September 8, 2022 Show with Alexander Strauch on “Biblical Eldership”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlyle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 8th day of September 2022, and quite a historic day as well, as we have all just recently heard of the death of Queen Elizabeth, and we can only hope that her profession of faith in Christ was legitimate, and I have heard some quotes by her, and I don't know if she actually wrote them, but she did say, at least in writing on a number of occasions, things that would lead us to believe that she possessed genuine faith, but we can only hope that was the case.

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She died at 96 years of age on this day, and her son became

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Britain's new monarch, King Charles III. But that is not the topic of our discussion today.

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I am thrilled that we have, for the very first time on the program, somebody that I have been wanting to interview for years, and I remember on a couple of previous attempts to book him as a guest in the program, there was a conflict scheduling that prevented it from happening.

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Todd's timing is always perfect, and we have him on today. I'm speaking of none other than Alexander Stroup, who has served in the leadership and teaching ministry of Lyttelton Bible Chapel of Lyttelton, Colorado, for nearly 50 years, and he has taught in more than 25 countries, and whose book has been translated into over 30 languages, and who has made an impact on churches globally through the ministry of BiblicalEldership .com.

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Today we are going to be addressing his classic work, greatly beloved by many,

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Biblical Eldership, an Urgent Call to Restore Biblical Church Leadership, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Triple Zion Radio, Alexander Stroup.

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Chris, I'm glad to be with you. Amen. This has taken quite a while. We finally connected.

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Yes, and by the way, I have to make sure, I forgot to ask you before we were on the air, am I pronouncing your last name correctly,

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Stroup? You did a wonderful job. Okay, great. Well, praise God. Well, why don't you let our listeners know something about Lyttelton Bible Chapel of Lyttelton, Colorado.

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Well, first I want to tell you that John Stott, who was an honorary chaplain to the Queen, and certainly a great born -again man, great commentator, writer, many, many books, he has said very clearly that he said that she had a very clear profession of trust in Christ.

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Amen. He was a man who knows her and was a chaplain to her. So, again, the

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Lord judges these things, not us. Amen. Well, that is very good to hear. And so tell us something about Lyttelton Bible Chapel of Lyttelton, Colorado.

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Yes, well, we're in Lyttelton, Colorado, just one of the suburbs of Denver, our south suburb, and maybe about 70 ,000 people in our little town.

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And our church was started just almost exactly 60 years ago, started in a home in a basement of a brother, and then moved to the

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YMCA, and then seven or eight years, oh no, only about five years later, we built the building, and we've expanded on that building to about 600 to 700 people.

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We have several other churches, sister churches that we have started and doing very, very well.

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We're a Bible teaching church, a Bible expository teaching church. We are governed by a body of seven elders.

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One of them is full -time. We used to have two full -time, but that person had to leave.

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And it's a very good church. We've never, by the grace of God, had a church split, which is almost a miracle.

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It's a very loving church, kind, Bible -oriented, and it's been a marvelous experience being there now 52 years.

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Well, praise God. And I want to give our listeners the website if you are visiting

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Lyttelton, Colorado, or if you live anywhere near there, or if you have family, friends, and loved ones in or near there, go to littletonbiblechapel .org,

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littletonbiblechapel .org, and God willing, we will be reminding you of that website toward the end of the program.

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And I just want to also take this time to thank Lewis and Roth Publishing for, over the years, being extremely generous to the

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Iron Troupe and Zion Radio Free Pastors Luncheons. Several years ago,

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Lewis and Roth, who publishes my guest's classic work,

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Biblical Eldership, an Urgent Call to Restore Biblical Church Leadership, and other books, they have been kind enough in years past to donate copies of Biblical Eldership for every single pastor attending my pastor's luncheons.

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And this year, they have been kind enough to donate one of the other books they have brought into print.

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And this book, I'm excited to not only give out to the pastors attending, but sinking my teeth into it once I get my own copy, and hopefully getting an interview in the future with Brother Strauch on this other book that is not the discussion of our show today.

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But if you could, to whet the appetite of our listeners, especially perhaps even pastors listening who are going to be attending my free

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Iron Troupe and Zion Radio Pastors Luncheon on September 22nd, tell us about Acts 20,

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Fierce Wolves Are Coming, Guard the Flock. Yes, it's a book I'm very excited about,

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Chris, and here's why. Here you have this long passage in which the great

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Apostle Paul meets with the first elders of the great church in Ephesus, one of the epicenters of early

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Christianity. You have Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and Rome. Now it's hard to believe, but just trust me, there is no book written on this subject from an expository point of view.

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There's two books, but they're highly technical, and if you read them, you would go to sleep.

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But that could be a good thing. If you are suffering from insomnia, there are books that are guaranteed to put you to sleep.

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It has been my burden for many years to do a full Bible exposition with much practical application to this amazing, one -of -a -kind passage in the

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New Testament. There is nothing else like it where you have the great Apostle exhorting and commanding the elders what to do because he is leaving and they are not going to see him again.

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So he tells us his insight into what he did, and he now wants them to do the same thing, such as teach the whole counsel of God and guard the church.

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Wolves are coming, and they're even coming from within the church. Well, that's the whole history of the church of Jesus Christ.

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So it's actually an apostolic, prophetic statement of the future. Wolves are coming, and from within your own midst, men will arise speaking perverted, twisted things to draw away the disciples after them.

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So, Chris, why we don't have five, ten books on this, we don't know.

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It's a big lack. So I'm very excited about this book, and if people are interested in this book and would read it, you just let me know.

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We may be able to find some free copies. Praise God. I am so honored to be able to distribute this book to the men at the luncheon, as I said, and I'm sure they'll be even more thrilled to receive them.

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And I haven't even read it yet, but knowing of the high caliber of biblical literacy, the gifts that God has given you in regard to exegeting the

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Scriptures properly after having read Biblical Eldership, an Urgent Call to Restore Biblical Church Leadership many years ago, and also the book that you did on the diaconate, you're a blessed brother, and I'm very confident that this book on Acts 20 is going to be equally as important.

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And we have a tradition here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, whenever we have a first -time guest on the program, we have that guest give a summary of his or her salvation testimony, and that would include the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised, the kind of providential circumstances our

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Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. So I would love to hear your story.

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Well, I was raised in a non -Christian family, and my mom was

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Roman Catholic, never went to church, and my dad was some kind of Protestant, but he never went to church.

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But we had to, as teenagers and young people, adolescents, go to church, because my dad said, it's bad luck if you don't go to church when you're young.

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You need to get baptized and Christian when you're young. After that, after 18, you don't ever have to go again, he said, but you don't want,

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I didn't want any more bad luck being raised in Newark, New Jersey. So we went to a church, but it was a liberal church.

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I never heard the gospel. So a friend of mine, I was about 11 years of age, and I loved fishing, like almost every day go fishing where we lived, we could get a stream, and somehow

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I fell in the water every day. My mother said, how do you get wet all the time? I said, I don't know, it must be a skill

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I have. But anyway, my friend said to me, I'm going to a camp in New York State, and they have wonderful fishing, can you come?

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So I asked my parents, I said, can I go to this camp called Pine Bush Bible Camp?

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Now, I didn't even know what that meant, a Bible camp, and we had to bring a Bible. Well, we didn't have a

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Bible, so we bought a Bible. So I went to this camp, I had all my fishing gear with me, and there was wonderful fishing there.

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That I would have to say, you'd be catching fish every 30 seconds. It was marvelous.

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Anyway, the very first time I heard the gospel, Christ died for my sins.

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I am a sinner. I need a Savior. I need the rebirth to become a child of God.

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Do you know, Chris, I had no resistance to it. I just knew that is true. And so I responded to the gospel literally the first time

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I heard it. I was like ripe fruit. You just picked off the tree.

