Ehrman Debate Announcment

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.
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Here is James white For the past. Oh, I don't know. When did we finally get word that that we were moving on this this was
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Sometime in mid -december, so we're talking about quite some time now that we have been sitting upon a very important Announcement something very exciting and in fact
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I will pull the trigger here in just a moment and throw it up on the website as soon as as we have done this
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But what I want to do is I want to provide you with some some audio clips that I hope are going to actually
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Function properly for us to give you an idea of why? What we have coming up in January of 2009 is so very very important and why
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I'm very excited about Not only all that's happening this year But especially looking forward to this opportunity of ministry that will be coming up in in January of 2009
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Right at I think we'll be wrapping things up Exactly one year from today.
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Yeah today's 29th. So it will be the wrapping everything up Exactly one year from today.
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Let me give you a Sound clip to begin laying the foundation for this this was from a debate which took place over the summer on Hugh Hewitt's show between Mark Roberts Hugh Hewitt's pastor and Christopher Hitchens Hitchens, of course, the author of God is not great
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He is along with Dawkins one of the radical atheists touring the land attacking
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Christianity Listen to what Hitchens says Born in that roughly that areas around that time who was a preacher of some sort
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But there isn't a there isn't a trustworthy word I'm probably I'm not trespassing on the territory of my partner here
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There isn't a trustworthy word as you know from reading about Norman and others In in any of the gospels that you could remotely say was historical evidence.
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I turned to Bart Ehrman He figures prominently in Christopher Hitchens book He figures prominently in Mark Roberts book
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Christopher Hitchens. What do you find so appealing about Bart Ehrman? Well, I find it's what Bertrand Russell used to call
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The argument of evidence against interest or as my friend you probably know him John O'Sullivan Yes, so if the
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Pope says he believes in God, he's only doing his job if he says he doesn't believe in God He may be on to something But I haven't did the best of the man could do to keep up his belief and he appears to have been
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I hope I Again to trespass in to my partner's field of expertise, but to be quite a renowned scholar of the
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Gospels in several languages In the in the believing Christian community. I'm right.
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Am I not in saying this Mark Roberts? Hey, he is a is a well -regarded scholar and he came to the conclusion that it was mythical Of course many of you will remember that Not too long ago.
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We were hearing a lot about a New York Times bestseller We heard for example this on National Public Radio, this is fresh air.
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I'm Terry gross There's a bumper sticker that reads God said it. I believe it
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My guess Bart Ehrman's reaction to that is well, what if God didn't say it? What if the book you take as giving you
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God's words instead contains human words? Herman is the author of the new book misquoting
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Jesus It's about how the New Testament was altered by the scribes who hand wrote each copy and in the process made intentional or unintentional
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Changes Ehrman chairs the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill He's a scholar of the
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New Testament and the early church He was born again at the age of 15 and studied at the Moody Bible Institute later while attending
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Princeton Theological Seminary He started to have doubts about the literal interpretations of the
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Bible. He now describes himself as an agnostic And of course then during the course of my debate with Shabbir Ali at Biola University and so no,
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I especially when we have Manuscript evidence far earlier for the New Testament than we have for any other ancient document
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Especially in regards to theological issues. No, I for example, I'm very opposed to the
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Spinning of the material in the New Testament made by dr. Bart Ehrman in his misquoting
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Jesus. I have Criticized his works in my writings on my website I've done radio programs concerning what he's saying and I think that you can demonstrate that his thesis
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Expressed in his earlier work the more scholarly one that no one evidently read. So he wrote that one that that in reality he is
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Giving the worst -case scenario at each particular point in time and that there are much better reasons
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Why most of the variance he addresses exist than his presupposition that it's a scribe wanting to make some type of a doctrinal change
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And now let's let's let the gentleman we're talking about to speak for himself. Here is dr.
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Bart Ehrman Well for one thing, I think I'd have to I think if the Bible were inspired in all of its parts
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You wouldn't have contradictions My own personal view about that is that since you have variant readings and you don't have the original text
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It shows I think conclusively that God did not preserve The words of the scripture that if God didn't go to the trouble of preserving the words of Scripture the authoritative words of Scripture that he probably didn't go to the trouble of Inspiring them in the first place because if he wanted people to have his
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Absolute words so that he inspired them He would have preserved them, but the fact is he didn't preserve them which shows that he probably didn't inspire them
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Well, I wouldn't have been that hard to do if you're God They're without errors like how you know phone books can be without errors
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So it's not impossible to make an inerrant book Yeah, the phone books that errors that of course was from issues etc when
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Todd Wilkin was interviewing dr Bart Ehrman on the subject of his book misquoting Jesus if you go to our website, you will see that I have now placed on the blog
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The announcement for the debate on January 21st 7 p .m. At the
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Fort Lauderdale, Florida Sheraton Airport Hotel Myself debating dr. Bart Ehrman on the subject of textual criticism and specifically
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Does textual criticism preclude the possibility of inspiration as the New Testament inspired can't be inspired in light of the existence?
