September 8, 2022 Show with Alexander Strauch on “Biblical Eldership”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity

living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this

eighth day of September 2022 and Quite a

historic day as well as we have all just recently heard

of the death of Queen Elizabeth and We can only hope

that her profession of faith in Christ was legitimate

and There I have heard Some quotes by her

and I don't know if she actually wrote them but she did.

She did say at least in writing on a number of occasions things that would lead us to believe that she

possessed genuine faith, but We can only hope that was the case.

She she died at 96 years of age on this day and her son

Became Britain's new monarch King Charles the third.

But that is not the topic of our discussion today.

I am thrilled that we have for the very first time on the program somebody that

I have been wanting to interview for years and I remember on a couple of previous

attempts to Book him as a guest in the program.

There was a conflict scheduling that prevented it from happening.

Odds timing is always perfect and we have him on today.

I'm speaking of none other than Alexander Strout.

Who has served in the leadership and teaching ministry of little Littleton Bible Chapel of

Littleton, Colorado for nearly 50 years and he has taught in more than 25

countries and whose book translated into over 30 languages and who has made an

impact on churches globally through the ministry of biblical eldership .com.

Today we are going to be addressing his classic work greatly beloved

by many Biblical eldership.

An urgent call to restore biblical church leadership.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron trip and Zion radio

Alexander Strouk.

Amen.

Yes, and by the way, I have to make sure I forgot to ask you before we were on the air.

Am I pronouncing your last name correctly Strouk?

You did a wonderful job.

Okay, great well praise God.

Well, why don't you let our listeners know something about Littleton Bible Chapel of Littleton, Colorado?

Well first I want with an honorary chaplain to the Queen and

Said that she writes.

Amen man who knows her.

And was the chaplain to a man again.

Amen.

Well, that is very good to hear and So tell us something about Littleton Bible Chapel of Littleton,

Colorado.

Yes.

We're in Littleton, Colorado.

Just one

of the

suburbs of

Denver or South suburb and

maybe about 70 ,000 people

doing very very well.

Seven elders.

One of them is full -time.

We used to have two full -time but that person had to leave and

Three a

loving church.

Well, praise God and I

want to give our listeners the.

The website if you are Visiting Littleton, Colorado or if you live anywhere

near there, or if you have friend family friends and loved ones in or near there go to

Littleton Bible Chapel org.

Littleton Bible Chapel org and God willing we will be

Reminding you of that website toward the end of the program.

And I just want to also take this time to thank

Lewis and Roth publishing for over the years being

extremely generous to the Iron Trump and Zion Radio free

pastors luncheons.

Several years ago Lewis and Roth who publishes my

guests classic work Biblical eldership an urgent call to restore biblical church leadership

and other books They have been kind enough in years past to donate

copies of biblical eldership for every single pastor attending my pastors luncheons

and this year they have been kind enough to donate one of

the other books they have brought into print.

And this book, I'm excited to Not only

give out to the the pastors attending but sinking my teeth into it once I get my own

copy and hopefully Getting an interview in the future with

Brother Strouk on this Other book that is not the discussion of our show today

but if you could to whet the appetite of our listeners, especially perhaps even Pastors

listening who are going to be attending my free iron trip and Zion radio pastors luncheon on

September 22nd.

Tell us about acts 20 fierce wolves are coming guard the flock.

Yes.

It's a book.

I'm very excited about Chris and here's why here you have

if you

there's

two, but

then you

would go to sleep.

If You are suffering from insomnia, there are books that

are guaranteed to put you to sleep.

It has been my burden for many years to do a full Bible exposition with much

practical application to this amazing one -of -a -kind passage in the New Testament.

There is nothing else like it where you have the great apostle exhorting

and Commanding the elders what to do because he is leaving and they are not going to see him again.

So he tells us his insight into what he did and he now wants them to do the same

thing such as teach the whole Council of God and guard the church.

Wolves are coming and they're even coming from within the church.

Well, that's the whole history of the Church of Jesus Christ.

So it's actually an apostolic Prophetic statement of the future wolves are

coming and from within your own myths men will arise speaking perverted twisted

things to draw away the Disciples.

FF so Chris why we don't have five ten books on this from different perspectives.

I don't know.

It's a big lack.

So I'm very excited about this book and If people are interested in this book

and would read it.

You just let me know we may be able to find some free copies.

Praise God.

I am I am so honored to be able to Distribute this book to the men at the

luncheon as I said, and I'm sure they'll be even more thrilled to receive them.

And I haven't even read it yet, but knowing of the high

-caliber Biblical literacy the gifts that God has given you in

regard to exegeting this the scriptures.

Properly after having read Biblical eldership an urgent call to restore

biblical church leadership many years ago.

And also the book that you did on the diaconate.

You're a blessed brother, and I'm very confident this book on acts 20 is going to be

equally as important and We have a we have a tradition here in iron sharpens iron

radio whenever we have a first -time guest on the program we have that guest give a summary of

his or her salvation testimony and That would include the kind of religious

atmosphere if any in which you were raised the kind of providential Circumstances our Sovereign Lord

raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you so I would love to hear your story.

Well, I was raised in a non -christian family and My

dad mom did not go to.

My mom was Roman Catholic never went to church and my dad was some kind of Protestant.

But he never went to church, but we had to as teenagers and young people.

Adolescents go to church because my dad said it's bad luck.

If you don't go to church when you're young you need to get baptized in Christian when you're young.

After that after 18, you don't ever have to go again.

But you gotta you don't want.

I didn't want any more bad luck being raised in Newark, New Jersey.

So we went to a church, but it was a liberal church.

I never heard the gospel.

So a friend of mine, I was about 11 years of age and I loved fishing

like almost every day go fishing where we live we could get a stream and Somehow I fell in

the water every day.

My mother say how do you get wet all the time?

