TLP 143: How to Know if Your Child is Cutting | Dr. Mark Shaw Interview

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When I was a child,

00:08

I thought as a child, when I'm an adult, I think as an adult. So kids don't always deal with it as on an adult level.

00:15

Welcome to Truth, Love, Parents, where we use God's Word to become intentional premeditated parents.

00:24

Here's your host, AM Brewster. Welcome friends. I hope you're having a wonderful day. I feel like I got to be super chipper this morning because the content of today's show sounds so very dark.

00:34

But our topic today is extremely important and it needs to be discussed. It's so important that I brought on a special guest to help equip us for the task.

00:43

Today's discussion is about self -harm and more specifically, the practice commonly known as cutting. Now, before I continue,

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I want to encourage those of you with younger children to stay with us today. And this is for a couple of reasons. The first is that your children may be young now, but as they grow and are exposed to various forms of negative influences, you're going to need to be aware of what's out there and be prepared to help them interpret that information biblically.

01:06

A lot of parents are surprised. All of a sudden, their kid's cutting themselves and their parents didn't even know that was a thing. The second reason is that statistically, self -harm is most common among teenage girls.

01:16

Now, as a side note, that observation alone might be important enough for us to dedicate a whole show. But back to the stats, some studies have shown that 40 % of college students self -harm in one way or another.

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That 20 % of high schoolers participate as well. And additional research suggests that 7 % of third grade girls and 8 % of third grade boys said they had self -injured at some point in their lives.

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My point is, this practice is not merely the go -to for broody teenage boys. Any child can be tempted in this arena, and that's why

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I've asked Dr. Mark Shaw to join us today. I met Mark at the annual Association of Certified Biblical Counselors conference.

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I attended one of his many workshops specifically about self -harm, and I knew he'd be great help for you premeditated parents out there.

02:00

How are you doing, Mark? Doing great. Great, great, great. Thank you. Awesome. Well, for all you listeners out there,

02:08

Mark and I have been really trying to connect here to make this work. And honestly, I'm very hesitant to ever put my thoughts out there.

02:17

The devil is trying to stop this from happening. But it's interesting when I'm trying to connect with certain people for interviews and whatnot, how many issues and stuff come in.

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And it's just technological issues and all that kind of stuff. So Mark and I have been battling this morning actually getting connected, and we're so happy to be together.

02:34

We're almost giddy, but it's actually working. But let's go ahead and jump in here and just get the chance to know you,

02:41

Mark, give you a chance to introduce yourself to the audience. Tell us a little about yourself, tell me about your family, and tell us about what your ministry is.

02:48

My wife and I have been married over 20 years. She would know the exact number of those years.

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But we have four wonderful children, and we now live in Indianapolis, Indiana.

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And I am restarting a ministry that I started, I founded 10 years ago, called

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Truth in Love Ministries. And we are a local church partnering organization.

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We go into local churches and start counseling. We have a turnkey operation. We have an office manager who manages counseling appointments.

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And then as we counsel, we teach a class at night. And it's very interactive.

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It's lively. It's not just content driven. I think there's a lot of great content out there.

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But what I'm trying to focus on is giving people an opportunity to mix it up a little bit, to work on case studies and role plays and listening skills and learn how to ask good questions and follow the breadcrumbs, so to speak, of what people are saying back into their heart motivations.

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And so we do that at night, try to find people in the local church who want to do counseling and then enfold them into our ministry.

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And we counsel in teams of two. So we always have two counselors in every session. And we put those church members with our more seasoned team of counselors in our ministry.

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And we hope to raise them up from maybe a second chair counselor to a first chair counselor, meaning they become a disciple maker, a leader.

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And we constantly replicate. So we're trying to always counsel in teams of two for the purpose of replicating more counselors and growing the ministry in a local church.

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So that's what we do in the Indianapolis area. And then I teach on addiction nationally and internationally and so forth.

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So really excited about the days ahead of ministry for Truth and Love Ministries. Well, first of all, you got a great name, just saying, you know.

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Second of all, I think that what you're doing is amazing because it's getting counseling, you know, back into the church, back to the people who the

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Lord has equipped to be doing that work, which is awesome. But I also, you know, you made a little comment there about, you know, speaking and whatnot on addictions and stuff.

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And I'd love to hear a little bit more about your experience in that. Like, how does a person come to the place where they're invited to come talk about addictions?

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Hey, we need someone to talk about cutting. Let's get Mark Shaw. Yeah, well,

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I have a very gifted wife who edits all of my writing and my books.

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And so I have 20 published resources and I have that many because of my wife.

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She edits and does a great job and gets it ready for the publisher to where it's almost publisher ready when they receive it.

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So that's that's why I get invited is I have a lot of resources. I've worked in the addiction field since 1991.

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And I take a deep breath when I say that because it's hard to believe, A, that I'm that old and B, that that I've done this kind of work because it's hard, as you know, just residential living, you know, with people you're dealing with everything from they need a toothbrush to they need to be counseled due to some traumatic event in their lives.

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So it runs the gamut and it can wear you out if you're not careful. But I love it and I'm thankful people allow me to consult with them, help them in their ministry or teach their church, train people on how to do effective heart ministry for the issue of idolatry, which, as you know, is just a self addiction is really what most people have.

06:33

So true. So very true. All right. See, I told you Mark knew what he was talking about and he does.

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I was like I said, I had met him in one of his workshops and I was blessed, so blessed and helped in that workshop.

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And I'm really looking forward to him sharing his knowledge and his research and his learning and experience with you, which is which is why we're all here.

06:52

We're here to grow as parents. Now, I just threw out some statistics in my introduction, but I'd like you to take a moment to kind of define self -harm broadly.

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And what I always do, and I always do this to my interviewers, interviewees, I always throw a bunch of questions at them and then hope they remember most of them.

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But this is kind of what I'm wanting from you, kind of to define self -harm broadly, try to define cutting for us specifically, and then just share some of your observations you made in your ministry to people with this self -harm temptation.