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of textual variation and of course I Can provide more
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I for those of you who have the? Webcam I have a book here called What did
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Jesus really say Misha al -ibn Abdullah? This is a an almost 700 page book 600 and you know 600 over 650 pages from the
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Islamic Assembly of North America It is one of the fullest Islamic attacks upon the deity of Christ.
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And of course along with that comes constant attacks upon the orthodoxy or should
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I say the the Propriety of the means of transmission of the New Testament over and over again.
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What do we find? for example on page 67 the predecessor of the Codex Bezet and other church manuscripts do not contain the article ha and The citation the orthodox corruption of scripture
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Bart D. Ehrman page 266 on page 268 You have suggested reading the orthodox corruption of scripture by Bart D Ehrman over and over and over again the
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Muslims the atheists those who attack the text of New Testament Who are they citing they are citing
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Bart Ehrman graduate of Moody Bible Institute grad also went to Wheaton College and then went to Princeton in essence lost his faith, even though Christopher Hitchens seemed to think he was still a
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Christian He was rather surprised to inform that he was not but be that as it may The radical atheists are utilizing him.
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The Muslims are utilizing him Everyone who is attacking the text of New Testament is utilizing the information and the conclusions of dr
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Bart Ehrman and so we will be debating in, Florida On January 21st right before our major conference.
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We'll be having right afterwards and I certainly myself. I'm tremendously excited about this opportunity because really
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Especially once the misquoting Jesus book came out there are all sorts of books. I have a pile here of dr
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Ehrman's books. We have lost Christianity's the battles for scripture in the face. We never knew we have his
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Brill which is 150 bucks just simply for the book studies in the textual criticism of the
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New Testament His New Testament introduction which is used in many secular universities across the land, of course misquoting
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Jesus Which was a New York Times bestseller the orthodox corruption of scripture again came out quite some time ago
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But is widely used Jesus apocalyptic prophet in the new millennium And I mentioned the fact that he has a book coming out in the middle of next month
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That refers to God's problem how the Bible fails to answer our most important question
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Why we suffer and that very clearly indicates even by its title that Ehrman is going far outside of his specific area of expertise and is moving much more into the direct opposition to the
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Christian faith with that kind of Of a tone that will be coming out and so that will be the debate coming up and So I'm going to bring on the air now a gentleman who has been working
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Very hard and putting all of this together, of course back in December Michael Fallon I were on the program here.
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He was in studio at that time. He joins us on the telephone today from Florida and we were talking about this and then it just took a whole lot of work to make all of the various things come together, but Mike thank you for joining us today.
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Well, thank you. I really don't know what I'm gonna say because it's no fun anymore You've already said everything Well, no
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I haven't because this is the debate is the is the first thing but it is certainly not the only thing and I don't know if you have brought up my blog, but I Put up a blog article that has links
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To your websites both to the debate page as well as to the conference and cruise page as well
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And I really haven't said much about all of that because I wanted to leave you something to say
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So I was trying to be nice. Well, thank you well, I tell you folks this has been really an ongoing process over the last few months and those of us that know what we're going what was going on have tried to keep it under a hat as we try to put all the elements together and Believe me, that's not been easy
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Although I mean the best part I think is that of course, dr. Airman and we appreciate him agreeing to do this
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I mean, but my gosh, the guy was ready to debate last week. I know you know, he was very, you know Ready to go.
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So but we have an opportunity for folks to be able to come and be a part of things
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With Alpha Omega ministries, but along with a couple of other like -minded ministries that we have this year
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Number one would be Coral Ridge ministries, which of course as many of you know Dr.
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Kennedy passed away this past year But they are forging forward with some new directions and so forth and they'll be partnering with Alpha Omega ministries for this next cruise and as well with dr.
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Gary DeMar Who's well known for his dispensationalism and? belief in the rapture
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Hopefully you'll never hear that I'm sure you will But Gary DeMar and then as well, we have another gentleman joining us by the name of David Wheaton.
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Yes, someone that I've known for a while. So if you might be familiar with them I know that how to might know who that is how to fish and the wife of how to But those are channel names for everybody else who's sitting there going what is he talking about?
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anybody that knows anything about David Wheaton, of course was Top 10 in the world for a while won the
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Masters Cup back in the 90s has victories over Agassiz over Lundell over a lot of different great players in the world
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Was obviously one of America's best talents for several years as well has several
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Grand Slam titles under his belt including Wimbledon and so forth and doubles and David though has written a fantastic book that That I'm sure many of you might want to pick up it's called
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University of Destruction talks about how the the collegiate system as well as universities are
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Really there to help educate the faith out of many of the young folks that you're sending to you to college
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So it's good for someone who's heading to college. It's good for parents to to read and so forth David of course has reformed in esoteric ology and Someone that we consider very close
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To our ministry and someone who we appreciate coming along with us Well now the real big question I have about David Wheaton is he righty or lefty?
