Ehrman Debate Announcment

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Introducing the Bart Ehrman Debate

For the past. Oh, I don't know. When did we finally get word that that we were moving on this this was Sometime in mid-december, so we're talking about quite some time now that we have been sitting upon a very important Announcement something very exciting and in fact I will pull the trigger here in just a moment and throw it up on the website as soon as as we have done this.

But what I want to do is I want to provide you with some some audio clips that I hope are going to actually Function properly for us to give you an idea of why? What we have coming up in January of 2009 is so very very important and Why I'm very excited about not only all that's happening this year But especially looking forward to this opportunity of ministry that will be coming up in in January of 2009.

Right at I think we'll be wrapping things up Exactly one year from today. Yeah today's 29th. So it will be the wrapping everything up Exactly one year from today. Let me give you a Sound clip to begin laying the foundation for this.

This was from a debate which took place over the summer on Hugh Hewitt show between Mark Roberts Hugh Hewitt's pastor and Christopher Hitchens. Hitchens, of course, the author of God is not great. He is along with Dawkins one of the radical atheists touring the land attacking Christianity.

Listen to what Hitchens says.

Born in that roughly that areas around that time. That's missing on the territory of my partner here. There isn't a trustworthy word as you know from reading Norman and others in in any of the Gospels that you could remotely say was historical evidence.

I turned to Bart Ehrman.

He figures prominently in Christopher Hitchens book. He figures prominently in Mark Roberts book Christopher Hitchens. What do you find so appealing about Bart Ehrman?

Well, I find it's what Bertrand Russell used to call The argument of evidence against interest or as my friend you probably know him John O'Sullivan. Yes, so if the Pope says he believes in God, he's only doing his job if he says he doesn't believe in God.

He may be on to something Bart Ehrman didn't do to keep up his belief and He appears to promise to with a couple languages. I'm right. Am I not in saying this Mark Roberts? Hey, he is a is a well-regarded scholar and he came to the conclusion that it was mythical.

Of course many of you will remember that. Not too long ago. We were hearing a lot about a New York Times bestseller. We heard for example this on National Public Radio. This is fresh air. I'm Terry gross.

There's a bumper sticker that reads God said it. I believe it. I guess Bart Ehrman's reaction to that is. Well, what if God didn't say it? What if the book you take as giving you God's words instead contains human words?

Herman is the author of the new book misquoting Jesus. It's about how the New Testament was altered by the scribes who hand wrote each copy and in the process made intentional or unintentional Changes.

Herman shares the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He's a scholar of the New Testament and the early church. He was born again at the age of 15 and studied at the Moody Bible Institute.

Later while attending Princeton Theological Seminary He started to have doubts about the literal interpretations of the Bible. He now describes himself as an agnostic.

And of course then during the course of my debate with Shabir Ali at Biola University and so no, I especially when we have Manuscript evidence far earlier for the New Testament than we have for any other ancient document.

Especially in regards to theological issues. No, I for example, I'm very opposed to the Spinning of the material in the New Testament made by dr. Bart Ehrman in his misquoting Jesus. I have Criticized his works in my writings on my website.

I've done radio programs concerning what he's saying and I think that you can Demonstrate that his thesis expressed in his earlier work the more scholarly one that no one evidently read so he wrote that one.

That that in reality he is Giving the worst-case scenario at each particular point in time and that there are much better Reasons why most of the variance he addresses exist than his presupposition That it's a scribe wanting to make some type of a doctrinal change.

And now let's let's let the gentleman we're talking about to speak for himself. Here is dr. Bart Ehrman.

Bart Ehrman's Argument Against Inspiration

For one thing, I think I'd have to I think if the Bible were inspired in all of its parts You wouldn't have contradictions. My own personal view about that is that since you have variant readings and you don't have the original text It shows I think conclusively that God did not preserve The words of the scripture that if God didn't go to the trouble of preserving the words of Scripture.

The authoritative words of Scripture that he probably didn't go to the trouble of Inspiring them in the first place because if he wanted people to have his absolute words so that he inspired them He would have preserved them.

But the fact is he didn't preserve them which shows that he probably didn't inspire them. Well, I wouldn't have been that hard to do if you're God. They're without errors. Like, you know phone books can be without errors.

