April 11, 2017 Show with Paul Flynn on “Lies William Paul Young Believes About God (A Critique of Young’s ‘Lies We Believe About God'”

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I am delighted to have back on the program Paul Flynn, founder of Megiddo Films, Megiddo Radio and Megiddo TV of Ireland and we are discussing Lies William Paul Young Believes About God, a critique of William Paul Young's Lies We Believe About God and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Paul Flynn.

Thank you so much Chris for having me on the program. Yes, if any book title begged an answer, speak for yourself when Paul Young titles his book Lies We Believe About God, but if you could tell us something about this author before we even go into his book Lies We Believe About God and of course many of our listeners will recognize the name William Paul Young from the book and movie that is currently in theaters, The Shack, but if you could explain something about William Paul Young.

Sure, well.

William Paul Young rose to prominence back in, what was it, about 2007 with the book The Shack, which started off a couple copies. Originally it was a family and friends and then kind of a lot of people know the story how it became an international bestseller, but a lot of people aren't really aware of the theology that underlines The Shack.

Now some of the things that would be discussed in the book that we're going to critique in this program, Lies We Believe About God, might seem like a departure from the novel The Shack, but unfortunately it's not.

What really is in this book is really just confirming, I would say, a lot of sometimes maybe things that were hinted towards in The Shack and also doctrines that I think were pretty explicit in The Shack, such as universalism.

William Paul Young has, ever since he's become a full-time author, ever since The Shack was massively, I think he's like, you know, it seems like he's been waiting for this opportunity for the movie to come out to release his first non-fiction book.

The other books he released prior, called Eve, Crossroads, so he's released three novels prior to this and this is his first non-fiction. Now it's interesting that he seems, I don't know if he's breaking ranks within people who would have worked on The Shack, like Brad Cummings and Wayne Cummings, and I can't remember the other publisher and author, but you have kind of, they didn't seem to want to say, hey we're universalists, or William Paul Young is universalist, but it's explicitly clear in this book.

There's no kind of denying it any longer. What can you say about the man the man grew up in? He was raised in a Christian home, he knows Christian lingo, but the thing is you have to be very, very careful with William Paul Young.

He knows how to speak to Christians, he knows how to say certain buzzwords that will kind of make most audiences happy that he's orthodox, and he wants to convince everybody that he's orthodox. He's desperate to do that, but the thing about it is he also now seems to be more and more desperate to share his own theology more and more, and I think he's probably going to do more as time.

Goes on. Yeah, and you actually thought that his previous book, The Shack, was so disturbing that you actually produced a documentary film on it. Tell us something about that documentary film and.

Where our listeners can view that. Sure, the movie can be viewed at megiddofilms .org, that's m-e-g-i-d-d-o-films .org, and the movie can watch for free. I made a decision a number of years ago that I wasn't going to charge any money for the movie, so it can be watched for free, it can be copied if people want to do that, it can be borne to DVDs, people can do whatever they like with it, just as long as they don't charge money for it.

So that can be viewed for free on YouTube, and the movie, the full title is The Shack, It's Dangerous Theology and Error, and I don't know, it's been seen, it kind of shot up recently, the amount of views.

The last time I checked, it was seen about 276 ,000 times, something like that. If you even type in the word The Shack, it's one of the first few YouTube videos to pop up, which I was most delighted that that was the case.

Oh yeah, praise God for that. I know, I was like, I was really, I was like, praise the Lord, it was an answer to prayer, and when I remember, I kind of, I'd heard things about the movie coming out, I'd heard so many actors who were working on it, talking about it, and it seemed to be finally in the works, and I was hoping for a long, long time that it would never reach the light of day.

It seemed to be having a lot of trouble for years coming to the big screen, but eventually, it was Tim McGraw, it was actually a video of Tim McGraw, he was talking, I think it was two years ago, and he was talking about The Shack and saying that he's going off filming it, so I was like, okay, they're filming it now, and that's when I kind of went, okay, I've read this, I've seen some prominent Christian leaders, if you could use those terms, promote the book and endorse the book, and I talked about it on the radio show, and it got to the point where, I don't think people had seen how heretical it was, so it just became a massive, quotations from The Shack, also from what would be called a companion work to The Shack, a book called The Shack Revisited, by a man by the name of C. Baxter Kruger, and he basically wrote a book that was endorsed by Paul Young himself, saying that if you want to understand the theology of The Shack, this book is for you.