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Yeah, I believe David is a righty Just just want to know which direction he's gonna poach that's that's all
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I need Folks what we have and I know some of you were interested in a weight loss challenge that dr.
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Steve camp and myself along with we try to encourage Phil Johnson to be a part of it that we did back about two years ago
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Well, this is going to be a little bit above that in that this year The challenge will be that James White will be teaming up with the curtains their current 35 and ever
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Wimbledon champion of doubles To play against myself and another person in an exhibition match that will take place on the 20th of January So we're going to be doing that which means
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I will not be able to move well Well, you never know
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I mean The thought about it is is that I don't think any of us are going to walk into this match unprepared and we actually started
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Preparing for it back about four or five weeks ago So we have a year and some odd months under our belt to be able to get ready for this
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Or this for this match, so it'll be a lot of fun. We are going to be taking up a
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Chair it will be chair for charity. This will be for one of the local Right to life pregnancy centers because of course we'll be celebrating the anniversary of Roe v.
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Wade during the time that we are Participating in this conference and Cruz so just something else that we can kind of add on to things to spice it up if you will
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Yeah, I think I think the term we might want to use is observing This is the the anniversary celebrating doesn't really come out to what in the world that I say you said celebrating
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Yes, I think observing protesting That's almost as bad as calling a certain person brother once when we
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Know I think the Bible says something about remembering the wrongs of your brother and so forth anyway Little slips of the tongue.
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Isn't it? I can always count on you for that. There you go Well, you're so good at debate anyway, so the yeah, okay.
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Yeah. Thank you blue woad. No Anyway, so the
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I think the big thing about this book is is again Though is that we and along with the other ministries have really caught on to the idea of folks we're going to try to make this as as affordable as possible and Both for the conference the debate and the
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Cruz there are costs that are incurred that we have to take care of But nobody's looking to really profit out of anything here
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We're trying to make sure that this is done on a budget that anybody can afford to go that looks ahead one year from now
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That you folks are going to be able to come if you want to bring your family if you can come and be a part Of things and I know some of you were we're talking and chat a little bit earlier about some other
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Cruises of other organizations and if you see that our price for this particular cruise that we're going on is a quarter of the price
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Of those and we're going to be on a five -star ship the celebrity century, which is the newly refurbished ship.
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It's absolutely gorgeous You know you can get on and this will be the pricing that we're gonna be putting up here within the next few hours
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We have some internet challenges on our end as well But we will be putting them up within the next few hours
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But the pricing if you can get in early folks is going to start at $299 per person the four -day cruise on a five -star ship
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And so this is something that everybody can can afford to do It will mean that you'll have to take a few days off of work because we're trying to build it around a weekend, right?
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Man I tell you folks between that and the price of the hotel that we're offering where if you stay at the hotel
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You're you can get into the worldview conference for free and the debate will only cost you $5 We're trying to give you folks again the best value
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We possibly can just want you to be there want to be able to fellowship with you I know dr. White looks forward to meeting all of you in person and just hearing about how your lives have been impacted by the ministry and You that that's really what this is all about so folks, please do take a look at the blog
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Take a look at some of the links that dr. White has just put up I know that our incredibly talented artistic friend
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Micah is going to be creating a few Buttons and so forth and we'll put up on the website. That'll be going up soon
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But James, you know again, this is going to be a great opportunity for for all of us just to spend with you You know to be able to sit down and have a great meal with you on the ship
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Whatever it may be that you're eating that day hamburgers You know, whatever You know this again.
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It's just a great time of fellowship any of you that were with us this past fall When we were had that that four -day beautiful cruise in the
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Pacific Northwest It was beautiful except for the one day But just a beautiful cruise and such a great fellowship that we had with all of you then that led into the debate
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Well, we'll get the debate out of the way first. Yeah, and that'll be happening on the evening before the cruise
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And then just looking for great fellowship and time that we can spend with one another Indeed, I'm looking forward to it.
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Obviously for for many reasons obviously from my perspective my my greatest task obviously will be to Engage, dr.
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Ehrman and to do so in such a fashion as to Provide something that will edify the church for for many years to come
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That's always my goal in these things and I know that I will go in to the debate having read everything that dr
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Ehrman has to say on the subject I Can't guess as yet whether that's honor will be returned to me or not, and I don't have any control over things like that but I know that This is very much in line with What we have been doing through Alpha Omega Ministries for many many years it's very much in line with the debate with John Dominic Cross and a couple of years ago on the subject of the historical reliability of the
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Gospels and I really do believe that when it comes to the primary source that is being used most often by the radical atheists by Muslims to attack the transmission of the text of New Testament by scholarship in general in certainly
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My my daughter Encountered frequent citations of Bart Ehrman in the class.