I don't know.

It must be a skill I have but anyway, my friend said to me I'm going to a camp in New

York State and they have wonderful fishing.

Can you come so I asked my parents?

I said, can I go to this camp called Pine Bush Bible camp?

No, I didn't even know what that meant a Bible camp and we had to bring a Bible.

Well, we didn't have a Bible.

So we bought a Bible.

So I went to this camp.

I had all my fishing gear with me.

There was wonderful fishing there that I would have to say you'd be catching fish every 30

seconds.

It was marvelous.

Anyway, the very first time I heard the gospel Christ died for my

sins.

I am a sinner.

I need a Savior.

I need the rebirth to become a child of God, you know, Chris.

I had no resistance to it.

I just knew when I that is true.

And so I responded to the gospel.

Literally the first time I heard it.

I was like fruit ripe fruit.

You just picked off the.

Anyway, I was born again 1956 July 1956.

Went home and that year did nothing spirit.

I went to my church.

It was nothing there zero.

Went back to camp the next year we dedicated myself to the Lord.

I knew I was saved the first time but when I get home, I'd fall back in with the crowd.

You know boys like to go in the woods and smoke and do stupid things and that's what I was doing.

And if again same thing happened, I rededicated my life to the Lord went back

home.

Nothing happened that whole year.

Then the third year I was 13 now I went to camp and there was a man there said

now what are you doing for your spiritual life?

I said, I don't know what to do.

So he said I'm gonna come to your house every Friday night.

Ask your parents if that's okay by that time.

My brother was there and two or three other friends were joining me we're all fishermen and

Third year when I was 13 every Friday night this man

came to my house and we had the Island Bible Club and by that time

we were getting our friends to come and It was a wonderful time of spiritual

growth which shows you the importance of Discipleship, we had scripture memory.

We had to read the Bible.

We sang songs.

We had sword drills.

We had Bible lessons and then that man very Sacrificially and Chris there are millions of

Christians like this Sunday school teachers camp to camp Counselors that help people

no one knows their name.

But there are millions of them all over the world Discipling people very humbly.

They get very little credit in this world.

Anyway for the next three years every Friday night he came to our home and we started to

really grow learn what it is to be separate from the world and Not to be dragged in by the

gang and by the neighborhood people it's always a very big problem for young men because they want to be long and

And Then when I was about 16 my parents finally

let me leave this liberal church, which I wasn't learning anything there and a

Church that was willing to come and pick me up every Sunday morning Sunday evening.

They came for me.

It was it was a small church, maybe about 60 people.

But it was actually a Bible believing church.

I've never been in a Bible believing church.

Everyone carried their Bibles.

If you carried the Bible in the church I grew up and they probably think you're religious fanatic and probably who knows you with the Taliban or

Okay because we saw a number of young people

in our church saved high school they're saved and I was brought by the pastor to

the elders.

There's a Presbyterian Church and I was to give my testimony to the elders.

They never see anything like this high schoolers carrying a Bible and Bible Study every

Friday night all summer at camp.

I mean like we were my mother thought we were religious fanatics and She warned me

people who studied the Bible like that lose their mind.

She said now Chris when I was about 15 I Started studying the

Bible every day three or four hours minimum minimum got very interested in the Bible.

Mother and father they thought the kids gone fanatic.

No, I want to show you I want to show you how little they knew about Christianity one day

my dad says to me he starts to see I'm taking this really serious and

Probably I right in the beginning.

I knew I wanted to serve the Lord full -time.

So anyway by 13, that was very clear in my mind.

But anyway, he said to me one day.

All right, if you're gonna get into religion, can you become the Pope?

And the reason he said that is to him religion is all about money and

If you're going to get into it get into the money so I said dad we're Protestants we're not Catholics.

So anyway, I didn't become the Pope incidentally.

To a Bible believing church and boy you could see the difference immediately

now this is in now the late 50s and Here's

something very interesting those people in that church of maybe 60.

They knew their Bibles.

You could quote something in the New Testament and they could point to within a verse or two.

Oh, yeah that second Thessalonians to do.

That's how well they knew their Bibles.

An exact opposite from the church.

I came people never opened the Bible if you said Thessalonians.

They wouldn't know what you're talking about.

So anyway, I start to really grow.

I was studying All summer then from about 14 on my entire summers were spent

at Pine Bush Bible camp in New York State about 80 miles directly north of New York.

In fact, I'm going to be back in New York next Wednesday to do a conference

for a whole bunch of Spanish churches Wow, which are connected to this Pine Bush Bible camp.

So it's going to be very thrilling for me to see some of these people that I actually knew 60 years ago.

So anyway.

Somewhere around my age of 20, I realized I'm still not getting enough Bible.

I was finished with high school I had to work the next two years and started out

Teachers College in the evening because I thought being the teachers a good profession.

You have the whole summer free.

I'm still involved Chris with camp work this summer.

We had over a thousand young people at our camp and a hundred and seventy professions.

I'm telling you camp work is a fruitful ministry we have seen.

I've met people all over the world save that a Bible camp and Thank the Lord.

There's Bible camps all over America and I'm going to this January be

speaking at the National Camp Convention down in Florida.

And I'm excited about it because I believe in camp work.

I give a lot of my time to it and we get these young people for a whole week or two and we have The

gospel and in the cabins talking to them so anyway, it's a wonderful ministry,

so I wanted a job that I could be a camp all summer and serve the Lord more.

And so I started out at Teachers College.

But after a couple years at a high school working full -time the day.

Quitting my job and going to camp all summer which aggravated my father I said I need more training

and so when about 20 I went to a Bible school something like Moody and I was going for one year to get

more intensified Bible training.

I wasn't getting enough of that on a higher level in my church.

Although it's a good Bible believing church.

I knew there was so much more and so That started my Bible

school training.