So it's not impossible to make an inerrant book.

Yeah, the phone books without errors that of course was from issues etc. When Todd Wilkin was interviewing. Dr Bart Ehrman on the subject of his book misquoting Jesus. If you go to our website, you will see that I have now placed on the blog The announcement for the debate on January 21st 7 p .m. At the Fort Lauderdale, Florida Sheraton Airport Hotel.

Myself debating. Dr. Bart Ehrman on the subject of textual criticism and specifically Does textual criticism preclude the possibility of inspiration as the New Testament inspired can't be inspired in light of the existence of textual variation and of course I can provide more.

I for those of you who have the Webcam I have a book here called What did Jesus really say Misha al-ibn Abdullah? This is a an almost 700 page book 600 and yes, it's an over 650 pages from the Islamic Assembly of North America.

It is one of the fullest Islamic attacks upon the deity of Christ and of course along with that comes constant attacks upon the Orthodoxy or should I say the the Propriety of the means of transmission of the New Testament over and over again.

What do we find for example on page? 67 the predecessor of the Codex Bezet and other church manuscripts do not contain the article ha. And the citation the Orthodox corruption of Scripture Bart D. Ehrman page 266.

On page 268 you have suggested reading the Orthodox corruption of Scripture by Bart D Ehrman over and over and over again the Muslims the atheists those who attack the text of New Testament. Who are they citing.

They are citing Bart Ehrman graduate of Moody Bible Institute grad also went to Wheaton College and then went to Princeton in essence lost his faith even though Christopher Hitchens seemed to think he was still a Christian.

He was rather surprised to inform that he was not but be that as it may. The radical atheists are utilizing him. The Muslims are utilizing him. Everyone who is attacking the text of New Testament is utilizing the information and the conclusions of dr Bart Ehrman and so we will be debating in Florida on January 21st right before our major conference.

We'll be having right afterwards and I certainly myself. I'm tremendously excited about this opportunity because really. Especially once the misquoting Jesus book came out there are all sorts of books.

I have a pile here of dr Ehrman's books we have lost Christianity's the battles for Scripture in the face. We never knew we have his Brill which is 150 bucks just simply for the book studies and the textual criticism of the New Testament.

His New Testament introduction, which is used in many secular universities across the land. Of course misquoting Jesus, which was a New York Times bestseller the orthodox corruption of Scripture again came out quite some time ago.

But is widely used Jesus apocalyptic prophet new millennium. And I mentioned the fact that he has a book coming out in the middle of next month. That refers to God's problem how the Bible fails to answer our most important question Why we suffer and that very clearly indicates even by its title that Ehrman is going far outside of his specific area of expertise and is moving much more into the direct opposition to the Christian faith with that kind of Of a tone that will be coming out.

And so that will be the debate coming up. So I'm going to bring on the air now a gentleman who has been working Very hard and putting all of this together, of course back in December Michael Fallon. I were on the program here.

He was in studio at that time. He joins us on the the telephone today from Florida and we were talking about this and then it just took a whole lot of work to make all of the various things come together, but Mike thank you for joining us today.

Well, thank you.

I really don't know what I'm gonna say because it's no fun anymore. You've already said everything.

Well, no, I haven't because this is the debate is the is the first thing but it is certainly not the only thing and I don't know if you have brought up my blog, but I Put up a blog article that has links To your websites both to the debate page as well as to the conference and cruise page as well.

And I really haven't said much about all of that because I wanted to leave you something to say. So I was trying to be nice.

Well, I tell you folks this is those of us that know what we're going what was going on have tried to keep it under a hat as we try to put all the elements together and Believe me. That's not been easy.

Although I mean the best part I think is that of course, dr Airman and we appreciate him agreeing to do this. I mean, but my gosh the guy was ready to debate last week. I know, you know, he was very, you know, you know ready to go.

So but we have an opportunity for folks to be able to come and be a part of things. With Alpha Omega ministries, but along with a couple of other like-minded ministries that we have this year. Number one would be Coral Ridge ministries, which of course as many of you know Dr. Kennedy pastor and they'll be partnering with Alpha Omega ministries.