So he endorsed it, he wrote a foreword to it, and he basically put a seal of approval upon it, you know, like saying in one sense, oh, the book is fiction, but this is the kind of system, if you call it a systematic theology, accompanying the book, it's called The Shack Revisited, and it's explicitly clear that C. Baxter Kruger is universalist as well, so it's much clearer than the book, that book was released back in 2012, and I just knew, it was back, it was about last year, I think I'd been emailing you or something like that, and I don't know, I kind of, I felt like the Lord really wanted me to work on it, I felt really burdened to get it out as quickly as possible, because I knew the movie was coming out, and I said, okay, let's give it some legs before, you know, Lionsgate released their trailers, and hopefully it can be one of the first ones to pop up in the YouTube.

Search. Now, the main problems with The Shack, as you've already mentioned, the previous book, were the aberrant teaching, heretical teaching of universalism, universal salvation, there is no warning of eternal damnation, and so on, and also a very aberrant view of the Trinity,.

Am I correct? Yeah, there's, it's one of those books that you almost, it's like, where do you start? There's just so many problems and so many errors. I've been listening to some Christian radio recently, just to kind of, maybe just to, you know, interact with other ideas and arguments people are putting forward, I was listening to a Christian radio program, at least a professor of the Christian radio program a couple of months ago, and it said, you know, the host was saying, oh, well, I watched the entire movie, this was kind of a pre-screening of the movie, and he heard about the controversy about this, and then he said at the end of it, that he couldn't understand what all the fuss was about.

And it says a lot about the Church now, that a large section of it, I don't want to say the majority or whatever, but a large section of the professing Church doesn't understand enough theology to understand what's wrong with this, and to see the difference between this and a Pilgrim's Progress, or something like that, that they're worlds apart.

Now, just to deal with the trend, yeah?

One of the things they have in common is that William Paul Young should be in prison for writing his book. I'm only kidding. What's that? I said William Paul Young should be in prison for writing his book, unlike Bunyan, who went to prison unjustly.

They got the wrong guy. Yeah, some of the problems in the shack, just to go back, just by kind of, there was what I call, at least what I call a kind of semi-modalism. Modalism is where you kind of, you don't make a distinction between the three members of the Trinity.

Pure modalism would be, in one place, you've got the Father, that he puts on different hats, basically. One time he's got the Father, then he manifests himself as God the Son, and another time he manifests himself as the Holy Spirit.

Now, people might not see that in the book, because, yes, they have been, you know, the Trinity, the persons of the Trinity have been separated, but I'll just give you one example where this is seen. For example, there's nail scars in Papa's wrists, and that basically is telling us that God the Father was on the cross as well.

Yeah, that's the heresy of patraipassionism.

Exactly, yeah, and you just have this kind of, you know, like, there's just, there's so many areas you could go into that I don't even know what people like about this. I keep hearing time and time again from Christian, famous Christians, well-known people who profess the Christian faith, and they say, they say, okay, it's not perfect, they keep saying that, it's not perfect, and then they say, what is?

And then they say, there's great truths being told. I'm curious to know what these truths are. You know, that God is a God of love, well, the Universalists say the same thing, and according to the shack, God cannot act apart from love.

He cannot act in wrath, he cannot act in judgment, that is basically the implication of this. There's a lot of, there's a lot of errors, even in the Trinity, which is something that some people claim is a strength.

Another part, it talks about the Incarnation, and this is on page 99 of the shack, it said, when we three spoke ourselves into existence as the Son of God, we became fully human. So, not God the Son becoming human, but we became human.

So, again, you know, and that's why I had to make a movie. Normally, I would do a quick radio show, and okay, bad issues dealt with, but I couldn't, in full breadth, show exactly how bad this is, and I actually, I might even do a quick video showing, you know, maybe, you know, maybe a 10 -15 minute video in the future, on lies we believe about God, just the quotations about it, and William Paul Young's false gospel, and Lord willing, we can go through that and show exactly what he believes about sin, exactly what he believes about the gospel, how he calls God a cosmic abuser, the God of the Bible, that's why he says he rejects sin, he's a clear universalist, and his view of hell is more akin to purgatory.

Yes, I think that people, I think Christians,.

Or professing Christians, or a combination of the both, they sigh with relief when Hollywood produces anything that has any kind of hat tipped, in a positive way, to God in general, and, and, you know, some general basic proverbial truths of life, and things that we could pick here and there from the Bible.