I Ended up getting a degree From Colorado Christian

University and then went on to Denver Seminary, which was at the time.

All this is in Denver Called the Conservative Baptist Theological Seminary now, it's called the Denver

Seminary.

I have a master's of divinity from there at the end of seminary I Was

all right now by this time.

I'm working in a church the same church.

I'm in now starting in 1969 I started working in this church with the youth

and After seminary, so I'm in seminary.

I'm working in this church for free Putting mega hours in with the youth

and we saw many young people say many was during the Jesus revolution.

We've never seen anything like this since so after this time after seminary I didn't know what I

was going to do, but I get a phone call from Colorado Christian University saying that the

philosophy teacher had gotten very sick and this was the summer of

73.

Could I just teach one course they knew I had a philosophy degree.

I have nothing else to do and they're gonna pay me to teach this one course that's all it was one course

you call an adjunct teacher and The kids loved the philosophy course so much.

I used a lot of Francis Schaeffer stuff.

Most of the time kids hate philosophy, especially first -year philosophy.

The kids loved it so much.

They were just saying how much they love the course.

They said well, this is the rest of the summer.

Would you teach two courses the rest of the summer?

I said sure.

I have nothing else to do and you're gonna pay me for it.

Well, anyway for the next seven years I was a teacher at Colorado Christian University

Teaching two courses a semester.

I never wanted to be hired full -time.

I refused that because my goal was the church and So in 1980 our church had

really grown and the elders asked me to leave my job.

That job provided finances for me.

And by this time I was already starting to write biblical eldership.

And so 1980 I live left the teaching job, which most people

would have given a right arm for and to work full -time in our local church in Littleton,

Colorado, which I've been to ever since and It's been a marvelous church.

We've had a wonderful group of elders and We're all very dear friends now, I'm not an

elder anymore.

I Retired from that job, although I'm still very active in the church.

But we trained that we have the third generation of elders.

We train them and it's time to hand it over to them.

I'm 77 now.

So it's 65 when I retired and the other brothers all about the same time.

So we're there to help to advise whatever the brothers want us to do.

We have one of the brothers Dave Anderson a marvelous preacher he does about 70 of the preaching on Sunday morning and

He's a very exceptional teacher.

So that that brings you up to where I am now and my ministry now is to help at the

church.

I go around and speak at conferences.

Although the Kovat has shut much that down.

That was great to me.

I was able to finish the act 20 book and Public speaking

going out on the road is getting picking up now.

Slowly.

We go to all the major conferences to Display our books.

We're just at t4g 11 ,000 people and what was interesting Chris's most of

them were under 30 was Marvelous Wow all our books out.

These are the people we're looking for.

So I go to conferences.

My main job is to write and right now if we want to talk about this later I am doing a

complete rewrite of biblical eldership is 30 years old.

It desperately needs an updating lots of new commentaries have come out.

I know the questions better.

Over these 30 years have become a better writer.

Try to write simply and clearly.

Don't try to impress people.

So that's my life.

I have four adult daughters.

I have 15 grandchildren and They're all believers in the Lord.

Hallelujah, that's always great to hear.

Well, we're going to our first commercial break.

If anybody has a question for Alexander Strouk on Biblical eldership

our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen a gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least.

Your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the good old USA.

Please only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you are in disagreement

with.

How your church? Practices biblical eldership or the or the lack of it.

Or there is perhaps you're even a pastor and You disagree with

the denomination that you're in or the congregation that you're in over the eldership.

Those things obviously would be good reasons to remain anonymous, but if it's just a general question, I'm about

what the Bible teaches about what Alexander Strouk has

exegeted from the scriptures on this issue.

Please give us your first name city and state and the country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Alexander Strouk and biblical eldership right after these messages.

Hi, I'm Pete Hegseth co -host of Fox and Friends weekend now.

I don't have to tell you but American education.

It's in a freefall crumbling under the weight of a century of damage inflicted upon America's academic

system.

The answer it's called classical Christian education a form of K through 12 ed.

That's very distinct from the type of education.

Most Americans have received myself included and That's why I'm so excited to have been

invited by my friends at Long Island's Grace Christian Academy to talk about this Wonderful

growing movement and new approach rediscovered to education.

It's at 7 p .m October 15th at the Marriott Hotel and Conference Center in Melville, New York.

I'll also be signing copies of my New York Times best -selling book battle for the American mind for the first 50

guests starting at 6 p .m.

Now this is a fundraising event designed to raise money to help grow this type of education At a time

when it is so desperately needed.

So please come ready to give and to learn about a way to stimulate academic revival in our

great country.

You can purchase tickets for the event by visiting G Cali GC AL I dot -com

and following the link to the gala event.

I hope to see you there.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of iron sharpens iron radio

and I Are heading to Washington DC for the g3 ministries regional conference on the theme

Just thinking about the Bible.

The conference will be held Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th.

I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson Josh vice founder of g3 ministries and Darrell Bernard

Harrison and Virgil Walker co -hosts of the just thinking podcast.

To register visit g3 min org.

That's g3 min org and click on events.

Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, DC.

So join me and Chris Arnson September 15th through the 17th in Washington, DC to the g3

ministries regional conference.

Register now before they run out of seats at g3 min org.

That's g3 min org.

Stop by the iron sharpens iron radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small

group study?

So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study God's Word in those

smaller settings.

Well, let's be honest.

It leaves a lot to be desired.

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today.

That is true to the Word of God and it's built upon sound doctrine.

Much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the Bible.

Hi there, my name is Jordan too, and I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House.

Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.

Our quarterly curriculum is titled the Baptist expositor and for good reason.

We are Baptist and we exegete the scriptures.

If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the Word of God I invite you go to our website

download a free study.

Baptist publishing house comm may God bless you.

It's such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens iron radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show.

He really loves hearing interviewed.

Dr. Joe.