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She had last semester with dr. Carter who was such an inveterate detester of Christianity biblical
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Christianity and So if she's experienced that many others have as well and so in in one debate we can address
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Such a wide variety of subjects that will be so useful in so many different apologetic
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Contexts that obviously I will be very focused upon this and it does fit into very much into the
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PhD program that I announced a few weeks ago in regards to what I was doing It will fit very very well within that context.
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And so the other thing I've got to do is Is learn to return serve low so the people than that can't can't kill me immediately.
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That's the only thing I've really got to Transition in honestly, and I think you know that well,
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I need to be careful anyway, but if there's Really someone that I think the
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Muslim apologists that you've debated And that I've heard debate other people such as Sam Shamoon That everybody uses.
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Dr. Ehrman as their source material and as well as justifying, you know, some of their
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Their beliefs their stances and so forth. I think one I think his name was Carter the gentleman.
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Yes. Uh -huh Phoenix Yes, I think I think used to miss some of his you know, I am material
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Thing well, you know Bart Ehrman has written this great book and so forth and so on so Although we would love to have maybe a warm -up debate with with Professor Carter Maybe you can do that morning, you know while you're eating breakfast
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You know, you could be finishing off an omelet or what be made for you while you're debating him Yeah, but anyway, he didn't return my email.
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I did offer that but nothing came back I didn't expect anything too. I didn't get a response either and so what can you say?
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Well, but you know, I think that this again is one of those Circumstances where if they're using
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Someone as their source material as their proof their proof text if you will and they return back to dr
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Ehrman, this is an opportunity, of course for for for you to to Go ahead and confront the the person that they use as their authority, right and in folks
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I just I'm really looking forward to this again. I do want to thank dr Ehrman for making himself available for this and for working with us to be able to make this happen.
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But yes James we do we do plan on destroying you in tennis. So hopefully your ego will not be
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Feeling that David Wheaton is is probably a little bit of a competitor to so You know
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You know You know if you if you guys put him in the hospital you're gonna be stepping up for the debate then
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Mike Rich that's what you're there for Yeah, that's gonna happen.
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Yeah. Oh sure And I think what you know if by the way if you sign up if you are the first person to sign up for the cruise folks
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We are going to ship you Rich's dog I Just might bring him to Florida Even up the score a little bit
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This should be a great time guy again. We it's okay to have fun. Okay, and we plan on doing the night before everything so serious
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Just to relax and loosen up a little bit. But again to raise money for charity and then we will of course really get digging into the scriptures
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Go deep as we prepare for the debate and All the ministries that are in on this are really looking forward to being a part and looking forward to something
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I really believe is gonna be historical. So folks, we do look forward to seeing you there. Please check out the website
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That's going to be up here at often Omega ministries and as well. I think dr White has put up the links already. Mm -hmm in the blog on the beautiful new website.
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That's indeed. Yes, indeed Yeah, I mean that cost you a lot of money to put that up I know a Lot of time is what it's what it costs
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I mean, but you have set the standard that is a gorgeous website. So we look forward to seeing you there James I guess
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I'll let you go. Okay, and rich once again a pleasure talking to you. All right, man Look forward to seeing you next
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January. All right. Thanks Mike. Take care. Bye. Bye All right. So there you go folks. I've hit drop multiple times and it doesn't want to do anything.
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So We're having technical difficulties today. There you go folks
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We are very much looking forward to this again It's similar to the writing of my books
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The planning of debates we we don't necessarily just want to repeat things over and over again
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We want to try to seek to provide debates that will be useful That are relevant now, but likewise will be useful down the road
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For the for the next decade for the next generation, whatever it might be and Unfortunately, it's in our society today it is the fact that within the quote -unquote
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Academy the writings of Bart Ehrman are taken as the the final word in these matters and You know, everybody said the same thing when when dr.
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Ehrman is speaking of specific facts. He's very very careful You can go back in the archives and I have
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I played for example, dr Ehrman's comments from issues, etc NPR and reviewed the things that he said and if you will listen when he is stating
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Factual data. He is very very careful as to what he says That isn't where the problem is.
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It is the conclusions that he draws from that data that become extremely
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Problematic especially because we are dealing with someone Who is in the technical utilization of the term an apostate and now people?
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I don't even think dr. Ehrman would object to that because clearly the term apostate has a meaning and He's the one who is frequently making reference the fact that he once believed
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X and now he doesn't believe X any longer and on any Linguistic basis, that's what's from a
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Christian perspective an apostate is and He's the one who frequently says hey
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I went to Moody Bible Institute where Bibles our middle name and and he uses that as his background and then that becomes the foundation of His being able to say then
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I went to Princeton and I woke up. I saw the light in essence and Discovered that in my
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Evangelical experience these things have been hidden under the rug. Well, I don't believe that they were actually and they aren't hidden under the rug certainly the existence of textual variation in New Testament has been well known for a long long long long long long time and It's not something that's just hidden under the rug
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And certainly I would be one of the people that would have a very strong standing to be able to say well
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I certainly haven't hidden it under the rug Since 1995 My best -selling book has been on the subject and it lists textual variation after textual variation of textual variation and addresses them and so within the context of Believing in the inspiration authority of the scriptures.