They're just so happy that it's not another slasher flick, or some kind of very perverse pornographic film, so they go overboard in giving accolades to nonsense that, in some ways, you wonder what is more harmful to the viewer, the slasher flick, or the, or the theological heretical flick, theologically heretical flick.

Yeah. And by the way, when you did the documentary, who were the participants who examined the shack? Sorry, what'd you say there, sir? Who were the participants that you had examining the shack and critiquing it, other than yourself, in your documentary?

How'd you mean, like, from a point of view? Well,.

Like, did I interview people in the documentary, you mean?

Yes, yeah, you had some different folks critiquing it, did you not?

Well, no, actually, just, well, what I had was, I was playing clips from different sermons, clips from people I, you know, have a lot of respect for, and things like that.

Yeah, that's basically what I meant, that's what I meant.

Yeah, they weren't directly talking about the shack itself, but basically aspects that were, say, problematic, and the feminization of the church, and at the start, audio clip from, for example, Jeff Pollard, and he was talking in some part of his sermon about feminism, and how we want to relate to God, and how we call the Holy Spirit, East, or Her, and it fit really well in, but you see, like, I mean, like, it's actually pretty hard.

Like, most, if I talk to most theologically sound people, they've never heard of the shack. As soon as I mentioned, like, what's that?

Yeah, they have too much time on their, they don't have enough time to read things like that, to add to their...

No, they don't. I have too much time on my hands, I think. Yeah, I mean, like, the thing is, yeah, like, like, the only major critique that I've been able to find that has been written was a book by James B. DeYoung, and it's called Burning Down the Shack, it was released a number of years ago, and James B. DeYoung claims he knew William Paul Young years ago, while he, years before the book was released, even, and that they were in a kind of a Christian think-tank together, and at that time, William Paul Young embraced what he called universal reconciliation.

This was years before the shack was even released. Now, I know, but a year ago, you know, a year and a half ago, so James B. DeYoung has, I've been unable to find an email from him, but he wrote a book and in critiquing it, he is, whereas, you know, he's a seminary professor, I think, at the moment, but he knew him years ago, and he says that William Paul Young produced 103 page, just get the page here in front of me, you have the book in front of me, 103 page single-spaced, and then he said, Paul surprisingly presented his embrace of universal reconciliation.

It is the Christian form of universalism, and this was back around 2003, 2004, about four years before the shack was even written.

Well, I'll give our email address for anybody interested in writing in a question for our guest, Paul Flynn. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and if you go to the Iron Sharpens Iron website after the program, you can also hear other interviews that we've done with Paul Flynn, including our interview critiquing the shack, and of course, you want to watch that documentary.

By the way, I did see the documentary. It was excellent. I was just describing the contributors in an improper way, that they weren't critiquing the shack, but you had them included in the documentary, the other speakers that you had there, and it was a really powerful documentary, and I strongly urge everybody to go to megiddofilms .org, and it's a good way, I think, to evangelize loved ones who may be interested in the shack.

Some people who are not Christians like to have some kind of a religious experience by going to things like this, and they pat themselves on the back that they've done their good deed for the day by going to a film that has some kind of religious or spiritual underpinnings, and this would be a good way to watch the documentary by Paul Flynn on the shack with them, if you can, or at least tell them to go to megiddofilms .org and have them watch it, and then you could use that as an icebreaker to evangelize them with the truth by exposing the error in this, or having them witness the error being exposed by Paul Flynn.

But just when you thought it was bad enough with the shack, now this new book, Lies We Believe About God, has come out, and you were very eager to expose this book as being dangerous. Who does, or what does, I should say, William Paul Young mean by the word we?

Why is we believe about God? Is he speaking about the church in general, people in general, whether they're Christians or not? Who is he speaking about?

Well, I think it's, I don't know if he's being very, very specific, probably more we as the church, we in general, or people, it's really just generally held belief that people have about God, that he wants to philosophize, like, I mean, there's no exposition really going on here in the entire book.

The only thing that kind of approaches it is at the very, very end of the book, and we've got a kind of a section called Akatina, which is a list of lots of verses that he thinks proves universalism. Anything that talks about chosen before the foundation of the world, that we have been chosen him, and he thinks that is every single human being, or everybody's ever been created.