More craft.

I'm Joe Riley a faithful iron sharpens iron radio listener here in a toy in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005 one of my very favorite guests on iron sharpens iron is dr. Joe

more craft.

If you've been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio, dr. More craft and heritage Presbyterian Church of coming

Georgia are largely thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of coming is in Forsyth County a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church Unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards and dr Joe more

craft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism.

Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbyterian built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets

Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone and Tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant

Reformation of the 16th century Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles

proclaimed by the Reformers Scripture alone grace alone faith alone Christ alone and God's glory

alone.

Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on heritage Presbyterian Church of coming, Georgia visit heritage Presbyterian Church

calm.

That's heritage Presbyterian Church calm are called six seven eight nine five four seven

eight three one.

That's six seven eight nine five four seven eight three one.

If you visit tell them Joe Roy, the orange sharpens our in radio listener I'm a toy and count to go there or

sent you.

There's

the father of lies and spin and the mother of those lies is a government who has rejected God.

We have especially been lied to these last two years and the kovat panic has been one of the central Mechanisms that our government has

used to lie to us and grab more power because Christians have not been reading their Bibles.

We are susceptible to lies and are weak in our ability to fight these lies.

God has given us his word to fight Satan and his lies and we need to recover all of God's Word.

It's serrated edge and all.

Mark your calendars for October 6th through 8th as we fight laugh and feast to the glory of God in

Knoxville, Tennessee.

You'll be enlightened edified encouraged and challenged by 10 speakers on the theme lies

propaganda Storytelling and the serrated edge covering various topics that address the burning issues

facing the church in the world today.

Speakers include pastor Doug Wilson of Christ Church of Moscow, Idaho and the whole gang at the cross

politics show and podcast.

For details visit FLF network .com.

That's F for fight L for laugh F for feast network .com.

See you there, October 6th through 8th in Knoxville, Tennessee.

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

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Hi, this is John Sampson pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the iron sharpens iron podcast.

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He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

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We are now back with Alexander Strauch and we are discussing his classic work

biblical eldership an urgent call to restore biblical church leadership.

Obviously even the subtitle of your book indicates that

churches many churches not only local congregations, but even denominations

have a Let's say an aberrant practice

of the way that they the way that they have church polity

done in their Congregations and That's

obviously why you would even put in that Subtitle an urgent call to restore biblical church

leadership.

When did you first begin to realize?

That this was the case.

What was this something that you? yourself Was guilty of in any

church where you were a leader or did you come to discover biblical eldership?

Through your exegesis of the word before you were even an elder yourself.

Something I was you

know, seeing that boy you

reading the

Bible about

the elders.

You'll just

be she spawns

was a

me thing.

And this is somebody who believed in the inerrancy of scripture.

I think he was denomination, but he was so strongly a denominational man

came up which contradicted everything.

He just said what means something

you're non -existing.

Versus on the clergy and laity.

I mean something as Fundamental as that.

It's not even in the New Testament what you see in the New Testament is a very strong Brotherhood

sisterhood.

I mean, it's almost paragraph after paragraph Imposed letters over 250 times.

He says brothers and what he means by that is sisters to Family members

so that really provoked me and then I Started to be more vocal in that class.

And so people started talking about it at the school and most people agreed.

It's heresy and this is not a biblical thing.

So I said, you know what?

I'm gonna see if I can do anything about this and so right from the beginning

I'm not exactly sure how this came about.

I said, I'm gonna make it a Bible exposition we're just going to go through every passage and

You know, there's only really two passages on the Deacons one with any

substance and yet everything was built around the Deacons and There's no passage

on the singular pastor now.

Most people couldn't even believe that but it's true read your Bible.

There is no single King pastor with his lay helpers his lay

People.

When you tell people that you oh, no, no that that's not true.

Yes.

It is true.

It's a fact that we do not have that you go to the second century with Ignatius

and there you have The overseer you do not even have the name church

without the overseer.

There is no baptism or Lord's Supper without the overseer.

Now most people would translate that Bishop that actually means something different.

They would say without the bishop so very quickly in the second century there were these

changes that developed until Greater and greater power were placed in the hands of

priests even dispensing salvation over the next thousand years.

It got farther and farther away from the simple revolutionary teaching of Jesus

on servanthood.

Humility and brotherly accord those four things.

The teachings of Jesus it turns the pyramid the leadership period upside down.

The leader is the servant and you are brothers.

You're not to be like the Pharisees.

You're not to be like the Gentile Kings.

You're not to be like that.

Well what happened over the next five hundred to a thousand years is they said wow.

This is much better going back to the Roman type of ruler and the kings of the rulers and

of course of the Adopting the Old Testament priesthood

and the Moses model and so consequently everything gets reversed and everything Jesus taught

is Reinterpreted to mean what he said it didn't mean.

So what I

did right from the beginning was make it a

careful budget is carefully gone through so now in the new biblical

Eldership, I'm even more cautious To each passage I read all

the commentaries I work out of the Greek text.

I try to let my very best by the grace of God let the text talk to us because it's the

word of the Lord.

It's the Spirit of God who is speaking to us.

Let the text speak to you.

Don't read into your denomination or your big highfalutin thoughts.

So I think it's about as Carefully written in fact, this is the

unique thing of this book Chris.

There is no other book in this area of church government and elders or deacons that exegetes every

passages.

So I've read all these books when they come out.

I buy them and just read them real quickly.

The problem with almost all these books.

It's human wisdom their opinion their preference the way they do it.

In fact some of these books which are big deal books.

They don't.

They they might put a scripture reference in but there's no struggling with the text.

There's no dealing with the text.

I disagree with what they say.

I dismiss those books so I've tried by the grace of God not to give you my

opinion, which is worthless carefully expound and

That would be something I very much joy do and have some ability and expounding scripture and

Trying to be a good exegete, I read all the big big

exegetes a

praise God.