Dr. Gary debar. Who's well known for his disbelief in the rapture? Hopefully he'll never hear that. Oh, I'm sure he will. But Gary DeMar and then as well we have another gentleman joining David Wheaton.

Yes, someone that I've known for a while know who that is.

How to fish and the wife of how to. But those are channel names for everybody else who's sitting there going?

What is he talking about. Any in the 90s has victories over Agassi over? Wendell over a lot of different grand slam titles under his belt of destruction all the the collegiate system as well as universities are Really there to college.

It's good for coming along with us. Well now the real big question I have about David Wheaton. Is he righty or lefty?

Just just want to know which direction he's gonna poach. That sets all I need.

That we did back about two years ago 2005. Well, this is gonna be a little bit above that teaming up with the curtains their current 35 and over Wimbledon champion of doubles. It's myself and another it's on the 20th.

We're gonna be doing that which means I will not be able to move. I don't think any of us are gonna walk into this match unprepared and we actually started preparing for it Back about four or five weeks ago.

So we have a year and some odd months under our belt to be able to get ready for taking up. For charity, this will be we are kind of add on to things to spice it up if you will.

Yeah, I think I think the term we might want to use is observing. This is the the anniversary celebrating doesn't really come out to Celebrating. Yes, I think observing protesting. Observing. That's almost as bad as calling a certain person brother once when we I.

Anyway, so.

Some of you were we're talking and chat a little bit earlier about some other Cruises of other organizations and if you see that our price for this particular cruise that we're going on is a five-star ship.

That's a look, you know, you can get on and this will be the pricing that were challenges on our end as well. We putting them up with get in early folks. It's gonna start at $299 per person. So this is something that everybody can can afford to do a few days off of work.

Because we're trying to build it around a weekend right hotel that we're offering. Where. If you stay at trying to give you folks again the bunch you to be there want to be able to fellowship with you.

I know dr. White looks forward to meeting all of you in person and just hearing about how your life's been a big friend. Micah is going to be creating a few Buttons and so forth. Right. We'll put up on.

Gonna be a great opportunity to be able to sit down. Again it's just a great the debate out of the way first indeed.

I'm looking forward to it obviously for for many reasons obviously from my perspective my my greatest task obviously will be to Engage, dr. Ehrman and to do so in such a fashion as to Provide something that will edify the church for for many years to come.

That's always my goal in these things and I know that I will go in to the debate having read everything that dr Ehrman has to say on the subject I Can't guess as yet whether that's honor will be returned to me or not, and I don't have any control over things like that but I know that This is very much in line with What we have been doing through alpha Omega ministries for many many years it's very much in line with the debate with John dominant cross and a couple of years ago on the subject of the historical reliability of the Gospels and I really do believe that when it comes to the primary source that is being used most often by the radical atheists by Muslims to attack the transmission of the text of New Testament by scholarship in general in certainly My my daughter Encountered frequent citations of Bart Ehrman in the class she had last semester with dr. Carter who was such an inveterate detester of Christianity biblical Christianity and So if she's experienced that many others have as well and so in in one debate we can address Such a wide variety of subjects that will be so useful in so many different apologetic Contexts that obviously I will be very focused upon this and it does fit into very much into the PhD program that I announced a few weeks ago in regards to what I was doing It will fit very very well within that context.

And so the other thing I've got to do is Is learn to return serve low so the people than that can't can't kill me immediately. That's the only thing I've really got to.

Transition in honestly, and I think you know that well, I need to be careful anyway, but if there's Really someone that I think the Muslim apologists that you've debated. And that I've heard debate other people such as Sam Shamoon.

That everybody uses and as well as justifying, you know, some of their Their beliefs their stances and so forth. I think one. I think his name was Carter the gentleman. Yes. Uh-huh. Phoenix. Yes, I think I think used to miss some of his.

You know, I am material Thing. Well, you know Bart Ehrman has written this great book and so forth and so on. Although we would love to have maybe a warm-up debate with with Professor Carter. Maybe you can do that morning, you know while you're eating breakfast.

You know, you could be finishing off an omelet or what to be made for you while you're debating him. Yeah, but anyway, he didn't return my email. I did offer that but nothing came back.

I didn't expect anything too. I didn't get a response either. And so what can you say?