07:23

Like, you know, I'm just curious, you might ask among young people, who's predominantly affected by this?

07:29

Do these young people have anything in common? You know, something like that. Kind of help us understand the big picture of this.

07:36

Sure. Well, self -injury, the definition of self -injury is injuring yourself on purpose by making scratches or cuts on your body, usually with a sharp object, enough to break the skin and to make it bleed.

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You know, it's termed self -harm, self -mutilation, self -abuse. SIB, self -injurious behavior is a term you hear for this.

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And then there's non -suicidal self -injury.

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So NSSI is another abbreviation that you hear linked to this.

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But it's basically, you know, injuring yourself, hurting yourself. And there's a number of ways to do that.

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And if you think about it, Aaron, we all injure ourselves. I mean, we all make choices day in and day out.

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Some of ours are smaller scale. But what we eat, what we choose to do or fail to do if we don't exercise or we don't take care of ourselves.

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I mean, there's those little tiny forms of that. But for the kids that we're talking about, it's normally younger people who struggle with this, although I've met with, you know, late 20s, early 30s, that age range.

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But very immature thinking behind that. But self -injury is just it can be burning your fingers, cutting your skin to the point of bleeding, which is typically what's most heard of, what's known out there.

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Scratching your arms. You see kids that dig into their arms and they have little scars all up and down their arms.

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I remember a young lady at a at a drive through restaurant and she reached out to hand us our our meal, you know, in the bag.

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And we're looking at her arm and I just saw scars all up and down her arms. And I knew exactly what it was.

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It was from self -injurious behavior. And I think, too, like one thing, actually, this is this is really it is huge.

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Cutting seems to be the predominant thing. But one thing that I was actually recently introduced to is

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Heath Lambert did one of his podcast episodes on his podcast, which is called

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Truth and Love. And they did an episode all on hair pulling. I think it was episode 130.

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So if those listeners out there want to check that out, that's a great podcast to listen to. But it was all about hair pulling.

10:00

It's a similar thing, you know, where people are pulling hair out of their heads for these same reasons. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah.

10:06

I mean, same heart reasons, plucking your eyelashes, slamming shoulders into a wall until bruises or punching a, you know, something for guys.

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I mean, picking scabs and and people would even argue, you know, the the extreme tattooing and and pierce self, you know, the piercings and all that kind of stuff.

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I mean, you'll see people who have hundreds of piercings and all over their bodies and and that that is considered a form of even though a form of self injury, even though a lot of people in the in the world wouldn't want to call it that.

10:41

I mean, it really that is what it is. Yeah, I completely agree, especially, you know, you get to the the more extreme piercing stuff like the gauging and stuff like that.

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It's just it goes it goes to a lot of extremes. And I think you mentioned something. It's important to remind all of us.

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We did an episode. It was 114. This was back in December, I believe it's called

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How to Know if Your Child is Addicted. And in that episode, I think we showed what you're saying, that everyone is, in fact, addicted to what

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I said was really the most damning substance on the planet. And that substance itself, you know, we we just and we talked about how every other addiction really in a big way is kind of a secondary addiction to feed that first one.

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And so that, you know, sometimes, you know, when we look at someone who's cutting and we say, oh, man, they have an addiction to cutting.

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Well, really, they're just cutting themselves because of their worship of self. And that looks like it's a huge problem.

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But in the same way that people cut themselves, you know, somebody else over here is having an eating disorder or this person over here is eating a lot of tattoos.

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And those things are kind of like a little bit more, quote, unquote, commonly accepted. But they still are secondary addictions that are being used to feed the primary one of that, you know, that looking for satisfaction in myself.

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So for you listeners, today's episode really for me was specifically born from a desire to equip parents, you to discover the core and the peripheral symptoms of a cutter.

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So you can see, you know, if you try to try to understand if your child is having this temptation. However, before we jump into that,

12:16

Mark, I'm wondering if you'd help us understand really the mind of a person. And I think you've done that a little bit, but really kind of broaden this out.

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Who, you know, the mind of a person who would struggle with this temptation to cause themselves pain. I work with a lot of cutters.

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And honestly, I think working with them sometimes is easier than helping their parents understand why they cut in the first place.

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You know, sometimes the parents are going, Aaron, I don't get why a person would do that. It's a lot of people struggle with this concept.

12:43

What would you say to a parent who asks, why would my child even do that? How would you help that parent kind of put themselves into their kid's shoes?

12:51

Yeah, you had a great point. It's, it's often the family members who really don't understand why would my kid do this?

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And, you know, with, with kids who cut, I mean, they are a misunderstood group.

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Oftentimes it's how they see themselves. They see themselves as ignored, appreciated, that kind of thing by their parents or by friends or, you know, and, and, you know, you think about the

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Bible makes a distinction in our, in our maturity level. When I was a child,

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I thought as a child, when I'm adult, I think as an adult kind of thing. So, so kids don't always deal with things, know how to deal with it as on an adult level.

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And I often think of abuse kids to sexual abuse, for example, kids are kind of thrust into an adult world before their bodies are physically able to deal with.

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I mean, maybe in some, you know, we're talking about a seven, eight year old, they're not able to have children at that age, but their, their spiritual understanding, their emotional understanding is like a child.

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So they don't know how to deal with this stuff that happens to them. And, and I think it doesn't have to be that severe with cutting.

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I think people often think, oh man, this is a very serious mental illness. We need to get them to a psychiatrist fast and do all that.

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And, and I think, I mean, it depends on where people are, you know, where they find their child in the, in the progressive state of this.

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But I think there's so much that we can do as parents, we can do as friends who come alongside or biblical counselors or pastors, or, you know, just anyone in the body of Christ, we can sit down and help these cutters who are seeing themselves as ignored or, you know, unappreciated, overpowered maybe sometimes and cutting gives them a chance to feel control.

14:45

Sometimes they feel overwhelmed by all the stress in their lives. And, and I think that's a big thing with, with kids now, right now is the anxiety.

