July 21, 2017 Show with Israel Wayne on “Education: Does God Have An Opinion?”

The Purpose of Education as Knowing and Serving God

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 21st day of July 2017.

I just came back from a wonderful reunion with my niece Patrice, my niece Patrice who is the oldest of two daughters of my oldest brother John, and I have not seen Patrice since 1995, and not only did I see my niece Patrice for the first time since 1995, I met for the very first time ever four of her seven children, and her children that I met today for the first time are Gabrielle who is 18, Elisha who is 14, Nathaniel who is 10, and Shiloh who is 5, and we all paid a visit to my other brother Andy, my second oldest brother, over at the Forest Park Nursing Facility, and what a blessed time I had, and I am so thankful to God that quite a long time ago our Lord was pleased to save Patrice, and she married a wonderful Christian man, and they just celebrated their 25th wedding anniversary, and they are raising their children in the Christian faith, and it does my heart a lot of joy to know that, but that is actually connected to our subject today, and that is our subject with Israel Wayne who I am interviewing today for the first time.

The subject is his book, Education, Does God Have an Opinion?, and Israel Wayne is a conference speaker. He's a regular columnist for Home School Digest, Home School Enrichment, and the Old School House magazines.

He's a site editor for ChristianWorldview .net, an author of a number of books including Full-Time Parenting, A Guide to Family-Based Discipleship, Questions God Asks, Questions Jesus Asks, and Pitching a Fit, Overcoming Angry and Stressed-Out Parenting, and more, and as I said, we are discussing his book, Education, Does God Have an Opinion?, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time, Israel Wayne.

Thank you, Chris. It's a blessing to be on your show. Also joining me again, Steve Schultz has been a guest on our program in the past, and he is going to be a guest again in the future, but today he is serving as one of two co-hosts with me as we interview Israel Wayne.

Steve Schultz is headmaster at Grace Christian Academy of Long Island, located in Merrick, New York, and this is a classical Christian school, and it's affiliated with the congregation where I was formerly a member, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Radio, Steve Schultz.

Great, and in studio with me is my more regular co-host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Hello, it's great to be here, and I love the subject. Great, and our email address, if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for our guest, Israel Wayne, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA, and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter, and I could see a subject like this very easily lending itself to a private and sensitive question, so if it is about something like that, you may feel free to remain anonymous, but otherwise please give us your first name, at least your city and state and country.

Israel Wayne’s Testimony and Early Life

Well, Israel, what I typically do when I interview guests for the first time is I ask them to give our listeners something of a summary of your own personal testimony of salvation, what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in as a child, and what were the providential circumstances that our Lord used to draw you to himself and save you?

Ah, great question. Well,.

My background is, I'll try to simplify it as much as I possibly could, but my upbringing is kind of dualistic, I guess I would say. When my parents got married, mother was not a Christian, and so their marriage only lasted about six years, and then they divorced at the time that I was born, essentially, but when my mother remarried after my parents divorced, she married a non-Christian and it was a very abusive situation, and I was in a very toxic, very heavily physically abusive relationship with my stepfather from the age of about six to fifteen, and so during that time, though, my mother and I never ended up going because of the fact that homeschooling was illegal in those days, it was against the law to teach your children at home in the United States, in almost every state back then, and a couple of times where we were given an ultimatum that we, my mother either had to put us into a, taken away from her situation, and then we would, of course, be forcibly put into government education, and so my mother chose a private Christian, second grade and sixth grade, but never ended up being in government education at all.

I was bored from the time that I was a young child, and I think I first asked Christ to save me when I was three, and then I was baptized when I was seven, and I never abandoned the Christian faith, and some people say it's not possible for somebody to be saved that young.

I don't know exactly where we find that in the scripture, but...

John the Baptist might have been in the womb, right?

...hand on my life throughout that time and relationship that I was in. I had to ask myself, you know, am I embracing the Christian faith simply because, you know, do I embrace, and my mother, soon after that, and myself, and my sister, my mother's conversion, experiencing covenant with the Lord was pretty radical, and the trajectory of what I'm doing now, we have a ministry called to the issues that relate to the family, marriage, and parenting, and education, and those issues, they're too messed up, they're too dysfunctional, and God can't really do anything with them, and it's to say to change anybody's situation.