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Well, anyway, I was born again, 1956, July 1956.

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Went home, and that year did nothing spiritually because there was no help. I went to my church.

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It was nothing there, zero. Went back to camp the next year, rededicated myself to the

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Lord. I knew I was saved the first time. But when I'd get home, I'd fall back in with the crowd. You know, boys like to go in the woods and smoke and do stupid things, and that's what

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I was doing. Next year I went back to camp again, same thing happened. I rededicated my life to the

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Lord, went back home, nothing happened that whole year. Then the third year,

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I was 13 now, I went to camp, and there was a man there who said, now what are you doing for your spiritual life?

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I said, I don't know what to do. So he said, I'm going to come to your house every

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Friday night, ask your parents if that's okay. By that time, my brother was there, and two or three other friends were joining me.

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We were all fishermen. And so anyway, that third year when

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I was 13, every Friday night, this man sacrificially came to my house, and we had the

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Island Bible Club. And by that time, we were getting our friends to come. And it was a wonderful time of spiritual growth, which shows you the importance of discipleship.

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We had scripture memory. We had to read the Bible. We sang songs. We had sword drills.

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We had Bible lessons. And then that man, very sacrificially, and Chris, there are millions of Christians like this,

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Sunday school teachers, camp counselors that help people. No one knows their name, but there are millions of them all over the world, discipling people very humbly.

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They get very little credit in this world. Anyway, for the next three years, every

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Friday night, he came to our home, and we started to really grow, learn what it is to be separate from the world and not to be dragged in by the gang and by the neighborhood people.

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It's always a very big problem for young men because they want to belong. And then when

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I was about 16, my parents finally let me leave this liberal church, which

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I wasn't learning anything there, and a church that was willing to come and pick me up every

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Sunday morning, Sunday evening. They came for me. It was a small church, maybe about 60 people, but it was actually a

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Bible -believing church. I'd never been in a Bible -believing church. Everyone carried their Bibles.

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If you carried the Bible in the church I grew up in, they'd probably think you're a religious fanatic, and probably who knows, you're with the

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Taliban or something. Oh, that's true. I'm not joking.

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Because we saw a number of young people in our church saved, high schoolers saved, and I was brought by the pastor to the elders.

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It was a Presbyterian church, and I was to give my testimony to the elders. They never seen anything like this.

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High schoolers carrying a Bible, Bible study every Friday night, all summer at camp.

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I mean, my mother thought we were religious fanatics, and she warned me, people who study the

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Bible like that lose their mind, she said. Now, Chris, when I was about 15,

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I started studying the Bible every day, three or four hours minimum, minimum. Got very interested in the

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Bible, and it really scared my mother and father. They thought the kid's gone fanatic. Now, I want to show you,

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I want to show you how little they knew about Christianity. One day my dad says to me, he starts to see

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I'm taking this really serious, and probably, right from the beginning, I knew I wanted to serve the

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Lord full time. So anyway, by 13, that was very clear in my mind. But anyway, he said to me one day, all right, if you're going to get into religion, can you become the

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Pope? And the reason he said that is, to him, religion is all about money, and if you're going to get into it, get into the money.

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So I said, Dad, we're Protestants. We're not Catholics. So anyway, I didn't become the

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Pope, incidentally. So I started to go to a

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Bible -believing church, and boy, you could see the difference immediately. Now, this is in now the late 50s, and here's something very interesting.

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Those people in that church of maybe 60, they knew their Bibles. You could quote something in the

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New Testament, and they could point to within a verse or two, oh yeah, that's 2 Thessalonians 2.

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That's how well they knew their Bibles. At exact opposite from the church I came, people never opened the

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Bible. If you said Thessalonians, they wouldn't know what you're talking about. So anyway, I started to really grow.

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I was studying all summer. Then from about 14 on, my entire summers were spent at Pine Bush Bible Camp in New York State, about 80 miles directly north of New York.

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In fact, I'm going to be back in New York next Wednesday to do a conference for a whole bunch of Spanish churches, many of them which are connected to this

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Pine Bush Bible Camp. So it's going to be very thrilling for me to see some of these people that I actually knew 60 years ago.

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So anyway, somewhere around my age of 20, I realized

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I'm still not getting enough Bible. I was finished with high school. I had to work the next two years and started a teacher's college in the evening because I thought being a teacher is a good profession.

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You have the whole summer free. I'm still involved, Chris, with camp work. This summer we had over 1 ,000 young people at our camp and 170 professions.

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I'm telling you, camp work is a fruitful ministry. We have seen,

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I've met people all over the world, saved at a Bible camp. And thank the Lord there's

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Bible camps all over America. And I'm going to this January be speaking at the

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National Camp Convention down in Florida. And I'm excited about it because I believe in camp work.

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I give a lot of my time to it. And we get these young people for a whole week or two and we have them in the gospel, in the cabins talking to them.

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So anyway, it's a wonderful ministry. So I wanted a job that I could be at camp all summer and serve the

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Lord more. And so I started out at a teacher's college.

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But after a couple of years out of high school working full time in the day, quitting my job and going to camp all summer, which aggravated my father,

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I said, I need more training. And so at about 20, I went to a Bible school, something like Moody.

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And I was going for one year to get more intensified Bible training. I wasn't getting enough of that on a higher level in my church.

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Although it's a good Bible believing church, I knew there was so much more. And so that started my

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Bible school training. I ended up getting a degree from Colorado Christian University and then went on to Denver Seminary, which was at the time, all this is in Denver, called the

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Conservative Baptist Theological Seminary. Now it's called the Denver Seminary. I have a master's of divinity from there.

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At the end of seminary, I was, all right, now by this time,

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I'm working in a church, the same church I'm in now, starting in 1969, I started working in this church with the youth.

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And after seminary, so I'm in seminary, I'm working in this church for free, putting mega hours in with the youth.

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And we saw many young people save, many was during the Jesus revolution. We've never seen anything like this since.

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So after this time, after seminary, I didn't know what I was going to do, but I get a phone call from Colorado Christian University saying that the philosophy teacher had gotten very sick.

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And this was the summer of 73. Could I just teach one course?

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They knew I had a philosophy degree. I said, sure, I have nothing else to do and they're going to pay me to teach this one course.

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That's all it was. One course, you call an adjunct teacher and the kids loved the philosophy course so much.

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I used a lot of Francis Schaeffer stuff. Most of the time, kids hate philosophy, especially first year philosophy.

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The kids loved it so much. They were just saying how much they love the course. They said, well, listen, the rest of the summer, would you teach two courses the rest of the summer?

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I said, sure, I have nothing else to do and you're going to pay me for it. Well, anyway, for the next seven years,

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I was a teacher at Colorado Christian University teaching two courses a semester.

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I never wanted to be hired full time. I refused that because my goal was the church.

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And so in 1980, our church had really grown and the elders asked me to leave my job.

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That job provided finances for me. And by this time, I was already starting to write biblical eldership.

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And so in 1980, I left the teaching job, which most people would have given a right arm for, and to work full time in our local church in Littleton, Colorado, which

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I've been to ever since. And it's been a marvelous church. We've had a wonderful group of elders and we're all very dear friends.

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Now, I'm not an elder anymore. I retired from that job, although I'm still very active in the church.

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We have the third generation of elders. We train them and it's time to hand it over to them.

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I'm 77 now. So I was 65 when I retired and the other brothers all about the same time.

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So we're there to help, to advise, whatever the brothers want us to do. We have one of the brothers,

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Dave Anderson, a marvelous preacher. He does about 70 % of the preaching on Sunday morning. And he's a very exceptional teacher.

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So that brings you up to where I am now. And my ministry now is to help at the church.