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You know, they see all this stuff on Instagram and in social media and they're, they, they're seeing a perfect version of everything.

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And so they're looking at their own nose and saying, oh man, my nose is too, too long or too wide or too this, or my hair is this, or I wish

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I had that, that pair of shoes or that purse, or, or for boys, it's, it's similar kinds of things.

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And so kids are anxious. They're, they're wanting to strive to be perfect. And that creates the stress, the, the overwhelming feelings that they have.

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And then, you know, being bullied or degraded by other teenagers. I mean, that's common in the teenage realm.

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It can happen in other ages. But then just strongly disliking themselves. So I think that's where the, the cutter goes.

15:41

They go to a place where they can control it. We'll talk about that more in a minute, I'm sure. But that's kind of how they're seeing themselves.

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And so parents can step in and help. One thing I do real quick,

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I mean, with our kids, we went to a, a counseling training conference. It was open to the whole church.

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And I took my two youngest kids. I have, we have four. And at afterwards, we always try to stop somewhere and just talk about it.

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And usually I have to kind of unpack wrong theology or things that I heard that I, that I really don't want my kids to believe that if they're not biblical.

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So we stop and we talk and we, you know, and I listen to them and I just ask questions at first. And then

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I kind of bring in my agenda. Well, you know, when this person said this or said that, this is what the Bible teaches.

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And I'm not sure that's true. And I try to say it in a way that, you know, this person loves the Lord. They're just, they don't know this yet.

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You know, they're in the process of learning. So I try to unpack that for my kids and help them to think and understand more in a more mature adult like way without, without making them into adults.

16:47

That's, that's not the point, but helping them to understand things in a bigger way is what I'm trying to explain. And so I think with kids, they're just emotional.

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They don't know how to deal with things that are hurtful and dealing with suffering and, and all that.

17:01

And so they go to this place of self -harm and parents wonder, you know, what's going on, but this is a place that they can control.

17:10

I think that's fantastic insight. And I think it's helpful because we don't all respond to things the same way.

17:16

You know, some, some people are more sensitive to certain things and other people that doesn't bother them. And I think that's helpful.

17:21

And we really do, I think it's so beneficial for us to try to understand what our kids are going, what they're experiencing.

17:27

I read an article recently that said that so many of the symptoms and the things that kids are doing nowadays are similar to PTSD.

17:36

You know, our kids are experiencing some of the same pressures and stresses that people coming back from war are, are experiencing and why they're experiencing that is really,

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I think a big part too, not really the emphasis of this show, but for a good part for us to try to understand why is my kid feeling what they're feeling?

17:54

You know, sometimes I don't know that they have an histogram account. I don't know what they're seeing on there. And so we're going to talk, we are going to talk about that, about that later, but I just want to get your feedback on this too.

18:02

Cause in my experience with the, with the students I've worked with who attempted to cut,

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I've found that some of them kind of feel the need to pay penance. I like the old Catholic view of self -flagellation and whatnot.

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I've sinned. So I need to hurt myself. I know I've encountered some people who are like that. Some people

18:20

I think are just trying to distract themselves. You know, a lot of adults do that. They, they'll turn to alcohol. For me, when

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I was younger, I actually, one of my distraction things was sleep. I would go take a nap if I just wanted to escape the stress and the pressure of the situation.

18:34

And I think some kids use cutting in a similar way. I also read once in some research that I had picked up after the, the conference that you and I were at about the fact that really the physical process of harming yourself, if it's not an extreme type of a harm, but it is actually has a biological response that can be mildly enjoyable.

18:56

Is that right? Oh, yeah. I mean, the body is wired to deal with pain internally.

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And so when you injure yourself, your body creates these natural pain relieving mechanisms to relieve that and to bring some kind of desired effect.

19:12

And, you know, I think it's the anticipation of cutting the excitement, the man,

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I, you know, I can't wait to do this, that that's going on that excitement physiologically inside of the body.

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And then when they do it again, the pain receptors, the way God's wired our bodies, um, that relief comes in and it can be more powerful than any opioid that's on the market today.

19:37

Yeah. Wow. And that's an important thing for us to acknowledge. I also want to throw out there that, um, in the same, um, podcast that I mentioned earlier, uh, truth in love with Heath Lambert.

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Uh, it was episode one 37. Mark was just on that podcast and I, he gave a lot more fantastic information about cutting too.

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So I would encourage you to listen to that to get some more information. But I think the big key for us is that whether or not we can kind of quote unquote fit into our kid's shoes, we just need to understand that some people are tempted to hurt themselves when they're under pressure.

20:04

That's just a reality, uh, whether we comprehend it or not. Uh, so we first, like I mentioned earlier, we need to realize that this behavior is motivated by,

20:12

I think their greatest addiction, which is addiction to self -satisfaction. You know, some people self -medicate, some people steal, some people overeat, some people cut.

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So whether it's thieves or cutters, we as parents know they're worshipers, uh, who are worshiping the wrong gods.

20:26

All right. But many times, unless we see the cuts, we might not know our children has a problem with self harm if they can kind of veil it from us.

20:34

Um, but I guess, I guess my question is then, and maybe a lot of people have the same question, well, can I just look for the cuts?

20:40

Um, or will our children do a good job covering them up? I mean, imagine a younger child. It would be a lot easier to see, uh, during bath time or something like that if we, if you're, uh, if you're helping them in that process, but when they get older, it's harder.

20:51

So how hard is it normally? I mean, you saw that girl's arm as she reached your food out to you, but you know, how easy is it to see the cuts sometimes?

20:59

Yeah, that is a great issue. And, and I think it shows to the desire of the cutter to, to cover it up, to deceive, to, to lie about it, if you will.

21:10

I mean, it sounds like, um, it, it looks more like manipulation or whatever, but it's a, it's a planned deception.

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They know that it's wrong. That's my point there is, you know, anytime we're trying to cover something up and I think kids really do cover it up well, they hide it.