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And so I'm sure that between now and then we'll probably go back over Especially the debate that dr
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Ehrman had with the William Lane Craig because I really think that the assertions he made regarding the resurrection narratives crucifixion narratives things like that Will help us to prepare ourselves for the fundamental worldview that is going to be discussed the clash of worldviews
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That will come out in this particular debate 877 -753 -3341
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I'd like to hear what you think about the big announcement today 877 -753 -3341 if you have
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Comments or questions that you would like to like to bring up. We're gonna take a break then
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We'll go to your phone calls 877 -753 -3341 Hello everyone.
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This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
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Thank you Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be
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James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned
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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see
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The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?
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The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring
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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org
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And welcome back to the dividing line on the day of the big announcement The debate coming up January 21st against dr.
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Bart Ehrman University, North Carolina Chapel Hill Head of the Department of Religion author of numerous books lost
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Christianity's Jesus apocalyptic prophet a new millennium orthodox Christian scripture misquoting
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Jesus and Others as well taking your phone calls that start with Ken in Atlanta.
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Hi Ken. How you doing? Hi, dr. White. How's it going? Ken great.
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This is my first time. I've listened to you by archive for years All righty, and I appreciate all your ministry
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Really enjoyed for years all the Roman Catholic debates, especially my question has to do with Islam and history and Then you've been doing a great job
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I Guess my big question for years has been how do we?
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understand The fact that when you read and I don't know if you've come across this yet or what when you read histories of Eastern Christianity Mm -hmm the claim the the common statement is that the
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Non -calcedonian churches in the east like today the Coptic Church the Jacobite Syrian Church and the other
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Non -calcedonian churches Nestorian churches the claim that Muslims make and also church history books say is that these communities?
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were oppressed under the Justinian laws and everything else that we're trying to enforce the calcedonian creed the
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The two natures of Christ and that they welcomed the Arab invaders as liberators from the
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Byzantine oppressors and we heard this in the debate that Nader Ahmed Was he was that was one of his points against Sam Shamoon?
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Yeah, I don't know why it's a point What's what's the relevance of the fact that the
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Byzantine? Empire as it was crumbling at that time had utilized
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Inappropriate mechanisms for trying to enforce theological paradigms,
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I mean How is that relevant to anything? Okay, what I'm good. I guess what I'm and I don't know how to phrase this maybe well or whatever what
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I'm trying to Figure out for years is whenever because I've been witnessing the
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Muslims for 25 years And when you disciple them and you start teaching them about the
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Trinity and the deity of Christ It's necessary to get into Church history and homoous the oz and hoopla stasis and Persona Try unit off all these
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Latin and Greek terms and the fog just comes up over their eyes, you know And well,
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I obviously don't start there. I've written a book called the Forgotten Trinity great book and I think you start with with the biblical foundations you you outline the the realities of what the biblical parameters are and then if there are questions concerning the outworking and the
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Exact applications of elements of that then you can go into those things But I I don't know that it's necessary to do so with a brand -new convert or something like that I think that's establishing the biblical parameters first and foremost is certainly a lengthy enough situation and then
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But I'm not certain of the relationship between the Byzantine Empire calcium definition
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Islam and things like that as I'm missing the connection between the first part of your question and then the second part
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Right, and that's probably my weakness I guess
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I'm trying it whenever and I agree with you and that's what I do. I'd love to see your book
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Translated into both Arabic and Farsi the language that I know is Farsi. I don't know
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Arabic Although I can pick out words because Farsi has 40 % Arabic words in it, right?
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We I always start with what you're talking about the biblical data But then eventually the former
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Muslims always are going they naturally unless we teach them They naturally and I've seen this for 25 years.
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They naturally are modalist Without good teaching well, yeah,
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I I think most evangelicals Fall into modalism without good teaching so I don't know that really has anything to do with specifically with with with Muslims other than certainly they have a strong propensity towards Tawheed and You know monotheism and things like that but still
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I I'm uncertain of the historical relationship to to the question in regards to the
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Byzantine Empire and things like that, right my the only way I could possibly answer the question is is the same way that I did in the book and that is you you
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Start with the biblical parameters and then say well What were the issues that were struggled with?
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to try to keep from of to from Violating those biblical parameters in church history and but those things always have to be subsumed under the context of The the biblical revelation and the supremacy of biblical revelation over any type of church history issues, so That'd be the best thing
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I could give to you there Ken and we've got lots of folks calling in today. Let me put Ken there and let me go on to Mike in Florida.