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I go around and speak at conferences. Although the COVID has shut much that down, that was great to me.

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I was able to finish the Act 20 book. And public speaking, going out on the road, is picking up now slowly.

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We go to all the major conferences to display our books. We were just at T4G, 11 ,000 people.

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And what was interesting, Chris, is most of them were under 30. It was marvelous. We have all our books out.

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These are the people we're looking for. So I go to conferences. My main job is to write.

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And right now, if we want to talk about this later, I am doing a complete rewrite of Biblical Eldership.

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It's 30 years old. It desperately needs an updating. Lots of new commentaries have come out.

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I know the questions better. Over these 30 years, I've become a better writer. Try to write simply and clearly.

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Don't try to impress people. So that's my life. I have four adult daughters.

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I have 15 grandchildren. And they're all believers in the Lord. Hallelujah.

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That's always great to hear. Oh, yes. Praise the Lord. Well, we're going to our first commercial break.

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If anybody has a question for Alexander Strauch on Biblical Eldership, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

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Let's say you are in disagreement with how your church practices

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Biblical Eldership or the lack of it. Or perhaps you're even a pastor and you disagree with the denomination that you're in or the congregation that you're in over the

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Eldership. Those things, obviously, would be good reasons to remain anonymous.

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But if it's just a general question about what the Bible teaches, about what

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Alexander Strauch has exegeted from the Scriptures on this issue, please give us your first name, city and state, and the country of residence.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Alexander Strauch and Biblical Eldership right after these messages.

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Hi, I'm Pete Hegseth, co -host of Fox and Friends Weekend. Now, I don't have to tell you, but American education, it's in a free fall, crumbling under the weight of a century of damage inflicted upon America's academic system.

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The answer? It's called classical Christian education, a form of K -12 ed that's very distinct from the type of education most

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Americans have received, myself included. And that's why I'm so excited to have been invited by my friends at Long Island's Grace Christian Academy to talk about this wonderful, growing movement and new approach rediscovered to education.

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It's at 7 p .m. October 15th at the Marriott Hotel and Conference Center in Melville, New York. I'll also be signing copies of my

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New York Times bestselling book, Battle for the American Mind, for the first 50 guests, starting at 6 p .m.

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Now, this is a fundraising event designed to raise money to help grow this type of education at a time when it is so desperately needed.

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So please come ready to give and to learn about a way to stimulate academic revival in our great country.

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You can purchase tickets for the event by visiting GCALI, G -C -A -L -I dot com and following the link to the gala event.

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I hope to see you there. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend

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Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington, D .C.

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for the G3 Ministries regional conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held

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Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th. I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries, and Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the

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Just Thinking podcast. To register, visit g3min .org, that's g3min .org

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and click on events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C.

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So join me and Chris Arnson September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C.

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for the G3 Ministries regional conference. Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org,

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that's g3min .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

29:26

Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study?

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So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study God's word in those smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

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It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the word of God and is built upon sound doctrine, much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the

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Bible. Hi there, my name is Jordan Too and I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House.

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Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.

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Our quarterly curriculum is titled The Baptist Expositor and for good reason, we are

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Baptist and we exegete the scriptures. If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the word of God, I invite you, go to our website, download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.

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May God bless you. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

30:46

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed.

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Dr. Joe Morecraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland.

31:02

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

31:08

Dr. Joe Morecraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Morecraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County and part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

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Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards. And Dr.

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Joe Morecraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

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Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

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Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

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Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

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For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com

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that's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com or call 678 -954 -7831 that's 678 -954 -7831

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If you visit, tell them Joel Roydigan, RN Sharpen's RN radio listener from Ottawa in County Kildare, Ireland sent you.

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Satan is the father of lies and spin, and the mother of those lies is a government who has rejected

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God. We have especially been lied to these last two years, and the COVID panic has been one of the central mechanisms that our government has used to lie to us and grab more power.

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Because Christians have not been reading their Bibles, we are susceptible to lies and are weak in our ability to fight these lies.

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God has given us His word to fight Satan and his lies, and we need to recover all of God's word, its serrated edge and all.

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Mark your calendars for October 6th through 8th as we fight, laugh, and feast to the glory of God in Knoxville, Tennessee.

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You'll be enlightened, edified, encouraged, and challenged by 10 speakers on the theme

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Lies, Propaganda, Storytelling, and the Serrated Edge, covering various topics that address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Speakers include Pastor Doug Wilson of Christ Church of Moscow, Idaho, and the whole gang at the

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Cross Politics show and podcast. For details, visit flfnetwork .com.

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That's F for Fight, L for Laugh, F for Feast, network .com.

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See you there October 6th through 8th in Knoxville, Tennessee. If you're near retirement or thinking about retiring, you probably have questions.

34:10

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when you make your purchase. We are now back with Alexander Strauch, and we are discussing his classic work,

43:11

Biblical Eldership, an Urgent Call to Restore Biblical Church Leadership. Obviously, even the subtitle of your book indicates that churches, many churches, not only local congregations, but even denominations, have a, let's say, an aberrant practice of the way that they have church polity done in their congregations.

43:46

And that's obviously why you would even put in that subtitle an Urgent Call to Restore Biblical Church Leadership.

43:53

When did you first begin to realize that this was the case?

44:00

Was this something that you, yourself, was guilty of in any church where you were a leader, or did you come to discover

44:09

Biblical Eldership through your exegesis of the Word before you were even an elder yourself?

44:15

Well, I think the thing that really provoked me it was something

44:21

I was, you know, seeing that boy, you're reading the Bible about the elders. In fact, when you look at the new

44:28

Biblical Eldership, you'll see all the passages I go through. You'll just be shocked at how little was said about this.

44:37

But when I was in seminary, we had a course by a professor who presented a typical senior pastor, and he has his deacons, and he went through all this.

44:52

And so I asked a question. I have this in the first chapter of Biblical Eldership. I asked the question, what do you do with all the verses on plural eldership?

45:02

And his response was immediate, that doesn't mean anything. And this is somebody who believed in the inerrancy of Scripture?

45:14

Well, I think he was, I won't mention his denomination, but he was so strongly a denominational man that when this topic came up which contradicted everything he said, he just said, it doesn't mean anything.

45:28

A lot of verses don't mean anything. Well, I didn't say it, but I thought, what means something, your non -existing verses on the clergy and laity?

45:37

I mean, something as fundamental as that, it's not even in the

45:42

New Testament. What you see in the New Testament is a very strong brotherhood, sisterhood.

45:48

I mean, it's almost paragraph after paragraph in Paul's letters over 250 times, he says brothers, and what he means by that is sisters too, family members.

46:00

So that really provoked me. And then I started to be more vocal in that class, and so people started talking about it at the school, and most people agreed it's heresy.

46:12

And this is not a biblical thing. So I said, you know what? I'm going to see if I can do anything about this.

46:21

And so, right from the beginning, I'm not exactly sure how this came about, I said,

46:26

I'm going to make it a Bible exposition. We're just going to go through every passage, and you know, there's only really two passages on the deacons, one with any substance, and yet everything was built around the deacons.

46:42

And there's no passage on the singular pastor. Now most people couldn't even believe that, but it's true.

46:50

Read your Bible, there is no single king pastor with his lay helpers, his lay people.

46:58

When you tell people that, you go, oh no, no, that's not true. Yes, it is true. It's a fact that we do not have that.

47:05

You go to the second century with Ignatius, and there you have the overseer.

47:12

You do not even have the name church without the overseer. There is no baptism or Lord's Supper without the overseer.

47:20

Now most people would translate that bishop. That actually means something different. They would say without the bishop.

47:28

So very quickly in the second century, there were these changes that developed until greater and greater power were placed in the hands of priests and bishops, even dispensing salvation over the next thousand years.