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They know it's wrong. They have a sense of that guilt. Uh, they might not know why it's wrong and they might not be

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Christians yet, you know, to know why it's wrong from a biblical perspective, but, uh, they know it's wrong.

21:41

They hide it. They wear long sleeves. They try to cut in places, uh, that no one could see.

21:46

I remember counseling about a 27 year old young lady who, uh, had done this for, you know, over 10 years and her parents, her husband, no one had any idea because of where she cut.

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It was always in a place that you couldn't see. Uh, she always did it in private, you know,

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Proverbs 18, one, the, the seeking your own desire and doing things, you know, in private.

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Um, and so she hit it so very well, but what brought it out was she used a knife and was really, really in an, in an emotional fit of anger and cut very deeply and just about died, you know, doing the due to bleeding out and they had to rush her to the hospital.

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And so it all kind of came out, but he or she had been doing this habitually for, uh, 12, 13, 14 years.

22:39

And, um, and so, yeah, they hide it. Uh, it's difficult to find. Um, it's difficult to know because they'll say, well,

22:47

I just bumped my head on, you know, some or bump my arm on something, you know, he's not on the head, but I bumped my arm on something and I did, you know, um, and they have a, they have a planned deceptive answer.

23:01

They're ready, you know, with their plan. They've, they've, that's why, you know, when the world deals with it as impulsive, uh, there might be an element of it that in an emotional, uh, fit of anger or, or, um, real depression that they act out in a way that looks impulsive, but there's a lot of planning that goes on before, during and after.

23:24

So true. I actually am familiar with that. Um, that you, did you write about that incident in a book?

23:29

Cause I think I read that. Yeah. And when I saw that, I thought to myself, man, oh man, think about that.

23:36

A husband didn't know that his wife was struggling with this for years. And that's why, that's why we're doing this episode.

23:42

We got to know, we have to have our eyes open. We have to be paying attention. We have to be asking the right questions, looking at the right things.

23:47

And this is why this is so valuable. So you might not be able to see the cutting. Okay.

23:52

You might not be able to see the evidence of it, especially if your child is older. You could just ask if they're self -harming, but from my experience and kind of like Mark alluded to, um, you know, they may like talking about it to their friends.

24:03

They may actually even post pictures of it on Instagram, but unless you, the parent already knows about the cutting, uh, generally the child isn't going to open up when asked, um, asking is not a bad start.

24:13

I mean, it does show you care. Um, if you already have a concern, if you've already noticed some things, um, at some point, you know, you're going to have to ask a question.

24:21

Um, so what are your experiences with that, Mark? You know, whether, whether they're asking out of complete ignorance, I'm not sure. Hey, but you know, it might just say to the kid,

24:27

Hey, have you ever been tempted to cut? Or maybe they say, Hey, I've seen this and I'm, and I'm kind of concerned.

24:33

What do you suggest we do when it does finally come time to ask? Yeah. I think parents shouldn't be afraid to ask.

24:39

I mean, how you ask, um, I mean, can kind of close the child down.

24:45

I mean, if you ask in a fit of anger or, uh, where you, you know, or asking a way that the kid knows, man, this is going to be bad.

24:53

I think just kind of talking about it, maybe even asking about, you know, do you have friends who are really struggling and cutting?

25:00

What, what are they cutting for? You know what, what's driving them and have your kids talk about it, you know, in a third person

25:07

Avenue. I mean, it's a little sneaky, but I think parents need, I think parents need to be wise as serpents, you know, and harmless as doves.

25:15

Um, and we, we do need to ask our kids and, and sometimes kids are waiting to be asked that specific question, you know, and, and that's when they'll answer it, but, um, they're kind of playing a game.

25:26

And so parents, I don't think need to be afraid of answering, asking the question because the, of the answer they may hear, it may be very discouraging to hear that.

25:35

Or the parent might think, Oh no, I've got a, a child who's mentally ill. That's, that's not a, that's not it at all.

25:42

The child needs to talk. They need counsel who better to get it from than their parents or, or a biblical counselor, a pastor in the church, somebody like that, who can really encourage the child to think biblically about these issues.

25:55

That's so true. And also don't not ask because you're afraid of possibly introducing these ideas to your kid.

26:02

You know, like, you know, we talked about this when we've discussed, uh, previous episodes, pornography and things and sexuality, some parents don't want to talk about it because they don't want to be the ones to give their kids the ideas that's likely not going to be the issue.

26:13

And so if you're asking your kid, Hey, you know, do you ever heard of cutting? Have your friends ever talked about cutting? Don't not ask, um, because you're concerned, uh, that they're going to hear it first from you.

26:23

Uh, what you're able to do then is actually lay a foundation for what it is and how we should think biblically, just like Mark was saying about how he and his kids, after going to a, a spiritually focused event, uh, they, they sit down and they debrief, you know, they talk about what was, what was true and what was false and things like that.

26:40

And we need to be doing that with our kids. Uh, so, you know, it may be hard to spot the cuts, um, and asking may or may not reveal anything.

26:47

Okay. But don't lose hope. I believe that are some things for which we can look that, um, they may betray that your child has a problem with self harm.

26:55

Again, on episode 114, we discuss that addictions have core symptoms and peripheral symptoms.

27:00

Okay. The primary addiction we know is self -worship. We know that the core symptoms are behaviors that point directly to the secondary addiction.

27:09

Okay. A core symptom that all addiction share is preoccupation. We talked about that last time. For example, if you look at your child's

27:15

Instagram account and you see that she's posted a bunch of images featuring, you know, cutting paraphernalia, uh, words and ideas and song lyrics that refer to cutting images of people with, you know, prominent scars and such.

27:26

Well then what you're probably witnessing is a preoccupation with cutting. They, they may not be doing it, but it's definitely a preoccupation and it's probably going to lead in that direction.