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Hi Mike. Hey, dr. White. How are you today? I'm doing good. Oh, it's excellent. Hey, I just wanted to Say how excited
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I am. I am to hear about the upcoming debate. You are in Florida. So that helps doesn't it? Oh, absolutely. I'm only about two hours out.
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So if it was so if it's in Seattle, you wouldn't be quite as excited Well, I would be excited. I'd be bummed I'd be thinking gosh the odds are you know going out there is just slim to none, right?
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I hear you. Anyway, just very excited about that and I vote when I heard that I was just really You know cranked up because I thought you know,
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I've been thinking last couple years I've seen Bart's books, you know coming out. You've all over the place. I'm thinking man.
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Would it be great to have? Dr. White debate this guy When I heard that I was just like man, that was just awesome.
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Well good. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that It's gonna be an exciting time. I'm in the meantime since you are going to be debating
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Bart Ehrman, what would you suggest as far as like a guy like me or many others on that note as far as Getting us prepared to think about you know, the issues that are going to be brought up What kind of what books would you refer to?
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Well, you know, the funny thing is one of the standard books in the field
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It was Metzger's work. And of course Ehrman helped him to edit the fourth edition and That has been one of the things that's caused a lot of people to take note of some of the changes that Resulted as a part of that The the question is going to be rather interesting
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Obviously there are going to be specific texts and there are specific texts that dr. Ehrman has focused upon For example, he seems to have a real strong concern about whether Jesus was angry for example
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Even though other texts that do not have any Variations in them do indicate that Jesus experienced anger.
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I for some reason he feels that that's inappropriate, but We will be looking at texts.
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I'm sure the John 753 311 text will come up in regards to women taking an adultery because that is very much prominent in his thinking
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But the the real issues isn't so much like I said when when Ehrman addresses textual critical information
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He's generally solid in at least reporting what the facts are. The the question goes back to what he said
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That really I remember exactly where I was in my living room when I was listening to this interview with Todd Wilkin on issues, etc
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When he made those statements saying well, you know If God inspired this then then there wouldn't be any textual variations.
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There wouldn't only be any any alleged contradictions I'm sure he's could probably discuss that But there wouldn't be any textual variations and and I obviously
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I can at least understand Someone saying that the originals would not contradict themselves if it was inspired
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Okay, that makes sense. But when he went beyond that to saying there would be no textual variation. I just I stopped whatever in world
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I was doing at the time and Really tuned in because I'm like, wait a minute. What what what possible ground?
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Can he offer for this idea? Because when you really think about what he's saying in essence
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He's saying that there could not have been a revelation from God prior to the computer in essence unless it was in one place chiseled in stone and could not be copied or Communicated to any place outside of that one particular geographical location,
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I guess is the the only Possible way that that there could have been a revelation other than that He he has admitted every single document of antiquity has undergone textual variation in its in its
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Promulgation over time he admits the New Testament is is particularly Pure in this matter
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He's made those statements and of course, I'll be quoting those statements. I'll have them on my little gizmo, but It's quoting back to a previous debate in 2001 with Peter Stravinsky's.
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But anyway so I The big issue is not going to be so much
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Theories of textual criticism or Byzantine versus Alexandrian or anybody who says that none of those categories are meaningful anymore
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Any of that kind of stuff? The real issue is upon what basis do you in essence build a case that says well, hey
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Inspiration means that that God's either going to turn everybody who copies his inspired text into an automatic writer
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So that he becomes the ancient equivalent of a Xerox machine or he's going to cause anyone who tries to make a change in the text is going to cause them to Either not be able to write the words they want to write or he's gonna fry them with an electrical bolt from heaven or you know, whatever what's what's the ground upon which you can make such in such an argument and That's much more of an epistemological issue.
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And I think it's much more of an issue that goes into Why has Bart Ehrman adopted the position that he has adopted?
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I mean, is it really true the textual variation was completely ignored at Moody Bible Institute. That's what he says
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I know people who were in class with Bart Ehrman At Moody Bible Institute who say nope.
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I was in classes where it was discussed. He just wasn't paying attention so You know, what's what's really going on here is is is the question?
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I think some of that came up in the William Lane Craig debate But that's where it's gonna be focused on so I'm not really sure what to suggest because I don't know of books
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I honestly had never encountered anyone who was a serious scholar in the field who had come to conclusion that well
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Certainly if inspiration is true, there can't be textual variation that God would somehow I mean from my perspective
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That really Misunderstands the entire concept of the of the early Christians and the fact they wanted to get the text out and they wanted
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Layman to possess these texts and they didn't have a problem with business people making copies of their text and all these other things
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I see that as the mechanism that God used to protect the text there could never have been a Christian Uthman there could not have been someone who came along and and created these wholesale additions and editing of the text and so on so forth, but He takes a different perspective and that's where the challenge is really is really going to be
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I really doubt that it's going to be on What the textual data is or even so much a difference of opinion between himself and myself as to the proper?