47:44

It got farther and farther away from the simple revolutionary teaching of Jesus on servanthood, humility, love, and brotherly accord.

47:58

Those four things. The teachings of Jesus are revolutionary. It turns the pyramid, the leadership pyramid, upside down.

48:06

The leader is the servant, and you are brothers. You're not to be like the

48:11

Pharisees. You're not to be like the Gentile kings. You're not to be like that. Well, what happened over the next 500 to 1 ,000 years is they said, wow, this is much better going back to the

48:22

Roman type of ruler and the kings of the rulers, and of course of the adopting the

48:30

Old Testament priesthood and the Moses model. And so, consequently, everything gets reversed and everything

48:38

Jesus taught is reinterpreted to mean what he said it didn't mean.

48:43

So, it really gets you quite sick to your stomach, but this is a very broken, sinful, imperfect world.

48:52

So, what I did right from the beginning was make it a careful Bible exegesis.

48:58

Every passage is carefully gone through. So now in the new biblical eldership, I'm even more cautious to each passage.

49:07

I read all the commentaries. I work out of the Greek text. I try to let my very best, by the grace of God, let the text talk to us because it's the word of the

49:17

Lord. It's the Spirit of God who is speaking to us. Let the text speak to you.

49:22

Don't read into your denomination or your big highfalutin thoughts. So, I think it's about as carefully written.

49:32

In fact, this is the unique thing of this book, Chris. There is no other book in this area of church government and elders or deacons that exegetes every passages.

49:41

So, I've read all these books when they come out. I buy them and just read them real quickly. The problem with almost all these books, it's human wisdom, their opinion, their preference, the way they do it.

49:54

In fact, some of these books, which are big deal books, they don't, they might put a scripture reference in, but there's no struggling with the text.

50:05

There's no dealing with the text that disagree with what they say. It's just absent. So, I dismiss those books as just personal opinion.

50:13

So, I've tried by the grace of God not to give you my opinion, which is worthless, but to carefully expound and that would be something

50:24

I very much joy do and have some ability in expounding scripture and trying to be a good exegete.

50:32

I read all the big writers, you know, the big exegetes. You learn a lot reading the commentaries of how to do exegetes.

50:40

So, that's it, Chris. Praise God. Let's see. We have an anonymous listener and the anonymous listener says,

50:53

I am in a fundamentalist church that takes very seriously the fact that the word of God is perfect and that there are no errors in the

51:04

Bible. And the thing that I cannot understand is that this church has a one pastor rule and it seems so clear from the scriptures that this is not the model that has been provided for us in the perfect, inerrant, and God -breathed word for church government.

51:28

And the text that immediately jumps out at me is Acts 14 .23,

51:34

Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and with prayer and fasting committed them to the

51:41

Lord in whom they had put their trust. It seems very obvious that each church had elders, plural, appointed to them.

51:52

I don't understand how somebody who takes a strict view of the inerrancy of scripture could overlook that and actually violate that.

52:00

Very interesting passage you brought up because that was the first passage I dealt with, Acts 14 .23,

52:07

and I can remember right now somewhere around 1973 -74 when

52:12

I started this book, I started with Acts 14 .23, read all the commentaries, wrote on it, read any articles

52:22

I could on it, and this would be the perfect place for Paul to establish a ruler of the synagogue, which he knew about the one -man rule, for each of these new churches, but he didn't.

52:35

Then at the end of Paul's life, he writes to Titus, and this is very important to get.

52:41

It answers a number of questions. He says to Titus, appoint elders.

52:47

Now, here's what gets important. As I directed you. Notice that word directed.

52:53

It's a strong term. Commanded, charged, ordered you. People say the

52:58

Bible never mandates this. Well, there it is right there. Open your eyes. See, we're not looking at the text.

53:06

The text says, as I required you, appoint elders, plural, in each town, and then he goes on to say they must be of this kind of character.

53:18

You don't just appoint elders. The elders must be of this nature. Husband of one wife, above reproach, etc.

53:26

So, at the very beginning of Paul's ministry, at the very end of his ministry, we have a consistent pattern in all kinds of different cultural backgrounds of the plurality of shepherd elders.

53:40

Now, they're not board elders. They're shepherd elders, because Peter and Paul, the two great apostles, tell the elders what to do.

53:50

Shepherd the church of God. Shepherd the flock of God. There it is, right? Black and white.

53:57

You've got to play with the text and say, well, what he meant is to speak to... See, here's the big thing they said.

54:03

There's always a way around it. You see, there were little house churches in every city, and each house church had one elder, and all those elders together would get together once a month and have a party, and that would be the eldership.

54:18

In fact, could you pick up, brother, right where you left off, because we have to go to our midway break. We could pick up right where you were mentioning the house churches.

54:27

Yes, okay. And please be patient with us, folks. The midway break is a bit long, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

54:35

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a long break in the middle of the show, because the

54:40

FCC requires of them to geographically localize this program to Lake City, Florida.

54:48

Please use this time wisely. Respond to our advertisers, and when you can't use money to respond to our advertisers by buying products or using services, please, at the very least, respond to our advertisers by thanking them for sponsoring this show.

55:04

That will go a long way to convince them that they are spending their money in a good place.

55:11

Also, send in your questions to Alexander Stroup, to chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

55:17

We'll be right back right after these messages. Music Attention all men in ministry leadership.

55:33

You're all invited to my friend Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon, Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m.

55:42

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, featuring me,

55:47

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, your keynote speaker. Not only will you enjoy a wonderful time of fellowship with your colleagues in ministry over a delicious meal, but you'll also receive dozens of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the

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United States and the United Kingdom, personally selected by Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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So if you're a pastor, an elder, a deacon, a parachurch leader, or any other man in ministry leadership, please register for the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon today by calling 631 -291 -7002, 631 -291 -7002, or by visiting ironsharpensironradio .com,

56:34

ironsharpensironradio .com. This is James White of Alpha Omega Ministries hoping to see you

56:39

Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania for Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon.

57:01

Hi, I'm Pete Hegseth, co -host of Fox & Friends Weekend. Now, I don't have to tell you, but American education, it's in a free fall, crumbling under the weight of a century of damage inflicted upon America's academic system.

57:15

The answer? It's called classical Christian education, a form of K -12 ed that's very distinct from the type of education most

57:24

Americans have received, myself included. And that's why I'm so excited to have been invited by my friends at Long Island's Grace Christian Academy to talk about this wonderful, growing movement and new approach rediscovered to education.

57:39

It's at 7 p .m. October 15th at the Marriott Hotel and Conference Center in Melville, New York. I'll also be signing copies of my

57:46

New York Times best -selling book, Battle for the American Mind, for the first 50 guests starting at 6 p .m.

57:53

Now, this is a fundraising event designed to raise money to help grow this type of education at a time when it is so desperately needed.

58:01

So please come ready to give and to learn about a way to stimulate academic revival in our great country.

58:08

You can purchase tickets for the event by visiting gcali .com and following the link to the gala event.

58:17

I hope to see you there. Getting a driver's license. Running a cash register.

58:22

Flipping burgers. Passing sixth grade. Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications.

58:31

But do you know what requires no training at all? Becoming a parent. My name is

58:36

A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent and host of its award -winning podcast. I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s.

58:45

And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

58:52

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

58:58

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

59:10

Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com Satan is the father of lies and spin.

59:23

And the mother of those lies is a devil. We are a government who has rejected God. We have especially been lied to these last two years and the

59:30

COVID panic has been one of the central mechanisms that our government has used to lie to us and grab more power.

59:36

Because Christians have not been reading their bibles, we are susceptible to lies and are weak in our ability to fight these lies.

59:42

God has given us his word to fight Satan and his lies. And we need to recover all of God's word, its serrated edge and all.