Oh, let's see we have.

An anonymous listener and the anonymous listeners says.

I Am in a fundamentalist church that takes very seriously

the fact that the Word of God is perfect and that there are no errors in the Bible.

And The thing that I cannot understand is that this church has a one pastor

rule and It seems so clear from the scriptures that This

is not the model that has been provided for us in the perfect

inerrant and God -breathed Word for church government.

And The text that immediately jumps out at me is Acts 14 23

Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and With prayer

and fasting committed them to the Lord in whom they had put their trust.

It seems very obvious that each church had elders plural

appointed to them.

I don't understand how somebody who takes a strict view of The inerrancy of scripture could

overlook that and actually violate that because that was the

first.

1423 and I can remember right now somewhere around 1973 74

when I started this book I started with Acts 14 23.

Read all the commentaries.

Read any

articles

about the one -man rule.

For each of these new churches, but he didn't then at the end of Paul's life He writes to

Titus and this is very important to get it answers a number of questions.

He says to Titus Appoint elders.

Now here's what gets important as I Directed you've noticed that word directed.

It's a strong term commanded.

Charged.

Ordered.

You people say the Bible never Mandates this.

Well, there it is right there open your eyes.

See, we're not looking at the text.

The text is as I required you appoint elders plural in each town

and.

Then he goes on to say they must be of this kind of character.

You don't just appoint elders.

The elders must be of this nature husband of one wife of reproach, etc.

So at the very beginning of Paul's ministry the very end of his ministry we have a

consistent pattern in all kinds of different cultural backgrounds of the

plurality of Shepherd elders.

Now, they're not bored elders.

They're shepherd elders because Peter and Paul the two great apostles.

Tell the elders what to do.

Shepherd amen effort the flock of God there it is right black and white.

You

gotta play

with the text and

say well, in fact, could you

pick it?

Can you pick up brother?

We're right where you left off because we have to go to our midway break.

And we could pick up right where you were mentioning the house churches.

Yeah, okay, and please be patient with us folks.

The midway break Is a bit long because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida

requires of us a long break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires of

them to Geographically localize this program to Lake City, Florida.

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Also send in your questions to Alexander Stroup the Chris Arns in a gmail .com.

We'll be right back right after these messages.

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We have especially been lied to these last two years and the kovat panic has been one of the central Mechanisms that our government has

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See you there, October 6th through 8th in Knoxville, Tennessee.

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That's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence before I go to any of our listener questions

and we have a number of them waiting for you Alex, but Pick up where you left off.

You were talking about how there were house churches and There were elders in these churches

and pick up exactly where you left off there.

Yes, how do you answer the fact that in every church and the new test?

One way to get around it is to say this.

You see people

actually think it's

fact, but it's not fact.

I would there only have to be one

elder per how you could easily have two elders

or three.

I've visited house churches that have three elders.

So why would it only have one elder?

Well, that's because they're looking for.

To find the the King pastor and that's one way they do it.

But all the texts.

Refer to a plurality of elder.

It's interesting what reading the commentaries.

I just saw this the other day in James Five.

Call the elders of the church if you're very sick and needing help.

Well one commentator just chant turns the whole thing into a fear.

Call your pastor when you're in church.

That's not what the text says.

See what I mean Chris.

Let the text talk.

Don't tell it what you wanted to say.

So that's one of the ways they get around the plurality of elders, but I would have to say this to

you and Years of looking at different authors in that it's pretty well agreed

by even the biggest names.

Even people who are in the Anglican Church.

People in Baptist churches that are very very much on the one pastor and the deacons.

They admit.

No, the New Testament does teach that.

So it's not a big mystery anymore.

Amen, and in fact, I am a reformed Baptist and the vast majority of reformed Baptists

especially if they are confessional believe in not only the plurality but the parity

of the elders and Quite a number of them that I have met personally have

said that before they even Became reformed Baptist elders

when they were in churches that were not reformed Baptists.

They were convinced of the plurality and parity of the eldership from your book.

In fact, let me I'm going to read for you a spectacular

commendation for your book.

That has been written by someone that has been a guest on my program

a number of times.

And I think this may be the first time he's ever sent in a question to one

of my guests.

His name he's a dear friend and he's a brilliant Christian named.

Dr. Joseph Losado pastor of Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey,

he's a resident of Teaneck, New Jersey and I usually don't give a

full name of the listener when they write in but because I want to promote dr. Losado's congregation I think so

highly of it that I want to make sure I give his full name and even his website in a minute.

But he says about your book, this was one of the most important and

Influential books I have ever read.

Whoa, that's a statement.

I first read this around 2001 it contains no secret mysteries and

nothing particularly exciting just sound solid biblical teaching about

church leadership.

It opened my eyes to the source of the abuse and tyranny that I witnessed

in the modern church with its solitary unaccountable celebrity pastors.

This is a reason that the Bible prescribes a plurality of elders.

And those who ignore this do so to their own danger and the danger of their flocks.

God knows the human tendency to be corrupted by power and stardom if you're a

member of a soul Slash senior pastor lit church do your pastor a favor?

Get him this book and challenge him to read it.

Anyone open to the truth will change their minds and reform their church leadership structure.

Oh, and yeah.

There's also a chance you'll end up being shut down.

You'll also be end up being shown the back door out.

And obviously that's a tragedy when churches don't listen to the scriptures and kick you out.

Well, here are his questions He has two of them and I'll give them to you one at a time.

Are there any examples that stand out to?

Alexander of senior pastors following the Moses model repenting

and Changing their leadership models after reading his book any interesting

stories.

Like do you have any anecdotes about that?

I can't write all

this came out a number of people from the Calvary Chapel called me and

in fact invited me to where they live and They were very concerned about

their pastor almost completely and not

being together in

shepherding this thing.