Great, and before I move on, I'd like to also have one of our co-hosts, Steve Schultz, just give a little plug, in your own words, for Grace Christian Academy on Long Island in Merrick, New York.

Well, great, and for anybody who wants to look up information about Grace Christian Academy later on.

After the program, the website is gcali .com. G-C-A for Grace Christian Academy, L-I dot com. Well, Israel, and by the way, Steve, since I cannot see you, you can just butt in any time, as long as you're not entering into a sentence midstream, but in any time that you have a question to ask of our guest, Israel Wayne, because obviously, I'm not going to be able to see you raising your hand or anything like that, since you're on the phone, and obviously, I think a good place to start off, Israel, would be the purpose of education.

The Purpose of Education Is to Know, Love, and Serve God

What is it?

And the way I think about it is that I think of life as being like a pie, and if you can identify what kind of pie you have, if you take a pie, I live in southwest Michigan, where we grow more blueberries than anywhere else in the world, so that would be a blueberry pie, and we slice that pie up into eight different slices.

If I take one slice of that pie and I give you a slice from that pie, you will know definitively what kind of pie you're getting. If you know what's true for the whole, you know that what is true for the whole is also true for the sum of all its parts, and so when you think about the question of education, education is a slice of our life.

You know, think of work, you can think of relationships, you know, our hobbies, all of those slices of who we are, how we allocate our time, but all of them should be integrated. They should be consistent with the main purpose of our life.

I think, honestly, Heart 1636, when they were founded, their original mission statement says it pretty well. It says that every student should be earnestly pressed to consider well the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, John 17 3, and to lay Christ as the foundation for all sound knowledge and learning.

So the reason that we're here is predominantly to know God, to love Him, and to obey and serve Him, and then we do that through practical application and loving and serving other people. So my family actually has a mission statement, and we have a poster that's on our wall, and it says, in our living room, and it says, we exist to know, love, and serve God, and love, and serve other people.

So the reason we educate our children, love, and serve the God who created everything, who made all these different academic disciplines, and then to be equipped practically to go out in the world and bless other people in the name of Christ, to glorify God.

With their knowledge and with their talent. And what about government schooling, commonly called public schools, which ironically in the UK, I believe they call private schools public schools, but there seems to be a mixture of opinion amongst those in the body of Christ in regard to sending their children to public schools.

Some think that this is a way for their children to be salt and light in the world as Christians, if they are indeed Christians, and they think that is a good way to help them develop social skills and discover what it's like to be in the midst of the world with opposing views to Christianity and so on.

What is your view of that?

The Government School Model and Its Competing End

Each of those, I think, first of all, I'd like to kind of identify what the purpose of an education would be from the government education model. Sure. And 80 to 90 percent of all viewpoint by involved in teaching children.

But when you look at that form of education, you ask parents, why are you sending your children to school? Why are you teaching them? Why are you educating them? About 80 percent of all Christian parents will say, well, I'm educating them so that they can, you know, get good grades and learn things and have good information so that they can.

And I say, okay, awfully hard to get a job. I say, well, why do you need a job? And they say, well, it's important to have a job because if you don't have a job, then how are you going to make money? I say, well, what do you need money for?

Why is it important to make money? They say, well, and if you don't make money, how are you going to pay the bills? I mean, the people that these questions, they basically stop there. Like, they don't have a way to even think beyond that question.

Self-evident, like, well, that's what you do. That's why we're here. That's why we're living is because we're supposed to work a job and support our family. What else is there? It's really the American dream.

And what I see is the teachings of Jesus and the apostles kind of turn everything on its head and say that none of those things about the difference between ends and means. And we tend to look at a lot of things as ends that really are not.

And so even a job, even money, for what end? Well, I would suggest going back to the purpose of life, that there are means for us to know, love and serve God and love and serve other people. That's why we're here.

So ultimately, if I can break it down this way, you really only have two models. You're here to know, love and serve God and love and serve other people, or you're here to know, love and serve. Essentially, that's the mantra between K -12.

Even if they're Christian, of my time and my money to Jesus, and then the rest of all this life, become a bondservant.

Or a greater purpose. And could you tell us something about the state of the government schools throughout the country? I'm assuming that there would be some areas of the United States where the agenda has been more dominated by leftism.

