defend him as I said as being a historically Orthodox Calvinist.

But there are those that Chris has interviewed on his show that I've stated that.

They believe Gill was a hyper Calvinist.

What is your opinion on this and the majority of the opinions of those on the staff at?

The Lyceum and the John Gill project.

That's that is

such a wonderful in

Baptist scholarship.

So I think the best presentation is

From dr. Tom Nettles, and he's got a book called by his grace and for his glory.

Amen.

I've been giving that book out to our minions who say that they love every hero chronicled

in that book.

And yet they remain anti -calvinists and I use that book to Have them

discover how thoroughly Calvinistic many of these men that they claim as their heroes were.

Certainly certainly and dr.

Nettles is such.

I recommend that book to people all time he has.

He does hold the position that Gill is not a hyper Calvin and so You know, there are different lines of

argumentation for this.

So You can examine someone's stated theology and make a

determination or you could examine someone's And make a determination.

So for instance Gill Does not preachers

should he expressly denies that the language of offer,

you know from based on what he said.

We would say he is a high Calvinist because he denies the free offer of the gospel.

On the other hand if you read his sermons It sure does sound like an evangelical

kind of Evangelistic message and the way he concludes some of his sermons It sure does sound like he's

he's in he's he's not using the word offer but he can use some of the concepts like inviting and

urging sinners to.

And so sometimes you can look at someone's practice and it's not always doesn't always match up with their stated theology.

And there there is I don't know how much you know about the Protestant Reformed denomination I have

had members of that denomination on this program and They believe that there is this

distinction between a denial of the well -meant offer of

the gospel and The indiscriminate

evangelizing of the gospel which they Would know both of those things would identify

The Protestant Reformed Church, they do deny the well -meant offer, but they do believe that indiscriminate evangelism

that we are supposed to declare The gospel to every living creature.

So how would you?

See those things.

Would you see them as?

Synonymous or do you see a distinction?

Right.

I think I think that's really kind of gets at the essence of the modern question or the question about high Calvinism so

so I think the questions are related and the issues are related and so I think

that's kind of the tension that Gil found himself in is The gospel is

the good news of Christ Redeem all of his

elect one of the ways through the

means of preaching and proclamation.

And so Gil was a huge impact in his own time.

And so he there are sinners being converted under his ministry,

you know question to ask, you know.

Does the doctrine of election Evangelistic Responsibility, I

think Gil would say no it doesn't inhibit our evangelistic responsibility.

However, some of the ways that he works out his theology Can sure seem to lead to that conclusion.

So for instance, I mentioned the the doctrine of eternal justification.

If you were to take that Conviction to its logical conclusion only those who are

justified eternally in the mind of God are Ever to be saved and they certainly

will be saved.

I mean in fact the justification and adoption are already

Established in the mind of God if that's the case, then there

really is no need for evangelization

Justifications already you've got certain

theology Theological positions that lead to a certain logical conclusion.

But when you get into the examination of Gil's ministry, he doesn't really preach that way.

It's not that he's just completely contradictory to himself, but there are times where he does

Contradict himself and in fact one of Andrew Fuller's kind of lines of argument in

the gospel worthy of all acceptation in 1785.

He's got another edition that came out a second edition.

He quotes John Gil against John Gil and.

But over here he says this other thing and so he basically shows that that Gil is is

Inconsistent on this and you know, I think that there's it's one of those kind of delightful

inconsistencies.

Where you know if he were to be consistent with some of the principles that he expresses I think it would be more

problematic.

So so my position on this to answer Arnie's question I do think that Gil

is a high Calvinist on On some of these really important doctrines.

So it has to do with how you define high Calvinism.

So high Calvinism is the denial of duty faith and the

denial of the free offer of the gospel and It's also kind of buttressed by some other theological

conviction like eternal justification.

I believe that Gil does tick all those boxes and so would qualify as a high Calvinist

however, I Think the reason it's so debated is because there are certain parts of Gil's writings where

he seems to deny things that he affirms Elsewhere and there are certain aspects of Gil's practice where he

doesn't necessarily practice in perfect conformity to what he's explained in his in his systematic theology

and I think that's why it's so contentious and that's why I think that Gil should not be written off

if you brand him as a high Calvinist and then You know, you just put him away because you know, we don't want to get our

theology from that kind of that kind of source.

It's a huge mistake.

It's way more complex than that.

And so.

So, so dr. Nettles, I think is the best expression of the Negative.

He's not a high Calvinist another scholar David Rachel has a Wonderful article

on Gil and the question of hyper Calvinism.

Where dr. Rachel I think pretty pretty well shows that the evidence for

affirming that Gil is a hyper Calvinist and so.

So those would be two places to go Nettles chapter and by his grace and for his glory and then if you just search

For David Rachel, he's got an essay that's in the Southern Baptist Journal of Theology I think it's free

and open access online.