Not just everything's on you such poor

Physical and psychological thing it really got him to think so I went out to California spent some time

with him and eventually This group had to leave the Calvary Chapel's, you know, the Calvary Chapel's have

many good things about them they're Bible teaching but they're very model and

it's They don't tell you about the problems this creates Where the Moses puts the offering in

one pocket and spends it out of the other pocket.

They have almost complete authority to do what they want.

Well, you get these young pastors with that kind of authority.

Well as that brother says it goes to your head you're too tempted to fool with money.

Because no one can question you over the years.

We've had a number of people from our church come from the Calvary Chapel and Like I said, I'm not

putting them down because I do know that one of their strong points is their Expositional

Bible teaching churches and they're very holy people.

They want to live for the Lord but in this thing, they are very wrong and Numbers

of people have suffered from this one -man rule where there is no real life

Accountability and that is not good for anyone.

Well, thank you.

Dr. Joseph Lissardo of Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey.

And let me give our listeners your website.

It is B O L for bread of life fellowship org B

for bread O for of L for life Fellowship or B O L fellowship

org and Dr. Lissardo has been kind enough.

I am I am giving away a limited numbers a limited number of copies

of biblical eldership by Alexander struck To listeners who submit questions and

dr Lissardo has been kind enough since he already has this book to let another listener who sends in

a question Receive his copy for free.

And by the way, I think I forgot to mention to our anonymous listener early earlier That if you

email me your full name and full mailing address You will also receive a free copy of biblical

eldership by Alexander Strouk thanks to the generosity of Lewis and Roth publishers and also

thanks to the generosity of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who will actually be Shipping that to you

at no cost to you or to honor.

Sharpens iron radio.

We have sure.

I was asked a question about

from.

I don't

have a lot

of

specific stories.

But I do have hundreds of people who have said to me we have moved to this way

of governing our church, so.

Yes, I I have too but I don't.

I don't recall any of the men that I have spoken with Who have told me about how

God used your book to guide them into a biblical?

Understanding of the plurality of elders and the parity of elders that came from a dictatorship type

thing that was happening.

These men just seemed to realize that the one pastor model wasn't the wasn't the biblical

way and they they were courageous enough to make sure that the Polity of the church

changed.

And I almost forgot to read Dr. Lozada a second question.

It's a good thing.

I looked at his email again.

His second question is what does Alexander think of churches with a

genuine plurality who refer to a first among equals.

With the title of senior pastor does the title itself set up an expectation of a single man at the top.

Very good question.

I have never been comfortable with senior associate Assistant pastor

titles, but what have you to say about this?

Yes.

Well, I would not like this term senior pastor.

So but let me back up.

Let's go back to the scriptures first Timothy 5 17 and 18.

Which we would all agree the Bible teaches that among the elders.

So let me be among the elders.

They all have the same name.

They have the general responsibility of the shepherding pastoring of the church, right?

There is genuine parity you mentioned that earlier at the same time there is

Functional diversity now I did use in the first

Book of biblical eldership the term first among equals.

It's not a bad term.

The problem is it's so misunderstood and misused.

So I in this new edition have removed that I mentioned it only once or twice.

Because I don't think it's it's bad.

Misunderstood so I think it's better to talk about functional diversity based on

the gifts of the Holy Spirit, so Every eldership will have parity.

Equality and it will have functional diversity.

Now we go to a crucial verse to

understand accurately.

There we see there are elders Who labor very strong word in?

Preaching and teaching not all elders can or want to or

Gifted to labor in preaching and teaching so among the elders There are those who give

themselves in a fuller way to preaching and teaching and then there's those who in

Leadership do the same now.

There's no special name given to that person.

He's not called the senior pastor.

The lead pastor he's called the teacher like all the other elders

certain levels.

Now you have the same thing with Peter and the twelve apostles.

Which by the way can be a very good model for an eldership.

You have twelve apostles all equally apostles.

No one's a more of a puzzle than another puzzle.

There's no senior apostle.

There's no apostle with his team.

What you have is Peter among the twelve is definitely

he's the mouthpiece of the group.

He's the one that's always speaking and when come to acts the eleven stood up with Peter

and he speaks.

He's the natural speaker the evangelist, but he gets no special name.

I want you to notice that he's not senior apostle.

So I think we should there's something important in this.

I think it comes back to the Holy Brotherhood.

Emphasized in the New Testament, we are all brothers and sisters.

We're all equally brothers and sisters.

Jesus said you are brothers.

So I don't like the term senior pastor in our church if people come up to me.

They say oh, are you the senior pastor?

I say no.

I am one of seven pastors.

I'm not the senior pastor.

We govern the church together as brothers and And.

So I think you do not have any kind of biblical Precedents for using these

terms.

So one of our brothers now Does like I said 70 of Sunday

morning teaching we don't want him to preach every Sunday.

The reason is it really helps him last longer.

He's got a little family.

Is him a chance to do other reading and get caught up and we have many other very good preachers.

Our people like it that way that we hear from some of the other elders and some of them are very dynamic.

If you're if you're not gifted for the pulpit ministry or that kind of situation.

You shouldn't be up there.

It just hurts things and.

Remember teachers come in all colors shapes and sizes.

Some are great at small group one -on -one.

Like the man who discipled me and my friends.

You wouldn't want him on the platform, but as a group of young men together for two hours.

He was perfect.

So people come in colors shapes and sizes so no, I don't think you have any scriptural

precedence for Singling one elder as the pastor or senior pastor

if you are going to give a name to someone who's full -time.

Serving that way and doing more of the preaching.

Then come up with a name that's going to be closer to the scriptures than senior pastor.

Because I always say if they're the senior pastor who are the other elders.

Right.

So basically you are saying and correct me if I'm wrong in Summary that in

the scriptures all elders have equal Authority, but they have different gifts

that lead them to function different differently.