I don't even use the term much anymore, liberalism, because so much of what we see is not liberalism. Because liberals, at least the classic liberals of years ago, believed that conservative ideas and Christian ideas were an acceptable voice in the town square and the table of exchanging ideas and so on.

Now, you have what is more resembling of leftist totalitarianism, where many and not only your average household, but those even more dangerously in positions of authority in government want to just remove our voice and our opinions from the town square, from public hearing, from elected office, etc.

But if you could tell us what you know about the state schools.

Across the nation. I think there are pockets, obviously, of the country. The northeast is going to be way more liberal. People who are involved, there is a concept that people have, especially if they happen to live in an area that might be marked by more conservative people.

There's a belief system that I hear all the time. If you ask people, what do you think about government education on a national basis? Almost anybody, anywhere, I'll tell you it's in trouble. Academically, there are issues with it.

Morally, in math, school district. I don't think I've ever been in government schools that does not firmly believe that they live in a... It's interesting because he and I did a tour. It's a heavy church.

You've got the Assembly of God at their national headquarters. This guy went in and he took out the request and showed it on PowerPoint. He said, I'm just going to read you this. This is required reading.

I got this out of your school's library. Just let me read this to you. He would start reading from it. The people complained to the pastors at the church and said, these people should not be allowed to come here and speak in our church.

They were using profanity and reading what essentially amounts to poorly put out. They should not be allowed to come here and speak those words that you don't have.

I was just curious if I could ask my co-host Steve Schultz a question about children leaving the government school systems to enter into enrollment in Grace Christian Academy. What kind of things have you heard from parents who are making that decision?

LGBT schools have been... I say it that way, but worldview. They'll need to make an alternative.

And we're going to go to a break right now. If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question, and we do have a number of people who have already lined up to have their questions asked and answered by you, Israel.

But if anybody else would like to join them, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. Don't go away. God willing, we will be right back with Israel Wayne and our discussion on, Education, Does God Have an Opinion? A Biblical Apologetic for Christian Education and Homeschooling.

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And for those of you who just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with about 90 minutes to go, is Israel Wain. We are discussing his book, Education, Does God Have an Opinion? A biblical apologetic for Christian education and homeschooling, co-hosting with me is Steve Schultz, the headmaster of Grace Christian Academy of Long Island in Merrick, New York, and also in studio co-hosting is the Rev. Buzz Taylor.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. If you have a question for Israel Wain, and perhaps even for Steve Schultz, and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

Otherwise, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. We have a question for you, Israel, from Daniel in San Jose, California. He says, Hello, brother. I am a father of two young boys and another child on the way.

Lord willing. Christian education and discipleship is very important to my wife and I, who are new to homeschooling. We are struggling on what curriculum to use. Can you shed some light on how to choose the right curriculum and how to get the most out of homeschooling?

Also, I live in California, and sending my sons to a public school is out of the question because of what is taught at schools today. Should I completely keep my kids away from what is taught in the secular schools, for example, evolution, or is it beneficial to educate them on such subjects?

So you've got a couple of questions there, Israel.

Choosing a Biblical Curriculum and Teaching Evolution Critically

Yeah, great. Well, thank you for your question, and I'm excited to hear about your commitment to discipling your children. That's very refreshing. I'd like to abstain from mentioning any particular curriculum publishers, although I have biases to avoid promoting one over another.

I'll just say that you want to look for a publisher that is specifically integrating a biblical worldview into every aspect of their curriculum. Most of the major Christian publishers who produce K -12 curriculum, I think, do this fairly.

I would recommend, I don't know where you live in California, but there is a conference you can go to that's in Sacramento, and it used to be one in San Jose. I've spoken at that one in the past, but there's one I'm going to speak at as a keynote for 2018, and it's called Schooling in Sacramento.

You can find out about their homeschooling conference, and at that conference, you can go and actually look at the curriculum. You can pick it up. You can browse through it, and that'll help you in making the selection of what you actually choose.

On the aspect of teaching evolution, I think it's vital for Christian young people to be taught about the theory of evolution. I think the problem with government schooling is that it teaches that evolution is true.

My wife and I homeschool. We have nine children. My children know about the theory of evolution, and we talk about it frequently and extensively, and we're not afraid to talk about the viewpoints of the other side, but we don't present that as being truth.