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means of textual criticism everything that I have heard and of course as I said I have all of his books sitting next to me now and I will be an expert in all of his writings by January, but I Cuz that's just how
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I do debates But I don't think that's really where the focus is going to be that the real question is going to be why do you do you?
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and I both look at the same data and You in essence say to all ancient religions, and this is an important aspect
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He's not just saying this to to New Testament Christianity, but he and of course he has very
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He really loves to promote you know the Gnostic Christians and things like that And call them
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Gnostic Christians But the real issue is how can we both look at the same data? and we we come to completely different conclusions as to the possibility of whether God has spoken and whether he could speak and by this this means and That really is
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I think going to become the focus it needs to be the focus of of the discussion So I think that's a great point because even with my own family in discussing biblical issues this does come up mm -hmm as a as a point of debate and You know because there's they're kind of like well, you know there's only once again
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They take a very liberal stance. You know what we believe parts of the Bible are inspired, right? And so you know you have to kind of break things down and get to some things that are a bit more
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Sophisticated so to speak you try to keep it on a very simple level, but the eyes glossed over They want to change the subject so well.
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Yeah, you're exactly right, and we have to think presuppositional II here There are we're dealing with folks who this kind of presentation
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I don't think would have had the traction that it has today only a few decades or generations ago
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It really does require Someone to to really fall into the well the scholars said it therefore it must be true category
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Because I think most people would actually look at and go wait a minute all right. Here's a scholar He knows a lot about textual variation and the various text types and and the types of errors that scribes are liable to make and So on so forth yeah that that's all true
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But he's going beyond his area of expertise here They need to recognize that that to go from textual variation exists.
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These are the kinds of textual variants We discover these are the kinds of manuscripts going beyond that to saying well if the text was inspired
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Then it would have these Characteristics which includes a lack of textual variation. That's a completely different area epistemologically speaking from being a textual scholar, and I think that's where he needs to be challenged and unfortunately a lot of people
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Especially who don't know anything about this particular field all they hear is PhD in such -and -such a subject and therefore oh he must have thought these things through he must you know and that's
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Unfortunately what happens in so much? Of what's taking place in our culture today is you get these people on the air?
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And you know as long as they are part of the Academy what they say cannot possibly be challenged even if they're addressing things that Actually have nothing to do with their specific area of training look at Richard Dawkins Yeah, he's a biologist for crying out loud, but now he's been in essence elevated the position of high priest of atheism and You know and he gets away with it because there is a real lack of discernment and critical thinking on the part of many
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Unfortunately now hey so far as is known the debate between Dr.. Craig and Bart now.
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That's only in transcript form. I haven't seen oh, no. It's no. I've got the mp3s Oh, do you really oh? Yeah, okay?
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I wish I could tell you got them, but I have become a bit of an mp3 hound and so me and Google found him someplace or Someone sent them to me, but I don't think so.
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I think I I think me and Google found him and So because I remember last summer
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Specifically writing and listening to that so they are out there someplace. They are on the Google hound on that one
48:30
Yeah, that's the way to track them down all right very good. Okay. Thanks, Mike And hopefully we'll see you at the Coral Ridge for the truth to transform
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America conference on what April It's in April, and I will be speaking on Islam on Saturday, and then right after my session there is a panel discussion with Waleed Ferris Spencer myself it should be quite interesting excellent great all right.
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Take care. We'll see you then. Thanks, okay, bye -bye All right, so we have a happy Floridian, so we go we go from the happy Floridian to poor
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Lawrence who's in California Hi, Lawrence. How you doing? Actually was snowing yesterday on the coast which is very rare, but that is really we are doing fine
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Some of the questions were answered. I have a comment on On your your vlog if I can use that word because I see a connection in terms of your work dealing with with the the text with the the canon issue and with Islam because obviously all those things deal with authority and And God's Revelation, and and there's obviously a pattern
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I do have to Maybe challenge a little bit your the final screen on your answer to Gary Machuta where you?