59:51

Mark your calendars for October 6th through 8th as we fight, laugh, and feast to the glory of God in Knoxville, Tennessee.

59:58

You'll be enlightened, edified, encouraged, and challenged by ten speakers on the theme

01:00:03

Lies, Propaganda, Storytelling, and the Serrated Edge covering various topics that address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

01:00:13

Speakers include Pastor Doug Wilson of Christ Church of Moscow, Idaho and the whole gang at the

01:00:18

Cross Politics show and podcast. For details, visit www .FLFnetwork

01:00:24

.com That's F for Fight, L for Laugh, F for Feast, Network .com

01:00:31

See you there October 6th through 8th in Knoxville, Tennessee. I'm Dr.

01:00:45

Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville -Presbyterian

01:00:52

Theological Seminary. Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the

01:00:57

Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

01:01:03

Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Moorcraft.

01:01:10

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

01:01:22

Dr. Moorcraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

01:01:33

For details on the eight -volume commentary go to westminstercommentary .com westminstercommentary .com

01:01:40

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com

01:01:50

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

01:01:57

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Anchored in Truth Ministries is the mission arm of Grace Like Church of the

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Shoals. Based in Alabama it supports missionaries in over 13 countries around the world.

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Anchored in Truth is in partnership with 36 church plants as well as radio stations theological seminaries and various programs for unreached people groups.

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With an aim to glorify God and reach the nations with the gospel it is a blessing to see how

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God has used Anchored in Truth in so many different contexts globally as well as locally.

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To find out more about this vital work worldwide visit anchoredintruth .org

01:02:55

Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York and also the host of the reformrookie .com

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website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do you can now find it on the

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Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time day or night.

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Truth is so hard to come by these days so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

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podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

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And finally if you're looking to worship in a Reformed Church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invidio and thanks for listening. I'm author

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01:08:00

Before I return to Alexander Strauch and our discussion on biblical eldership I just have to make a couple of brief very important announcements.

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01:09:57

It's ironsharpensironradio .com click support then click click to donate now. And last but not least if you are not a member of a biblically faithful doctrinally solid theologically sound

01:10:10

Christian church like Littleton Bible Chapel in Littleton, Colorado no matter where on the planet

01:10:17

Earth you live I may be able to help you find a church as I have done with many people in our audience spanning the globe

01:10:23

I have extensive lists of faithful churches all over the world and sometimes

01:10:29

I've even found churches for listeners in all parts of the globe that are only minutes away from their own home and there's a possibility

01:10:36

I can help you find a church as well no matter where you live so send me an email chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:10:43

and put I need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you can send in a question to Alexander Strauch on biblical eldership that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:10:53

give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence before I go to any of our listener questions and we have a number of them waiting for you

01:11:02

Alex but pick up where you left off you were talking about how there were house churches and there were elders in these churches and pick up exactly where you left off there yes how do you answer the fact that in every church in the new testament we see a plurality of leaders by the way any scholar it's pretty well agreed that's what the bible says one way to get around it is to say this you see there was a plurality in elders in the city of Ephesus but each local church had only one elder well first of all that's an example if you repeat something enough people will actually think it's fact but it's not fact it is pure guesswork it's theory why would there only have to be one elder per house church let's say you had 40 people in a house church you could easily have two elders or three

01:11:59

I've visited house churches that have three elders so why would it only have one elder well that's because they're looking for to find the king pastor and that's one way they do it but all the texts refer to a plurality of elders it's interesting reading the commentaries

01:12:20

I just saw this the other day in James 5 call the elders of the church if you're very sick and needing help well one commentator just turns the whole thing into a theory call your pastor when you're in trouble that's not what the text says see what

01:12:38

I mean Chris let the text talk don't tell it what you want it to say so that's one of the ways they get around the plurality of elders but I would have to say this to you in years of looking at different authors and that it's pretty well agreed by even the biggest names even people who are in the

01:13:00

Anglican church people in Baptist churches that are very very much on the one pastor and the deacons they admit no the

01:13:08

New Testament does teach that so it's not a big mystery anymore

01:13:15

Amen and in fact I am a Reformed Baptist and the vast majority of Reformed Baptists especially if they are confessional believe in not only the plurality but the parity of the elders and quite a number of them that I have met personally have said that before they even became

01:13:38

Reformed Baptist elders when they were in churches that were not Reformed Baptists they were convinced of the plurality and parity of the eldership from your book well

01:13:49

I'm glad to hear that in fact let me I'm going to read for you a spectacular commendation for your book that has been written by someone that has been a guest on my program a number of times and I think this may be the first time he's ever sent in a question to one of my guests his name he's a dear friend and he's a brilliant Christian named

01:14:22

Dr. Joseph Losardo pastor of Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey he's a resident of Teaneck, New Jersey and I usually don't give a full name of the listener when they write in but because I want to promote

01:14:38

Dr. Losardo's congregation I think so highly of it that I want to make sure I give his full name and even his website in a minute but he says about your book this was one of the most important and influential books

01:14:52

I have ever read whoa, that's a statement I first read this around 2001 it contains no secret mysteries and nothing particularly exciting just sound solid biblical teaching about church leadership it opened my eyes to the source of the abuse and tyranny that I witnessed in the modern church with its solitary unaccountable celebrity pastors this is a reason that the

01:15:22

Bible prescribes a plurality of elders and those who ignore this do so to their own danger and the danger of their flocks

01:15:32

God knows the human tendency to be corrupted by power and stardom if you're a member of a soul slash senior pastor led church do your pastor a favor get him this book and challenge him to read it anyone open to the truth will change their minds and reform their church leadership structure oh and yeah there's also a chance you'll end up being shut down you'll also be end up being shown the back door out and obviously that's a tragedy when churches don't listen to the scriptures and kick you out but here are his questions he has two of them and I'll give them to you one at a time are there any examples that stand out to Alexander of senior pastors following the

01:16:23

Moses model repenting and changing their leadership models after reading his book any interesting stories like do you have any anecdotes about that I can't right off hand think of one but I do know this that back in the 80's after biblical eldership first came out a number of people from the

01:16:46

Calvary chapels called me and in fact invited me to where they live and they were very concerned about their pastor almost completely burned out with very excellent men not being able to do much but give advice and when they read biblical eldership they said we should all be together in shepherding this thing not just everything's on you so because the pastor was in such poor physical and psychological thing it really got him to think so I went out to California spent some time with him and eventually this group had to leave the

01:17:24

Calvary chapels you know the Calvary chapels have many good things about them they're bible teaching but they're very very strong in the

01:17:32

Moses model and they don't tell you about the problems this creates where the

01:17:39

Moses puts the offering in one pocket and spends it out of the other pocket they have almost complete authority to do what they want well you get these young pastors with that kind of authority well as that brother says it goes to your head you're too tempted to fool with money because no one can question you over the years we've had a number of people from our church come from the

01:17:59

Calvary chapels and like I said I'm not putting them down because I do know that one of their strong points is their expositional bible teaching churches and they're very holy people they want to live for the

01:18:14

Lord but in this thing they are very wrong and numbers of people have suffered from this one man rule where there is no real life accountability and that is not good for anyone well thank you

01:18:29

Dr. Joseph Lassardo of Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey and let me give our listeners your website it is

01:18:36

B -O -L for Bread of Life fellowship .org B for bread

01:18:42

O for of L for life fellowship .org B -O -L fellowship .org

01:18:48

and Dr. Lassardo has been kind enough I am going to I am giving away a limited numbers a limited number of copies of Biblical Eldership by Alexander Strzok to listeners who submit questions and Dr.