I think it's really difficult for children, started again with 10 ,000 to 14 ,000 hours of a narrative that says that everything that exists came out of an explosion and then flowed out of the primordial soup to where we are today, confused when they have that narrative that's just impressed on them over and over and over, not just through school but through television, social media, everywhere, and then they go to church and their parents tell them, ah, we don't believe that stuff.

I think they feel like, okay, so these Christians just don't know anything about science, and I think it's important for us because we do live in a world that was created by a divine infinite. In fact, Steve.

Schultz, as headmaster of Grace Christian Academy, I understand that classical education would be in full agreement with what Israel just said because of the fact that you want children to be taught the truth, but at the same time you want them to be able to think critically, think apologetically, and they are exposed to the anti-biblical, un-biblical theories out there, at least in certain classes, but they are taught not as a alternative option for truth or possible truth, they are just taught so that your students can more intelligently communicate with people that.

Hold those views, am I right? And Reverend Buzz Taylor, my co-host in the studio, has something to say.

Well, you're also teaching debate there. That's great, but for our listeners' question, I'm very pleased to hear that you're making that decision also. I made that decision a long time ago when I first learned about homeschooling.

I went home until my wife, there's nothing else for us to do. We homeschooled six children, but when we started homeschooling, there weren't a lot of curriculums available. It's developed so much over the years.

Back when we started homeschooling, it went by a different name. Back then it was called child abuse, and there really wasn't a lot of stuff written for it, but as we went through the years, we changed curriculums a few times because that wasn't the big issue.

The big issue was that they were getting an education and it was not going to be an education that was going to destroy their faith.

Thank you, Buzz. We have Joe in Slovenia who has a question. Dear Brother Chris, thanks for filling each day with excited anticipation about the rich topic you'll address for us. Please ask Brother Israel to address the issue of socialization for homeschoolers.

The most frequent question or objection that we receive about homeschooling our children is, how are they going to be socialized if they don't go to public school and learn to interact with other children?

I'm amazed at how this seems to be such an important value for so many people. The same people agree that much of the socialization that kids get in public schools is negative, yet somehow they think that it is a necessary aspect of becoming a well-adjusted member of society.

Can you please dispel some of this wrongheadedness for us? Thank you so much for sharpening us today to care deeply about the proper education of our children.

Socialization, Peer Influence, and Biblical Wisdom

Great question, and one of the things that I set out to do when I wrote my book, Education, Does God Have an Opinion?, is I wanted to completely examine and get down to foundational presuppositions, if you will, to examine what is it that we believe fundamentally and why do we believe it.

For example, when we think about education, if I were to tell the listeners, just close your eyes and tell me what comes to your mind when I say the word education. They probably say big brick building, playground, chalkboards, school desks, kind of thing.

I say, okay, textbooks. I say, okay, that's great. Now, let's say that you and I were, and all we had was a Bible and some free time. You're with me because I don't know how to build a boat. So I say, let's try to find out, what does God have to say about education?

And what would education look like if all we had to describe it was a Bible? Would any of those things that you just mentioned be in the list? They would say no, because none of those things that they think of when the word education comes up in conversation are anywhere found in Scripture.

So what I think that shows us is that the things we believe about education have been informed to us by something other than Scripture. They've been informed to us primarily by our experience. We've been told this is what the paradigm of education is.

I would say that as Bible-believing Christians, we supposedly believe that God's word is the final authority for life and morality and practice, and that that's our starting point. That's our foundation.

So as it relates to this issue of socialization, when I ask parents, is it important for children to be socialized? Everybody says, well, of course it's important to be socialized. And what's interesting is if you go to a Christian homeschooling conference and there's a workshop on socialization, almost inevitably you will have a speaker who spends 55 minutes trying to give you 300 different ways that you can properly socialize your children.

Because even within the Christian homeschooling community, we have accepted this premise, we've bought into this presupposition that children, in order to be properly socialized, need to spend large quantities of time around other children their own age.

Now let's just drop everything we thought we knew about education for a minute and go to Scripture. Does Scripture reinforce that viewpoint? Where in the Bible does it say, make sure that your children spend large quantities of unsupervised time with other children their own age?

Or just even large quantities of time with other children their own age? Give me a chapter, give me a verse, any verse in the Bible that would give us that idea. I'm going to suggest to you it's not there.