Well, but you know, I think that this again is one of those Circumstances where if they're using Someone as their source material as their proof their proof text if you will. They return back to dr. Airman.

This is an opportunity, of course for you to to worry, right? And I do want to thank dr. Airman. I have a feeling that David Wheaton is is probably a little bit of a competitor, too so You know.

Let's be careful, we don't hospitalize him, you know. You know if you if you guys put him in the hospital you're gonna be stepping up for the debate then Mike.

Yeah, that's gonna happen. Yeah, oh sure. We're gonna ship you Rich's dog. Just might bring him to Florida. Even up the score a little bit. Time guys I'm doing the night before everything so serious. Just to relax and loosen up a little bit.

But again to raise money for charity. And then we will of course that are in on this are really looking forward to up here and off to make ministries and as well. I think dr. White has put up the links already.

Mm-hmm. In the blog. Yes, indeed, yeah, I mean that cost you a lot of money to put that up. I know.

Gorgeous. A lot of time is what it's what it costs. Oh.

We look for what you go. Okay, and rich once again a pleasure talking to you. All right, man. Look forward to seeing you next January. All right. Thanks, Mike. Take care.

All right. So there you go folks. I've hit drop multiple times and it doesn't want to do anything. So We're having technical difficulties today. There you go, folks. We are very much looking forward to this again.

It's similar to the writing of my books The planning of debates we we don't necessarily just want to repeat things over and over again. We want to try to seek to provide Debates that will be useful That are relevant now, but likewise will be useful down the road for the for the next decade for the next generation, whatever it might be and Unfortunately, it's in our society today it is The fact that within the quote-unquote Academy the writings of Bart Ehrman are taken as the the final word in these matters and You know, everybody said the same thing when when dr. Ehrman is speaking of specific facts.

He's very very careful You can go back in the archives and I have I played for example, dr Ehrman's comments from issues etc NPR and review the things that he said and if you will listen When he is stating Factual data.

He is very very careful as to what he says That isn't where the problem is. It is the conclusions that he draws from that data that become Extremely problematic especially because we are dealing with someone Who is in the technical utilization of the term and apostate and now people?

Well, I don't even think dr. Ehrman would Object to that because clearly the term apostate has a meaning and He's the one who is frequently making reference to the fact that he once believed X and now he doesn't believe X any longer and on any linguistic basis, that's what's from a Christian perspective an apostate is and He's the one who frequently says hey I went to Moody Bible Institute where Bibles our middle name and and he uses that as his Background and then that becomes the foundation of His being able to say then I went to Princeton and I woke up.

I saw the light in essence and Discovered that in my Evangelical experience these things have been hidden under the rug. Well, I don't believe that they were actually and they aren't hidden under the rug certainly the Existence of textual variation in New Testament has been well known for a long long long long long long time and It's not something that's just hidden under the rug.

And certainly I would be one of the people that would have a very strong standing to be able to say well I certainly haven't hidden it under the rug since 1995 my best-selling book has been on the subject and it lists textual variation after textual variation of textual variation and addresses them and So within the context of Believing in the inspiration authority of the scriptures.

And so I'm sure that between now and then we'll probably go back over especially the debate that dr. Ehrman had with William Lane Craig because I really think that the assertions he made regarding the Resurrection narratives crucifixion narratives things like that Will help us to prepare ourselves for the fundamental worldview that is going to be discussed the clash of worldviews That will come out in this particular debate 877 -753 -3341.

I'd like to hear what you think about the big announcement today 877 -753 -3341 if you have Comments or questions that you would like to like to bring up. We're gonna take a break Then we'll go to your phone calls 877 -753 -3341.

Everyone this is Rich Pierce. In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered self-help program. The need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater.

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Caller Questions About Islam, the Trinity, and Textual Criticism

And welcome back to the dividing line on the day of the big announcement that a debate coming up January 21st against dr Bart Ehrman University, North Carolina Chapel Hill head of the Department of Religion author of numerous books lost Christianity's Jesus apocalyptic prophet a new millennium orthodox corruption of scripture misquoting Jesus and Others as well.

Taking your phone calls that start with Ken in Atlanta. Hi Ken. How you doing?