You can find David Rachel's essays.

His last name is R -A -T -H -E -L and.

So I think I do side more with Rachel on this but I certainly recognize the merit

argument.

I think my position dr. Higgins.

And I think Timothy George holds a view quite similar to dr. Nettles so you can imagine

complicated.

And even the disagreement over whether high Calvinism is equivalent to hyper.

Okay.

Yeah, so when I'm using them in this way.

Yeah, I'm using the hyper.

Calvinism is certainly in

such a negative way.

So I would say Gil is a high count of

the negative connotation.

Okay, and we have to go to our final break right now.

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All righty.

Now we are back with our guest Garrett Walden and when you when you were saying

that Andrew Fuller was writing about

John Gill against John Gill using Excerpts of Gil's teachings to refute other

excerpts of Gil's teachings.

Immediately reminded me of Martin Luther because it is baffling to me how a man

could believe in Sola gratia and solo fidei and still believe in baptismal

regeneration.

Makes no sense.

But doesn't mean we're going to throw out Martin Luther as a great hero either.

Certainly certainly and when you think about how much and you think about the expenses

He's going to be developing in his theology along the way the same

thing happens much material.

And so he's developing himself as he learns and

we'd like to think that it's not just he forgot.

But he's developing and deepening his theological perspectives on various issues as they come up.

You know a similar thing happens with st. Augustine in the early church he he writes So much

material and toward the end of his life.

He publishes a Separate book called retraction where he essentially goes back through

some of his prior publications says these are the things that I thought I was I thought I made sense

to change my mind and you just wonder you know if

Gil had the opportunity to go back through all of his writing and Compare kind of his earlier writings with his

later writing.

Would he have caught some of those areas of inconsistency that Fuller caught and that's one of the one of the

challenges of being Dr.

Voluminous is voluminous you you're just bound to you're

bound to kind of cross hairs at various places and I do consider it kind of a delightful inconsistency

in some way because I Do think his his practice and his heart was far more

evangelical than some of his followers kind of Turned the steering wheel in a

certain direction and I think when you read Gil especially his sermons and his his

statements in his body of divinity.

He really is just a top -tier Baptist scholar and and theologian and pastor.

And so he's so valuable.

Amen.

And we have Grady from Asheboro, North Carolina who says greetings brothers.

We know Spurgeon went pretty much straight into preaching after his conversion.

How about John Gil that he have any formal training.

And if not was this typical for most Baptist preachers of that era?

That's a wonderful question.

I kind of glossed over that when I was explaining a little bit about who John Gil was.

John Gil was He was born to Baptist parents and was

was a teenager.

And it was a little bit later on that he becomes a pastor.

He becomes a pastor around 1720 so he would have been 23 and it was in his early 20s

when he begins to be the pastor of Cotillard Chapel there at Horseshoe Downs and so he's

Just a wonderful example of someone who starts young in ministry and is truly faithful all the days of his

of his life to his ministry and to The work that the Lord called him to in terms of his training.

It was really 12 years old.

He is kind of this child prodigy of.

Intellectual achievement.

I knew we had something else in common.

Amazing intellect and people were recognizing his ability.

He was really proficient in in Greek and Latin and Hebrew

student and so his family was.

Was basically given kind of an ultimatum if Gil is to if John Gil is to

continue his education there were sponsorships available from.

The only two universities in the UK at the time that were really doing this sort of thing were Oxford and Cambridge.

But to be admitted you had to be part of the Church of England, right?

And even even in Spurgeon's day, that's why he was not seminary educated.

Correct correct.

And so John Gil's parents had this, you know, we could we

could baptism and membership into the Anglican communion in their parish or

or not and they chose to stay true to their Baptist convictions.

And so John Gil received an education up until the age of 12 and then the rest of the

time.

He is what's called an autodidact.

He's a self teacher.

So he teaches himself through reading a lot of literature and Just

through and so it's one of the amazing Just

testimonies to his character and to his work ethic is that he becomes so influential.

Largely driven by his own his own work ethic.

Now during his day there were Some Baptist academies for instance

the Baptist Academy at Bristol.

That that comes along after after Gil's pastorate begins.

So there weren't a ton of opportunities for Gil but for some of his successors for the rest of the 18th century.

There were some other Baptist academies that would be kind of like our equivalent of seminary or Bible College

and we are and we're out of time brother.

I'm sorry.

Also gives me further reason why we have to have you come back on the show.

But for those of you who are listening, don't forget about Grace Heritage Church in Auburn, Alabama.

The website is grace heritage org grace heritage org.

And don't forget about the John Gil project.

Go to the London Lyceum.

Calm.

The London Lyceum calm.

Click on resources then scroll down to the John Gil project.

I want to thank you for doing such an exquisite job today Brother Garrett, and I look forward to your return to the show.

I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is

a far greater Savior than you are.

A sinner.