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Mentioned that origin Falls in a way in this category of People that would defend the the
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Hebrew canon is that was that your intention to convey that impression? I? Don't know which one you're referring to origin makes reference to the
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Hebrew canon of 22 text Rufinus then follows him with that, but he often origin
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I Do not consider to be an orthodox writer in in any way shape or form and so he utilized all sorts of resources
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But he makes reference to the fact that the Hebrews had a 22 book canon, and he gives that accurately, but he certainly didn't limit himself
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Even to that at that point in fact he didn't really limit himself to almost anything as far as that's concerned so It was
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I don't remember what screen you're talking about But I believe that was the citation from someone else as I recall just simply listing the early writers who were aware of the fact that the canon that is found in in Roman Catholicism today is differs fundamentally from that that was held by the
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Palestinian Jews and in fact I would argue by the Alexandrian Jews. There's no evidence of philo had a broader canon either
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Yes, but my point was simply that You seem to agree in a way with with Jeremy Trudeau that Athanasius when you write in in his special letter is
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View about a canon seems to have evolved actually from from before and that seems to be your no
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I didn't know I didn't say no no no I didn't say that I I said there's a much easier way to interpret
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Athanasius than to accuse him of either evolution or self contradiction I said even if that were the case even if he in fact had
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Held a different view than he held the end of his life It wouldn't be relevant to what Steve Ray said Steve Ray said that Jerome was alone and unique in Holding the can that he did and that everybody before him it all held the canister you do to our conicals canonicals
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And that's just simply not true. I don't know any Roman Catholics who make that claim
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I don't other than Steve Ray And I don't know why Gary Machute is trying to defend him other than just simply to try to Rescue is his reputation or something
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But the fact the matter is this has always been an issue of division And I have said many times that in essence
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Those who knew the most about the Old Testament and knew the most about the Old Testament people
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Which according to Romans chapter 3 were the people to whom the oracles of God had been committed Were the ones who were the most likely to not hold the position that Rome eventually dogmatically defined in 1546
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And that those who had the least knowledge were the ones who were more likely to hold that position
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There would be exceptions, but that is the general rule as you look down through church history Jerome's view influenced many many people not only through the
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Middle Ages but all the way up to the time of the Council of Trent including Cardinal Cayetan and Cardinal Jimenez and so on and so forth.
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So all I was saying is that there has been the idea that there has only been one view and Jerome was alone and unique and then
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Luther just ripped these books out of the Bible all the rest of stuff Which is very commonly heard is quite simply absurd.
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It's not not just naive. It's absurd because These people know better In a way there is an evolution from say
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Origen and Justin who would see the Septuagint as inspired and would tend to view then, you know the broad
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Septuagint which they used as their Bible to say as you move towards Athanasius and Perhaps Jerome then the view evolved and tends to move away from that and adopt a more pro -Hebrew position
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Well, I don't know if there's any direct connection especially
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The entire subject of what the Septuagint contained it did not contain and The the development of the
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Septuagint from the time of the origins of at least the first versions of there was no single
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Septuagint I the the story that that is of course circulated about the 70 elders and and All coming up the exact same translation and stuff like that is is
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I think fictional It's it's very obvious that while the Pentateuch for example was a very high quality translation
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That others the book of the books the Old Testament weren't clearly not Translated by the same people as the as the
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Pentateuch was Jerome for example. I'm sorry Jeremiah Differs greatly in its textual platform in the
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Septuagint then from the Hebrew Some of the minor prophets are really poorly translated and and there's all sorts of variations in those those first hundreds of years and and our trend our manuscripts come from after the
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Christian era as far as the Septuagint is concerned and so Just simply assuming that the subject contains certain things
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Especially we don't have evidence from Philo and others that they that they did is is somewhat problematic
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So there's all sorts of issues along those lines But then you have you have Melito Sardis and and very clear indications of what his viewpoints were
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I don't know that you can draw a direct line from Melito to Athanasius from Athanasius to Jerome or any of those things
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They're all influenced by a number of different factors in their particular context. So the idea of evolution
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I Mean all we know is that's a German and Augustine Are at loggerheads over what the textual platform for the
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Old Testament should be Athenea Augustine is is clearly Wedded to the the
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Greek Septuagint at that point and when Jerome translates from the Hebrew he he objects to that and that causes all sorts
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Difficulties and and things like that as well so there were there were differences of opinion and I that's why
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I say the the best way to Determine the Old Testament canon is to go to the Lord Jesus himself and to the
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Apostles and to ask the question They knew of these books. Did they quote them as scripture? They use them as scripture and the answer is they did not and that is the most
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I think weighty question weighty Material that can be cited in this particular instance
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I'm dealing with Steve Ray's false statements about church history and that's the context in which the
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The vlogs should be viewed and should be interpreted there. So thank you Lawrence for your call today and for everybody who has called in today and Especially in regards to the subject of the upcoming debates.
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Thank you for the quote -unquote Waiting for the big announcement We wanted to make it on January 1st.
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We want to make it on January 10th But hey, you know, we made it when we could make it hit the blog you'll be able to see the links there and the later today the pricing information will be posted and I do hope that those of you who have been asking going.
56:43
Hope I'd really like to go to something I hope it's something big. Well, it's gonna be big and we're gonna look forward to having you with us coming up Exactly one year from now you say that's a long time.
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Well, you know what? It takes a while to plan these things. So we hope you'll start planning to be with us one year from now
56:59
Thanks for listening. We'll see you Thursday. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
58:06
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