Hi, dr. White. How's it going? Ken great. This is my first time. I've listened to you by archive for years All righty, and I appreciate a question has to do with Islam and history and Then you've been doing a great job.

I Guess my big question for years has been how do we? Understand. The fact that when you read and I don't know if you've come across this yet or what when you read Christianity. Mm-hmm that the Non-calcedonian churches in the east like today the Coptic Church the Jacobite Syrian Church and the other Non-calcedonian churches Nestorian churches the claim that Muslims make and also church history Justinian to enforce the Calcedonian Creed the The two natures of Christ and that they welcomed the Arab invaders As liberators and we heard this in the debate that Nader Ahmed Was he was that was one of his points against Sam?

Yeah, I don't know why it's a point.

What's what's the relevance of the fact that the Byzantine Empire as it was crumbling at that time had utilized Inappropriate mechanisms for trying to enforce Theological paradigms, I mean.

How is that relevant to anything? Okay, what. I'm good. I guess what I'm trying to figure out for years and when you disciple them and about the Trinity and the deity of Christ area to get into and persona triunitas all these Latin and Greek terms and the fog just comes up over their eyes, you know, and well.

I obviously don't start there. I've written a book called the Forgotten Trinity great book and I think you start with with the biblical foundations you you outline the the realities of what the biblical parameters are and then if there are questions concerning the outworking and the exact applications of elements of that then you can go into those things.

But I I don't know that it's necessary to do so with a brand new convert or something like that. I think that's establishing the biblical parameters first and foremost is certainly a lengthy enough situation and then.

But I'm not certain of the relationship between the Byzantine Empire call soon definition Islam and things like that as I'm missing the connection between the first part of your question and then the second part.

Right, and that's probably my weakness. That's what I do. I'd love to see Your book Arabic and Farsi Arabic words in it, right? We I always start with what you're talking about the biblical data. But then eventually the former are gone.

They naturally unless we teach them they naturally I've seen this for 25 years. They naturally are without good teaching.

Well, yeah, I I think most evangelicals fall into modalism without good teaching. So, I don't know that really has anything to do with specifically with with with Muslims other than certainly they have a strong propensity towards Tawheed and You know monotheism and things like that but still I I'm uncertain of the historical relationship to to the question in regards to the Byzantine Empire and things like that, right my.

The only way I could possibly answer the question is is the same way that I did in the book and that is you you Start with the biblical parameters and then say well What were the issues that were struggled with?

To try to keep from of to from violating those biblical parameters in church history and but those things always have to be subsumed under the context of The Biblical revelation and the supremacy of biblical revelation over any type of church history issues, so.

That'd be the best thing I could give to you there Ken and we've got lots of folks calling in today. Let me put Ken there and let me go on to.

Bart Ehrman, Textual Criticism, and the Inspiration of Scripture

Mike in Florida. Hi Mike. Hey, dr. White. How are you today? I'm doing good. Most excellent. Hey, I just wanted to Say how excited I am. I am to hear about the upcoming debate. You are in Florida. So that helps doesn't.

Two hours out. So if it was so if it's in Seattle, you wouldn't be quite as excited. Well, I would be excited. I'd be bummed.

I'm thinking you know, man. It's it's Turtle, you know, I'd be thinking gosh the odds are you know going out there is just slim to none, right? I hear you. But anyway, just very excited about that and I vote when I heard that I was just really You know cranked up because I thought you know, I've been thinking last couple of years I've seen Bart's books, you know coming out.

You've all over the place. I'm thinking man. Would it be great to have? Dr. White debate this guy. When I heard that I was just like man, that was just awesome. Well good. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that.

It's gonna be an exciting time. I'm in the meantime since you are going to be debating Bart Ehrman, what would you suggest as far as like a guy like me or many others on that note as far as Getting us prepared to think about you know, the issues they're going to be brought up.

What kind of what books would you refer to? Well, you know, the funny thing is one of the standard books.

In the field. It was Metzger's work. And of course Ehrman helped him to edit the fourth edition and that has been one of the things that has caused a lot of people to take note of some of the changes that Resulted as a part of that.