27:34

Uh, and you start to see, uh, that what their main struggle is. So Mark help us out, you know, as parents, as we're looking for these other types of preoccupations, what can we be looking for that will help us deduce if our child may be having the struggle?

27:49

The, um, the desire is to remove unpleasant conditions from life. I remember a quote from princess

27:55

Diana, you have so much pain inside of yourself and you just try and hurt yourself on the outside because you need help.

28:02

So I think that is what they're trying to do is transfer emotional pain into something that they can control.

28:11

They think, um, and they hope they can control and they can feel on the outside. So these peripheral, uh, changes often are, um, you know, getting away, getting alone.

28:22

I think of Proverbs 18 one that talks about that. Um, so there they might escape from family conversations and kind of, uh, be in a place where they're brooding or thinking about being bullied that day at school.

28:38

And, um, and they're just afraid to, I think fear is a big thing too. And so they're afraid to, to tell people about it.

28:45

They're afraid of not being perfect or being, uh, you know, something's wrong with me.

28:51

And, and again, not knowing how to deal with it, being kind of overwhelmed by that and anxious. So, uh, fear is a big thing that expresses itself in these, uh, pre, uh, you know, these, these, um, transformational, uh, peripheral symptoms as you call it.

29:08

I really liked that podcast or that episode at one 14. I thought it was really excellent.

29:13

Um, I thought it was great information and that's what their parents need to be looking for.

29:19

You know, are they withdrawing? And, and I think as parents, you know, I think about God, the father who sent his own son to be with us.

29:28

I mean, God sent his son to be at our level with us to enter in. And I think as parents, especially as fathers, we need to enter into our kid's world.

29:37

Now that doesn't mean playing video games all of the time. Although I, I, I do enjoy that, you know, with my kids or whatever, playing basketball, but, but entering into their world and trying to understand them and the pressures that they're under, because it's different than when

29:51

I was a kid. I mean, there were, there were pressures when I was a kid, but it was, they were different. And so, uh, understanding my kids and their struggles and, and so forth, um,

30:01

I think is important. And so, yeah, I mean, any of these peripheral symptoms, any of these things that are going on with them, where they are making changes that are, are significant withdrawing or getting in with the wrong crowd.

30:14

I think parents, we have to be so careful about the, the kids that we, um, have our children's, you know, uh, be around.

30:23

I mean, um, not that there's no perfect kid out there, you know? Um, and I like for certain conflicts and things to rise so that we can try to resolve them biblically, you know, with, with the kids.

30:36

But there are kids that I think are already immersed in a lifestyle of, uh, wickedness and addiction, uh, in, in terms of chemical addictions and that kind of thing.

30:46

And so as parents, we need to, uh, lay down the law and make sure our kids understand,

30:52

Hey, you don't need to be around this person or that person. You need to be careful who you're surrounding yourself with, or, or I really don't want you to be around that person.

31:01

Yeah. And I think, I think that kind of exposes two issues that we have. One issue is that sometimes we're just not paying attention enough.

31:09

We're not noticing those transformational, uh, symptoms or this kid is making this, this change and he's hanging out with a new group or he's just acting differently, spending more time in his room.

31:18

Sometimes we just go, Oh, he's just in a phase or that's just what happens when they hit the teen years and things like that. And I think all of that's really dangerous.

31:26

I think it's foolish when we parents, uh, miss, uh, those key things that are going on. Um, but also sometimes too,

31:33

I think something that happens is that we address the peripheral symptom, uh, without realizing that that it may be a symptom of something deeper.

31:40

It's not a core thing. It's something, the core thing is something else. Um, you know, I've, I've met parents who, um, they address the self deprecating speech.

31:47

They address the secret of behavior, but they address it like it's the core issue. Like there's no other issue beyond it.

31:53

They don't realize that it's, it's just a symptom of a deeper issue. So I think those are two temptations we as parents face when we see these, uh, these, uh, other issues in our kids' lives, we don't realize that a, it's potentially pointing to something much deeper, which ultimately is going to be self -worship.

32:09

Um, and then B, when we just kind of deal with that surface thing and we move on, or, or I guess the other side of that is that we just don't see it at all.

32:16

And that's, I think huge issues. Uh, but in order to kind of round out our list a little bit more, I think some more things that you parents can be listening and watching for is, you know, is there, what is their music promoting?

32:26

Man, we've talked a lot on this show about knowing what your kid's music is all about. Uh, I really think you need to do that because sometimes they're just filling their minds with these ideas that they never thought of before.

32:38

And it just kind of becomes cool and it comes cool because their music told them it was cool. Also look for implements.

32:44

This is an interesting one. I once had a boy who took a knife, but he didn't take the knife to cut himself.

32:52

He took the knife so that he could sharpen a golf tee.

32:58

He found a wooden golf tee and he took the knife, sharpened the wooden golf tee so that he could use the golf tee to cut himself.

33:07

I found, and like Mark already alluded to it, there's, there's a very systematic, there's oftentimes a very planned out type of a approach to cutting.

33:15

And it's, it's almost like, um, like almost a worship service in a way. Everything's set up, it's all right where it needs to be.

33:23

So look for those things. Look for things that just kind of seem out of place. Why would there be a sharpened golf tee in your child's room?

33:29

Things like that. Also, I think it's really important to see if your children are drawing on themselves. I know it's like second nature, kids doodle on themselves and whatnot, but I found,

33:38

I don't know about you, Mark, I found that some people draw on themselves to actually mask that they've been cutting. They may use a red pen or a dark

33:45

Sharpie or something like that to kind of cover that up. And like you mentioned earlier, too, the, uh, the, the wearing of long clothes, these are all just things

33:53

I think that we can, uh, uh, be looking at to say, Hey, you know, my kid, he's wearing long sleeve shirt and long pants in the middle of summer.

34:01

You know, I guess depending on where you live, that might be normal. But in most places, I think we kind of be like, huh, what's going on with this?

34:07

So any other, um, things on your list, things that, you know, hopefully could stick out to a parent as being something that really should grab their mind and have them ask the next question.