Exactly, and that's something different.

So for example, one of our elders loves evangelism.

Another is very heavy.

It gives an enormous amount of time to our missionaries.

We have others more doctrinally or in love systematic theology books and reading big books.

Others would go to sleep.

They all must be a scripturally trained because one of the qualifications is Titus 1 9

able to Instruct in sound doctrine refute the false teacher.

Every elder coming on the eldership must have a certain amount of knowledge and ability to teach

truth.

Now this brings me to a very important point Chris and that is this where elderships fail.

Is that they don't train their elders?

No one becomes an elder in a church without our training for several years and We want to make sure

that they've read a systematic theology book they can answer all basic questions.

We have a website by the way biblical eldership comm you can go to and in that website

website We have over 250 15 minute videos and in there There is a list of

questions that every elder should be able to ask and a list of verses.

They must know they must see them and know them on.

Many women's roles in the church charismatic gift of the deity of Christ

the way of salvation through faith through Christ We have all these verses listed.

They need to know those verses.

They can't be foreign to them.

So no one becomes an elder in our church.

And this is where I think most churches are failing.

They bring on men that are actually not biblically.

Qualified doctrinally qualified and then they wonder why it doesn't work.

Well, that's because you've got unqualified men.

Well, what I hear from many men, which I heard yesterday, I inherited this eldership and

Not a one of the men are qualified.

Then the people write me and say the eldership doesn't work.

Well, yeah, I know it doesn't work.

Not if you don't do it, right.

We have a faithful listener to this program and also a generous financial

supporter of this program every month Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina who says

greetings brothers.

Growing up Southern Baptist.

We had congregational rule with a pastor and deacons.

Until I heard dr. John MacArthur I didn't even know what elder rule was and

through his ministry was introduced to your book on Eldership.

Now, I attend a Reformed Baptist Church and we have elder rule and we hold to the doctrines of grace.

It's wonderful when we do things God's way.

My question is do you know how the Southern Baptist and other denominations got away from

biblical eldership?

I know the Southern Baptist Convention started out as Calvinist

Baptist and I was

just with the number of good books

one year ago in October and he said to me your book

on biblical eldership has caused a genuine revival.

Among Southern Baptists many of our key leaders like Tom Schreiner Mark Dever

all believe in biblical eldership and they work with an eldership.

It's been a revival in our movement, and we've wondered why we got away from it.

Spurgeon himself had a whole team of elders that dealt with the spiritual a

life of the church and they had deacons who dealt with the material therefore the needy and So

it's like anything else if you don't have people enforcing your beliefs you lose your beliefs.

So they did not enforce these teachings and you know We always go the easiest road

follow the stream and what's the easiest road is to have one man run the church.

He's in charge.

It's not so Hard on the rest of us and then you have a group of deacons.

Which in some churches can fight the pastor to the death and others they just do what they're told or all different.

So there has been a revival of this topic and I would have to say there's a real revival the

doctrines of grace through Mark Dever and Tom Schreiner and

Al Mohler and these men that stand for these doctrines I would say all of Southern

Seminary probably stands for the doctrines of grace.

Trying to think of some of the other professors there I know that do a very strong on

Election by grace.

I think we need to realize whatever doctrines we have whatever things we preciously love

if we are not cautious we will lose them and there must be people there that

will enforce and Make sure things Change and so that's why

you have x20 again.

What does he say guard the flock?

Wolves are coming people from within and There's

things they take scripture and they twist it and they're so good at twisting it.

You don't even know what they're saying anymore.

You can't untie the knot.

You must be x20 31.

You must be alert awake because Night and day Paul says I I

warned you every one of you Wolves are coming.

You have to be awake.

That's why I believe in the ministry of bookies

down.

You have a way of perpetuating your books publish or perish if you don't.

That's another reason I wrote biblical eldership.

If we don't put this down in writing and now of course, we can use the websites and

podcasts.

Which by the way on the new biblical eldership, we're going to do a podcast on each chapter.

So I'm able to walk people through the chapter why I did it what what I thought about this or that I think

it'll be great great training.

In fact our website biblical eldership calm.

There is no other website like it.

Okay

Grady you have won a free copy of the book.

We have been discussing biblical eldership by Alexander Strout.

Make sure that we have your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship that

out to you.

And once again, we thank Lewis and Roth for their generosity and providing us a limited number of books for our

listeners.

Today we have Thomas and West Islet, New York.

Who says.

I know that a lot of Reformed Baptists love your book.

But I was wondering I probably missed it earlier on in the program when you were describing your

church but how is Littleton Bible Chapel of Littleton, Colorado.

Compared to a Reformed Baptist Church wouldn't have any real

disagreements.

Our doctrine of grace is the same and plurality of elders.

Bible teaching we have the Lord's are not that.

That's actually a growing.

That that is growing in popularity amongst Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians that I've

been in contact with.

Because everything we know the early church for was a major

part x242.

Major part of gathered as God's people to

remember

and singing

and

stripes.

Been wondering

Why did we leave this out?

You know, some churches just put it Sunday night once a month talk about Sidelining something that's.

I don't know what you need else, but tradition.

Changing church tradition is almost impossible.

And yes, you can lose your head if you try to change.

Church to change itself is hard.

You have be very skilled and that's why I give out Thousands tens of thousands of copies

of Agape leadership the marvelous life of Robert Chapman Spurgeon said The

saintliest man I ever met and we ought to give that out to your listeners.

It's only 75 pages and I want to guarantee if it's not one of the most spiritually

inspiring books you ever read Chris will come to your house and return

all your money.

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says

If you believe in an elder rule.

I'm just wondering where does the voice of the congregation come in?

Do they have any vote in important matters?

Yes, it's

absolutely

essential.

Here's why when you go to the new just check this out.