01:19:04

Lassardo has been kind enough since he already has this book to let another listener who sends in a question receive his copy for free and by the way

01:19:13

I think I forgot to mention to our anonymous listener earlier that if you email me your full name and full mailing address you will also receive a free copy of Biblical Eldership by Alexander Strzok thanks to the generosity of Lewis and Roth Publishers and also thanks to the generosity of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who will actually be shipping that to you at no cost to you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:19:43

We have Chris sure I was asked a question about from dear brother about a specific pastor that has repented but when we go to these big conferences like Gospel Coalition John Piper's Conference MacArthur's Conference we go to all these big major conferences to have an exhibit here all day people are coming up to us and telling us probably hundreds because in our last conference we had over 2000 people sign up hundreds came and said no we have moved to eldership so I don't have a lot of specific stories but I do have hundreds of people who have said to me we have moved to this way of governing our church so yes

01:20:28

I have too but I don't recall any of the men that I have spoken with who have told me about how

01:20:36

God used your book to guide them into a biblical understanding of the plurality of elders and the parity of elders that came from a dictatorship type thing that was happening these men just seemed to realize that the one pastor model wasn't the biblical way and they were courageous enough to make sure that the polity of the church changed and I almost forgot to read

01:21:02

Dr. Lussardo's second question it's a good thing I looked at his email again his second question is what does

01:21:09

Alexander think of churches with a genuine plurality who refer to a first among equals with the title of senior pastor does the title itself set up an expectation of a single man at the top very good question

01:21:24

I have never been comfortable with senior associate assistant pastor titles but what have you to say about this yes well

01:21:34

I would not like this term senior pastor so but let me back up let's go back to the scriptures 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st 1st

01:22:50

Now, we go to 1 Timothy 5, 17 and 18, a crucial verse to understand accurately.

01:22:59

There we see there are elders who labor, very strong word, in preaching and teaching.

01:23:07

Not all elders can or want to or are gifted to labor in preaching and teaching.

01:23:14

So among the elders there are those who give themselves in a fuller way to preaching and teaching.

01:23:21

And then there's those who, in leadership, do the same. Now, here's the thing to catch.

01:23:27

There's no special name given to that person. He's not called the senior pastor, the lead pastor.

01:23:33

He's called the teacher, like all the other elders. They all have to be able to teach to certain levels.

01:23:41

Now, you have the same thing with Peter and the 12 apostles, which, by the way, can be a very good model for an eldership.

01:23:48

You have 12 apostles, all equally apostles. No one's a more of an apostle than another apostle. There's no senior apostle.

01:23:54

There's no apostle with his team. What you have is Peter, among the 12, is definitely the lead speaker.

01:24:05

He's the mouthpiece of the group. He's the one that's always speaking. And when it comes to Acts, the 11 stood up with Peter and he speaks.

01:24:14

He's the natural speaker, the evangelist, but he gets no special name. I want you to notice that.

01:24:20

He's not senior apostle. So I think we should...

01:24:25

There's something important in this. I think it comes back to the holy brotherhood, which is very strongly emphasized in the

01:24:33

New Testament. We are all brothers and sisters. We're all equally brothers and sisters. Jesus said you are brothers.

01:24:41

So I don't like the term senior pastor. In our church, if people come up to me, they say, oh, are you the senior pastor?

01:24:49

I say, no, I am one of seven pastors. I'm not the senior pastor. We govern the church together as brothers.

01:24:57

And so I think you do not have any kind of biblical precedence for using these terms.

01:25:04

So one of our brothers now does, like I said, 70 % of Sunday morning teaching.

01:25:11

We don't want him to preach every Sunday. The reason is it really helps him last longer.

01:25:18

He's got a little family, gives him a chance to do other reading and get caught up. And we have many other very good preachers.

01:25:25

Our people like it that way, that we hear from some of the other elders. And some of them are very dynamic.

01:25:31

If you're not gifted for the pulpit ministry or that kind of situation, you shouldn't be up there.

01:25:38

It just hurts things. And remember, teachers come in all colors, shapes, and sizes. Some are great in small groups, one -on -one, like the man who discipled me and my friends.

01:25:49

You wouldn't want him on the platform. But as a group of young men together for two hours, he was perfect.

01:25:56

So people come in colors, shapes, and sizes. So, no, I don't think you have any scriptural precedence for singling one elder as the pastor or senior pastor.

01:26:08

Now, if you are going to give a name to someone who's full -time, serving that way and doing more of the preaching, then come up with a name that's going to be closer to the scriptures than senior pastor.

01:26:21

Because I always say, if they're the senior pastor, who are the other elders? Right. So basically, you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, in summary, that in the scriptures, all elders have equal authority, but they have different gifts that lead them to function differently.

01:26:42

Exactly. And that's the beauty of eldership. Every elder contributes something different.

01:26:47

So, for example, one of our elders loves evangelism. Another is very heavy, gives an enormous amount of time to our missionaries.

01:26:56

We have others more doctrinally oriented, love systematic theology books and reading big books.

01:27:02

Others would go to sleep. They all must be scripturally trained because one of the qualifications is

01:27:08

Titus 1 -9, able to instruct in sound doctrine and refute the false teacher.

01:27:15

Every elder coming on the eldership must have a certain amount of knowledge and ability to teach truth.

01:27:23

Now, this brings me to a very important point, Chris, and that is this, where elderships fail is that they don't train their elders.

01:27:31

No one becomes an elder in a church without our training for several years. And we want to make sure that they've read a systematic theology book, they can answer all basic questions.

01:27:41

We have a website, by the way, biblicaleldership .com. You can go to, and in that website, we have over 250 15 -minute videos.

01:27:51

And in there, there is a list of questions that every elder should be able to ask and a list of verses they must know.

01:27:59

They must see them and know them on men and women's roles in the church, charismatic gifts, the deity of Christ, the way of salvation through faith, through Christ.

01:28:11

We have all these verses listed. They need to know those verses. They can't be foreign to them.

01:28:17

So no one becomes an elder in our church, and this is why I think most churches are failing. They bring on men that are actually not biblically qualified, doctrinally qualified, and then they wonder why it doesn't work.

01:28:30

Well, that's because you've got unqualified men. Well, what I hear from many men, which I heard yesterday,

01:28:36

I inherited this eldership, and not one of the men are qualified.

01:28:43

Well, then people write me and say, the eldership doesn't work. Well, yeah, no, it doesn't work, not if you don't do it right.

01:28:52

We have a faithful listener to this program and also a generous financial supporter of this program every month,

01:29:01

Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, who says, greetings, brothers. Growing up Southern Baptist, we had congregational rule with a pastor and deacons.

01:29:11

Until I heard Dr. John MacArthur, I didn't even know what elder rule was, and through his ministry was introduced to your book on eldership.

01:29:21

Now I attend a Reformed Baptist church, and we have elder rule, and we hold to the doctrines of grace.

01:29:27

It's wonderful when we do things God's way. My question is, do you know how the

01:29:33

Southern Baptists and other denominations got away from biblical eldership? I know the

01:29:38

Southern Baptist Convention started out as Calvinists. All right, very good question.

01:29:45

So I know a number of leading brothers among the Southern Baptists, and I was just with Benjamin Merkle, who's written a number of good books.

01:29:56

He's a leading Southern Baptist, and we had lunch one year ago in October, and he said to me, your book on biblical eldership has caused a genuine revival among Southern Baptists.

01:30:09

Many of our key leaders, like Tom Schreiner, Mark Dever, all believe in biblical eldership, and they work with an eldership.

01:30:18

It's been a revival in our movement, and we wondered why we got away from it. Spurgeon himself had a whole team of elders that dealt with the spiritual life of the church, and they had deacons who dealt with the material, the poor, the needy.

01:30:37

And so it's like anything else. If you don't have people enforcing your beliefs, you lose your beliefs.