34:16

Well, you, you hit on a big one, I think with music and just thinking about like a lot of rap artists, uh, promote pill popping and, and, you know, drug money and all that kind of stuff.

34:28

So what they're listening to and what, how they're starting to wear their clothes, uh, and their look and, and the long sleeve shirts, all that kind of stuff is great.

34:39

And parents just need to be attentive. Like you said, that was great. Awesome. Yeah. And it's, it's huge.

34:45

We just need to be a premeditated intentional parents. All right. So this insights really helpful for me. I'm really appreciating this.

34:51

Um, so it's true that we parents, you know, we can so easily miss the indicators that reveal our kids are worshiping themselves, but beyond equipping us with the knowledge to spot the self harm.

35:03

Uh, I'd like for you to take a moment to help us understand really just the best way to parent our children.

35:08

Let's just say that we've, we've figured it out. Okay. We've, we've discussed it. We've even potentially approached our children.

35:15

It's out on the table and you know, we were, we're wanting to deal with it. And like you've said, I think a lot of parents get scared.

35:21

They, uh, they think, Oh no, my, my child has a mental disorder or something like that. And they feel ill equipped to deal with this.

35:28

So I have four questions. I really like you to help us answer. Number one, what biblical truth can we bring to bear on the situation?

35:36

Number two, what additional help should we seek if we discover our kids are hurting themselves?

35:42

Because I mean, yes, we are equipped by God to handle this, but we might not have all of the information we need.

35:48

Number three, how can we help our kids not become addicted to self -injury? You know, if, if my child isn't to that point yet, what can, are things that I can do to help them?

35:57

And then number four, how can we help them break the cycle once they've started?

36:03

So this is kind of the four questions I'd like to, to really look at in the, with our remaining time.

36:08

So let's start with the first one. What biblical truth do you think, generally speaking, we can bring to bear on this situation?

36:15

Yeah, generally, I think you want to do all kinds of teaching on, uh, the suffering and how to handle suffering and to understand how, uh, in the

36:26

Bible, different, uh, persons mentioned in the words of, uh, on, uh, of scripture, how different people had to deal with suffering and, uh, for the cause of Christ.

36:37

And so, you know, I think about Bible verses, Ecclesiastes 1, 9, and 10, reminds parents that what has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done.

36:48

And there is nothing new under the sun. So this issue isn't something new. And it, um, it's been around for a long time.

36:55

The verse, verse continues, is there a thing of which it is said, see, this is new. It has already been, uh, in the ages before us.

37:03

So parents don't need to panic, uh, understanding that this is an issue that's been around a long time.

37:08

And then I think understanding pagan worship, and you think, you think, well, okay, yeah, that's, uh, but I think in Leviticus, you know,

37:17

Leviticus 19, 28, God warned them about making cuts on their body for the dead or tattooing themselves.

37:24

I am the Lord. And Leviticus 21, 5 is very similar, too, of making cuts on your body for the purpose of mourning the dead.

37:34

And so I think the reason I deal with this issue is more of a grieving issue, again, handling suffering, feeling ignored or unappreciated, bullied, overwhelmed, overpowered, etc.,

37:46

etc. I think all of that is very similar to how pagans grieve the dead.

37:52

And so I think, you know, my booklet and other booklets talk about that. And people can certainly use those scriptures in a way to break it down at a child's level.

38:02

But we're not to grieve as though we have no hope. And so for the

38:08

Christian, you know, I have a grandmother right now who's not doing well in the hospital, and she may die.

38:14

But the belief is she's a Christian, and she's going to be with the Lord in heaven. And so we grieve our loss, you know, selfishly,

38:24

I guess. We grieve our loss, potentially, here in this situation. But we also celebrate her going on to be with the

38:32

Lord. And so I think the biblical truth that has to bear in all these situations is having a perspective from God's view rather than our view helps us a lot.

38:44

And we have to instill that in our kids. They don't come pre -wired with that. We have to help them to understand.

38:50

Yeah, we just have to help them understand biblical passages that bring hope, that bring a different perspective.

38:57

And it's a biblical perspective. That's what the kids need. And parents just have to do that faithfully day by day by day.

39:05

I was thinking, you know, I've taught for a long time, and my kids go with me on a lot of the trips.

39:11

And, you know, I've taught this stuff everywhere. And it's always amazing to me. We'll be driving home, and somebody will say,

39:17

Dad, you mentioned XYZ tonight, you know. And I've mentioned that, you know, the same story, the same thing, you know, a hundred times they've heard it.

39:27

But for whatever reason, it clicked that particular night. And I think parenting is the same way.

39:33

We've got to constantly just bring up themes, bring up truths, bring up biblical principles for our kids to hear all the time, hoping that at some point it's going to penetrate the heart, and they're going to get it.

39:50

But, you know, there's tons of biblical truth that I think help kids to understand that they are valuable in Christ, because they're an image bearer of God, that they represent

40:00

God, and that they should live for God, and that they want to see life from God's view, not from our view.

40:08

And kids can get it sometimes better than adults. Yeah, that's definitely true. And this kind of actually is tying in a little bit now with our third question, how can we help our kids not become addicted to self -injury?

40:19

Because I think in many ways, what we, the truth that we bring to bear into the life of a child who is struggling with it, is the same truth that we need to start bringing into the lives of kids who aren't struggling with it yet.

40:31

I mean, some kid comes home from school having had a really stressful, high -pressure day, how they're going to handle that, even if they're not tempted to cut themselves, right?

40:40

They're still going to be tempted, likely to handle that in an inappropriate way. So bringing the biblical truth to bear in their lives that will help them to deal with that in a

40:48

Christ -honoring way will not only help the children who are handling it the wrong way, but also hopefully prepare a child to not take it to the next step and to do something like self -harm.

40:58

So that's definitely very true. One passage I like to use is the story of Elijah. You know, you've got the prophets of Baal and that huge mountaintop experience.