The one another commands the body of Christ the family of God

doesn't write just to the leaders he writes to all the members and all Responsible

for the life of the church for the care of one.

No, that's why you have all these beautiful one another commands

Congregational participation in all decisions that affect them that they would want to be a part of.

They don't want to be a part of light bulbs and pay in parking lot.

There are no interest

to

them thing is one member one vote.

That's where the fighting star decision to make and

Everyone's real hot in the collar.

And so you have one vote you you're going to win the votes going to win and you have secret ballots

and all this.

We don't have any of that.

So let's just say we're going to make a major change.

We will send a survey out to every member actually to anyone who attends regularly and

we want their input.

We want their name on it.

We don't take you without your name.

We don't want it want your comments.

A Decision will be made by the elders in participation with the congregation.

So it's like acts 15 the elders and the Apostles with the church made

this decision.

We want to be able to say with the church.

So a decision will be made based on reason on Facts on the

congregations input.

We will know exactly what the congregation says.

What is it's what is divided over?

Certain members certainly get a greater input into us because they're faithful.

They're there people that show up once a year.

They don't get much Credence from us but in the congregational system, you may not

have been in church in a year.

But as long as your name's on the register, you're a voting member and that's what causes the fighting.

They call up everyone they can think of call their children and everyone now.

We need your vote get your vote.

They just it just tears the place apart.

Yes, strong congregational participation, we want the congregation to own and

support the decision.

Such as starting a new church.

Which was one of our last ones behind us

we need the congregations mind and wisdom and the spirit working in the whole body

and we have writing all their comments and those comments will

help us make a Reasonable decision with the best information we have and we can

say the elders with the congregation have decided on this.

So that's how I see it.

And again, I take you back to how Paul and Peter write to the congregation.

They address all members of the congregation.

All are seen as responsible for one another.

Praise God.

And by the way, I may have forgotten to tell Thomas earlier, but both Thomas and you Bobby Have

both won a free copy of biblical eldership.

Make sure I have your full mailing addresses so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Can

ship those books out to you at no charge to you or to us.

And once again We thank Lewis and Roth publishing for providing us with this with these

free copies.

We're going to go to our final break right now.

It'll be shorter than the last break.

If you have a question Please send it in as quickly as you can because we are running out of time.

I already know that I would love to have brother Strouck back on the program.

Not only to address this subject in a part two form But also his

axe 20 book.

I think he's been absolutely remarkable as a guest.

But if you have a question for today try to send it in as quickly as possible to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

Hi, I'm Pete Hegseth co -host of Fox and Friends weekend now.

I don't have to tell you but American education.

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it's at 7 p .m. October 15th at the Marriott Hotel and Conference Center in Melville, New York.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens

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If you love iron sharpens iron radio One of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

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Welcome back.

Men in ministry leadership.

Don't forget if you want to attend the free iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon two weeks from

today Thursday September 22nd 11 a .m. To 2 p .m. At Church of the Living Christ in

Loisville, Pennsylvania.

Please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put Pastors luncheon and the subject

line and give us the name and location of your church when registering.

The speaker is dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries and please make note that the following

Sunday September 24th Also at the Church of the Living Christ Dr. White will be debating

an advocate of what has become known as confessional bibliology.

He basically is defending the idea Dr. Peter van Cleek that is is defending the

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This event is open to everyone men women and children and it's absolutely free.

Unlike the pastors luncheon the debate will be held at 4 p .m Saturday September

24th and for more details go to Church of the Living Christ dot CC Church

of the Living Christ dot CC we are now back with doctor

with the brother Alexander Strauch and We have an anonymous listener who

says I? Have more Pastor friends that are Presbyterian

than in other denominations.

I love my Presbyterian brethren and agree with them on nearly everything that they teach.

And I know that a number of them also promote and love your book on biblical eldership.

But I'm assuming that they must love it so much.

Only in regard to the functioning of a plurality and parity of elders in the local

congregation.

They also believe in things that violate that in my opinion and I say this

lovingly and respectfully, but I do not believe in synods and Presbyterians,

can you respond to that concept of? church government and the

excuse that I seem to repeatedly get from my Presbyterian friends is That this is

what we need to replace the Council of Jerusalem.

Yes.

Well, thank you anonymous and you have also won a free copy of biblical eldership.

If you give us your full name and mailing address off the air obviously through an email.

Well, I want you brother Strauch to have at least two minutes of uninterrupted time to

summarize what you most want to say.

To our

listeners today.

I mean they

were

not just a number

of

other

on those

Redefined, but we keep going.

I mean

that's 2 ,000 years of church history.

And that's why we've got all the monster denominations with priests and

bishops and cardinals.

So I would just simply say

Aid of God which by the way many of our own brothers Feel that the Holy Spirit of God led

through all these things the first 500 years now why has to stop at 500

years?

I don't know, but they will say for 500 years after the first led

and priests and all these human works that became part of being a Christian

and and the that's all human

tradition and Go to the direct so

that's where I want to go because that's the pure truth.

Jesus is Lord.

He's the head of the church people are the head of the church that they just cause a lot of

confusion.

It seems to me.

So you have your Bible you can go to your Bible and I would say this to you.

The Bible is sufficient to guide you in your church polity and in your

marriage and in everything you do.

The problem is we don't know it enough or trust it enough.

One of the things I love about the Bible how it all interconnects that that's a beautiful thing to me the more, you know, the

Bible the more you see how it all interconnects together and.

Which well, I want to leave our listeners with your websites

biblicaleldership .com biblicaleldership .com and don't forget about the

website for The Littleton Bible Chapel in Littleton, Colorado

Littletonbiblechapel .org Littletonbiblechapel .org.

I want to thank you so much for being an extraordinary guest as I knew you would be.

I want to thank all of our listeners Especially those who wrote in questions and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives

That Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.