And I also have to kind of ask the question, does that include the devil? He's not clear on that. But anyway, and he doesn't even mention the devil, actually, at any single point. But if you look at William Paul Young, when you read through his book, he's got, like, every single chapter is called a, quote-unquote, lie that we believe about God.

There's 28 of them, and a lot of what we call is called a kind of therapeutic deism, where you can shape God after your own image, who's going to make you feel better, where you're not a bad person anymore.

Every single point you see, William Paul Young can use the term sin, he can use the term gospel, he can use the term the cross, he can use the term hell, but he has redefined all these terms. And it takes a long time.

He gives you a little piece of information here, a little piece of information there. For example, it's not until probably near the end of, well, he's pretty clear at the beginning of the book as well, but at the end of the book he's explicitly here what he believes is sin.

I'll just give you a little, this is near the end of the book, page 229, and he says, right, he refutes the, or at least claims to refute the idea that God is looking for any moral perfection. God has no standards.

God is never displeased with us, this kind of idea. Just kind of always bringing God down to a human level, just as if, you know, like a father is never, you know, a child messes up, well, it's okay, there's no problem, we love you anyway, and you're always going to be our child.

And these anecdotes are kind of all the way throughout the book. But he says here, he says, there is a truth about who you are. God's proclamation about a, quote, very good creation, unquote, is the truest about you.

That very good creation is the form or origin of you. The truth of who you are in your being. Sin, then, is anything that negates or diminishes or misrepresents the truth of who you are. It's all about you.

It's, you know, it's kind of like, you know, Rick Warren or something, saying it's not about you, but it is. No matter how pretty or ugly it is. So he's saying, right, if you don't see how amazing you are, if you don't see how special you are, that's what Satan is.

And then he says, he presents at the end of the page, and what does the truth of your being look like? And he gives a big long list. He says, you are patient, you are kind, you are good, you are humble, you are forgiving, you are a truth teller, you are trustworthy, and on and on.

And I think people can get the idea there. Basically, you are, his argument is, you're creating the image of God, and therefore you must be good. So you, one wonders what he thinks.

About the most despicable, unrepentant serial killers and rapists and child molesters who get hold of this book. What does he, you know, what does he, and those like him, what do they think about those people?

I mean, do they actually, are they actually trying to convey the message to every single person without question? I mean, if Hitler was still alive, could he be reading this and say, wow, I am good after all?

Of course, in the German accent. I mean, this just seems.

Mind-boggling to me. Yeah, and it is. And to be honest, it takes a lot of kind of just sitting down and really thinking about, like, William Paul Young is, he's an intellectual of sorts. And to be honest, he's very, I don't know what you call it, a form of sophistry, kind of, the arguments sound great, but they don't really support anything.

And he kind of argues out both ways. So you can almost say anything, you know, one place, you know, the shack isn't theology, another place, it is theology. But I mean, the interesting that you brought up serial killers, because C. Baxter Kruger wrote the book, The Shack Revisited, which is basically a companion theology of the shack, writes about Mrs. Killer.

Mrs. Killer, this is the little girl who was killed in the book. Right, right. I even, I forgot about that connection, actually, when I said serial killers. So he deals with that. He deals with the most, the vilest people.

And yes, they're all included. And the thing about it is, I'm just trying to get the quote in front of me here. C. Baxter Kruger says, Missy's murder is not going to skip through the pearly gates, playing with ladybugs.

To begin with, heaven is where the whole trinity dwells. An evil has hijacked and so horribly twists and misuses this man, avoids the light at all costs. While the murder is forgiven, loved, and accepted, he is embraced and included.

He does not know it by any stretch of the imagination. And such unknowing leaves him reeling in pain and trapped in the clutches of darkness. He belongs to the father, son, and spirit, always has, always will.

But he has given himself to participate in darkness. He acts out of the light of the evil one and the grotesque meaninglessness, wreaking havoc in the lives of all around. And it can continue. That's C. Baxter Kruger now.

Now, but it's very much the same idea that people can get saved in hell. William Paul Young came out and basically said it, where is it, which, page 181, just trying to get in front of me, and I won't go through all of it here, but there's a chapter called Death is More Powerful Than God, and that is this idea of a lie that we believe about God, and he includes a conversation he has with a friend of his, who then, he says, and this is what he says about his friend after he has this conversation, and he's, his friend is basically saying, no, you can't get saved after, or choose, choose God, basically, as he puts it in the very Armenian way, but after you die.