41:07

Well, then Elijah just goes running off into the wilderness, and he's kind of like pre -suicidal.

41:13

He's actually saying, you know, I just wish I were dead. And he's really in a bout of what we call depression at that moment.

41:20

He's not handling the stress well. Even having God do this miraculous work, he's struggling with this.

41:26

And this is informative for us parents. I mean, just because our kids are quote -unquote doing well, just because they're leaders in the youth group or whatnot, doesn't mean that they're not going to be tempted with these thoughts and have these struggles.

41:39

But secondly, you can guide your child through how God got Elijah back to where he was supposed to be.

41:44

See how God interacted with Elijah. See what he drew Elijah's mind to. And then we see Elijah going back out and doing the work of the

41:50

Lord. So yeah, keeping that truth in your kid's life, teaching them all the time how to handle stress and pressure and trials.

41:57

And we're studying James right now. You know, count it all joy when you fall into diverse temptations.

42:03

You know, what does that look like? Helping your kid understand that. Okay, now the second question was, assuming if we ever find that our kids are hurting themselves, what additional help should we as parents seek?

42:15

You know, if we don't have the experience and haven't worked the jobs that you've worked and haven't been trained in this, we have what we need to parent them, but what additional help should we be looking for?

42:24

I think I read or my wife told me about, that's probably the truth of it.

42:31

She told me about a study that they did that kids need four or five different adult voices in their lives.

42:43

And so I think, you know, what better than to go to the church to try to find like -minded friends in the church or a pastor, a deacon.

42:53

And I'm thinking friends, like go to the church and find a couple of ladies who would sit down and meet with a teenage girl, you know, your daughter who they could disciple and spend time with her, be another voice in your child's life.

43:12

And so I think that's, I try to get my kids around adults, friends a lot so that they can speak the same message that mom and dad speak, but this adult, they'll hear it from a different adult than they would their parents.

43:27

So I think that's a resource. You know, if it's severe cutting and trouble,

43:33

I think you've got to go seek out biblical counseling to try to get to the heart of the issue and what's going on with the kid.

43:40

I mean, it could be that the kid was abused in some way, and there's a multitude of ways that can happen, and they just don't know how to deal with it.

43:49

And so parents need to try to investigate that or let a counselor investigate that and provide the help that the kid needs.

43:59

But there are lots of ways. I mean, and parents, I think, need to be aware of knives and utensils like that that could be used for self -harm.

44:11

At Vision of Hope, when we worked with the ladies there, we had all the knives accounted for.

44:17

We kept them in the same place. We didn't, we counted them after every meal, you know, so there were a lot of detailed work that we did in that residential program for young ladies that offered them a safer place or at least a place that they were more accountable for their actions and trying to limit the opportunities for that.

44:41

But it's, I mean, what's hard about this is, you know, you can take a paperclip or something like that and harm yourself.

44:48

So, and kids are sharp, you know, they're, I mean, they're very intelligent. Sharp's probably not the word to pick there, but I wasn't trying to be funny or whatever, but no, kids are really smart and they know what to, you know, what'll work and what won't work.

45:07

And so I think parents need to not be ashamed of it or afraid of it and go to their church, their pastor, a biblical counselor, friends in the church.

45:17

And if they have to go to counseling, I mean, it's much better to go to biblical counseling than to secular counseling, because,

45:26

I mean, that could create a whole, another set of problems, I think, because the kids are going to believe that this expert knows what they're talking about and the expert's going to point them to self, which is the whole core issue of their addiction is the preoccupation with self.

45:45

So they've got to seek out help in the church and not be embarrassed. I mean, the church ought to be the one place that people go for help and not have the pride that keeps them from it, you know, the shame and so forth, but the church needs to be the place we go for help.

46:00

Amen. Amen. And a lot of what you were saying kind of also ties into our fourth question, how can we help them break the cycle once they've started?

46:09

Now, I mean, there are, I mean, there are tons of answers we could give in this situation. It's oftentimes dependent.

46:14

Sometimes you have to bring in an outside source or, you know, they're getting biblical counseling and whatnot. I think little kids who pick scabs is something that's frequent with little children and self harm.

46:24

I think there are different things that you can do with them that you can do with older kids who are using blades to cut themselves and so on.

46:31

But yeah, so a lot of the things that you've discussed have kind of answered that question. What else might you say though to help them break the cycle?

46:38

Obviously the issue is self and when you give up on self and you turn to God, that temptation flees only in the moments when you're tempted back to worship self.

46:49

Are you going to be tempted to satisfy yourself in your own way? But what are some things that might be,

46:55

I'm just going to be honest, what are some things that might be a band -aid that can help to maybe break the cycle that can help the child start to focus on something else?

47:04

Yeah. I mean, any of this that we're talking about probably is a more of a behavioral band -aid than a real heart change.

47:12

But I think you've got to get them to stop doing the behavior. That's the first thing.

47:19

And as they begin to stop, as you limit their access to being alone, maybe they need to be with a buddy all day.

47:28

You're just going to have to stay close to your sister all day to day or somebody at school or you have to make other people aware of the issue.

47:39

I mean, that's just part of it. But loneliness, getting alone is a super huge temptation for them and an opportunity.

47:49

So you keep them with someone. And I think you've got to fill their minds with praise music and positive music rather than the ideas on television, the ideas in the music industry that promote self and promote harm, really, and brooding and all that.

48:11

I mean, if I watch the news all morning, I'll be depressed all day. So I think we've got to help them with just immediate, quick things that kind of change the behavior first outwardly.

48:26

But then we've got to attack the self -reliant attitudes, the lies they're believing, the victim mentality, the brooding, the perfectionism of thinking that they have to have a nose that looks a certain way, like a certain movie star, which probably isn't a real birth nose anyway.

48:47

And kids think like children. So I think parents have to ask questions to draw them out.