01:30:44

So they did not enforce these teachings, and, you know, we always go the easiest road, follow the stream.

01:30:51

And what's the easiest road is to have one man run the church. He's in charge. It's not so hard on the rest of us, and then you have a group of deacons, which in some churches can fight the pastor to the death, and others, they just do what they're told.

01:31:05

They're all different. So there has been a revival of this topic, and I would have to say there's a real revival of the doctrines of grace through Mark Dever and Tom Schreiner and Al Mohler and these men that stand for these doctrines.

01:31:23

I would say all of Southern Seminary probably stands for the doctrines of grace. I'm trying to think of some of the other professors there

01:31:32

I know that do, are very strong on election by grace.

01:31:38

So I think we need to realize whatever doctrines we have, whatever things we preciously love, if we are not cautious, we will lose them.

01:31:49

And there must be people there that will enforce and make sure things change.

01:31:56

And so that's why you have Acts 20 again. What does he say? Guard the flock.

01:32:02

Wolves are coming, people from within, and they're teaching twisted things.

01:32:09

They take Scripture and they twist it, and they're so good at twisting it, you don't even know what they're saying anymore.

01:32:15

You can't untie the knots. So you must be, Acts 20, 31, you must be alert, awake.

01:32:24

Because night and day, Paul says, I warned you, every one of you, wolves are coming.

01:32:33

So you have to be awake. That's why I believe in the ministry of books.

01:32:39

When you have good books, you write your beliefs down. You have a way of perpetuating your beliefs.

01:32:45

Publish or perish, if you don't, that's another reason I wrote Biblical Eldership. If we don't put this down in writing, and now, of course, we can use the websites and podcasts, which, by the way, on the new

01:32:59

Biblical Eldership, we're going to do a podcast on each chapter, so I'm able to walk people through the chapter, why

01:33:06

I did it, what I thought about this or that. I think it'll be great, great training. In fact, our website,

01:33:12

BiblicalEldership .com, there is no other website like it. It's all free.

01:33:19

Anyway, I think it's a natural tendency to drift away from sound doctrine. Grady, you have won a free copy of the book we have been discussing,

01:33:29

Biblical Eldership, by Alexander Strauch. Make sure that we have your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship that out to you.

01:33:38

And once again, we thank Lewis and Roth for their generosity in providing us a limited number of books for our listeners today.

01:33:47

We have Thomas in West Seislet, New York, who says, I know that a lot of Reformed Baptists love your book, but I was wondering,

01:33:57

I probably missed it earlier on in the program when you were describing your church, but how is

01:34:04

Littleton Bible Chapel of Littleton, Colorado, compared to a Reformed Baptist church?

01:34:10

Well, I would say we wouldn't have any real disagreements. Our doctrine of grace is the same, and plurality of elders,

01:34:19

Bible teaching. We have the Lord's Supper every Sunday after the sermon. I don't know if that would be different or not.

01:34:26

That's actually a growing, that is growing in popularity amongst

01:34:32

Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians that I've been in contact with.

01:34:38

I'll tell you something interesting, Chris. When new people come to our church, one of the things they say, we can't believe how worshipful it is.

01:34:47

After the sermon, we have two different brothers that will introduce the bread, introduce the cup, and music is playing while the cup is going.

01:34:57

It's so worshipful. It's so Christ -centered, and it's so biblical because everything we know, the early church, the

01:35:09

Lord's Supper was a major part, Acts 2 .42, major part of the service together.

01:35:14

They gathered as God's people to remember the chief mission of Jesus Christ, his death upon the cross, substitutionary, penal death upon the cross.

01:35:26

Every week as we gather together, we bring that forward and worship. And then right after that, we have some singing, good

01:35:34

Christ -centered, redemptive songs. That's one of the comments we get. And yes, you're right.

01:35:40

I'm seeing more and more churches of different stripes. Bring that into their worship and wondering, why did we leave this out?

01:35:47

You know, some churches just put it Sunday night once a month. Talk about sidelining something that's directly stated by our

01:35:56

Lord. I mean, I don't know what you need else. But tradition, changing church tradition is almost impossible.

01:36:03

And yes, you can lose your head if you try to change church. And change itself is hard.

01:36:10

You have to be very skilled. And that's why I give out thousands, tens of thousands of copies of Agape Leadership, The Marvelous Life of Robert Chapman, Spurgeon said, the saintliest man

01:36:22

I ever met. And we ought to give that out to your listeners. It's only 75 pages. And I want to guarantee, if it's not one of the most spiritually inspiring books you ever read,

01:36:35

Chris will come to your house and return all your money to you. We have

01:36:45

Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says,

01:36:51

If you believe in an elder rule, I'm just wondering, where does the voice of the congregation come in?

01:36:59

Do they have any vote in important matters? Yes, great question. First of all, congregational participation in all decisions or doctrinal changes is absolutely essential.

01:37:13

And here's why. When you go to the New Testament, just check this out. The one and other commands, the body of Christ, the family of God.

01:37:23

Paul writes to all the members. He doesn't write just to the leaders. He writes to all the members. And all are responsible for the life of the church, for the care of one another.

01:37:34

And that's why you have all these beautiful one another commands. So, our elders practice congregational participation in all decisions that affect them, that they would want to be a part of.

01:37:47

They don't want to be a part of light bulbs and paying the parking lot. They have no interest to them.

01:37:53

But anything of interest to them, doctrinally, scripturally, yes. We usually use surveys.

01:38:00

Now, in saying that, it's not the same thing as one member, one vote.

01:38:06

That's where the fighting starts. So, you have a big decision to make. And everyone's real hot in the collar.

01:38:14

And so, you have one vote. You're going to win. The vote's going to win. And you have secret ballots and all this.

01:38:21

We don't have any of that. So, let's just say we're going to make a major change. We will send a survey out to every member, actually to anyone who attends regularly.

01:38:31

And we want their input. We want their name on it. We don't take you without your name. We don't want it.

01:38:36

We want your comments. A decision will be made by the elders in participation with the congregation.

01:38:43

So, it's like Acts 15. The elders and the apostles with the church made this decision.

01:38:51

We want to be able to say with the church. So, a decision will be made based on reason, on facts, on the congregation's input.

01:39:01

We will know exactly what the congregation says, what it's divided over.

01:39:07

Certain members certainly get a greater input into us because they're faithful.

01:39:12

They're there. People that show up once a year, they don't get much credence from us.

01:39:18

But in the congregational system, you may not have been in church in a year. But as long as your name's on the register, you're a voting member.

01:39:25

And that's what causes the fighting. They call up everyone they can think of, call their children and everyone.

01:39:31

Now, we need your vote. Get your vote. And it just tears the place apart. So, yes, strong congregational participation.

01:39:42

We want the congregation to own and support the decision, such as starting a new church, which was one of our last ones.

01:39:54

We need the congregation behind us. We need the congregation's mind and wisdom and the spirit working in the whole body.

01:40:03

And we have in writing all their comments. And those comments will help us make a reasonable decision with the best information we have.

01:40:14

And we can say the elders with the congregation have decided on this. So that's how I see it.

01:40:20

And again, I take you back to how Paul and Peter write to the congregation. They address all members of the congregation.

01:40:28

All are seen as responsible for one another. Praise God. And by the way, I may have forgotten to tell

01:40:34

Thomas earlier, but both Thomas and you, Bobby, have both won a free copy of Biblical Eldership.

01:40:41

Make sure I have your full mailing addresses so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship those books out to you at no charge to you or to us.

01:40:50

And once again, we thank Lewis and Roth Publishing for providing us with these free copies.

01:40:57

We're going to go to our final break right now. It will be shorter than the last break. If you have a question, please send it in as quickly as you can because we are running out of time.