I would also suggest that the Scripture says the exact opposite of that. And one of the passages that comes to my mind is Proverbs 13 verse 20, where it says, he who walks with wise men will become wise, but a companion of fools will be destroyed.

What's interesting to me about that is that the Bible actually gives us a definition, two definitions actually, of what a fool is. The one is where it says that the fool has said in his heart there is no God.

So that's one category or one definition of a fool, the person who does not acknowledge God and dismisses God from the equation. That would be one example of a fool. The other would be found in Proverbs 22 15, and that's where we're told that foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.

A place that we can go to expect to find foolishness would be in a child, because it's not just there, it's bound up. When we think about a social context where we want our children to be, when it says that a companion of fools will be destroyed, then you shouldn't have your children spending large quantities of time around, A, other children, or B, people who say there is...

I think you can infer that from... What's interesting is when you think about someone who's wise, and you say, well, what does that look like? Well, a wise person typically would be someone older, someone who has some life experience, someone certainly who acknowledges God.

That would be a wise person, and the scripture tells us that that is who we want our children to hang around. We want them to be around those kinds of people. So that wouldn't look like a classroom with 30 students all the same age.

There's another verse in the New Testament where the Apostle Paul says something very similar. It's in 1 Corinthians 15, 33, and Paul says, do not be deceived or do not be misled. Bad company corrupts good character.

And this really ties in with that salt and light argument, because people say, well, you need to have your children in the public school so they can be salt and light. And the Apostle Paul, I think, dismantles that argument by saying that rather than your Christian child going in there and converting this whole class of non-Christian students, the tendency, the rule, is that your good child who has good character is going to be influenced negatively by the social context of the classroom.

And I say there's three different teachers in every school. There's the person who stands up in front and says, good morning, class. I'm your teacher. There's the textbooks, which is also a teacher. And then there is the teacher who actually influences your child and has the most influence of all in the classroom, and that is the peer group.

And the peer group is the most dominant force in the school. And so that social context of the child being with other young people who have a tendency, a trajectory towards foolishness, is very harmful for the child.

So the Scripture tells us that we should have them be with wise people, those who fear the Lord, those who are older and more mature. The analogy with salt and light that I think is important to consider is, the argument is sort of like this.

Your child is like an apple, and people are saying there's this barrel of bad apples over here in the school, and you have a good apple. You need to take your good apple and throw your good apple over into that barrel so that your good apple can make all those bad apples turn good.

The Apostle Paul says, do not be deceived, do not be misled. Bad company. There's really nothing in Scripture that would support the idea that children spending large quantities of time hanging out together is beneficial for them.

I think it is important for children to spend time with people of all ages, but they should do that in a context where there's oversight, and where there's guidance, particularly by their parents, where their parents are there, where the parents are involved.

And this is a little bit of a rabbit trail with this, but that whole concept of age segregation, it was actually created by John Dewey, who was a signer the first time he was an atheist and a socialist, the father of the progressive education movement in the 1920s and 30s in the United States.

He created the 30 to 40 student classroom specifically because he wanted to break the allegiance of children from their parents. And he said, in order to do that, we have to shift the children's allegiance away from their parents, the child's allegiance, to something else.

And the easiest way to do that is to create a herd, to create a peer group. So he said, if you take 30 to 40 students all the same age, and you set them in a classroom for one year, in one year's time, most of those students will become peer dependent.

And once they're peer dependent, and you've created a herd, then you as a teacher can infiltrate that herd. And if you do it smart, you can lead that herd anywhere you want to take them. And in the Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx said, he said, you accuse us of wanting to destroy the most hallowed of relations between parent and child.

He says, to this crime, we plead guilty. He said, the communists want to replace home education with social. And it's interesting, he uses the word social. The whole theory, if you study the history of the concept of age segregated, it comes from Marxist socialists and social engineers who wanted to break children away from their parents, and they wanted to use a peer group to do it.

Now to really segue away, but still tied in, we took that Deweyian Marxist concept of lumping children all the same age together in one classroom, creating a herd of children, you know, creates dependency to where students are afraid to go against the opinions of their peers, and they're afraid to stand out from the group.

We've taken that model that was very intentionally created to destroy family unity. We've imported it into the church wholesale. We've basically taken what the government education system has done with their school system.