48:55

I don't think parents do a good job of that. I know my wife and I both could improve in this area of drawing our kids out and asking them questions and getting to know them because they're thinking about things very differently than we are and creating an atmosphere of radical, extravagant grace where our kids can talk about things that are kind of ugly, but they know we'll love them and we can have an open forum and it doesn't change our relationship, but we need to talk about these things.

49:29

I think parents sometimes are so alarmed that we want to just throw a hand grenade of Bible truth at our kids and say, well, you should never do that and you shouldn't think that.

49:39

That's not going to be productive as much as drawing them out. Jesus did that.

49:45

You look at the woman at the well and how Jesus handled that whole situation. He didn't just start off where he ended with her.

49:55

The guy you're with right now, he's not your husband. He didn't start with that.

50:00

He started, give me a drink of water. He kind of entered into her world in the place that she was in a way that she could receive it.

50:11

He developed a relationship with her and she began to see who he really was.

50:18

Then he got to the place where he called her to repentance in a very loving way for her own benefit.

50:27

I think parents can learn a lot from how Jesus interacted with other people and we need to do that with our kids.

50:36

Man, that is just a wonderful place to finish up because that is so powerful to be a safe place for your kids where you do speak the truth in love, where you become a truth love parent, where you're parenting the way

50:51

God's called us to That idea of a safe place is so huge. Your kids need to feel comfortable coming to you and talking about sex and talking about drugs and talking about what the kids are saying at school and talking about their struggles.

51:04

Man, that hit the nail right on the head. I really, really am very thankful for your insight. I appreciate it.

51:10

I know my audience is as well. Last question here, are there any additional resources you'd like to tell us about as no doubt there are some parents listening today who know for certain their child is cutting and they just want to know more about God's mind on the subject?

51:25

Yeah, there are resources. There weren't as many as there are today.

51:31

That's the blessing of the Biblical Council Movement. People like yourself are creating content, podcasts.

51:38

I think the one that you mentioned, I think it was 114. That's great for parents to understand the heart behind this.

51:49

I think specific to self -harm, I have a little booklet that I wrote, Hope and Help for Self Injury for Cutters.

51:56

I think it's the title of that. I have that little booklet. Ed Welch has a booklet on self -harm.

52:02

Jeremy Lellick has a booklet on it as well as Amy Baker. You could get all four of those little booklets.

52:11

It's kind of funny that we all wrote booklets on that. I didn't know that there were any booklets out there when

52:16

I wrote mine. Other than Ed's, I knew Ed's was out there. Those kind of resources,

52:23

I think, are not long reads. They kind of help you to enter into the child's world, to be a safe place, and to figure out what's really going on.

52:31

Again, my approach is the mourning, the dead, the hopelessness, the despair, the overpowered feelings.

52:41

Parents have a big responsibility, but God's given us the resources we need from His Word to help our kids think about life from a biblical perspective rather than from the perspective of hurt and self and just really self -addiction.

53:01

You've hit on that. There are lots of good things. The Truth and Love podcast that Heath Lambert does are great.

53:09

I think Johnny Erickson and Tata, if there's one person I want my kids to read, not that maybe people might not agree with everything theologically that Johnny teaches, but boy, if there's anybody who understands suffering and physical disability and limitations,

53:29

I want my kids to understand being in a wheelchair all day.

53:36

I thought about, let's bring a kids just sit in a wheelchair and be in a wheelchair all day just to experience it.

53:45

You can't get up. You can't go to the bathroom as easily. There's all kinds of obstacles and all that.

53:51

I think Johnny really helps me to be thankful when I read her and I appreciate more of how she handles suffering.

53:59

I think that's what we have to do with our kids is help them to see that there are many people less fortunate than us in lots of ways.

54:07

Here's Johnny. When I met her in December, she is such a gifted, gifted individual.

54:15

She sings and she just moves on. I thought, wow, I haven't met someone this gifted in a long time.

54:21

Forget that she's in a wheelchair. She is an incredible person and joyful.

54:28

I thought it just brought conviction into my own heart. I think our kids need that as well.

54:33

They need to understand that there are people in more difficult, more challenging situations, but they handle suffering in a godly, biblical way.

54:42

Yeah. Yeah. Get your eyes off of self. I know what you're talking about with Johnny Erickson Tata. In fact, everything you're saying here,

54:48

I think is super important. I did an episode really early on called The Most Important Thing I Can Say to Parents. That was just about equipping yourself, learning more, researching, studying, growing because it's so easy to not put the necessary amount of research into the most important calling.

55:05

One of the most important callings that we have, and that is to parent our children. Thank you so much, Mark, for all of this.

55:11

I really praise God for your ministry, what you've done, what he's going to use you for in the future. What you're doing is beautiful.

55:19

For God's calling on your life to parent your own kids, I loved hearing your little anecdotes and what you're doing with them and things like that.

55:25

That was an encouragement to me. Just thank you so much for taking the time this morning. Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate your ministry.

55:31

Great. God will continue to bless it, brother. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you so much to you listeners for spending all this time with us today.

55:38

As usual, when we have a special guest, there are no episode notes or transcript, but there are plenty of amazing biblical

55:45

Christ -honoring resources available, and I encourage you to check them out. Now on our next episode, we'll be discussing why why is more important than what.

55:54

It's an idea we've kicked around, but I want to take a little bit more time with it. We all know the power of asking questions. We talked about that today, but so many people say that why questions aren't as good as what questions.

56:04

About what are they talking, and why is why so important? And don't forget to check out Dr. Shaw's links in the description, and if you haven't connected with us on social media or with him, for what on earth are you waiting?

56:16

I just don't understand it. And if you'd like some more specific assistance with your unique family struggles, please send an email to counselor at truthloveparent .com.

56:25

Self -harm seems gross and strange, but it grows from the same addiction with which you and I struggle.

56:32

Don't fear the fruit, just parent the root. Have a great week. Truth. Love.

56:39

Parent. is part of the Evermind Ministries family and is dedicated to helping you become an intentional premeditated parent.

56:49

Join us next time as we search God's word for the truth your family needs today.