And then his friend, he said, you see, my friend loves me, truly loves me. Since what I was proposing could not possibly be right, I was potentially a danger, not only to myself, but to many others as well.

You may feel the same way. And that's what he says about it. But basically, how would I put it? He says, personally, I do believe that the idea that we lose our ability to choose at the event of physical death is a significant lie.

And then he goes on and explains it a bit further, but basically, he's saying, and this is in case anyone wants to check out this, the quotations, page 185, page 186, and page 187 of Lies We Believe About God, he is saying that it's a lie, because he's saying God has preserved our ability to choose right up until death, so why wouldn't he preserve our ability to choose afterwards?

And he ultimately believes, well, everybody's accepted love and embrace, and eventually, kind of like what, you know, Rob Bell said, love wins. Love's going to win them over, and you'll eventually see how fond God is of this person.

It's interesting how you wonder how they would exegete Jesus' own words when he said about Judas. It would have been better for him never to have been born. So where does that come into.

Play with that kind of theology? I'm not saying that they would do this, and they would probably run a million miles away from such a verse, but if I was to hazard a guess, I would say that they would say that this is psychological pain, that he would go through such psychological pain, it would be, it's so horrible he's using hyperbole.

Sadly, I've kind of, he kind of gets kind of predictable after a while, because anything that talks about hell, and the way William Paul Young and others like him view hell is not in the wrath of God.

It is, he describes it as God's relentless affection that is seeking to eradicate any lie we believe about ourself. When William Paul Young was at a, I can't remember the name of Nicky, you know Nicky Gumbel?

He was part of the Alpha Course a number of years ago.

I don't know him, but that name sounds vaguely familiar.

Yeah, he was at his church anyways, it's on YouTube, and he was describing, basically he says, I believe in a God of fury. But he says he believes that that fury is that kind of God's relentless affection seeking out every single one of us.

And then he gave the example of, say, if his daughter was a methamphetamine addict or something like that, and that if he loves his daughter, and he gave a very kind of emotional plea, then saying, if I love my daughter, I'm going to try to eradicate that, you know, cancer or that addiction, and I'm going to seek to eradicate that.

That's the way he views God. He sees God as any reference to fire or fury or anything like that is seen in such a way that it is to eradicate any lie we believe about ourself. Because that's what sin is, according to him, that you don't see how special and amazing you are.

It's like listening to Joel Stein, to be honest.

Yeah, and it reminds me of something Robert Shuler wrote years ago, and I'm paraphrasing, but it was something to the effect of that the worst sin that Christians commit is to inform other people of their lost and sinful condition, when obviously they're not going to cry out for forgiveness if they don't understand what kind of condition they're in.

It's absolutely absurd. But before we go to the break, I am going to read a question for you. It's actually very lengthy and contains a couple of parts. I'm not only going to read it to you, but I'm going to email you this listener's series of questions, and then when we come back from the break, you could go through it.

This is Joe in Slovenia. He says, My question about this topic has to do with those pastors, theologians, apologists, etc., who equate the Shaq book and movie with works like Pilgrim's Progress, Chronicles of Narnia, etc.

They seem to fail to understand that while the genre may be the same or similar, those works and others don't present God in heretical ways. They don't teach heterodox doctrines. Why is it that we have such a low level of discernment among the visible church on these types of questions?

Thanks for sharpening our focus today. And you can answer that when we return from the break, and I will also email you this question, question slash comment, so you could look it over during the break.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA, and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

Perhaps you disagree with your own pastor or someone that you care about on this book or on this subject or some other subject that's related to our discussion, and you'd rather not identify yourself, that's completely fine.

And by the way, we welcome questions from those who actually love The Shack, love the movie, and you want to explain why. Whatever your opinion is on this or if you are just totally unfamiliar with the subject, and of course we're not only talking about The Shack, we're primarily talking about the book Lies We Believe About God now.

We've already addressed The Shack on another interview with Paul Flynn, but The Lies We Believe About God is the latest book by William Paul Young, who also authored The Shack. But we're going to be back, God willing, right after these messages, so don't go away.

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Juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ. Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world-class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world. Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above. For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333. That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org. That's liyfc .org.

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is Paul Flynn, founder of Megiddo Films, Megiddo Radio, and Megiddo TV.

We are discussing Lies William Paul Young Believes About God, a critique of Young's Lies We Believe About God, his latest book. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.