The the question is going to be rather interesting. Obviously there are going to be specific texts and there are specific texts that dr. Ehrman has focused upon for example, he seems to have a real strong Concern about whether Jesus was angry for example, even though other texts that do not have any Variations in them do indicate that Jesus experienced anger.

I for some reason he feels that that's Inappropriate but We will be looking at texts. I'm sure the John 753 311 text will come up in regards to women taking an adultery because that is very much prominent in his thinking.

But the the real issues isn't so much like I said when when Ehrman Addresses textual critical information. He's generally solid in at least reporting what the facts are. The the question goes back to what he said That really I remember exactly where I was in my living room when I was listening to this interview with Todd Wilkin on issues, etc When he made those statements saying well, you know If God inspired this then then there wouldn't be any textual variations.

There wouldn't only be any alleged contradictions I'm sure he's could probably discuss that But there wouldn't be any textual variations and and I obviously I can at least understand Someone saying that the originals would not contradict themselves if it was inspired, okay That makes sense.

But when he went beyond that to saying there would be no textual variation. I just I stopped whatever in world I was doing at the time and Really tuned in because I'm like, wait a minute. What what what possible ground?

Can he offer for this idea? Because when you really think about what he's saying in essence He's saying that there could not have been a revelation from God Prior to the computer in essence unless it was in one place a chiseled in stone and could not be copied or Communicated to any place outside of that one particular geographical location, I guess is the the only Possible way that that there could have been a revelation other than that He he has admitted every single document of antiquity has undergone Textual variation in its in its Promulgation over time.

He admits the New Testament is is particularly Pure in this matter. He's made those statements and of course, I'll be quoting those statements I'll have them on my little gizmo, but It's quoting back to a previous debate in 2001 with Peter Stravinsky's.

But anyway, so I I The big issue is not going to be so much theories of of textual criticism or Byzantine versus Alexandrian or anybody who says that none of those categories are meaningful anymore any of that kind of stuff.

The real issue is upon what basis do you in essence build a case that says well, hey Inspiration means that that God's either going to turn everybody who copies his inspired text into an automatic writer So that he becomes the ancient equivalent of a Xerox machine or he's going to cause anyone who tries to make a change in the text to cause them to Either not be able to write the words.

They want to write or he's gonna fry them with an electrical bolt from heaven or you Whatever what's what's the ground upon which you can make such in such an argument and That's much more of an epistemological issue.

And I think it's much more of an issue that goes into Why has Bart Ehrman adopted the position that he has adopted? I mean, is it really true the textual variation was completely ignored at Moody Bible Institute.

That's what he says. I know people who were in class with Bart Ehrman At Moody Bible Institute who say nope, I was in classes where it was discussed. He just wasn't paying attention so You know, what's what's really going on here is is is the question I think some of that came up in the William Lane Craig debate.

But that's what's gonna be focused on. So I'm not really sure what to suggest because I don't know of books. I Honestly had never encountered anyone who was a serious scholar in the field who had come to conclusion that well Certainly if inspiration is true, there can't be textual variation that God would somehow I mean from my perspective That really misunderstands the entire Concept of the of the early Christians and the fact they wanted to get the text out and they wanted Layman to possess these texts and they didn't have a problem with business people Making copies of their text and all these other things.

I see that as the mechanism that God used to protect the text there could never have been a Christian Uthman there could not have been someone who came along and and created these wholesale additions and editing of the text and so on so forth, but He takes a different perspective and that's where the challenge is really is really going to be.

I really doubt that it's going to be on What the textual data is or even so much a difference of opinion between himself and myself as to the proper? Means of textual criticism everything that I have heard and of course as I said I have all of his books sitting next to me now, and I will be an expert in all of his writings by January, but Because that's just how I do debates.

But I don't think that's really where the focus is going to be that the real question is going to be why do you do? You and I both look at the same data and You in essence say to all ancient religions, and this is an important aspect.

He's not just saying this to to New Testament Christianity, but he and of course he has you know very He really loves to promote. You know the Gnostic Christians and things like that And call them Gnostic Christians.

But the real issue is how can we both look at the same data? And we we come to completely different conclusions as to the possibility of whether God has spoken and whether he could speak and by this this means and That really is I think going to become the focus it needs to be the focus of of the discussion.