01:41:08

I already know that I would love to have Brother Strauch back on the program, not only to address this subject in a

01:41:15

Part 2 form, but also his Acts 20 book. I think he's been absolutely remarkable as a guest.

01:41:22

But if you have a question for today, try to send it in as quickly as possible to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

01:41:29

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Pete Hegseth, co -host of Fox and Friends Weekend.

01:41:37

Now, I don't have to tell you, but American education, it's in a free fall, crumbling under the weight of a century of damage inflicted upon America's academic system.

01:41:47

The answer? It's called classical Christian education, a form of K -12 ed that's very distinct from the type of education most

01:41:55

Americans have received, myself included. And that's why I'm so excited to have been invited by my friends at Long Island's Grace Christian Academy to talk about this wonderful, growing movement and new approach rediscovered to education.

01:42:11

It's at 7 p .m. October 15th at the Marriott Hotel and Conference Center in Melville, New York. I'll also be signing copies of my

01:42:18

New York Times bestselling book, Battle for the American Mind, for the first 50 guests, starting at 6 p .m.

01:42:25

Now, this is a fundraising event designed to raise money to help grow this type of education at a time when it is so desperately needed.

01:42:32

So please come ready to give and to learn about a way to stimulate academic revival in our great country.

01:42:40

You can purchase tickets for the event by visiting GCALI, G -C -A -L -I dot com, and following the link to the gala event.

01:42:48

I hope to see you there. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:42:58

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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and co -founder of New York Apologetics, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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Historical Bible Society, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and the

01:43:52

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina, and the

01:44:02

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, and the

01:44:12

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

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Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:44:33

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:44:50

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:44:57

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

01:45:02

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of government which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:45:19

Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end from which we strive is the glory of God.

01:45:25

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:45:39

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:45:49

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:45:57

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

01:46:02

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

01:46:16

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

01:46:26

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

01:46:35

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

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Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

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Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

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For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

01:47:11

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

01:47:20

That's liyfc .org. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

01:47:37

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

01:47:47

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

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No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post -Tenebrous

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Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand, from the cutting, to the pleating of corners, to the perimeter stitching.

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Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my

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Nestle All in 28th edition, with a navy blue goatskin inside liner, and the electric blue goatskin from a

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French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

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Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications, and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

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For more details on Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to PTLBibleRebinding .com.

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That's PTLBibleRebinding .com. I'm Dr.

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Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

01:49:31

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:49:49

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:50:21

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:50:45

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

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Daniel P. Buttafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

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To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

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Buttafuoco demonstrating the reliability of Scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

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King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

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This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

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Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

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Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

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You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org

01:52:33

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Welcome back.

01:52:40

Men in ministry leadership, don't forget, if you want to attend the free Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon two weeks from today,

01:52:48

Thursday, September 22nd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m., at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, please send me an email to chrisorenson at gmail .com

01:52:57

and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line and give us the name and location of your church when registering.

01:53:05

The speaker is Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and please make note that the following Sunday, September 24th, also at the

01:53:13

Church of the Living Christ, Dr. White will be debating an advocate of what has become known as confessional bibliology.

01:53:23

He basically is defending the idea, Dr. Peter Van Cleek, that is, is defending the idea that the textus receptus is equal to the

01:53:33

New Testament autographs and Dr. James R. White is opposing that view. This event is open to everyone, men, women, and children, and it's absolutely free, unlike the

01:53:44

Pastor's Luncheon. The debate will be held at 4 p .m., Saturday, September 24th, and for more details, go to churchofthelivingchrist .cc,

01:53:56

churchofthelivingchrist .cc. We are now back with Brother Alexander Strauch and we have an anonymous listener who says,

01:54:08

I have more pastor friends that are Presbyterian than in other denominations.

01:54:15

I love my Presbyterian brethren and agree with them on nearly everything that they teach, and I know that a number of them also promote and love your book on biblical eldership, but I'm assuming that they must love it so much only in regard to the functioning of the plurality and parity of elders in the local congregation.

01:54:36

They also believe in things that violate that, in my opinion, and I say this lovingly and respectfully, but I do not believe in synods and Presbyteries.

01:54:49

Can you respond to that concept of church government and the excuse that I seem to repeatedly get from my

01:54:58

Presbyterian friends is that this is what we need to replace the

01:55:04

Council of Jerusalem. Yes, however, it's a complete misreading of the

01:55:10

Council in Jerusalem. This meeting was called by the church in Antioch to force

01:55:17

Jerusalem to deal with false teachers who had come from Jerusalem.

01:55:23

So Antioch pushed the issue of Gentile conversion needing to be circumcised back to Jerusalem from where the mischief came.

01:55:36

There's no evidence that this was a yearly meeting. It's a very ad hoc meeting with apostles and elders from Jerusalem answering the question of Gentile salvation.

01:55:49

Very important meeting, no question about it, but there's not enough evidence there to create courts above the local church.

01:55:59

It's reading way too much into the passage. Well, thank you, Anonymous, and you have also won a free copy of Biblical Eldership if you give us your full name and mailing address off the air, obviously through an email.

01:56:13

Well, I want you, Brother Strauch, to have at least two minutes of uninterrupted time to summarize what you most want to say to our listeners today.

01:56:23

Well, first of all, thank you, Chris, and these questions that came in were target questions.

01:56:30

I mean, they were really central, not just little things like how long does an elder, how long can an elder last before he has to get off the board.

01:56:42

These were really fundamental questions, and I really appreciate it. What I'd like to say is that I have a number of other books that talk about the spirit of the church, which should be four things that all come from our

01:56:56

Lord, and that is humility, servanthood, brotherly unity, brotherhood, and love.

01:57:06

So in the first chapter of this new Biblical Eldership, it's also in the old one,

01:57:12

I hit really hard on those statements of Jesus where he redefines leadership for us, but we keep going back to the

01:57:22

Greco -Roman style of leadership, and we keep going back to the Old Testament priesthood style.

01:57:29

I mean, that's 2 ,000 years of church history, and that's why we've got all the monster denominations with priests and bishops and cardinals.

01:57:39

So I would just simply say, let the Lord Jesus Christ be your guide.

01:57:45

We don't need church history to be our guide or authoritative guide, which by the way, many of our own brothers feel that the

01:57:54

Holy Spirit of God led the church to go through all these things the first 500 years.

01:58:00

Now why it has to stop at 500 years, I don't know, but they will say for 500 years after the first century, the

01:58:07

Holy Spirit led to bishops and priests and all these human works that became part of being a

01:58:16

Christian and the church being even more important than Christ.

01:58:22

That's all human tradition, and we can go to the direct source,

01:58:29

Jesus Christ's words. That's where I want to go because that's the pure truth.

01:58:35

Jesus is Lord. He's the head of the church. None of these other people are the head of the church.

01:58:41

In fact, they just cause a lot of confusion, it seems to me. So you have your Bible. You can go to your

01:58:47

Bible, and I would say this to you. The Bible is sufficient to guide you in your church polity and in your marriage and in everything you do.

01:58:58

The problem is we don't know it enough or trust it enough. One of the things I love about the

01:59:03

Bible, how it all interconnects, that's a beautiful thing to me. The more you know the Bible, the more you see how it all interconnects together, and we just don't trust it enough.

01:59:15

Well, I want to leave our listeners with your websites, BiblicalEldership .com,

01:59:20

BiblicalEldership .com, and don't forget about the website for the

01:59:26

Littleton Bible Chapel in Littleton, Colorado, LittletonBibleChapel .org,

01:59:32

LittletonBibleChapel .org. I want to thank you so much for being an extraordinary guest, as I knew you would be. I want to thank all of our listeners, especially those who wrote in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater